Zach Diamond  0:03  
 welcome to the modern classrooms project podcast. Each week we bring you discussions with educators on how they use blended, self paced and mastery based learning to better serve their students. We believe teachers learn best from each other, so this is our way of lifting up the voices of leaders and innovators in our community. This is the modern classrooms project podcast.

Toni Rose Deanon  0:28  
Hello and welcome to the modern classrooms project podcast. My name is Toni Rose Deanon they them pronouns, a designated hype person here at MCP, and I am joined by a veteran middle and high school teacher, Jocelyn Hieatzman, welcome Jocelyn. 

Jocelyn Hieatzman  0:43  
Thank you. Good to be here. 

Toni Rose Deanon  0:45  
Oh, it's so exciting to be in this space with you. And thank you so much for saying yes to the podcast before we get started. What is bringing you joy currently? 

Jocelyn Hieatzman  0:53  
So the time change, I'm really excited that we're going to have more light in the evening. That's definitely bringing me joy. And I just started teaching Romeo and Juliet today, which is super fun and so ridiculous to put on, like these mini performances of scenes with eighth graders, but it's so fun.

Toni Rose Deanon  1:14  
Oh, that's so cool. Yeah, I completely agree about the light. It really does take a toll on us when it gets dark at 4pm which is wild, right? So I am also looking forward to that. And then, of course, Romeo and Juliet in eighth grade that I'm sure you have a lot of stories coming out of. 

Jocelyn Hieatzman  1:34  
It's a time. It's a time.

Toni Rose Deanon  1:36  
Oh my gosh. Well, thank you so much for sharing that. I do love to start off our podcast with a little bit of joy, and so for our listeners, tell us more about who you are and how you started your MCP journey. You've been on this podcast before, which is really exciting, but that was like, light years ago, I feel like, so it's really exciting to just have you, because I believe when we had you, we had another person on that on that podcast episode as well, and and listeners will definitely put that in the show notes so that you don't have to do any googling or searching for it. But yeah, go ahead, Jocelyn, just remind us again. If folks have never heard from you what, yeah, who you are and how you started your MCP journey,

Jocelyn Hieatzman  2:13  
sure. So I've been teaching for 21 years, and I've been implementing the modern classroom. I want to this is my fifth year doing it, and the last time I was on here was, like you said a couple of years ago, and now I am a modern classroom mentor, so I went through that certification, and I'm still working with the same person who, like, got me into this, like, basically during the pandemic. Like my teacher, bestie, was like, hey, Heisman, we need to try this thing. I did this course, and I was like, Well, okay, and it just ended up working really, really well for me and for my students. And, yeah, I'll never go back. 

Toni Rose Deanon  3:00  
Yeah, I did a quick Google on when the last time we had you on the podcast? And Jocelyn that was back in 2021 

Jocelyn Hieatzman  3:07  
Oh, wow. Oh my gosh. Okay, 

Toni Rose Deanon  3:09  
that's wild. Welcome back, and thank you for sharing that I do sometimes think about. You know, when we call ourselves veteran teachers, right? How many years does it take to be called a veteran teacher? Just out of curiosity, 

Jocelyn Hieatzman  3:24  
I feel like, once you hit 15 years for sure, hey, but maybe even 10, I don't know. You know people? Yeah, profession quickly. Unfortunately,

Toni Rose Deanon  3:38  
that is so true. And so our last episode with Jocelyn was about veteran teachers implementing the model, you know, teachers who have been in education for many, many years and still excited about trying different things to continue creating a learning environment for students that are accessible by all right. And so, you know, you you reached out to us, Jocelyn, you were like, Hey, I have this wonderful thing I want to talk about on the podcast, and I've been on it, and I wanted to share all of my experiences and my expertise about this and and I have to agree with you, because a lot of the things that you brought up were also concerns or challenges or questions rather, from our community, especially in the Facebook group, right? And so, you know, we've seen some students struggle with receiving their first B in English, right? Because sometimes we're thinking about, you know, students who have gotten A's right, like accustomed to having A's because they know the game. They know how to play the game, and some really do know the content, right. But for the most part, we haven't had this conversation yet of students who are advanced, who've gotten A's but are now getting B's because of a self paced learning environment, right? So let's talk about it. How do you address this emotional and academic impact of this? Because it is like, How dare you? And then what? What strategies can educators use to reframe the concept of success beyond. Additional letter grades. 

Jocelyn Hieatzman  5:01  
It's such a delicate situation, and every year it's felt a little bit different. I almost always so we have a back to school night, you know, every year, of course, and my teacher, bestie, and I, we actually combine ours together so the parents get the same message, and we say that it's like, you know, getting a B is mastery. Like, that's success. And I get a lot of lip service friends like, oh, yeah, of course. But then when their kid gets a B on an essay, or, you know, for a quarter grade, sometimes we have some tricky conversations. And I will say that it's mostly the pressure the kids put on themselves. I mean, the idea that I'm the first B they've ever gotten seems to remind me that the way we look at traditional grading is so outdated, and I just don't think it fits at all, because, like, if, like you said, they can play the game and do the things and get the A but not learn anything, then that's worthless to me. And the modern classroom model, that's what it's all about, is the actual learning and mastery. So it's, I don't know, it's a multi pronged approach, like, sometimes I have to, just, like, sit with kids. I mean, I don't mean to be dramatic, but like, there was a boy last quarter, I had to pull him in the hallway and, like, sit next to him because he was crying over his B and I was like, What's the worst thing that's gonna happen? He's like, my parents will hate me, and they'll be disappointed in me. And I'm like, buddy, you're 13 years old, but it's, it's so, like, real to them in the moment. So it's kind of like that relationship that you have with the kids. It's so important. And I think sometimes they have this misconception like, well, she never gives A's, and we have to be perfect. And it's just it's hard. Sometimes it's really hard, but it starts with the parents and then with the kids, and then it also means me not inflating grades unnecessarily, so I only grade the stuff that matters, like I don't. They don't get a grade for the notes or the must do, just for the mastery. And some of them are used to getting a point for, you know, breathing. So it's, I mean, it's hard, it's a hard thing to fight against. And in my dream world, like all of the English teachers at my school, we all do it, so by the time they get to us, they like, they know the deal. So it's just, I wish I had, like, a script that I could give listeners be like, if you say this, they will feel this way. But it's just being really honest, I think, and not discounting their feelings either. 

Toni Rose Deanon  7:45  
Yeah, you know, I heard a couple of things I really resonated with your student, because coming from an Asian household, my parents had very high expectations of you. Have to make straight A's and not just A's. I have to get a plus right? Like our a's and a minuses were not celebrated at home as much as it were when it was eight pluses, right? And so really resonate with the fear of being or disappointing parents, right? And so when we think about, you know, the reframing there, like you said, it's going to be a lot of active listening. It's going to be a lot of space to have conversations about, hey, a doesn't necessarily mean this right. Like, it doesn't mean that you're better at this than whatever, right? And so I also have heard of comments that you were talking about how, like, this teacher never gives A's right. And that's also kind of, I don't even know what the word for it, but it's not, it's not that it's false or true, right? It's more so like, Hey, you really have to go above and beyond to get an A right? And like you said, when you grade in a way where it's just looking at the mastery checks of the things that actually mattered, there's no way that you're inflating the grades, right? And when you create something that is clear, transparent for students, so that they know what it means to master that also feels really good. It Like It calms our nervous system down, right? And so, like you said, there's really not a script. It is very emotional when you have gotten all A's and all of a sudden you have a B, and it's like, what did I do. Why don't you like me? I know how to do this, but yet you're not giving me the grade that I think I deserve, right? Yeah, so it's great to hear that you provide that space to have conversations about it, because I know I got my first C right in college, and that was rough because I my advisor didn't tell me I needed a science class, and so I needed to take it in six weeks. And it was geology, like, who wants to learn about rocks, not me? And so it was a C, and it was very jarring, because I was not the grade that I'm used to. But like I've said before, I've mastered the game I knew the game. Name, and I couldn't tell you what I learned in school. And so again, thank you just for naming like there's not a clear step by step. Way to create this space is just it's going to take a lot of listening and a lot of having conversations and a lot of I think validation is really important, and also understanding that these are systems that have been in place for many, many, many years. So it's going to take a lot for us to reframe our own mindsets, as well as all the other stakeholders involved in that, students learning journey, right?

Jocelyn Hieatzman  10:35  
Who? Yeah, it's, no, it's, it's a lot, and I think so we're we have quarters at the place where I work, and we're almost done with our Well, we have a couple weeks left in our third quarter, so at this point in the year, I don't have as many conversations like that, not with the parents, not with the kids, because they've seen how it works, and they trust me, and when they do achieve like so I have, you know, a rubric that I use consistently. I have something called exceptional, which is actually genuinely exceptional. And when they get that like, they are so beyond proud, because what they did was exceptional, and I think that they are okay with how things go now, and a lot of them, they've gotten to be better writers, so they are mastering things. So with that comes the aid that they desire. So it's just hard to get a 13 year old to trust someone they've never met before. I mean, they hear a lot of things. And like you said, the grading. Grades have been around since, you know, school was first created, and I was very much like a school kid, I think most teachers are, and I loved getting grades, and I loved, like, the consistency of it. And, you know, when I got into, like, my professional life, I wasn't always a teacher. There were no more A's, and it was sort of like unmooring. So, you know, things are just not as cut and dry as you get older. So I think that by even in this tiny, tiny way, giving them just a little bit of time to be like, Hey, I if I do x, this is not going to make my life y, like, maybe it's helping them relax, I hope in some kind of way.

Toni Rose Deanon  12:33  
Yeah, I chuckled, because all I could think about was saying that we say with my family now, my siblings, anyway, my brother in law, it's like, C's get degrees.

Jocelyn Hieatzman  12:42  
C's get degrees. Heck, yeah.

Toni Rose Deanon  12:44  
So why are we literally stressing ourselves out to get these A's, right? So, yeah. Anyways, something else that I'm hearing too is that relationship piece, right? Like you said, especially with teenagers, trust is really hard. It is something that we earn as educators, not just like students. Just don't say, Okay, I trust you. We actually have to consistently show up every single time for them, and they have to know that we are there for them, and we do love them and like them and all of that good stuff, and we want them to succeed, right? So this whole relationship piece is really important too. And again, another thing that I'm thinking that thinking about too Jocelyn is the fact that this is such a different perspective, because I feel like, in the podcast, and just a lot of conversations that I've had, we've really, we've really focused on students who are struggling, students who are behind, right? So it's a lot of like, well, students are not motivated. Students are not, you know, they're putting their heads down, they're not showing up. They're way below grade level. What do I do? Right? And so this conversation is really powerful, because then again, right? We don't want to completely ignore the other side as well, right? And that's what typically happens in our classes anyway, as educators, right? Because we're so focused on the students who need all the help that we just forget about the students who are advanced. So I'm really glad that we're having this conversation now, and this is this is real, right? This is real because our students, who are advanced, they really do want that A and then for you to create an opportunity for them to be exceptional, like they really have to go beyond right, what is expectation, what is expected of them, so that they can be exceptional. Because I think sometimes, again, it could be skewed right, based on our energy levels, based on our biases. I could just be like, Oh, this kid just gonna get an A for right now.

Jocelyn Hieatzman  14:26  
Yeah, that is, I'm so glad you said that. Like, I think that, like, that's just something that educators do, even if we don't realize it, and it's like, well, they're a nice kid. Like, little kids are nice kids, mean, but I don't know. It's just the thing that's so great about the modern classroom method. Honestly, this goes beyond just like the regular content, but the Aspire to dos like some of the stuff that the kids have done. I don't know. It's just so amazing. And. Like, a lot of times, you know, I so in my classrooms, you know, we have, like, a mix of different levels of kids, but like you said, a lot of times, the quote, unquote, like, you know, I don't know the doers, like they do all the things you ask them to, like, they kind of get forgotten, and I don't want them to be forgotten, but I also don't want them just to, like, get an A because they're, you know, nice, because that doesn't that means nothing.

Toni Rose Deanon  15:31  
Yeah, get an A just because that's what they've been used to doing, right? Not really understanding the concept, but they just understand the game. And so, okay, now this is, this is an interesting question that I have for you, which follow up right of students who, again, we've heard about students who don't want to revise or who are hesitant to revise, but then you have students who are like, No, I'm going to revise until I get an A like, I don't care if I've demonstrated proficiency already, I want to redo it so that I can have a perfect score. So how do you balance that desire for perfection with the importance of moving forward. And then what conversations do you have with students about the value of good enough mastery? Because I think sometimes, as society, right, like, we want to be perfect. And I, as an adult, I'm always constantly telling myself, this is good enough. This is good enough. This is good enough. Like, I don't actually have to do more. This is good enough.

Jocelyn Hieatzman  16:22  
Oh, man, I think that for me, I just hold so strong from the beginning, like, I never waffle. Like on day one, it's like you can redo anything to get mastery, which is an 80. Like, if you get at 75 you can redo it for an 80, but you can't redo it for it to be perfect. So push, you know, keep learning. Push yourself to like, hit that advanced or proficient to start with. But once I say no, enough times, they will stop asking and like at this age, adolescents, especially middle school students, they will push and push and push until you say yes, because that's worked for them, and they will use, you know, emotional reasons, like things like, Well, my parents say I have to get an A, but I just feel like, if I just make that just a consistent like, this is it, and then they don't ask anymore. Like, that's the only thing that's worked for me. It's just been like, you achieve mastery when you get an 80. And if you don't achieve mastery, you get to redo it until you get there. And even if you redo it and you do so much better, I'll tell you, I'll be like, Man, if you had done this the first time. This is advanced. So it depends on the kid, but it i You just have to hold you just have to stick to it. And so that way kids, like, will try really hard the first time. Because, like, inevitably, kids will try to give me some work that is just subpar, because they want to see how little they can do. And when they get, like, a grade that is, you know, slightly terrifying, then they all of a sudden realize, okay, she's actually grading me, you know, she's looking at stuff. So, yeah, just, you have to stick to your guns. You have to just, you know, say, this is what you can do, and that's it.

Toni Rose Deanon  18:13  
Yes. And I'm also thinking how exhausting it is to be perfect, yeah, like, how about we reserve that energy for other tasks moving forward, as opposed to being frustrated that we can't get a perfect score right. And I think that's also a different conversation that we need to have with students of the perfectionism itself, which is so detrimental to our mental health. So okay, so we've talked about, you know, how to have these conversations with students, right? Like I made a B, or I got a B and oh my gosh, this is awful, and I want to keep redoing but then you also mentioned that you have non point based rubrics. Can you tell us a little bit more about that, too, and how did your students accept and embrace that? Because I'm sure that was jarring as well. 

Jocelyn Hieatzman  19:03  
So I imagine a lot of people listening probably use the LMS canvas. That's pretty common. And I discovered, honestly, when we first started modern classroom five years ago, that you can actually add a GPA scale, where, instead of it saying, you know, A, B, C, D, E, you can change it to descriptors like advanced, exceptional, proficient, developing, revise. So, I mean, I'm happy to, like, send a tutorial, and you can put it in the show notes if you want. But basically what they see is they'll just see the word rather than the point value. Now unfortunately, like, they still have, like, a numeric grade, but they just see the point value. And I'm an English teacher, so it's very emotional to grade essays, right? Because you you know, they put so much work into it, but I really. Just stick it's like, it's 10 points. Like, that's it always 10 points. And a 10 out of 10 is exceptional, a nine out of 10 is advanced, an eight out of 10 is proficient, and so on. And I just, that's just what they see. And I don't do that for every mastery check, like, if they're taking a grammar quiz, like, I don't need to do that for every project and writing assignment, that's what they'll see. And I've definitely had parents call me and be like, what is what does this mean? And that's a good conversation, and because I use the same rubric always, you know, with those words, it's just something they get used to. I wish that I could convince, you know, our county to not do grades at all. But I did hear that elementary schools are starting to go back to that kind of grading, like they're moving away from, like the letter grades, and they're moving more towards mastery based grading. But this is going to be, Oh my It's going to take a long time. Like I might not see this, like in my career, but I, I think it's moving in that direction, and modern classroom does that. So there's definitely some little technological tricks that I use and to make that, even though they still really want to know, did I get a nine, an eight or a 10? It at least gives them one step to not see it. 

Toni Rose Deanon  21:18  
Yeah, I was gonna say too. That's a great way to reframe from like, you know, using numbers to actually work, you know, to actual words. Instead of focusing on Oh, a 10, I want to be exceptional, right? And so I really like that. That shift as well. It's very small, and it may be just a tiny bit of like shift, right, for for students, but it's still a good way for them to be exposed, that it doesn't necessarily have to be tied to a number everything that they do. So thank you for sharing that. And you know, you mentioned a little bit about some pushback, right? Resistance? Can you? Can you tell us a little bit about, you know, how? What are the pushbacks that you've gotten? I'm sure you've gotten a lot from parents, from families, from stakeholders, right? And then how did you refine your practice based on the student and community feedback? Because I think again, right? As teachers, we often get, I don't want to say scared, but we often are like, people are saying this thing about me, so I want to go back to what it was before, so that then people won't judge what I'm doing right or critique what I'm doing. So how did huh? All right, let me, let me say this, in other words, right? So like, what are some pushback and resistance that you've gotten, and then how did you utilize those feedback and to refine your practices? 

Jocelyn Hieatzman  22:39  
So when I've gotten pushback from parents, most of it is just them wanting to understand, not criticize. And I think that that is an advantage to being a veteran teacher, somebody who's been at their school for a period of time, and also having a partner teacher who does the same thing. And I know that's not everybody's situation, but sometimes it's just continuing to do those things and not giving up. And I think that that takes bravery and fortitude to not go back to how we used to be. Because there have been times where I'm like, Oh man, I really miss where the kids would just fill in the blanks of note sheets, and I would just give them a lecture. And I mean, that was not good teaching. And of course, I know that, but I mean, those are things that kids and parents understand. So I think that for people who are struggling with the pushback, like you have to have a really solid practice yourself, and it's just, you just follow the pattern, video, notes, must do, mastery, check, aspire to do. And I mean, I know I said this in my first podcast with you, but I have ADHD, and part of the reason why this model made sense to me is because it's just, it's just so clear, because I get lost in things. I mean, I really do it's really hard, and I get, like, sucked into things that don't matter. And I stay work, I stay at work late, and do things that are, you know, just so pointless. But having that structure that you can tell anybody it's like, well, this is how it goes. I mean, I have an elevator pitch for how the modern classroom works that has gotten shorter and shorter and shorter just because I've done it more so a lot of times, parents and I kind of hate to say this, but teachers, sometimes we need to put on a little show to impress stakeholders, To prove our value, which, as we know, is incredible. But sometimes, like, you have to, you know, you have to be like, This is how long I've been doing this. This is the success. This is where I can direct you, like, in my first, you know, opening, getting to know you, lessons at the beginning of the year. I mean, I have paid. Images that link right to the modern classroom website. I mean, when I present it at back to school night, like, I use all of the same, you know, language that you all use, so that that helps. It's just that really helps. And sometimes, if you get nervous or scared, like, just like the research backs it, like, just say the things that you do. And most of the time, people think, how can they say that it's wrong? You know, like, when you present it that way, like, it's really, really hard for somebody to say, Well, why don't you just do this thing that you did before? So that has been really helpful. And I think that teachers are so brave and can control a class and engage a class so well, but sometimes we get scared when it's administrators and parents, but it's the same. It's just, it's the same. It's like, here are the things. This is how it works, and it works. And sometimes that's like, full stop. So that's how I deal with criticisms and pushback. Is like, I just, I know that it works. I know how it works. I know it helps me, and I know how to help kids. And I'm getting to the point now, because this is my fifth year implementing it, where I'm starting to teach siblings of kids I did those first years. And this they know. They know how it works. So again, I wish, for those of you that are, you know, trying this model for the first time, that I could say that you won't get pushback, but just be strong like it. It works, and it will make your life, especially if you are neurodivergent like me, it will make your life so much easier and better, and that's worth it on its own. Yeah?

Toni Rose Deanon  26:38  
I was gonna say, welcome to the neurodivergent club, yeah, because it really does help educators, and not just students. And I love that you pointed out too, that when, when caregivers and stakeholders and families and parents come with concerns, right, it's not necessarily a criticized like it's not a critique, it's more of a I want to understand this piece, and when there are negative feelings behind that person based on because of the model, then it's because they don't understand right? There's this fear of like, I don't understand how to do this, and I don't know how to support my student. Therefore, I want to have conversations with you. And so really shifting that mindset too. And of course, from someone who's been in education for over 20 years. You kind of have this in the back pocket, right of like people are gonna come with concerns, and that's okay, right? And it seems like you also have a community, so you have your partner, teacher as a thought partner, which I absolutely love, because then there's an alignment right of what you two are doing, and then it's, again, it's just so much more fun when you're doing it with someone else. And then you all can, you know, compare and contrast data, think about what can you do to make it a little bit better the following year? And you also said that lecturing is what's considered good teaching, right? Because that is what we've been doing over and over and over and over again, and it is also comfortable. We already know it. That's how we were taught. We say it works. Well, really it does it. And sometimes too, again, based on our level, our energy levels, right? Sometimes we do just want to lecture and not have to worry about any of those things. But I think what I love about this model is that you can have those, like whole class discussions. If you want it, you can still do a mini lesson in front of the whole class. I really love that part. And you also said something about a solid foundation. I am all about having a solid foundation when it comes to implementing the model and also understanding that, like it's not going to be perfect. Y'all, you may have a solid foundation or solid understanding of what blended self paced, mastery based learning could look like and sound like and feel like in your classroom. But also know that you have 20 plus students in your class who's going to turn up and who's going to just like do all the things that you were not really prepared for. We think we are, but we're not. They show up how they want to show up, and so give yourself lots of grace. You know, you can have the solid foundation. You can have the solid knowledge and also understanding that, hey, this is a community learning space. So let's talk about, what can we do to make this better for everyone? So if this thing is not working, what can we do to make sure that it does work? Right? So we're not saying that you need to have a solid foundation and then close it off and say, like, No, I'm not taking any, you know, feedback. It's more like you have you want to have a solid foundation and also right open and invite for others to provide feedback whenever necessary. So I really appreciated that part.

Zach Diamond  29:37  
Hey there, listeners. This is Zach. I've got some announcements and reminders for you calling all school and district leaders. We're hosting a virtual summer summit on June 24 for leaders supporting modern classrooms. Educators. Leaders will learn practical skills from fellow leaders. Attend workshops of their choice and connect with the modern classrooms project, leadership, collaborative community. Go. Modern classrooms. Co founder Rob Barnett is our featured keynote speaker, and will share insights from his book, meet every learner's needs alongside voices of students, educators and leaders. We invite educators to share the summit with their leaders and invite leaders to register. Want to start building your own modern classroom. Sign up for our summer virtual mentorship program from either may 19 to June, 22 or June, 23 to July, 27 work with one of our expert educators to build materials for your own classroom. We have scholarships all over the country so you can enroll for free if you teach in LA Oakland, Chicago, Minnesota, Alabama and more, to see if there's an opportunity for you, check out modernclassrooms.org/apply-now. That's modern classrooms.org/apply-now. Looking for virtual connection, join our implementer meetup on Wednesday, May 14, at 7pm eastern to connect with other modern classrooms, educators, registration links will be in the show notes. And with that, let's get on back into it with TR and Jocelyn.

Toni Rose Deanon  31:13  
You know we were talking about again, like just push back right? And can you believe that COVID has been almost five years now that is wild to me, and yet you said that students are still saying this way of learning reminds me of COVID Distance Learning, right? And we've heard that from other people as well who really don't know the model that well. So what? What is triggering this association? Do you think is true? You know, what is it? What? What is this triggering? And then also, how can educators differentiate between necessary adaptations and then potentially negatively, like negative parallels to the challenging period, right? Because, again, this is something to get used to, right? COVID was a lot of sitting and staring at screens, not really a lot of engagement. Yeah, tell us your thoughts.

Jocelyn Hieatzman  32:04  
So I will say those conversations kind of ebb and flow, just depending on the year or the group of kids. I definitely get that sort of feeling. I mean, COVID was, you know, it it was a national tragedy on so many different levels. And you know, we all did the best that we could, you know, with what we had. And I do think that, you know, when they see that they have to watch a video and then do work on it, I think that it's really important that when you're making your videos, and I have remade my videos over the past few years because we started this in COVID. It was just coincidental. My partner, teacher and I, like, we were ready to start a normal year, and we were going to do this anyway, and it worked so well for COVID. But I mean, you have to really put yourself in your videos, like my original videos, like it was my voice, but my face wasn't there. Like that makes a huge difference. And I really made an effort to cut the videos down wherever I can. I think that's really helped a lot. And it just it also, again, it's that trust. It's sort of like, you know, when my kids come in, they have a do now that they start with and then we kind of meet, and I walk around see who they are, and then I'll talk about the week and things like that. So you still can have your normal classroom routines, like the entire class doesn't need to be. They're looking at the video content, and they're in silence, doing stuff, the must dos they can collaborate on so it's just like really being very intentional about making sure they can talk to each other and kind of forcing it sometimes. But I mean delivering content and videos is amazing, because if a kid misses school, they can still learn. If a kid is not ready to learn that day because something sad happened, they can look at it later. And if I'm just lecturing a group of kids, day in and day out, like there's no way I have all their attention. So again, it's just like making them as personal as you can, as short as you can, like within reason, and then making sure that they do have chances to talk to each other. And I also think it's really important to not dismiss their concerns, because I think the year after we got back from COVID, and I would hear that because it was so fresh on them, I would get kind of grumpy about it and be like, You have no idea how much work I put into this. And you know, like, it was very like me, egocentric, but I think that now I'm way more patient with that. And I'm just like, I sit with them. I'm like, tell me more about that. Like, why does it make you feel this way? And a lot of times, kids have never had an adult talk to them that way. Like, as, like, we're having a conversation, so that usually makes a big difference. And like, once they kind of go through the. Machinations, like they end up being like, Okay, well, it's really not exactly that way. Maybe I just wanted to complain because it's different, 

Toni Rose Deanon  35:06  
that it's that piece, right? It's different. So I want to complain. And I am a teenager, so I'm going to complain about everything I can complain about, especially if you give me space and time to complain. So that piece definitely, and I think something that's coming up for me is a collaboration piece. It's really important for our students to collaborate with each other, and because COVID happened, there's a lot of social, emotional learning skills that our students don't have, and so we need to provide guidelines of how to collaborate with each other as well. Because we can't just say, like, oh, they should just be able to talk to each other. That's just not how it works. It's not the reality anymore, right? So it has to be intentional. There has to be some guidelines. And as a neurodivergent, I love some guidelines and some sentence stems, okay? Like, if I don't got to think about what I have to say, beautiful, I can show up, and then I won't overthink about, like, oh, I should have said this. I should have said that. Or, how did I start? You know, how do I start this conversation? So, so, definitely force collaboration, and make sure that when you are forcing collaboration, that there are guidelines for students to be able to feel like they succeeded in the collaborative tasks that you have for them. And another thing that I was thinking too, it's really interesting with students, because there's such a disconnect with the instructional videos. But then they're on Snapchat, they're on Tiktok, they're on YouTube, they're on YouTube shorts, right? They're on, like, all of the Twitch it's all really video, like you want to go and replay whatever video of someone who's streaming on Roblox to kind of understand, like, what moves I need to do, right? And I feel like that to me, that's just so interesting that there's that disconnect. It's like, No, you actually do it all the time. You learn from videos all the time. And I think you pushing, you know, the whole be personal, right? Like, be personable, be yourself, honestly, make it engaging and make it short because, again, we are not fighting, but we are like, going against Tiktok and all of these short form videos. And so we want to be straight to the point as well, right? So I really that's just so funny to me, that that's how kids work and how their brains work. And so okay, you know you are sharing with us this unit two, Lesson two, and you know, listeners will have that in the show notes as well, and it's a lot of good information. Actually, you have slides on there. You have assessed, you know, tasks on there. So tell us a little bit more about that. 

Jocelyn Hieatzman  37:38  
So it relates to the rhetorical appeals, ethos, pathos and logos, and it comes in the middle of a unit where they will eventually be analyzing speeches, writing their own, performing it so that foundational work with the appeals and then also rhetorical devices. It's huge, and it's new to them, so they need to get that content over and over and over again. And one of the things that I love about these lessons is that I pulled in clips from movies and Super Bowl commercials and, you know, other stuff. It's not just me going through a slide show and being like, Here you go. But it was really, you know, I did it not that long ago. I just keep refining that lesson. But I remember when the kids were doing the must do, like they were gathered around watching the Super Bowl commercials and talking to each other, because it was interesting and kind of cool. And it's such a fun unit to teach, because I eventually, like, I was like, All right, it's the Super Bowl this year. Tell me some commercials, give me some devices and some appeals. And it was just such an engaging thing to do. And that's kind of a way where they can, like, learn digitally and with videos that I don't even think they realized, you know, that it was the same thing that we always do. You know, it's like, oh, it's so cool in those heights. And I was like, okay, yeah, it's amazing. But, um, yeah, it's if, if I can incorporate, you know, YouTube clips and multimedia stuff. Like, I absolutely will. So I definitely enjoy teaching that lesson, and it gives you so much room to also do things together. Like, I do some stuff that's like old school, like I have a pile of magazines and at their tables to a warm up, I'll be like, Hey, let's go through these magazines and see what appeals are in here and why. And you know, it's not like doing modern classroom makes you stop being a teacher. It just changes the way you deliver content, and it gives you a framework of, you know, how that works. So, you know, I think that that lesson is, you know, just really fun, because you can do so much with it. And I did want to just really touch quickly on, you know, how to get kids to collaborate. So I'm very much a believer in setting kids in tables. And. And I know that that is sometimes kind of challenging for people, for teachers, because their attention is not on you, but their attention is never fully on you. So when they're in groups together, it makes it easier. And not all kids, honestly, not all kids have friends in the classroom, and it's a relief to be told where to sit, what to say, and how to say it. And maybe that's not every day everything, but I think that it's just something that fits so well with the modern classroom model, and it's a way to be like, Okay, we watched this video, but now I'm gonna get with my friend, or I'm gonna get with my table partner, and we're going to do this activity. So it's still, I mean, it's totally different, but it's still the same, like all the things that people do as good teachers, you're still doing them.

Toni Rose Deanon  40:51  
Yeah, and I was going to say too with the collaboration piece, right? If you are changing your seating chart every day or every week, instead of taking class time to do that. What I did was I would have the seating chart already as they were walking in, so they knew, Okay, this is where I sit. So it's not, it's not, oh, we're gonna wait until everyone is in, and now I'm gonna move every single student to where they're supposed to be. No, the seating chart is already on the board. That's the first thing you're looking at when you come into the classroom, so you know exactly where to go. That's just a time saving piece as well. For educators who may not have known or forgot about this technique as well, and especially for our teachers who are brand new to teaching too, right? I'm sure you've heard of that technique as well, but again, just as a reminder. So really providing, again, like you said, access points for students to have conversations with others is really, really important y'all, when we're thinking about inclusivity, when we're thinking about accessibility, right, we want to lower that nervous system down so that they can focus on the task ahead of them or in front of them, right? So they can say, Okay, I have to work with a group. But here are the expectations, so then I know how to move and how to navigate and how to have conversations, and what I need to have conversations about. So as adults, we love clarity. We love when things are clear. So we want to continue providing that kind of space for students to be in as well, right? Another thing that I wanted to talk about too, Jocelyn, was you mentioned pop culture. Pop culture is so important because that is what our students are seeing outside of our classroom. So highly recommend listening to your students about what they're watching, about what they're doing, about what they're playing, so then you can incorporate those things in your lessons. Now mind you, you don't necessarily have to re record a video, because pop culture changes every year, right? But you could, for example, if you teach English, you could do a video on theme, and then the supplemental task, or the, you know, the practices are the pop culture references, so that you you so that students know you're paying attention. First of all, you know what is important to them, right? And you are kind of in the know of what students are interested in. So I really like, I love that. It's a real life example, right? And like you, you've been in the classroom again for over 20 years, so I'm sure things have changed over and over and over again. And I love too that you brought up magazines, because I'm sure some of our students are like magazines. What are those? So bringing back some of those nostalgic things that we used to do as educators is also really cool. Like you don't actually have to do all 2025 stuff. You can bring in magazines, you can bring in CDs, you can bring in DVDs, if you wanted, right, like floppy disk, all of these things, because, like, This generation is still alive to talk about all of those things that have already passed on that, like our students have no idea what they are. It's wild. Well, thank you for sharing that unit two, Lesson Two with us. I know that our listeners are going to be able to just visualize and at least see, you, know or understand, have a little bit of an understanding of what your lessons look like in your class. And so again, I appreciate you doing that. And now, Jocelyn, what do you hope to see in the future and what goals do you have?

Jocelyn Hieatzman  44:04  
I guess in my professional future, I want to just keep trying new things, and I don't. I don't want to give up doing new things because it's easy. I think a lot of people, when they've hit the year mark that I'm at, they they stop making changes. And I don't think it means that they're bad teachers or bad people. I think that we get used to doing things. And so even if it's just changing a few things here and there every year, it it makes a difference, and it's invigorating to me. So I just want to continue to make changes and refine my practice, and I hope, I mean, I hope that more people will like take on this model in my school and beyond. I mean, I have been talking about it for so long, but I just, I. Hear the struggles of some educators, and I wish that I had known about this when I was a newer teacher. I don't think I could have implemented it completely my first couple years of teaching, but I think if I had had somebody to guide me through it, you know, I think that it would have been amazing. So I hope that more people you know are, are into this. And I don't know, I just kids are always going to be kids. I like to say teenagers are going to teenage. And I hope that they never stop talking to me like things have come full circle. So, like, I have this group of so I'm kind of a weirdo. And, um, I have this group of little weird girls, and they are so obsessed with the fact that, like, I saw Radiohead in the 90s, and, like, I, you know, know, all this stuff about music, and I have tattoos and blah, blah, blah, and it's just like, I was like, did I become cool again? Like, what? What happens so? But, I mean, you know, I just hope that I can still connect with students, even as my career is, you know, in its last third, 

Toni Rose Deanon  46:07  
okay, two things, right? This is a thing that I've another thing that I have in my head all the time is that when we're comfortable, we're actually not growing. Our brains are not getting that exercise that we need. When we are just comfortable. We want to feel uncomfortable sometimes, not all the time, maybe majority of the time, because then we know that that's when we have some learning gaps and maybe a learning curve that we need to figure out, right? So that's one and then another thing is that I miss students so much, Jocelyn, because they keep you young, right? Like you said, Oh, Am I cool again? And I mean, there's this whole trend now, and I only know because my sister's Gen Z that there's a desire for the old school stuff, right? Like our fashion is coming back. I don't know why. You know, I just like different things from our generations coming back. And I think our young, young people are just really interested in what our lives were. And they want to, I don't want to say, copy it, but they do want to see how that goes right, or see how that was for us. They were, they're more curious, I think, which I really love. So thank you for sharing your goals. Thank you for just saying, You know what, I've been in this profession for so many years, but I keep at it because I am open to changing. I am opening, you know, open to playing around, exploring and doing all the different things. So thank you for your service. I don't I hope, I hope you get that. I hope you get that enough, you know, lots of thanks, lots of love, because being an educator is really hard, really hard.

Jocelyn Hieatzman  47:43  
Yeah, it is. It is definitely hard. But I mean, there's so much good that comes from it, and I don't know, I just, I'm really grateful for modern classroom and, like, that's why I wanted to come back and just be like, here I am. It's later, and I'm still doing it. I'm better. And, you know, it's, it's great, 

Toni Rose Deanon  48:03  
and Jocelyn, you also have another perspective of implementing this model for five years and now having siblings like, that's a whole other conversation that we could have. So I'll definitely keep you posted, because I would love to hear that. Because, again, right? We don't. We hear a lot from like, two year implementers, three year implementers, first year implementers, no implementing right? But then now to hear that like, No, I have siblings, and it's actually really cool, I feel like you and Zach, our other co host is would have a great conversation about, like, what you've seen throughout the years. So, okay, well, Jocelyn, how can our listeners connect with you? 

Jocelyn Hieatzman  48:40  
I mean, I got to be honest, talking of old school, like, I kind of, kind of quit all my social media just for, like, my own mental health so you you can email me. Like, that's totally fine, but yeah, I just, I went, I went dark.

Toni Rose Deanon  48:55  
I love that. I'm so jealous. I'm gonna do that one day. I I'm gonna do that one day soon. Soon is gonna happen. 

Jocelyn Hieatzman  49:02  
I don't know. I go through phases, but that's, that's where I am right now. Yeah, understandable. I don't know. I feel, feel a little bit better about everything.

Toni Rose Deanon  49:10  
Good for you, good for you. I aspire again, and I also understand, like, the new ones with social media, right? Like, that's where a lot of my community is and so and that's where a lot of the events are popping up, and without social media, I would have never known of all of these other opportunities. So it's kind of like a love hate relationship here, but listeners, we will put Jocelyn email in the show notes, so no worries about trying to find that as well. And again, Jocelyn second time around, just as beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing your experience and expertise with us. I really, really, really appreciate it.

Jocelyn Hieatzman  49:43  
No problem. I love talking to you,

Toni Rose Deanon  49:45  
listeners. Remember, you can always email us at podcast at modern classrooms.org and you can find the show notes for this episode at podcast.modernclassrooms.org We'll have this episode's video uploaded on modern classrooms YouTube channel and transcript uploaded by Friday. So be sure to check back to access those also, we are asking our listeners to leave a review. If this podcast has been helpful in supporting you to create a human centered learning environment through a blended, self paced and mastery based model, it does help other folks find it. Thank you all for listening. Have a great week, and we'll be back next Sunday.

Zach Diamond  50:22  
Thank you so much for listening. You can find links to topics and tools we discussed in our show notes for this episode, and remember. You can learn more about our work at www.modernclassrooms.org and you can learn the essentials of our model through our free course at learn.modernclassrooms.org you can follow us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram at modernclassproj, that's P, R, O, J, we are so appreciative of all you do for students in schools. Have a great week, and we'll be back next Sunday with another episode of the modern classrooms project podcast. 

Transcribed by https://otter.ai