Zach Diamond  0:03  
Foreign Welcome to the modern classrooms project podcast each week we bring you discussions with educators on how they use blended, self paced and mastery based learning to better serve their students. We believe teachers learn best from each other, so this is our way of lifting up the voices of leaders and innovators in our community. This is the modern classrooms project podcast.

Toni Rose Deanon  0:29  
Hello and welcome to the modern classrooms project podcast. My name is Toni Rose Deanon, they them pronouns, a designated high person here at MCP, and I am joined by a 34 year educator and instructional technology specialist, Zena Brown, welcome Zena.

Zena Brown  0:46  
Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here. Modern classroom project is like one of my fav five, and so just to be able to talk about it is a really thrilling experience.

Toni Rose Deanon  0:57  
Yeah. And, you know, I don't even know how we met, really, but I know we've connected in person already, and, oh, it was a shades of excellence. Alliance meetup, Xena, we were on, yeah, we were on virtually. And then I was like, Hey, I'm in Alabama, you're in Georgia. I'm going to go to this conference. Are you going to be there? And you said yes. So I was like, oh, bet that's so cool. So that's, that's kind of how you and I met. Now that I'm reflecting on it, it's really, it's just a really great journey there of how we got into each other's spaces. So again, it's really exciting to be in this space with you so that we can memorialize some of the conversations that you and I've had off Mike and so thank you so thank you so much for saying yes to the podcast. And then, before we get started, something that I really like to start with, to kind of get us grounded, is what is bringing you joy currently?

Zena Brown  1:49  
What is bringing me joy currently? Um, actually, I think the challenge of being a guest on the podcast today is kind of cool. I am working on stretching myself and moving into different spaces. So taking the challenge of being on the podcast is, like exciting, little nervous, but still exciting. So I think that's what I'm going to go with. And I do have all my kids, which they're all home from school. That's always exciting, too. But I like this idea of, okay, let's, let's do something different today. 

Toni Rose Deanon  2:23  
Yeah, no, it's a conversation, right? Like you and I have keyed it up a lot. The difference is that we've hit record so that folks can kind of hear about or hear conversations, right? So, you know, tell us more about who you are and how you started your MCP journey. 

Zena Brown  2:40  
Oh, so, as you said, I'm an educator. I've been in education 34 years. Originally, I'm from Grand Rapids, Michigan, so it was a little different when I moved to Atlanta. I moved with two of my sisters, and I began as a fifth grade classroom teacher in a school called Clara Maxwell Pitts, which has since been plowed down to the ground. It's a field, and it did not have air conditioning. So I taught in Atlanta in a school with no air from there, fifth grade to eighth grade to middle school, and then they decided they're going to start putting computers in the classroom. And my eighth grade students, we all kind of like came together and said, you know, Miss Brown, or was Miss Fleming then. But they were like, You really like computers. We kind of think you should look at that computer stuff. And so from there, I pursued my master's in instructional technology. I became an instructional technology specialist, and it is, as a matter of fact, when I started, I think there were eight of us that all started at the same position, and I am the only one that is still an instructional technology specialist coach. So I've gone from the school system to now I'm at Kennesaw State University with a group called I teach and we are instructional technology specialists, but as everything, we've morphed into coaching instructional technology specialists, creating curriculum for different corporations that have an educational arm, as well as working with different school system in Different states. So that's where I am for today, next month, it may have morphed into something else.

Toni Rose Deanon  4:25  
Now, I really love the different types of hats that you have worn throughout your education journey, and so, you know, I'm really curious as well. Like, how did you hear about MCP? Because you were kind of like a lone wolf in Georgia for a while, right?

Zena Brown  4:40  
So this is really bad. I am notorious for clicking on stuff on my Facebook page, and so I feel like it must have come across and I clicked, no, it was Edutopia. There was an article about Edutopia, and it talked about modern classroom project and. So I will be a rabbit down a hole following something. And in that 34 years, you know, there's always some new way to teach. And people were talking about personalized learning in it was, it was like a moment in the sense that I felt like modern classroom project made personalized learning, self paced learning, mastery based, learning, just manageable, like a teacher could do this. You You can bring this into your classroom, because everyone makes it fuzzy, going, Yeah, you'll have 34 kids, and everyone will be in a different place. And you, if you're a good teacher, you can manage it. And it was just like there are tools that need to be involved in it, and that's what modern classroom project was, for me. It was, this is a space where students can move at their own pace, but have that check in and that support from their teacher.

Toni Rose Deanon  5:54  
Yeah, that Edutopia got a lot of views. Folks really, really love that Edutopia, and it's such a great resource for folks also just see witness and hear what modern classroom could look like in their in their in their classes, right? So thank you for sharing that I, too was an educator who clicked on all the things and wanted to see all the things, figure out what I could implement in the classroom myself to make it a little bit more exciting and inclusive and innovative, right? So thank you for sharing that. Now for this episode, we're talking about edu protocols, right? And this was something that you and I were having brunch or breakfast one morning, and you know, we were talking about your skill set and and you had mentioned edu protocols. And now, mind you, this is new for me, new ish. I've heard our community talk about edu protocols, but I myself don't know much about it, so I'm really curious about learning more about this edu protocols. So before you know, before anything else, what is edu protocols? What is the core idea behind it? And then how do they complement self pacing? Because you said, like, Oh man, this works really, really well together.

Zena Brown  7:04  
So edu protocols is a framework, so they're really kind of insistent, like frameworks as opposed to, this is an activity, and it combines those 4c of critical thinking, collaboration, creativity, and my little lost, my little fourth C. But those 4c are in there, and they are one I like, because they're named framework. So you tell your class, this is the framework that we're getting ready to engage in. And because you take the time to make sure they understand the process, they know what you're getting ready to do, and particularly in a self paced environment, if they get to where their assignment is, like in modern classroom, project, they're going to see, oh, I need to do a sketch and tell so I know the steps, I know the amount of time, I know the tools that I need, and I know The content that I'm supposed to display in this particular assignment. There's probably 16 or so different frameworks. Each framework has something called a recipe card, a recipe card, and so the students are able to see, oh, I do this individually. I'm going to have a template, I'm going to have some content that I'm going to read and I'm going to produce this right here. And it's been really exciting, and working with some of my teachers to see the students come in and be like, Oh, we're doing a new unit, so we must be getting ready to do the fast and curious activity, which means we're going to make sure we know all of our vocabulary and our concepts like they're anticipating it. And I love that it shifts the onus to the students in that they know the steps of a process where every day, you're kind of going through the directions, and you always have that student that raises their hand going, what, what are we going to do? And I think one of the other things that's interesting with edge of protocols is they're very kind of transparent in that this isn't going to really flow until you've done it, like your fourth time or your fifth time, which I like the honesty in that becoming internalized, where you feel like some things are I saw it On the video. I implemented it in class, and it fell apart. And they're going, Nope, you want to start small. You want to start with something that's familiar, content wise, because you're going to focus on the process.

Toni Rose Deanon  9:33  
Okay, so, yeah, this got me thinking about some of the conversations that I have with teachers as well, right? Of like, Hey, start out small when you're implementing self pacing, blended learning and mastery based learning, and then also just a reminder that it's not going to be perfect the first time, you're going to have to reiterate over and over and over again, and I think that's it. With any framework, with any model, with any teaching, right? We're always reiterating because our students are different. Our students needs are different, and things. Pop up surprisingly and maybe sometimes not a surprise, right? So I really love this concept, too. And I did a quick Google Zena, it says that the fourth C is communication. So these are actually beautiful skills that we want our students to continue practicing and doing, so that when they leave the four walls of our classroom and out of the K 12 system, right? Like they become these productive and these productive individuals, right? And positively productive, if that makes sense. So like the whole concept of critical thinking, collaboration, creativity and communication, I love that. And so how did you come across edu protocols? Because I know that you had said, like, Hey, I help teachers. I help my teachers actually implement eduprotocols. So how did you come across it? 

Zena Brown  10:48  
You know what it's going to be. I think it showed up on my Facebook feed. There's no way around, I know. And you know once you click, now that I've got all these things coming, but I do think it was on my Facebook feed. But the other thing that I want to say about edu protocols and modern classroom projects both is their Facebook groups. So I put those into my top two spaces where you can enter those groups and people will share. They will share their lessons. They will share their struggles. They were shown, they will share their ideals. And so that's what started me into this, hearing that there were frameworks. And then, I know it sounds silly, but just having them have names, because now, when I go in a classroom and say, we're going to do a sketch and tell it's like they they know what's going on? They know, I watched a teacher do something, and a student got out of I actually had asked a student to go help other people because they were finished. And the teacher was like, Why are you out of your seat? And I was like, because he can go and help other people. That means, instead of two teachers in the classroom, there's now three. Oh, wait, another person's done. Now there's four teachers in the classroom. And so Ed, your protocols lends itself to that too. Of the collaborations of students helping other students with the content and checking their work themselves.

Toni Rose Deanon  12:17  
And I'm glad that you brought up MCP, our model as well, right? You know, we talked about, I'd ask about self pacing. How does that? How would that work? Zena, like, how does that look, as far as you know, the different types of activities with eduprotocol and then self pacing,

Zena Brown  12:33  
so that some of that. So some of the activities would be our kind of collaboration. You need a partner or whatever. But other activities are done individually, so something like a sketch and tell so you're given a video. So we did it with constructive and destructive forces. So it was like a 32nd video. And then the students watched this situation, and they had to identify by drawing rather they felt it was a constructive or a destructive space. And then if you have someone who's in the same place as you are on your the tracking with modern classroom project, then you can discuss with them and have a dialog about why this is my point of view. And then you're going to summarize on your own. So those people that are in the same spot as you they created a space where you can have collaboration. You can check each other's work or encourage, I want something different than check each other's work, but you can have someone check your progress, give you feedback that I think is a better way to say it. And so the activities can be that way, where if we're in the same spot and we need to do an Iron Chef activity, then I'm going to pick someone that's in the same spot. Most of the activities take place over a day, so if the next day, your partner is in a different place, you're okay, because you would have had the time to complete that activity. 

Toni Rose Deanon  13:59  
Oh, okay, yeah, I'm seeing a lot of enhancing each other's frameworks, right? Like, that's, that's really, that's really, that's that that's incredible. And now I'm curious too. You know you talked about the Facebook group. Thank you for giving our Facebook Group A shout out, because there are now over 20,000 teachers in there, and, like you said, constantly sharing resources, questions, challenges, all of those good things. So now I want to go check out edu protocols to see like, Hey, how's that group going? So thank you for for, you know, putting me on for that. So you know, what are? What are a couple of your favorite edu protocols, and how do they specifically enhance a self paced learning environment? We're gonna keep going back to this self paced learning environment only because, like you said, it really does enhance the self pacing piece. And then there's this collaboration piece as well, right? I Zena, the concept, or the thing that you brought up about collaboration is so important, right? Because we want students to collaborate authentically and even like. Uh, you know, intentionally as well, right? Or like us telling them, like, hey, now you're working in this group together. But I love that there's ownership of like, look, let's look at the pacing the Progress Tracker and see who's all there. So then we can create our own group. You don't actually have to wait on the teacher to create the group for you, right? So, yeah, tell me your favorite, your favorite edge of protocols, and then how to how does it enhance the self pacing environment?

Zena Brown  15:27  
So I think one for me that's like in the critical space is the fast and curious. So this can be done through quizzes, gym kit, some type of space where it can be self paced, and it's a space where students are learning the vocabulary and the concepts. One of the things we were finding this year is students didn't have the academic language for what they were learning, which becomes an issue, because the assessment is going to use the academic language, and so a fast and curious is kind of maybe a 10 question quizzes. So that's something that students can do individually as they're progressing through an activity in modern classroom projects. Now we also kind of made it a little competitive, so that at different points we would look at like the class average. So if you're a teacher that has multiple math classes, then students can look at, okay, this is the average for this class or that class. I had one, one student come in, like, he threw his book, his book bag on the counter, like, let's get to going, because I see the other class is two points closer to us percentage wise. So we need to sit down and focus. So that is kind of, to me, an edge of protocol that you would probably use at the beginning, because you want to kind of get that check in on how students are doing with their academic language, on the content. And then another one is Iron Chef. So Iron Chef, I learned the hard way, because it's kind of all packaged together really neat, and you're like, at the end of 10 minutes, everyone should have a presentation. But I learned you also have to check in, because it's also the worries of teachers when they hear about edge protocols. It's a worry when they hear about modern classroom project, of feeling like the teachers just going to be sitting at our desk with their feet kicked up reading a book and going, No, no, you need to be up and still moving around and checking on your students. So Iron Chef is where you jigsaw. So each student has a piece of the content and but we have a single presentation. So you have slide one, I have slide two. You may be telling me about naming numerators in terms of fractions. I may be looking up denominators. And so we're going to be answering questions. It's called Iron Chef because it also has like a special ingredient. So one of the things we did when we were doing measurement for the special ingredient was the students had to go around the classroom and find something to measure, either in feet or inches, or something they could decide you would use our yard or miles, kinds of things. And then what happens is that's done within a 15 minute time frame. So again, with modern classroom project every day, we may have a different people, different students at the same level, but that activity can be completed in a single session. So then once we put that together, we've now got a presentation, and everyone can share their voice on their content. And then what happens is you start to build that library where now I'm listening to you explain fractions in your words, and I'm explaining fractions in my words. And you know how someone can tell you the same thing, but you don't really hear it until that third person says it just the right way. So we're creating that community of knowledge where you've got multiple opportunities to hear content, and and hopefully it you're like, that one person explained unit fraction, just right? And it clicked for me, and now I'm ready for the next step. 

Toni Rose Deanon  19:09  
And, like you said, it kind of, it goes back to the four things that edu protocol, right? Like, there's critical thinking involved, there's collaboration happening, there's creativity, and then there's that, this communication piece, right? And I really the two things that you mentioned, the fast and curious and the Iron Chef. It really does highlight all of those. I also really like the fact that you said repetition. This is something that I've been kind of hyper focused on. Is like as adults, as humans, we need to hear something seven times before it sticks and it could. It may have to be seven different ways of, you know, hearing and gaining that knowledge. And so it's really nice to hear that like, oh, the students are the teachers also right, like they are learning from each other. And it's really great to hear too, because I know that I always tell my students, if you can talk about it, you can be about it, right, if you can get someone else to understand what it is that. Learning, then that means you have, you've actually mastered that concept, right? So these are, these are great. I love it. It's fast and curious and Iron Chef, yeah, okay. I love that. I love that I don't have anything else to add on except like that. So it's really dope. Thank you for for covering your favorite eduprotocols. How many are there. I'm curious because you did you named two. Are there a lot of them?

Zena Brown  20:25  
So I would, yeah, so there's, there's about like 16 of them, and then people morph them into different shapes and sizes. So like there's one. One of the things with modern classroom projects is you always kind of have that group check in, where we're pulling everyone together. And so there's something called thin slide. And this is honest to goodness. This is a goal is you get one minute. I need you to find one picture and one word that would cover what we discussed today, or what this unit is meaning for you. So you give the students one minute, one picture, one word. Then when the minute is up, you go over. So you'll do that in a collaborative presentation space. Then when the minute is up, you will display each student's slide, and they get 10 seconds to stand up and say, This is my picture. This is my one word. And you go around the class, and the ideal is like that activity 10 minutes, kind of thing. So that's where you you brought the class back together, and then you're like, 123, break everybody, go back to their own lesson. But you've had kind of that check in on on how are we doing? And you've seen other students do it,

Toni Rose Deanon  21:35  
yeah, and it's so much better than saying, what did you learn? What is your takeaway? Right? Because a lot of the time, students, I know my middle schoolers, would say, idk, nothing so to say, to provide this option of, hey, one minute, one picture, one word, to figure out, like to showcase what you've learned, right? I love that. And it also shows our students to be concise, right, straight to the point with a 10 second pitch. So that's the communication piece as well, right? And the listening to each other as well. Okay, love that. That is so great. And you know, you'd mentioned a misconception already of, you know, when it comes to EDU protocols and self pacing, there is misconception that teachers are just sitting back in their chairs and just feet up, chilling, right? No need to be there, and that is so like that is just not true. I know for me, I was busier than ever, but in the most beautiful way, because I wasn't utilizing my energy in a way that I was like correcting behaviors or repeating myself over and over again, but I was pulling small groups. I was pulling, you know, I was doing one on ones with students, so it was really intentional, but I was moving. I was very much like, I need to work with this group of with this group of students. I need to check in with this person as well, or this person was absent, so I need to go sit with them as well. But what other misconceptions or challenges can teachers face when they're trying to implement both edu protocols and self pacing?

Zena Brown  23:06  
So I think kind of even expanding a little bit more on the checking the students. So the first time I did it, the suggestion is, you do we did like our favorite food, so then we weren't losing in terms of content. And I realize you are checking all the way through the process, because when we watch the student presentations, it was like, okay, they don't know that concept at all. I wonder what happened. And it was realizing because I was not up checking and moving around in that process, because that it was my first time, and so, so I learned from my own mistakes. I think other things is it is trusting the ideal that you need to do it multiple times and then trusting that that then makes it become the student's own learning that when you you just need to say the name, and then they're going to know this is a partnership we're going to have. When we started our next unit, and we didn't start with fast and curious, with going over the concepts, one student was like, that's that's not how we start the unit. Like we should be learning this vocabulary and, like, getting a chance to quiz ourselves and make sure we know the words for the unit. So that was, that was like, okay, like, the belief is that it would stick. Well, now there's the evidence, because the student is saying we didn't start with it. Like, how am I going to learn all the concepts and vocabulary unless I get to compete, which is really important every now and then. So I think those are things about it. It is, I don't think it's a misconception. It's a lot of work. That would definitely be one of the discussions in the Facebook group. Is that edge Pro? I mean, I. The modern classroom projects is, yeah, you can't go into it like, Oh, I'm going to start it next week. You got to think it through. 

Toni Rose Deanon  25:07  
And I think that's where the intentionality comes in, right? Xena, we we really have to backwards plan, like, we have to be prepared, showing up for for our students. And so it's just really great that I'm hearing this from you. And you know another thing that you said about how you had created a task, right? And then the students were just not getting what they weren't getting. And and so what I was thinking too, is something that I tell my educators all the time is like, if you have a task, go do that task. So you know exactly what you're doing. Hi, we have a we have a guest. Hello. He was making sounds, okay,

Toni Rose Deanon  25:49  
no worries, no worries. Um, but no, I was just saying, you know, I tell our I tell the educators that I work with all the time is that when you create a task or an assessment that you want students to do, to complete, make sure that you do it first, so you know exactly what the misconceptions of students and the things that students could struggle with. And then I would also even say, like, provide an example of what you want the students to create and so, so that they know, so that you wouldn't waste time of like, oh, wait, I asked this, but then nobody got it. So I don't know what the missing piece was, but yeah,

Zena Brown  26:27  
so I, as you were explaining that or discussing that, one of the things that stuck out to me, and it's probably from an educator I met on Facebook, she has the students turn their assessment over and allows them to write things that they know that she didn't ask them during the assessment. 

Toni Rose Deanon  26:46  
Ooh, I love that. That's so cool. I mean, it's a great way to retrieve information as well, right? I'm a huge fan of retrieval practice, so hearing that, that's so great, that's so great because that's another opportunity for students to showcase what they learned, what they thought was important in that lesson or the unit, right? That's really cool, yeah,

Zena Brown  27:09  
because we actually had a situation where we we really thought our kids were ready for an assessment, and it did not go well in in talking with the students. It was they thought they were, you know, they they were like we thought they were would be asking us different things than what they asked us in in realizing they needed a space to Like share, what did you know, and we didn't ask you that other question. 

Toni Rose Deanon  27:33  
And I think that's why it's important, too, that your practice aligns with the assessment, right? Because I often hear that from students as well of like, you know, hey, we did this thing, we learned all of this thing, but then they didn't even ask any of the things that we were doing for practice. So that's another beautiful thing about our model, too, is that, like, the practice needs to be aligned with the assessment, right? Like, the assessment should not be a surprise to students. It is something that they've already seen, they've already felt, that they've already experienced. And it may be different numbers, maybe different content, right? But at least it's a skill that they've been practicing, that they can now do on the assess, on the assessment.

Zena Brown  28:12  
And I so being so one of the other things with me in modern classroom project is I actually did the mentoring ship as well, and you all were really good at helping me go Wow. Your assessment and your learning might need some bridging, so that they connect correctly and so. So it was not a walk in the park. It was a challenge and but it it gave me that experience that you're talking about, of making sure that you begin with the end in mind, in that my instruction is going in that direction,

Toni Rose Deanon  28:45  
right? And that's, that's, I feel like that's a skill that's not explicitly taught to teachers, right? It's just kind of like, oh, okay, here practice, here's the assessment that's already provided by the curriculum. Have fun. And that's where a lot of our students get really stressed out, and then frustrated and then disheartened, because there's like, oh, I studied, but then none of the things that we actually studied and went over was on the assessment. So thank you for pointing that out about the mentorship program too. Like, we really hone in and like, say your practice need to mirror your assessment. So okay, great. Now, what's one piece of advice you'd give to a teacher just trying to explore integrating edu protocols into a self paced classroom? Because, again, those are like self pacing is already hard itself teaching is hard. And then you do self pacing, that's like another hard, another challenging layer, right? And then there's edu protocols as well. So what would be a great pebble, right, small pebbles that a new teacher could start implementing.

Zena Brown  29:46  
So after your direct instruction with modern classroom project, think of eduprotocols as that's where they're going to learn and practice the content that you're teaching them. So I'm learning about fractions. Because I'm going to watch another video, and you're going to give me questions that I need to answer that go with this video, or in something like the SIR, where they have the three questions that they're answering, so there's going to be a claim and evidence, and then their response to it. So that is going to be where you are giving them text. We were actually doing edu protocols with DBQs. There we go. And that was a lot of intense content, but we broke it into pieces. And so it is not that you have activities and then you do an edge protocol framework. Your edge of protocol framework becomes the task that they're doing on your modern classroom. Projects, Tracker, ding,

Toni Rose Deanon  30:54  
ding, ding, ding, ding, that's where, like the light bulb moment just now has turned on for me. And that makes so much sense. That makes so much sense. What? Okay, so then you know, for folks who are brand new, I know that you had shared a resource with us about edu protocols, right? Do you want to tell us a little bit more about that?

Zena Brown  31:15  
So the resource I shared, again, like I said, they are really good with sharing their content. They do have a membership. You could join. It's like a lifetime membership, which is always great, because then you don't get billed every month and all that kind of stuff. But they also have 10 free templates of their protocols. So between Googling, searching on YouTube and the free templates, you really could make some deep progress into utilizing edge of protocols in the classroom. And then again, the Facebook group, there were people that will they will share, this is my lesson. I've gone on there and said, I need a science lesson for fifth graders that have to do deals with electricity. And someone's like, check this person out. Look this person's name up, kind of thing. So yeah, the free templates you they probably could carry you the whole year.

Toni Rose Deanon  32:09  
Yeah, and this is another reminder to lean in on your community too, right? So if you're trying to do something new, go find that group who's already doing it and lean in and lean on and then continue to share resources with each other. Because I know in our own Facebook Group, we've had a couple of folks post about edgy protocols, asking, Hey, does anyone have any experience with this? How do you align it with modern classroom? How do you use both things in the classroom? And so I think you did a really great job of just giving us ideas on how to have those two things combined in the classroom. So now I'm curious about assessment. How does that look like? How does it look, as far as being able to assess student learning and progress when you're using edge of protocols and then also self pacing,

Zena Brown  32:53  
so the result itself is your assessment. So when you're looking at the student that did this sketch and tell and in that particular case where we did constructive and destructive forces, there was a cliff that there was like a landslide, but the pressure also pushed up this mound that was 15 feet. So ideally in that space, students would have said the video showed both constructive and destructive. So the activity, when they're summarizing their thought, is creating the content that you're going to look at as in terms of evidence of their learning you're going to be looking at the picture that they drew, and how did they explain what they saw. So the activities, or that the frameworks, in and of themselves, are your assessment. There isn't like a 10 question edge of protocol, thing, activity, but, but the the final presentation that the students put together when they're doing the Iron Chef, or when they're doing their claim, evidence and reasoning, the way that they looked at it from three different perspectives that becomes your assessment, in terms of your formative assessment on how the students are doing.

Toni Rose Deanon  34:07  
So I have a question about rubrics and point system, right? So you have the different edu protocols. Does it come with rubrics or point system or anything like that, or is it really just open ended for teachers to figure it out on their own or utilize what they already have.

Zena Brown  34:23  
So the I haven't seen any rubric, so let me just go ahead and say that I was trying to think if I could think of something, but the answer is no. I suppose, in our creativeness as teachers, we would probably chat GPT rubric. We do have a conversation with my AI usage and edge of protocols are very familiar, and so that would probably be where I would start. I'm trying to think of some of the results like, especially when you talk about the mastery based learning part, because we've discussed this. Self paced is creating a space for students have the opportunity to correct themselves in a part of a presentation or an activity that they've done. I would like to see that kind of experience with the edge of protocols where you're saying okay in this sketch and tell I see that you've got destructive forces. Watch the video again and see if you can tell me if you see something else happening. Because that's the whole thing with modern classroom project, is that I get these multiple times this iteration to learn the work. And so I would want the edge protocols to be in that same space where I get to demonstrate mastery.

Toni Rose Deanon  35:41  
Yeah, no, yes. I you know you called out chat GPT for rubrics. And something that I'm thinking about too is that it's really important for students to see those rubrics beforehand. I y'all Please show the rubrics before the unit ends. Like, if anything, that was part of my intro for my units in my classes, is like, Hey, this is a rubric. This is what you're going to be graded on based on the assessment that we have. This is also your assessment. So you know from day one of that unit what the assessment is and what the rubric is. And then there are also times where my students would look at the rubric and they'd give me feedback and say, like, this doesn't make any sense. This doesn't align. How do you do this? How do you do that? So then creating this space again, to collaborate, to communicate, to critically, think and analyze something that a teacher is creating, but a student has now feel empowered and advocate for their needs and their curiosities, right? So I really highly recommend y'all have the rubric ready before you roll out the unit in front of the students, so that students are aware of how they're going to master what they're going to master in your unit. Okay? So please, please, please, have those rubrics out. Another thing that I had a question about a follow up is that, are there exemplars? So for example, you're talking about the talent sketch, right? That's what it's called. Am I sketch and tell? Sketch and tell I was messing it up. Okay, sketch and tell, is there an exemplar where students can see, oh, this is what it's supposed to look like, or is it open ended? Because there is that creativity part of eduprotocols,

Zena Brown  37:17  
so there would be, for the teacher examples that they can see ahead of time, and a lot of the edge of protocols, because again, this is going to be maybe at the beginning of your school year, where you're going through the process. So you're going to be demonstrating and modeling for them. There's one called eight parts, where it's sort of the eight parts of speech, and you start out with an academic picture and a three sentence word, and then from there, we're going to model, what are nouns that describe what's going on, what are verbs that are describing what's going on? What are interjections? And then the students are going to create a paragraph. But the idea with Edge protocols is that first time you're going to lead the students, and then that second time we're going to collaborate, and that third time, we may fill out the framework, but then you're going to do the final activity yourself. So what I would say is that as you get into this, there's probably going to need to be some whole group spaces in your tracker where you're saying, let me introduce a new framework to you, and then when you see it further down the tracker, you're going to know what it is, but I might have to stop and do that whole group,

Toni Rose Deanon  38:21  
yeah? And I was even thinking you could do that whole group and record a video so that students can go back and re watch that framework, right? Like, hey, we did it live. And here's a quick, like, three, four minute video that you can watch to refer whenever you need to. I am all about having a video so that I don't have to repeat myself. You know, like it's honestly just me. And then I'm always talk thinking about folks who are absent and can't make it live, right? And then I freak out about it, and I'm like, with a video, at least I know that they're going to be able to access that when they're back, or if they really wanted to, they can access it at home if they're if they're able to, right? So, yeah, I'm also a huge fan of exemplars. Y'all like, I was forced to make exemplars when I implemented the model, and it changed, just like my teaching and learning practice, because I was like, Oh, I'm actually creating this piece where students can see what it could look like. It doesn't stifle the student's creativity, but it gives them a little bit more guidance. Of like, Oh, this is what you expect from me, right? Because what we don't want to happen is that you create you, you create a task for student, and then they don't understand it. It's not clear, and then they have to redo it again, because the instructions, and, you know, the instructions weren't clear. So that we are, like, the common denominator in that, in that case. So it's like, let's go ahead and have clear, transparent expectations and exemplars, so that students feel less afraid to try something. So okay, the what a great conversation. Okay, well, Zena, what do you hope to see in the future? I would. Goals do you have? 

Zena Brown  40:00  
Oh, wow. What do I hope to see in the future? And what goals do I have? Well, I just finished my coaching endorsement.

Toni Rose Deanon  40:09  
Heck, yeah, congratulations. That's so exciting.

Zena Brown  40:13  
Yeah, I know we had talked about that, so that's done. And it was sort of I had someone else go, oh, let's pick another one to do. And actually, right now, I'm kind of taking a pause in terms of adding more stuff to my certificate, but in terms of just education is really kind of coming up with a partnership with the AI community and how it can be used in the classroom. Like many teachers, a lot of our passions about education have to deal with almost our own children. And so we spoke, I have a daughter who has dyslexia and a couple other things, and she was in a mastery based space, and one night, she had a headache, and she talked to her teacher, and because it was mastery based, it was like, It's okay if you don't have it done today, you know you've got when it needs to be done. And she was so excited. And then she had a situation where the assignment was give us all the answers possible for this assignment. And she did too, and they sent it back and said, Let's stretch yourselves. So she did four, and they sent it back again. So what I'd like to tell people is that she learned the flexibility of mastery based instruction, but she also learned the responsibility in mastery based instruction, and so it's hard to go in a classroom and in and be like, these six kids failed, and I'm like, but couldn't we? We couldn't give them another opportunity. And so that's something I also kind of want to see if I can kind of gently slide in with some of the educators that I work with of going, maybe not every assignment, but let them know this particular assignment is going to be kind of a mastery based experience, and just see how they react when they go, Wait, I got six wrong, but you're saying I can do it again, so that's something I look forward to. 

Toni Rose Deanon  42:16  
I mean, I can tell you how they react. So you know, they'd be like, No, I don't want to do it again. And and that is a that is a piece of our brain that needs to be worked on, right? Because, I think again, we did not create space and time for students to revise in the classroom. We always expect them to do it on their own. And so students always, for me, my experience anyway, they opted to not do revisions. But I do love like, No, we're gonna keep trying. You're gonna keep trying. You're gonna keep trying. You're actually not gonna get it right the first time, all the time. And that's part of life, period, right? So I think having those opportunities, like you said, in the classroom, in the learning experience, in the learning environment, so that students can see how that feels, to revise, revise, revise, until they get the concept right. So it's really cool. And you know, another thing that you said too, of like, you know, we're always talking about our own kids. And then I was like, and if we don't have kids like myself, I'm always thinking about me as a child, right? Like, what did I need in the classroom that I did not have, that I could create for students now and for the future. And so it's always going back to like my own kids, or me as a kid myself, right? So thank you again for that, and I'm also hoping for that, for that experience, you know? I'm hoping that all students get that experience of the I can try again, and you're not gonna, you're not gonna fail me, you know, right? Like there's no, it's not, you're not bashing me, you're not making me feel bad. It's like no mistakes are part of the learning, and you're gonna keep trying until you get it. So thank you for that. So Zena, how can our listeners connect with you?

Zena Brown  43:57  
Well, I am Z L brown schools with an S on all platforms. It was, I worked really hard. I was like, I want something where whatever you do, that's what I'm going to be.

Toni Rose Deanon  44:11  
Heck, yeah, that that's one. That was one of the pieces of advice for me once when I started doing my social media presence for my own classroom, was keep the same name so that people are not trying to look for different names and different platforms to have the same name all throughout the different platforms, so listeners will have that in the show notes, so you don't have to do any googling. I always say that, but you know, Sina, thank you so much for this, this conversation. It was really lovely spending time with you, and again, just recording our conversations, because we've had really insightful and powerful conversation. So thank you so much for sharing your experience and expertise with us.

Zena Brown  44:50  
Thank you. I appreciate this again. Like I said, it moved me a little bit out of my comfort zone, but that was great. I'm fairly excited with myself, and as always. Ways I like enjoy chatting with you, having you be reflective, you challenge me. So this is always an exciting space, and I grow each time.

Toni Rose Deanon  45:11  
Yes, thank you. Oh, and I meant to tell you to off key, yeah, y'all listeners. I can ramble on, but I was just you know you and I were talking about you getting your coaching certificate. I got my my teaching certificate reinstated for state of Georgia, so I'm really excited about that. I don't know what I'm going to do with it, but I am so stoked to have that back, because it has been 10 plus years since I've gotten my Georgia license. Yeah, so I just let it expire, and then it's been expired for 10 years. 2013 was when it expired. So it's like, time. It's time. I don't know what it's time for, but it's just really exciting to get my teacher shirt back. 

Zena Brown  45:51  
So that's really because I had to renew mine. And normally I do it in January, because it expires in June. And just with everything, I didn't start the process until the first of May, and I had to turn in a form, and within 24 hours, they were like, your certificate is renewed. So there's, there's some magic going on down there, where, where things are happening quickly. 

Toni Rose Deanon  46:13  
Yeah, it's, it was really, it was really fast. It was really, I think within like two weeks, I'd gotten it, but I had to send them different documentation. But for the most part, I was just like, Oh, that was easy peasy. I thought it would take a longer time, but that's dope that it didn't take longer. So okay, well, yay. Congratulations to both of us. Thank you for sharing all your wins, and I will talk to you later. Thanks. Zena, all right, listeners, remember, you can always email us at podcast@modernclassrooms.org and you can find the show notes for this episode at podcast.modernclassrooms.org We'll have this episode's video uploaded on modern classrooms YouTube channel and transcript uploaded by Friday. So be sure to check back to access those. Also, we are asking our listeners to leave a review if this podcast has been helpful in supporting you to create a human centered learning environment through a blended self paced and mastery based model, it does help other folks find it. Thank you all for listening. Have a great week, and we'll be back next Sunday.

Zach Diamond  47:16  
Thank you so much for listening. You can find links to topics and tools we discussed in our show notes for this episode. And remember, you can learn more about our work at www.modernclassrooms.org and you can learn the essentials of our model through our free course at learn.modernclassrooms.org you can follow us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram @modernclassproj, that's P, R, O, J, we are so appreciative of all you do for students in schools. Have a great week, and we'll be back next Sunday with another episode of the modern classrooms project podcast. You.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai