Zach Diamond  0:03  
Welcome to the Modern Classrooms Project podcast. Each week, we bring you discussions with educators on how they use blended, self paced and mastery based learning to better serve their students. We believe teachers learn best from each other. So this is our way of lifting up the voices of leaders and innovators in our community. This is the Modern Classrooms Project podcast. 

Hello, and welcome to episode 131 of the Modern Classrooms Project podcast. My name is Zack Diamond, and I'm an MCP mentor, and a middle school digital music teacher in Washington DC. And today I'm joined by Carmen Welton, a high school Spanish teacher and the Head of the Modern and Classical Languages Department at Concord Academy in Concord, Massachusetts. Welcome Carmen, welcome to the podcast.

Carmen Welton  0:53  
Hi, it's nice to be here.

Zach Diamond  0:55  
It's great to have you, this is going to be a really interesting conversation. I feel like I always say that because all these topics are really interesting to me, this one I'm particularly interested in. Because it's come up in a lot of different ways. And like responses from listeners, we're going to be talking about comments experience implementing modern classrooms at an independent school. Before we fully dive into the topic, Carmen, I want to let you introduce yourself first. So tell us a little bit about who you are, what you teach how you came to where you are now, and also a little bit about your modern classrooms journey.

Carmen Welton  1:23  
Great. So I've been teaching for eight years at Concord Academy. Before that, I taught at a different reason smaller private school in Western Mass. And just last year, I actually was on maternity leave in the winter. I had a baby last January. Congratulations. Thank you. And, and with so while I was on maternity leave, I was just, you know, just like thinking about my teaching, and my class. And I had left all these instructions for the substitute. And it was, she was like reaching out to me a lot while I was on leave for support, which was great. That was like a lot of contact with her. And at one point I was we were sort of talking about a head flipped a lesson. And so she was going to use the video. And I was just sort of doing some research online and ended up listening to the Cult of Pedagogy episode, where they interview, Kareem were Jennifer interviews Kareem about MCP. And I just my like, mind exploded, and I was just I went down the rabbit hole. And I basically converted the rest of my school year curriculum for last spring when I came back from maternity leave into like a beta version of modern classroom. And so that was what I started. And then over the summer, I did the, the virtual class and worked with a mentor. And that was amazing. And I really tried to sort of shift all of my curriculum and all the courses they teach into the modern classroom model. And that's how I've been doing all this year. And it's amazing. And I've actually gotten a couple of other colleagues at my school to also try it out, which has been really fun to sort of form a little Professional Learning Community. Cool in that way in our in our school. Yeah, it's been really great. And there's a lot of enthusiasm from from some people around the sort of opportunities it offers.

Zach Diamond  3:22  
Yeah, yeah. No, that's awesome. So I was I was curious to ask you if you're the only teacher at your school who's doing it, but it sounds like you're sort of the touch point at your school for modern classrooms. Are you? Are you the only one who did the training?

Carmen Welton  3:34  
I think so far, I am the only one who's done like the full class. But I have a couple colleagues who I'm pretty sure over the winter, like, at the end of the fall semester, we're starting to chip away at things. And a couple of them have started introducing like lessons in a modern classroom style this spring semester. So I am anticipating that a lot of them are going to do I don't it's not a huge number of people, but that a few people will be doing it this summer.

Zach Diamond  4:02  
Yeah, but still, that's so cool. That's so cool that other teachers are seeing it and being like, oh, yeah, I want to try that. I love that. And I'm also curious, I'm going to ask you this later, because I have questions about your class. But I'm curious to hear about that beta modern classroom because I did something very similar. When I first saw Karim's class, I was just like, I gotta try this right now. And I tried some some little things before I did the training. So I want to hear more about that. And, of course, the Cult of Pedagogy. That's just a really common way of finding MCP. And I will link the all three of those episodes in our show notes, although I imagine that any listener to this podcast has probably already heard. But I will of course, like them. So let's let's get into the topic. So we're talking about implement implementing modern classrooms at an independent or a private school. And I know I should say like, this is a very US centric podcast, but we do have many listeners and many, many guests in fact, on our podcast, who teach Chet independent schools abroad outside of the US. And so this is a bigger chunk of our listenership than I think I personally would have expected before I saw the feedback and the emails that we were getting and things like that. So I really am glad to be diving into this topic specifically. And I feel like I'm here to sort of be educated by you, because my experience teaching has all been in public and public charter schools, and also universities, but I guess that doesn't really count. So, before we start talking about your experience, I'm wondering if you could sort of describe what an independent school is what a private school is. Just broadly, what what are we talking about here?

Carmen Welton  5:39  
Yeah, so there's like a sort of formal definition, I guess, of independent school, independent private school, which would be that they are independent in two ways. There's the mission that makes the school independent, that it sort of exists with a mission. And the sort of philosophy that drives how things are done at the school and the sorts of things that the school prioritizes. And then they're also independent, in that they are managed and financed independently from like, a public like the state, right? And so or like a, you know, a more formal body, I guess there's, there's just the Board of Trustees. And there's tuition, and that's how schools those schools are, are like, supported financially. And so there are like accrediting bodies, and I'm in New England, there's NEA ask, which is the New England Association of Schools and Colleges, we have to be accredited by them every so often. And so there's definitely ways in which the Independent School community is like linked. And you know, we're in the athletic leagues together. And the students who do mock trial are competing against other peer schools in the area. They're also typically independent schools. So we're not like isolated, but it's independence from sort of state standards, for example, or testing. Those are not those are not things we have to think about. Really,

Zach Diamond  7:07  
right. Is the term Independent School and the term private school, are those interchangeable? Are they the same thing?

Carmen Welton  7:13  
I think private school from my understanding private school is like a broader term. So private school might also include a parochial school, for example. Or, yeah, I'm not sure. I'm not 100% Sure, if they're, like, totally interchangeable, but you often hear the expression independent private school, as it's a maybe a kind of category of private school.

Zach Diamond  7:38  
Okay, cool. And Carmen should, for the listeners, Carmen shared some links with me also, that I will be dropping in the show notes, if you'd be curious to read more, which I am. And I haven't read them yet, because I just saw the links. But check out the show notes for some more on that, you know, I wanted to I wanted to talk about this sort of upfront about sort of the the assumptions that are made about the differences between public and private, or I guess, independent private schools, I really want to try and avoid that in this conversation. And I want to take comments experience sort of at face value. I know a lot of public school teachers, I have heard, use language that to describe public school students in ways that sort of make me uncomfortable. And I want to avoid that. And I also want to give Carmen the benefit of the doubt in this episode. And understand that every teacher faces different challenges, right. And so like, we're going to talk about some of the experiences that she has teaching here. And I want our listeners and I myself, and being very conscious to come to this conversation with sort of an open mind, and to just hear what the experience is like, and hopefully be able to take something from it that I can apply in, in my public charter school setting, because all students deserve to be held to the same expectations. Right. So let's, let's dive in. Let's dive in. So I guess just to start off, let's start as broadly as possible, even putting aside of the independent school situation. Describe your modern classroom for me. You mentioned you've been doing this for about a year. So and we were talking before we began recording, you're kind of in the like, the refining phase, like you've had the experience, and now you're like refining your modern classroom. So just tell me about your modern classroom? How does it look like if I walked in one day? What would I see? Like, what is the tracker look like? What are your mastery checks, like? And how often do you give them describe that kind of stuff to me and to our listeners?

Carmen Welton  9:27  
Sure, yeah. So I guess I'll start by saying, so teach Spanish. And I teach the sort of upper levels of the trajectory. So I teach level three, which is our last required level before the students the students have to complete before they can graduate. And then I also teach advanced electives. So students after they finished level three can choose to take we have we offer a bunch of different electives that are sort of content based as opposed to sort of just grammar more grammar focused. And so I've done mode I'm doing modern classroom and all of my class says, and I'd do it differently in the different levels. So I think the one I think probably makes the most, the one where I'm the most faithful to the modern classroom model is my level three class. And so if you were to walk in there, you would see, I always project on the board during the period, like a public facing tracker, which is just sort of showing students I color code. If you know, the lesson that they sort of, are, should be on if they're on pace, a lesson, the lesson before I am color coding, to show that they are probably behind pace if they're still working on it. And then I'll also like put on the tracker, the next lesson that some kids might be starting or moving into if they're ahead of pace. And so the students kind of have a sense always just by referencing the board. Where I'm expecting most of them are probably working. And I think this is that's really helpful for the students. I saw this. I mean, speaking of tweaking, and constantly honing and refining, I started the year this year with paper, private trackers, like each student had a paper checklists where they would have each of the lessons and everything that they were going to they were supposed to do, and they would be checking it off. And I would like find them in the recycling bin or left behind. So I started, so I stopped making them after about three units, like so it was sort of two thirds of the way through the fall semester, I just for the next unit. I just didn't make one. And I had two or three students request them. So I actually I had I had created one. So I did print them off for those kids. But then, for the other students, I just they were just using the public tracker, I realized. And the other thing is we have our learning management system. And I have everything up there very clearly categorized and folders and the students were just using the LMS. They were they were going through the lessons because they're numbered, and they've like It's like lesson one a lesson one B lesson was

Zach Diamond  12:05  
just so so important to do it that way. I do that too. It really, really works.

Carmen Welton  12:10  
Yeah. And I realized it was the Progress Tracker was like redundant. So like the paper one for a lot of the students. And so I just I stopped doing a paper Progress Tracker. For everybody. I have them available if students want them, I'm actually when we come back, we're on spring break right now. But when we come back from spring break, I have actually I've developed a new Progress Tracker that I am going to print again and see if that like helps, because our most recent unit, kids got really off pace. And I was wondering if part of it was because we had kind of let something slide like progress trackers. So that's something I've been thinking a lot about is like how how to present the lessons to the students. You know, I think this is not unique to independent schools. But teaching high school, probably everybody who has a group of adolescents knows that you have kids who have like really strong executive functioning, and they're able to keep track of everything. And you give them a checklist, and they're so faithful to it. And then you have kids who are sort of all over the map with that kind of stuff. And I found that the LMS system was the one that held the most held most students accountable. The easiest for everybody involved. Ours, our LMS allows you to like see who's completed what so I can like check and see if students are like clicking through activities, and

Zach Diamond  13:32  
Sorry, which LMS do you use? Oh, Schoology Okay. Schoology. Okay, yeah.

Carmen Welton  13:38  
And then, the way I've I've set things up is within a unit, I have usually five lessons or so. And I have a lesson usually we start by looking at a set of vocabulary, then we'll move into a grammar structure for the next lesson, then we'll do something like watch a short film or read a poem or a short story. Or we'll watch an interview with someone about a topic that's related to the use the unit theme. And with each of the lessons, I'll have some sort of mastery check. If it's grammar, it's usually like a fill in the blank or a multiple choice or a, you know, rewrite this sentence with a different form. Something that's very quick for me to sort of give them feedback in the moment and say, yep, you're out. You got this, you know exactly what you're doing with vocab. Similarly, it's something that's pretty straightforward. I actually, there's a there's a show you did a while back now with a colleague who is a mandarin teacher,

Zach Diamond  14:40  
Oh a colleague of mine. Yes. With Xiaomin. Yes,

Carmen Welton  14:43  
Yeah, he was a foreign language teacher. And I remember he described this mastery check he was doing with students with vocabulary and I've started doing it it's such a good people should go listen to that episode of their language teachers. Oh, cool. That was like the best tip ever. Okay, cool.

Zach Diamond  14:58  
I linked it in the show notes. Sorry, I thought you meant a colleague of yours, but you meant a colleague of mine. Yeah, Xiaomin, that was a great episode, I will link that.

Carmen Welton  15:07  
I've, like listened to it multiple times, there's so many little nuggets of wisdom,

Zach Diamond  15:10  
I'm gonna tell him, I'll tell him.

Carmen Welton  15:13  
And so then, so and then I also do a lot of oral mastery checks with students. And so when we do something like, they read a poem, or they've watched a short film or an interview, that I usually follow up with a conversation, which is very time consuming. But with the modern classroom structure, I really feel like I have the opportunity to do that with students more in a more leisurely fashion than I ever did. Previously. I think in the past, and I know my colleagues in the language department who don't use modern classroom, if you're gonna do orals with students for language acquisition, it's like it takes over a whole week, you can't do anything else. While you're doing that with a student in like a quiet space. Everybody else is kind of like what's going on, it's a free for all. And, for me, I feel like that's the hat this year, it's like a total game changer to have the modern classroom. Because if I'm doing oral assessments with students, other students, other people are the rest of them are working on something else. And they know exactly what they should be doing. And they're moving forward with the material, or they're catching up on something that they had to skip before. And it just feels like a lot more efficient. And, and it also is really good for them. Because if I am it physically in the classroom, I find that students, you know, they ask a lot of it, which is great, they asked me a lot of questions they like, reach out to me a lot. But if I'm in the hole working with a student one on one, I can just come in for a moment and see like what questions there are, and then link them up together be like, Oh, you have a question about that. I know, so and so already did the mastery check for that? Why don't they explain it to you. And I've found that doing the mastery, the oral mastery checks has actually created this dynamic in my classroom that really, like it kind of forces the students who are ahead of pace to support the students who are on or behind pace. And that collaboration is like, out of necessity. And then good, because that's really good for the students.

Zach Diamond  17:09  
I mean, I love that I love the idea that like implementing a sort of a very, I don't want to say formalized, but like a set of routines, right? Like these are the way that we do things also leads to the development of like a dynamic or like an organic culture of collaboration. We've had episodes on that. And we've talked about it a lot on this podcast. And it's something that it's something that modern classrooms teachers do talk about a lot, just because it does actually happen. It's it's really quite amazing to see kids helping each other like that. Have you found that they have started checking the tracker themselves to to see who can help them? Do they do that?

Carmen Welton  17:44  
That's something I think we still need to work on. I think I need to work on like how I'm like, how I'm showing them trackers and how they're accessing that information. But it's I am an independent school. Like one of the things most of them prides themselves on is this small classroom sizes, right. And so when I have I usually have around 15 students in a class 13 to 15. They know they kind of know what other people are doing. Right? It's a small enough group where it's pretty clear what everybody's working on.

Zach Diamond  18:14  
Yeah. I mean, even if they're not doing it themselves, I still feel like they can sort of come through me. And it's like a three second interaction, you know, where it's like, yeah, you know, Mr. Diamond, I need help with this. And I'm like, oh, it looks like you know, Johnny's finished lesson three, why don't you go ask him? Right. And that's it, right. And then they go. And it's just a really very positive culture of collaboration I found and I mean, as you described it, I agree, I'm nodding my head here like, yes, that's my class, too. So yeah. Let's, let's talk a little bit more specifically about the Independent School aspect of things. So we were emailing back and forth, sort of narrowing down our ideas for topics here. And you were mentioning that working at an independent school offers you both advantages and disadvantages, in terms of, I guess, just teaching and also in terms of modern classrooms, when you mentioned topics like intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation, differentiation, especially in the school that has a selective admissions process. And you also mentioned resources. I'm just wondering, can you like elaborate a little bit more on any and all of this, this might be a really big question, and you're welcome to go in any direction you'd like with it. But can you elaborate a little bit?

Carmen Welton  19:18  
Yeah, definitely. So I think now, like with the big caveat of I haven't taught in a in a public school, so I can't compare. But I, like I went to public schools, I went to public high school. And I also, like, unlike understand my kids go to public school, I know sort of what some of the parameters are within which public schools have to operate. And I'm aware of the ways in which as an independent school educator, I don't always have to hold myself accountable to certain parameters or, or there are other ones that are that are in place. And so the thing is, Um, that's one of the things I think a lot about is, like you said intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation. And, and I think this is true of all teachers, and all students everywhere, probably in that, like relationships are the prime, mover and shaker have a strong classroom, like ethic, right? Like your kids, if your kids know you, if they trust you, if you have community, that's going to be a better classroom experience for everybody. I think something that has been really powerful about my experience teaching in independent schools, has been the fact that I have so many points of contact with my students outside of my classroom, that they, I know them in this very holistic way. And I find that I can really kind of tailor the classroom experience to the students I have in a given section. And that then links back to like, motivation, and knowing, like, so for example, I, the school, I work at Concord Academy is a boarding and day school, it's about 5050 boarding day, I live on campus in a student house. And so I have students in my classes, who then at 10 o'clock at night, I'm like going into the room saying, hey, it's time to turn your lights off and go to bed. Oh, you're working on your Spanish homework, no, you can't stay up 15 more minutes and finish it, you still have to go to bed, that's the rule. But it like creates this dynamic of accountability. And, and like also of me kind of recognizing the complexity of experience for my students, when they leave my classroom, right that I see them going into their sports practice, because I have also coached or I see them in the dining hall, where I'm having dinner with my kids, and they're sitting with their friends eating as well. And, you know, while I'm like feeding my one year old, and a student comes up and wants to chat about an assignment or a question that they have from class that day. And it that kind of relationship building, I think allows, I don't know, it. It's really powerful. And it has a pretty, I think, for me a pretty profound effect on how I think about what I expected my students in the class, both I think I expect, like I have really high expectations, because I like see these students in all these different contexts and how wise they are and how funny they are and how capable they are. And it's not like the one dimension of ICU in this one class, which maybe you don't even like very much, because it's a topic that you struggle with or find boring. Even if that's the case, I then see them in this other space where they're a very different kind of personality coming out. And I can combine those things. Right. And my understanding of who they are.

Zach Diamond  23:12  
Yeah, I mean, I feel like that is a very unique experience. I feel like that is an experience that the vast majority of teachers and certainly of our listeners do not have getting to know students in that way. It almost feels to me, like that's a level of, of relationship that would cross boundaries that are not to be crossed at my school. And we're a very relationship focused school. But like, when I see my students outside of school, it's like, oh, my gosh, it's Mr. Time and yeah, you know, it's like a big deal. Even just to hear you say that, like seeing a student at 10 o'clock at night, to me is like a, it's such such a big deal in my head, you know? Yeah. So I mean, that's really interesting to hear. And I guess also, like, you know, them, and they also know you, right? Like, you know, they're I'm sort of curious, like how that feels in class. Because there's like, this is a person having them in class is not just like, you know, an hour long, sort of like a window into their lives, as it is for me, you know, I do see my students around at school, I see them at lunch, I see them in the halls. But like, the bulk of my relationship building with students happens in the classroom during class. And so yeah, do you do you? Um, this is not in the outline? I'm just curious, like, do you find that with the boarding students and the day school students, you have different types of relationships? Or does it kind of rub

Carmen Welton  24:39  
off? Yes. But it rubs off. Yeah, exactly. Like I think and also, there's, we have an advising system, which I know a lot of a lot of schools have advisory systems, but I meet with each of my advisors for at least 30 minutes once a week. And it's just like conversation. And we don't have like an agenda. Usually we just are talking and getting to know each other and them, you know, checking in about how their classes are going, et cetera. And I have D students and boarding students, it's just sort of a mix. And I think, like, the fact of the boarding school means that a lot of the day students have the same sorts of under understandings of like, what they can expect from a teacher's, like, what a teacher is going to give to the experience. And like, not all the teachers live on campus. And so I think about, it's probably close to 5050, also there. And so, but, uh, you know, the fact that campus is open all the time, right. And if even if you don't live here, you could come to have dinner here. That goes, that's the same for faculty and students and, and staff, and there's just, there's just like, a lot of texture to the experience. And, you know, I think it affects, like, all of the things you were mentioning that I had sort of described as having both advantages and being advantageous and disadvantageous. Like, the fact that I know these students so so well, it's also it also makes it hard sometimes to like to, like hold someone accountable, right? Because I'm like, Oh, I know, you had a really difficult thing happen outside of class, because I was there when it happened. I saw that fight or whatever. And, you know, I heard you on the phone with someone last night. And that makes me want to, like, like, I have this, like human reaction to it. And then I also have my, like, teacherly reaction of like, I have to sort of, like you said, Hold boundaries and be like, well, this is the due date. And, you know, how much kind of permeability Do you allow in your sort of, like, scaffolding of a student's experience, given given how well you know them outside of the context, I think that for me is like, the biggest dilemma of working in a space like this is, like, letting it let letting everybody be their whole full human self, while still kind of having rigor and right, like structure to the experience,

Zach Diamond  27:01  
right? I mean, I think that, that, that's an experience that I can relate with, I mean, I you know, some students come in there, maybe they have a fight at lunch, or maybe there was a fight at lunch, and they saw it, or maybe they broke up with their girlfriend or whatever, right? Sometimes kids come into class, and they're just like, not in the, in the space to be in the mental space to be learning. And we've talked about this on this podcast, because MCP is really good for dealing with that, you know, because sometimes the kid just needs to come into class and like, lay their head down on their desk for 10 minutes. And it's like, okay, you know, like, you're not going to miss anything. I'm not, like giving you a lecture here that you're going to only get to hear once in your life. And then it's over. Like, there's a video you can you can take a sec.

Carmen Welton  27:42  
Yeah, I mean, I think so at the beginning, we were talking about a little bit in the introduction, don't discount this conversation, because it's about independent schools, you know, benefit of the doubt. And I think, for me, like, what this conversation is underscoring is that at the end of the day teaching is teaching, and the modern classroom offers, like this sort of way of of structuring the classroom experience and scaffolding the students like learning that it doesn't matter what your context is, it, I feel like for me is at an independent school. At my independent school in particular, like, all perhaps all that has done is really highlighted for me how important how, like, really, just it like, if I were if I were to try to stop doing modern classrooms now, I don't think I could like, trust myself anymore. Like, I feel like I like I've seen how, like you were just describing, everybody sometimes just needs those 10 minutes. Yeah. And, like, I think especially if for me, like, often, when I think about my relationship to teaching, there's a before and an after COVID. Right. And I think like that, that has so and I know modern classrooms project started before. But there's something about how that shifted so much for so many people and how we perceive like, our relationship to time and to like community. And I think for the students that we're teaching right now, it has such a huge impact on their learning, and their access to learning. And that's true of everybody. And so, I really just think like, Yeah, there's definitely some some things that make independent school teaching very different. And yet, we're all kind of doing the same. We're like, somebody, some of us are doing backstrokes I'm also doing friends stroke, but we're all in same water.

Zach Diamond  29:41  
Sure, sure. I mean, that's a really good way of putting it. Because yeah, it's like, learning has become or there's I feel like there's more skepticism around school coming from students after the pandemic. Yes, you know, just sort of more like why why are we here kind of an attitude. Now That's my experience daily, you know, and it's like, and the quest they make they make me question that myself, you know, it's like, you know, why are we here? Do we need to be here? We did this from home, is this is this the right way? Like we're trying to pull back to normal now. But is this the right way? Are we doing this? Right? And I don't know, I guess that that's a universal experience. And I'm sure that many teachers who are listening will resonate with that. I hope they do. That's certainly been my experience. I'm wondering if you could speak to some of the disadvantages, because that was that was we mostly talked about, I guess, sort of like the advantages in this, and then the similarities. But what would you say are some disadvantages of working at an independent school? In terms of, I guess, modern classrooms? Or just in general?

Carmen Welton  30:44  
Yeah, I mean, so I think something, I think this is a good way to put in the like, I only know my own school, and I think did like the thing about independent schools is each one is so different from the next. But and that's like, the whole point of them. But I think for me, what something that's, that's hard about the modern classroom approach is, I think, I'm gonna be like, careful how I say this. But I think that there's a pretty strong perception at a school like the one I'm teaching at, which is a, you know, college prep, there's a lot of talk about sort of excellence. And there's a lot of expectations around grades, and about the college list, where kids are going to end up, et cetera, et cetera. Such that doing something really kind of out of the mainstream still, with your teaching is a little bit like, I feel like a little trepidatious about it. And that always like, like I get I'm fully supported by my administration. Like, they are like, Yes, this is, this is good. This seems great. You're getting really good feedback from your students keep going. But I also know that like, if, like, I also feel a lot of pressure to make sure it goes well, like I and I know everybody probably feels that too, in their teaching. But there's this sort of like mentality around what it means to teach. It's pretty traditional.

Zach Diamond  32:18  
I see. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Okay.

Carmen Welton  32:21  
And like, so it's probably true in a lot of schools, systems and situations. But there's definitely, I think, something about being in this like, kind of pre IV institution, right. Like,

Zach Diamond  32:35  
yeah. Okay. That's, that's, that's okay. This is really interesting. To me, I feel like this sort of is an interesting corollary to that skepticism coming from students that we were talking about. Because it's that skepticism when it comes from me, as I'm teaching in a modern classroom, it's like, the part of me that has internalized what good I'm putting scare quotes, right? What good teaching looks like, feels like I'm doing it wrong. It's like, is this the right way? Are we doing this? Is this right? Like, is this okay? Like, I'm just standing here? I'm not I'm not teaching quote unquote, right. And students will say that, you know, students will be like, I wish you would actually teach us, you know, yes. Yeah. And my response to that is like, I wouldn't say I wish you would actually learn, because they always do learn. But like, it's like, I want to say that, you know, it's like, it's not really about, it's not really about me, here, it's about you. But you're right, like, I feel that too, I feel that we're like, Am I doing is this wrong? Like, is this is this okay, but I think that we know, deep down that it is right, like it is it is not wrong, it is correct. It's right, because our students engage with the content more, you know, so deeply. Yeah, deeply. And, and also, just like, I'll get into really deep conversations with students in a one off kind of a way. And by the end of like, two weeks, I'll have done that with every one of my students, I'll have sat down for like, five or six minutes out of a 50 minute class period, to just like, talk deeply about something with a student in a very educational way. Right. And it's like, clearly, this is how it should be going. Yeah, but that's, that's an interesting sort of, like, perspective on that. I'm really enjoying this conversation is like, sort of like peeling back the curtain on this sort of like dichotomy between public and private schools, and just looking at what's common about both but the way that you plant it as a sort of like, pre Ivy League, you know, there's sort of like this pressure on you to teach in a way that encourages excellence, right? And excellence might not look like what we all sort of imagined excellence looking like so I really appreciate that sort of, I don't know that way of framing this topic. That's that's really interesting to me.

Carmen Welton  34:57  
Well, you know, and it's, I feel like it's a really urgent topic. Because right now I feel like something I see a lot in I don't know, like, Ed you education like, I don't know, articles and the, the sphere, right? Like, wherever you're looking and finding information about teaching these days, one of the things that keeps coming up is like how we're not necessarily preparing students really well for what they're gonna experience after high school, like post secondary, in high in college. Like, I think it's actually more and more like the modern classroom, right? Like, there's all this hybridization of the learning experience. And college professors are sort of like exploring these different ways of teaching. And, and also, then the workplace like how people are are experiencing working, has really shifted in the past, like, three, four years, right. And so the idea that, like, I should stand in front of my students and lecture at them, and they should take notes in this one kind of way. And that that's, that's good teaching. I don't think anybody's like saying like, yeah, of course, that's, that's the only way we should teach. And yet there is, like, you're saying that there's still this kind of like, we all have it sort of deeply ingrained in us that maybe that is the right way culturally ingrained. And as the kids haven't to, like, I definitely every now and then gets feedback from a student who's like, I think sometimes you should probably just, like stand up in front of the class and talk to us, right? And I'm like, like, Why do you think that I go, I really want to, like, explore that, you know? Yeah.

Zach Diamond  36:28  
You're right. It's, it's ingrained. It's ingrained, like, so deep, and, um, that it's ingrained in us too, which is why it feels sometimes wrong. You know, it's like, I should, but I love this. I mean, we could talk for hours about whether the traditional conception of excellence is actually excellent. Right? Like, or I guess, if academic excellence is really even the goal, if it should be the goal. Right, which, you know, is debatable. I'm not I don't I, you know, I'm not coming down on one side or the other right now. Because I feel like I have opinions on both sides. It's just a really complex topic. And I'm very happy that this, this, you know, topic of independent schools is sort of like, open to that can of worms to just even think about? Yeah, yeah, very, very interesting to think critically about that. Right. So listeners, we're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, comment, and I will talk a little bit more about implementing modern classrooms at an independent school.

Allison Vanterpool  37:27  
If you're ready to build a modern classroom, we have scholarships for you. We're offering a special invite only session for up to 200 educators and our April 3 to May 7 session. This opportunity includes fully funded tuition to our virtual mentorship program, which gives you one on one support as you create materials for your modern classroom. To apply, visit www.modernclassrooms.org/april by March 20.

Zach Diamond  37:59  
All right, so listeners, we're back with Carmen, we're going to talk more about teaching and implementing modern classrooms at an independent school. And we left off sort of talking, I asked you specifically about the disadvantages. And you mentioned that there were some specific challenges to implementing modern classrooms, at your school at an independent school. And I'm wondering if you could talk more about that, because in a lot of ways, I feel like the challenges we were talking about before were addressed by modern classrooms as the sort of solution. So I'm curious to hear what you would say are the challenges to implementing modern classrooms at your school?

Carmen Welton  38:38  
Yeah, I think I think what I was thinking about when we were when we were sort of going back and forth, was this idea of the, the fullness of relationships with students and how that can really challenge having, having classroom time be specifically about the sort of subject in the work that we're doing. Not that and I think that like, what a modern classroom allows for is the spaciousness to sometimes say, like, oh, I need to, I need 10 minutes, I need to like recenter. Myself, I need to take a little break. But I think that for me, like at my school, sometimes, I don't want to say that students take like, take advantage of that. But it's almost more that like, there's so much other stuff going on. Sometimes I ended up having, I don't know, for example, we just don't I think I've mentioned this, we're on spring break. Part of my job as a house parent, is to make sure all the students have all of the like logistics ready for leaving on spring break. Because you know, some of our students are going to Japan and some of them are going to France and some of them are going to New York City and we have to like make sure everybody's getting the right mode of transportation and the right time. And you know, I walk into Spanish class and students like Carmen Wait, can we talk about my plans for spring break is like Um, yes, actually, that's very urgent. And I do want to talk to you about that. But, but like right now, I want us to focus on the thing we're supposed to be doing. And I think like versions of that probably happen in all schools. But I think that there's this kind of, like the multiplicity of hats one wears that an independent school is something that independent school teachers talk a lot about, right? When you're, there's an expression triple threat that my school is not that but right, the idea that you are a house parent, you're a teacher, and you're a coach, right? You do all these things, you have all these points of contact with the students. And it's amazing, and it builds really strong relationships. And it can sometimes get in the way of doing the thing you're supposed to be doing in the moment. So I think that's one thing. And I think the other another challenge that I've encountered is, so what part of being at this very independent, independent school is that we don't have rules for the students about devices, we're not like a one to one Chromebook school or iPad school where every student has is like, issued the same device. Every student, actually, not every student even has a device necessarily that is their own. And that's for a lot of different reasons. And there's an expectation that everybody can access some sort of device should they need it, they can always check out like a Chromebook from the library, for example. But what that what it means is that in my classroom, I have, you know, one kid on a really nice tablet, and I have another student who only has their phone that day, and I have another student who's on a PC laptop, and trying to make sure that everybody is kind of having access to the content that I've put together for the modern classroom lesson. From this kind of wide variety of technology approaches. That's a real challenge. And I'm sure there's lots of schools that have similar situations to that. But I think it's more and more the case, at least my perception is, it's more and more the case that a lot of schools are going to like a one to one model where you can kind of every student, you can be sure has this one device, at least. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think like a lot of like, colleagues and friends who are in other schools, that's their, that's their situation. And so, you know, one thing that but I think, you know, anybody who can who can, like, empathize with what I'm describing of this kind of wide variety, it's, it really kind of poses a set of challenges in terms of like, having the students like, what are my expectations about what they're going to be able to accomplish in a class period. Also about like, you know, if a student if I, you know, if a student's device for the day is their phone, they can do a lot on their phone, but like, what if I don't want everybody to have their phone out, then is it equitable for me to say, like, Well, okay, you have, you can have your phone out, because that's your device for today. But this other person can't, because I think they're going to be distracted by it. And so it kind of raises these these dilemmas for me sometimes when, because I'm having this structure for my teaching that is very dependent on a device, right? Yeah, every activity not every lesson is, by any means. But enough of what we do, you know, they need to watch the video tutorial, they need to fill out, you know, I a lot of what I'm doing is on, like Google Suite, they're working on a document with me, they're posting on a discussion board, etc. Yeah, so that's, that's something that I've encountered is like, pretty challenging this year. And I in the past, it would have been challenging in a different way. But with modern classroom, I feel like that, that it hits differently.

Zach Diamond  43:48  
Yeah, this this is a common, I mean, we get emails to the podcast, when we used to do all the q&a episodes. It was it was a it was a question in every episode. You know, it was like, people have this have this challenge. And I guess like, a lot of people I don't my school is one to one with the Chromebooks. So I don't have to think about this at all. Except for the kids who come in with their Chromebook, you know, dead. Like, yeah, I gotta send them to tech and whatever. It is a bunch of a bunch of like, little weird little things constantly, you know. But I definitely feel like I'm, I'm I have the luxury of not having to worry about that. It is a it is a very common, like, how do you deal with this kind of thing? I mean, how do you deal with it? What What has been your sort of approach? Do you have anything that works? Do you have any tips?

Carmen Welton  44:34  
Yeah, I mean, I don't think I don't think I do yet. I think I'm still trying to figure it out. As I think what I'm trying to figure out is whether I want to have more rules, like I will accept this and I won't accept this. So if you don't have the things that are acceptable, you need to like go check out a Chromebook from the library, for example. If I want to be like flexible, like I think I have to sort of figure out which of which direction to go, because right now It doesn't feel great. This that piece feels messy feels really messy.

Zach Diamond  45:05  
Yeah, yeah, that's definitely a challenge. I, I don't have the answer either. So I actually want to go back to the other thing you were talking about. Yeah, probably get bogged down here. I mean, it was really interesting that that idea of having such close relationships and having so much overlap between like your, I guess your outside of class life, and then the kids coming into class, like, you're still the same people. And you mentioned before the break something about having a very human reaction, right, like reacting with humanity to a student who, who needs a minute, or who wants to ask you about their spring break plans, because you're like, that is actually important. It's almost like the model, the the modern classrooms model, it gives you too much flexibility. Like, I've had this experience as well, where sometimes kids will lose the sense of urgency that you want them to have about work, because they know that they can catch up later. Or maybe they're ahead, and they're like, I don't really want to work right now. And, and I'm like, Oh, well, let's see what lesson you're on. Oh, look, you're actually ahead of pace. And then what do I say, you know, unlike here, you could keep working on this other thing. You could do work for another class. I'm like, you know, I know some teachers are really good at like, coming up with other activities for them. But like, I don't know, personally, I find it challenging to motivate them when they're already ahead. And like, don't feel like working. It's like, I don't know, like you kind of earned a break. Maybe that makes me too lenient? You know, I don't know. And I can, I can understand what you're saying about this idea of like, the model giving you so much of that. So much of that sort of flexibility with the pacing, that kids lose that sense of urgency and want to talk to you about something that feels more urgent to them, like how they're going to get home for spring break. Right?

Carmen Welton  46:41  
Yeah. I mean, I think like, I that idea of leniency, I definitely think about that a lot. In for myself, I've always thought of myself as like a lenient or like relaxed teacher, I don't really care about deadlines. Like if a student needs an extension, I give them an extension, pretty much always. And the modern classroom has like really allowed me to, like, have that formalized into my teaching model, right, like I can, because it's just about it's their pay, they're on their own pace. And so there are these sort of moments of a hard, harder deadline, where I'm like, Okay, if the unit is ending, you need to submit things. But within that having so much flexibility is kind of how I've always wanted to operate anyways, because you never know what's going on outside of the classroom for someone or I do know, and I want to be able to give them that. And so, you know, I think like, that's, that's like a really powerful aspect of the modern classroom model. And I think like, I think there's like a tension, again, kind of going back to this idea of like, being at a school where there's this idea of like preparing for college. And that's like very much the focus, right? Like, that's always true in high school, I suppose in the United States, at least, there's this like, idea that high school is the step before college, right? For a lot of a lot of people, or before some sort of further education. And but at my school, it's like very, very much the focus, probably to a fault in a lot of instances. And so like having, having like having a model that allows me to like step away from all of those urgencies of like, I feel like in a traditional classroom, a lot of a lot of what happens is students are get very wound up with like grades and like, major assignments that they have to do. And that's I still, I still have students get worked up about that kind of stuff for me, as well. But there's, but there's less of it, and is less of it, because something like a mastery check feels like such lower stakes than if I called it a quiz. Right? Yeah, totally. Even though like functionally, it's the same thing. The way I'm administering it is like a state like two different students at different times, they can choose whether or not they take it. I mean, I have have students who like how, you know, they're ready to take it. I know they've done every single like activity in the lesson. And they could do it with their eyes closed, and they still won't because they're like, just it has to be perfect when I do it. And I'm like, Don't you like but this the whole point is that it doesn't have to be perfect and that you can like give it a shot and then come back and try it again later if it didn't go well because that's how we're that's how we're sort of like have a embracing an iterative process here. But there's, but there's sort of so like, I want to train like it's like it's like so deep to have this like the goal is the a plus. Always. And, and that's it's hard, it's hard. It's hard to it's hard to like If that mentality and I do feel like yeah, modern classroom, that's like, it's like helping me to start. I feel like it's like my own sort of little personal mission as a teacher and independent school to start chipping away at, like kids obsession with their grades.

Zach Diamond  50:13  
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it does. It does sort of train them to think more in terms of their progress and less in terms of like, am I going to get the best possible grade on this? Because it is it's chunked down into pieces. And like, the pieces are explicit, I think it's like, it matters how you frame it, you know, they're, they're doing probably more or less the same stuff that they were doing before you were using modern classrooms, right? Like, they're learning Spanish, they're taking quizzes, they're learning vocabulary. They're doing more or less the same thing. But the way that you frame it is not about the final grade anymore, and you're not grading maybe you are but like, the focus on each individual activity is no longer on the grade. It's about the actual learning the progress. And, and I find that to that's been my experience as well. And I guess it goes back to that conversation about excellence, right? Like, does excellence necessarily, and rigor right to these, you know, words that we throw around when we talk about good schools? And I'm, again, using square scare scare quotes, right? Like, when we talk about good schools, does that mean it produces schools who get the best possible grades? Is that? Is that what we're talking about? And I don't I'm asking that question rhetorically, not like I have an answer. Do are we talking about learning? Or are we talking about grades? Are they the same thing? Or are they not? I don't know.

Carmen Welton  51:28  
Oh, man, that's a whole nother conversation. Absolutely. And I think, you know, something that I would love to see my school and every school move toward is like, the mastery transcript, right? The idea that, like, instead of grades, this, the students are showing, like, proficiency and skills, and they're able to say, like, I can speak Spanish at this proficiency level. And I can, you know, build this kind of thing, using this kind of geometry, and whatever, right like that they have that it's something that's much more sort of practical in terms of assessing like what you're able to do, then, you know, what current transcript looks like most places, which is a bunch of letters that probably don't actually hold much meaning when it comes down to it. And so and I think that's true with every school, right? Like, there's, there's a lot of, like, what is an AE mean? I don't know, if it's your school, you guys do this practice. But every now and then in my department will like, have everybody grade the same piece of work?

Zach Diamond  52:29  
Yeah. See? I love that. I like that. Yeah.

Carmen Welton  52:34  
I like it. But it's also like, it's, it feels like a sort of, I don't know why, like, because because really like, what we want to be able to what we want our students to be able to do is, is as a task, right? We want them to be able to like, or to, like have a certain kind of knowledge or to be able to think critically and and engage with ideas. And those those letters don't communicate the ability to do that necessarily.

Zach Diamond  53:02  
Yeah, sorry, let me clarify what I was talking about that I like is rubric norming, like the teachers applying the same rubric not so much to see if we're giving the same grades. I think that those conversations are actually really interesting. And they they helped me whenever we do that, at my school, we do that sometimes, we use. So I teach at an IB school, and IB for all charter school. And so we use the NYP rubrics, I teach middle school. So I'm in the MYP of the IB. And it's like, we have we have these rubrics, you know, in the arts department. And they're just very vague. And so I find those conversations can be really valuable and like helping me to interpret these rubrics that are designed to be ambiguous and designed to be very opaque. And like, every teacher just sort of does them in their own way. But it helps me to see them in the way that other people are seeing them and to understand how I understand them. But I agree with you that, you know, grading everything in the same way. I think that what a transcript with a bunch of A's on it shows is that the student is really good at school. Yes. And that's great. They're good at school. I don't know what that means for their life beyond school. So yeah, let's let's leave that. Let's leave that topic for another episode of this podcast. And I know we're kind of running long. But there's one more question that I really do want to ask you, because you mentioned it in a bunch of our emails, which is that a specific advantage of working at an independent school is autonomy. And I'm really big on teacher autonomy as like an issue. I think it's really important. So I'd just love to hear you talk more about that. I guess in terms of modern classrooms, or just in general teaching it in independent school. What did you mean by that autonomy? How is that an advantage and how does that play out for you?

Carmen Welton  54:48  
Yeah, so I mean, what it means literally, for me, in my experience is that I know I'm not teaching to any particular test or set of standards. There's no My school doesn't do AP either. So like I really there's, there's no like no outside institution or body telling me what it is I should teach as language teacher, I am really just trying to get them to speak my language. And there we, you know, we do internally assess with like the, what's called the actual the, the foreign language standards in mind just to get a sense because that's like a sort of way of thinking about things, but I'm not. I'm not like trying to get my students to sort of a certain point in that. And so they tend to be really means that like I can, you know, I teach, like I said, before I teach level three, as I there's multiple sections of it, I teach to have other colleagues who teach other sections. And we're teaching it really differently. I don't have to, like align what I'm teaching with the colleague who's teaching it next door. We do talk, I mean, we are like, okay, so what topics are you covering, like, we like, make sure we're sort of covering the same ground. But I might teach this topic with, you know, a poem and he might teach it with a short story or a film. And I guess my point is, like, I think that's true in a lot of places. And there's like this, that's a sort of, like, literal kind of freedom, that then translates into a lot, a lot of other kinds of, like, feelings of freedom and autonomy as a teacher like, like the the decision to shift to the modern classroom structure, I think I didn't feel like I had to ask for permission, I didn't feel like I had to have it signed off by anybody else. I talked with a lot of people about it. I've like, spoken extensively with my, the head of my department. So I'm like, meeting regularly with the administration of the school. And you know, I talk to them about it all the time. They're excited, they're enthusiastic, they want to know more, but there's no sort of like sense. So just as I was saying earlier, I feel like maybe I sound like I'm contradicting myself, but I'm not, I don't think, like, even though I feel like sort of writ large, there's a sense of what it means to sort of teach well, in a independent school, and it's sort of this, to my mind, sort of old fashioned approach. I actually don't think very many teachers in my school are teaching that way, the sage on the stage has mostly fallen to the wayside. And people are doing a lot of innovative things in their classrooms. In my school, and I think a lot of independent schools, and obviously, all over the world, people are exploring different ways of teaching and learning. But I think I think the most, for me, the most important aspect of it is the not teaching to any particular set of standards, or tests, that there's this, like trust in Trust.

Zach Diamond  58:07  
Yeah, I was gonna use that word to,

Unknown Speaker  58:09  
yeah, that I that, like, I know what I'm doing. And I'm going to get my students to the place they should be, quote, unquote, through the methods that I deem appropriate and useful. And that's, it makes me feel like powerful as a teacher, to be able to do that, and to be able to move that way through my day. And it's also a lot more work. I think, by it like, in almost every way, it's an advantage. But I think this maybe a slight disadvantage is that like, then I end up creating a lot of stuff from scratch, and perhaps reinventing the wheel every now and then. Because when you're not teaching to a certain set of standards, or tests, you're not being given like, Okay, do it this way. And then sometimes you sit in there, oh, how should I? How should I structure this? What's the right order to do these ideas in when like, maybe that's actually been figured out? And I could just, oh, yeah, that is a good order. I should do it that way. So you know, but I think I also like I use a textbook. So my textbook does a lot of that scaffolding, that's very helpful. And I just have the autonomy to like pick and choose which pieces of the textbook we're going to focus on and center. And if there's pieces of it, that feel like they don't align with what my students need to learn or what their strengths and weaknesses are, I can like put that to the side and I can change it year to year and that's, that's cool. That's I really love that. I love and I think where it really comes into play is with my the electives I teach, where, you know, every couple years, I like invent a new class, and that's awesome. I get to like, kind of come up with a topic I'm interested in. I'll spend the summer researching it, putting together curriculum and then go and and the idea that I can do that and it doesn't have to be I match any kind of like, outside set of expectations about, you know, what my students should be learning at that at the level that they're at in the foreign language. That's pretty, that's pretty special. I think. And that's not the case a lot of independent schools that are teaching, for example, to the AP. So,

Zach Diamond  1:00:20  
sure, yeah, that that's a great answer. That's not what I was thinking of at all. And I appreciate I appreciate that.

Carmen Welton  1:00:27  
Now, what were you thinking? Well,

Zach Diamond  1:00:29  
I mean, you can see it in my in the question I wrote, right, like I, I was thinking, like, oversight from admin.

Carmen Welton  1:00:36  
Oh, yeah, I don't have any of that.

Zach Diamond  1:00:37  
Right. And I mean, but you the way you framed it more broadly, just in terms of like, not even oversight, necessarily, but like, just like, where are your classes even going? Right? Like, you have a sense of where you want your kids to be. But it's like, it's up to you. And I feel like the idea of trust, I was gonna use that word in responding to you, right? Like, I think that feeling trusted. And you said, it makes you feel empowered, right. Like how incredible you know, I feel like, it doesn't necessarily have to manifest in any way. Like, it's just the feeling of being able to do your job being a professional. And I love that. I think that that's amazing. I would hope that that would be a universal experience for teachers, I think it's probably not, which is unfortunate, because that is 100%. Like, where we should be, you know, like, we are the ones in the classrooms, teaching these kids. And I think like, you mentioned that the idea of the sage on the stage is sort of like, falling out of fashion in in actual practice, you know, and of course, there's the mantra, right, like, be the guide on the side, don't be this, the sage on the stage or, or things like that. I think that like any working teacher knows that, that that's, there's something wrong if you're standing up and lecturing for 15 minutes, right. Like, we all want something to be different. I think that even this idea of like this ingrained idea of what good teaching is, we all sort of like No, it's not. It's just so engrained. And so yeah, you know, I love that. I love that. The idea that this episode took that sort of that trajectory of like, how can we how can we sort of not fight but like, work against that and change that that ingrained? Norm that we all think about? What school is what good teaching is and what, you know, rigor and excellence mean? I don't know. I guess that that's a pretty fantastic place to close the episode, because it's a very positive note. And we've been we've been going for quite a while we've run pretty long. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I love that. I love everything about that. So thank you so much for joining me, Carmen. This has been absolutely fantastic.

Carmen Welton  1:02:50  
Yeah, thank you for this conversation. Yeah, it was making me it makes me think about so many more things that I have to go and continue to reflect on.

Zach Diamond  1:03:00  
Yeah, me too. And I hope it's been the same for the listeners. I started reflecting on this dichotomy between public and private schools. And I feel like that really led us into this sort of like discussion of what it all even means and I and I love that sometimes having these very philosophical and heady conversations can be interesting, and is a podcast after all, we're here to talk to each other. So thank you again for joining me, listeners. 

Remember, you can always email us at podcast@modernclassrooms.org. And you can find the show notes for this episode at podcast.modern classrooms.org/131. We will have this episode's recap and transcript uploaded to the modern classrooms blog on Friday. So be sure to check there or check back in the show notes for this episode if you'd like to access those. Thank you all for listening. Have a great week, and we will be back next Sunday. 

Thank you so much for listening. You can find links to topics and tools we discussed in our show notes for this episode. And remember, you can learn more about our work at www.modernclassrooms.org. And you can learn the essentials of our model through our free course at learn.modernclassrooms.org. You can follow us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram @modernclassproj. That's p r o j we are so appreciative of all you do for students in schools. Have a great week and we'll be back next Sunday with another episode of the Modern Classrooms Project podcast.