Zach Diamond  0:02  
Music. Welcome to the modern classrooms project podcast each week, we bring you discussions with educators on how they use blended, self paced and mastery based learning to better serve their students. We believe teachers learn best from each other, so this is our way of lifting up the voices of leaders and innovators in our community. This is the modern classrooms project podcast.

Toni Rose Deanon  0:25  
Hello and welcome to the modern classrooms project podcast. My name is Toni Rose Deanon, they them pronouns, a designated hype person here at MCP. And I am joined by Sam Meisenberg, co founder of study snacks, a training company focused on cyber security and AI and Sam is a super user of MCP strategies and products, which is also so great to hear. So welcome Sam. 

Sam Meisenburg  0:54  
Thank you so much for having me. 

Toni Rose Deanon  0:55  
Oh yeah, it's just really exciting to be in this space with you. And shout out to rob for connecting us. And so thank you so much for saying yes to the podcast. And so before we get started, what is bringing you joy currently? 

Sam Meisenburg  1:08  
So I have this transparent bird feeder that you can stick to the window so you see the birds when they come up. And despite the cold, the birds are still coming and eating. So if it seems like I'm distracted during this podcast, just because I'm watching the birds. Okay, 

Toni Rose Deanon  1:22  
oh my gosh, that's so cool. I didn't even know that was a thing. Yeah, 

Sam Meisenburg  1:25  
yes, that that, yes, it is a thing. And perhaps we can drop a link to in the show notes, right? What if this whole thing was like a pyramid scheme? So I could just sell this transparent bird feeder?

Toni Rose Deanon  1:38  
Oh my gosh, the pyramid schemes are something else so but no, I would love a link to that, because I do love birds, and I feel like we're getting at that age now where bird watching is a thing, and I feel like that's how I know I'm aging is because I'm like, oh, birds. All right. Well, tell us more about who you are, Sam, because I know you and I just met, so I'm also getting to know you as well as our listeners. So tell us about who you are and how you started your MCP journey, or study snacks, or, honestly, anything that you've done, sure, sure. 

Sam Meisenburg  2:14  
Well, I feel like I can answer your your question in a couple different ways, but I feel like to tell you the whole story, I need to make a confession. I'm a little ashamed and embarrassed, but I used to lecture. I know, I know, I used to stand up in front of the board and just talk at the students, and most of the time was actually a virtual board, because I did a lot of live online teaching for adults. And you know, I knew, like, deep down, that it wasn't really working, and I was only connecting with a couple of my students, but I always thought the solution was just to kind of get better at lecturing, like, bring more energy change my slides use less slides use better analogies, or just be funnier, which is a problem, because I'm not very funny, and I even learned how to juggle. I'm totally serious. I learned how to juggle because I was like, when people aren't paying attention, I'll just start juggling. Yes, for those of you listening on podcasts, I'm juggling balls right now. I got three balls. Here comes a fourth and a fifth. No, I'm joking, but I never, of course, like address the underlying issue, right? Of the problem was lecture in the first place. So when study snacks, which I mentioned, typically does adult learners had an opportunity to work with high school seniors, I knew that if we didn't change the way that we taught and we just taught in the same way that I previously been teaching, we would have been cooked as the as the kids taught me to say. So I wanted to kind of redesign the whole learning experience start from scratch. And that's when I came across MCP and you guys, methodologies. And you know, to cut to the punch line, I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that MCP teaching style has changed my life, both inside the classroom and a bit outside of it. I don't think I've ever had more fun. I don't think the students has ever had more fun. I don't think I've felt like I knew my students as well as I do right now, and I can't see myself going back and teaching any other way.

Toni Rose Deanon  4:18  
Oh, man, that's like, I need to steal your two minute pitch and use it for myself, honestly? No, that was, that was really great, right? Because lecturing, that was kind of what we've known all of our teaching or learning career, right? And so it's just like, it's it's the norm, it's familiar. And like you said, we really tried to make lectures as engaging as possible. I know for me as an English teacher, I had stories, I had jokes. At the end of the day, though, my kids are just like, what are what? What do we learn?

Sam Meisenburg  4:52  
People don't learn from when you talk at them, they learn when they do things. And that sounds so obvious, but it took me a lot. I'm trying to realize that, 

Toni Rose Deanon  5:01  
yeah, and again, that's another thing too, right? Like you said, it sounds so obvious, and I think we just forget. I just think again, it's the familiarity, right? Of like, you know what? I've been doing it this way, so I'm going to continue doing it, and I know it's not working, and yet I still need to be reminded that, like, oh, even me as a teacher, I hate professional development, where I am being talked at the entire time, right? And so it just trickles down. So thank you. Thank you for that. Thank you for sharing just a little bit background of like, where you were and then how you got started. And so you know, you did talk about MCP methodologies. How did that? How did that show up in the training and within the larger context of workforce readiness training and professional learning? 

Sam Meisenburg  5:45  
Yeah. So to answer your question, and to kind of summarize the whole thing, I'm gonna name drop for a sec, even though you already mentioned this name. So Rob Barnett, co founder and CPO MCP and author of Meet Every Learner's Needs. Yes, this is a pyramid scheme to sell Rob's book. No, I'm joking. He so he talks about analogy that's near and dear to my heart, because I'm a baseball player, and I think this podcast is coming out in March, so it's good timing, because it's spring training anyway, he talks about at bats. So he says, How many at bats can you get the students during class? And when I do my lesson planning, that's sort of like all that I think about during lecture, they get no at bats, but even a small moment can be an at bat. So like, I don't know if you need to introduce some sort of big, heavy, abstract concepts or content, such as privacy, you could do True or False. True or false, your organization can see your private browsing, even if you're in incognito mode, true or false. Toni Rose, 

Toni Rose Deanon  6:47  
that's scary, and I want to say false, but I feel like the answer is true, and now I'm like, dang, I will never use incognito ever again.

Sam Meisenburg  6:56  
True or False. Your school, can you know? See, you know what you're doing if they own the device. My point is, you know, small moments like that get people excited for the content, and then I think about higher stake at bats as well. So meaning, this might be a small group activity, right? Students working together in a group, maybe they have to write their own privacy policy, and then they have to present it to the class while the rest of class tries to find loopholes in the privacy policy. And then I think of like one more sort of obvious at bat, which is the independent, self paced work. So this, as a ex lecturer, as you were saying earlier, is like a little nerve wracking, because you're saying, Hey, student, go off on your own while I'm in the classroom, get on a computer, install this VPN, try to track your IP address, and then go see how that affects your helps with privacy online, and I'm just there to see if you need support or you have questions. And that is a weird feeling for somebody who used to lecture when it's a quiet class and students are doing independent work, and I'm just walking around, but again, as we sort of said, that's teaching. Teaching is not talking at students. It's supporting them when they need help, 

Toni Rose Deanon  8:14  
yeah, and when we're talking about students too, it's all ages, right? Not necessarily just k 12, but also adult students, right? Adult learners. Now, Sam, I don't know what at bat means. So for listeners who may not know baseball terminology, and also for me, can you tell us more about what that means?

Sam Meisenburg  8:35  
So at bat refers to when a player will step up to the plate. So if you know what home plate is, what happens is you go into the batter's box and you have to face the pitcher, and the pitcher is trying to get the hitter out, and the hitter is trying to get on base, and that whole interaction is called an at bat. 

Toni Rose Deanon  8:58  
Ah,

Sam Meisenburg  9:01  
now if we were doing some MCP learning here, what I might have you do is, actually, let's go to a baseball field, watch a game, and then maybe you can actually step into the batter's box and grab a bat, and then you can learn bat looks, 

Toni Rose Deanon  9:16  
oh my gosh. Now I can be like, I'm gonna go to all the baseball games and say, like that, that's, that's what they're doing. It's at bat like,

Sam Meisenburg  9:27  
wow, they know so much

Toni Rose Deanon  9:30  
I know, right? Okay, and this is, again, this is really fascinating, too, especially when we're talking about, like, privacy policy, right? Even as an adult, I am ashamed, also, like you, to say that I don't read any of those policies, because I'm like, the terms and conditions. I'm like, accept, accept, accept. Because this is something that they don't make accessible for me anyway, right? Like, especially for my neurodivergent brain, you're gonna give me lots of words and words that I don't know, I don't have the capacity, I don't have the motivation, to read all of that. And that's a lot of truth for a. Lot of people, that's truth for a lot of people, right? And so for you to be able to break this down of like, Hey, we're gonna create your own privacy policy, and then we're going to evaluate and analyze, like, Are there loopholes? Are there things that we could do better, right? And then also, like, providing this space to where students can ask questions, right? Or just be like, Okay, now I can create it. So now I know how these privacy policies look, how they feel, how they sound, all that, which I think, again, like you said, right? It's less talking at them and them doing more. And one thing that I really enjoy about this model too, is that there's less work on me as an educator. There's more work on the folks that are coming in, and that's how it should be, 

Sam Meisenburg  10:41  
yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's really interesting, because I agree with you, it's less work, however, it's more work in the planning, 

Toni Rose Deanon  10:51  
in the planning, yes, 

Sam Meisenburg  10:52  
right. So I actually am probably way more comfortable and have to do less prep, if I just go in front of the class and start talking, because I've taught this so many times, I think I have a good analogy to explain it, whatever it might be that is technically work, because I'm the one talking, but I don't have to think about it, and it's so easy, and I just, you know, my like, muscle memory takes over. But to have a, you know, self paced, skills based mastery. Lesson takes a lot of pre work and lesson planning, but also, as teachers like, that's fun, right? Like creating a learning experience, at least for me, is a lot of fun, brings me joy. And you're right, like in the room itself, the students are the one working, and as you said, that's how it should be. 

Toni Rose Deanon  11:41  
And thanks for calling that out too, right? Because we do hear a lot of comments of like, Oh, it's a lot of front load planning. And the thing is, like, we already plan anyway throughout the school year, so you're actually taking your time back, and then you're actually using your time more intentionally with your students, because you're in the same space, and you actually know where the unit is going, what the lessons are going to be, and it's not just like a surprise, right?This made me, this made me think too of a headline that I may have read somewhere on LinkedIn, like someone had posted it about how they think college professors should teach K 12. And I was like, Oh, that definitely should be a thing. And now I'm not gonna, like, go off on my cousin. I'm not doing that at all. My cousin, she's, you know, PhD. She's in her doctorate program, and she does teach undergrad, and she's never had any teaching experience before at all. So I'm constantly, like, picking her brain. Of like, Hey, how are you making this more active for your students, so that you're not just lecturing all day? And when I read that, I was like, dang, that's so true. Like I really do think folks who are creating and planning these learning experiences, they probably should go into a classroom and see what the best practices are, because talking at students, no matter the age, doesn't work for anybody.

Sam Meisenburg  13:05  
Yeah, yeah. And I think, I think to your point earlier, like teachers, especially with adult learners, can just use their instincts. Like, would I as a student enjoy sitting here being talked out like, of course not, you know. So just put yourself in the shoes of the learner, and the the all the planning around the lessons will kind of take care of itself. 

Toni Rose Deanon  13:26  
Yeah, completely agree with you. And I'm also thinking back. I think it was like the year before I started implementing the model where I was coming into school in the morning. One morning, I was like, What am I teaching today? Huh? I think we're talking about figurative language. I guess I'll just do that. That is wild to me, how unprepared I was and how this model really, like forced me to plan and lay everything out. So, okay, great, great, great. Okay, so how, how did the high school students take to like, Uber technical concepts such as cyber security, because, again, we've heard a lot about cyber security, but this is again, a topic for me that I avoid because I don't know anything about it. My brother does cyber security, and I've yet to talk to him about it, because I just don't understand the language. So how do you get high school students involved, engaged and motivated to learn about this. 

Sam Meisenburg  14:21  
Yeah, well, if you talk to your brother about cybersecurity, I have a feeling that they might say, Look, you know, cybersecurity might sound technical and like Uber arcane, but actually, underneath of all that, it's not. It is all about critical thinking. It's all about, you know, communication, it's all about risk management, things that high school students are learning to do in their lives, like right now. And so I think if you can just tie it back to what they're doing, and then their instincts and things they're already good at, I think they'll have a natural affinity to it.

And, you know, making the content fun and approachable also doesn't hurt. Like, one thing that we did that I'm really proud of is that we staged a fake cyber attack during class. So the middle of class, I had someone come in from the students organization, and she was like, all flusters, like, we just got this crazy ransom note. Can you help us figure out what's going on. And I was like, Well, you know, I'm in the middle of class, but sure the students helped me. I said, Folks, we can figure it out. And, you know, they got to learn how to isolate the attack, how to respond to it from a PR perspective, and how to quantify, you know, the cost of the cyber breach. And I think I had them fooled. Nobody was willing to admit it. I was at the at the, like, halfway through, I was like, Alright, guys like, you know, this is fake. And they're like, Oh yeah, of course, we knew that. Like, no, no, I don't think you just, you're willing to admit it. So anyway, I'm sure some of the students thought it was cringe, and it was weird, and it was, you know, a little hokey. But ultimately I try, you know, and you have to take the risk. And sometimes you have a good idea, and it doesn't work out in the live classroom, or sometimes it's on the fence and it works out perfectly. So I just feel like doing as many small things as you can to make it more real for the students is something that I've seen work really well. 

Toni Rose Deanon  16:21  
And again, like you said, making it more real, right? You also mentioned strengths, knowing your students strengths. So how do you figure out your students strengths? Is there, like, a conversations, one on one, surveys, reflections, like, how does that? How does that look for you? 

Sam Meisenburg  16:35  
Yes, I'm gonna, I'm gonna choose from the list that you gave me, which I think it was a or b, which means one on one conversations. And that's also the beauty of the MCP model, you can have more one on one time, right with your students. So what we did at the very first class, at the beginning, while, you guessed it, students were doing some self paced work, I brought in each student one on one to have a conversation, just to get them know them a little bit better, figure out what they want to do, you know, long term, and how I can, you know, make connections between what we're learning and maybe a cybersecurity world to kind of what they want to do. And, you know, you can also just pick up strengths along the way. When you reflect and look at all the self paced assignments of the students submit. So one of the things they had to do was write a spear phishing email to try to trick a user into click ambitious a link. I know it was a lot of fun. 

Toni Rose Deanon  17:29  
You didn't send it. They didn't send it to anyone, right? 

Sam Meisenburg  17:33  
I could neither confirm nor deny 

Toni Rose Deanon  17:35  
that's a real world application. Sam,

Sam Meisenburg  17:39  
actually, I just want to go down this rabbit hole for a second, because it was actually you brought up something interesting. We're talking about the privacy policy, where it's like to understand something else better, or somebody else's perspective. It's always a good idea to do it on your own. So meaning these students will probably never, ever fall for a spear phishing email because they can, they thought, along with the attackers. And if you can put yourself in the attackers shoes, you're going to understand how they operate, and sort of what you need to do to avoid, you know, falling for for traps like like that. So to go back to your original question before that rabbit hole, I just want to say as that self paced exercise, as an example, I got to learn, oh, this student is a strong writer, right? Or this student might have used AI to write this, but they didn't do a lot of editing. Let's talk about that. Or the student may need some work on their writing skills, and then you can kind of just pick things up as they actually do more. And you can never get to know a student as well is when you actually look at the stuff that they do.

Toni Rose Deanon  18:43  
Oh, this is so great. I love this concept of, like, do it on your own, right? Like you can put yourself in an attack, an attacker's shoes, like, perspective, right? And this, this made me think of, I was an RA in college at UGA, and we had to take this class where it was all about, like, human behavior. And one of our tasks was, hey, look at a marginalized group, right? Look at something that you are not well aware of, and then have conversations with those you know, with the with that, with people who are in that marginalized group. And then, like, just follow them for a day to see how, like, they function and navigate in the world, right? And so now, funny story, Sam, I was like, You know what? I have a lot of gay male friends. I want to go and shadow a lesbian for shadowing, because now I'm a big old queer but, like, it really opened my eyes. Of like, wow, I never considered that this is a challenge. I never considered that this is a stereotype or the way that folks are being discriminated, right? But like being able to find someone who is willing to just show me a day in the life of whatever it is that they're doing, it really made me more empathetic. First of all, and. It also made me more aware of my surroundings and like the privileges that I have had as whatever I was showing up as back in the day. And so it was really interesting for you to say this, of like, no, like, put yourself in the shoes of the attacker. So then, now, again, like you said, critical thinking skills, right are now expanding communications also expanded because you then being able to create, like, you're able to create from that person's perspective.

And how cool. That's creativity as well, right? And then the risk management piece of it, of like, hey, you know, phishing emails, like spams, the scams, all of that, like, you know, they're around, they're around. And so now let's, like, create and see how, how all of this could pan out. I just Oh my gosh, that's so cool. That's so cool. 

Sam Meisenburg  20:51  
Yeah, and thank you. I appreciate that. And I think like that, that that so cool moment is like something that, as I sort of alluded to earlier, can come naturally to a teacher. It's like, what would I if I were learning this for the first time? What would be cool to me? What would I want to see? What's the coolest thing I've seen in the real world of cybersecurity? And how can I make that into an actual lesson? And that is more fun and more rewarding to craft lessons than to craft a lecture. 

Toni Rose Deanon  21:22  
Yeah? And I'm thinking too, that a lot of our educators do come into the classrooms with their passions of whatever they're teaching, right? Like, I became an English teacher because I love reading and writing so and I wanted to create all kinds of worlds for my students to partake in. And so again, there's this passion, right? Like educators are really passionate going into the classroom, and I think sometimes we burn that light out because of systems and procedures and expectations that are really not sustainable. But I love this. So okay, we're gonna, we're gonna shift the conversation from cyber security. Oh, but before we do that, I wanted to ask this question. Sam, what is one thing that people should know about cybersecurity that, like most people don't know about, like, a common thing or something that's important that we should know about, that not a lot of people know about, oh man, putting you in the spot.

Sam Meisenburg  22:17  
Let me. Let me think. Let me think, Oh man, it's tough question, but I would say, going back to our concept of privacy, it's important to remember that you can't be completely private online. That's easy way to think about it. I know, I know, sorry to sorry to disappoint. But if you like even going with that, the concept that we talked about, if you were to install a VPN, virtual private network on your computer, sure your internet service provider or your school or your organization can't see the websites or the traffic on the network that you're going to but the VPN provider can. So it's all about a trade off of like, who you want to trust with your data, who you want to trust with your privacy, and it's not always perfect. So just remember, you can't fully be incognito, and it's about making decisions about who you want to give a little bit of visibility to. 

Toni Rose Deanon  23:17  
This is coming. I mean, this is like bringing up so much for me. I I was in grad school, and my professor, like, really got onto me, because we were talking about privacy and Google, right? And I said, Well, I don't care. They already have my data, but he went off on me. He was like, that is so ignorant to say, like, What in the world? You just don't care if your data is being collected. So do you have, like, not Chrome, but like, Do you have another browser that you would recommend where it's a little bit more private? 

Sam Meisenburg  23:46  
Yes, um, I feel like this whole podcast is now just a way for me to sling other products and build the products. But Brave is a really good browser. I think if you really want to get serious. You know, you could, like, go on the dark web via, like, an onion router, I know, or you can use something called DuckDuckGo, which is a little more user friendly. So, yes, I'm not here endorsing any products, but you should look into it yourself. 

Toni Rose Deanon  24:17  
Yeah, I've heard of DuckDuckGo. That was what my professor was telling all of us to switch to. And, I mean, this was back in 2019 and I was like, No, we're fine. It's fine. Everything's fine. And now later on, it's like, oh, wait a minute, you literally have everything. Okay. Well, thank you for entertaining those questions and expanding my brain. We're going to shift to AI training, because, again, this is a hot topic right now in education everywhere, honestly. So why is this important to offer to high school students? 

Sam Meisenburg  24:55  
Well, so yes, and I just want to say that we got to say the obviousThing which you alluded to, which is, like a lot of smart people are saying AI and generative AI is going to change the way that we work and how we learn, and we're seeing that happen in real time. So I don't think I need to rehash why it's so important, but young people need to know it, especially because it's going to show up in the workplace, right? It's going to be part of their work reality. Now, to help answer the question, I also wanted to share a couple like, I think, interesting moments from class around our AI curriculum. So I talked to a student, and this is the power of one on one conversations, who told me that he had a D in Calc. And I was like, alright, let's figure out what's going on. He said, Well, I do really well in the homework, because chatgpt does my calc homework for me, I don't do so well in the in class test. I was like, okay, you know that makes sense, right? 

Toni Rose Deanon  25:48  
We love the honesty here. 

Sam Meisenburg  25:50  
Honestly, if students kind of feel safe and they know that that they can trust you, you will be surprised by the amount of honesty and the stuff that they share. So I did. I did feel flattered, right that that they were, they're honest to share their greats. But we had a conversation. We said, Okay, well, maybe chatgpt can be used in a slightly different way. It can help you do more practice problems. You can ask it to give a explanation, right of, of, of a like, Wait, like, an explanation of a step by step process and how it got the right answer, things like that. So I think small moments like that, assuming that, you know, it's a good idea to assume that students might not know how to use technology in the best way, and we're just giving little sort of nudges like that, I think was really helpful. There was one other moment I want to talk about from class, which is we spent a lot of time showing the limitations of AI, especially around human creativity. So an exercise that we did is we put we pulled up a poster of shoes, and I blurred out the caption, and we had a caption contest, okay, who can create the best caption for this poster in this ad, and we let AI do it, and I let the students do it, and it was even close. The AI was cringe. It didn't make any sense. It was too long, and the students were just like, so creative. And I think

they walked away feeling empowered. They walked away feeling like, oh, I have something to to, you know, contribute. I think that they felt like, AI is now is not a replacement, it's just a tool. And if I could summarize the whole thing, there was one review that a student left that I'm really proud of. We asked them, you know, what was something that you learn from the class. And they said, I never saw AI like, I'm seeing AI in a new way. I always thought it was about cheating on a test. That's, again, honesty, the word that they used, or getting an answer. Now I see as a tool to build on existing ideas so they don't see it as like their peer or replacement. I think they see as a tool that they're using to kind of elevate themselves. And I think that's the important frame, frame of mind and mindset that students should take.

Toni Rose Deanon  28:10  
Oh my gosh, this is so great. Sam, I love that. I mean great reflection from your students as well, right? And I think this is a different perspective too, that you you gave the opportunity for students to look at the limitations of AI. Because a lot of the times, what I hear is, AI is great. Here's how AI can, you know, do all the things for you, and it's like, no, like there are limitations. It is a creativity piece of it as well. And I love that you said that students felt empowered, right? And I think just a lot more knowledgeable, and, again, aware of how they can utilize these tools to better enhance the way they navigate in this world, right? And you know, you were also saying, like, when you use chat, GPT, there's prompting. And I was just thinking, this is a skill asking questions, is a skill that we often don't teach our students, because, again, in traditional lectures, right? It's passively lecturing, passively like passively learning. And students can't really ask questions, because it then, like, you know, the teacher get distracted. It's like, no, no, that's not what I'm saying. This is what I'm saying instead. And so I think with chat GPT, this is another skill too, that students can practice is asking questions.

And so you also said, you know, we want to assume that students don't know blank, right? Like, and I always say that too, right? I always say, like, I'm just gonna assume that my students don't know how to take notes. I'm gonna assume that my students don't know how to do this thing that I'm teaching them. Because what I don't want to happen is that gap continues to widen, because I assumed that they already learned that skill from their previous year, when that's probably not the case, even though I probably know, you know, my fifth grade teachers that I work with are bomb, you know, like, amazing, but I want to make sure again, reiterating like, Hey, this is a skill that we want to continue. Continue expanding and enhancing. And so I love, I love this concept too, of just huh, how cool, how cool. It's so real to do a caption challenge, 

Sam Meisenburg  30:10  
yeah, exactly, you know. And I just want to also go back to one thing you said about not making assumptions, one thing that I do differently now that I didn't do before, is I don't make any assumptions around time bounding, meaning I in the back of my head. Don't say anymore, oh, this will take the students a half hour. Some students will take five minutes. Some students take an hour and a half. And that's that's fine, right? That's the beauty of self paced. So I don't assume anything about time. I drop words like this will be easy, because, again, that's not something that you want to assume. So I think just changing my mindset and perspective has really helped me, you know, connect and just be a better teacher for the students. 

Toni Rose Deanon  30:54  
Now I have a follow up question. You know, the phrasing this will be easy. You drop that. How did you hold yourself accountable for dropping that. 

Sam Meisenburg  31:02  
Well, sometimes it slips out and you have you once you say, you're like, oh, I should say that, but no, I, I it's, it's a, it's a hard question to answer, because I don't know if I have a good answer. There's nothing I did necessarily. But when I, you know, I think the only part that I sort of rehearse or practice or spend a lot of like pre work around the actual words that I'm saying around classes, all the transitions, because those are so important when you are, especially live online, when you're transitioning between activities, that has to be tight, it has to be sharp. Everybody has to understand, like, what they're actually supposed to do next. So it's a long way of saying, If I'm introducing a activity or self paced exercise, I will have at least thought about what I want to say. So in my pre work, I might have to edit out, or when I rehearse it, I might edit out me saying it's easy. So that is, I think, a one moment where that does come up, 

Toni Rose Deanon  32:03  
oh, this is great, because again, right, you're you're planning, and then you're rehearsing.  So you kind of have that too in your, in your head. I know for me, when I was trying to do more like gender neutral terms in the classroom, and not necessarily saying kings and queens or girls and boys, I told my students, hey, when you catch me say that, I need y'all to say, oh, Ms. D, you just said this thing, right? So it was really helpful for me and helpful for them also, like, Oh, you're trying to be a lot more inclusive with the language that you choose. So we're gonna call each other in and hold each other accountable. And I really love that part. And I was like, you know, if y'all just remember, if y'all notice, like, let me know, interrupt me right there, because I don't know. And then the time bounding piece to Sam, right? You said, you release that you don't assume anymore. And I'm having a hard time grappling with this, because I always assumed how long it would take my students. And the way that I did that was like, Oh, this is a six minute video. I want to multiply that by three that's probably how long it's going to take my students to do. But I love this concept of you just saying, like, no, actually, I can't assume, because you're right. Some students will be done in five minutes. Some students will be done in 50 minutes, because that's just how they process. And the self pacing is so good with allowing and inviting students to take their time and then also again, within boundaries, right? It's not like you have one lesson for three weeks. Like, no, we're gonna keep going.

So thank you for just kind of disrupting that, that belief as well for me, of like, oh, I don't actually need to have or be married to a time, because I really don't know how long it'll take my students. So thank you for sharing that again.

Zach Diamond  33:48  
Hey there listeners. This is Zach dropping in with some announcements for you. For this week. Want to start building your own modern classroom. You can sign up for our summer virtual mentorship program from either may 19 to June, 22 or June. 23 through July. 27 you can work with one of our expert educators to build materials for your own classroom. We have scholarships all over the country so you can enroll for free in places like New York City, Los Angeles, Oakland, Chicago, Minnesota, Alabama and more. Check out modern classrooms.org/apply-now. To see if there's an opportunity for you that's modern classrooms.org/apply-now.

And of course, I'll have that link in the show notes if you want to just click it. And we have a book club. We're reading Rob Barnett meet every learner's needs together as a community. And our last session is an author, Q and A with Rob on Wednesday, April 2, at 7pm Eastern, you can join us in sharing ideas, questions and resources. Finally, Eileen Ng, Nichole Freeman and Carmen, Welton MCP, implementers and DMCEs are presenting at NEASC educator showcase. 90s, 2025 on April 3 in Nashua, New Hampshire. If you're attending, please stop by and say hi. But for now, let's get back into the podcast with TR and Sam.

Toni Rose Deanon  35:13  
Now, given that this was your first time working with high school students, and bless your heart, I could never I told myself that maybe when I turn it like 30, late 30s, my 40s, maybe I'll teach high school. But when I was younger, there was no way. What was your favorite part or moment from the training? 

Sam Meisenburg  35:33  
If you're gonna make me choose just one moment, I'll try, because there's so many good moments. But something we did very early on, and class number one had nothing to do with cybersecurity, nothing to do with it, nothing to do with AI. The students got to make their own cell phone policy. They lost their minds. They loved it. I think they loved it because they it signaled to them like, hey, this class is different. I'm an adult. I'm being brought in. I have autonomy over my learning. I'm in control. And I think that, you know, that's what all young people want to feel right? They want to be like, they're, they're, they're, they're in on the fold. And I think students know cell phones are a problem, so why not make them part of the solution? And I think I earned a lot of trust. I earned a lot of credibility, and I think it set the right tone for the rest of class. It was a big microcosm for what I was going to be asking of them for the rest of the class.

Toni Rose Deanon  36:32  
Just how dope? How dope would it have been, though, if all schools ask students to partake in the decision making of a cell phone policy, because I haven't even heard of this. Maybe some do, maybe, maybe some do, right? But I know that this year, specifically this year, I've heard time and time again, we're going phone list like we don't have technology students can't use their bluetooth headphones. They can't use their phones like they have to turn their phones in. And I am so curious how cool it would be to have students actually create that cell phone policy, and how often that happens? 

Sam Meisenburg  37:10  
Yeah, no, it's a good question. I'm not sure I will say, you know, obviously it worked for me in my class. I know every circumstance is different, but I think the other benefit of it is, like, it became less of a traditional classroom, because I'm not your teacher, I'm your peer. Like, let's all learn together. Like, sure, I can maybe help out if you get stuck, but ultimately, like, we're all in this together trying to figure this out in real time. And I think that's a better dynamic, right? In a Yeah, classroom, 

Toni Rose Deanon  37:39  
because you're not like you're not telling them what to do, they're creating what this learning environment will look like for them and how they can be successful. And there's a lot more buy in and motivation for it, right? And so, okay, question, Sam, how did you come up with this cell phone policy? Create your own like, That's so dope.

Sam Meisenburg  37:58  
So I cannot. I am. I cannot pretend like this was my idea. Would you like to guess who I got this idea from? Who do you? Who do you think? 

Toni Rose Deanon  38:10  
I mean, we only know one person, Rob.

Sam Meisenburg  38:15  
Of course, of course. He, he sent me some stuff that he did when he was teaching. Because, you know, I think a lot about how can you create a good lesson? And one of the easiest ways to do that look at what other people did, you know? And like, obviously, Rob taught a way different subject than I did, but I could understand the structure and the flow. So how did I come up with this great idea. I didn't, Rob did, and then I asked him whether, like, it worked, whether the students were throwing out crazy policies that you could, that you might need to veto. And of course, that didn't happen. So it gave me the confidence to do it in my class. And I really think, you know, from that moment, like I said I had the trust of the class, I had the credibility, and it was just fun and important. 

Toni Rose Deanon  39:05  
Yeah, yeah. I mean, shout out to rob again, right? Sharing is caring. And, I mean, I already knew Rob was cool and like this just elevated him some more. So shout out to rob for that. I mean, again, right? Let me talk about I've heard students creating community agreements together, right? Like the class creating community agreements, which I think is also beautiful, rather than them coming in with rules already created for them, right? And so to even like further that with the cell phone policy, I think that's really dope. I love that there was an opportunity for that to happen. 

Sam Meisenburg  39:36  
Just to add to that too, you know, the quote, enforcement was never like a real thing that I needed to do, because students, I noticed, were sort of enforcing themselves, like amongst their peers. And we actually did something smart that I think worked out really well. We actually printed the policy, put it on a giant poster and just put it like off to the side. In the room. So it's like a physical reminder that, hey, remember when we did this cool thing together, and you guys came up with this and agreed to this, and then a student could also just point to it right, say, if there's disruption during class, hey, just point. Or even I could just point to it right. And then that's all that needs to be said. So I think not only should you do the cell phone policy, maybe printing it out if it works in your classroom, is a good idea too. So 

Toni Rose Deanon  40:23  
Are students able to revise the policy? 

Sam Meisenburg  40:26  
So we never got there, I don't know. You can make the rules whenever you want. What I will say is there was revisions in real time, because we voted on whether this provision of the policy was going to be accepted, and it was just a very simple majority vote. I was a majority. I did not have veto power, and I was just part of the community. And for example, one student said, Okay, well if, if you are caught breaking the cell phone policy, then you have to do a wall sit for 10 minutes. And that was voted that democracy.

Toni Rose Deanon  41:08  
Oh, and again, that is real world application, right? Like really being able to even know how government, policies and law making, all of that works outside of the classroom. So I love that in the 10 minute wall sit, I would have not survived. Oh, God, I just rather not be on my phone. 

Sam Meisenburg  41:29  
Okay, so I understand that you gathered a lot of data from this training, right? So what is the most interesting piece of data that this training generated for you? Yeah, so I will answer your question that I promise, but I want to just give one piece of context before I get to it, and that is, you know, look, I acknowledge that somebody, another teacher, who's here in this podcast might say, this is workforce readiness training. Of course, you can do all this fun stuff and give all these students at bats, which Toni Rose is when you I'm just kidding. So of course, you can do all this stuff. I can't, because I have a test, some standardized state tests at the end of my curriculum that I have to do, the students have to maintain this pace, and lecture is the best way for me to actually deliver that content. So I want to acknowledge that, but I also want to share some data. Now we're getting to your question that hopefully may give that listener some hope. So we did do even though it was a skills based course, we did do a diagnostic exam and a final exam on the front end and back end. 55% student average, cohort average on the diagnostic, 88% on the final exam. So that's a long way of saying that. You know, I get it. It's just one data point. But I'm sure there's much more data MCP that supports this idea that a self paced, non lecture classroom can still help students, quote, learn and learn the language. I mean, you said you used that phrase earlier, learning the language of cybersecurity. That's something that we did during class, and that can show up, and those positive results can show up in a traditional multiple choice exam.

Toni Rose Deanon  43:19  
Love that. And I've been hearing from guests too, Sam that trust the process, right? Trust the process. It may not be nice and perfect in the beginning. That's why we like we iterate, we make changes, we edit, we give you know, we get feedback, we reflect. And thank you for sharing this. This data point too, of like from you said 55% to 88 right?

Sam Meisenburg  43:43  
It's possible. I said 55 I met 51 which is starts with an eight. That's all you need to know. 

Toni Rose Deanon  43:53  
Yeah, that's a huge jump. That's a really big jump. And so I really, again, want to name the fact that, like data will show you, you got to give it time as well. It's not like it's going to, you know, it's going to grow overnight. It is throughout, like weeks and months, right, or even the year that you see the change. But definitely trusting that process. And I do want to say that I love that you, you mentioned that, you know, some of our teachers will say, like mine's standardized. I have a curriculum that I need to follow. The district is telling me that I need to be here in this particular spot at this day, because when they come visit me, I better be at lesson 5.2 right? So I hear that a lot too, and and my thing is, I've gone to different classrooms where it's like science and English, right, like the subjects that are being tested, and I've heard time and time again that teachers say I'm actually ahead of pace, right? Like I am ahead of pace, and they're using that language for themselves too, not just for their students, right? Like I am ahead of pace, I feel like I can cover so much more of my content now with self pacing and blended and mastery based learning. And so, you know, for folks who are hesitant.

Trust the process make it look however you want it to look in your class, because there's no one right way to do it. And then also speaking as a middle school English teacher, where we did have MAP test, what is it that three times a year we had the Common Core, like standards that we had to follow, as well as all the standardized tests? When I tell you that my kids really, really, like, loved the model and being able to self pace like their confidence increased right now. Mind you, I can't tell you what the data point is, because I was back in 2020, but I know that the confidence increased. And I feel like when, when students confidence increased, then you know what their learning and their motivation will also increase and enhance and and elevate them, which I think is really dope. So thank you for sharing that piece of data and just a reminder that like you may not teach the same as I do, and we can still learn together, and we can still transfer the the model and the skills into our classrooms. Because, like, you said, right? Like, Rob shared this idea, and you were just like, oh, bet. I'm gonna put that in my classroom and do that in my classroom, and I'm gonna do it in a way that makes sense for me and my students, and I love that. Okay, so what is the great segue to the next question, of, like, what is a piece of advice you have for teachers who want to start teaching with MCP methodologies, 

Sam Meisenburg  46:23  
I would say, let the students know that you are actually looking at and paying attention to the self paced work that they do. So if you are convinced or listening to this podcast, you already do self pacing, that's great, but when the students click Submit. Something has to happen on the back end. So I made a mistake. I think when I did my self paced exercises and I designed them right, I tried to have this message pop up on the on the screen after the students submit, and it said something like, Great job, Awesome work. And I obviously was trying to be encouraging, but, but then I realized a student might think to themselves, I can type in anything. I can type in some mumbo jumbo, and I'm going to get the same, congratulations. Nice work. Message is that really like what I want to be signaling. And then the student is forced to think about, is anybody watching what I'm doing? Does anybody care about this work I'm doing? Is anybody paying attention? And that is a big abstract question that we have to let students know. Of course, yes. You know, we are paying attention. We do care. So if I had to do it all over again, I would have, you know, made a small edit to that screen that said something like, thanks for submitting. I look forward to reviewing your work and talking about it with you, something, something like that, so the students know it's a little more real that I'm paying attention. So that was, I think, a moment of of improvement that I needed to to shape up for next time there was one similar thing that I think went really well if they did self paced work at the end of class, so meaning I couldn't, in real time, review it and give feedback the next class. I always started with the self paced work that they did and pulled up one example of either randomly or one that was really good. And I would say, hey, Jayden, you submitted this in your self paced work. This is awesome. This is why it's good. Can you tell me a little bit more about why you made this choice? Right here use this word, and then Jayden gets to have an at bat and teach their peers. And peers can ask questions, and that, I think is was a really powerful moment. 

Toni Rose Deanon  48:43  
Okay, I wrote down a lot of things, Sam, because I love what you were saying about y'all, let's look at it. Let's actually pay attention to what students are creating. Because if we're asking them to do this thing, the least we can do is provide them feedback and provide them real time feedback, or at least feedback right away the day after, right? Not something that's good that they're going to get three four days later or weekend, right? And so and then this ties in with what I was thinking of busy work. I think now, as educators, as teachers, we have to sit back and say, like, is this busy work that we're giving them, or is this actually something that will make them better at whatever skill that we're teaching them, right? And if it is something that's going to be better than I as educators, should feel more motivated to look at the stuff that I'm creating for students to do. And so I really love again, this reminder of like, okay, be intentional with the tasks that you provide students. Just because it's self pacing doesn't necessarily mean you have to have a lot of busy work.

Sam Meisenburg  49:42  
There's one other mistake along those lines that I made in class. I remember, early on, they were doing some self paced work, and, you know, time was running out, and you know, they had to leave to catch the bus. And I said something like, Okay, why don't you just hit a or type in space bar here and then click submit. It. And then I was like, but, but then the students probably wondering, why am I doing this in the first place? If I use the words, it doesn't matter, just submit, then the students are thinking, Well, why am I doing this in the first place? Why does this matter for me? So to your point about making it as real as possible, giving them high stakes things that actually is not just busy work. That's meaningful skill development. Um, that's that's part of the planning and the pre work that we need to do as teachers, the reflection as well, right? 

Toni Rose Deanon  50:31  
And the awareness, honestly, too. And I mean, like you said, right? You didn't explicitly say it doesn't matter. You said, Just admit it. That equates to, it doesn't matter, just like do it right? So I You're so right. I have to stop saying, this is easy to stop saying. Just a minute, these are great reminders. So thank you so much for that, Sam. Okay, so what do you hope to see in the future?

Sam Meisenburg  51:02  
Well, I hope that the New York Yankees win the World Series. 

Toni Rose Deanon  51:04  
Oh, my God, here we go. I do know the Yankees, and I know that there's a it's Yankees and who are always feuding. There's another team, Red Sox, yes, yeah. Because I have some I have some have friends who are like, Yankee fans and have friends who are Red Sox fans. And I'd be like, I don't know what any of that means, but Okay, cool.

Sam Meisenburg  51:27  
Okay, yeah, all you need to know is that there you got it So, but anyway, I want the Yankees and World Series. I don't think that's what you're asking me about. What I want to see in the future. So I'm just gonna tie back to something I said previously, which is this amazing world that I had the opportunity to operate in of workforce readiness. There was no standard curriculum, there was no standard exam at the end, and I was just thinking, it's not it's not a new thought. I know a lot of people have written and talked about this, but why can't school systems be like this, like, Why can't school just be one big sort of primer for the for the workforce, and we can focus on skill development rather than an exam at the end? And you know, I'll leave it to smarter people to try to figure out how that actually works. But I just felt like the students had had better time. Us, as teachers, had a much better time. And you know, look, I've done a lot of exam prep when study snacks actually doesn't work with high school students. We work with adult learners to help pass certification exams. So I'm all about exams. I think they have their purpose. But for whatever reason, when it came to the high school students, I had a harder time seeing the value. And I think if you do want to use exams, maybe thinking about like the delta between a starting place and ending place, like, Why does a whatever a 75% on this exam have to be this arbitrary threshold? I think it's more interesting to look at a diagnostic where a student might start and where they ended up, and looking at that delta as a measurement of student success and learning outcome. 

Toni Rose Deanon  53:07  
Sam, this is a whole different conversation. I know what I'm saying, right? Like, I feel like you've just opened up a can of worms, and I have so much to say, and I should not say any of it

Sam Meisenburg  53:18  
back on but again, you will probably know much more, articulate, a lot better. So maybe I can interview you next time.

Toni Rose Deanon  53:27  
I can talk about a lot of things, and maybe we won't be so censored in that next conversation. Okay, so how can our listeners connect with you? Sam? Because I know that this is insightful. I mean, this is my first conversation about cyber security and AI training with high school students. So how can, how can our listeners connect with you? 

Sam Meisenburg  53:49  
Yeah, so you can search for me on LinkedIn. That's one of the easiest ways to do it. You can also send us a study snacks and email by just emailing Hello at study snacks.net and I look forward to the conversation. 

Toni Rose Deanon  54:05  
Yeah. And listeners, if you want to know more about study snacks as well, we'll put this in the show note. There's a link to be able to connect with Sam as well, and to just be like, hey, I want to know more about study snacks, so definitely look out for that as well. 

Sam Meisenburg  54:17  
And then that link redirects to the bird feeder. So there you go.

Toni Rose Deanon  54:24  
Another motivator, right? Like, hey, that's amazing. That's amazing. Well, Sam, this was such a pleasure. Thank you so much for sharing your experience and expertise with us. I really enjoyed this conversation. So just thank you. 

Sam Meisenburg  54:39  
Thank you appreciate it.

Zach Diamond  54:45  
Thank you so much for listening. You can find links to topics and tools we discussed in our show notes for this episode, and remember, you can learn more about our work at www.modernclassrooms.org and you can learn the essentials of. Our model through our free course at learn.modernclassrooms.org you can follow us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram at modernclassproj, that's P, R, O, J, we are so appreciative of all you do for students in schools. Have a great week, and we'll be back next Sunday with another episode of the modern classrooms project, podcast.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai