Zach Diamond  0:03  
welcome to the modern classrooms project podcast. Each week we bring you discussions with educators on how they use blended, self paced and mastery based learning to better serve their students. We believe teachers learn best from each other, so this is our way of lifting up the voices of leaders and innovators in our community. This is the modern classrooms project podcast.

Toni Rose Deanon  0:29  
Hello and welcome to the modern classrooms project podcast. My name is Toni Rose Deanon, they them pronouns, a designated hype person here at MCP, and I am joined by an accomplished educator, author and advocate dedicated to transforming education through innovative practices. Starr Sackstein welcome. Starr,

Starr Sackstein  0:48  
Thanks Toni. I'm so excited to talk with you today. 

Toni Rose Deanon  0:52  
Oh, it's for me. I was just telling you this earlier, right? Like I'm fan girling. I'm huge fan of your work because I don't know I crossed paths with you, not even in person, not even virtually, just the work that you've done, and about 10 years ago, I believe, or maybe more, but to be in the space having live conversation with you is so exciting. So thank you so much for saying yes to the podcast. And before we get started, what is bringing you joy currently? 

Starr Sackstein  1:21  
Um, I would say what I love most is still watching teachers get it. But my son's home for spring break, so what's bringing me joy right now is the fact that I have my baby at home.

Toni Rose Deanon  1:36  
Oh, that's so great. And I know it's spring break for a lot of folks right now. So I love that people are able to rest, rejuvenate, be around people that they love. And so thank you for sharing that. Okay, Starr, so I know a little bit about you or a lot about you now that we've had the conversation prior to this recording, and I must say, I feel like you are my people, and I'm so excited that we got to connect, because when I come to Florida, I will come visit tell us more about who you are and how you started your education journey. 

Starr Sackstein  2:05  
Sure, so I'll start now and kind of rewind right now. I am currently working as the Massachusetts State Coordinator for educators rising, which works with the parent company as PDK, and basically what our whole mission is about, is growing teachers young in CTE pathways, and really trying to work hard to make sure that we have better representation in the teacher roles, so that the teachers look like the students who are sitting with them and really encouraging those narratives, so that more folks come into this great profession that I think gives so much life and meaning to the different things that we do. I write a column for the captain called Career confidential, which is a lot of fun. It's like being Dear Abby for educators, which is kind of like, you tell me what your problem is, and I try to give you a solution which, you know, whatever. I'm one person. I have ideas, but take it or leave it. It's a good time. And then, you know, rewinding. I still consult specifically around assessment practices. It is my heartfelt goal to make every classroom as learner centered as possible, and kind of get rid, get rid of the inhumane sort of practices that have been perpetrated really since we started industrial, the industrial model of what schooling looks like, and just trying to give kids more voice and choice in what they do and learning doesn't always look one way. So everything that I kind of promote is all about raising student voice, making sure that every child feels like they are seen, heard, belong in the spaces that they're learning in, and that their educators have a better understanding of how to connect with them and use different tools to really grow you know, the learning that's happening in their spaces. And if you go even further back than that, I was a high school. I was a K 12 curriculum director for a district for a little while, leadership was not what I expected it to be. In that capacity, I am not a terribly political person, and definitely do not want to waste my energy playing politics in a district. And so that experience turned out to be a little bit of a bust. But from there, you know, I was a high school English and journalism teacher, and I think my heart will always be in the high school classroom. So maybe, maybe one day I will be teaching again. I work with a lot of pre service programs now, people who use my books, and you know, if I, if I could have the opportunity to even be a part of a pre service program, I'd love to eventually teach a class about alternative assessment and grading practices so that we don't have to remediate with educators once we get into the classroom. 

Toni Rose Deanon  4:58  
Yeah, I have a couple of questions. Questions follow up, right? Because, you know, you've had all of these different hats, and I love that you called out, like the leadership position was not actually what I wanted or desired, so that was just different than what I expected. How did you get into assessments? Was it when you were back in the classroom that you were like, oh, there's like, really inhumane practices here. And I love that you use that word as well, because it is inhumane, right? Like this is wild, that we just continue to normalize these practices, and especially when we're talking about assessments and mastery based learning and mastery based grading, right? How did you get into assessments?

Starr Sackstein  5:33  
So that's a really good question. I mean, I'm sure most folks, when they get into education, they're like, I'm going to be a nerd about assessment, um, because I am, I like, I really like assessment is learning. So like this whole idea of creating these spaces where kids have the ability to advocate for themselves because they have the language to speak. It for for me, it was when my son was actually in elementary school, they use standards based reporting, and I was teaching AP English at the time, and very frustrated that on my report card, I got one letter grade and pre slugged comments that, you know, I didn't even have control over about what it said about each kid. And I could put a B on 15 different kids report cards, and it could mean something different, but nobody knew it meant anything different, and I saw the power of the reporting that was happening for my son in elementary school. And I had also just picked up Ken O'Connor's book, 15 fixes for broken grading, and sat there in shame as I read most of it, because most of the things he said you shouldn't do I was guilty of doing. So it was like the perfect moment of being ready for that messaging and wanting to do the research to do better. I think I always really connected with the kids who had the most struggles in classrooms like I think they knew I was there, their champion, so to speak. My first teaching gig was in the inner city in New York, and I had kids who were way below level and just not accustomed to coming to school regularly, who had an adult at school that they really connected with. And I was super young at the time too. So I and I was so ignorant like that was part of it too, like my own ignorance in that early phases coming out of an affluent suburban community in on Long Island, and then going five miles in a different direction and being in this inner city space that didn't look anything like what I grew up with, and I don't know like, it's like my heart grew three sizes having that first position, and I fell in love with helping kiddos who weren't traditionally in love with being in school and just trying to give them a space to know that someone cared and that we could do better. So, you know, perfect storm kind of situation, and I just started going down the rabbit hole, what could I do differently? I made tons of mistakes, which is kind of where hacking assessment grew out of, because I was trying to figure it out on my own. Twitter was blowing up back then too. And so, like, my community wasn't the folks that I had in my building, because they thought I was nuts. And then I, you know, I found my people online, started taking a lot of risks, started reading a lot of books, and then started deciding that even the books that had been written didn't do all the things that I had really wanted to do for my kids and and what did that look like differently in my space?

Toni Rose Deanon  8:50  
Okay, I heard a lot of things. I was writing all the things down, because there's, there's points that I really want to bring up again, right? What you said assessment is learning, and I think that that is really important. And I know that our what's happening now is that sometimes assessment has the connotation of a negative connotation, right? Where there is a lot of shame, because that is kind of what we've created in this learning experience, is that if you don't, quote, unquote, pass this assessment, then you are not good enough, right? Or you are not good period. And so you know, when you were doing a lot of, when you were doing some reflection here, right? Of, you know, I was reading this book, and then I realized, wow, I was part of the problem. There's so many things that I'm doing actually, that I'm that I didn't know was, quote, unquote, the best or, like, the worst practices, right? And so I think when you were talking about how being how you were super young and ignorant in the classroom. I It blows my mind that people trust 22 year olds to go into classrooms, right if you were to follow the four year plan to go into classrooms and teach students. And so there's a lot of like maturity and ignorance as well that comes to play. And I always tell teachers that I work with is that we teach the way we are taught. It's just kind of how it is right. And we say to ourselves, like, no, no, it's okay. I turned out okay. So I'm just going to continue to practice these, these things that I've been that I've been experiencing as a student. So I'll continue to do that as a teacher. And so I also really like the fact that, you know, you were exposed to standard based grading as a parent, right? And it was something I love that, because that's that's a perspective that I don't have. I don't I don't have kids, so I don't know what kids out here are experiencing right now, but you were able to see that and say, like, Oh, this is the practice. I want this practice. Why am I doing this at my school? But my child is getting this like there's got to be something that I can do. And star, I do have to say we have, we have educators who are implementing our model, who are the only person implementing the model in their in their school, right? And that's really hard, and for you to just say, you know, I couldn't find the community in my own school building, so I had to go sought out community in other virtual spaces. And I think that's really important for us to remember too, or a reminder even, and a permission to say, like, it's okay if you don't have that community in that school building, it sucks, yes, and it's okay. There are other communities that are willing to welcome you with open arms, willing to have conversations with you, be a thought partner with you, and to just kind of walk through all the things, all the mistakes you're going to go through. And mistakes are not bad. Mistakes are lessons learned, right? And so thank you for just all of this, because I think this is so important for us to keep in mind that it's all hard. It's all hard. There's a lot of shame behind it, because we don't want to see us ourselves doing quote, unquote bad thing, bad things, right? So I just, I really, I really appreciate the reminders, the permissions and all of that. So thank you. Now I know in the beginning I said listeners that I was exposed to your work back in 2015 which is wild now to think about, right? So I had the privilege to give a book review on middle on middle web, on your book hacking assessment, 10 Ways to go grade list in a traditional grade school. And it's so funny, because I was reading the review and I could see, I could feel that I was open to it and I was also resistant. I was like, now, but then, how do you really do it like this? This is cool and all, but like, how about this? How you know I was, I was definitely that teacher. And so I do want to share also that your book was definitely the seed that was planted for mastery based learning for me. And so what was your motivation behind this book? And I know you kind of talked about a little bit about assessment already, and how that came into, kind of your role, of how you looked into hacking it, right? But what was the motivation behind this book? And then you also wrote a new edition two years ago, which I wasn't even aware you just like, was, you know, you just told me, Hey, I have a new edition. I was like, oh, gosh, okay, great. I need to read that. So like tell us an update that you included in this new edition. 

Starr Sackstein  13:05  
So it was twofold, because I was alone and doing all these things, but I was having such great success, and it took me such a long time to kind of figure out systems that made it more efficient. Because whenever I would make these suggestions to folks, it would be like, Oh, I can't do that. What about the time that it takes to do these things? And I would say, yes, and you can do these things, but you have to, you have to be comfortable giving up control in the space, because you're not going to be able to run through an entire curriculum doing it the way you've always done it, and also do this thing, you're right, you will not have time. So I think what I was trying to do is memorialize the experiences that I had once I had worked through a system that really worked and was sustainable and was replicable. Because it took me years to get to that point like honestly, I started probably tinkering with this stuff in about 2010 and I started writing hacking assessment, probably around 2013 and that's when I was blogging, and I was doing a lot of research. And, like I said, Twitter was blowing up. I was finding my people, and, like, really thinking about all the things that I wish I would have known when I had started teaching in 2001 and yeah, just I've been in education a really freaking long time at this point, I don't see it in like, when I look at myself in the mirror, I don't see that about myself. But like, at the same time, the amount of experience that led me to that point, I also knew that people couldn't be forced into making this big switch. So like creating a resource that I felt people could use. And at that time, Mark Barnes had just started the hack learning series and had done hacking education, and Angela Stockman did make writing which is brilliant. Also. Ago, and he was like, You should do the assessment book, because he was aware, like, we had been a part of the Corwin Connected Educator series. I had done the blogging for educators book, and that's how Mark and I met. And so it was like this perfect storm of, like, all of the stars aligning and every metaphor and cliche you could think of. And I had done national board certification, which was a part of also how I started incorporating that metacognitive element into the self assessment piece, which again, took the onus off of me to be the only grader in the room. And I think what I struggled with in that situation as a writing teacher was writing is like art to me, terribly subjective, and the more experienced I got in the classroom, the less equipped I felt to grade other people's writing, especially as a writer, you know, like we all have a voice. We all have a perspective. So how do I best support these youngsters who are developing their voices, and do it in a humane way that gives them ownership and permission to decline my feedback if they don't feel that it is furthering the message of what they want to be saying and teaching them to be super intentional about what they write, why they write it, why they break rules, why they follow rules, and really give them the permission to carve the pathway for themselves. And that's sort of what hacking assessment was to this permission to carve pathways that are different from the traditional spaces that are happening in that in that time. And so hacking assessment was born. It was kind of like this little gift that I was able to give to folks who were ready to listen. And then when I wrote the second edition, there were a lot of things that I had learned in the years in between. And I will say that every book I write is sort of the most current iteration of my thinking on certain things. So there's an evolution that happens the more mature and more marinated these ideas kind of get for me. And one of the things that was really missing from the first book, in my opinion, was like leadership tips and different different strategies, as well as the inclusion of all the hacks in action. Weren't my stories anymore. They were people who read the original hacking assessment and were doing the things. And so there was a more robust and more inclusive sort of nature. So they were K 12 examples, not just high school examples. They spanned every content area, not just English, because English was my background, that's what my what, where I went with it. And I've also had opportunities over the last bunch of years to like almost every one of those chapters, in some way, shape or form, has developed into its own book, peer feedback in the classroom. My last one with ASCD two student led, which is all about portfolios and conferring with students. So like, I've had the opportunity to go more deeply into each of those spaces as the years have gone on and you know, so there's this whole, like little compendium of, you know, depending on where you are in your journey, what do you start with? Where do you go? What do you do, and what's the best diet for you and your space that's going to work with what you're trying to accomplish?

Toni Rose Deanon  18:36  
Oh, these are so great. I i appreciate the reflection of what was the missing piece, and so you wanted to add that. And also the call out of, like, you know, whenever I write things, this is the current iteration of my thinking, which, again, just kind of shows right? Things change, things, add or delete or revise or edit, right? And that's totally okay. One thing that really popped up to for me is the connection piece, right? Like, you were able to create connections with people, to highlight the work that you're doing, and also to have those conversations with different types of teachers, right? Because, I know, looking back at the book review that I did again, I was like, oh, but this is all in AP classes, right? Like, how does this work in middle school? Oh, my gosh, dar, cringe, that was, I was definitely that teacher. I was like, it has to be specifically to my content, to my grade level, to my school environment. So it's really interesting that, you know you were like, you know you're right. Like people teachers specifically really need that specific scaffolding as well so that they can see it. Because again, I think I feel like our brains are so overwhelmed. And I think when I was reading this, that was where I was coming from, too, is like, No, I can see how that works for you, but your class is AP, right? So there's still that resistance. And I really appreciate the call out too, of like, things like, when we're innovating, when we're creating, when we're doing. Something different than other people. This is something that can't be forced Right. Like you said, people have to be ready to give up that control, ready to just shake things up and to start sometimes from ground zero, because clearly, things are not working the way that we want it to work, right? And that's also okay, and again, also mind you know, acknowledging the fact that teachers are overwhelmed and so they don't have the capacity to shake things up sometimes, and so we want to create those spaces so that teachers do have the time to shake things up, right? We want to make that time.

Zach Diamond  20:37  
Hey there, listeners. This is Zach dropping in with some announcements and reminders for you calling all school and district leaders. We're hosting a virtual summer summit on June 24 for leaders supporting modern classrooms. Educators. Leaders will learn practical skills from fellow leaders, attend workshops of their choice and connect with the modern classrooms project leadership, collaborative community. Modern classrooms. Co founder Rob Barnett is our featured keynote speaker, and will share insights from his book, meet every learner's needs alongside voices of students, educators and leaders. We invite educators to share the summit with their leaders and invite leaders to register. Want to start building your own modern classroom. Sign up for our summer virtual mentorship program from June 23 to July, 27 work with one of our expert educators to build materials for your own classroom. We have scholarships all over the country so you can enroll for free if you teach in Chicago, Alabama, Oakland, LA, Minnesota and more. To see if there's an opportunity for you, check out modern classrooms.org/apply-now. That's modern classrooms.org/apply-now. We're hosting two book clubs this summer. We're reading the promises and perils of AI in education, by Ken Shelton and Dee Lanier in June, and the identity conscious educator, by Lisa tallison In July, look out for more details. Finally, want to connect with other educators of color who are creating a more student centered learning environment. Join our monthly shades of excellence meetup on Tuesday, May 27 at 7pm Eastern. There will be links for all of this in the show notes, so check back there if you'd like more information, or you'd like to register. But for now, let's go ahead and get back into it with TR and Starr

Toni Rose Deanon  22:30  
the book, I think, as an English teacher, which I love English teachers, we're so dope. You know, we really want we love writing because it captures our stories. It captures our thinking. It captures everything that is going on. And that's something that we can always go back to and say, like, Oh, that was how I was thinking. So I really appreciate that you named you know, we that you started this book because you wanted to capture what worked for you. You wanted to provide kind of like that guide for teachers who are interested in potentially doing something different, so that teachers aren't just kind of freaking out trying to figure out where to start, right? So I really like that you have this entry access point for students to play or for teachers to be able to play around, right, and the leadership tips You're right. That was something that was something that I wasn't even thinking about because I was like, I'm a teacher. I don't care about leadership right now. I care about my perspective. My perspective only very tunnel vision here, clearly. So I love that you expanded to leadership with the new edition. So thank you for that. You know we've talked about my own hesitancy, and we are aware that things like this cannot be for so it has to be for teachers who are ready, who are in that space, to be receptive to shake things up. And so there's also a group of teachers, a group of adults, who are not aware of their own grading practices, right? So this is something that I've learned and I've embraced, is that we don't know what we don't know. So what is the step to get educators to reflect on the way that they assess students, and how can school leaders support that reflection?

So that's a great question. Toni Rose, because honestly, like, one of one of my, like, introductory, sort of like conference sessions. That I do is really questioning, getting people to consider their current practices. And I'll say to them straight in when they walk in, I will consider this session a success if you walk out of here questioning at least one thing you do already. I don't care what it is, and I don't care if you agree or disagree with what I've presented. But if you walk out of here saying, maybe what I'm doing isn't what's best for the kiddos who are sitting in front of me, then I know that you're going to find a way to do whatever that looks like for your community, and what's going to work for that. So. Sometimes I've done like, four corners activities where I'll put up some pretty, pretty normal sort of statements that you'll hear, like the pushback that I get when I say these kinds of things to people, like, kids need grades to be motivated, which I vehemently disagree with. But this is, this is a really prominent narrative with when it comes to grading and assessment. I also think there's a conflation between grading, assessing and testing that's just completely incorrect. Assessing the verb is very much this ongoing iterative process. When we think about like the formative assessment process, not just checks for understandings at different spots, but like actual teaching kids to goal set, track their progress, get the feedback they need, iterate like it's a whole process. And I think that when we reduce it to single moments we are really, I don't know we are, like, really watering down possibilities of things that could happen in our spaces. And I think that there's so much anxiety tied up in testing also, that if we could disassociate testing as a separate thing from assessment. I think maybe we can start agreeing a little bit more on what those kinds of things look like. And then, you know, as as we're parsing out all these things, because you working where you work now, I'm sure you do see this. It baffles me every single time I walk into a space and realize that we all use terminology like formative and summative assessment, like we are all speaking the same language, but we are not. We are not speaking the same language, and so even if you could get your school to have a defined vocabulary around assessment that you all agree on, even if it's not the textbook version of what it is, but you are all speaking the same language in your school, then that is the first major step to really digging into this process. And I don't care where you fall on the spectrum, I think everyone would agree that if when I say one term in one class, and a student walks into another class a little bit later, and another teacher is using that same vocabulary, and it actually means the same thing, that experience for the learner who's moving through all of those different spaces is going to be markedly better, because they know that they're not code switching in every single space that they walk into, which is another cognitive lift which is going to take them away from the actual learning. So how do we make this experience more seamless? And I think that when we question these long held practices, we we kind of, you know, we talked about innovating, but we need to move with the times, like there's so much new research out there, brain research that suggests how learning happens and labeling learning to go back to that word inhumane, like learning happens so fast and so slow at the same time that sometimes You have to slow down to go fast. Every learner goes at a different pace. So when, when we put arbitrary labels on things in the middle of a process, we're destroying a flow that could potentially be moving like building momentum, and which is why, like, when people are like, what's the very first step I could take? That doesn't take very much effort. I'm like, stop grading everything. Just stop putting a score on every single thing that you like, homework. Stop giving it every day. Stop grading it. Stop doing all these things. And they're like, but kids won't do it. Kids will. If you're offering learning experiences that they find value in, they will very much take the time to do it, and if you give them time in class to at least get their juices flowing around these things, they'll want to take it home with them. They won't want to leave class. At least that was my experience in the classroom. Was it all winners? No, I want to be very clear about that, and I don't know how we feel about cursing on this podcast, but happens a whole freaking lot in these spaces. And when you're sitting in a room full of 34 adolescents, if you think things are going to go well all the time, you signed up for the wrong gig, honestly, like that's a lot of personality in a space with a lot of hormones and and you're a human being too, with your own life going on. So you could have great ideas that are poorly executed, you could have bad ideas that are well executed and still have the same result. And it's really a matter of being really cognizant and intentional about the specific things that you're doing. And then it. Creating yourself, getting feedback from the kids, making sure your objectives and your results are lining up. Because that was like clarity was a huge problem for me in the beginning, and I don't think I even knew it was a problem for me until I got back, like, 30 different versions of what I thought I asked for and then blamed them for it. Yikes, because clearly, if they all thought it was something different, who's the only common denominator in that scenario? I'm the common denominator. So like, obviously, it's just, maybe I'm just a naturally reflective human being, but like, it just didn't feel right. So, like, when those feelings start to happen for folks, instead of ignoring them and moving on, like, investigate, get curious. Why isn't this working? And don't be afraid to ask your kiddos for you know, feedback, like, they might not say things you want to hear, but they're things you need to hear. So ask and listen and try not to be offended when you hear exactly what you need to hear, even if it hurts your feelings

when you hear exactly what you need to hear, not what you want to hear, but what you need to hear. And I think that's very scary, right, especially when it comes to being vulnerable, thinking that we're doing our best, we are trying our best, and then you're telling me that my best is not good, so that in itself, right? It's, oh, my goodness. Okay, so star, all right, let's go from the beginning this whole concept of you saying, when you lead sessions, you want your attendees, and you want your participants to lead, you know, walk away with questioning one thing. This is such a huge shift for me, because I always in my head, when I create learning experiences like this, I always want people to take away one thing, but to question it. Oh my gosh, that's a whole new thing, because then now you're really providing them a space, or not even providing kind of like a force in the most beautiful way, right, to reflect and to think about what they can continue doing, what they should not continue doing, right? So this whole questioning is so important, and I'm going to steal that. I'm going to start shifting the spaces that I create to have that, that takeaway, right, that questioning, one thing. Another thing that you said, too is that the fact that, like we have words, we all use the same words, we all have different definitions. And so really starting out with like, Hey, this is what it means to assess, this is what it means to master something is really important. Like you said, clarity is key. And then you tied that in with code switching. I mean, my little brown self was like, Oh my gosh, yes. That makes so much sense. That makes so much sense, like, Code switching is exhausting, and if I'm having to focus on my code switching, I'm not going to be able to focus on what I'm actually supposed to be learning, right? So how do we kind of alleviate those stresses and alleviate the barriers. Because I this is something I tell teachers all the time too, is that we are always creating barriers unintentionally. So we really have to acknowledge the fact that we're doing that and be receptive when people call us in on the barriers that we're creating unintentionally, right? And the last thing too, is to stop grading everything part. Teachers love to create work, more work for ourselves, and it is wild to think that it's easy as stop grading everything. You really don't have to grade everything, and you're absolutely right. Students will still do the work if it is meaningful, if it is relevant, if it makes sense to them, it's not busy work. Students know when it's busy work, right? And they know when this is actually going to help me outside of the classroom. So the whole thing, the whole narrative that you said kids need grades to be motivated, I've heard that multiple times too. It's like, No, that's a narrative that we've created, that the education system is created for us to just continue focusing and honing in on the grades, right? So, oh my goodness. Love this love, this love, this love, this, so much. This is such a great conversation. Okay, so quickly, what are some traditional ways we assess that we can leave behind?

Starr Sackstein  34:17  
I would say the weekly quiz can be totally gotten rid of 150% I don't think you know, I understand that some content areas really rely on these as checks. But unless you're gonna do something with the information that you're getting from it, and it is truly formative and not summative, I would say just get rid of it. I would also say that we have to create more collaborative spaces and less competitive ones. I know that some kids really do enjoy a nice little competition from time to time, but when it comes to learning a cooperative approach is probably going to be more. Successful plus in the world that we're living in right now, collaboration is a really important skill set. It is not something that you know, we just Intuit at some point, just like metacognition isn't something we innately know how to do. These are things that need to be taught. They need to be practiced. So building a community and culture in our space that's more authentic. So project based learning, where there's an authentic audience at the end, solving real problems, and not just, you know, fabricated ones that we think make things more interesting. I think also maybe I don't even know, like some of the other ones, I just also teacher as teacher is the only assessor in this space is something we should probably get rid of. Students do understand, like, if we give them the right tools, the right vocabulary, they know how to self assess, peer assess. So then again, when we come back to the you know, there's too much of all of this going on, so share some of that weight. Teach Kids how to be responsible, give feedback so that you're not the only person giving feedback in the room. And as soon as you let go of that control, I feel like kids, you'll always have those one or two kids that are super obsessed with you needing to be the one to give them the feedback. But I do think that if you create a culture where it's less about you as the only person with knowledge in the space, the more comfortable they are getting that information from their peers. But it starts with us like. You can't just let it go, like, and then, you know, still hold on with one finger. You actually have to, like, release it completely and be there as a backup facilitator, and not as, like, the main the main event.

Toni Rose Deanon  36:57  
It's really that power dynamic right in the classroom, like, we really want to hold on to that power, because a lot of the times that is the only power we have in that school building, right? So being able to release that power and release that control. Because I definitely, when I started implementing, like, mastery base, like, no grades kind of thing, I was still holding on, like, my pinky was still like, Nope, still, it's still in control. And Kareem was basically, was like, No, you gotta let go. Like, you got it for real. Let go. For this to work, you have to let go. And again, I think the 10, the authentic piece is really important, right? So project based learning, there's inquiry based learning as well, providing students lots of choice real world problems, because we got a lot of problems in this world, so we might as well give it to the students to figure out. How can we fix it? Yeah, exactly, exactly. And something that, like, we probably think is not a problem, but then our students are like, No, this is a problem. Like, hey, that's a choice that is, that is a choice that they're choosing to analyze, to critique, to figure out, what are some solutions that come up, right? And I love this whole collaborative piece I'm all about. I let me work with people, because it's so much more fun when I work with people, as opposed to competing. Like competing is healthy sometimes, but I choose collaboration over competition any day. So thank you for sharing that piece. Okay, so I know we had a couple more questions, but is there anything else that you wanted to say before we close this out, because I do want to be mindful of time? 

Starr Sackstein  38:21  
Sure. Um, I will say that I do have a new book coming out with some other awesome ladies, um, Mary, Ann DeRosa, Alexandra Lang and Tiffany Turner Hall. We created this book called The everything guide to solving school like all the school problems. And basically what it is is this homage to recognizing that there are so many problems out there, but there are also so many people who have already found solutions. So really what the book does is it provides solutions to these common problems through either research or people who have had success solving that problem. So we're elevating and celebrating stories and education of success, and we had 107 contributors with those success stories. And we are also helping folks who are currently in the throes of those those challenges, and obviously we are in an unprecedented time right now with what's happening to education. So I think it's really important for all of us who have a voice and a platform, to be that voice in that platform, to keep education moving in the right direction, and not falling back to, you know, 100 years ago, and just being really mindful of those things. You know, we have a lot of kiddos and educators too, who are in vulnerable places, and some of us are more visible than others. And you know, there's no. Time better than now to use the platform, you have to do right by people who don't have voices of their own

Toni Rose Deanon  40:06  
Starr. I love the acknowledgement. I love that you're elevating voices. I love this work that you're doing. I know, prior to this recording, we were talking about how folks who are well known, you know, quote, unquote experts in the assessment space, they all look alike, right? And so we're like, oh, we need some diversity here, right? And so it's really great that you're in this space. It's great that you're working with a bunch of women and then elevating again, stories and experts that don't have that platform. So thank you for your work. I'm excited to continue collaborating with you, because I feel like this is going to be a whole vibe. I feel like I have so many ideas of what all we can do together and so exciting. So okay, how can our listeners connect with you? Because I know you have, you have all the information

Starr Sackstein  40:50  
I do so crystal fromert And I have a pod, a podcast called learner centered spaces. You could check that out on Apple and Spotify and all those. It usually comes out every other week. I am on LinkedIn most now I have abandoned Twitter. I'm not even going to acknowledge its new name, and I'm on blue sky, but I don't know, like I'm still trying to find that balance where I'm not on social as much as I used to be. I think that it was a little addictive for me for a little bit. And when I cut Twitter out, I felt a great relief to not have to have that around anymore. And so blue sky is secondary, but LinkedIn is my, my main professional space. I have a website as well, which you could reach out to me through it. We're just that miss everything is ms Saxton. So Ms saxton.com ms Saxena Gmail, you know, Ms saxteen, because that's who I was when I was in the classroom. And I have an Amazon authors page with all the books that I've written. And my TED talk is also folks are just starting out, and they want to really think about whether or not this, this direction, is direction they want to go in. It's 11 minutes of real, vulnerable transparency about the way that I got there, and acknowledging my own foibles along the way, along the way. So I have heard that people have found it useful. So those are good, and

Toni Rose Deanon  42:21  
we will link all of that in the show notes, so no need for you to all. Google will have that ready for you, so you can easily click on it. But again, I am so excited, and just, I just feel full, I think. And so this is amazing. Thank you, right. This is so cool. Like you said, how did we never not be in the same space before? This is so wild, the universe continues to provide so with that again, just thank you star. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your energy. Thank you for your expertise and your experiences and just being here. Thank you for being you. I appreciate it. And yeah, we'll talk again soon. Yes, please.

Zach Diamond  43:03  
Thank you all so much for listening. This episode is the end of season seven, which is unbelievable to me. I can't believe we have that many seasons already, and we didn't even start off with our seasons. We just started with numbered episodes. So wow, it's been quite a journey with this podcast, and I just can't express how thankful I am, how thankful Toni Rose and I are, and all the folks at modern classrooms to you all for listening every week and emailing us with questions and comments and sometimes editing mistakes that I go back in and fix. So thank you all so much. We really do appreciate it. You're the reason that we're still here doing this, and we love having the opportunity to share all these educators incredible insights with you. So this is the end of season seven. We're gonna start up our sort of summer shenanigans. Here next week, we'll have some short casts or recap episodes for you, along with some other little surprises that we have in store. So make sure to stay tuned, but we'll be back at the beginning of the school year, 2526 thank you all again, so much for listening to season seven and all the episodes before that. If you have been and have a great summer, get some rest, and we'll be back in a couple months.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai