Zach Diamond 0:03 Welcome to the modern classrooms project podcast. Each week, we bring you discussions with educators on how they use blended, self paced and mastery based learning to better serve their students. We believe teachers learn best from each other. So this is our way of lifting up the voices of leaders and innovators in our community. This is the modern classrooms project podcast. Zach Diamond 0:29 Hello, and welcome to episode number 185 of the modern classrooms project podcast. My name is Zach Diamond and I'm a middle school digital music teacher in Washington DC, and a modern classrooms implementer and mentor. And today I am joined by Dana Pelzman, a virtual visual art teacher in Montgomery County, Maryland, right outside DC. Welcome, Dana. I'm so excited to have you on the podcast. Dana Pelzman 0:53 Thanks for having me. I'm happy to be here. Zach Diamond 0:56 Of course, yeah, I'm I'm excited to talk about visual arts. This is a topic that I am not personally very familiar with. I teach music. And we do sometimes get lumped together in the arts, right. But actually, our topics are very different. And you know, it's funny, because being that we sometimes get lumped together, I've actually mentored a lot of art teachers. And so I've like seen a lot of different approaches to teaching art in modern classrooms. And it's definitely very interesting. There's like a lot of different ways that our teachers do it. And because they're art teachers, they're all very creative in the ways that they do it. So I am excited to hear from you about how you use modern classrooms to teach art in a virtual setting. That's just such an interesting, interesting thing to do. But before we get started, let's hear a little bit more about you. Dana, tell us about who you are, and how you started your modern classrooms journey. Dana Pelzman 1:52 So yeah, I am a virtual art teacher, visual art teacher. I primarily work with middle school students. I was in the classroom for about 16 years, and then COVID hit, and we're all virtual. And then my school system decided to open up a virtual school. And I've been with the school for three years, and my students are 100% virtual or unzoom. Only. And I haven't been in a physical classroom since March of 2020. When everything shut down, and I, I love working virtually, and I love incorporating MCP in my classes, it's really changed a lot. So the way I started with MCP was in August of 2022. So I was one year into teaching in this virtual school. I was listening to a podcast called Work Life with Adam Grant. I love all of his podcasts, and he had an episode called how to change your workplace. And an MCP teacher was featured on the podcast and I'm listening to this person talk about how they're incorporating the MCP model into the classroom. And I was thinking this is incredible. I have got to learn more about this program. And I went right to the website that evening and I signed on for the online course the free one, and I'm so grateful it was free. And I completed the course. And then you know, this was August 2022. So school was starting right around the corner. And I just threw myself into all things MCP. I was listening to tons of podcasts. I joined the MCP Facebook group. And I was just doing as much as I could to understand how to just get myself on boarded with this philosophy and then, you know, incorporating it in real time into my classroom. So starting to fall 2022 is when it all began. Zach Diamond 4:04 Yeah, I love that. I love that I get to link something new. I feel like it's become a little bit of a running joke that, that I've always looking to the Edutopia video, which I guess now that I mentioned that I have to link it again. But I love what you came to modern classrooms through a completely different and new avenue from what people have heard about on this podcast anyway. So I will link to that and I will check it out work life with Adam Grant. I'd never heard of that podcast. Dana Pelzman 4:27 How cool. Oh, yeah, it's really good. Yeah, he I think it was aired August 11 2022. You can still find it in the archives. Zach Diamond 4:36 Noting that, folks, I'm gonna have that one in the show notes. So definitely check it out. Although I suppose if you're listening to this podcast, you already in classrooms, but I'm gonna listen to it. I'm curious. Anyway, so cool. A virtual class like, in some ways, it feels like a holdover from COVID. But I actually think that a virtual school Um, I know that there are some modern classrooms, teachers who are still working in virtual schools or virtual academies. And I love that idea that we would offer the option to students. So I guess Dana, like to start this podcast off, can you kind of like set the scene for us? I think that most teachers have gone back into schools. And even if we haven't forgotten what it was like to teach virtually, I think that we're sort of back to what would be a more traditional normal in the school buildings. And I also wonder, like, how Virtual Teaching has changed since the pandemic, but just like, in general, I would love to hear, especially because this is visual art, like, just a rundown of how your class works, what it is that you do, like, walk us through a typical class, a typical day? What's it? What's it like being in your class and being the teacher of your class? Dana Pelzman 5:50 Sure, so So before I get into that, I will say that there is an element of that rollover, where it does still feel like the COVID piece, right, we're all still virtual. But on the other hand, the expectations are totally different. And everyone is prepared. We're not in firefighting mode. So I don't I don't, I'm not teaching in a state of chaos and disarray. I'm, you know, my systems are in place, my my students know where they need to go. Everyone knows the Zoom links. So it's definitely organized. And it's, it feels like a school, it really does except for the fact that we are not in person. So in terms of my classroom, the way my my class is structured, especially as it's supported by the MCP model, is that when students come in, we have our check in and we review our agenda. And then we go right into the pacing tracker, that pacing tracker is is the my saving grace for operating in a virtual setting, because it allows for the most effective two way communication with my students. They don't have to email me that they've completed an assignment, they don't have to send me a note in the chat that they completed an assignment and I told them not to anyway, because it gets lost in there. And I also don't love my you know, my inbox getting filled up. I use the tracker as the main system for my classroom and as a as just as, as a teacher, and it's just a person, I'm a very systems oriented educator. And just to function in this world, I really like systems. So we use that tracker as a two way communication tool. And I have dropdowns in there that are all preset and color coded. And so if they are having completed an assignment or even having started it, doing something now right to doing now feature, they've completed it versus submitted the assignment because I think those are two different components completed, it's usually for a should do. And a submitted is generally for a must do. So as they know those are graded. I have a please revise feature on the drop down. They can change it to revised please grade. They can also change their feature to complete it, please grade if are submitted please grade if they've already submitted the must do. And then I can change it to graded. So they know that the grade is in I find these Canvas as our LMS. And I find that the the communication from Canvas and what it's been resubmitted for revisions is not always accurate, especially with discussion posts. The first discussion I see that it was submitted but if they need to revise it, I have to go check comments and I think that's just like more clicks for me. So they can indicate where they are on an assignment with that with with the drop down of saying like you know that it's been revised. And I also have a hand raised, I need help drop down feature in the pacing tracker. So they never feel alone. They always know that they can share their status are changed their status on the tracker, and I will see it and then we can have conversations about it in class. And then I can update it or they can update it and so it's just this constantly moving product. And I also have all of our projects divided by tabs at the bottom of the tracker so we don't have multiple trackers for project I had one tracker per class in every every every unit is a set is a different tab at the bottom. And I changed the color coding on the tab. So I would say the ones that are no longer in play turn black. And the one that is in play in a dissolvable spreadsheets, the one that isn't plays red, and they're all labeled. So they always know where are they are in space. And then once they're done, I'm off and they do not complete. And they know they can move on. And, and if they're not, they're still in revise mode are still in behind pace mode. And they know they can always go back and see where they are. And they have incredible autonomy to change their change their status. So that that is you when class starts like we're there, we're seeing where we left off. It's also really helpful for any of my kids who have executive functioning challenges. They don't remember where they were last class. Any kids who were absent. Any kids who had tech issues and could join zoom. Maybe they were in an appointment, you know, whatever it is, they know it's there. And they say things like, I wish my other teachers would use this. Because they never have to just wonder, Where are the what are we doing? And what did I leave off? And I think with the way that LMS systems are structured, they're not super user friendly for our kids. And they're, sometimes for the teachers to or for the parents. You're right. So when we have a clear system that's consistent across all units, that's color coded, that they can change, and I can change and is not reliant on, you know, did I step in is not submitted, shall I revise it? Should I not revise it? It's like, it's all there. Yeah. And so so that's where we start. Zach Diamond 11:53 Yeah, I love the idea that students can edit the tracker, and like edit their own status. I feel like that's, I feel like for the most part, what I remember when I was teaching virtually, like the tracker was also my saving grace, at the beginning of every class, we would all look at the tracker, I would share my screen on Zoom, and we would look at the tracker. And everything that you said resonates with with me and my experience, except for the part where they can edit the tracker themselves that I never had them do that. And that sounds really cool. Because I mean, first of all, it gives them some amount of ownership over it, right? Like they're telling you. And it's like a conversation through the tracker, right? It's like there's an amount of trust and autonomy in you letting them do that, that I think is so cool. But also like functionally. It's also it sounds like it's so much easier for you to keep track of what's going on. Because on my tracker, I only have basically like mastered and revise or blank, meaning that they haven't submitted it yet. Right. And I'm using Google Classroom to keep track of those submissions. So like, I need to check classroom to see if they've submitted something yet. And then I need to look at it and decide to revise it. And then I need to keep checking classroom, if they had to revise it to see when they resubmit it. Like it's a lot of back and forth. And if I could just put that into my tracker. And they could tell me, it would actually make things so much easier. That's a really, really cool idea. Dana Pelzman 13:17 I'm glad you like that. Yeah, it's actually funny that you say that. So in all of the podcasts I was listening to, and all of the Facebook posts, I was watching, I was noticing that every blind, all the teachers were owning the tracker, and they were the ones who were changing the kids status. And I thought to myself, like that's just not, it's not going to work for my personality, it's also not going to work in a virtual space. And so, yeah, so they they really built, I haven't had a single issue, like no one's gone in and like, you know, mess the whole thing up. I also allow kids to put I have a sticker column on the far right, and then their first name, and then you know, it reads to the right from there. And I have what an emoji keyboard hyperlinks there. And so the kids grab emoji stickers and put them next to their names just as like a fun way to Oh, cool. You know, if they put whatever they want, they can change it whenever they want. It's just you know, personalizes it just a little bit. Zach Diamond 14:16 I love that. Now, when they submit something, and it's time for you to determine if they mastered that lesson. Do Are you like do you get to put that or can they they can't put that they've mastered a lesson. Right? Okay, can they Dana Pelzman 14:33 No they can put whatever they want. I'll go back and override it though. Zach Diamond 14:36 Right? Dana Pelzman 14:37 So if I see that they've done they said they've made feel that they've mastered the lesson based on what we've done, then they might say I've mastered it but I'm going to go back and we're going to check and discuss and they might have to revise got it. And you know, I think I think it also gives perspective when we have a middle schooler who thinks that they've mastered something right. And then when we have an adult who comes in and says, You know what, I think we can push you a little bit further on this one. So it also takes a little bit of the weight off of me to, to facilitate those mastery checks all the time, and to give them a little bit more autonomy. Zach Diamond 15:24 Right. Dana Pelzman 15:25 So it's working. Zach Diamond 15:26 So it's basically like one of a couple of different, I guess, flags, you could call them that you need to look at something. Dana Pelzman 15:33 Yes, Zach Diamond 15:33 got it. Dana Pelzman 15:34 100% 100%. And it also helps because I can see many kids racing and you know, rushing through the whole thing. It's like, whoa, wait, yeah, let's back up for a minute. I think we've missed a couple of steps. And then they go home and play for because it's tangible, because it's on a spreadsheet, they can see what they missed. Yeah. Versus if I just have like, a bunch of assignments. And they say, which ones are supposed to do first? Zach Diamond 16:01 Yeah. I love that. What a cool idea. Your tracker sounds like next level to me. Dana Pelzman 16:06 Happy happy to share a template of it. Zach Diamond 16:12 Oh, that would be fantastic. If I could put that in the show notes. Yeah, for sure. Awesome. Yeah, I'm gonna look at it myself. And just like, try it out, too. Because that sounds awesome. I will say, I have had, I also teach middle school and I have had the experience of students all editing the same document, and it did not go well. So no. Dana Pelzman 16:35 It's not like that, though. Because they're not all it's not active. Yeah. It's only active when you change your status. It's not like they're all writing paragraphs in the document. Yeah. And they just kind of have it open and it runs idle, until they update their status. And then you know, we move on. Zach Diamond 16:55 Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, so definitely, I'll link that in the in the notes. And I will be checking that out myself and listeners, too, as well. So what else besides the tracker? Sure, tell me more. Dana Pelzman 17:08 So. So I have never done instructional videos before, like in like, pre MCP. And when I was introduced to the concept of them, I mean, I just wanted to like, you know, hit myself over the head, like, how can I miss that? Low hanging fruit? Like, how did I just not realize it? Yeah. And also, I remember in the training, they talked about that the videos really shouldn't be longer than six to nine minutes in length. And there was like, a whole section on on on attention span, and nine minutes was like, the like the peak, I think. And I thought, okay, I really need to be more mindful. Because, you know, we're often encouraged to share recordings of our zoom classes, and I'm thinking, I have an AB schedule. 80 minutes, No, nobody's sitting through an 80 minutes. Like, there's just no way if they miss class, so I. So after the tracker, we go into our Google site. And so I decided that for me, and for the work that I do, I don't put any content into my LMS, I put all my content into a personalized Google site. For my students. All assignments are in the LMS. But all instructions and content and add puzzles or videos, and all of that is all in the in the Google site. It really keeps, keeps the the visuals aligned with how I want students to receive the information versus the limitations that I have on the LMS. I think what you use is probably much cleaner. You know, in terms of like, you know, it looks like the Google product. And for me, and for me with my own methods. Zach Diamond 19:00 Yes, no, I'm definitely very familiar with both Google Classroom and canvas. And I will say that classroom is significantly more streamlined. Dana Pelzman 19:08 Yeah. 100% 100%. So anyway, we go to the Google site, and all my instructional videos are there. All of our units are there is drop down menus, everything is listed as either the must do or the should do. And so every must do, should do mastery check, aspire to do is all a separate page on the website. So if we go to let's say, unit one, then it'll have every single assignment in unit one. And the naming convention correlates to what's in the tracker. So they can't say to me, but I don't I don't see it in the Google site. And it's like, well, no, it's right here and it says the same name as in the tracker. So it just keeps everything. Again, I'm a Systems person, so it keeps everything totally Mind? Zach Diamond 20:00 Yeah, no, that's huge. That's really huge. Because there are two different sort of streams right there two different parallel streams. And if the names are the same, it's just like, the connection is so much clearer. 100%. On board with you there? Yes. Dana Pelzman 20:13 And then it also has to be the same name in the LMS. Yeah. So you know, you just have to be really, I have to be mindful of like, how I'm how I'm naming things, and just making sure I make up something new in the moment. So we go to the Google site, and I might do a quick walkthrough of whatever new content I've put in, you know, just saying, Here's instructional video, here's the link to, you know, maybe a YouTube video or to an ad puzzle, or to the kami link or, you know, whatever it is we're doing, and then fielding questions. And then they're off and running. I usually divide up my, my Zoom Room, you know, because if I was in a physical classroom, everyone's at their own table, but I'm not. So I set up my breakout rooms in three categories. Were our, our, I guess, mascot, you could call it is an anchor where we have like a nautical theme for our school. So the room that students can work in independently, if they don't need my direct help is called the sailboat. And so you know, the idea that, like you're out of the water, you're just hanging out, join the breeze, and I'm in the cell. But with that, so I've been multiple, I use multiple screens while I'm teaching. So I can see the sailboat and they can talk to me, and they can chat with me, but they can't hear me. Because here on my main screen, what I kind of free myself as the lifeguard, you're on the shore with me, I'm giving you support. We're talking about your work. I'm helping you one on one. And then I have the lifeboat where students help another student, they go to lifeboat together so I can open up multiple lifeboats. And then if they're done with everything in the unit complete and are in the Aspire to dues, I'll open up a party. And so kids can go to the party boat, do the Aspire to dues together. Zach Diamond 22:15 I love that. I love that actually just love the idea of the sailboat even just sort of like, I guess, metaphorically like, yeah, as a way to think about the students who are working independently, right? Like some kids, we've always, you know, we've often talked about how a modern classroom just kind of runs itself, you know, which is, it's not exactly true, like the teacher does have a big job to do, of course, but like there are often kids who are working without needing to interact with the teacher. And I love the idea of a sailboat where they're just kind of like riding the waves and like chilling out at sea, you know, and doing their thing. While the teacher is in on the shore being the lifeguard that's really fun. I like that idea as a sort of framework for thinking about our job in a modern classroom. And I'll tell you, Dana Pelzman 23:00 I don't think that that setup could have worked without the modern classroom foundation. I think they would have been like, so what am I doing in the sail boat? Zach Diamond 23:11 Yeah, yeah, Dana Pelzman 23:12 we know what I'm working on, you know, that it would have been very confusing, but I have full confidence that they're on it. And I watched the tracker, the tracker updates, or I'm saying hey, and see when the kami what's going on here. And and, you know, it's it's definitely an orchestra that, you know, it's taken me some time to get to work, but it's really, probably, I sometimes I feel like my better virtual teachers and I was an in person teacher. For the, you know, for the support of the MCP? Zach Diamond 23:40 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I definitely feel like I'm a better teacher after MCP than I was before MCP. So, you know, like, I, it's interesting. MCP? Well, I mean, we're doing the work, right, we have the modern classrooms framework to work within, but like, giving those students in the sailboat something to do is the key, I think, right? Because otherwise, it's like you would have in a traditional classroom, you might have given the instruction once or a couple times, and then just let them all loose to work, right. And then you would check in with the kids who needed it. But like, having all this setup, having the tracker that, that they can interact with to see where they need to go, having the stuff on the LMS that is consistent with the tracker as well, like the naming convention is the same, and they know what it looks like and where to find it. That makes it so that when they're out on the sailboat, they're not just taking a nap, you know, or like, doing whatever. They have something to do and they know what to do, and they know where to find it. And so in that sense, I agree. Like I think that modern classrooms gives them the students the structure they need to do something when they're not being guided by the teacher. And I think that that's why it's so useful in a self guided class like this Dana Pelzman 25:00 Yeah, I totally agree. And just to add, I think the intrinsic motivation piece is, I don't think initial when, you know, we start out with our students, but I think it really develops and, and that's we want, right the extrinsic to become intrinsic. And I just love the fact that they can own it. And I, you know, I have some kids, of course, I need to follow up with and, you know, remind them what to do, we need to, they need a little bit more support. But, you know, for the vast majority, I am not concerned, because they know that they are getting totally, because they want to get it done. Zach Diamond 25:41 Yeah, totally. So, we're gonna continue our discussion of sort of, like just the, I guess, broad overview of how your class works like what your class actually is. But I'd like to steer the conversation a little bit more specifically towards the teaching of art now. So yeah, just pick up where you left off and tell us we were talking a lot about your pacing tracker, and your LMS. But now, tell us a little bit more about how you teach art virtually using modern classrooms. Dana Pelzman 26:07 Sure. So my students are able to create their art either by hand, or using digital platforms, I'm very flexible in how they create with with a few exceptions, we have many students who love working on digital platforms, like I was paint X or procreate. And then we have other students who really have no experience with that, and would rather be on Clucky, or rather, use their colored pencils that they have at home. So we give them a bag of art supplies. And sometimes that works well, and they have the art supplies, and they don't get lost or broken or ruined. And other times, that doesn't work so well. So when I'm teaching a skill, or I'm teaching a concept, I know that I need to be really flexible about how that filler concept is, is created by the students. And for me, the process is more important than I don't want to say the product. But the process is more important than how they got to that point. So if it's on the back of an envelope with a pencil, that's okay. It has to be okay. And if they ended up using a pen, because they didn't have a pencil, or they had a pencil, but no sharpener, then that has to be okay. So, you know, I find that in my my former art teacher self, in our teachers can often fall into this, I don't know if it's a trap, but we kind of fall into this mindset, that when we're using a certain material, that's the material we're using. And they're it's hard unless you have a choice based classroom, it's hard to have differentiation with materials. But because I'm following the MCP model, I really love that there's acceptance of more freedom. We don't have to be in lockstep with everything. And I think, I think that is often how we're taught to teach that everyone's moving at the same pace. And I know I've heard this on the podcast, Facebook page and on the in the web and the training online. You know, that's, that's not the mission and vision of MCP, we really want kids to be able to learn at their own pace and according to their needs. So when I am teaching, let's say we're doing something relating to the color wheel. If they did it digitally, and they didn't mix the color, they didn't mix of red and yellow to make orange and they just selected orange. Well, that's okay. Because they knew the answer was orange. Right? So they missed out on on mixing the color big deal, but they know now might I give them like an equation with boxes with one white empty box with a plus sign and other white empty box with an equal sign and another white empty box and underneath it are they supposed to write in indicate with color red plus yellow, it was orange, and we can do that too. So I you know, I have to flex and how I approach a lot of the learning for my class. Zach Diamond 29:37 This is interesting, I think like, it's funny. I agree with you completely. I think that like accepting different sort of styles of response. It's interesting, because on the one hand, you're right, it is very flexible. But on the other hand, I see it as an almost like surgical precision in terms of what But the objective is, right, you have to know exactly specifically what you want them to show you. And that specificity gives them the ability, I guess, or the option, the flexibility to choose different ways of showing you. Does that make sense? Like, on the one hand, you have to I've had to learn to like accept many, many different responses and be like, actually, yeah, that does do what I asked, that does show what I wanted you to master, you did master it. It's not exactly what I expected. But it does show that you learn what I asked you to, or what I taught you. And on the other hand, I have now had to be like, Okay, I really, really need to strip this down and know exactly what I'm asking for, because I'm gonna get a lot of responses. And I need to be able to tell if they meet the objective. Dana Pelzman 30:48 Yeah. And I mean, I think a lot of times the challenge with that is our own ego. Yeah, right. Yeah. We're, we're the specialists. We're the we're the creators of this whole classroom experience. And, you know, they're up feel like if it's not my way, it's wrong. Yeah. And I think NCP has really given me the freedom to say, you know, it doesn't have to be my way. It can be their way within my framework. And it's, it's, it's been awesome. Zach Diamond 31:24 Yeah, yeah. I love that. I think that's really cool. I mean, actually, my, the next question that I wanted to ask you was going to be about your mastery checks, because I always want to talk to art teachers. And I guess like creative field teachers, like I would consider this question that could apply to a music teacher as well. Like, how do you design mastery checks? When art can be so diverse, right? Like how, and I liked the way you put it, like, how do we remove our ego from our mastery checks, and allow our students to make their own individual art, while still demonstrating that they learned what we were hoping for them to learn from us? Does that make sense? Like, how do you how do you put that ethos into practice in your mastery checks, or I guess just in general? Dana Pelzman 32:11 Well, I think, to be honest, I have very few grading criteria with those checks. So I can give you an example of an assignment. My eighth graders did something called our neuro graphic, art, and graphic, neuro graphic. It's really cool. It's a, it's the idea behind it, it's used in some art therapy, is how to infuse mindfulness into a work of art. And at the same time, how can we make a connection between how synapses in the brain really look like if I was looking at an image of synapses in the brain, and then taking the mindfulness piece, and the and what synapses look like and do a mash up, basically, and make this really cool, abstract art. And I often like we do a lot of, you know, self portraits and still life, but I often find that the abstract pieces just are so much more calming with the kids, because everyone's going to look different. And that's actually the goal, Zach Diamond 33:27 right? And they don't have to get so hung up on like, the specific art skills that they may not have developed yet. Dana Pelzman 33:33 Exactly the highlight the shadow, maybe they maybe they submitted a really bad photograph. So their artwork actually doesn't look great, because it's a bad photo. So like, you know, there's there's that piece of working in the Zoom format, but going back to their graphic art, so in order to do the mastery check for this, they needed to show a continuous line. That was that was part of it, they had to have softened their their intersecting lines, and you basically like quit kind of like a curvature on these intersecting lines. And they needed to have a high level of craftsmanship. So did they take care of their work and kind of have a high level of creativity do they think outside the box within sort of the framework of the project? And that's it. And I think if I had more criteria, like they had to have, I don't know every every edge of the of the neuro graphic line drawing had to be softened or curved to look like the synapses and they missed one will that that doesn't do anybody good because now I'm consequences them because they missed something. That doesn't work. Yeah, maybe they only did three quarters of them in a sort of like softened three quarters of these little corners. Is that good enough? That's good enough for me? That's fine. It's okay that they didn't, didn't, you know, hit all of them? And is their artwork doesn't look like they gave it a good amount of craftsmanship. Okay, does it look like they were as creative as they could be? Did they add color, which was optional, did they, you know, use a black sharpie marker or use a thick black line, they did it digitally, to sort of enhance the line that they drew as an option. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. But do they feel good about their work? You know, that's not part of the check. But I've that's how I want them to feel. Because the check can say whatever you want it to say. But at the end of the day, if the kid feels like junk about themselves, because they didn't meet all of these criteria that you've created for them, then I feel like I failed them. Because that means I'm not teaching to the whole child. And that means they have a they don't want art, they don't like art, art, it's hard for them, right. And we have kids who talk about that math, and English. And you know, my goal is for them to say I can I can be present in a space and talk about art, look at art, appreciate art, have a sense of my own aesthetic. And, and, you know, if they come out of my class, with those skills and that confidence, then I feel like I've done my job. Zach Diamond 36:31 I love that. I love everything about that. And I think that I see in my students like I have a very similar opinion. I've, I feel like I've talked about this before on the podcast, like I, I can't quite find the words to express what I'm trying to get at here. But this idea of like a very broad, but also very specific. I don't want to say constraints but like guardrails, right? Like we can tell if the student has not successfully done the thing. And we can sort of guide them back. I think of it like the like when you take a young child bowling, and they have those like inflatable tubes in the gutters, you know, it's like, it keeps them within the lane, so they can't like falling into the gutter. But if they don't if they don't do it, they didn't actually fall into the gutter. Like it's not a failure, like in bowling, we can help to like bounce them back. Right. Dana Pelzman 37:25 And I feel like that was literally my visual an hour ago. Like make a tangible reference. And yeah, it was bowling gutters, but bowling back bowling. What did you call them? Zach Diamond 37:38 Inflatable thingamajigs. Exactly. Yeah. Like i It's because I don't know, I feel like it's not the same as us being like, oh, all your art is amazing. Everything you do is amazing. Because that's like false praise, right? It's, it's like, if they make something that they genuinely think is good. And we need to give them critique, we can give them critique and help them improve. And we can frame it in that way, right? Like your artwork. I'm so glad that you love this because it means you're into making art, or in my case, music. I want to help you make one thing a little bit better about it. So like let's work on making this line continuous if it's broken, I don't know. But like it's, it's a it's a way of acknowledging the student's contribution to the artwork, and acknowledging the fact that the student has interest in the artwork that that you're teaching them and that they made without saying, art has to be this way. Because this is art class, right? Like there's a there's no, there's just an amount of like, sort of acknowledgment of the students contribution to the whole thing. When you when you make a mastery check or even a broader project where the guardrails are wide, right? But they're still firm like they're there so that students know that they're doing it right. And they know what to do. And they can still experiment a lot within those guardrails because that's what art is, right? Like, when real artists make art or when real musicians make music. There are no guardrails. Like we can do anything, you know, and I can I know enough music theory to like compose a song that is informed by tradition, and you know what music I've listened to. And my students may not have that experience, and they can still, like bang away on a piano and actually come up with something that's cool. Especially if I tell them only play these three keys, they don't need to know why. But like, I have the knowledge to say these three keys will sound good. So just use these three keys. And I just think that like it lets them authentically create something right, authentically create art, and that's what we're really trying to do. We're not trying to, you know, indoctrinate them with what the right quote unquote kind of art is. By teaching it to them, you know, it's like we want them to make something that's theirs. I don't know, everything you're saying is just super, it's just really resonating with me. Because I completely agree. I completely agree. Yeah, Dana Pelzman 40:11 I just to add on, I think it's, I think it's hard to come, it takes time to come to this place, as someone who teaches in the arts to get to a place where you hang your ego up at the door, and you sort of drop the the intensity that students need to follow your vision and mission of how something should should go. I don't think this is something that there any you know, new arts teachers listening, or, you know, fine arts, whether it's music or art. No, I don't, this is not what they teach you in school, they teach you really, like I mentioned before that lockstep method that everyone is moving at the same pace on the same day. And, you know, eventually you get to a place where you're like, hey, wait, it doesn't have to be like that. And actually, it might not be as successful. And, you know, it's just sort of a newfound freedom. Yeah. Zach Diamond 41:08 Yeah, I was gonna say like, it's kind of like, there's like an activation energy to it. Because once you get over the hump, and realize that students can do this, and it's fine, like the class continues and carries on, it's way better, like, they are more motivated, they feel more seen, you mentioned teaching the whole child, right, like, they feel like you acknowledge their whole existence, and you're not trying to put them into a box. You know, and, and also, like, the conversations that I have with my students are more meaningful, because they are more bought in they want to make art. They, they, maybe they hear it, or they can see it in their mind. And they just don't know how to put it on paper, or in my case to make it sound right. And they asked like they want to know. And so it once you do get over that hump, and do get to a place where you're in a class, allowing the students to like, make their own art and guiding them by putting those broad guardrails in place. It's amazing, like, it's, it's a different experience, teaching that kind of an art class, and I would never, ever consider going back. Even if I were to teach traditionally, like putting aside modern classrooms, like I want to be a music teacher, or any kind of teacher, if I teach, I want to teach in a way that like, my students have that kind of buy in with their work, and they feel like they are doing the work for themselves. And I am guiding them as their teacher who maybe has more knowledge and experience. Right, but like, it's theirs. They're making the art, they're making the music. Dana Pelzman 42:39 And that's what will propel them to be lifelong lovers of the earth. Exactly. Because they had to say, yeah. Zach Diamond 42:51 Okay, well, that was an incredibly, like, amazing, I don't even know what to say, I feel like I'm speechless. We I definitely think that you and I agree, and are approaching our music and art classes in a very similar way, like in a way that is open ended, and leaves so much space for our students to like, bring themselves into the class. And, and I love that, and I hope that listeners can hear. Like, I hope that listeners can get a sense of like, how rewarding that is for both of us. I mean, I'll speak for myself, it sounds like it is for you, too. Yeah, amazing. You know, I wanted to ask you also, because this is a big thing in arts classes, when students are creating, like, we talked a lot about how students have been bringing themselves into this class, right? Another big part of arts classes is sharing that work, right? It's art, like the whole point of it is to share. And in my case, it's music, we also share our work, right? I'd be curious to hear how students, especially in your virtual class, how they share their work and how they critique each other's work. And, you know, I asked this because I think in a self paced class, I think modern classrooms wise, I'm curious to hear how you make that happen when they're all self pacing, right? How you sort of like, rein everybody in and have everyone doing the same thing at the same time, if that's the case, but also, I'm curious to hear like, mechanically, how those critiques or reflections work in a virtual space? Dana Pelzman 44:22 Sure. So um, so I'm going to answer in two parts. Let's talk mechanical. Okay. So I mentioned my Google site that is earlier and that I'm super systems oriented. So one of the pages in the Google site is a sketchbook page. And so at the beginning of the year, everybody makes a sketchbook, I give them a template from Google Slides. And I set up the first probably three to five slides depending on what we're doing. And they're already titled, and they're, they're in the speaker notes below. There are instructions on what they need to do for Each slide and it's all pretty basic like insert image of artwork, title, artwork, and data. I mean, it's it's pretty basic. But all of the Google Slides are linked to the Google site. So the linking mechanism is set up so that the students, each student can click on their own sketchbook which are put in as buttons on the on the site. And they can access their, their sketchbook there versus going through the LMS, or going through their Google Drive. And then they can edit it. But everybody else is set to only view the sketchbook. So here we have two students, a student a can edit their sketchbook but Student B can view student A's sketchbook but can't edit it. And so once I set it and forget it, so once I set the permissions it's done for the year. Zach Diamond 45:59 That's amazing. Yeah, Dana Pelzman 46:01 so as a result, I can say, Hey, student a, can you go check students see artwork, they did a really great job on fill in the blank, maybe you can get an idea from what they did. So I've used it for that. In that format. When we do reflections, sometimes we're doing them orally, sometimes they're in breakout rooms. And you know, I give them sentence frames we do, like glow and grow. And sometimes we do it as a discussion post in our discussion assignment in, in Canvas. So really, it really depends. I've also used figma, or FIG dam, and then how you want to call it and sometimes students will put a screenshot of their artwork in in the big jam. And then we have a board where we're collaborating together, I'm looking at everyone's work almost like you would if it was a bulletin board, and everyone is in the same space. So you know, I've played around with this in a lot of different ways, I don't think there's one best way but I do think having the sketchbooks set up, the way I have them set is really helpful. And then within the sketchbook at the end of every quarter, so our quarters ending next week. So before, by the time the listeners are listening to this, it'll probably be over. They are do a reflection. And so I manually put in a slide for the reflection slide. And then I will manually put in their next slide that titles are next quarter. So I do some manual work in their sketchbooks. And so they get a sketchbook check at the end of every quarter, which is the same as it would be if we were in a physical classroom, right? And then they have a record of all their work. Yeah, Zach Diamond 47:51 I love this sort of like digital version of the analog sketchbook Can you talk? Because some of our listeners may not be art teachers, right? I'm curious if you could explain just what the sketchbook is. I know it's like a really sort of like, integral part of art classes in general. Can you just like describe that briefly, in general, not just as much as your class, but like in general, this sketchbook What's it for? Dana Pelzman 48:12 So I think I think they're, you know, they're different iterations of the sketchbook, but it's essentially the the visual crux, a chronological visual tracking mechanism of all of the work that the student has done over a period of time. So some people, you know, have a personal sketchbook, and let's say they're drawing or doodling in it, or doing collages in or who knows all sorts of things within it, a writing in it. And in a classroom, you know, some teachers want to see all of the sketches, and all of all of the pieces of evidence to to help know how the students thought and process the project that they were working on. thumbnails, small sketches, bigger sketches, it's not a place to put your final product. Everything in the sketchbook generally speaking, are things that are in process. And that's part of your ear thinking, you know, it would you could consider it like a journal, but in visual journal, but there's writing in it to it, I don't really feel like sketchbooks really have a role to feel like it's just sort of, you know, put, put what you want in their face on either with telephone and tells you to put in there because it's a class or what you want to put yourself in are in my case is a compilation of both ongoing artifacts, so maybe sketches. And then I also have them put the final piece in there too. So you could say that's more of a portfolio. I think, you know, we could get into semantics on this but it's, we just call it a sketchbook because I think our portfolio is a little more fine. ate a little more refined in this is definitely a lot more many more things in there that I would call sketches. So, so it also it's a beautiful way to create a timeline, where I started and where I ended as an artist. Zach Diamond 50:17 Yeah, that's sort of like the role I'm imagining of a sketchbook I actually I, my first year at my current school, I shared a classroom with an art teacher and I would watch him teach art. And the sketchbook was like ubiquitous, it was used all the time for all sorts of different things. Like he would do critiques in it, like they would do a gallery walk, and the kids would walk around with their sketchbooks writing down their comments, or they would like sketch up ideas and do all sorts of stuff. Like I guess, like in a physical sketchbook, you can't exactly like put your final product in there in the same way that you can with a digital sketchbook that you just put in a picture of it, right. But I agree, like calling it a sketchbook. It names its role more than what it actually is specifically, right. Yeah. Yeah. Very, very cool. And Dana Pelzman 51:03 I'll add on it's also really great for when parents say, Hey, can you tell me my kids artwork? Zach Diamond 51:09 Yeah, right. Yeah, cuz it's all right there. Dana Pelzman 51:12 And then if it's in a physical classroom, I might not have it at my disposal. But in a digital classroom, you better believe I can pull it up in a couple of clicks. Zach Diamond 51:19 Yeah, that's awesome. That's awesome. And I love the idea of setting the permissions and then like letting other students in to see each other's sketchbook. Dana Pelzman 51:27 Yeah, absolutely. And I make it clear. Like, like, this is, this is how I'm running this classroom. Like, you're not gonna have secrets in the sketchbook like, this is an open forum for us to learn from each other. Zach Diamond 51:41 Yeah, that's so cool. And I, you were mentioning is sort of like ad hoc critiques, right? Like, are like, you're working on this. And I know that student a also worked on this, and they did a really good job. So maybe you'll take a look at their sketchbook like, I love that, that it gives you like a little. It's like a teaching tool, right? Like it's it's a, I call it an ad hoc critique. It's almost more like a way of encouraging them to collaborate. Dana Pelzman 52:06 Yeah. And then I can send them to the to the lifeboat. And they can help each other Oh, oh, the one who did the thing well in the sketchbook and the other one who needs help? So it's like, hey, why don't you guys go out and have a conversation about this, and then they come back. And, you know, I have a kid who feels really good, because they help somebody and another one feels really good, because they have an answer to a problem. Zach Diamond 52:29 That's amazing. I love that. And so maybe you said this, and I didn't catch it. Are there like whole group critiques? Or do you ever do like whole group? I don't know how, like a virtual gallery walk or some kind of share out like that? Or is it all sort of asynchronous critiquing, that's happening in your class? Dana Pelzman 52:48 It really depends. So I normally set up their critiques after the mastery check. So I'm, in generally speaking, let's say 80%, or more of the students are finished, they've met the mastery check in the ones who aren't, and actually helps them to see what the other kids have done. And then they're like, oh, wait, this doesn't look so hard. Or oh, wait, I'm actually on the right track. So I don't think it's realistic to have everyone at the same place to do the critique. But I also can't wait for everyone to be done to do the critique. Yeah, Zach Diamond 53:26 that's, that's true. I agree. Like I do a draft critique. And I do sort of pause the self pacing. And the assumption is, like, no one is done. Everyone's at different places in the project. But let's do a critique anyway. And like, maybe you can get some ideas from your peers. But they're like, the underlying assumption is that, yeah, like we're not supposed to, I'll be done. And then I also do a final critique, but I will hold on the lesson before the final critique, if not enough, kids are done, right? Because I want like that I want the feedback on the final product. And I want kids to be done. Like, I don't want to be like, sorry, you didn't do it in time. Like, yeah, there has to be a somewhat firm deadline at the end of the unit. Right. But like, I'll give them the time. And I do like the, the final critique when, like, mostly everyone's done, and they can be like, oh, like, I, we all learned the same skills. And you're, like, your version of the skill is so different from mine, but like, they can hear the skill happening in there. I guess. It's kind of like what we're talking about with the guidelines before, like, sharing, sharing is a really, really fun part of arts classes. I will say, Dana Pelzman 54:35 Yeah, you know, and I often tell my students that this is not a math class. So two plus two does not equal four in our class. Yes, I did sequel 20 176. It doesn't really matter. But if you all walked out with the same product, and I didn't, I did something wrong. Yeah, Zach Diamond 54:53 exactly. If there were a right way to make art and all art would be the same and it would be very boring. So boring. Yeah, yeah, amazing. Amazing. What a fantastic discussion. Maybe it's just because we both agreed. Maybe it's one of those like, echo chamber things where we're just validating each other the whole time. But Dana, this is amazing. It sounds like you're doing great honestly, like the virtual class sounds super structured, super well laid out. But, you know, what do you hope to see in the future? Like, where do you go from here? That sounds like you've got it worked out. So what's next? Dana Pelzman 55:27 Oh, I hope I don't have it worked out. I feel like I haven't I haven't figured it out for right now. I'm just gonna continue using MCP in my classroom, continue learning from these amazing podcasts, continue learning as the, you know, read various posts and threads in the in the Facebook group. And I think I also asked my students for feedback at the end of every marking period, or every time they switch, it's a semester long class or quarter long class or year long, you know, I have them do a reflection on me. And feedback on me. And I asked about elements of the MCP model and ask them how it worked for them? Because to be honest, I have no idea, right? I mean, I think it went well, but I don't know. So I asked about the tracker, I asked about the instructional videos, I asked about the self paced method, I asked about the pacing in general, because I just want to make sure that I'm meeting them where they are, and then I tweak from there. So I think you know, the future is just continuing to learn from them. Continue just to ask questions of them and of myself, and just be okay, that things might get messy sometimes and be okay with the fact that sometimes things might work out and surprised me. And I think that has really given me almost a new appreciation and a new set of skills that allow me to be patient. As an educator, I think it's easy to kind of go off the rails and get angry and frustrated, when things don't feel like they're going your way. But MCP has reached some new life and to me, and how I structure I structure my time with my students and how I help them learn. Zach Diamond 57:22 Well, I love that. I mean, that's a very common refrain. That's something that I've heard a lot. I mean, I edit every one of these podcasts. And I swear, I've heard that many, many times. It's, it's, it's great to hear. And I'll also say, like, in terms of like that sort of slow iteration, continuous learning, right? An example of that will be how today I heard from you about having students update their own trackers, I'm gonna try that, like it's gonna be. I always pick up like little nuggets from people that are on the podcast or from my mentees that I read, and like, that's gonna be something that I actually try. I'm gonna try it with one of my smaller classes first, just to see how it goes. And I, you might have just made a like a permanent change to my tracker. So thank you. Yeah, let me know how it goes for you. I will. Like I'm going to do it tomorrow. So tomorrow, of course, is in the past, because this episode is in publishing for a couple of weeks. But I guess we'll know by then by the time this comes out, listeners, somewhere in the world, actually somewhere in the DC area. will will will know if it worked for me, because it definitely sounds like it's working for you. Well, thank you so much, Dana. As I have already expressed, this has been an incredible episode. So thank you so much for joining me in talking about your your approach to modern classrooms into teaching art. Dana Pelzman 58:41 Thank you again for having me. This is really fun. And I feel really honored that he thought of me to ask me to share about my teaching with MCP, Zach Diamond 58:50 of course, and I'm glad we did because this again, I really enjoyed this one. listeners. Remember that you can always email us at podcast at modern classrooms.org. And you can find the show notes for this episode at podcast dot modern classrooms.org/ 185. We'll have this episode's recap and transcript uploaded to the modern classrooms blog on Friday. So be sure to check back there or check back in the show notes for this episode if you'd like to access those. Also, we're asking our listeners to leave a review if this podcast has been helpful in supporting you to create a blended self paced, mastery based learning environment. It does help folks find the podcast. So do please leave a review, if you would. Thank you all so much for listening. Have a great week, and we will be back next Sunday. Thank you so much for listening. You can find links to topics and tools we discussed in our show notes for this episode. And remember, you can learn more about our work at WWW dot modern classrooms.org. And you can learn the essentials of our model through our free course at Learn dot modern classrooms dot org. 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