Zach Diamond  0:00  
Welcome to the modern classrooms project podcast each week we bring you discussions with educators on how they use blended, self paced and mastery based learning to better serve their students. We believe teachers learn best from each other, so this is our way of lifting up the voices of leaders and innovators in our community. This is the modern classrooms project podcast.

Toni Rose Deanon  0:28  
Hello and welcome to the modern classrooms project podcast. My name is Toni Rose Deanon, they them pronouns, a designated type person here at MCP, and I am joined by an education expert, Best Selling Author, international speaker with 24 years of experience in education, and honestly, just like one of my favorite people, to have conversations with, Dr Catlin Tucker, welcome Catlin.

Catlin Tucker  0:49  
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Toni Rose Deanon  0:52  
Yeah, it's so exciting to be in this space with you. And thank you again, so much for saying yes to the podcast again, because we've had you on already. So it's this is such a nice partnership again, as we continue thinking about different ways to continue making learning that much more accessible and fun for students, right? And then keeping in mind also, of like, how to make it more inclusive so that students can relate, students can access, students can start enjoying their learning journeys again. So before we get started, I typically ask, what's bringing you joy? But I feel like I wanted to shift today and ask, what is expanding your brain lately?

Catlin Tucker  1:29  
Oh, my goodness. Well, a lot of the work that I'm doing with schools around redesigning instruction and facilitation, you know, I get a lot of like pushback from some teachers who are a little reticent to change practice, and so I've been doing all of this digging into kind of research around aspects of this work. And my favorite thing that is both bring me joy and kind of stretching my thinking and my learning is taking these really dense like articles and white papers and research papers, and throwing them into notebook LM, and having it generate these podcasts that I can listen to when I'm at the gym or I'm walking my dog. And so I feel like all of a sudden, with AI, I'm able to like, ingest and process and learn so much more, so that I can really speak authentically to like the why we do this? What are the benefits for teachers? So, yeah, that's a super nerdy answer, but it's true.

Toni Rose Deanon  2:27  
I think that's the whole point of this question. Is that we could nerd out because I didn't even think I love notebook. Lm, right. I love being able to upload PDFs on there and then breaking it down for a conversation to happen, and then I don't have to do that, that cognitive overload, cognitive thinking. So now I follow up question, what are some pushbacks like, what are the specific pushbacks that teachers are having when it comes to redesigning? I can think of some, but I'm curious about what you're hearing.

Catlin Tucker  2:53  
I mean, I think, if I'm taking my own educated guess, most of the pushback is fear based, right? Like, we get comfortable doing things the way we do them. We were all most of us were still kind of taught traditionally. So the idea of changing practice, I get a lot of like, what does the research say? Like, why should I do this? What are the benefits for kids? And so I was just working with a group of math teachers in a district, and I had done a lot of deep dive into, what does the research say about small groups and differentiation, and can I find things specific to like a middle school math audience, which is what I was working with, and it's just fascinating, because forever, you know, I would stumble on research that sounded interesting, but it's like 72 pages of the densest stuff ever, and I would read like the abstract and a little of the like introduction and maybe the discussion At the end, but now I can really get into the weeds and like, Oh, here's what it found, and here's kind of the effect size, and here's the population that was part of the study. And just, it's super fun.

Toni Rose Deanon  3:53  
Yeah, I love the I love the naysayers, like the push, like the folks push back, because in my head, you're paying attention honestly. So let's have this conversation, right? And it is based on a lot of fear, because, like you said, comfort is just really nice to have all the time. And so when I feel uncomfortable, that's when I start being up in arms about specific things. And you know, with the conversations that you're having with teachers all across, right? And you're thinking about, like, hey, or you're talking about how there's a need for research, there's a need for why. I'm also curious about mindsets, right? Like, because if you do provide them, if and when you do provide them the research and the purpose and, like, all the things about how and why these are beneficial for students, how does the mindset play a role in that?

Catlin Tucker  4:42  
Yeah, I think the research is more like a show me, show me somebody else has done this, and that there's, you know, some like proof in the pudding kind of situation, which I totally respect, although research is often lagging behind what practice is doing. And it's very like niche, right? There's like research studies of. First grade classrooms and a literacy program, and it's like, okay, then you have to draw these larger conclusions. So the research is one piece of the puzzle, but to your point, it's not going to convince anybody to change practice. It might make them a little more open to learning. But one of the exercises I do that I find really kind of powerful in PD is I'll ask teachers, I'll say, okay, most educators are either predominantly or exclusively using the whole group, teacher led, teacher pace. Lesson. From your perspective, I want you to have a conversation about, what are the perceived benefits of that model, like obviously, lots of us are using it all the time. Why are we using it? And then what are the challenges of being that teacher led or leading a teacher led whole group lesson, and then I have them kind of switch gears and do the same thing, but put themselves in a seat of a student, like from a student's perspective, what's beneficial about being part of a whole group, teacher led lesson, and what's challenging And what's fascinating is teachers generate the exact reasons why they see this as beneficial, and the top two reasons almost every single time are control right, control over how the content is presented, control over pacing, control over behaviors, and classroom management. And then it's two, ease of planning. So it's like, it's easier to plan, of course, one lesson for a diverse group of learners than to get super intentional and differentiate and like, explore different instructional models. And so when we drill down into then the challenges of like, we know the pacing doesn't work for kids. We know their rigor and complexity isn't a great fit for everybody. We're not really sure who's getting it and not. We're dealing with engagement issues now, all of a sudden, we've just like, opened up the lid on why would we consider adding an instructional model to our teaching tool belt? And I think that's one of the things I'm really clear about messaging, which is I think teachers, like, Don't come in here and tell me I'm doing it wrong and I'm like, I'm not here to tell you you're doing it wrong. What I'm here to do is help you build your teaching tool belt so that now we have options and choices as educators to use our professional judgment to fit the appropriate instructional model with a given lesson. So there's hopefully it's more effective, and we are truly reaching more learners.

Toni Rose Deanon  7:21  
And this is such a great segue to Catlin. I love it. It just kind of worked naturally, right? You wrote a book recently, a new book, because you've written a couple of books already, and it is called the station rotation model and UDL. And I'm so excited about this. I had a chance to read through it as well. And I was just like, oh my gosh, everything, all of this, this is also what I needed when I was in the classroom. So before we get started, right? Like, what was your thought process on writing this new book? And then also a refresher for our listeners on what is UDL,

Catlin Tucker  7:57  
okay, I Well, first of all, I cannot believe it's taken me this long to write this book. You know, I've written multiple books about blended learning. And station rotation model is one of many blended learning models, so I think I've always written about blended learning more generally, but this is by far and away the most popular blended learning model, because it can happen entirely in a classroom. It does this beautiful job of weaving together online and offline learning individual and collaborative tasks. It frees the teacher to facilitate differentiated direct instruction with small groups and differentiated modeling sessions and give students feedback while they're working on stuff in progress, that formative feedback. So there's all of these lovely benefits to station rotation, which I've been training teachers on for, I don't know, 18 years, but then in the last, really since covid, when my work aligned really deeply and kind of intersected really deeply with Dr Katie Novak's work around Universal Design for Learning, we really saw this opportunity to help teachers who are bought into Universal Design for Learning kind of operationalize it in a way that felt more manageable and sustainable, using these different blended learning models and strategies. So when I talk with educators who are like, Yeah, I've heard of Universal Design for Learning, like I've heard UDL thrown around a lot, but I'm not exactly sure what it actually means. I kind of keep it simple, which is, it's all about striving to make learning accessible, inclusive and equitable. So like universal design as a concept, actually has its roots in architecture and the idea that we want anybody to be able to access a building. And when we design learning, universally designed learning, the goal is that everyone can access the learning experience, right? And how are we making it accessible and inclusive and equitable?

Toni Rose Deanon  9:54  
And I think one of the things that I really appreciated too, as I started reading your book, right? You start out with. With an anecdote and a story, really, to humanize who you are as as an educator. And that was something that I was looking forward to every single chapter, because I was like, Oh man, how is she going to tie this in to the real world? And I thought, what a beautiful way to do that, so that the readers can see this is not something that just happens in the classroom. This is something actually, that we as adults, as human beings, want and crave in the spaces that we are in, right? And so let's talk about this basic versus intentional design that you talk about in the beginning, which I was like, Yo, I love this so much. I've been joining or showing up for different community events, and then quickly realizing, Oh, this was a basic design. They just wanted a space to bring everyone in. And me, as a neurodivergent, hated it because I was like, there's no structure, there's no intentionality behind it. This is really frustrating. I want to make friends, but it's really hard for like, it was just all of these things that came up for me. And so this basic versus intentional design that you talk about in the beginning, how, how does that play a role in our daily lives? And then also, like, how can we push our teachers to also do more than just a basic design of lessons?

Catlin Tucker  11:16  
Yeah, this is such a, like, dense kind of question, I think so I have to credit my work with Dr Novak at like, helping me understand the importance of these anecdotes and these like stories. Because what's so interesting is, when I used to publish with like Corwin or, you know, solution tree, it was all very like, keep it research based, and there's no personal stories in there. But it's so funny, because when teachers talk about my books the last four or five that use this similar approach, it's the stories that they're actually connecting to to like, retain what they're learning. So I'm thrilled that you enjoyed them. That's awesome. But I think that for me, the difference between like, basic and intentional design when it comes to station rotation is, you know, I've gone into classrooms where teachers are like, oh, yeah, I'm doing station rotation, and I'm observing what's happening. And really what I'm seeing in some of those early stages of implementation are the teacher led station is, you know, they're working with small groups, but there's no observable differentiation happening. I can't tell how they're adjusting and tailoring the experience for different groups of learners who might have different needs or preferences or language proficiencies. Instead, it almost feels like they're kind of replicating the same instruction for all groups, at which point I'm like, well, then you should have just done it whole group, right? You're this isn't a great use of your time to just repeat yourself three times. It should feel like a uniquely different experience for each group of learners we're working with. The online station is often a really isolating task where students are being asked like, hey, go on this program and do practice and review, or go on this adaptive software, or watch this video, and there's this whole like opportunity missed to use technology and the online learning to really connect learners to support conversations and creative problem solving and get them collaborating. And then the offline station is worksheets, just like bunch bunch, a bunch of worksheets. And so for me, that's kind of leaving out the high level design. So in the book, I kind of identify three pillars of high quality design. The first is data informed. So how are we collecting and using data strategically to one, identify students needs, and also to be responsive to those needs, right? So identify where are they starting in their individual learning journeys, and then how much progress are they making, and what might they need from us to continue progressing toward firm, standard line goals the online station, like using adaptive software and videos, those are great, but like, I also want to think bigger about that station, and how are we really targeting, like the 4c of 21st Century Learning? How are we connecting kids and engaging them around shared tasks with technology and the offline station? I really kind of push them the idea that, like this is an opportunity for us to lean into that social kind of tactile, experiential learning. And so in that intentional design, we're targeting data informed kind of design. We're really drilling down into differentiation at that teacher led station, so kids are getting what they need, and teachers feel more successful meeting those needs. And then the third is student agency and meaningful choice. Like, where are we building in these moments where kids get to make a decision and really creating those more flexible pathways? And if you think about it from a teacher perspective, like, we sit through a lot of staff meetings, we sit through a lot of professional development. That isn't very it's not intentionally designed. It's like you're all going to get. Same thing, you're going to spend a lot of time sitting there and listening and sitting and getting where there have been moments where, when you've been in a staff meeting, where, or a PD that's really intentionally designed, like it's there to meet your specific needs. Not everybody's getting the same thing, because a art teacher and a math teacher and a special education teacher. They have different pain points. They have different needs. When you get your needs met in an intentionally designed, professional learning scenario, you can absolutely feel the difference because you're more engaged, you're finding it more valuable and rewarding. So yeah, long answer to the question,

Toni Rose Deanon  15:41  
and I think it ties back into what you were saying with the ease of planning right basic design, it is easy to plan for a basic design of anything that we're creating. And so when we start thinking about what is our intentionality behind this, and then how do we then create different entry points for people to come in and share their expertise, to share their experiences, as opposed to, again, like you said, just a basic, basic design, right? And you know, and listeners like the 4c that Catlin was talking about are the critical thinking, communication, collaboration and creativity that you mentioned throughout your book as well. And I love that part too. Of just those are the four skills that are so difficult to teach. And I know time and time again too, I hear like, oh, there's no time for that. How am I supposed to do that? Right? And it's like, oh, when we embed it into the design that we create for learning experiences for our students, then it's not like another thing, right? We provide opportunities for for our students to actually practice those skills, because, more than ever we need, we need those skills.

Catlin Tucker  16:52  
We absolutely do. Oh my gosh. I think all of those really human skills are what are going to be the things that are most valuable as we move into a future that is so, you know, saturated with AI,

Toni Rose Deanon  17:05  
yeah, and, you know, and bringing it back to the stories that you started every chapter with, right? Because I think, again, as humans, we love and crave connections, and those stories, I think, are the best ways, like you said, for something to resonate with people. Because, you know, I just chuckled at one of your stories about Disney World, I think, with your sister. And just like, there's a there's a good amount of age ranges and interest, right? And then, like, planning something out where everyone is doing all the things, just like, was not a thing at all. And so it's like, oh, we do think about these things outside of the classroom, outside of the school, in our everyday lives, to make it a little bit easier, not just for me, but also for everyone else involved in that experience. So I just, I don't know. I just felt like, oh my gosh, I know Catlin a little bit more.

Catlin Tucker  17:59  
It's so cool. You can hear how I designed a Disneyland trip so toddlers, teenagers and old people could have a good time.

Toni Rose Deanon  18:07  
Yeah, yeah. And that's the thing, right? Like, we don't. That's something that we don't have enough conversations about. It's just kind of like, Oh, we're all gonna go here, and this is all this. These are all the things that we're gonna do together when that's not really it. So that's, that's, that's that whole concept of the basic versus intentional design, not just for lessons, but also for real life. You know, you talked about the the traditional learning centers a little bit. You didn't use those words. You just said, like, hey, you know, I've walked into some classrooms and this is how it was looking, where the teacher was saying the lesson three times. And I've also witnessed that when I was doing some class classroom walkthroughs, and I was like, Yo, aren't you? Aren't you exhausted? Like, yeah. Also, Aren't you bored of saying the same thing, yeah? Or you're

Catlin Tucker  18:52  
in that moment and you're like, Wait, did I already say it for this group? Like, I can't even remember where I'm at because I've said it so many times, right?

Toni Rose Deanon  18:59  
And then to think about also, if you have four classes and three different stations, that's 12 times, so you're repeating yourself. And so again, that's just not like you said a great use of time for yourself and and the students as well. And I also have to say that I was also that person who did that traditional learning centers, right? So like I was the one who was repeating myself 315 times because I didn't know any better. And then when you talked about the offline part where the worksheets, this is, again, another thing that I also did. It was busy work. It was busy work. It was just like, Okay, this like, just one more thing that the kids have to do, because there was really nothing else that I wanted them to do. And so it was busy work. And then I not only gave my students busy work, I also gave myself busy work, because then now I have to look through these things and be like, Well, did they get it? Did they not get it? And then I would get upset because they didn't get it. And so it was like, what are those things where I'm like, okay, yeah, there's definitely a. Need to be intentional so that we're not wasting time. 

Catlin Tucker  20:02  
Yeah, and it's not to say that you won't use a worksheet for practice and review, but even in the book, I talk about, okay, so if it's practice and review, setting the stage for something we are going to assess at a later date, then why are we the ones doing the critical thinking and like, assessing it for accuracy, right? This is something we can set students up to do in a station, which is like, check correct, capture your questions, like, look at your own work critically. Think about where you're at in your skill set. So yeah, there is just this higher level of intentionality needed all across the board. And so often when teachers are using centers, it's like the tasks are uniform, right? Often, teachers aren't even necessarily leading a station. They're kind of like moseying about the room, answering questions, supporting students as they work. And so when we talk about station rotation model, the whole goal of blending online like active, engaged online learning with active, engaged, offline learning with this model is to shift more control to students. So do they have more control over the pace at which they navigate tasks? Do they have more control over the path of their learning? And if the answer is no, and there's no evidence of differentiation, you know, then we're not talking about the station rotation model,

Toni Rose Deanon  21:23  
yeah, we're just creating just more work for everybody.

Catlin Tucker  21:29  
And centers, right? Centers that students go to to engage in tasks,

Toni Rose Deanon  21:33  
I guess exactly, not learning tasks, like you said. And, and you know something that when I first started reading your book, Catlin, this is gonna make you chuckle. I was like, Well, how do I know if I'm doing it correctly? And then the first chapter, of course, ends with reflection questions. And I'm like, Oh, there you go. And so you know, thinking about UDL, thinking about shifting to more student led, thinking about making learning more active than anything, right? Something that I really appreciate about this book is that you again, there's a lot of intentionality behind it, and lots of entry points. So for example, and at the end of each chapter you have a summary, and then at the end of the chapter you also have reflection questions, and then that's not it, right? The one thing that I also really love is like the action, like, the next steps, and it's actionable. It is something that, like, you really provided some got, like, not some, a lot of guidance and to how we could implement whatever it is that you were just talking about in that chapter. Or at least, like, how can we start shifting our mindsets, and then, how do we make this into bite, sizeable things that we could do in the classroom. So I really, really appreciated that part too. Because, like you said, I've also read a lot of books, teacher books, and I'd be like, but how, if anything, I would just be like, but how you do this? And so you did a really great job of capturing, like, the key points, having those reflection questions. And then, as well as here's step by step of how to do this, and it's and like you said, it's not telling the teacher that what they're doing is wrong. It's like, what do you have already? And then here are the ways that you could do it, which I absolutely, absolutely love. So thank you for that.

Catlin Tucker  23:16  
Yay. Oh my gosh, it's the teacher in me, you know, like, I if you don't act on it, you probably aren't going to implement if you don't act on your learning, you're unlikely to implement it in the classroom. And obviously, what I want teachers to do is to try this stuff with students and feel the impact.

Toni Rose Deanon  23:33  
Yes, thank you for that. Now, another thing that I was reading through, and I was like, Oh, I'm feeling a lot of emotions about this. For the online station you know you talk about, you mentioned that watching instructional videos could still be a passive way of learning, unless we create active learning that goes along with that. So now mind you, in modern classroom, right? We're talking about instructional videos. We're always telling our teachers, make those instructional videos, create them so your students can watch them anywhere, anytime. And I think I have not, and I know we also talk about guided notes, you know, and students are watching those videos, have guided notes or have something. So let's and you mentioned a couple of those strategies in your book, but I wanted to give. I wanted to ask, like, what are specific strategies that teachers can use to make sure that they're still active learning happening when they're watching instructional videos? Because it can't just be sit there and watch it.

Catlin Tucker  24:31  
No, well, and to be like, really clear when I'm working with teachers, when I am a big advocate for instructional videos. In fact, I know a lot of teachers are like, well, when would I use station rotation versus whole group? And for me, the conversation, actually, when I was teaching became, when do I use video? Because I'm going to say the same thing the same way to everybody, and I'm probably going to have to repeat it like 100 times this year. And then what are those things? Things, those concepts, those skills, those processes that are more nuanced. They're more complex. Kids classically struggle with them. Those I want to pull into small group, differentiated direct instruction, tier one instruction, so not like, hey, I'll do it whole group, and then I'll clean up the hot mess that is left over in small groups, in a seat, in a station rotation, because now we've just spent double the amount of time on this topic. Instead, say it the same way for everybody, great capturing a video. This is complex, nuanced. Kids struggle with it, pull it into small groups and differentiate first pass instruction. Because one of the things that I do cite a lot in my my my trainings is that I was reading research published in 2024 that was like all students deserve access to high quality tier one instruction and differentiation in small groups is considered best practice for tier one. And so for me, it's getting out of that mindset that small groups is somehow relegated to tier two support, or tier two or tier three intervention, but it can actually be a strategy to really elevate tier one instruction at times. And so if we're going to use video, which I'm a huge proponent of, the pushback I get from teachers is, well, what if kids don't really watch it? What if they don't understand it? What is it? All the what ifs right? And again, that's all our fears about offloading some transfer of information to video. So my message to teachers is, if you have those fears, if students aren't learning effectively from the videos, they're not engaging with them in the ways that you want, then how do we build engagement? Like, let's get proactive. Let's not decide not to use it because we're scared kids won't do whatever. Let's instead build a structure like, maybe we have a group of learners doing reciprocal teaching with a video right where they each have a role, and one is the summarizer and the predictor and the clarifier and the questioner, and they pause every two minutes in the video to like, have a chat about what's happening in the video. What are they learning? Using those roles as a guide, because we know from John Hattie's work around visible learning that is a high impact strategy that can help them unpack, make meaning together when watching video content, we'll also do things like, you know, maybe we give students a would you rather choice? Because kids are different. Variability is real. And so if I'm having them watch video instruction that's wrapped in an EdPuzzle, maybe the choice is, do you want to self pace through this EdPuzzle on your own and answer the questions like typing the responses into EdPuzzle, or do you want to find a partner? And every time Ed puzzle pauses for you know, to present a question, you you have a conversation. You have a chat with your your peers, so that instead of the self paced on your own answering the questions, it's conversation based. And so it's such a simple little choice, and yeah, you're not going to get the perfect answers from the folks having the conversation, but maybe the conversation and the kids who really enjoy verbal processing, that's going to be much more valuable than anything those kids would have put into EdPuzzle in response to those questions. So for me, it's just about what are the strategies that we can lean on? How do we remove barriers? Because for some students, a video or listening to a podcast is going to be much more accessible than listening to the teacher talking at the front of the room. 

Toni Rose Deanon  28:27  
Yeah, and thank you for that. But because I think in my head, I was just like, oh, man, I never even considered that watching a video could be passive learning, right? Because I know for me, I'm always talking about, oh, we want to make active learners. We want to create active learners. We want to create active learners, and if we're not careful, right? If we're not careful, then we could potentially continue that cycle of creating passive learners when we're not intentional behind the instructional videos that we provide for our students, and also not providing opportunities for students to talk about the things that they're watching, right? And so that's something to keep in mind, too, because I know, oh man, Catlin, I am such an opponent. I am so against guided notes. And I know, like, MCP is gonna frown on me for saying that. And I only say that because, again, a lot of the times there's no intention behind that guided notes, except for students to write it down. So it's not like, what are students using? Why are they doing? Why are they taking notes, right? Are they going to refer back to these guided notes? Are you going to provide opportunities for students to go back to the guided notes, right? Because a lot of the times I saw that it was also just busy work. And I think it was one of my students who was learning English. She was one who made me kind of have a bigger like question about guided notes, because, again, she's learning English. And so a six minute video. Ago with guided notes took her 35 minutes because she was just writing things down. She wasn't getting anything. She was just writing things down. And in her head, she thought, Oh, I'm mastering it, because I'm writing things down, and that's not the case at all. And so I saw it as a barrier. And so now thinking about active like or thinking about strategies to create active learners. It is that reflection piece afterwards, the processing piece afterwards. Let's talk about what you just read list, or what you just listened to and watched, as opposed to the guided notes part. Do you like? Do you have a thing? Yeah. Can you help me shift my brain not be so against guided notes?

Catlin Tucker  30:40  
Well, I don't think all guided note experiences are created equal. That's what I will say Toni Rose, like there are guided I've seen guided notes at work that are simply, are you listening to the video so you can fill in this word or phrase, and to me, that feels more like a strategy to just keep your attention so that you are copying down the right things in the right place. For me, I think there's guided notes that could be more valuable where it's asking or challenging students to, you know, maybe a concept is unpacked in the video and the student is asked to kind of rephrase that concept or explain it to a younger student in their own words. Or, Hey, this is the concept we just covered in the video. Can you create an analogy to something else that you're familiar with that makes this that kind of is similar but different, and you can explain why you're connecting these two to me now we're pushing the brain to make these connections. Because when we introduce new information in any form, but like in a video or mini lesson or small group session, when we give students a new piece of information, they have to, kind of like metaphorically, Velcro it to something in their existing knowledge framework. And so if the guided notes aren't helping them to make those connections and to create those bridges of understanding, I don't know how successful they're going to be. I would also say that guided notes, if they're done well, would actually probably work well for somebody like me. I'm very sequential. I like, you know, I like taking notes, but I have even worked with graduate students where, where. That's not how they make sense of things they want to create a concept map or a flow chart or draw sketch notes. And so again, when we talk about Universal Design for Learning and flexible pathways and meaningful choice, it's like maybe we put together a guided note template that isn't asking about every single detail in the video, it's asking some of these bigger questions about interpreting and making analogies and connections, and then we give like a would you rather option, like you can do this, or you can create a sketch note that captures the big ideas, and you're thinking about them visually and with Text, right? So I think one of the biggest challenges in education is that it's so much easier for us as teachers to just say, everybody has to do it this way. But that's not what's best for kids, and this creates this really uncomfortable tension, because we as educators are in this work to, you know, light fires under kids and get them excited about learning, and then we're just telling them exactly how to do things, and not giving them the opportunity to say, actually, that doesn't speak to a preference or an interest or a strength of mine, it's going to create a barrier. So, yeah, that's, it's it's tough.

Toni Rose Deanon  33:39  
Okay, you're expanding my brain today. So I appreciate that. I appreciate the reminder that not all guided notes are created equal, right? Because you're right. I guess I'm just so stuck on the fill in the blanks. And I just hate those, like those. I don't like those either worst. And because even me as a student, I would write that down and not tell you what I learned. I know that I had to write that word down. And so this concept that you're saying of, like, hey, connect it with something that they already know, something that they're already passionate about, something that, like, you know. And it's also a great way to get to know your students as well, right? If the notes are made in a way where they are connecting those things in their real life, and in this concept of, would you rather too? Because I know sometimes, we always talk about, not sometimes, but I know at UDL there's options, we want to provide options. There's the options and there's the student choice, right? There's all of that for UDL as well. And so when we think about options, y'all two, two options, that's That's it. Y'all don't need to do 15.

Catlin Tucker  34:39  
No, actually, the research says that the sweet spot is two to four, and actually anything over six can lead to kind of like choice paralysis. So yeah, would you rather just two meaningful options? And I think one of the things that was so wonderful about the revision that cast did Latin not this summer, the last summer was around co creation, so it's. Like, maybe we give them a would you rather? And we say, or you can propose your own pathway and just have it be, you know, propose it to me, and I can say, I can green light it. Or we can, kind of like, workshop it, and then you can do it. But it's all of a sudden, it's not all about the teacher whipping up all the options and choices. We can actually engage our students in this process as well.

Toni Rose Deanon  35:20  
And that's, and that's shifting again, to more student centered, right, student led, and then also respecting their own stories and providing that space for them to bring those stories in so that they can say, oh, I can show you mastery if I can do A, B, C, D, because this is what I'm interested in. And so I really appreciate that. Oh, this is, this is such great, great conversation. I love talking to you so much. So going back to like, the station rotation model, right? Like again, we're releasing control. We are being more intentional. We are listening to students and watching and observing them. One of the things that I appreciate about the data informed cycle that you mentioned is that there's a lot of observation that's happening. So it's not just the students are filling out a reflection form or you're just, you know, you or the assessments, not necessarily just the assessments, not the formative or the summative, but it's also the teacher seeing and paying attention and observing like, how how is this feeling in the classroom? How are my students engaging with the stuff that you know that we're learning about? How are students participating all of that good stuff? So I really, I really loved highlighting that part too, of just the fact that observation is data. Y'all like, let's pay attention to how this is emotions are data. It doesn't necessarily have to be tied to a standardized test or a quiz test or anything like that. And so that was like another question of like, well, what? What does that look like, exactly? And then you provide a rubric. So it was, I was coming up with questions Catlin as I was reading, and then I turned the page, and I'm like, oh, there it is hilarious. It's great that I think you were just like, again, thinking about educators right in your head, of like, okay, I'm going to say this thing, and then now, here's the thing to continue your learning, right? So I really appreciated that. So thank you for that. And how did, how did you come across? Like, the data informed cycle. How did you create that and and do all of those things? Because I think again, teachers struggle with data, right? Like, we don't really know what to do with data.

Catlin Tucker  37:31  
Well, I, if I'm being super honest, the conversations when I was teaching were so many of the administrative conversations about data in like staff meetings was about the like, big data being collected by the standardized exams that, like the whole state of California had to take, and it just wasn't data that, like I was all that interested in. I want to collect data specific to my students in a specific moment of time to understand who they are, what they need, what's going to work for them. And so the data informed design cycle that I created really starts with like pre assessment. So we cannot, I we cannot actually design with a high level of intentionality if we don't know where our little kiddos are starting, right? Because, you know, learning is not like lining up for a race. They're all over the place, right? Some are way far behind the start line, and so if we assume they're in a certain location, we lose them on lesson one, because they actually need differentiated entry points into the learning pathway. They're going to need some pre teaching of vocabulary. They're going to need some building background in order to even get to the on ramp to the learning pathway, then there are kids who are already down the learning pathway, like they know about certain concepts. They already have some skills in their their skill set. And so if we start them all the way back at the beginning, then we lose them because they're bored and they're like, already know this, and they disengage. And so pre assessment, before we embark on kind of designing a unit, or fine tuning a unit that we have, or a sequence of lessons, is all about getting curious about where our students are starting in their individual learning journeys. So we can say, Oh, the data is showing me, I have eight kids in this class who need some language support before we can start this, who need to understand a foundational concept they don't currently understand. They need some building background. And while I'm working with them, I'm clearly going to need something to keep these other kiddos engaged, who can already do some of these things. So maybe that's reciprocal teaching with a high interest, podcast or a video, or maybe it's like an online inquiry kind of activity where they're researching a high interest question, or maybe it's creating a model or an analogy they can share with a classmate who might benefit from it. So I want to start on day one, really trying, striving to meet those needs, but as much as I try to universally design and remove. Barriers and provide meaningful choices. Kids are going to make progress at different rates, right? We know that as like, the modern classroom project like, that's a huge part of it. Like, they're in different places. They pace differently, they're they need different levels of rigor and complexity, and so some will shoot way out in advance, and they'll make incredible strides. And they'll need more challenge to stay engaged, not more work, more challenge and stimulation to stay engaged. And then there are some kiddos who are going to stagnate, they're going to stall, and they're going to need much more of our teacher, time and energy, input and support and scaffolds. And the only way we know how much progress they are individually making as they start on that learning pathway is the formative assessment. And to your point, that can be observational. At my teacher led station, what am I noticing? What are the misconceptions? Where are the gaps? Where are the bumps they're hitting? What are the really strong strategies they're using? Or if I'm watching a group working together, what am I noticing about who's clearly understanding concepts or reading and who's struggling? It's also those check for understandings like the exit tickets and the non graded quizzes and the quick writes and the little things that we do to try to measure like how successful has a lesson or a learning experience been, so that we can continue to differentiate, we can continue to personalize, so that by the time they get up to that summative assessment at the end of the unit, we've really done everything within our ability to support all of them at reaching those kind of firm, standard, aligned goals.

Toni Rose Deanon  41:29  
Yes to all of that. I Yes, yep, that's it. I got nothing to add except like, yeah, that it's so because I was definitely that teacher that really struggled with data, and I didn't know how to use it, I didn't know how to read it, I didn't know what to do with it. I was never taught that, so I just, I was always avoiding data, but really was pushed into it, because that was a lot of the conversations, especially teaching ELA with it being standardized, right? So I love your I love that you said, also, for students who are more advanced, more challenge, not necessarily more work, right? The pre assessment is so important, especially when it comes to getting to know our students. And the way that you said, also, like getting curious, right? Like, let's not judge, let's not get you know, upset or disappointed or anything. It's just getting curious like, Okay, so these are the facts. I'm not going to attach any kind of emotions to it. And then here are the strategies that we could do together to make sure that our students, like you said, have differentiated entry points. And so I thank you. Thank you for that. And I know seeing that for me, alleviated a lot of stress, and I'm not even the classroom. I'm like, Oh, this makes a lot of sense, because it's not just numbers, it's also feelings. I'm a feelings type of person. I I like knowing what the energy is in the spaces that I'm in, so that I can move in that in that sense, right? Making sure that folks are comfortable, making sure that folks are understanding, and they do feel they do feel supported. So so thank you for that. Now, one of the chapters that I absolutely love, and you're probably going to chuckle, is chapter 11, because it aligns so well with our model here at MCP. You talked about like the free flow student paced the must do versus the may do, and then the optional skill stations as well. And so when you wrote this because it is about creative like alternate ways of the station rotation model, what was like the one key takeaway that you wanted the readers to get out of this chapter,

Catlin Tucker  43:36  
there is no end point in learning period, right? So there's a traditional teacher time, station rotation, and that's kind of the one we start with, so that we can get our feet under us and feel confident designing in this way, because it's different. But there are all these variations that I stumbled onto just as an educator, because one instructional approach does not work for every scenario, period, whether that's the whole group, teacher led, whether it's station rotation, right? So there were times when, you know, there's a big fear. And you guys, I'm sure, hear this all the time, because I work with MCP, MCP people, and I hear from them, which is, yeah, but like, what if kids pace much more quickly than other kids. Like, what do you do? And that same in station rotation, they're like, Well, what if kids get done with a task far quicker than the other members of their station? I'm like, so they get done quicker, right? Like, that's the benefit is that at these stations that aren't teacher led, they can move at a pace that hopefully works better for them, but that's really scary for teachers. And so there's all these things that we can do. You know, you can have like a brain break section of your classroom with, like, adult coloring book pages and Sudoku and puzzles and whatever you want. You can have a may do or a next steps, you know, may do list or next steps protocol. But I also started to feel like there were times when I would use my. Or LED station for feedback. Kids were working on a performance task or a project or writing piece in progress, and so I was dedicating that time to giving focused, actual formative feedback as they worked. And I realized I don't need to do a teacher timed rotation, so if I'm going to give feedback, kids all start at a station, but when they are done with the task, they just get up and go to the next station. And if they're at my teacher led, it's kind of like a drop in. You drop in, once you get your feedback and you act on it, then you can go the next station. And so it created this kind of idea around the free flow student paced rotation. And I it's funny because I did it in a first grade classroom after I tried it in mine, and it was just incredible. First graders, like, rocked the free flow. Student paced rotation. And then sometimes I'll work with secondary teachers and they're like, I don't think my kids can do that. I'm like, well, first graders can do it, so I think your ninth graders can do it. And then the optional skill station was really about like, hey, if students are working self pacing through a lesson. Maybe it's a playlist, maybe it's a choice board, whatever, or a learning sequence like they might have set up in modern classroom project, then pulling kids for these kind of small group differentiated experiences, or letting them opt into them, like, Hey, today I'm going to run three different skill stations, and in this window of time, I'm going to focus on this and this and this, and then kids can drop in and participate in whatever skill station they feel would really benefit from, or they would benefit from. And so it was just all these interesting plays on this traditional approach. But it was like, hey, there's no end to like the variations and the cool stuff we can do with this instructional model. So just embrace being that lead learner in your classroom and know that once you have the basic teacher timed rotation, there's all these other cool places you can go with it.

Toni Rose Deanon  46:53  
Yeah, it was, it was such a nice reminder to be creative, right? Again, it's like one of those C's that you talked about, let's, let's bring in creativity here, right? So if it's like, Hey, you got this teacher led. Now create, you know, be creative with it. Do all the things. Have fun with it. See what works, see what doesn't work. And so I just really love that. That's how you kind of ended this the book as well, of just like, hey, here are all the things that you could do. And here's an here's other ways to bring in more joy, not just for you, but also for your students, which I absolutely love. And you know, again, another thing about your book, too, Catlin, is that you had myths. Like you talked about the misconceptions that people are coming in with the station rotation model and like just a different different stations, right? You also talked about or provided examples, like you were literally like, Hey, here's a way to do it in an elementary school, and then elementary class, and then here's also a schedule. Because you were talking about how some teachers would say, Oh, this is not going to work for like a 45 minute class, right? And I think what I really love saying about MCP, and that you could probably say with the with the station rotation as well as, like, there's no one right way to do it, right? There's multiple ways, depending on your class time, your class size, depending on your ability as an educator, as well as your students abilities. Like, there's so many different ways to do it now, there are wrong ways to do it. I'm not saying that there are no wrong ways, but there are so many right ways to do

Catlin Tucker  48:26  
it as well. Yes, and embracing that flexibility is what's key. I think so often. I think the question that you asked at the very beginning of our conversation is like, Am I doing this right? And I get that question in different forms from educators all the time, like, is this right? And I'm like, It's not that there's right or wrong. There's like, all of these different ways to go about some of this stuff. And like, getting out of that, like, black and white, like, it has to be one way or the other, I think, is really important.

Toni Rose Deanon  48:53  
Yeah. And like you said, it is a challenge, because if we've been doing, what if we've been teaching the same way for many years, and then you tell me that I have to shift like I need, I need it to be black and white to make sense in my head, sometimes, right? And then also understanding that like, No, you have options. It's only like, let's bring in your strengths and your skill sets and the creating this for you and your students. So I love that. And so now I'm really curious, what was your favorite chapter from this book, and why?

Catlin Tucker  49:25  
Ooh, that's a really, I think probably the teacher led station, and it's more because one for for me as an educator, that's where the magic happens, like I for everybody listening. I started my career as that total traditional teacher. I wrote the agenda on the front of the board. I marched my class through it. We did. I mean, it was always a collection of learning activities, like I didn't talk at them all period. But I was very traditional and so and I almost quit, was quit this job at about year five, because I was like, This is not what I thought I was signing up for. I don't feel like my kids want to be here. I don't feel like I'm being effective. And I remember leading those whole group lessons and seeing kids who needed more, right? They had been absent for two weeks. They were struggling with something. And in my mind, it was like, Can you come in at lunch? Can you stay at break? Do you have to race out after school? Like, when can I meet your specific needs as a learner. And then when I started exploring station rotation model, because I think some people think I developed this model, I did not. I just talk about it a lot, it was like the first time when I was like, Oh my gosh, in this class of 32 kids, I can work with six to eight students and really understand where they're at, what they need, give them personal like time and attention. And it was so exciting. And like kids who never talked in the whole group setting were asking questions. I was seeing the little light bulbs go off, little aha moments. And so it was magical. That teacher led station for me was so exciting. And so what I love about that chapter is just presenting a variety of different what I kind of think of as structures for designing that time, so that teachers can differentiate for skill level groups, but also for mixed skill level groups. Because another thing I don't want to happen is for teachers to be like, Oh, I use station rotation, and I always put kids in skill and ability level groups. It's like, I get that makes it easier for us to differentiate, but I really worry about what that does to a learner's sense of confidence in their ability. And there are ways to differentiate for mixed skill level groups, but you have to have a clear structure guiding that time. And I think in that chapter there are, like, four or five instructional structures and a feedback structure that teachers can lean on to say, how do I want to use this time, and how am I going to organize it, and how might I meet skill and mixed skill level needs in this moment? And for me, I just really, I love all of that. So I think that was probably my favorite chapter.

Toni Rose Deanon  52:01  
That was such a good chapter, too, because we, we also, you also mentioned, like, the small groups, and how important it is for small groups. And then here all the barriers of why we, you know, why we're doing whole group versus, like, small groups and so And like you said, it really does create that touch points with students, that sometimes we don't get those touch points because we're so busy with the whole group, right? And so again, it's that whole thing of making kids feel seen, feel valued, feel supported, creating that learning environment where students can be brave and can be can feel safe, ish, right? Whatever that could look like for them. And so, oh my gosh, thank you. This has been a great conversation. Highly recommend you all grab this book. It is, again called the station rotation model and UDL. Thank you so much for finally writing a book about it. Because I know that you talked about this over and over and over again, and so to find to have a book all about it, I think again, this is one of, like my favorite books, so thank you for for creating and putting it together. Yeah, and another thing too, that I wanted to say to listeners, we're actually going to do a book club, not on this book, but one of your books, as well as the student the shift to student led. And so I'm really excited about doing that this upcoming semester, this upcoming October. And so, because there's been a lot of talk about this book as well, so I'm like, Okay, well, then you know what? This is gonna be the second book that we do by Catlin. We'll do the third one next year, about the station rotation model, like it's the vibe, because, again, our work aligns so well together. So it's just, it's really great. So okay, well, how can listeners connect with you if they want to ask and learn more.

Catlin Tucker  53:43  
Yeah, well, Catlin tucker.com is like my one stop shop. If you want to follow my blog. I blog almost every week and share lots of resources and strategies. My books are there, my courses are there, and I can actually Toni Rose send a link for anybody who's excited to do maybe a book study of station rotation and UDL on their campus with leadership or whatever, or PLC, I just released a free study guide to go with the book that just kind of builds even more engagement around it. So I'll make sure you guys have that link so you can share it in the show notes if you want.

Toni Rose Deanon  54:14  
Yes, I'm so excited about that. I'm so excited about it. And so again, just thank you so much. This has been always such a joyful space when I'm with you. So thank you for expanding my brain and sharing, sharing your brain honestly. So thank you again.

Catlin Tucker  54:28  
Thank you for having me. Yeah, it's always a pleasure to chat.

Toni Rose Deanon  54:32  
Yay. Listeners, remember, you can always email us at podcast at modern classrooms.org and you can find the show notes for this episode at podcast dot modern classrooms.org, we'll have this episode's video uploaded on modern classrooms YouTube channel and transcript uploaded by Friday, so be sure to check back to access those. Also, we are asking our listeners to leave a review if this podcast has been helpful in supporting you to create a human centered learning environment through a blended, self paced and mastery based model. It does. Help other folks find it. Thank you all for listening. Have a great week, and we'll be back next Sunday.

Zach Diamond  55:10  
Thank you so much for listening. You can find links to topics and tools we discussed in our show notes for this episode, and remember, you can learn more about our work at www.modernclassrooms.org and you can learn the essentials of our model through our free course at learn.modernclassrooms.org you can follow us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram @modernclassproj, that's P, R, O, J, we are so appreciative of all you do for students and schools. Have a great week, and we'll be back next Sunday with another episode of the modern classrooms project podcast. You.

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