Zach Diamond  0:00  
Welcome to the modern classrooms project podcast. Each week we bring you discussions with educators on how they use blended, self paced and mastery based learning to better serve their students. We believe teachers learn best from each other, so this is our way of lifting up the voices of leaders and innovators in our community. This is the modern classrooms project podcast.

Toni Rose Deanon  0:28  
Hello and welcome to the modern classrooms project podcast. My name is Toni Rose Deanon, they them pronouns, a designated hype person here at MCP, and I am joined, yeah. I'm so excited by a recently named CEO of Crescendo Education Group, assuming the role from Joe Feldman, which I know a lot of you probably already know, the author of Grading for Equity and continuing the organization's commitment to accurate and fair grading practices. Whew. That's a That's a mouthful, and the work that you're doing is so important. So welcome. Dr Shantha Smith,

Dr. Shantha Smith  0:58  
thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here, and thank you so much for allowing me to come share this space with you.

Toni Rose Deanon  1:05  
Yeah, it's so exciting to be in this space with you. And thank you so much for saying yes to the podcast. I know that you and I had met at full scale symposium back in October in New Orleans, and I went to one of your sessions, you and Joe's session, and I was just so enthralled and so excited, because I did read the grading for equity book, and it really aligns with what we're doing here at MCP, which is mastery based learning, right? And so we really want our teachers, really challenge our teachers to shift, transform their grading mindsets and beliefs so that it's not based on a lot of biases as we as we'll continue to talk about it. Y'all so you all know, listeners, I'm really passionate about this, and so I'm excited to be here with an expert, or at least someone who knows a lot of things about grading policies and procedures in different schools all across the nation. And so before we get started, Dr Smith, what is bringing you joy? 

Dr. Shantha Smith  1:57  
Currently, I have picked up a new hobby, which is called Junk journaling, so I'm pretty excited about it, and totally transparent, definitely. Oh, energy. I've gone and bought all the things so that I can just make this as grand and exciting as possible. It's really a way, it's like a mix between scrapbooking and journaling to combo, and I'm really excited about the opportunity to document this year.

Toni Rose Deanon  2:29  
Yeah, and I'm well versed in the junk journaling only because I live with my sister, and she's like, all about it, and it's so cool. I could never do it. But because I don't know, I can't do junk like, just being able to put it all together like that really overwhelms me. But this is so exciting. How did you get into junk journaling? Dr Smith, because that's, that's so beautiful.

Dr. Shantha Smith  2:51  
It is, I guess, the beauty, or the curse of the algorithm. I don't know, I saw a I'm a person that's I love planners, pens, creativity, markers, anything like that. And so I saw some videos, and I was like, Yes, this is exactly what I need to do, because it's like, the pictures never make it off the phone anymore. You know what I mean, the things are getting lost. And who really takes the time to really scroll through their memories on their phone, right? So I thought was like, this is perfect, so I can really print some things out and have memories and a story to go with it. So the algorithm made me do it.

Toni Rose Deanon  3:34  
I love that so much. And I love the push too, from just folks around me. I know the push to go back to, like, the old ways, right? Like trying to lessen technology, lessen screen time, all of that good stuff. And so it's a lot of very nostalgic things for me, because I didn't grow up with screens. And so it's really nice to just go back to that.

Dr. Shantha Smith  3:53  
Yeah, I think that for me, my daughter, I got my daughter into it, so now it's like something that we can share together. And she went to Trader Joe's him, but when she brought me stuff back, she was like, here's the magazine. Did you put this in your jungle? I mean, so it is something that is a little bit of nostalgia, something that will I can share with my daughter, and something that I'll have like for the memories, so that, in case I forget the stories, I can always look back. I mean, those little moments, little moments matter. So I really am excited about having that opportunity to reflect and go back and see some of the things that I get to do in this one life that I have to live. 

Toni Rose Deanon  4:33  
Yes, it's such a great way to capture memories, definitely. So thank you for sharing that. So tell our listeners a little bit more about who you are and how you started your education journey. Because education journey, because you've done some really cool stuff.

Dr. Shantha Smith  4:45  
Oh, thank you so much. Well, because I've been around for 25 years in education and a student even longer, I'll give you the short version. I started in at. Education, because I definitely struggled in school, and I was the I was not the scholar student. I couldn't wait to go back to my high school and let them know I had my PhD, because they probably couldn't even imagine but I know that the that I had gifts and and I know that through my own work and over time, that I know that kids have to be placed in environments where that work for them, not for the people who are given the instructions, right? They need to be able to see themselves in the material, see themselves in there, the way that they process. And so for me, that was what led me to education. And my mom, my mom was like, at first she thought I was gonna be a comedian. Okay, because they weren't quite sure what I was going to do. It's okay, Mommy. I made it. I did, I did. I did all right for myself, but really, my mom, I helped my cousin learn how to tie a shoe, and she was like, you have a gift. And that propelled me into education. And so I have done a lot of things. Worked in peak pre K through 12th grade, supporting teachers through instructional coaching, mentoring. I was a reading specialist, reading teacher. I've done all the things I've been around a while, but the work that I am most proud of is the one that led me to you today, which is, I'm a mission driven girly and so like anybody knows me throughout my journey education, it used to when I was at one school, I really focused on social emotional learning, and like, I am passionate about something. I want to bring all my friends with me, and I'm like, This is what's best for the kids, and I love building community and connecting with other passionate educators. But my working time in Arlington Public Schools is when I found Joe's book and getting to work with my school in my district to help move grading forward. Is what led me here to you today. 

Toni Rose Deanon  7:04  
It gives me chills Whenever I listen to your story, because it's really like, what you did in the classroom that has now, like, you know, gotten you to where you are now, which is really dope. And that's just stories that I've heard from so many educators as well. Of like, this is what I was implementing in the class. Somebody saw it, and they were like, we want to, we want in, we want in, we want to know all the things that you're doing, and then moving on to, like, bigger, better things, right? Like, it's really, really cool. 

Dr. Shantha Smith  7:28  
Yeah, that was pretty exciting. And I believe in divine timing and how things like the synchronicity of this universe. And so when I was leading this work in my school and in my district. I was not even a social media person for work, but when I got into this role for working in the equity space, everybody was doing it, I was like, Okay, I guess I should be doing it too. So I started posting the work that I was doing leading, helping the leadership team move this work forward. And Joe, all the way in California, sent me a message, and was like, I'd love to hear more about what you're doing now. What other way would I have ever met Joe? He lives in Oakland, California, okay, I lived in the DMV. Okay. So there we were worlds apart, but through the passion that I had for sharing this work and working with a dedicated group of teachers in my school and in my district, I was able to connect with him through this. So I just think, I just love the divinity of it all of how something so you seem like you're doing things by yourself, and there is no like you're just working hard and nobody's listening, and really, things all come together, you know, through this, the divinity of it, the divinity of it, all, you know. So that was really powerful. So we're just, you feel like you're just one person, or you're just, it's just a small group of you, really, there are lots of people, and through this work, there was synergy, and we found each other.

Toni Rose Deanon  9:05  
Yeah, and I think that's one thing that I really, really love about Joe, too, right? Like, yes, he wrote this book, but then the fact that he was able to be like, Hey, you're actually doing the thing, right? Like, you're doing the practice of it. There's like, theory behind it. Now you're doing the thing. I want to collaborate with you. I want to learn more, and that's something that I really, really, really, really appreciate about Joe. So shout out to Joe here.

Dr. Shantha Smith  9:27  
Shout out to Joe. He is. He is awesome. I love we are. We are dynamic. I love to say we're a dynamic duo. And I just love how the universe brought us together to be able to share in something that not just me, but I get to connect with so many educators around the world who are doing this work, and help to bring and build the bridge between us to know that you're not alone and isolated in this work, that there is community out there, and even when you feel alone, that you can find a place where you don't feel alone anymore. That's why we're here,

Toni Rose Deanon  9:58  
yeah, and that's such an. Nice reminder too, right? Because there's been a whole thing with education being siloed, being very individualistic, right? Or, like, lonely, very lonely. And something that I've loved coming from covid. Covid was tough, right? But at this end, at the same time, there was that push for virtual spaces too, right? It doesn't all have to be in person. I created a lot of virtual communities so that I can be in spaces where people look like me, where they had the same passions as me, same interest, and that was actually filling up my cup, even though it wasn't in person. So like listeners, if you're a teacher out there, you're the only one who's trying to implement, trying to innovate, trying to change some stuff totally okay, it is scary. And come find us online, like we are here to support you all the way. And if we're ever in the area, I know for MCP, for myself, anyway, if I'm ever in the area, I would reach out and be like, Hey, do you want to, like, have a conversation, have lunch, breakfast, you know, dinner, something, so that we can figure out what we can do to better support you. So I really love that piece. And so now, okay, we're talking about grading for equity, but as we know right that the word equity, there's a lot of misconceptions about the word. So Have y'all shifted from using that word to another word so that people, you know, there's a lot of feelings behind it, and that's okay, that's okay, right? And I'm seeing your face, because I'm sure this has come up a lot, so I'm curious about what your thoughts are.

Dr. Shantha Smith  11:19  
Well, thanks for asking one what? Let me, let me say this. Let me start with the story. So there's this article that just came out. We had this huge thing happen in San Francisco, right? They were we had teachers engaged and ready to do the work, but through misunderstandings, missing misconceptions and just not being educated on what we really do. It really blew up, and because of lack of education. And then someone did another article, and they said in that article, you see the leaders in the article like we're still doing the work, we're just calling it something different. So so back to your question around equity. I don't care what you call it, right? I do care. Let me not say that I do care what you call it, but there has to be a variety of ways that we get people engaged. Because at the bottom, at the end of the day, I care about students. I am a fierce advocate for students. That is how I built my career. You can go to any of my former students. They know I am a strong advocate for students. Student adults get to choose where they work. Students do not get to choose the schools they go to. They don't get to choose their teachers. In some cases, they don't have a variety of teachers. They have one. There may be one geometry teacher and at your school, and if you have to take geometry, that's who you get. So I am a fierce advocate for students, and sometimes we have to. Harriet Tubman, you know, she didn't have a she had to go underground for a reason, right? The Underground Railroad existed for a reason. Happy Black History Month. Everybody contextualizing witnesses being taped, but yeah, period, some strategies. And sometimes there's a Malcolm X and there's a Martin Luther King. There are different varieties and ways that people get to access so although we know you know that equity is not what people are saying. It is and how the supports and structures that we're putting in place in the classroom is not something that should be demonized or weapons. It is something that is being helpful and supportive to students in service of learning. So however people come to that context. I can call it mastery based grading. I can call it I had a client. It's like, I'm worried. I don't want to make sure. I'm going to call it mastery based grading. I say, that's great. We're going to do the same thing. So whatever you need to do so that we can get to change the system. I don't want to argue with people. And when I got this role as CEO, one thing that I said, I'm not fighting people about what's right. I'm going to do what's right and find everybody else that wants to do what's right and do what's right by students I don't need to argue with because the thing is, when we're arguing with people about what's right and I'm right, that's really a distraction. And that's what you want me to do. You want me to spend my energy fighting you to make you see my humanity or to keep me from the your oppressive systems? I'm not doing that. That's a waste of my energy. Why, when I have so many teachers, educators, leaders, who are doing this work, engaging in this work, and working to change outcomes for students? I was I'm here now, but I've been in the classroom for years. In fact, I left the classroom and came back to the classroom. That's how much I love students. Okay, I worked at VCU for a couple years on the first early reading first grade in the state of Virginia, and I came back to the classroom. My friends, are you gonna go back to classroom? I was like, Yes, I love my kids. I didn't leave the classroom. Room because I didn't like teaching, I left the classroom so I can make a bigger impact, and so that I can have a bigger hand and how to make sure these systems change. So I don't care what you want to call it, I call it doing right. And whatever way, whether you're the Malcolm X or the Harriet Tubman or you want to you whoever you want to be in the system to get the work done. We do what we must, right? But at the end of the day, we know, just like that article that came out to help people understand about what happened in San Francisco, people literally said in the article, we're doing the work. We just have to call it something different. So obviously it works, and we know that mastery is should be the focus if we want students to focus on learning, this is the road and the pathway to that. And so that's where I stand, and no one has ever asked me that. So yeah, thank you for giving me the platform to tell them how I really feel about it, 

Toni Rose Deanon  16:02  
yeah? And I, and I love that too, like I'm over here, just like, yeah, say it louder for the people in the back, right? And, and another thing that I've come I've come to have come to terms with it as an English teacher, words are always going to change, right? Like, words are actually, like, whatever words will be, words, there's lots of connotations with different words. And so we'll shift to another one, right? So things are always changing, and like you said, it's all about advocating for the kids. And I like to believe that majority of our teachers and our stakeholders do want what's best for students, right? It's just like you said, that lack of education, that lack of challenge, right, and that fear of new things, right, fear of change and so. But I feel like ultimately, majority of the teachers right, really want what's best for students. They just need to be taught and be in a space where they feel brave enough to actually show up as themselves authentically and be receptive enough to change.

Dr. Shantha Smith  17:01  
I love what you said there. And so my work is doing that for teachers. Teachers need a break. Teachers have to be brave. Leaders have to be brave to take the risk, to engage in this work. They need a safe space. So my work is helping to teach, helping educators, leaders and teachers feel safe and brave enough to take the risk, to change the system, right? I think that that is important, that words do change, and it really is. My ELA background as well, right? We know that words are words, but at the at the core, if teachers thought that they were doing something wrong, they wouldn't be doing it right. Everything they're doing they think they are doing because they want to support and help students. So we just have to help educate. Because the system educated us one way, and it may have worked for some, it did not work for all, because if the system worked the way it is, why are the opportunity and academic achievement gap. So why? So why are we advocating for a system that clearly needs something different, and times are changing, and we have when we know better, we can do better and we know more. And so let's explore. Let's be curious. I tell educators when I'm in workshops, I didn't come so we can all Kumbaya and sing the same song lead together. I came so that you might be curious. These conversations are not being had you. I did not talk about this in my academic program. I've been through three different institutions, all engaged in conversations about education, and I did not have conversations about grading. I have a PhD, so I've done all the education. I went through all of these programs, and we may have talked about assessments, rubrics, we never talked about the actual systems and structures around grading. So I just want you to be curious and and find out well, if this is true, what else might be true? And this is how we engage in this work is to help people to explore for yourself, I can tell you, but it's better when you see for yourself. So giving teachers that agency and leaders that agency see, well, let's see, you want to create new systems and structures. Let's see, how might, how might we do that?

Toni Rose Deanon  19:14  
And it's also like the agency piece, and there's grace too, right? Like we have to give ourselves grace, we have to give each other grace as well. Because, again, this is not necessarily new, but it's very uncomfortable, right? And you know, you and I are talking about grading, because grading is such a hot topic, and a lot of the things that you're saying, it really aligns with MCP as well. Of like, hey, we really want to transform teaching and learning experiences for both teachers and students, and even our parents, our caregivers, all of our stakeholders, honestly, right? And so when it comes to grading, Dr Smith like, what have you seen? What are some trends that you've seen throughout the country with school leaders when it comes to grading policies? Because ultimately, I don't even know who creates the grading policies. Is it the. District, is it the school admin? I mean, teach me, because I don't know. 

Dr. Shantha Smith  20:06  
Well, one of the trends that I can tell you there, there are two pathways that I've seen that are the way people engage in this work. They start with the top down right, like this is what we're doing. Let's do the 50 minimum, and then all hullabaloo breaks loose, because they haven't done the necessary work to really make this grow, that they haven't planted the necessary seeds, right? They just said, this is what we're doing at teachers, listen, if you've been around a while, you've been around the block, especially our more seasoned educators, they have seen a lot, right? There's a lot of this mistrust, right? So a lot of times it's like they nod and, you know, saying that that classroom is aisle, and they go back, okay, this is what we're doing. Okay? We're doing it. And so then we I see people coming to us to help them right the ship, in a sense, because they set the policy, but it didn't land on fertile ground right. And then from the other side, we have people who are starting like I did, from the teachers and the educators who are like, I know this is something that we need to change, and so they start getting that groundswell and that that teacher buy in and focusing on, oh, this. Look what happens when we change this. Look what happens when we change that. So I see people who come to us who are like, we know something needs to change, help us, and we start with the people who are in the classrooms doing the work to see with students how this changes their outcomes. And so those are the two ways that I see it come people who come from the oh my goodness, we set off all types of bells and whistles because we tried to mandate something, or like we're getting this groundswell help us to engage. I prefer the latter. It is so much easier, because when I have to come in, when we our organization comes in from the top down, you've already shaken up a lot of mistrust, and so now we're having to do work to undo some of that negative impact that was already set forth, and start. It's a harder start. So it's much better when people say, let's listen to teachers, let's listen to students, and let's hear what they're saying, and let's see how we can work together, versus just dumping down something from the top and expecting things to change, because that's where all of the miscommunication, the misunderstandings and misconceptions come from. So those are the two ways that two trends I see, especially when you're starting to engage in shifting systems.

Toni Rose Deanon  22:51  
It's such a great example of good intentions and negative impact, right? Because, yeah, we have these intentions to make it quote, unquote better, but then we don't have the systems, like you said, to make sure that it all works out for everybody. And again, this is, like, one of the things where shout out to teachers. Y'all like, shout out to teachers and students who are like, No, we're going to do it this way, because this is how it works for us. I mean, that's how our movement got started. Dr Smith is like, MCP, you know, our co founders implemented it, and then they recruited more teachers to do it, and so the movement just kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger, because educators were the ones that were saying, No, this works. We want this, and then now we can educate our admin. That's cool, but like, this is the way that we want our students to learn and experience learning in the classroom. So I really love that you're naming the thing of like, mandating is, I mean, as an educator, I was also like, mandate, okay, whatever I'm gonna do what I want, because you're not gonna hold me accountable. It is what it is.

Dr. Shantha Smith  23:51  
You're honoring the voices of those people who are really knowledgeable, right? There are people who really want to make the system better, and even if they are don't understand, they want to make the system better so they're open and curious. And I love the again, the divinity of it all, because I watched a video about the modern classroom project. I saw the teachers, teachers starting this at Eastern Senior High School in Washington, DC, my hometown, and so I saw that video. Was like, this is perfect. That is how I moved in my classroom. That was what I did. I didn't have, unfortunately, modern classroom project to support me, but I got there, it's exactly so I felt a strong resonance. And I was like, this marries so well together, like the work that you all are doing and the work that we're doing, they go together and we'll talk, maybe we'll talk later about it, when we talk about the resource that I share with you all, is it? It is the the connection of the two, because grading is just the outcome, really. It really is all these other things that are happening in the classroom that we get to support teachers. Is to experiment with, because you can't overlay a new grading policy and hold those same systems and structures in place in your classroom. So in order to shift the grading practices, we have to shift everything that's happening in and around the classroom, starting with teachers minds and and that is what changes student experiences,

Toni Rose Deanon  25:22  
and that's such a great segue to my next to my next question. Dr Smith, and I'm going all over the place from the run of Show Notes y'all like because I just have so many follow up questions. And it is what it is. But my follow up question is that I often hear from our educators right who are first implementing our model, especially the mastery based grading and mastery based learning. Their question is always or concern rather, is like, oh, but they didn't do the work. So then why would I pass them if they were late, if they waited to the last minute to do it, they didn't listen to me while I was going over the instructions, right? There's, there's that tension there, and I'm feeling like there's a lot of it's a power dynamic, right? And this is, I think sometimes something that I also took away from your session, or maybe the book, is that it's really the only power that teachers have, right? Of like, Hey, if you don't do this, you're going to fail, kind of deal. What would you say to teachers who are hesitant because they're relinquishing that power, right? They're relinquishing that control and being comfortable and okay with you know what? My student may have turned this in late, but that does not mean that I take points off, because that actually does not show mastery. It just I took points off for being late. Does that make sense? What I'm trying to say? Dr Smith, 

Dr. Shantha Smith  26:42  
Oh, absolutely. Because really, one of the things that we have to understand is you're not relinquishing control, really. It really is. You're actually creating a more powerful environment when you actually are able to separate compliance and behaviors from the academic evidence. Oh, my God,

Toni Rose Deanon  27:03  
that was beautiful. That was beautiful. Oh my gosh, that was beautiful.

Dr. Shantha Smith  27:07  
What we want to do is really threefold. One. We want to move those compliance and behavior things out of the grade so that we can see what students no one can do, right? We need to be able to separate the two, and there are critical life skills that kids needs. We are not saying that collaboration is important, that timeliness is not important. However, a lot of times what's happening is like, from our perspective, I've been in education a long time, it's like, well, you should know how to do this, right? You're in 10th grade. You're in ninth grade, like, there's no grace, there's like, you should already know how to do this. I'm not going to teach you, because somehow, somewhere, you should have got it right. It wasn't explicitly taught to you. But we never connect the academics to how those things are supporting so if we separated it, parsed it out, actually give explicitly show you what that looks like, and maybe how it is impacting your academic evidence, maybe there will be more willingness on students to be able to say, Oh, this is important, right? And everybody is different, right? So what we do is we kind of do this blanket approach, like everybody needs to take notes or everybody needs to turn this in on time. But it doesn't really help people to see the individualization everybody has different ways that they learn different things are important. What we've created is a system that's so based on points and point hustling that kids are not really valuing the academic evidence or the learning. They're really just valuing the points. So it's creating this false narrative. Like me turning something in on time means I learned it. It doesn't right. It just means I thought this was worth more points. So I'm gonna turn that one in a time, or I don't think this is worth any so I'm not going to do that one on top, I have a very smart daughter, she will look at a syllabus in hospital. Oh, that's not worth anything. So I'm not doing that because she's been trained away from learning that the academic evidence in learning is important, and the system does that to all students. And so one separating that compliance and behaviors from the grade is critical, so that kids can understand what I know is important, and let me figure out the strategies and supports and tools that I need in order to be successful, and simultaneously, we still can have clear structures, deadlines, reassessment, real learning practices to help students to be successful, a more redemptive space in the structure in our classroom, so that kids understand like the learning is important. So we have to create new systems and structures so that students understand that learn. Learning is the goal, right? It's not about me being in control. That's the problem. The problem is we are trying to be in control of the students learning, when really what we want is to help students to be in control of their learning, right? This is just a microcosm of the world, right? We think about what's happening in the world, the power, the control everybody what happens? There's a lot of anxiety and fear and things that happen. People try to hold tightly to the power that they might see slipping away. Schools are just a microcosm of that. It's like, Oh, my God, I have to have control. What would I do if I can't control you with these points? We have to teach educators that, what other what way, what other ways are there that we can actually have the same impact? What about building community right in our classrooms and connection, and what about showing you where you are in your learning and having you take control? You know, one of the practices when we talk about the trends that we see with teachers. One of the practices is student trackers. How do we put students in control of their own learning? I don't have to be in control of your life. I need to teach you to be in control of your learning. So teachers that I told them this, I need them to do this, and I've actually do this. It's me, me, me, me. It's not about me, it's about them. How do we give them the control and show them that you have power over your learning. What do you need? How can I give you the tools so that we're working on the same side? I'm not working against you. We're working together, right? And so when you create an environment where I don't need to be in control of points and feel like if I don't do this, you're going to get a zero. I work with students who were already behind and had not reached proficiency. If you, if you've been a student, and I was one of those students, at some point, you're like child. That's just a nut attitude a bunch. You know, it's like an adult, just like you want to take, you want to take my I don't have the money. If I don't have it, I don't have it. Get in line with all the other bill collectors, like, whatever you just another number in a bunch. It's just like, there were students with zeros, right? It's like, yeah, you want me to come back and lunch? Good. So does everybody else you want me to come back after school? So does everybody else take a number? So how do we create these systems and structures. So we can just make it a different system altogether. Let's just figure it out. Why you here, right?

Toni Rose Deanon  32:28  
That's what we need. I mean, those are all. I mean, honestly, facts, facts, facts, right? Like, hey, we have 50 minutes or 45 minutes or 90 minutes with our students. Let's use that time intentionally and meaningfully and effectively, right? Because our students have lives outside of our classrooms, and if you think about it too, some students are taking 478, classes a day. That's wild y'all like we don't even do that much as an adult. So lots of grace here. And a couple of things that I wanted to follow up to Dr Smith is that when I when I hear the word should? It's a judgment already, right? For me, it's like, if you're telling me that I should do this, I'm gonna make sure I ain't doing it, because that's a judgment. And you should pick another word, another thing too, that I love to remind teachers that I work with as well is that, hey, we're just going to pretend that they've never learned how to do this, right? Because we cannot assume that students just know. Like, there's review, there's like, let's figure out what our kids already know, but let's not assume that they already know. So I really like that reminder, too. And another thing that came up for me is when it comes to grading, that's why rubrics are important, because then there's transparency. I also always tell my teachers that if you're going to have students do something, I need you to also do that thing that you want your students to do. So you can see what misconceptions and what problems you come up with as an adult. Or if you can't answer it, then you know the kids can't answer it. So it's like, what are those things of like, model, the expectations, right? And even giving examples of like, what it could look like, what the answer, what the task could look like, so students know exactly what your expectations are. I always say being transparent is like the hardest, but like hardest and easiest thing to do, I think. And then the learner variability. As far as yo learners, there's so many different ways to learn. Even as adults, we're constantly learning every day what will make us comfortable, what would make us successful in this learning journey that we're on. Right the part about valuing points? Dr Smith, this is something that really, really changed drastically in my classroom when I started implementing MCP, was because I told my students, the tracker is there. If you are mastering the concepts, you ain't got to worry about your grade. If you have a lot of revise and x's, maybe you need some help. But if you come at me asking, What grade did I get, I ain't telling you I don't know. Like, look. The tracker, right? You can, you can assume, based off of what you have on the tracker, if you are on track or not to pass, right? And so that was really hard for my students to to think about. And they're in sixth grade. Mind you, they were in sixth grade, so they were like, What do you mean, right? And so, but having those conversations, I was like, wow. Students really value points, especially our students who are advanced, Dr Smith, who have, like, mastered the game of school, right? Like you said, your your your own daughter, really good at figuring out which ones they need to, they need to do to get those points. And so what my more advanced students, my students who are just like, on point, they're like, Well, what can I do to get 100 What do you mean? I need you to get deeper into the topics and the conversations that we're having in the classroom. Then we can talk about like, whatever it is that you want to talk about right now, I don't need you to chase a number. Like, we're not chasing numbers here. We're chasing knowledge. You want to stay curious. You want to stay learning more and so. But that was also a shift for me as an educator, because now I couldn't say, right? Like you said, Hey, if you misbehave, if you're late, it's I'm gonna take 10 points off. I can no longer say that. So I had to really leverage my my relationship building with my students, really, and I was already pretty good at it, but I had to get even better, right? Like the motivation piece had to step in that, that getting to know them as human beings. Had to step in, because I could no longer threaten them, quote, unquote, with a bad grade, because that was just not going to work anymore. Because if I'm asking them to shift, I also had to shift right. I couldn't stay in the same mindset that I was doing and I taught nine years before implementing this model, right? And so reflecting back, I was like, wow, I caused so much harm when it comes to grading, and that really sucks. Like I want to apologize to my past students, because I did not do a good job of valuing learning over points. And so I really appreciate that, that reminder as well, and that that opportunity for me to reflect, and then as far as the student trackers, you were talking about too, right? I had a I had a guest. One of our teachers from New York City had talked about learned helplessness. That is something that we are aware of. There's learned helplessness, and when we get comments a lot of like, well, my students can't do this, or my students don't want to do this, or my students aren't able to do this because my students have IEPs and five oh fours or multilingual learners, right? There's all kinds of like, I don't wanna say excuses, because they are real, but also I think those are just barriers that we are comfortable hiding behind, right? And so thank you for all of this, and I just feel so empowered and even more insightful of like, how I can continue moving forward working with educators as well when it comes to grading. Yeah, all right. Dr Smith, if you could get, if you could get rid of one to two things when it comes to grading, I'm sure you have a list of 10. Okay, let's do two to three. What would you get rid of? Because I also have a list.

Dr. Shantha Smith  38:04  
Listen. I was just reading some Audre Lorde. Are you familiar with Audre Lorde?

Toni Rose Deanon  38:10  
Yes, yes, yeah.

Dr. Shantha Smith  38:12  
So I was listening to the master's tools. Cannot dismantle the master's house. Is one of her short essays in this book I'm reading sister outsiders, and in lieu of throwing the whole system away right, we have these small, incremental changes that we could make, right. And one of those things is what we talked about, separating behavior and compliance from the grade, if we start there and help teachers understand that there are ways to support students that don't mean I have to control them, and actually see the disservice that is doing if you ever have students, and I got to see this all the time with the students I work with, they're so unsure of themselves, they're looking at you for every single thing. Is this right? Is this right? Is this right? Right?

Toni Rose Deanon  39:05  
Because that's that's that learned helplessness. Dr Smith, like we've been hand holding forever, like we just do it so much that kids just depend on teachers.

Dr. Shantha Smith  39:15  
Now we are right. So because we're always pouring down it's like, I have all the knowledge. Let me give it to you. And if you're not listening, you're going to miss it. If you're not listening, then how will you get all this knowledge I'm trying to give you? And it is not it's counterintuitive, right? It's like, no, let me show you you can get it. It's holding. I really believe in warm, warm and demanding. My former principal, Dr Lori Wiggins, and I, we wrote an article about, like, how important it is to be warm and demanding. Like, no, I'm holding the expectation for you. I know you can do it. I see a version of you you don't see yet. I'm not going to water it down. I'm not going to, oh, he can't do it. I. Had teachers who would say, Oh, he can't do you need you were supposed to write five essays. Just do four. Oh, you didn't get four. Let's do three. If you could just do one and try to give you every word to put in things like, No, we have to give students. Help them build their self efficacy, help them know that they can do it. And we have to create structures, because what happens is, when we are managing every single behavior, punishing kids all along the way, that's why they feel like, oh my god, am I doing something wrong? We're not allowing space for them to make mistakes. We're not allowing them enough space to practice. There is no safe space, because every time you make a mistake, it is on display across every piece of paper you turn in, I'm looking at it like, huh, wrong, wrong. And then we wonder, why kids like, is this right? Is this right? Can I take this step? Because we haven't made it okay to take risk and make mistakes. So we have to shift the environment that students are in and that comes from instead of judging and being compliance heavy. How do we create an environment where students value their learning and understand what's important? And how does that what does that look like for me? How do I get the information which may be different from how John gets it and how Shaniqua gets it? It may be different. And what are those tools that I needed? That's what I needed, as a student to someone to say, not be quiet. I'm a talker. I make my living talking to people. I am a talker. So Shanta Sidney needs to spend more time on the academic side versus the social. They did not value me being a talker. Okay? Why? And I so when I wanted to learn through communication, they were telling me to be quiet and don't talk. So now I can't figure out the information I need, because that's the way that I would help me, right? But that wasn't value. So how do we help kids see what their strengths are, what they're good at, what what is it that they need? And use that to help you get the academic knowledge and learning that you need, right versus I have a prescriptive way you have to do notes. It looks like this very culturally specific ways of being that I think it looks like you're even when I started teaching, we used to say, give me five. Eyes are watching, ears are listening, hands are still active. Listeners, give me five or three, hands are still and in your lap, right? Very much. Being in control of this is the way it's supposed to be. But what if you need to be moving around like what if standing up, and you need to just get it out, right? If you have to sit like this, and now I'm spending all my energy sitting still focus, hands in my lap, and this is very hard. I can't think about what you're telling me to think about. I'm trying to keep my hands still, my eyes are watching, my ears are listening. That's enough. I now, how am I going to learn? Because I'm so busy focused on the wrong thing, and because you told me to right? So we have to create these structures that allows students to take risk, be free to make mistakes and show you that that's okay and that you can learn right. And that is our goal and our mission, to help help students, teachers and leaders figure out how to do that in their classrooms.

Toni Rose Deanon  43:20  
Dr Smith, you brought me back to, like, my teaching days in Baltimore City and DC, where it was like, slant right, like you had to be city. Sit it sit it up. Like you had to sit up. You had to look. It was ridiculous. And now I'm like an adult with ADHD, there's no way I would zone out. There's nothing that you could tell me if I have to sit up, look at you do all these things, right? So thank you for stating that, and also this, like productive struggle piece, right? Like we got to stop pouring, pouring, pouring, pouring on the kids, right? And that's why we're so exhausted every single day as educators, is because we're actually doing all of the work, and our students are not doing the work, because you're constantly giving them the answers, constantly giving them the support. When it's like, walk away. It's okay, walk away. I'll be back in five minutes, you know, like, it's all good. So, and I love this piece about warm demanders, because, again, I've seen this over and over, my students can't do this. There's no oh, this. This would work if my students were able to do blank right? And my response is always, you would be surprised at what your students are capable of doing when you have high expectations of them and and it's you know, and it's saying it in the nicest, gentlest way, but like we got to do better. We really do have to believe in our kids. And I always say that if you're trying to innovate, trying to shift, trying to transform your classroom. You can't do that if you do not believe in your kids. I highly, highly, highly, highly believe that, right? Like, really believe that. And so, so we're talking about things that you want to get rid of with grading. So Dr Smith, now the real question is, really, how do we communicate this with caregivers? Because. Is, you know, parents got a lot to say, baby, okay, they grew up one way, and you're telling me that grades are now not grades. Or you know what you're you're so many shifts, so many changes, right? So how would you communicate with caregivers so that our teachers feel a little bit more confident walking into mastery based learning. 

Dr. Shantha Smith  45:22  
What's interesting is it wasn't my experience through the process that we used at Gunston middle school that parents were going to be in uproar so that wasn't my lived experience, and I feel like when people are in uproars because they don't have the education when we do our workshops at through Christian Adult Education Group, we the first thing we start with is a history of grading activity where people share their own grading stories. 98% of the time, people share a negative story, so people know it's a problem. Parents are not surprised if they went to school here in the United States, in our system and our under our structures, they already know the problems that exist. So helping to communicate that message, I think that sometimes was we're not managing our message well, and when we're talking about leading and this work, we have to manage the message better and helping parents to understand, no matter who is for right? Some people think, Oh, this is for black and brown children. We're trying to lower the bar. That is an absolute lie. I've worked in independent schools, also across this nation, some very prestigious independent schools, and I've interviewed their students, and I had pages and pages of quotes from students around the stress that they feel, the academic pressure that they feel, and we talk about the mental health crisis that's happening with our students in this time and in this space. We do that through the pressures that we put that they don't feel safe taking risks either. So it really isn't a color thing. The student experience is clear, whether it's to help them be better owners of their learning and knowledge, whether it's to create an environment that's less stressful so that they can feel successful. This work benefits students, right? We have to help all parents understand what does this mean and look like for your child? Do you want to know when you want to know how accurate what you don't you want your students grade to be accurate? Do you not want to pay for all of those remedial classes because someone has been lying to you about where your student is and academically? Everybody would benefit from some I mean, let's call it thing, a thing. We have been lying to parents about where their students are, and depending if you know who, where you fall on the spectrum, you know, you the squeaky wheel gets the oil. I think to say it is right. So you just like raising Okay, don't mess with that parent. Give them the safe C or B. Don't you don't want to fail them because, you know, but we want parents to know where their students are. We don't want you paying for extra money financially because we've been telling you some untruths about we don't want your student dropping out of college because they can't meet the academic demands because they were doing so well, right? We want students to be successful, and we want them to be happy and healthy and in a safe environment, and we can create that. And unfortunately, through our current structures, we are really doing the opposite.

Toni Rose Deanon  48:32  
I mean, it's a great like cycle that you just said, right? It's, let me not talk at you, let me feel let me have the space where you can experience it, right, like learning about the history learning and reflecting back on your own grading experiences. It's so much more powerful than me saying grading policies are bad, right? Like you said, 80% of the time people share negative stories when it comes to grading, and so when they realize, like, oh, wow, yeah, just real problematic. Let me make some changes. So much better, so much better than than me telling them 

Dr. Shantha Smith  49:07  
we can bring caregivers along. We need them to just understand. I mean, understanding can cure a lot of different ills and help them understand what the system is like and the same system that caused you harm. We don't have to continue. There are other ways, and that's all they knew. But that doesn't mean we know better now, right? And so we can create different structures and systems, and helping parents understand what that looks like is easy.

Toni Rose Deanon  49:38  
I really like that reminder. Thank you so much. Dr Smith, so one last thing before I let you go, I know, because this has been such a great conversation you shared with us. This beyond the grade resource. Tell us more about it and listeners, we're going to link it in the show notes. You have access to it. 

Dr. Shantha Smith  49:54  
One of my missions is at the helm here as Crescendo Education Group is to really help everyone understand that I'm talking I say grading, but really, it's not just about grading. I really want people to understand it is affecting attendance. It impacts student motivation. When we do our work with teachers, the number one thing that teachers want to work on, if you're familiar with Joe's book, it's the three pillars are accuracy, motivation and bias resistant. And we have them choose which one of the practices is most important to them. Inevitably, 100 of the highest percentage is always about student motivation. We're killing student motivation because of the all the things we talked about previously, like punishing them all along the way, right? We want to know about instruction. We have to, we have to change how our classroom looks, doing things like you all do over at the bottom classroom project so that we can see where I am and I feel more safe taking the risk. I get to learn at my own pace, right? I'm getting to see what do I need to learn, and I get that individualized support and attention, and I'm not in competition with somebody. It really is about me and my learning journey, right? So that resource really just amplifies that. Although people say it's about mastery, that is the result of all the things that we're doing in our classroom, the structures and systems that we set up. So when we do our systems change partnerships, teachers are trying to experiment in their classroom, like, how do I change my retake structures? How do I create better assessments? Right? So although we say it's about mastery and grading, it's really all the things that teachers are doing in their classroom, tangible things that are helping to create the change, right? When I interview students, one of the biggest concerns students have is that the test and what they practice are not in alignment. So they're not doing well on the assessment, but they're doing well on their breast, and now they're confused, right? So now teachers have to say, Uh huh. Let me look at this assessment and this practice that I'm giving. Are they a match? So we're looking at these things. So although we say grading, I don't think people we say enough how the grading is just the outcome. Really, it is all the things that we support teachers to do in their classroom. Build those relationships. Students have better relationships with people who are actually on the same team working to help you reach a target, than someone wagging the figure saying you did this wrong, you did this wrong, you did this wrong. So we're creating better classroom relationships. Maybe students will want to come to class if they didn't feel like they were being punished every time they step in the door. So we're creating better teacher student relationships. So although grading is an outcome, I really want help people see beyond the grade. I want people to see that grading is the result of all the other things that we are doing in our classroom, the systems and structures, the curriculum. I'm bored to tears. No, they're not lazy. They're bored. They are bored to tears. Let me tell you, I know we gotta go, but I gotta tell you this quick story, my daughter needed to I told her she had to wash the dishes before she went outside, right? And I want the Starbucks, but the dishwasher is broken. You know, these new kids, they don't understand the old age way, right? I was like, Girl, back in my day, we use what's called a dish rag, okay, and you bust those suds. There were no dishwasher. So I walked to Starbucks, and when I came I said, you're not going to wear until these dishes are done. When I came back, my daughter had gone to YouTube fix the dishwasher because she she liked to spend her time fixing the dishwasher, because she means she won't go wash those dishes. So I say that to say kids love learning, they will go down a rabbit hole learning something that they're interested in that is relevant to them and meaningful. We have to tap into that, access that, right? We kids love learning. So how do we make sure that our classrooms are providing culturally relevant, sustaining pedagogy, that we're using those things so that the grade will be different, so that the outcomes can be different. Okay, I will be quiet. 

Toni Rose Deanon  54:12  
That's so lovely. It's so that's such a great story, and that just makes me laugh so hard, because it's like you had this expectation they were going to do, and then they went above and beyond, like she went above and beyond. Fixing the dishwasher like that is amazing. And that, again, this resource is really, really, really powerful, too. So I'm excited for our listeners to take a look at this. And so thank you for your expertise. Thank you for your experiences. Dr Smith, thank you for your stories and your laughter and all that good stuff. And so if our listeners want to get a hold of you. What would be the best way to do that?

Dr. Shantha Smith  54:43  
I am on LinkedIn at Dr Shantha Smith. I think I gave you my link so they can connect with me on LinkedIn, or you can reach us at crescendo education group.org, you can send us an email and I. I'm excited to connect with anyone in the industry who wants to shift and be on this mission to shift grading. And I'd like to just say thank you. Thank you for being who you are and a natural connector and just really inviting me here into this space. And I don't take it lightly that you offered this opportunity to me to share, and so thank you so much for that. I'm really, I'm truly humbled and grateful that you allow me this time to share.

Toni Rose Deanon  55:29  
Oh, Dr Smith, this is we're going to continue collaborating, because there's so much alignment here, and there's so much like energy and vibes here too, right? Like i i mix, and we're in the same state. Y'all, we're in the same state

Dr. Shantha Smith  55:44  
in the universe. When I found out that you are just down the street from me, and I'm from Washington, DC, and we and you've been in DC, and we both landed here in the A Well, you're from, you're actually from here, right? Are you from? 

Toni Rose Deanon  55:57  
Yes, South Georgia, baby.

Dr. Shantha Smith  56:00  
Both back, back here in in the Atlanta area, and so I'm excited about continuing to connect with you. So I just really, I'm grateful.

Toni Rose Deanon  56:10  
Yes, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. And, yeah, take care. Dr Smith, I read just really, really appreciate you. Thank you so much. Have a great day.

Zach Diamond  56:23  
MCP, thank you so much for listening. Listeners, remember, you can always email us at podcast@modernclassrooms.org and you can find the links to topics and tools we discussed, as well as more info on this week's announcements and events in the show notes for this episode at podcast dot modern classrooms.org We'll have this episode's recap and transcript uploaded to the modern classrooms blog on Friday, so be sure to check there or check back in the show notes for this episode if you'd like to access those. And if you enjoy our podcast and it's been helpful in supporting you to create a blended, self paced, mastery based learning environment. We would love if you could leave a review that does help other folks find our podcast. And of course, you can always learn the essentials of our model if you want to go beyond the podcast through our free course at Learn dot modern classrooms.org and you can follow us on social media at modern class proj, that's P, R, O, J, we are so appreciative of all the hard work you do for students and schools. Have a great week, and we'll be back next Sunday with another episode of the modern classrooms project podcast. You

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