Zach Diamond 0:03 welcome to the modern classrooms project podcast. Each week, we bring you discussions with educators on how they use blended, self paced and mastery based learning to better serve their students. We believe teachers learn best from each other, so this is our way of lifting up the voices of leaders and innovators in our community. This is the modern classrooms project podcast. Toni Rose Deanon 0:28 Hello and welcome to the modern classrooms project podcast. My name is Toni Rose Deanon, they them pronouns, a designated hype person here at MCP, and I'm joined by Alexandra Clough. Alex is an educational specialist in gifted and advanced learning with Baltimore City Public Schools. She also works as an adjunct instructor in McDaniel College's gifted and talented educational specialist graduate certificate program. Whew welcome Alex. Alexandra Clough 0:51 I know that was a mouthful, right? Toni Rose Deanon 0:55 It's, it's, it's awesome though, because I think the first time you and I met, I was just so impressed and excited to learn from you, because you had a lot of experiences and expertise that I didn't really have a lot. So you expanded my brain, and I'm just really excited for you to be in this podcast with me and saying yes to recording. Are some of our conversations, because I feel like you and I have really fruitful conversations. So before we get started. Alex, what is bringing you joy currently? So Alexandra Clough 1:23 I wish I could say that it is all of these beautiful trees that are blossoming blossoming right now, but they are also bringing pollen, which is not bringing me joy. But the other thing that is bringing me both joy and a little bit of trepidation is my oldest turns 18 in two weeks, and he has just gotten accepted to his top choice college. And so we have so many exciting but also slightly scary things to look forward to. Toni Rose Deanon 1:50 Oh, another transition, right? All the transitions, and that's that is exciting. Congratulations to your son. And also the pollen is no joke. And here in south Georgia, or not even South Georgia, but Georgia in general, like our back my back porch is covered with pollen. And so my dogs come in, their furs are covered with pollen, their paws that are pot like they're just spreading pollen everywhere in our house. So totally understandable about the pollen. It is nice. The weather is super nice right now, though, so have to give a shout out to nature, to the earth here, right? So, okay, well, Alex, I know a little bit about who you are, but I'm sure listeners want to know more about who you are and how you started your MCP journey, or even just your education journey, Alexandra Clough 2:36 sure. So I started out my education journey as a third grade teacher in Baltimore County Public Schools, and I knew that I wanted to work right from the beginning with gifted learners in particular, but didn't find quite kind of the right fit for a graduate program, so I ended up pivoting a little bit and doing a master's in school counseling, which has been super helpful as A classroom educator, and then also working on my Ed specialist certificate in gifted and advanced learning. And so I've had a variety of different roles in kind of that K to eight realm. So classroom teacher, gifted resource teacher within a school, school counselor. And now I currently am at the district level as an educational specialist for gift and advanced learning. I'm also a homeschooling mom of two, twice exceptional learners, so that's been its own whole learning curve. And as you said, I work in a graduate program, teaching teachers more about our gift and advanced learners and helping them earn their gifted educational specialist certificates and MCP was introduced to me by one of my Baltimore City Schools colleagues, Sandy Knutson, who is a gal lead at Hamilton elementary middle school, and she was sharing with me some of the amazing things that she had learned in her MCP training and how she thought it might be a great fit for classrooms with gifted learners to be able to differentiate a little bit easier. And so I went ahead and did the training as well. Toni Rose Deanon 4:08 Oh man, what a journey. And I love learning this about you, I think, for the listeners, clarify, there's Baltimore County and Baltimore City. I know the difference because I used to work in Baltimore City, and I had to learn real quick that Baltimore County is completely different. Background, yeah. Background information, just a little snippet of what Baltimore County versus, or Baltimore County, yeah, versus Baltimore City, Alexandra Clough 4:30 sure. So Baltimore City is kind of at the north end of the Inner Harbor and the Chesapeake Bay, the Patapsco River coming up through and then Baltimore County forms a horseshoe around it, and so I was in the southwestern side of that horseshoe, right on the city county line. So we did have a lot of students that moved back and forth between city and county schools. Kind of high mobility there. But yep, whole different district, whole different structure to now involve. More city schools, Toni Rose Deanon 5:01 yes, and also you said you've always wanted to do gifted and advanced learning, right? So what made you interested in that? Alexandra Clough 5:08 So I was identified as a gifted learner in elementary school, and I had some great experiences, and I also had some years where I just kind of was treading water, and most of my learning was happening outside of school instead of in school, and so I very much wanted to make sure that there were resources for kids who might be feeling like that. And so the social emotional needs of gifted learners in particular was something that I really wanted to dive into and learn more about. And so that and twice exceptionality have kind of become my two areas of passion. Toni Rose Deanon 5:44 Yes, I the first time I heard of this term twice exceptionality. I was, again, just sitting and processing, because I've never heard of that term before, and I would love to have you on the podcast to talk about it, because I'm sure if I haven't heard of it, there a lot of us, or a lot of people who have not heard of that as well. So it's really fascinating that, Alex, you've had all of these hats that you're, you know, that you're, you wore and currently wearing, right? And I think my follow up question is, how, well I'm gonna assume you're really good at time management, first of all, because you are doing, you know, you're in the district level, and then you're homeschooling, and then also an adjunct professor. How do you how do you manage all of that? I'm just curious. Alexandra Clough 6:28 Sometimes, well, sometimes not as well. I'm lucky that there are sort of ebbs and flows in each of the tasks that I'm doing. So, you know, I don't teach every semester at the graduate level that certainly helps. My kids that I'm homeschooling are high schoolers and are, fortunately, amazing, autonomous, independent learners. And so now that they are in those high school years, there's a lot of outsourcing of their their schooling to, you know, online classes or things where I'm not providing the direct instruction. So that is very helpful as well. Certainly, when they were little, I took a little time off to homeschool them, because they couldn't be that independent, but we've set a lot of routines and structures and things. So now that they are able to do that, and once they were kind of able to manage their own learning a little bit better. I was able to step up the work that I was doing with the district and come back from being part time to being in a full time district based role. Toni Rose Deanon 7:31 This is this, again, fascinating, right? Like you're not doing all of them at the same time. It's just kind of like, okay, this is taking priority right now, and then it just kind of shifts right as as you get used to the different routines. And I know that you and I had a conversation too, about how one of your kids teachers a homeschool teach, because you know, you're utilizing programs and and other teachers as well, right? And you said one of them is actually an MCP implementer, which I was like, Oh my gosh, it's so cool. Alexandra Clough 7:58 Yeah, it was fascinating. I had just done the leader training, and then my kids were signed up for an online physics class through aim Academy. And you know, I was watching them kind of get oriented to that platform, and I'm like, hang on a minute. This looks just like modern classrooms. And sure enough, you know, they had mastery checks at certain points, and they knew how to go back and find the resources that they needed if they didn't quite pass that mastery check. And so I'm also getting a chance to see it in in action with my own kids, which is interesting. Toni Rose Deanon 8:30 Oh, I love that so much. That's so cool. Okay, so before we even dive into more about like, gifted education, right? Let's define it first, because we want to make sure we're on the same page about what it means to be in gifted what it means to be to have gifted education, right? So first of all, what does it mean? And then how are students identified as as gifted? Alexandra Clough 8:53 So gifted, unlike special education services, is not federally mandated and doesn't have we do have definitions that are used at our, say, National Association for gifted children, but each state has some leeway in exactly how they define and identify gifted ed. So, for example, I grew up in Pennsylvania where gifted students got GIEPs, and so they had these, you know, formalized plans that would help ensure that they were working towards their interests and their strengths. And then I came to Maryland and did my education degree, and was like, Wait, where are those GIEPs and they don't exist in Maryland. So in Maryland, we talk about gifted students as having outstanding talent and performing, or showing the potential to perform at remarkably high levels of accomplishment when compared to others of a similar age, experience and environment. And then each district within our state gets to kind of define how they're actually going to identify students. So in Baltimore City Schools, we look at ability and achievement measures, and we use a combination. Question of both of those to identify students as being either gifted advanced or talent development students. Toni Rose Deanon 10:06 Wait, Alex, what's the difference between those three? Alexandra Clough 10:09 Great question. So we use something called the Naglieri nonverbal ability test to measure ability, so that we can remove any barriers that might exist for a student that doesn't have as language, rich of an environment at home, or is a multilingual learner and has a great language, rich environment, but in a different language. And so we use that as an ability screener for all our kindergarten students. Once students have hit a certain threshold on that Naglieri assessment, we also look at their achievement measures. So we know some kids have great ability, but maybe don't have that achievement yet. They're going to be in our talent development pool of students. And then we know there are some kids who have that great ability, and they're already achieving at the 80th to 89th percentile. They're in our advanced pool of students. And then we have some students who, again, strong ability and strong achievement, 90th to 99th percentile, and those students get coded as gifted, Toni Rose Deanon 11:07 got it, got it. Okay. So it is that the the percentage, right? The 90 and up, 90% and up that would be considered gifted, right? Alexandra Clough 11:14 Yes. But when we talk about our students in Baltimore City, we talk about gifted and advanced learning, or gal students, and all three of those categories are considered gal students. So all three of those categories of students, we are saying, Hey, you should have an individualized learning plan for them, and they should have access to these really rich kind of enrichment experiences and curricula. So we are not saying, Oh, it's only the top 10% of students that get that we're saying, all students who are demonstrating the potential to be high achievers and the ability that we want them all fed. Toni Rose Deanon 11:51 Okay, so my brain is expanding already, because I feel like you and I have had conversation, but this is some this is brand new to me, and I love this because, again, I love the part where you're talking about the ability, right? There are barriers. Could be language, it could be, you know, fill in the blank, right? But you have this test that could check or assess for ability, which I think it's really amazing. And then you also mentioned that you test in kindergarten, but are there other grade levels where students can be tested. Can teachers refer students? Because I know with IEPs, if we're thinking about IEPs, right, like I could refer students to get an IEP is that the same with gifted? What is it? The get? Gal, right? Gal, Alexandra Clough 12:36 yes, gifted and advanced learning, Yep, yeah, okay, yep, yep. So yeah, parents can refer students. Teachers can refer students. We have, you know, seniors in high school who get flagged and identified right at the end of their school career. So although we do a universal, you know, everyone is required to make sure that those kindergarteners are assessed. That doesn't stop there, and so we have some tools that we share with teachers that can help them see, oh, you know, these are certain students that maybe have really high achievement and didn't flag on that ability measure when they took it in kindergarten, but maybe they're a third or fourth or fifth grader. Now let's go back and reassess and see if that ability measure has changed. And we know there are a variety of reasons why that might happen. A child might just have blossomed and matured, or maybe, you know, they didn't take the assessment in the best testing conditions when they were in kindergarten. We've learned a lot about how to do this well over the last 10 years, so we know that kindergarteners probably should only be tested in very small groups and not a whole class at a time. So sometimes, you know, in those later grades, we find students who maybe didn't have that ideal testing condition and might need to be reassessed. So it's not a one and done. We are always happy to look for more students, and we are happy to hear educators advocating for a student who maybe just missed a cut off score, because we do want to be as inclusive as possible and look for talent everywhere. Toni Rose Deanon 14:12 Yeah, and it's, it's really good to hear too, that you know, you said there was a senior, right? They could be all the way up to seniors and get that and be identified as gal, right? And so I'm curious, because I know, again, I know a lot about sped, because that that was kind of like my realm. And I know with IEPs, that those IEPs can follow students out after, after high school, like in college as well. Does that? Is that the same with with gifted? Alexandra Clough 14:39 Fortunately, not okay, because gifted, like I said, is state determined, as opposed to federally mandated, got it. So one thing that people across the country, you know, could look at is NAGC, the National Association for gifted children, actually does a report card of each state and looks at each state. Policies, and some states require identification, but don't require services. Got it and so very much, there's a, you know, like I said, between even Maryland and Pennsylvania, difference in how each state chooses to kind of interpret and handle their gifted education. So we in Baltimore City have individualized learning plans for gifted students, but that is a district decision. So if a student does like my kiddos when I first was teaching, move across that county line from Baltimore City to Baltimore County, that document doesn't follow them to another district. Toni Rose Deanon 15:37 Got it, got it, and it is, and it is, like you said, tied to the fact that it's not federally mandated. Alexandra Clough 15:43 Exactly. Toni Rose Deanon 15:44 Okay, okay, so this is, this is making, this is making a lot of sense now, and I'm just again, so fascinated that there is such a thing as a GIEP. Now, how long does that typically take to put together? Because I know I remember being in the classroom, and when I would refer students to get an IEP, it was a long process, right? There was, like, a lot of paperwork that needed to happen, a lot of proof, a lot of like, people involved in making that happen. Is that, is that pretty much the same procedure with the GIEP so we don't use GIEPs in Maryland, but when I was in Pennsylvania as a student, it was just a conversation with the parent, the student and an advisor at my school. I don't know if other schools did it differently. My sister and her family are in Florida, who all. They also have GIEPs in Florida, and I know that in in their case, it is not as extensive a team, not as extensive testing as you would have for special education. It's a much quicker meeting with, again, probably just the parents and one educator got it. Okay, okay, Ooh, thank you for answering all of my follow up questions. I have 100 more. Actually, we're gonna get distracted with all those other questions that I have, and that's okay. So okay, you already mentioned a little bit about gifted education in Baltimore City Schools. Is there something else that you wanted to shine a light on and how and what gifted education looks like? Alexandra Clough 17:17 So one thing that we're really proud of is that we do have a policy in Baltimore City Schools that kind of governs and norms what all of our gifted education procedures and things are so all of those questions that you had about, how are kids identified, and what does talent development versus advanced versus gifted mean, and how do we determine acceleration policies and those kind of things, those are all spelled out and and normed and so it's, you know, not up to each individual school to decide, oh, I think this child should be accelerated or not accelerated. There is an actual policy in place, which I think is really helpful in terms of something else that I'm really proud of, that we do in Baltimore City, there is a national organization called sang which is supporting the emotional needs of the gifted. And they have a model for groups for parents and caregivers, where there's a book called A Parent's Guide to gifted children, and you kind of use that as the spine of the group, and you have kind of a weekly discussion about particular topics that parents may be finding challenging, and so we have set up a system where we have several trained facilitators, and we invite parents to participate in these groups, regardless of whether their child has that official gal coding or not. And it's been such a great experience for parents to be able to talk with each other about some of the challenges that arise from having a kiddo who is, you know, really intense or really perfectionistic or gets very anxious about things. So that's another piece that I'm really proud of for Baltimore City. Toni Rose Deanon 18:55 Oh, that's really cool that there's so many resources here, right? The biggest thing that I'm I'm thinking about is, I remember having a conversation with my youngest sister, and I asked her about her K 12 experience, and there's a 15 year difference between me and her, and she was just saying, like, I just sat there, like, I kind of already knew everything, and I wasn't really challenged, and they didn't, the teachers didn't bother me. I just kind of did what I needed to do, and then, like, not did whatever else I wanted to do. And I was like, oh, man, that that kind of sucks, right? Like, and I do sometimes think that we're always highlighting students who need a lot more scaffolding and a lot more support, which we should, right, we should. And I think sometimes there's not enough conversation as well. On the other spectrum of that, of like, where we have students who are gifted in advance and need a bit more challenging stuff that's happening that they're getting at schools, right? So Alexandra Clough 19:50 Exactly, yeah, and that's, you know, we don't want our Baltimore city kids who do. Most of our schools are Title One schools. You know, many kids are living in under resourced. Neighborhoods like we don't want that to be the reason that their potential isn't realized. And so another thing that I am really proud of, that you know, the work that we're doing in the district office is trying to continually improve and find where are those gaps, and how do we keep moving the work forward? So we do use Dr Donna Ford's equity index, and we analyze our data about which students have been identified to try and make sure that we have equitable representation from different groups. And so we are continuing. We're not there yet, but we are continually trying to find ways to make sure that specifically our African American students, but you know also our Latino and our multilingual learners are are equitably represented, and our students with disabilities again are twice exceptional learners. So one thing that we have done to try and address that need is that we now front load in pre K and kindergarten with analogical reasoning lessons before our students take the universal screening. Because what we found is that a lot of our more affluent children, or children from better resource neighborhoods, do a lot of puzzle books and things at home, and have those kind of learning experiences that when they see the type of puzzle that we might be using on an assessment, they have some familiarity with that. So by engaging first with Lollipop logic and some workbook style books like that, and now with legends of learning, we've developed a partnership and we have some digital games that students engage with, we've been able to decrease that gap, that inequity. Toni Rose Deanon 21:43 Oh, that's so that's such it's just music to my ears, honestly, to hear you all just sitting or not sitting, but just making sure that there's equitable representation of students, right? Because I think sometimes it tends to lean one way, and then no one is really questioning that at all. And I know that there's a lot of like, biases and assumptions with that as well. So I'm really, I'm really glad to hear that y'all are having these conversations, and y'all are moving the markers to make it more equitable. I so I am curious, because you did mention Sandy, who is another gal lead, right? How many, how many, how many people are in your team? Alexandra Clough 22:22 So Sandy is actually a school based lead in our district office. We have a coordinator and four educational specialists. Toni Rose Deanon 22:31 Got it, okay, okay. And how many schools are there in Baltimore City, again, Alexandra Clough 22:35 160 ish, Toni Rose Deanon 22:37 yeah, okay. Alexandra Clough 22:40 You got it? Toni Rose Deanon 22:41 Got it. Alexandra Clough 22:42 We're a small but mighty office trying to help as many people as we can. Toni Rose Deanon 22:46 Yep, noted got it. Zach Diamond 22:52 Hey, there listeners. This is Zach. I have a ton of announcements for you this week, and I'm a little sick, so you're gonna just have to bear with my voice. I do apologize, but here we go. Do you want to connect with other educators of color who are creating a more student centered learning environment? Join our monthly shades of excellence meetup on Monday, April 28 at 7pm Eastern, calling all school and district leaders. We're hosting a virtual summer summit on June 24 for leaders supporting modern classrooms. Educators, leaders will learn practical skills from fellow leaders, attend workshops of their choice and connect with the modern classrooms project leadership, collaborative community. Modern classrooms. Co founder Rob Barnett is our featured keynote speaker, and will share insights from his book, meet every learner's needs alongside voices of students, educators and leaders, we invite educators to share the summit with their leaders, and invite leaders to register. Want to learn more about modern classrooms and how you can get started with your own join us at our next info session on Thursday, April 29 at 6pm Eastern. Even if you can't make it, you can still register to get an on demand recording afterwards. Want to start building your own modern classroom. Sign up for our summer virtual mentorship program from either may 19 to June, 22 or June. 23 to July, 27 you can work with one of our expert educators to build materials for your own classroom, and we have scholarships all over the country, so you can enroll for free in places like LA Oakland, Chicago, Minnesota, Alabama and more. To see if there's an opportunity for you, check out modern classrooms.org/apply-now. That's modern classrooms.org/apply-now. And of course, there'll be links to all of this for you to register and get more information in the show notes, I am going to give my voice a break, and we're going to get back into it with TR and Alex. Toni Rose Deanon 24:52 Okay, so you've mentioned twice exceptionality a couple of times already, and I want to have a conversation about that too. You know, first of all, defining it. And then also mentioning, like, what are some of the unique needs of gifted learners? Because you did say, like, hey, you know, there are students who are perfectionists, who are super anxious, right? Can we? Yeah, tell us a little bit more about that. Because, again, this is so this is such fascinating thing for me to learn about. Alexandra Clough 25:16 So twice exceptionality, that's our students who fit both in either that students with learning differences or learning disabilities category, and they fit in that gifted, advanced learner category. And so as you can imagine, those kiddos have a unique set of needs. So often those kids are unidentified because their abilities mask the areas of challenge, and those challenges might mask the abilities. And so one of the things, again, that I just am so excited that we do in Baltimore City is that universal screening in kindergarten, because often these kiddos don't get picked up until a little bit later in their school career, if we don't have that strong ability measure early on to say, wait a minute, they have all this potential. What's going on that's kind of holding up their achievement? And so for many of our students, they are coded as gal, and they might also have a diagnosis of autism or ADHD, they might have a specific learning disability. So kind of teasing some of those things out can be a little bit of a challenge. Also, we know that there are a lot of comorbidities, so rarely do kids have just two areas of exceptionality. Often there are three or four and sometimes this can be a little bit tricky to figure out. Did that anxiety come before the learning disability or after the learning disability? Or, you know, if we address the dyslexia, can they then, you know, that anxiety might lessen a little bit, or is that part of the initial problem that we need to address? So twice, exceptionality is is definitely a tricky category to effectively work with, and I'm really lucky that we have some great people in Baltimore City in all different departments. So our 504 office special ed school psychologists that are you know, all interested in, how can we improve identification and services for these kinds of learners? Toni Rose Deanon 27:25 Oh, that's so great. That's just so great. And again, like you said, you know, this whole universal screening in kindergarten, really, that makes a huge difference, right? Like, we want to be able to catch it as soon as possible. And so I'm curious for students who are transferring into Baltimore City later on, not in kindergarten, maybe like third grade or 10th grade. Do they also get that universal screening done? How does that work? Alexandra Clough 27:52 Yeah. So that's again, part of where that policy helps, because policy says, yep, new entrants as well. So we screen in kindergarten, we screen new entrance absolutely, you know. And if somebody happens to kind of fall through the cracks because a school didn't realize they hadn't been screened, or whatever, again, we have some great tools where we can run a report and say, Hey, this student has not yet had a chance to take the naglieri, let's go back and make sure we get caught up and get them assessed as well. Toni Rose Deanon 28:24 Oh my gosh. Okay, okay, thank you. Thank you. We're answering all of these questions. I'm just so fascinated by all of it, and I know I've said that I'm just, I really am so excited to be learning about this. Okay, so how, how does self paced learning truly challenge and engage gifted minds, because we just talked about the twice exceptionality, right? They're gifted, and there's a learning difference slash disability, right? And so how, how could self pacing help with this? Could it help with this? Alexandra Clough 28:57 So and this is where the experience as a homeschooling mom absolutely links into this whole conversation, because that is the joy of homeschooling for my children, is that they are able to work at their own pace. And, you know, they are able to get through some material really, really quickly because of that gifted side of things. But then there might be another task that's more writing based, and they both struggle in that area that they might need a little longer on and that's okay, too. They don't have to kind of fit that mold of doing everything at the same time as somebody else who happens to be their age. So the self pacing. We know that one trait of gifted learners is that they tend to make connections a little quicker and pick up on something a little quicker and not need as much repetition as some of their same age peers might need. So your example of your sister saying, like, yeah, the teachers left me alone, but it was kind of like I already knew what was going to happen. We hear that from gifted kids sometimes, right, like that. It just they already knew the material before the lessons. Started, or maybe they didn't already know it, but they picked up on it really fast, and they didn't need to do 20 problems to be able to show yeah, I understand that now, and so that self pacing thing is just a beautiful fit with some of those traits of gifted learners. Toni Rose Deanon 30:18 Yeah, I was just reflecting also my past classroom years, right? I've definitely had some students who are gifted, but we did not have a class for the gifted and advanced learners, so they were just kind of put in the same, you know, group of students, which is fine, but I also struggled. I really struggled with meeting their needs, because I was like, I don't know what to do. Like, this is what we're covering, so we kind of have to cover it and and I don't know, I guess I No, it's good that I'm learning this now. Alexandra Clough 30:50 I'm glad you bring that up, though, because that is the case, like in most of our schools, gifted students are and again, back to our policy, gifted students are ideally clustered together so that there would be a small group, at least of them of likeability peers. But that doesn't mean that the teacher doesn't also have students with disabilities and students who are just kind of, you know, your nice, solid average for their grade level students. And so meeting all of those needs in one space can be really challenging, yeah, yeah. Toni Rose Deanon 31:21 And I remember too now, Alex, when I was in middle school, they'd put all of the quote, unquote, smart kids in one class and then separated us from the rest of the grade. And I don't know who came up with that idea, but you don't put a bunch of smart kids in one room and then expect for us all to behave. We did not behave. Alexandra Clough 31:42 I'm glad you mentioned that, because that is one of the other misconceptions about gifted learners. Like I've heard people say, Oh, that'll be the easy class, or There they go, No, Toni Rose Deanon 31:53 I mean the amount of teachers that we got to quit. And we saw that like we were proud of that we were awful. And I don't think that our school continued that plan, because again you put again you put kids who know the system right, who can think outside of the box. And so we were really mischievous, like we did everything and nothing at all, right? And so it was really difficult for a teacher to stay with us, because they were just like, we can't do this. We don't know what to do Alexandra Clough 32:26 exactly. I mean, these kids, we need to feed that curiosity and that creativity, because they will find ways to entertain themselves that will probably not be the ways we want them to entertain themselves Toni Rose Deanon 32:37 exactly. Because we were definitely entertained. The adults were not but we were. okay. So, you know, you said that, again, gifted is not federally mandated, right? Like the whole identifying gifted, like, of course, we can identify students who are gifted and advanced learners. However, there's really not a mandate of providing services for them, right? And so what could districts do to provide support for students who are gifted and advanced learners and they don't have those programs at their schools? Alexandra Clough 33:10 So it's very interesting. You know, we hear a lot of districts talking about differentiation, and one of the things I asked my graduate students to engage in is actually a debate between Carol Ann Tomlinson and Jim DeLisle, who are, you know, experts in gifted Ed, about whether differentiation actually works or not. And, you know, so delil wrote a piece for Ed Week, basically saying, we're asking too much of teachers, and I'm completely paraphrasing here, but, but saying that, you know, putting it all back on teachers, and saying we'll just differentiate without giving them enough support, just really doesn't resolve the issue, right? And then Tomlinson wrote a rubber bottle, which, I mean, she's amazing as well, and has given a lot of thought and attention to the ways that people can effectively differentiate. But I think what we see in practice is that it a lot of our teachers are not well equipped to just figure out how to differentiate. And so again, I think that's, you know, where, when Sandy and I were having that initial conversation, the question was, what can we do to help support teachers who have this range of of students in their classroom and don't feel like they really understand the how, they might know the why, and they might be really comfortable with Yes, I feel like this is something I should do, but Don't feel completely equipped with the how yet, Toni Rose Deanon 34:41 yeah, and you're bringing up a really good point about differentiation as well. When I was back in the classroom, I had lots of feelings about differentiation, that word, because nobody could tell me how to do it. I would get docked off of my teacher evaluation because I wasn't, quote, unquote, differentiating. And then when I would ask admin. And to model it for me, they also could not model it for me, and that, I think, was just such a point of contention, and that in my classroom years because I was like, I really want to know how, but like you said, there's just, there's very little support in the how of differentiating. And I think that's kind of where modern classrooms come in right of like, Oh no, okay, we'll show you how to do it. And there are multiple ways to of how to do it. It's not just one right way, right. And I think that's really exciting, because for the first time in my teaching career, was my 10th year of teaching, I felt like I was actually differentiating. Like that felt really good. And I think even if it's not just, you know, that also the support is also kind of for everything that we're expecting our teachers to do, not just differentiating, right? Like, you know, especially if we buy a tech tool and we're like, Okay, y'all figure out how to use this. Like, teachers just don't have capacity to do that on their own. That's kind of where the school leaders and district leaders can come in and create a space where teachers can explore, can play, can ask questions together in community, rather than them having to do it on their own and then messing up and then getting frustrated, right? So you know, we're talking about modern classrooms, which everyone knows is blended, self paced, mastery based learning, right? How? How does that model support, like the best practices in gifted education? Alexandra Clough 36:26 So I you know that self paced thing is really a big piece, both as a gifted learner going through school as a parent of of two, twice exceptional learners as a classroom teacher, providing that flexibility so that students who have demonstrated mastery aren't required to just sit and wait for other students to catch up. I had a student when I was a counselor who adorable kiddo in third grade, wanted to float the idea of helping some of his classmates learn some of the math that they were working on during recess so that the class could move faster. And I had to, because he was tired of waiting, and I had to explain to this little guy that, like great idea, but no, we're not going to do that like we're not going to make your friends have to sit and do extra work instead of getting their recess time, just so that you can move faster. But I think about students like him and and the negative consequences of being told no, no, you need to wait for other kids to catch up. And they really are. There are some, some significant negative consequences to that, academically, but also socially and emotionally, and the lessons that we are unintentionally teaching kids sometimes about what it means to learn. My own daughter said to me in pre K that she couldn't spell a word and she was already reading at that point because their teacher hadn't taught it yet. And I was like, No, that's what your teacher is teaching and what you have learned are not necessarily the same thing. And so I think that you know, when we talk about mastery based and self paced, those two pieces are really important to making sure that our gifted learners have good outcomes academically and socially and emotionally. Toni Rose Deanon 38:22 And you said, Okay, something popped up for me. And I don't know if you could answer this question, because you did mention the social emotional learning piece, right? And I know that again, in my K 12 experience, we had a student skip a grade, and so they ended up in my grade. And I remember being so frustrated because I was like, Man, I could have gotten valedictorian, but this kid just like, grabbed it all, and he was younger than me. Like, what is happening? So is that still a thing where students are skipping a grade? Alexandra Clough 38:49 Yes, it is okay, okay. And so again, one of the things in gifted Ed, kind of on a national level, that is often researched and discussed is acceleration. And, yes, there's grade skipping, but there are, you know, 20 different forms of acceleration, so that's just one of them. But we do know that, you know, holding a child back by making them wait for other children of the same age to be ready doesn't usually have good outcomes for that child, letting them move along at a pace that they're ready for often has better outcomes. Toni Rose Deanon 39:25 Yeah, I was gonna say to it, it kills that curiosity, you know, like Alexandra Clough 39:29 Exactly, and that's that's part of why I wanted to go into this field of social and emotional needs for gifted learners, was because there is that disconnect between this K 12 model of this is what an 11th grader looks like and what an 11th grader should do and what an individual person might be ready for. Toni Rose Deanon 39:55 Yeah, yeah. Such great points. You know you talked. About you and Sandy, trying to figure how you can better support teachers, right? Yeah, tell us more about that. Like, how do you support educators? I know that you all go in and visit schools like observe and then be a part of that learning community as well. You're not really just observing. You're also sitting with students, you know, having conversations with students, sometimes even teaching students. So how does that support look like for you all in Baltimore City? Alexandra Clough 40:28 So two of us that are educational specialists, my colleague, Esther and I, we spend a lot of our time out in k8 schools. Because I do feel like while we do have some time that we can address teachers during a systemic day. I really feel like that visit to the school, that job embedded as a part of what they're, you know, doing in their own environment is more effective sometimes than that district systemic day. And so we do spend a fair amount of time going into classrooms and, you know, helping teachers plan, and helping teachers problem solve and and kind of coaching them through some of those challenges. Toni Rose Deanon 41:12 So it's, it's basically a thought partner, right? Like, hey, if you need someone to think through how to plan this or how to reach this student, then we're here for you do teachers sign up for support? How does that work? Alexandra Clough 41:25 That we don't have, like, a formal structure for that? It tends to be more, you know, a teacher will reach out, or a gal lead will reach out and say, Hey, we're exploring using Jacob's Ladder. Could somebody come out and, you know, work with us about that? We had a school last week that is looking to go back and retest a bunch of fourth through eighth graders who weren't originally assessed with the naglie area or who may not have hit that ability threshold. And so I was a thought partner for them as they thought about what they could do to front load some analogical reasoning for them. And you know, then we'll get together and discuss, after they've had a chance to do those assessments, you know, how effective that was, are there things that we can tweak? Is that an idea that I can take to another school, and maybe they can use so a lot of that kind of piece? And then the other thing we're trying to do is form those opportunities like you were mentioning before, for that collaborative professional learning. So this evening, I have a PLC with a group of gal leads who are reading a book teach to develop talent, and we're talking about different ways to kind of increase that talent development opportunity in schools. So I think you know, it is important to have your people, your community, that you can bounce those ideas off and say, Hey, I'm wondering how I might approach this. Has anybody else done something similar? Toni Rose Deanon 42:52 Oh, I love that. Oh, that's so cool. That's so cool. And I'm sure you all are also just continuing to iterate, right and reiterate different things as well, lots of revision of like, oh, this worked. This didn't work. I'd love to try this one. I love that whole I love that. That's just really great. Okay, is there anything else that we should know about gifted education that we have not mentioned just yet? Alex, Alexandra Clough 43:14 I think we've gotten most of it. You know what? I think one thing that is a little bit it's kind of an aha moment sometimes for people, is that our gifted and advanced learners aren't aren't always super high achievers. So at some point, our gifted and advanced learners had some good standardized test scores. That's how they got identified. But just because they can doesn't always mean that they will. And I hear fascinating stories from people about kids who decided that their, you know, state math test just wasn't that exciting for them, and they weren't really going to try their hardest. And then people are looking at that score going, Wait, that doesn't make sense. That's a gifted learner. And so I think you know that disconnect sometimes between what they feel motivated to do and what might be expected of somebody that has that kind of GAL identified label on them, it doesn't always align perfectly. Toni Rose Deanon 44:15 And this is why it's so good to check your assumptions and your biases right not all gifted and advanced learners look the same way, act the same way, sound the same way, right? And so that that's such a great reminder. Thank you for saying that, because that is also an AHA piece too, that I have not heard. So thank you. Alexandra Clough 44:36 It's also something our parents share during our SENG groups, like we'll hear from parents, oh, my kid's just not motivated to do anything. Actually, your kid is super motivated to read that comic book series that they love. They're just not showing that same level of motivation with their math homework, you know. So figuring out what is it that they're interested in? And that's where, you know, again. Our ILPs are amazing, because one of the things that we ask kids is, what are you interested in? What would you like to learn more about? And then we try to write strengths based goals that align with what they are excited about. Toni Rose Deanon 45:12 Oh, and this is, again, it's just like a one of the better or the best teaching practices, right? Like, get to know your students, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, really, just create that relationship with them and get to know them. See what, see what excites them, see what they're inspired by, see what motivates them. And that's how you reach any and every kid, honestly, right? So, yep, thank you for that. Okay, so if let's if listeners want to know more about gifted education. Where should they start? I'm asking specifically about resources, programs, or anything that comes up for you. Alexandra Clough 45:48 Yeah, and I can share some things to put in the notes as well. So I mentioned NAGC earlier. That's the National Association for gifted children. They have a website. They also have an annual conference, I believe November. So that is a great place to go to learn more about all things gifted. There are also state level affiliates of NAGC. So in Maryland, we have MEGS, which is the Maryland educators of gifted students. And we have MCGATE, which is the Maryland Coalition for gifted and talented education. And they also have resources in terms of advocacy or learning experiences. MEGS has a conference each fall. I also mentioned SENG, which is supporting the emotional needs of the gifted. Again, great website with a lot of resources. But also they have a conference every July. This year, it's going to be in Alexandria, and not just for teachers like this is appropriate for mental health professionals, parents, medical professionals, all kinds of anybody who has any interest in social emotional needs of gifted throughout the lifespan. William and Mary. The College of William and Mary in Virginia has some great conferences around curriculum and twice exceptionality. And then we just recently had in Baltimore, the CEC conference, so Council for Exceptional Children, and they have a division called tag, so that focuses on gifted education as well. I would also recommend looking at your State Department of Education, because most of them have some page and information where you can find out more about what state policies and regulations are. And then I have to put a plug in for those teachers out there that might be interested in getting more of an education themselves in terms of gifted ed. So there are master's programs, but there are also programs, like the one I teach in which are a certificate program, so pretty quick to complete. In Maryland, we have several colleges that offer master's and or certificate programs. So definitely something to look for. Toni Rose Deanon 47:53 Oh, there's so many, so many resources that I was not aware of. So thank you for sharing that. We'll definitely put all of that in the show notes. And you know, Alex, I was just thinking about the CEC. I've heard multiple times from multiple people how folks need to go and attend CEC, because it's just an amazing experience. And so I'm gonna, I'm gonna tap your shoulder to put in a proposal, and let's present together, because this would be so dope. Honestly, Alexandra Clough 48:20 that would be so fun. So I did four sessions this year, and that was my first CEC conference, but I did one on twice exceptionality with a colleague. That was, it was a great experience. So, yeah, let's do it. Toni Rose Deanon 48:32 Yeah, it's gonna be in Salt Lake City. I already looked it up in 2026, there you go. Okay, well, Alex, what do you hope to see in the future, and what goals do you have? Alexandra Clough 48:40 So it's been really interesting having a high school senior this year and reflecting on my own kids years as homeschoolers. And so he just went through the process of having to do an interview for one of the colleges that he had applied to, and was kind of like, well, I'm not sure you know what I need to do to prepare. And they said, you know, just think about what you want them to know about you. Like, what would they like to know as a college about somebody coming in? And he came out with, well, I think I'm kind of an autonomous learner. And it was such a beautiful moment, because that's what I want for all kids. Like, I want all kids to feel empowered that they can learn about the things that they want to learn about when they're ready to do it, that there's not this lockstep timeline that they need to be in. And it was a real eye opener. When my kids started homeschooling, people would ask them how long they spent on school, and they would say like, oh, only an hour or two. Came to find out it was the things that they didn't enjoy, that they called school, and the rest of the day they were learning, but they didn't call it school because it just felt like fun and play. And I want that for all kids. I want all kids to enjoy learning so much that it feels like fun and play and and. They're just they feel like they have some control. Toni Rose Deanon 50:03 Oh, that's so lovely. That's so lovely. Well, Alex, thank you again for your expertise, your experiences. Yeah, this is really great. And I again, am so grateful for you sharing all of this and answering all of my questions. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks, listeners. Remember, you can always email us at podcast at modern classrooms.org and you can find the show notes for this episode at podcast.modernclassrooms.org We'll have this episode's video uploaded on modern classrooms YouTube channel and transcript uploaded by Friday. So be sure to check back to access those. Also, we are asking our listeners to leave a review. If this podcast has been helpful in supporting you to create a human centered learning environment through a blended, self paced and mastery based model, it does help other folks find it. Thank you all for listening. Have a great week, and we'll be back next Sunday. Zach Diamond 51:00 Thank you so much for listening. You can find links to topics and tools we discussed in our show notes for this episode, and remember. You can learn more about our work at www.modernclassrooms.org and you can learn the essentials of our model through our free course at learn.modernclassrooms.org you can follow us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. At modernclassproj, that's P, R, O, J, we are so appreciative of all you do for students in schools. Have a great week, and we'll be back next Sunday with another episode of the modern classrooms project podcast. Transcribed by https://otter.ai