Zach Diamond  0:03  
welcome to the modern classrooms project podcast. Each week, we bring you discussions with educators on how they use blended, self paced and mastery based learning to better serve their students. We believe teachers learn best from each other, so this is our way of lifting up the voices of leaders and innovators in our community. This is the modern classrooms project podcast.

Toni Rose Deanon  0:29  
Hello and welcome to the modern classrooms project podcast. My name is Toni Rose Deanon, they them pronouns, a designated hype person here at MCP, and I am joined by a high school teacher from the Bronx. Ernest Rodriguez, welcome Ernest.

Ernest Rodriguez  0:43  
Thank you, Toni.

Toni Rose Deanon  0:45  
It's really exciting to be in this space with you. And thank you so much for saying yes to the podcast. And I know that you and I have been talking about this podcast for a while now, so it's kind of, you know, long overdue, and you have such a great topic that we're going to be talking about, which is learned helplessness. And it is a topic that a lot of our implementers, our early implementers have have brought up because of just the concerns of learned helplessness, right? So before we get started and diving into that topic, what is bringing you joy currently,

Ernest Rodriguez  1:16  
Toni, what's bringing me joy recently is I recently got into, like, hot yoga. Recently, my sister brought me to one, and I always was like, I don't know about yoga is my thing, and I've done it, and it's been, like, really nice. I've been doing it, like, every week with my fiance, and it's nice to just kind of calm your nerves and just take a second and like, you know, thank yourself for doing these, these things, and just taking a moment to breathe.

Toni Rose Deanon  1:40  
Oh, that's so lovely. My best friend also picked up hot yoga and has been getting, you know, has been trying to get me to do it, and I just can't. I love yoga. Hot Yoga, y'all can keep that that is a whole new level for me that I will gladly say no to. So I'm glad you're doing that for your mental health. We need to, we need to create those places for us.

Ernest Rodriguez  2:02  
Yeah, you know, at first, it was tough for me. At first, I was like, I have no idea what, because I didn't do yoga before. But once you, like, get the rhythm of it and just focus on, like, you know, just learning it like it's, it's fun. Can be fun? 

Toni Rose Deanon  2:14  
Yeah, I can, I can imagine earnest, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna let y'all have the fun. Um, okay, well, so tell us more about who you are and how you started your MCP journey, your education journey, really, whatever journey you want to talk about. 

Ernest Rodriguez  2:30  
Sure, yeah. So, as you know, mentioned before, I'm a high school teacher. I was born and raised in the Bronx. I started my journey with psychology, like I was really interested in how the mind worked, and I wanted to study that a little bit more. And I transitioned into teaching because I just found the love of like being able to talk about and educate others about certain things. I started my modern classrooms journey last summer while listening to a podcast Jay Shetty, he's like a mental wellness podcast. And within the podcast, I heard an ad talking about the modern classrooms, and I instantly got hooked. I took the online course days prior to the school. It was like in August, and I took the online course, and I just jumped in. And that was really exciting. And I haven't gone back ever since.

Toni Rose Deanon  3:22  
Okay, so, Jay Shetty, that that's what you said, right? 

Ernest Rodriguez  3:25  
Jay Shetty, yeah, 

Toni Rose Deanon  3:27  
okay, I'm gonna have to look that up, because I didn't even know that we were doing that. So that's really dope. And I love hearing from folks about where they heard about us. So that's again, thank you for sharing that. And I also want to point out too, like going from psychology to education, I'm sure your psychology background really helped a lot with how you navigate relationships with students, right?

Ernest Rodriguez  3:52  
Yes, yes. I constantly, am always thinking about like, you know, um, the the learning process, you know, and how sometimes I like, look at the classroom through the lens of a teacher, but also through the lens of a psychologist, like, in the sense of like, you know, there are days where a student has so many issues going on, like, mentally or like, psychologically, that you kind of have to put like, the teacher mode aside and just like, be there to support that student, or just be like, All right, listen, hey, I know you're having a bad day. You can put your head down. We can always start tomorrow, you know, or we can start in a couple minutes. So I definitely have been able to use that to my advantage in the classroom, 

Toni Rose Deanon  4:31  
yeah. And I was also going to say too, you know how there were talking more and more about social emotional learning, right? Which rightfully so. We definitely should have conversations about that. We should definitely have lessons about that. And I'm also curious as to your thought process of you know, like educators who are hesitant to do that work because they say, like, No, I'm here to teach. Like, how could what? What would be like a good. Wording, or even like a maybe a push or a challenge for teachers who think that social, emotional learning has no place in the classroom, I put you on the spot, Ernest, so I'm apologies. I'm just so curious, you know, I'm curious as to what you would say. 

Ernest Rodriguez  5:20  
Yeah, okay, I would say to educators that I think we've all had that student that is having a bad day, right, and or maybe the student that is disengaged, or maybe the student that you know has, you know, like issues staying still and just taking a moment to think like, okay, there's, there's a solution to every problem, right? That's something that I've always thought like this. So every problem is always a solution. And that is a way to kind of, you know, sometimes you have to step away from the content for a bit and just it's hard to learn from someone you don't like. I always thought about that like, it's hard to be a teacher for someone that if they don't like, they're not gonna wanna listen to you. They're, you know. And my first couple years teaching, it was like that, like I was very strict and stern and, you know, buy the book as they teach you in teacher boot camp. But I've learned that over the years that you have to kind of see students like as you know, as learners and as people you know, and not just you know, content,

Toni Rose Deanon  6:21  
no, no. That was no. That was great, right? You were just saying how we don't want to see students just as students, they're a whole human being. And this got me thinking too, Ernest, as adults, if some, if one, if we're unwell, if we're mentally and emotionally unwell, we also show up in a way where it also impacts the students mental and emotional health, right? And so it's like, how can we not make room for social, emotional well being when that is a part of us? We can't just take that away. I mean, of course, there's compartmentalizing, right? Which is a really, I don't want to say dope coping mechanism. It's a it's a mechanism, right? But ultimately, our emotions still show up. It's either, you know, anger, frustration, annoyance, hurt, sad, right? Disappointed, like all of these emotions show up as adults, as educators, especially with all of the expectations that we have. And so it's like, for me, I'm like, How can we not have this conversation? We too are human beings, right? Like we too are not just teachers. We also are full of emotions, and we also need to be taken care of. So social, emotional, well, being in my head is for everyone and not just for kids.

Ernest Rodriguez  7:44  
Oh, I 100% agree. And that makes me think about like, this push that we have in the education for social emotional learning. But in my experience, I don't think there's enough of it. Like, where like we there's this social emotional learning, is these buzz words, you know, that are sent out in the classrooms, but we never are given the time to have that social emotional learning, you know, like, so that's like, sometimes I do like meditation points in the beginning of class. Or we've had this big push called brain power at my school where students like stretch and like do, like different mental exercises and like physical exercises, because, you know, the body affects how you feel in terms of how you learn. So that's something that my school is currently doing that I really think is important, 

Toni Rose Deanon  8:27  
and this is a really good point too, of like, Hey, we're pushing out these quote, unquote initiatives, right? Here's social, emotional learning lessons, right? Here some some things to embed into your curriculum, but then we don't provide that time and opportunity for teachers to play and explore and make sure that it feels good for them and that they are also they also have the emotional and like intelligence to be able to create a space for that for students, right? So I really like that you pointed out, like, yes, people are pushing for this, and we have to have proper support, so that our teachers feel supported and empowered to create time and space for our learners to talk about emotions, to talk about social emotional you know, well being in the classroom and so thank you for letting me pick your brain on that a little bit, because I'm finding Psychology really does play, or just how our brains work and how we function with emotions, right? Like, it really does play a huge role in the spaces that we show up in, and that and that we are, like, seen as a facilitator or the leader, right? Um, and I always say, like, our moods really impact other people. If we're excited, they are excited. If we are mad, they get mad. And so it's really interesting how all of that is very much transferable, and we don't talk about it. So, you know, listeners are probably like, Okay, this is psychology. I was here to learn about learned helplessness, and I want to talk about this topic. And I said, and. In my head, I'm like, there's, there's a connection though, right? Like, there's an alignment here with like, psychology and learned helplessness. So these two words I've seen thrown around in so many spaces that I'm in, but it's also, but there are also other words that people use, not learned helplessness. For the people who don't know what it is like, they use other words, and I know that they're talking about learned helplessness. So for listeners, and just so that we're grounded to be on the same page, to align. Like, how would you define learned helplessness? What does the sound look feel like in your classroom?

Ernest Rodriguez  10:40  
Yeah. So like, if you like Google, learn helplessness, you'll see, like the definition is, it's a psychological state in which an individual, after repeated exposure to uncontrollable negative events, believes they're powerless to change their situation, right? Even when opportunities do so, to do so arise, as we know one of the purposes of the model of the modern classroom is to assess student understanding of a given topic, right, and advance them when they have demonstrated mastery. Our students are not used to that they're they're just not they're not used to actually kind of sitting down with the content and understanding it. They're mostly used to doing an assignment and then never looking back on it again, right? So when I tell students, like, Hey, you have to revise, some of them get frustrated because, you know, they believe they feel like, Oh, well, I did the assignment, so I should begin my grade and I can move on. Right? And while I have a few students that understand that a good chunk of my students, they roll their eyes whenever they see the big bold letters on the Progress Tracker revise next to their name. And I don't blame them, right? This is, like we mentioned, not what they're used to. They're once again, they're doing an assignment, they're seeing the grade and shoving in their backpack and moving on. My goal this year, though, was to kind of change that mindset in my students and have them truly understand that the importance of revision in the classroom is to show them it's okay to revise an assignment, right? It's okay to kind of fail, but like learned from your failure, you know, and I define learned helplessness in my classroom as students receiving the answers to something without putting in the work. And it occurs, you know, when students believe like they have no control over their success, right? And whether that is that is shown in the classroom, like disengagement or low motivation, these are all examples of how I see learn helplessness in my classroom.

Toni Rose Deanon  12:39  
So Ernest, I want you to repeat that definition from Google again, because I don't think I've ever heard it and that way that just like, Okay, let's Yeah, let's just say it one more time for me, please. 

Ernest Rodriguez  12:49  
So yeah, a Google definition for learned helplessness is it's a psychological state in which an individual, after repeated exposure to uncontrollable negative events, believes they are powerless to change their situation, even when opportunities to do so arise.

Toni Rose Deanon  13:05  
Okay, so the words that popped up for me, right, repeatable, negative, right, like and this makes me think about just the system itself, right? The system is broken. We know that it is a system that has not helped a lot of our kids, and mainly our black and brown kids, right? And so there's no real blame, like, I don't want to blame people for learned helplessness, right? It is just a system that we are in, and it takes, I want to say only one adult to change that trajectory, right for for kids, and I think we need to have a lot of patience, because if you're teaching high school, they've had multiple years of repeated, like, negative impact, or, like, you know what? At this point, I'm powerless. I don't know what else to do, and I know that if I just ask you three times mute, and then I'll do it one more time, you're gonna get tired of me, and I'm gonna get the answer that you want me to have, right?

Ernest Rodriguez  14:14  
You took the words right out of my mouth. Honestly, I if from my for the educators, like, you know, like when you're taking a test, when students are taking a test and they ask, Mr. Or Miss, what does this question mean? There's a little bit of them kind of trying to see if you're able to say the answer without saying the answer. So I 100% agree with that. 

Toni Rose Deanon  14:35  
And I also really liked how you pointed out to Ernest that you said low motivation is learned helplessness, right? What were the other two that you mentioned as well? Because that was the thing that like brought up. Like came up for me because, again, we hear all the time, oh, our learners are not motivated. They don't care to do the work.

Ernest Rodriguez  14:58  
Yeah, I just see. Like in my classroom, when students, like, they believe they have no control over their success, right? And as you mentioned, a lot of it is, a lot, in my experience has been like black and brown kids and students of color because they feel like they've gotten like grades, like F's over, F's over, F's or fail over, fail over, fail no matter how hard they tried, right? And so like, you have to also consider, like, the other factors that affect their lives and the privileges that they don't have versus other people, and how teachers hadn't maybe considered that at that point in time, and so they just kind of became numb to it. And eventually, as you mentioned, they're in high school now, so they've kind of gone through this year after year after year, and eventually, as learn helplessness is it's disengagement. It looks like disengagement, right? It looks like low motivation. But in my experience, especially this year, in my class, like I've I've pushed those students, right, and the modern classroom has kind of helped me with that, like letting the students, the High Flyers go, and me kind of working with those students that really need that push, you know, and I've seen that even those students with low disengagement, when you just keep pushing and pushing and pushing, eventually, like, okay, they're gonna come to me, um, I have to master this content to get the grade. Because it's, it's and it's hard. It's not, it's not, it's not an easy thing for the student or the teacher. And I definitely want to commend like that, that work that our teachers are doing out there,

Toni Rose Deanon  16:26  
right? And, I mean, you know, when you're saying, like, you want to push and push and push, right? I think for me, what came up was that there's the consistency, like, you're going to consistently check in on them to make sure they're okay, first of all, and then second of all, it's like, also, you're creating this high expectations, right? Like you may not have gotten it the first time, you may not have gotten it the second time or the third time, but guess what? I'm still here. I'm not going to give up on you. I'm not going to say, Oh, well, you failed, and then we're just going to keep going, right? So it's this whole and I think, like you said, it's very jarring for students who have never had that experience before. And when I talk to educators earnest, I always say, right, like kids are going to push back because they're so used to you telling them what to do, that's that's it, right? Like we as educators also have to take a step back and say, like, what am I doing that exacerbates or like increases learn to be or enhance like pushes for learned helplessness, too, right? And I also understand, I'm not saying it's all teachers fault, right? I do know that teachers are overwhelmed, underpaid, tired, stressed, all of these things, right? So that all comes into play when it when we're thinking about providing opportunities for students to revise, because I think sometimes too Right, like, as an educator, I would get frustrated. I'd be like, Why can't you just get this right? And that those words would come out, and then I would feel so bad for those words coming out. Like, okay, I am part of the problem, because I just want my kid to I want the best for them, but I'm not communicating it in a way that is a positive impact that has a positive impact, you know? And so, like the whole autonomy, right? Teachers don't have autonomy. Students now also don't have autonomy. And so when we start implementing this model of blended self pacing, right, and mastery, it's just like a big, holy cow, what is happening? All alarms are going off. I don't want to do this. I can't believe that you're making me do this, right? And I think that's just part of the process. It's part of the change too, right? Like people are going to resist change, and that just means they're paying attention. And so, you know, you and I were talking about this, this topic, potentially, because you're like, Hey, I'm going through it. I'm going through it this year. I want to record maybe in the spring, so that we I have more experience of how I'm really motivating and getting my students engaged. And like you said, it's just a lot of push and pull, push and pull, push and pull. But you have not given up on your kids, and I think they they are seeing that now, right? Um, and this reminds me of my time in Baltimore City, where my students haven't had teachers for the past two years, and they didn't trust me, so it makes sense. So they were just like, No, I don't care what you have to say. I don't care what you know. Like, I really had to get to know my students and gain their trust before I could even cover the content. So it all aligns. All of it aligns, right? And so let's, let's talk about revisions, though. Because again, there's a lot of connotation, negative connotation when it comes to revision. Because again, as a society, we really love perfection, and we don't celebrate mistakes enough or at all. And like you said, with mistakes, those are lesson learned. It's not losses, it's lessons right? So how did you you know students tend to have a lot of feelings about having to revise, like you said, like. They would groan. They would be like, Man, no, I want to do that right. And understandably so, because, you know, we talked about earlier as well, like time, we need to provide students time also to revise. Because I know, in my own practice, before modern classroom, I just said, revise on your own time, as if they had their own time to do that right, as if they could actually prioritize the revisions over everything else that's happening in their life. And so we tend to really like force it on them with little to no respect, no support, and then expect them to do so in their own time, like I said. And so how has MCP helped with your revision process and impact on student growth. Because you did say, like, modern classrooms helped with this a lot, actually. 

Ernest Rodriguez  20:45  
So, yeah, so kind of like talking about what you mentioned earlier, when we talked about, like, many of our students are used to just doing an assignment for the grade, right? And when they see in my classroom, they can receive the grade if they don't internally master it or demonstrate mastery, frustrations arise in in few of them, right? And that can be kind of looking like this engagement, or they put their head down, or like, Mr. I don't want to do it today. Some, some of them might just say, I give up, or Mr. I don't get it. I watched the video several times, but it doesn't make sense. However, I noticed that once I sit down with them for small group, or one on one instruction, like we're usually able to to reach mastery, whether it's kind of just breaking down the the videos or the lessons in my biology class, the times there and there are, there are times where we don't right. There are times where we don't achieve mastery that day, and usually that means that maybe the student has to come back to the lesson right at another time, because, as we talked about, it can be mentally draining for students, right, to revise and have to revise again, and especially when they do a master check and they revise and then they have to revise another time. I understand. And sometimes we that's like, we go back the next day, right? Or maybe we skip the lesson for now and come back at a later time, if it's something that isn't too foundational, but that's something that I've kind of just kind of been working on, like we mentioned before, like the psychological state of our students is something to keep in mind, and how that can affect, you know, their progress in the class. So I think also just kind of like, like you mentioned, like reframing the idea of failure in the classroom, you know, and kind of saying, like, Okay, we, you know, well, we didn't, instead of saying you got it wrong, saying like, Okay, well, let's try to you didn't get necessarily get it this time, but let's try to work on getting it the next time.

Toni Rose Deanon  22:34  
Yeah, and like, opportunities for error analysis too, right? This is where critical thinking skills come in. This is where asking questions come in as well. And you know, I'm thinking about psychological safety, right in the classroom, of what kind of learning environment do you want to create for your students? Do you want a an environment where students are surviving, or do you want students who are thriving in the situation? Right? And so when you're thinking about, you know, you said all of these things. I don't get it. I didn't, you know, I give up. It doesn't make sense. I feel like those are words that all of our teachers, all educators, have heard at one point or over and over and over again, right? And I think a lot of the times we translate that to kids don't care, right? And every time I hear like kids don't care about this, kids don't want to do this, my heart breaks a little bit because a they do care. It's fear that's coming up for them. They don't want to be laughed at for getting something wrong. They don't want to be looked at as a failure if they don't get it right the first time. They have already created narratives in their head that they're not going to get it anyway, so they might as well not try. And they've never been really successful. So why try now? Right? So like, all of these things are coming up for me when people say all the time, like, the kids don't care. They don't. They just, they just don't care. How can we, like, rephrase that? Because I think people are really quick to say, the kids don't care. And I know that there's apathy, right? Like, apathy is just like, right? And I can only imagine, because I haven't been in the classroom after COVID, so I can only imagine, right? I don't want to invalidate the statements that educators are saying, because I'm not in their space, but I am curious, because you are in the classroom and you're getting these, you know, resistance, you're getting comments like this, and then you see, oh, wait a minute, the small groups, me just sitting with them, validating them, making them feel good about themselves, increasing their confidence, right? Going over it with them as often as they need to, and also understanding if you need a break. Okay, cool, take a break, right? How are you creating that? Because I know also earnest, like in the beginning, you were also. Frustrated? 

Ernest Rodriguez  25:01  
Yeah, I was it was not easy last year, getting through, like, the modern classroom and all the small steps, and also having to get through the students that were also learning the the model with me. So I understand that, but I think to kind of talk about what you mentioned early in relation to like, how do we like, adjust that mindset is we have to. And I've been like reading about like, our paradigms, like, basically our beliefs, our deep beliefs that we have can affect, like, how we see the classroom. We're talking about learn helplessness with our students. But there's also learn helplessness with teachers, in the sense that you know, like, they believe that students, like you mentioned, like, a student doesn't want to do it right, and they'd really okay, it's out of my control. I did my best. The student is, it's, it's, it's up to the student. And I think that that's something that we have to kind of dig deep into, like, and you know that can happen like, also, like, when we're talking to other teachers and like, oh, this student doesn't learn. Oh, yeah, you're right. The student doesn't learn. I think shifting that and also diving deep into ourselves and our intentions in the classroom will help, kind of, it'll subconsciously alleviate some of the ideas that we have about students, you know, like, let's say Billy, or something like, oh, Billy can't, you know, he can't do anything in math, or he doesn't understand how to do the project in math, and another teacher might hear that and may inherently create, like, a self help, right? Yeah, Billy is built. That's Billy. Doesn't know how to disengage, but I have a student like that this year. I have a Billy, and I work with him, and he's able to do it in my in biology class, and it's hard for him to sit down, and hard for him to like, kind of concentrate, but just kind of shifting my my deeper paradigms, and just kind of saying, All right, well, I can do it. I can change his perspective. And it's slowly and surely been working still kind of crack, trying to crack that shell

Toni Rose Deanon  26:57  
that's a lot of adjusting for you, right? Because, like you said, it was very frustrating implementing the model for you and having to do all of these things while also keeping your students engaged, right? So, you know, you you brought up the book and all of our beliefs and our values, it shows up, y'all, and something that I've learned is that we actually our values and our beliefs stem from us being like nine years old, like it is embedded deep into us, right? And I think the reminder too that you said that when other adults in the school building say things right, like you said, Folks inherently, subconsciously tuck that away, and then when they have the kid, they're like, Oh, well, they can't do A, B, C, D, they're already, you know, having these problems or whatever. And I think that's kind of where I also, when I was teaching earnest, I don't know if I should say this, but I didn't really want to read the IEPs of students, because I was like, I don't want to go in there with my bias already and thinking they can't do A, B, C, D, right? So, and then, like, of course, like, teachers from the previous year would say, like, oh, so and so they don't know how to act right, like they're going to be so bad in your class. And I didn't want, I didn't want that to be the thing, right? So I just had to, like, really be mindful. Be mindful of, like, Okay, you're saying that, that this child was awful. But I also didn't want to be that teacher that says, well, in my class, they were, they're good, you know? Because there are some teachers who do that too, who don't believe that. Like, this kid is acting out because they're so great in the classroom, in their class, and so I think the learned helplessness, you're right, it's also with adults. Because now, as I think back when I was mentoring for modern classrooms and working with educators, there were a lot of frustrations, there were a lot of pushback. There were a lot of like, I don't want to do this. This doesn't make any sense. Show me something that you know specifically to this grade level, at you know, this unit, this curriculum, right? And I didn't see that. I saw that as resistance. First of all, which makes sense, but it's also, again, like learned helplessness, right? Because, again, we're not teachers have repeatedly also felt and experienced negative impacts in their practice, so they are also quick to say, Nah, I'm not gonna try that.

Ernest Rodriguez  29:35  
Yeah, yeah, especially with like, experienced teachers, and you know, they've kind of got, like, their rhythm going, they've got their flow going. They've they've got kind of, like, with students, they've gone through the years of them trying. And it's, it's, it's not to, like, condemn them, you know, it's, can be a lot going through this year after year, trying different things and kind of feeling like. Are powerless to it, you know, to it all. I see that a lot with like, students and parents, you know, like a lot of students feel like, oh, their parents. They don't care, you know, or they and but then I call those parents and they do care, and then they're like, Oh, my student, my child did what? Like, oh no. Like, when they come and I'm gonna have a talk with them, so I think, and but that's because that parent is doing something, you know, and they have their own things that's going on with their lives. And so these are, like, I don't want to say excuses, but like, things that can lead to that learned helplessness. And our teachers, you know, over time,

Toni Rose Deanon  30:37  
yeah, I mean, again, it's really just quick to blame other people. It's, I feel like it's human nature for us to blame other people, as opposed to looking deep into our being and then realizing, oh my goodness, I'm actually part of the problem. That's really hard to swallow. Earnest, I have to say, like when I learned that I was a big part of the problem, I was like, Oh no, can't be. 

Ernest Rodriguez  30:59  
That's part of the growth, you know? It's part of, like, looking deep into ourselves and seeing, like, yeah, I feel that too. I struggle with that a little bit too. Like, kind of like, Oh, I thought I was doing everything perfectly, but, but then you start to feel like, it's good. It's a good it's healthy to, like, say, like, I have, you know, I have this really great quote that I think about, I forgot where I read it, but it says that my my weaknesses leave room for the strength of others.

Toni Rose Deanon  31:29  
That's good, 

Ernest Rodriguez  31:31  
yeah. And so that makes me think, like, you know, like it's it's okay to not be good at things. It allows room for others and allows you to learn. And say that you know, like, we're always growing, right? Educators always hear that, you know, like you're always learning to this day, you know. And I think it's, it still holds true. 

Toni Rose Deanon  31:47  
Oh my gosh, this is such a great conversation artist. I'm like, Oh, we could talk about mental health, we could talk about all because it really just ties into learned helplessness. It really does tie in. It's all emotions behind that. It's all like there's so much fear for all parties involved, right? Like parents and caregivers and families are afraid of being seen as neglectful, and then teachers are afraid of being seen as not doing their job ineffective, and then students are afraid of being seen as failure. So, like, there's just so much fear that people just say, instead of this is fear, it's learned helplessness, right? Like it's that they just don't care. Okay, you're giving me so much to think about. I feel like my brain is is exploding, not even expanding, like just exploding at this point.

Zach Diamond  32:38  
Hey there, listeners. This is Zach with one announcement for you this week. Tr, this very podcast, co host and Lauren Kimlinger, MCP implementer and DMCE are presenting on inside out a joyful journey of learning and growth at Oregon Early Learning Conference from April 16 to 18th in Portland, Oregon. If you're attending, please make sure to drop by and say hi, check out the presentation. And that's it. Let's get back into it with Toni Rose and Ernest.

Toni Rose Deanon  33:10  
Okay, so you know you mentioned about student mindset, right? Like shifting it, adjusting it, changing student mindset about revision, specifically, because in this model we have, like, revisions are part of it, like you have to revise. We're no longer just one and done. You're gonna go back and actually relearn and learn and learn, right? So what have you done so far in your classes with your students saying, I don't get it, I don't want to do that, huffing and puffing and groaning. What have you done that that you found successful? Because I'm sure listeners are like, I need help. I need help with this. 

Ernest Rodriguez  33:45  
Yeah. So I guess, like, apart from, like, what we've mentioned already with, you know, kind of just sometimes giving them a break, or just having them put their head letting them put their head down for like, a couple minutes, sometimes it's really bad you let them put their head down for the period. That's the beauty of the modern classroom, is it's okay if they miss a lesson or a day, because they can always make it up or make it up at home. Some things I do in the classroom is when students have to revise, they have a few options they can complete, like an Edpuzzle practice video that we do together during small group, or maybe sometimes just pull a couple students that I see that are struggling, and we'll do some small group instruction together. I took this from another educator. In your podcast, they mentioned something called tour guides. And I think that was really, really cool and neat. Like, dedicated students who, like, are ahead of pace. So if I can see the tracker like, these are students that are ahead of pace. I have them. I know I can depend on them to sit with students that are kind of struggling with revision. And it's just, it's magnificent when I hear students in the background, just like, kind of talking to each other and just, kind of just learning together. So these are like ways that I've kind of like, you know, pushed and kind of also being kinder with the students about revision and telling them that it's, it's okay to, you know, you. Revise. You know, it's okay to take your time, and everyone learns at different paces. You know, I have students do a daily check in every day. Kind of take it from the tracker, and the daily check in is just a reminder that, you know, like, it's okay, that you know whatever lesson you're on, and they always have, like, a little section to where they share, like, how they're feeling, and that kind of helps me maneuver the classroom. And know, like, all right, well, if the student has to revise that day, but they say, Oh, I'm not having a good day, like, I'm going to approach that differently, versus students like, Oh, I'm having a good day, but they have to revise, you know, because sometimes revision can, like, it can make for their day worse, you know, like, I have to go again, or all my friends are moving up, or this is going to bring me behind. So just approaching it like it's in different ways depending on the student it's it's a very like complicated when I say it out loud,

Toni Rose Deanon  35:48  
no, it's not complicated at all. Ernest, this is actually beautiful because you're providing options. There are options to revise. And I think the biggest thing that I'm also taking away from this is that you're doing it in community with your other peers. You're not doing it by yourself, so you have your tour guides who are helping you right? Because I always say learning is so much more fun with others. And when we isolate students and we isolate ourselves from learning, we actually don't contain that information as much. But when we have interactions and conversations and discussions, those things actually stick in our brains longer, right? And so I think, like you said, I love the whole concept of doing it in community, doing it with community, so you don't actually feel alone. You don't feel like you're the only one in this. You know, you're the only one who's behind pace, you're the only one who's not getting this. It's like, no, there are other people who are doing it as well, right? So I think this piece is also where we highlight, like, the organic collaboration that happens in a modern classroom of folks, of our learners, really creating this community of revision and the community of learning together. And, you know, the reminder of being kinder is also, I think we need that every hour, like our a lot, like our phones just need to say, Be kinder, and not just to other, like, not just for kids, but also to ourselves, right? Like, hey, this lesson didn't go out. It didn't turn out well. Or this, you know, this unit didn't turn out well, that's okay. We really tried our best, right? And sometimes our best is not really our best, and that's also okay. So I think this is a great reminder for for listeners to think about, how can we make this into a community task, as opposed to it being an individual task. And I already can hear a question that's going to be asked is, but it's mastery checks. They're revising, right? Shouldn't they be doing this by themselves? Like, why are they working with other people? 

Ernest Rodriguez  37:55  
I think to answer that question is, the mastery check is, is? Was the purpose of the master check? Right? To assess understanding. And I think if students are able to talk about it or explain it to each other, that's why sometimes, like, you know, we have different learners. We have, you know, learners that may have trouble writing it out, like I have students, honestly, I can't write it out, but I can say it, you know. And just kind of leaving options for the students, like, keeping it open, I think keeping it like, like, tunneled, like that might make feel students like, restricted, you know, and kind of mentioning the autonomy from before and like, having a collaborative space is a good thing because they're talking about it. They're they're having conversations with their peers. And you know, when they have an exam, or if they're in New York, you have to take a regions, then hopefully those conversations do come back right? When you're focusing on just a mastery base, you're kind of teaching to the test, right? We always say, like, we want to move away from teaching to the test. So I'm all for, like, having conversations and kind of collaborating and having different ways to assess mastery, even though most of the time, for me, it's the mastery based slip, because that's the most effective way. But there are other alternatives, depending on, you know, the student, and, you know, their mood and all the other factors we mentioned before,

Toni Rose Deanon  39:09  
right? And I think, you know, something that came up for me when you were talking was like, Oh my gosh, there's so many options, right? Like, how do I keep my sanity as an educator when all of those options are there? And I always want to say, like, because you are freed up, you're not lecturing, you are able to provide those options. And I know that it may seem daunting or like impossible, but when I like, Y'all, when I tell you that, when I switch to instructional videos, right, and I don't have to be in the front of the classroom, I was able to do so many things. If a kid was like, Can I just tell you, yes, you can just tell me, Oh, well, can I do this instead? Yes, you can just do that instead. This didn't make any sense to me. I want to create something that does make sense to me. Beautiful. Go for it, because I have the time, I have the energy, I have the capacity to be able to say yes to kids and not necessarily. Me be so stressed out because I'm trying to get everyone to do the same thing at once, right? So I Yes, I love the options. I love the choices.

Ernest Rodriguez  40:10  
Yeah, I love that you mentioned that took me back to when I used to teach Traditionally, it feels like you're on a railroad and like you're on a training you're, like, 60 miles per hour, and it's hard to, like, stop at all at any point in time, like, you have your destination, but like, when you're in a modern classroom setting, it's like, like you said, you're able to be a little bit more, like, all right, like, listen to your kids and the needs. So I definitely felt that,

Toni Rose Deanon  40:31  
yeah, yeah. It's like, oh, I need to take a stop here. Okay? I'll just stroll on over there. You know, like, I have, again, the capacity to make all of these stops and not feel so stressed out. So thank you for getting me to think of all of these things in my head. You know, we we talked about failure already and how that definitely has a negative connotation to the word, and a lot of negative emotions, right? Because, again, emotions, learned helplessness, emotions, all of those things, even as adults, when we think we've failed, I know my body like freezes. My body is like, holy cow, I failed. I did not reach that goal. That sucks, right? So how do you approach students who have yet to master the content, like you said, right? There's breaks, because a lot of the times it takes, it could take students multiple tries to get to where you want them to go, right? So then, how do you kind of guide them through that process, to make sure that they don't shut down, to make sure that they don't disengage and that they don't give up? 

Ernest Rodriguez  41:37  
That's something that I struggled with a lot in the beginning of last year, and even in the beginning of this year, like telling students that they failed a master check, right? And I don't straight up tell them that, like, you failed a master check, but when a student sees revision, they immediately ask me, like, Mr. Like, so did I fail? Like? They asked me, like, oh, so Mr. Did I fail the master check? And I think, like another quick Google search just kind of says, like, the meaning of failure is to be unsuccessful in one's goals and not to answer that kid's question on whether or not they feel that that master check, we have to understand first, what was the child's goal, right? Was it truly to understand the content, or was it just to, you know, complete the assignment and move on. And the unfortunate reality is that for some of my students, and, you know, students in general, it seems to be the latter, right? They're just, they're just achieving, they're trying to do the master check so they can move on to next lesson and just kind of get a grade and move on. Right? So I've tried to, like, change my wording around, like, when the students have to fail or not have to fit when, when students fail to like, have to revise. And instead of saying like, you got this wrong, like, I'll say like, you're still figuring this out, right? Let's break it down together, right? Let's see what went wrong, right? Just kind of going back to being more kind. 

Toni Rose Deanon  42:53  
Do you remember the whole saying of not yet? I feel like there was, like, a big movement for saying Not yet. You're not yet there,

Ernest Rodriguez  43:00  
I think so. Is it? Is it like saying, like, oh, like, the student doesn't like science. They're like, I'm not good at science. 

Toni Rose Deanon  43:06  
Yeah, yeah, something like that. Or even just, like, with grades, right? Instead of saying, You You failed or you didn't master, uh, teachers would say not yet. But I wanted to say that's actually what you said is better than not yet, right? Like, for me, the not is still a negative word. So for you to say, you figure it out, I love that, because that is more positive than saying not yet, right? You know it's like giving you more chances. There's more chance, right? Like there's there's another opportunity for you to understand exactly what we're talking about. And I know that you can do it, so you will figure it out. And you're really like, blowing my mind about these definitions, Ernest, clearly, I need to get a dictionary and look up words, because I feel like once people see that definition of failure, right, then they can take a step back and see the bigger picture of like, you know what? I No, I didn't fail. This is a lesson that I need to learn at the time. Being, this is just a this is a hump, right? It's not a clear, you know, pathway all the time. This is a hump, yeah, unsuccessful in one's goals. Like, you're right. What are the goals? Are we really unsuccessful? Is that really a failure? It's and I love words. I love words. This is great.

Ernest Rodriguez  44:32  
Thanks. I really, it really. It makes me think about, like, all the times we give students like projects, like PowerPoint projects, and then they just copy and paste all the words from Google, and then they have to present, and then it's like they're just reading verbatim off the words off of the slides. And we've always seen that before, and that is another example of, like, students just kind of completing an assignment, just to do it. You know what I mean? Like, did they achieve their goal? And sometimes some teachers, you know, I. Done it to a couple? Yeah, well, they they followed the rubric, right? They have the data, but were they successful in achieving the purpose of the assignment? You know, something kind of what you mentioned, like with me, like I felt that a lot in the beginning of the school year this year, because my exam scores were really low, they were really bad, and I felt like, wow, like I'm like, am I? Am I? What am I doing wrong? And I kind of reminded myself, like, my goal currently is, it's a goal is progress, right? You can't just complete it, like in one day. And I've noticed that my scores have increased ever since, like, September, like, unit by unit like, we're in Unit Six now my unit one score is like exam scores were really, really like Blue Bird low. But that's because our students weren't used to these, these things, right? They weren't used to this mastery based grade learning. And I see my classroom now, and students they are. They know what to do, like they when they come into class, they know where to find their notes, they know where to find the videos. They know where to find their mastery checks and my scores have been improving ever since then. And just kind of like helping students transition from fixed mindset to growth mindset, right, those buzzwords we hear all the time, and just kind of allowing students to kind of tell them, you're making progress, you know, and and, you know, it's, it's okay if you revise, it's okay if you have to do it again, like we're in this together, you know what I mean? And that's something that the modern classroom has allowed me to do. You know, have these moments where, you know, students are learning, you know, like at their own pace, and they're learning how to learn, you know, learning how to learn, I think, is the best way to put it,

Toni Rose Deanon  46:39  
and that's a skill set that they will always have, forever and ever and ever and ever, like that is something that nobody can take away from them and that they can utilize in all aspects of their lives, which I think is such a beautiful thing, right? You know, you talked about the purpose of tasks and mastery checks, right? And I also just want to say, like there's intentionality behind everything that we do, right? And if we're just doing it because we need busy work, because we want to see that students are actually doing the work, when really they're not understanding that's an issue. And kids pick up on that, like, kids pick up on that, like, this is busy work. This actually doesn't matter. I'm going to do it comply and still not get anything done, right? And so I would love to push, you know, our listeners to like, think about just being intentional with what you create. Like, less is more. In this case, we don't want to inundate our students with so many tasks, because, again, that fuels the learned helplessness. Because, again, that's just multiple more opportunities for students to fail over and over and over again when those tasks actually don't mean anything, right? So again, just taking a look at our practice, our teaching practices, and how we're creating a space for students to thrive, to be successful, to feel empowered, even though they are not, you know, quote, unquote, like mastering the concept, or like they're not failing, right? So I want to bring up the data piece that you said too, because we actually just got in the Facebook group. We have like, 20,000 teachers there, right? And we had a post on there that was like, hey, my data is really low. I think I'm going to give up on the model, because I've been doing it for you know, I think, like, two years maybe, and like, the data is just low. And like you said, it was very jarring for you. I'm sure to see, like, holy cow, this is low. But then you also pointed out that it doesn't just happen overnight. It could take a while for growth to happen. And I think in education, we're so used to getting this like quick, like, we just want something really quick, instant gratification. We wanted to be high already. We don't have the patience. And our school leaders also make decisions based off of, like, oh, this curriculum was not successful for this year, so we're no longer going to continue with that. So you know, like, there's this instant gratification we crave, but that's not really how change works in the classroom. And so I really love that you pointed out. Like, no, my grades were bad. Like, my data was low, low, okay, and that didn't deter you from continuing to do the work that you needed to do,

Ernest Rodriguez  49:11  
yeah? And I think my students even noticed that, you know, like, I was very, like, transparent since the beginning of the school year, like I showed the data, like, I would say, this is our unit one exam scores. This is what we got. And then I showed unit two, and then unit three, and then unit four. And I feel like, inherently, and hopefully, like some students were like, wow, like, Okay, well, well, some people are passing that. Maybe I can pass, you know, maybe I can do it, you know. And I've seen those students kind of this transition, you know. And my my scores have increased steadily over that. So I agree with you, like, it's also kind of like, because going back to being kinder to yourself, you know, and kind of understanding that the process like you mentioned, doesn't happen overnight. 

Toni Rose Deanon  49:52  
And I think you also said something ;really beautifully, right? Practice makes progress, not perfect. And then also, like, you had this. Very, I don't want to say simple, but you had, you showed growth. You didn't just talk about it like you actually were saying, like, here's unit one's test scores. I want you to take a look at that, right? And then here's unit two, you're growing. Unit Three, you're growing. So, like, kids need to see that, right? If we're just saying you're growing, you're growing, and they're not seeing it. It's not clicking. Like, we actually have to take the two minutes to talk about the growth that they have done, because everyone likes to be celebrated, even if it's like 50% to 60% that may not be passing. But y'all, that's a 10% growth. Like, that's incredible. That's amazing, you know? Um, so, okay, thank you for that. Now, Ernest, this is your second year using the model. You've seen a good amount of changes, right? Um, what have you noticed between the second year versus the first year that you have not mentioned before?

Ernest Rodriguez  50:58  
Well, some changes, some changes that I've incorporated into modern classroom is I try to, like, make should do's and aspire to do is a little bit more fun, I know, like in the model, it kind of says, like, you know, should do ASPI do should be more engaging and deeper. But like, my first year of my should my should do's were, like, long texts, kind of with jarring questions, and my aspire to do's were, like, you probably even more long text. And, you know, this year, I've kind of, like shifted it, like, I've used this tool called Gim kit, which is, like a fun, like way to, you know, engage students. And like I might do, like a hands on projects for aspire to do is like creating, like a model with Plato or, you know, just making it more engaging with the shoulders and aspire to dos. And something else I've done is I've created like three variants of the mastery check in my classroom. So we have like spice levels. So we have like a mild a master check, a spicy mastery check, and an extra spicy master check. And each of those allows, you know, students to choose, right? So if they finish a lesson, they get to choose whether they want to do a mild question which is a little bit more foundational and kind of covers the key aspects of it, or a spicy question which kind of has them applied, like their knowledge to a scenario. And actually spicy is usually like a regions based question. And this has allowed students to, kind of like, you know, access the content a multitude of ways. And I always had, I constantly have students ask me, Mr. Can I do, can I do all of them? I'm like, Yeah, of course, yeah, you can do all of them, of course. And that's something that I've kind of seen is, you know, kind of caught student attention. I started this, like, a month or two months ago. 

Toni Rose Deanon  52:39  
Yeah, no. This is Ernest. This is amazing because now I, you know, again, we get comments of like, hey, my students are not doing this. Should do an aspire to do's. And you had to take a step back and say, like, oh, actually, this. Should do an aspire to do crusty. I wouldn't do them either. So I had to shift right. I had to adjust and make it a lot more engaging and make it a lot more like fun, like, something that kids would want to do. So and I think you're right too, right? When we first started implementing the model, we think should do should be deeper, it should be like, longer, it should be like, deeper, right? And then we get frustrated as adults, as teachers, like, Oh, they're not doing this thing. And then I'm like, Oh, wait, I don't want to do this thing. So this is interesting. Ding, ding, ding, and then again, you continue with the options, right? Like students have options to revise now, students have options with the mastery check with the variance, right? Because, again, sometimes even our students who are advanced will opt out and do just the mild ones some days, right? They they're not going to choose the extra spicy every single day. And so it just provides, again, the options for students to show up as they are at the time that this is happening, and it's not pushing them to do more than what they're capable of doing at that moment. Oh my gosh.

Ernest Rodriguez  54:01  
That was so beautiful. That was so well said. I i 100% agree. And, yeah, that goes back to the revision process too. Like, sometimes I have a student, like, I push them to do spicy or extra spicy all the time, but, you know, they're having, like you mentioned, like, meeting them where they are, like, all right, Mr. I'll do the mob question, you know. Or be like, Okay, well, you're having a tough time with the spicy question. Let's jump back to the mild question. Show them that they can do it, and let's back, jump back to the spicy question, you know, kind of just, you know, helping them. Like, all right, we're gonna do the mild, but I want you to do this. And sometimes I won't even tell them, like, Okay, do the mild. It's fine. I know you haven't bad. And then they finish. And I'm like, Yep, okay, now you can get the spicy one, and then they'll do it, you know, because they have that sense of, like, all right, well, you know, like, that immediate, like, oh well, like, I guess instant, I don't know, instant gratification,

Toni Rose Deanon  54:49  
the validation, validation Ernest, the validation that they know it

Ernest Rodriguez  54:53  
that's been, really, I've seen great success with that in my classroom. 

Toni Rose Deanon  54:57  
Oh my gosh. I love this so much. I don't even know. Why I forgot about, yeah, the variants, right? Like, the options. Because even, like some of the kids that you think will not touch the extra spicy, like, will do it, and you're like, Oh, well, screw me for thinking otherwise, right? Like, what? Amazing.

Ernest Rodriguez  55:18  
It surprised me. Because even like, students that you might like, you mentioned, like, don't like, they want to understand the extra spicy, like, even, and that leads to more small group, you know, like, necessarily, like, they, they like, Okay, I'm gonna do the mild, but like, they want to know how to do the extra spicy. And that might be, like, that's where I use my tour guides. And I say, All right, well, you can break it down with a tour guide. And also it allows for you to, like, say they did them out already. They successfully. They've mastered it. I can put master on the Progress Tracker, but have them work on the extra spicy, you know, and, and it's it just, I love what you said. It literally allows them to assess them where they are for that day. And I love that. 

Toni Rose Deanon  55:59  
Oh my gosh. I love this. This is, again, it's just such a beautiful thing, right? Like, and even with students who may be at a lower reading level or whatever, right? And they do the mild and then they get that right? And there's their their confidence increases a little bit, right? And they're like, Okay, well, maybe I'll try the the spicy one. And then if they're like, Oh, I can't do that, not right now anyway, right? Like, I can't, I don't. Actually, I'm having problems with this. Like you said, they have the opportunity to work with a peer, and in the back of their minds, they're still like, well, I did the mild like, so I know this. Like, I know this stuff already. I'm just not able to access this spicy level just yet, right? Like, I'm gonna access it with my peers instead. And, oh my gosh, this is so beautiful artist. I love it, I love it, I love it, I love it. Okay, so let's talk about pieces of advice, because I feel like you've been dropping gems throughout this recording. Right this episode, what are one to two pieces of advice about learned helplessness and how both students and educators can be proactive about it rather than reactive. Because, again, our stress levels are high. We are reactive to a lot of things. So how do we how do we prevent that as much as we can, not all the time, because, you know, again, emotions run high. But yeah, what would you say? 

Ernest Rodriguez  57:16  
I would say the first step is kind of fostering that growth mindset that we keep hearing about in the educated, educator space, you know, like giving students, like, small, achievable goals. I remember in the beginning of the school year, like, I would give like, these insane, like, insanely like they were, they were for good reason, like these insanely complex, complicated master checks. And like my students, like, you know, some of them, this is my first year, like my students were like, I don't know, I don't know this, you know. So I try to, like, at the beginning of the unit, like my master checks are a little bit like, not as you know. Well, I guess I can do that now with the mild, spicy and extra spicy kind of thinking, like talk, but like, just giving them small, achievable goals, I think will help build that. Like you've mentioned, validation within our students, you know, and using language that emphasizes like, effort, right? And like saying that you know, like you worked really hard on that problem, like, Let's do great job. You did the mild. You want to try to do the extra spicy? Do you want to do the spicy? You know? Kind of slowly pushing them to create that growth mindset within them that you know, that can help students a lot. Um, for educators, I think something to kind of tackle learn helplessness in our students is just identifying early signs of like that learned helplessness, you know, the students that are disengaged and students that are you know, maybe like struggling, like identifying it early, will help you as an educator, because you're aware of it versus when it happens in the classroom. Because I know so many teachers put so much work into their lessons, and when a student isn't disengaged, it can low key feel a little bit, you know, like hurtful, like I put a lot of time and effort into this lesson as soon as just disengaged. But if you're aware of this, you're aware of that student, then you can, kind of, like, prepare in advance, you know, like and kind of maybe even like, come up with plans to help alleviate that learned helplessness in that student, and kind of really like, focus on that validation we talked about and those kind words, and kind of shift it, you know, 

Toni Rose Deanon  59:19  
it's a lot of awareness here Ernest, right? A lot of awareness of our students feelings and our students abilities, and our own feelings and our own abilities, especially biases coming in as well, right? Kids are coming in with biases about a content, about you, about, you know, the school, and then you're also coming in there with biases of, like, all the other things, right? So this is really interesting. I love I love that. Thank you for sharing that. Just being, be aware, be aware, and so that you can catch it early. Because I think sometimes too, you know, when we do self pacing, I catch the students right away who are falling behind. If they're one lesson behind, I got you, baby. We're doing this small group together. I'm not gonna wait three lessons below. Later, right? Like I'm gonna go ahead and catch you right there, so that you don't feel overwhelmed and stressed out that you're so behind. So I love that of just like being able to catch that. Another thing too that I wanted to point out is a language shift, right? Changing our language is really difficult. It's really difficult, and I would challenge our listeners also to have an accountability partner for me, it was my students. I told my students, Hey, I am I'm staying away from saying these words, and it's become such a part of me that I don't know when I say it. So I need you all to call me out, like giving again that like permission and inviting them to call me in when I'm saying words that are not, that are not the greatest words, right? Like, there's a lot of negative implications. And so then we've created this, like community again, of like, Oh, Ms, D is shifting, so maybe I should also shift. It's modeling, right? It's modeling. And then it's also showing, like, language shifts are hard. Like, if we're so used to saying this thing over and over again, and then for us to say another thing, like, we're gonna need a lot of grace. We're gonna need a lot of patience, and we're gonna need accountability partners for it. So when we provide again this space for all of us to learn together and to shift together, to adjust together, it's that much more fun. Oh my gosh. Ernest, this is so good.

Ernest Rodriguez  1:01:27  
I just want to say I agree being vulnerable in the classroom, being vulnerable in general to others, is difficult, and I think when you're vulnerable with students, it creates something magical. I like. I think it's true. I generally like. And the fact that you say that you have students kind of keeping you in check, in a sense, is so great, you know, because it shows that, you know, like shifting it from an authoritarian figure like this, you know that we have this idea of teacher, the teacher you have to listen to the teacher, like switching it versus, like a learning community, I think is, is, is key. 

Toni Rose Deanon  1:02:05  
Yeah, it really rocks that power balance, right? Like me as the adult, me as the educator, I don't have all the power, and nor do I want all the power, because that sucks. I don't want that for anybody. So the vulnerability piece really comes into play, right? And I'm not saying, like, be vulnerable with everything, share all the things. It's like, no, like, I want to make this shift, this one shift. And like you said, small goals, small steps, right? And the more that you do it, the more it feels better. But in the beginning it's really, it's going to be really uncomfortable that's with any change. All right, so, Ernest, what do you hope to see in the future? And what goals do you have? 

Ernest Rodriguez  1:02:42  
Well, currently, I'm back at school, back in school to become an administrator, and I would hope to see a school that has tiny bits of the modern classroom incorporated into each class. I think that all I understand, I've spoken to educators about, you know, the modern classroom, and some of them are a little bit skeptical for a good reason, but I think all classes would benefit from a Progress Tracker. I think all classes would benefit from self paced learning, and I think all classes would benefit from mastery based grading. The Progress Tracker is just a certain way that students can just know where they are, you know, like, I know, like a lot of classes, students come in and they just might, like you mentioned, feel overwhelmed by it all, and that creates that learned helplessness within them, that just, oh, well, there's nothing I can do. It's just too much. I don't know what's even. You know, students use Jupiter, but they don't. They don't ever sign on to Jupiter to see their their grades, but having a Progress Tracker facing the front to show like, this is where we are, this is where you are, and this is where you can be, helps create that that growth in our students and self paced learning, like we understand that students learn at different different times, in different places and different ways, and just the mastery based grading, like, once again, showing those small points of validation and kind of showing that you are able to do this, you're able to master it, you know. I know. I know teachers feel it when they see students and they see that mastered on there. Like, students feel that sense of like, wow, okay, like I did that, you know. So that's something I want to really incorporate as I move into an administrator. 

Toni Rose Deanon  1:04:18  
Yeah, I was gonna say, like, you becoming a school leader and administrator. I mean, I can see definitely how it's going to be so impactful for whatever school you end up at. Thank you for sharing that. And how can our listeners connect with you? Ernest,

Ernest Rodriguez  1:04:33  
yeah, well, they can connect with me on my email, Mr Dot Rod 2425@gmail.com,

Toni Rose Deanon  1:04:40  
beautiful, and listeners will have that in the show notes as well. So you don't have to do any, doing any Yeah, you don't have to write anything down. So with that being said, this was such a nice, pleasant surprise of a conversation. Ernest, you really again, just exploded my brain. So thank you. I'm gonna have to. Pick that up once we're off. And so just thank you again, so much for sharing your expert experience and expertise with us, and I'm so glad that we finally have this conversation on the podcast, as opposed to emails back and forth.

Ernest Rodriguez  1:05:15  
Thanks Toni, it's been a pleasure having conversation. It's been a long time coming, but we finally got there,

Toni Rose Deanon  1:05:19  
yeah, yeah. And it's beautiful too, because you said, like, when you first reached out, right? You were like, Hey, I'm frustrated. I don't know if I can keep doing this because of a, b, c, d, right? And then you said, but give me time. I need time to see what I can do. And you, like, completely shifted. So I'm really I'm really proud of you. I'm really grateful for you. I'm really appreciative of just everything that you're doing for our kids. So just again, thank you. Thank you. 

Ernest Rodriguez  1:05:46  
Thank you. Toni 

Toni Rose Deanon  1:05:48  
listeners, remember you can always email us at podcast at modern classrooms.org and you can find the show notes for this episode at podcast.modernclassrooms.org We'll have this episode's video uploaded on modern classrooms YouTube channel on transcript uploaded by Friday, so be sure to check back to access those also, we are asking our listeners to leave a review. If this podcast has been helpful in supporting you to create a human centered learning environment through a blended, self paced and mastery based model, it does help other folks find it. Thank you all for listening. Have a great week, and we'll be back next Sunday.

Zach Diamond  1:06:20  
a thank you so much for listening. You can find links to topics and tools we discussed in our show notes for this episode, and remember, you can learn more about our work at www.modernclassrooms.org and you can learn the essentials of our model through our free course atlearn.modernclassrooms.org you can follow us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram at modernclassproj, that's P, R, O, J, we are so appreciative of all you do for students in schools. Have a great week, and we'll be back next Sunday with another episode of the modern classrooms project podcast

Transcribed by https://otter.ai