McIntyre (00:01.854) whatever it takes. Danylo (00:07.826) All right, I think. Danylo (00:12.946) Backup going. we gotta sync it up. McIntyre (00:19.134) yeah. Danylo (00:23.283) Whoa, I'm on time .isn't Beijing as highlighted. Think that's an omen? McIntyre (00:26.27) my god! It's an omen! Danylo (00:32.434) summary just in case. Danylo (00:38.769) Yes, we need it. McIntyre (00:55.486) Have we gotten any more fan mail? Danylo (00:58.129) Nope, that was it. Which is pretty cool. McIntyre (01:01.47) pretty fucking pretty fucking cool. Danylo (01:04.272) Lit charts is impossible to navigate. All right, well, if I need something, I'll find it independently. All right. McIntyre (01:14.462) Do your own research. McIntyre (01:18.654) hang on one second Danylo (01:19.12) when I go on 30. McIntyre (01:28.542) I guess it's fine. Yeah, let's go in 40. McIntyre (01:37.95) I didn't think you were gonna make it. Danylo (01:38.575) Nice. I keep my hands out of sight just to keep you on edge. McIntyre (01:44.446) as i well i do i find when you i can see your hands i am on edge of numbing Danylo (01:51.027) What are those hands doing? McIntyre (01:53.438) could they be doing? Danylo (01:56.014) Alright, are you ready? Hello everyone, welcome back to Hardcover Hooligans. I am Danello and I'm joined as always by a rehydrated McIntyre Godwin and Mac... Yep, yep. I have a question for you. So if you got to send a message to aliens, what are you telling them? McIntyre (01:57.63) Yeah. McIntyre (02:13.022) yes, you know, you know me. McIntyre (02:24.862) I'd swipe up, I'd send him the ad, you know? Come party, bro. Come party with me and my boys, you know? That's what I do. That's what I'm about. Danylo (02:29.166) Your your street at your street address McIntyre (02:33.982) Of course man, my street address I say BYOB, we'll have some beer but if you want liquor bring it yourself. Cause I'm a cool guy that... They do, bring your own boing boing boing. I'm trying to think of an Alienware that starts with a B, I couldn't think of it. Can I just get ahead, can I put the cart before the horse here a little bit? Way off on my called shot from our previous episode. Maybe not way off, but I was wrong. Danylo (02:35.757) You And they'll, I mean, they know what BYOB is. Danylo (02:47.886) I was also trying to think of the Queen alien thing. Bring your own blob. Danylo (02:58.86) You were... I think I was right, more or less. So, I... I win the podcast, and now we're done. Jimmy, you changed the scoreboard. Who's right about the most book stuff? McIntyre (03:03.326) Okay, great. Okay, well, we'll call the presses. Danila's right. we got Wall Street Journal on the phone. You win the podcast. This is what it's been building to. You Bing Danillo so far. Most book stuff. Yes, you were right. You were right. Danylo (03:27.979) So, yep, we are reading the second half of Cishun Liu's Three -Body Problem, which is just part three of the book, which is a big old chunk of it. If as a recap, there's aliens and they're coming. McIntyre (03:50.238) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Danylo (03:53.739) Do you want to fill in the details, Mac? McIntyre (03:55.934) Well, I mean, there's a... There's mysterious, unexplained phenomena affecting the universe, and there's also this mysterious video game about solving the impossible to solve, at least given the current... What is the criteria? What is the word I'm looking for? The cur - like the... Unsolvable with the things - yeah, with the current knowledge three -body problem. Danylo (04:19.305) knowledge yeah McIntyre (04:25.79) It gets solved. It is revealed that aliens maybe co -developed this game. We don't know, like in the first half we don't really know what's going on, but some sort of alien project. We meet this organization called the ETO, which is like, they're like a Earth tri-, I mean it means Earth Triceleras Organization and it's like a group of humans who want to accept the aliens and Danylo (04:52.105) The aliens are the Tricelerans. McIntyre (04:54.686) Yes, yes, and in a bunch of years in the past this woman named Yo -One Shia is... We don't know she's responsible yet, but she is responsible in the past for inviting the aliens to the planet in the first place. Danylo (05:10.759) Right, she makes the first contact and she is like, her dad was killed in the Cultural Revolution and all that stuff. And part of, there's also like the present day plot line is with a nanotechnologist named Wong and. how he gets recruited into this science organization and it sort of becomes it's clear that this science organization is sort of a front or almost like a feeder mechanism into the eto and it feels like a lot of the first half is like set up you're like what's really going on and then the second part there's a lot of people monologuing all the background information McIntyre (05:41.438) Mm -hmm. McIntyre (05:54.142) Yeah, there is. That's mostly what it is. How about we explain the shit out of all this mystery going on? And I was like, aw man. Danylo (06:01.446) I think literally in some parts, it's like, as we all know, let me recap what we all know just because it's a good refresher for all of you members of this organization. I was like, my God. McIntyre (06:05.342) Yeah. McIntyre (06:14.846) Yeah, I wasn't a huge fan of that. Not the biggest fan of the back half of this book, but... Danylo (06:21.318) Yeah, Liu, has a, he's very blunt in terms of his writing style. McIntyre (06:31.87) Yeah, but you know, so is, at least the only one we've read for the show, The Dispossessed. So is Le Guin, but I don't know, something about The Dispossessed was so human, and this book really feels, not to be cute because it's about aliens, but feels like not human. Like, it's just like people explaining, seriously, like there are huge sections of pages about like aliens developing AI, and I was just like, Danylo (06:49.604) Mm -hmm. Yeah. Danylo (07:00.836) And like here's here's their trial and error process and it's like Liu was like, okay rule of threes They have to mess up twice and look we're reading about it and like my god McIntyre (07:01.15) Boy, I don't give a shit about this at all. Yeah, I was like, I don't care. Yeah. McIntyre (07:14.526) I mean, respect, I guess, but I just... I don't know. I didn't care about any of that. But I care about the mystery. I think the mystery is super cool. Which sucks that there is no... Literally everything is explained. Literally everything. Even the numbers and the eyes. All of it. Danylo (07:21.699) Yeah. Danylo (07:27.395) Yeah. And not like explained as in we find out. It's like literally a character explains it. McIntyre (07:35.678) Yeah, here's why like the aliens happen to be like writing down or like recording their meetings and they sent it to the humans for some reason to let them know what was going on even though the whole plan is like we don't want them to know what's going on, but we're gonna let them know what's going on. Whatever. Don't don't really understand why the aliens couldn't have just built the AI protons to just kill all the humans instead they did it to halt science. I'm not really sure why that is going on, but. Danylo (07:42.978) Hahaha Danylo (07:49.762) Yeah, crazy. Danylo (08:03.201) Anyway, okay, we'll get into that when we get to that part of it. So yeah, video game, aliens, the three -body problem, the aliens come from a planetary system with three suns, and so they're like, civilizations are constantly being erased because it gets too cold or too hot, or there's a tri -solar syzygy and completely burns everything to the ground. If you need any more background on that listen to our previous episode where we talk all about that This next part of the book starts with a Like the next earth try solarin Organization meetup and there's a lot more people there McIntyre (08:36.798) Yeah. McIntyre (08:48.702) The one that Wong was invited to after, like, the game ended. Danylo (08:52.928) Right. There's like a, they're like, it starts off with there's like sleeper cells where like they vet people like, hey, are you disillusioned enough with humanity to be invited to this next meeting? And Wong somehow passes that despite being the most suspicious person in the world. McIntyre (09:01.822) You chill? McIntyre (09:05.47) Yeah, can you hang? McIntyre (09:10.814) Yeah, it kinda rolls over. Danylo (09:12.767) but so there's a big meetup the last section ended with a murder. There's a sign or like a biologist by the name of panhan i'm sure it's called panhan but in my mind well, okay. We'll call him panhan. I won't disrespect him by calling him panhan McIntyre (09:24.606) It is. Well, he is a bad guy. Danylo (09:32.67) Pan Han murdered another physicist who Wong was talking to. and immediately at this meeting, he confesses to this murder because they were both members of this organization, but we learned that there are two different factions. The adv - I, I don't remember the third one. Right. McIntyre (09:49.758) Well, there are actually three, but there's just two at the meeting. The survivors are the third one. Danylo (09:56.765) right. But the two factions that are sort of at war with each other in this whole welcome the alien like, let's open the door to the aliens group are the Adventists and the redemptionists. And the Adventists are basically like, okay, humans are wholly bad. And we can't wait for these aliens to show up and destroy us all. And the redemptionists and and believe it or not, they think they're right and anyone who doesn't believe that is crazy. And the redemptionists are like, so, you know, humanity's lost its way. But when these aliens arrive, we can use their technology and it'll make humanity better. And. McIntyre (10:22.43) It's gonna be sweet. McIntyre (10:26.878) Mm -hmm. Danylo (10:42.011) I believe Pan Han is an Adventist. He wants all humanity to die, like for the good of nature. And so he had killed this other physicist who was trying to, you know, be a part of this other group. And then we get the big reveal at this meeting where they're like, the commander's coming, the commander's coming and the door opens and it's yo wen tia, which McIntyre (11:10.27) No! Danylo (11:10.747) kind of caught me off guard. I didn't expect that because the first half of the book I'm like why are we learning about this disconnected woman's backstory? But it turns out she's in charge of this whole thing. In fact, she started it. McIntyre (11:22.75) Danylo (11:25.601) crazy. And then this is when she is like, for the benefits of the one new person here, let me tell you the story of how this organization was founded. And then it cuts to a flashback chapter. Basically, what happens, she's working on this base. Still, she uses the sun to amplify a radio signal really far away. Then eight years go by. McIntyre (11:35.07) Yep. Danylo (11:53.561) And then one morning she gets a message from another world that just says, do not answer, do not answer, do not answer, which is very creepy. McIntyre (12:02.27) Yeah, it's cool. Danylo (12:05.528) But that's not the only thing she gets like a couple minutes later another message comes through and details like hey, so Our world got your message. They don't know exactly where it came from If you send another one, they will know exactly where it came from and then they will come and conquer you So don't send a message And the signal came from the closest star system to earth called Alpha Centauri Which McIntyre (12:32.51) Which is where, borderline every single science fiction story is where the aliens come from. Because it's the closest star, so it would make sense that the shortest distance. Danylo (12:38.103) you Because it makes it only sense, right? Because it's like X number of light years or something. Because anything further than that would, nothing would ever happen. Like all humans involved in the story would die before the aliens would come. So naturally, she sends a response immediately. I like the text is like her finger hovered over the button. And she did not hesitate. Like it sounds like she hesitated when her finger hovered over the button. I don't know about you. Yeah, but she sends a response that's like basically like, we're ruined. Come and get us or something like that. And that's how first contact happens. Now, do you want to talk about the next part? I believe it's where. McIntyre (13:12.51) hover over the button. McIntyre (13:25.214) Hehehe McIntyre (13:34.366) yeah, so... Danylo (13:35.669) the army like raids the ETL meeting. McIntyre (13:38.814) Yeah, so the... Because he's part of an army, like the battle command center made up of NATO and the CIA and the Chinese military and all this stuff. They're tracking what Wang Miao is doing and when he's at this meeting they all burst in and Da Xue, the cop, our gruff policeman friend, comes in with them. Fuck yeah! The big shit. Danylo (14:03.028) Yeah, Dasha! McIntyre (14:07.774) He comes in and the army, it's not like the cops, the army is there and they're pointing like sub machine guns at all the people. And then there's like a big argument breaks out and then these three people, there's like this model in the middle of the room of the three body problem. And the one of the people picks up one of the like sons in the model and she's like, this is a nuclear bomb, I dare you to shoot it. and they have like a bomb expert who like checks them on he's like well one of them is a nuclear bomb but the other two are like fake or whatever and so Dasha is like i know where your mom is and the woman holding the bomb she's like you do and she like lowers it and then somebody shoots the bomb because like the explosives expert is like well if we shoot it it's not gonna you know whatever Danylo (15:02.93) It'll just blow up the dynamite that causes the nuclear reaction, not cause a nuclear reaction, I guess. McIntyre (15:06.686) yeah not not the new so they do that and there's like a big explosion and big firefight that happens mostly off screen because bilbo baggan style wong meow is knocked out crazy and when you Danylo (15:17.125) We're not even off -screen. This is sort of where I was like The writing style really took a huge dip because like the action scene is not really like and then he ran over here and then they showed up and then he shot the gun and then it exploded and there was dust everywhere like it was Yeah McIntyre (15:33.022) Hehehehehe It's very, very frank, you know, it's very blunt, but everybody's fine except for like some army guys and some Adventist guys. They arrest Yehuan Xia and there's this funny moment where Wang is like, how'd you know that that person had a daughter? And Dao Shui is like, I didn't, I just guessed and it worked out. And so they're like, okay. And then we go to Yehuan Xia is being interrogated. Danylo (15:57.2) You you McIntyre (16:06.078) And while she's being interrogated, she tells another story about this time she met this guy named Mike Evans. And Mike Evans is a pan -species communist. And with that... Danylo (16:06.256) Right. Danylo (16:15.472) I think there's actually another part before this where she admits to killing her husband and the other guy. McIntyre (16:21.306) that's right, she killed the Commissar Lay and her husband whose name I don't remember. Danylo (16:24.111) Yeah, because they found out about the message because like she like thought she deleted the file, but there's like a backup who goes to the commander of the base because of course there is and he finds out and then he's all like mad and her husband's also there and they're like climbing down to fix some wire and she like cuts off the cuts the rope. Right. McIntyre (16:41.374) Well, some wire that she sabotaged because she thought the commissar was only gonna do it and then her husband shows up and is like, hey, I'll help and she's like, please don't, but she kills them both. Danylo (16:50.99) Yep. To stop people from finding out. Yep. And then but she she ends up like being pregnant and then more years go by and she has a kid and then like the country starts opening up more and she starts like helping other kids teach physics. So. McIntyre (16:52.798) You gotta do what you gotta do. McIntyre (17:09.15) Wow, I forgot all about this. I didn't care about this one bit. Yeah, she like Danylo (17:11.853) In my mind, it's sort of like the character journey, like, she's horribly disillusioned, which is why she's like humanity has to end. But then like sort of after that episode in her life, like, maybe there is like good in this world and she can like learn to live for something. So but also she's not that conflicted because then she starts this organization where they want to end the world. McIntyre (17:32.222) I was gonna say like that right exactly so when I was like wow but you already know where she ends up so you're like this is not this is like nothing like I don't really care about this yeah she's like making friends in this like little village by radar peak and whatever and she becomes like a teacher again but then she meets Mike while she's like a teacher on a retreat or whatever and Mike is like Danylo (17:47.18) Right? Danylo (17:53.612) If you didn't think this book was not going to have a crazy white guy in it, well here you go. McIntyre (17:56.99) There is there's a Mike says a lot of really cool stuff and then he's like I think that we should be protecting nature and taking care of nature and I think that his dad's like a billionaire who owns an oil company and his dad's opinion is like life for humans on earth is number one and everything else is secondary and Mike is like no like pan speak across species communism So not just humans, but like all animals everything including humans And then he's like, and also I think aliens should blow up all the human beings. And it's like, okay. Danylo (18:27.5) cool. Danylo (18:31.723) No, because he because he starts at the span pan species humanism and then yeah is like so I sent a message to aliens and they're coming and He's like this is perfect. We can end humanity Because he also becomes this Because he also becomes disillusioned because he like tries to protect the forest and the government's like actually we're gonna chop it down He's like what my life I can't do anything It all needs to be done McIntyre (18:40.422) that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And he's like, that sounds awesome. Yeah. It's like, I don't, was that really what you wanted? Like humanity is bad obviously, but. McIntyre (18:59.07) Yeah, yeah. And so there's like this big boat that they built in order to verify the claims of aliens. They build this boat called Judgment Day. And on the boat they build it's like Red Coast Project. Give me back my son or whatever. No, that's the different one. Danylo (19:01.162) Danylo (19:15.658) to my Harrison Ford movie. Danylo (19:22.858) They're looking for, no, I was gonna say, they're gonna switch the samples. McIntyre (19:27.294) Yeah McIntyre (19:31.326) So that yeah, they verify the aliens or whatever and it's like this big boat and Danylo (19:40.042) Yeah, because the guy's a billionaire, so he basically sets up Red Coast base on like an old freighter so it can sail around in international waters and talk to the aliens as much as it wants. McIntyre (19:49.534) Yeah, and so that's what happens and then the interrogator relays this information to the army And then the army is like well, we got to get on that boat Danylo (19:52.202) They've. Danylo (19:58.634) Also some background info. This is the group that they like developed the three body game and they sort of like worship the tricellarans as like this the future of humanity. They like they like project their I think I think what the others going for is like all these disillusioned people are like projecting their hope or disillusionment onto like this external force. McIntyre (20:06.394) yeah, the ETO. Danylo (20:28.586) that will come and fix everything. McIntyre (20:31.39) And the there's this like thing I don't there's like this claim that a character makes that like poor people can't aren't like Ready to accept that the human beings are bad and thus we need like the aliens to like fix everything So like poor people don't really join the eto. It's like more intellectuals And I don't know. I don't live no, I was just gonna say I don't live in china, but poor disillusioned americans Danylo (20:52.554) because they make like the... go ahead. McIntyre (21:00.99) would act like yes it we it is happen it happens like the people like like like in disenfranchised like you know like rural communities tend to be like right wing people who think like pedophile kabals are Danylo (21:04.01) you Danylo (21:15.946) anything. Right. McIntyre (21:23.198) running under pizza shops when they're like heroes destined to slaughter them like yes, they'd believe in the aliens So I don't know if that's just like a funny cultural difference Danylo (21:27.242) Right. I wonder it's very pre Social I think it's also because they think this book was written very pre social media. I think like in Yeah, the Chinese version is or the original Chinese publication is like 2004 because like I would imagine a different world where like it's not a video game it's like a McIntyre (21:37.074) that's true, I keep forgetting it's like 2004. Danylo (21:50.282) like a Russian bot farm that's all putting out all this content and trying to convert all these like poor rural disenfranchised people to be like we need the aliens to come and there's riots in the streets but the way the author does it is it's just the like intelligentsia because they're the only ones who do the ones who get it McIntyre (21:52.733) Yeah! McIntyre (22:10.75) And they're also the only ones who like can sense that this video game is not the most boring video game of all time, which even when they do sense that it's right. It still is the most boring video game. I get it. Still a terrible video game, but. Danylo (22:16.842) and can afford a virtual suit. Gameplay to boss battles, digital boss battles. McIntyre (22:26.558) There's no boss battles. There's no fog gate. Danylo (22:32.286) my god, the hitboxes and through body. McIntyre (22:33.726) my god I keep clipping through the glass pyramid. Fuck, fuck. Danylo (22:38.55) I can't believe they released an unfinished game. McIntyre (22:41.15) Too hard, too hard. Danylo (22:44.074) That was woke aliens gonna save us stuff. I just want good game, man McIntyre (22:46.462) my god, another company going woke and going broke man. What the fuck? I gotta talk to Isaac Newton in some kind of pyramid? Yeah, right Danylo (22:53.93) Granted, I don't think there are any women in the three -body game, so... So, you know, maybe that is the game that nerds everywhere are actually wanting. McIntyre (22:57.662) I don't think there is either. I don't think there is either. McIntyre (23:05.63) No women and just getting to hang out with racist historical figures. Sweet. Danylo (23:13.733) So They basically It's gonna the tri -solar and fleet has left because they got this signal and they've been communicating with humanity It's gonna take them 450 years to arrive Because they can't Go their big ships can't go at light speed the whole time or something So yeah Yeah but and now McIntyre (23:29.085) Whoops. McIntyre (23:41.182) No, yeah, that's why. So they go in bursts. Danylo (23:47.178) we switch to the tricellarine point of view. George R .R. Martin style, you know, the next section is a, you see tricellarine, you're like, yes, I love this POV. McIntyre (23:53.566) yeah. McIntyre (23:58.558) And it's sort of cute because it's literally like there's like this listing post this alien's at and he literally does the same exact - it's like word for word like the narratorial voice is the same describing his reaction to finding out there's aliens. And it's like literally like his fingers hovered over the - it's not a space bar it's like a big red square or whatever but it's like the same exact thing. Danylo (24:15.551) Yeah. And it's going like this listener at this like radio listening base, this alien. He's also he's like, yeah, there's there's trying to make that obvious, you know, comparison that like he's sort of disillusioned with his society because in between like these chaotic eras, it's like super boring and McIntyre (24:26.206) He's an incel. Danylo (24:41.183) They have to have a super authoritarian government because that's the only way they can survive. He'll never get laid, which is why he sends the warning of like, don't respond. And then immediately his boss is find out. And he's like, okay, so you sent that warning, we're gonna kill you. McIntyre (24:43.966) And he can't get laid is literally part of it. He can't get laid. McIntyre (25:00.19) Well no, they're not gonna kill him. His punishment is that he's gonna be around long enough to see Earth get completely destroyed and then they'll kill him. Danylo (25:01.918) specifically, right. Danylo (25:08.19) Because he because the because he sees Earth is like, my gosh, there's this beautiful paradise out there somewhere. And he's like, if we go there, we're going to ruin it. So it's better for it to like exist in peace and us to know that it exists or something like that. So but the plan for the Tricylarans leave and their plan is like, how are we going to stop these humans from having big guns when we get there? Because it's 450 years and they know we're coming. McIntyre (25:20.382) Mm -hmm. Danylo (25:38.11) you McIntyre (25:38.558) Well, yeah, because there's an alien who's like from the Stone Age to the whatever age it was a hundred thousand years. That's wrong. That's obviously not true. But it's like not 10 ,000 years. And then from this age to this age, it was 500. And then from this age to this age, it was 200. So imagine how technologically advanced they'll be in 450, which big ups, big W for the human race. I like it when an alien says that you're damn right. Damn right. Stay fucking far away. 450 years. Danylo (25:44.604) Right. Danylo (25:58.363) Yeah. Because because the aliens there, they are like because of the three body problem and all the three sons, they're like civilizations can't progress at a technological rate the same way. But because Earth is stable, they could just keep developing. McIntyre (26:18.11) But thank God, while they develop all this science, suddenly the chaotic and stable arrows don't really matter anymore. It's fine. And they're just around. Danylo (26:23.802) But they're like, okay, we've got a solution we're gonna send two protons at Earth to fuck shit up and then you're like how are troop two protons gonna help anything and then This is I think when we cut to the whole there how they like get judgment day They get all the data that's on there. Do you want to talk about this section? That's kind of cool, but also it's too long. McIntyre (26:53.694) yeah yeah yeah yeah I guess it's like the plan, they can't figure out, they spend like four pages trying to figure out, the military spends four pages trying to figure out how to kill a bunch of people really quickly and it's like, I shoot them in the head with the gun, but whatever. So they can't, cause they're like, they might delete all the data and it's like, they're going to delete all the data if you fucking attack it with a big sword anyway, but whatever. And you have to, it's just one, well, okay. So the, They can't figure it out and whatever blah blah blah blah blah and then there's like a cute little reference to ball lightning which is a different Shixin Liu book. It's like it's literally like a lightning gun that just like fires and vaporizes people. It's a cute little reference and then they're like wait a minute we forgot Wong Mao didn't you make the strongest smallest lightest coolest sword of all time and they're like yes yes he did and they're like what if we just string that up like the funny like a funny clothesline. Danylo (27:48.887) you McIntyre (27:54.974) And that's exactly what they do. Danylo (27:55.543) and slice them. And he's like, well, good news. In one month, the judgment day is going through the Panama Canal. So we're gonna string up a bunch of these things and slice them. Yep. McIntyre (28:07.838) It's like a big net and they in the ship when they when they're there on the day the ship goes through the net and it falls apart like Lego and they recover the data and then this is how they learn all about that like what the aliens are doing. Danylo (28:21.911) Right. And the aliens have communicated all their experiments to these people for some reason. McIntyre (28:28.19) Yeah, I don't know why, maybe I missed that, I don't really know why they're telling this sect of humans, but... Danylo (28:31.286) Yeah, me neither. Because the reader needs to know. The reader needs to know. There is this long section about how the trisolarans are like, we're gonna... Basically what they do is they take a proton and unfold it into multiple dimensions and basically make a huge computer out of it. And because of like quantum communication, you know, McIntyre (28:34.814) Well, yeah. Danylo (29:01.141) that's like instantaneous or whatever that doesn't observe the laws of normal physics they can like send these proton computers specific commands from their planet and so they shoot two of these big -ass proton or not big they're small they're they are they're the opposite they're small McIntyre (29:20.03) They're proton size. They're small ass. Danylo (29:24.693) Because there's this whole process about like, we actually only unfolded it in seven dimensions and the seven dimension people are mad, so shoot them down and then, we only did it in four dimensions, but you can't see it. I don't quite get what the point is other than like, man, physics is crazy, huh? McIntyre (29:27.966) Holy shit man, I - McIntyre (29:44.926) Yeah, but it's also like none of it's real. So I don't care that they're like explaining it. It's like and like And this is instant because instantly they don't need to say it but you're like, that they actually do say it the reason that the Like he was taking the pictures and seeing it was because like they can move so fast through like film that they can develop it and so they were they were just pranking scientists That's all it is Danylo (29:47.508) Alright. Danylo (30:11.156) That's yeah, that that's their plan is to like McIntyre (30:14.686) And it's like that sucks. Like I don't know why I was so like let down. I'm not like looking for a cool mystery, but just to like ad nauseam explain the mystery like this, I thought sucked. Danylo (30:24.916) Or like, it's just space magic, you know? Like, I think it's trying. It's like, and I think he tries to explain it, but he doesn't really, right. McIntyre (30:31.294) Yeah, yeah. it's just unexplainable space bullshit. Okay, sure. McIntyre (30:39.646) But it's still fake, because you can't explain it, because it's about a fucking proton computer that can fold and unfold into a billion dimensions and can like travel through space and time. Danylo (30:45.362) The logic is that, okay, that you send two protons to Earth and you can have them do whatever they want, so... Part of this is that like you know the development of science is to like you know at the very frontiers of science there have to be like breakthroughs and like data gathering so that like science and technology can move forward they're like but if these two protons just go and fuck up all their data and like Have scientists see crazy visions. They can't explain by science They're gonna stop doing science and like they can't get the right data Which I think is kind of smart as like a way to stop human progress, but also it's like, okay McIntyre (31:07.518) Right. McIntyre (31:27.454) Yeah, but why do you need to stop? You built a, just build it so that it has like a small gun and kills all the humans. I don't understand why it has to be like the science thing. Danylo (31:27.859) Okay. Danylo (31:34.417) Yeah, why humans have to be around. Because it could kill everyone, right? You would assume. McIntyre (31:38.846) Yeah, I don't get it. Danylo (31:42.928) that's sort of the end. And then, and then you have visits where you get RP and it's like, yeah. And then, and then all the, all like long and everyone get like really drunk and they're like, we're fucked. We're fucked. These two protons have fucked us. And then at the end, they're like, maybe we're not so fucked after all. Cause they can, cause the Tricylarin compare, humans to bugs, but the McIntyre (31:47.198) That's how the book ends. or the part not the book, yeah. Danylo (32:12.271) They have the breakthrough that like, but wait, but humans have never fully eliminated bugs. So maybe we have a chance. McIntyre (32:18.942) Cause they're being watched by the protons too. So the aliens are appraised of what's going on 24 seven. And so they see that them figure that figure this out and then they send another message to them. And then they're like, you're all bugs and dash shows like come to my hometown. It's covered in locusts. And he picks up a locust and he's like, do you think you're these locusts is close to being as smart as you? And the two scientists are like, no, we don't. And it's like, what the fuck? Wow. What a beautiful, what a beautiful metaphor. Danylo (32:21.359) Right. Danylo (32:47.663) And then the last chapter of the book is Yuh visits radar peak and there's a plaque and she's like, huh? How far we've come and then the book ends So that's the end of three body problem McIntyre (32:55.07) Yep, and then the bookends. What a riveting back half. Danylo (33:07.343) Mac, thoughts? McIntyre (33:12.158) I was really into this book and then I thought it was boring as hell and then I thought it was silly and then I didn't really care anymore by the end. Danylo (33:22.511) Yeah, I sort of felt the same way. Like going through it like this, I'm like, what? Because a lot of promise. But then it falls into, I couldn't help thinking about our good friend Brandon Sanderson and his two thief meetings, the planning meetings. There's so many scenes in this book where it's characters who aren't characters, like planning something like, should we do this? No, because of this. Should we do this? McIntyre (33:38.718) Yeah! Danylo (33:52.303) No, because of that. That's not a story. And like I could like, and it felt like all that stuff was like taking the place where interesting character stuff could have happened. And I know, I think I was reading some reviews and this book, a lot of people don't like this book because of like the flat characters, but like I wouldn't mind the flat characters if they're like made up for it in other ways. McIntyre (33:55.198) You're right, no, no, it's not. Danylo (34:17.167) But it doesn't really. The characters are all kind of flat and then they're also talking about science, like space magic, and then that ends. McIntyre (34:28.318) Yeah, as soon as the mystery is revealed of what's going on, I completely lost interest. I was like, I don't care. Danylo (34:36.143) I mean, I haven't read a ton of sci -fi. I know you've Mac probably read more than I have is like I was sort of compelled by the idea of Like the human part of it I just wish it was like explored more like because of human activities this one person is like disillusioned and invites aliens but also like There's part of the aliens that are disillusioned. Like I feel like it's trying to say something about how humans view themselves in science, but it almost like it's too lost in the like, I gotta use the crazy nanomaterial I made up. McIntyre (35:14.974) No it does, it does. I think like the reason why like science fiction works and can be so cool and so interesting is when like And I don't mean like Star Wars is not science fiction. It's like a space opera. Star Trek is science fiction because they fucking sit around and do science and the stories are, you know, based around that. So like the idea that like, hero has doomed or not hero, like flawed human being has doomed humanity due to a strong belief in Danylo (35:35.887) fantasy. McIntyre (35:59.486) based in science is like the basis for every is a strong word but every science fiction story that isn't like a silly like not well not silly but not like an adventure novel like the expanse or something like that like a big long series that's mostly about like sweet spaceships fucking blowing each other up Danylo (36:05.768) You McIntyre (36:23.006) That's not what this is about. That's not what it's trying to be. But what it needs to be then is I need to care about these characters. Like, cause I keep reminding it kept reminding me I'm a big dickhead. You know, I like Philip K Dick. Not to be cute, but a big dickhead. He's, he's, you know, a terrible writer and especially awful at writing women. Like it's so insane. Danylo (36:34.236) Mm -hmm. Yeah. McIntyre (36:52.478) But the characters are so weirdly compelling. The characters and the ideas are so compelling in Philip K. Dick's novels that people don't even care. That's why he's so famous. The books kind of suck, but you're like, holy shit, I'm just so enraptured in this prose and this concept that I don't care. And that's sort of like this book. Danylo (37:09.416) Yeah. McIntyre (37:21.438) So I'm confused why, I mean this book is not like misogynistic like fucking Philip K Dick is, but it's got the same like, these characters are nothing, it's the idea that I'm supposed to be here for. I just think like, it's just aliens? Like I'm like, okay I don't, that doesn't really interest me as much. Like alien invasion story, like, Danylo (37:23.976) Yeah. Danylo (37:45.768) And it's, I mean, I found, I'm thinking back about the previous section, like that is also how I felt with some of the three body sections. Like, it's cool that this might be possible, but like what, it's sort of like, what are we doing here in a way that like, I felt like by the end I was sort of like, okay, I get that you made this up, but that doesn't mean it needs to be in your book. I think there's a whole like, and I think, McIntyre (37:56.158) yeah. McIntyre (38:12.638) Yeah. Danylo (38:16.168) you know, a lot of amateur writers or like... This genre fiction seems rife with this sort of thing where people who are told, wow, you're so creative for like having a crazy idea that they think writing a story or a book is just writing down all your crazy creative ideas. And then I mean, people read it because like, they're wild, crazy, creative ideas. But like, that's sort of all they are. And that's sort of what feels like what this book is like. McIntyre (38:29.95) Yeah. McIntyre (38:39.838) Yeah. Danylo (38:49.256) or the ship gets sliced by nanomaterial and protons get unfolded into multiple dimensions and the video game is about solving a math problem and the people dehydrate and rehydrate and... McIntyre (38:58.174) Yeah. You know, maybe we should do, I've been thinking about this, like, listen, we might need to, I don't know if you still want to, but we said we were gonna read all three of these. I feel differently about that now, having finished the first one that I did. Danylo (39:10.632) Yeah. Danylo (39:15.752) I also have another - I also have - feel a little differently about that. I also have another reason to feel differently about that. McIntyre (39:22.27) But I was just going to say it reminded me. So I love Neuromancer. Part of the book by William Gibson came out in the 80s. And I think it's because it's like the author. It's just you and me, baby. It's just you and me. And I think the reason I like it so much is that it is like such a cool idea. But it's like the fact. God, it's so hard to explain. Danylo (39:34.184) I know, what are you, who are you telling? McIntyre (39:52.35) People out there who've read it know what I'm talking about. Like the act of reading it is also cool. Like the way just like William Gibson writes and communicates an idea, like the first line of Neuromancer is the sky above the port was the color of static or TV static tuned to a dead channel. It's like something like that. Like, holy like, and it's like, it's like an electric prose that in the book takes place in this like electric neon world. And so the whole time you're like really keyed in. And that also has a huge swath of it that takes place in a video game, because they're jacked into the matrix and hacking or whatever, and that's all made up bullshit too. But that is so compelling. Because when William Gibson is explaining something in a science fiction -y way, it feels mythologic, and it's like, holy shit, this electric, bumping... Danylo (40:44.712) Yeah. McIntyre (40:49.982) Almost like indecipherable prose is so... really lets me feel like how this main character who's like an insane hacker drug addict probably feels all the time and it gets across that through the writing. I understand this book is translated so I don't know if that's like part of it but it's just so flat. Everything about this book is so flat. Danylo (41:06.44) I think that might be part of it, but I also... I mean, I'm willing to give it a break on sentence by sentence, because I know, like, okay, my dog is crying in the distance. I'll be right back. McIntyre (41:20.478) I hear it. IT. Okay. Danylo (41:39.56) to take her out real quick and then give her a treat. It'll be like five minutes. McIntyre (41:42.366) Okay. Okay. Danylo (47:02.227) I don't know if you can hear me, but I'm back. Danylo (47:50.96) I am back, I don't know if you can hear me. McIntyre (48:36.51) Sorry, I was in the pooper. Danylo (48:38.416) Nice. Moving on podcast time. McIntyre (48:40.062) Nice! Yeah, PNIP time baby. Danylo (48:44.112) I've hopefully bought us at least 15 minutes. The biggest thing I have taken for granted my whole life is being able to work on a task for more than 45 minutes straight, which I've not been able to do in a very long, in like three weeks. It's crazy. McIntyre (48:47.71) Nice. McIntyre (48:55.038) Yeah. That's rough. We can have your dog as a special guest on the podcast. Danylo (49:02.96) She can't read English, but she can read Chinese. I think I was talking about the translation. I think I would I would I think partially some of like the I guess on a sentence level, if like it feels choppy, I guess I can give that up to the translation because I know I mean. McIntyre (49:04.606) Fuck, just, that's good that she could tell us if the writing is better than the original translation. Or the original text. McIntyre (49:13.982) You sure you were. Danylo (49:28.429) I'm not like fluent in Chinese or something but I like I did an app once and like it is pretty basic repetitive sentence structure some of the time, you know So I could see how a translation would be hard to capture that, you know in English potentially, but also like, you know, there's character stuff. That's like just not there, you know So, I don't know McIntyre (49:42.142) Yeah. McIntyre (49:49.406) Mm -hmm. Danylo (49:55.948) Yeah, I don't know. McIntyre (49:56.766) Do you want to on air, do you want to say the other reason why you're trepidatious? Danylo (49:59.564) yeah, I found out that Cixin Liu is a huge supporter of the Uyghur genocide in China and by this huge supporter, I mean he seems very pro everything that the Chinese government does possibly which is why they push him as like, hey big Chinese sci -fi writer McIntyre (50:07.614) Holy shit! Really? Danylo (50:28.908) Other people have brought up like hey would he is he's would he be safe to you know have an opposite opinion But the con but the the contrary part of that is in the one interview where he talks about it like he didn't say like no comment or like well, you know, he like went He had like reasons, which is you know a little bit of red flag McIntyre (50:56.254) Danylo (50:57.9) So I was gonna leave it up to you, like if you wanted to read more of these, I'd be okay with it, but also that was another reason to be like, I don't know. McIntyre (51:04.318) Eh. I'm good. Maybe we could read Neuromancer Nice. Danylo (51:10.572) fun I mean I just while you were well you were on the big old pooper I was seeing if yeah that's a little behind the scenes for you folks sometimes you know I edit it together where it doesn't seem like we both went poop but sometimes we do yeah you wouldn't know McIntyre (51:15.774) Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! McIntyre (51:24.51) but we do it at the same time, every 10 minutes actually. It's tough when you talk about, but you know, you walk into a Barnes and Noble and you know, people are like, it's actually the binding and the glue that makes you wanna poop. Well, that's why I gotta poop every time I'm in my house. I eat no food, I just eat books, but glue. Danylo (51:40.2) Yeah, I read a book that goes right through me, you know? McIntyre (51:42.91) my god, it goes right through me. It goes right to my brain. I can't guess it'd be these books. It goes right to my brain. Ugh. Danylo (51:48.104) The brains get so fat. my brain doesn't have a thigh gap McIntyre (51:56.35) God, and it's so in right now. God, I just wanna fuck my own brain. I'm sorry. Danylo (52:01.864) I just googled the second book and it also seems all the characters are sort of one dimensional and flat, so I think if that's an issue we're having, I wonder if maybe conceptually it's more interesting or goes to interesting places, but I don't know, I'm sort of okay if we don't do all of them. McIntyre (52:08.382) God damn it. McIntyre (52:17.054) I'm alright. Maybe one day. Maybe... But Danylo (52:21.672) Yeah, I don't know. Or maybe I'll read. I kind of want to read the second one and maybe I can do it and then talk about it. You know, but one episode book report. So overall, Mac, would you rate this book? McIntyre (52:27.294) You do book report. Yeah. McIntyre (52:40.35) I'd give it two Mistborns because it reminds me of the two thief meetings in the first Mistborn novel, I think. Danylo (52:45.192) okay. Danylo (52:50.024) I was gonna give it negative one Mistborns, but having thought about it and reflected even more, I will give it one Mistborn. McIntyre (52:57.566) Yeah. You know, it's funny, I went into this recording sort of feeling neutral on this book and by the end of the recording, I think I didn't like it very much. I think I didn't really like it. Danylo (53:04.68) Me too. Though I think it like it reads quickly like I enjoyed reading it and like that I think that's in the first half that central mystery of what's going on does a ton of work but then when it's revealed you're like it's space magic. It's space magic sort of clouded in physics talk. I also look this up a little bit like how McIntyre (53:10.942) It does. McIntyre (53:16.99) It is compelling. McIntyre (53:22.077) Okay, yeah McIntyre (53:29.726) Yeah, like bullshit physics. Danylo (53:32.932) Is this possible? How grounded are these physics? And I think the line seems to be like, he knows a lot about physics and like some of these things might theoretically be possible. Like there probably are multiple dimensions in a proton, you know, that's some area, that's some real physics thing, but like can aliens unfold it and make into a big supercomputer, you know, you know, probably not. McIntyre (53:51.422) Yeah. Danylo (54:00.899) I do have some one -star reviews. You know, all right. Which is funny because I was like disagreeing with some of these, but now I totally agree with a lot of them. Because the big thing is like the... there were some like thought -out one -star reviews about like the... McIntyre (54:03.39) please share. McIntyre (54:10.398) hahahahah Danylo (54:20.195) It seems like someone who was like, I'm really smart and have lots of funny ideas or fun ideas. And, there's also not a lot of character stuff. All right. Here we go. This is from Sank. Can I give it 0 .5 stars? Classical physics fail. Check. Biology fail. Check. The most anthropomorphized aliens since Star Trek. Check. Unbelievable human characters. Check. McIntyre (54:43.742) Hmm. Danylo (54:46.723) Gobbs of Chinese history and handwavium info dumps. Check. Tripe premise. Check. The history part is actually probably the part I like the most, but... it continues. How does voting no award for a Hugo category above a nominated novel works? It's all I want to know at this point. What? McIntyre (54:58.238) Yeah, me too. McIntyre (55:09.918) What the hell is going on in his mind? Danylo (55:12.131) I don't know what that meant. Alright. Here's from Donna. Well, y 'all know I'm all about character development. This book, of course we do Donna, of course. If we know one thing about you, we know you're all about character development. McIntyre (55:23.582) Yeah, we know, Don. We love that. man, Donna. We got, you got to come on the show and talk about the character development. Danylo (55:27.648) Donna and her character development. This book is all about the science, with almost no character development. I was able to stick it out because other reviewers had said it picked up after the first half. Not for me. After that, I figured I might as well finish it. Read a sci -fi book translated into English? Check. There. Now I can say I've done it. McIntyre (55:47.07) Also, I just want to say this real quick. Sorry, I sound so bored. I just am. I'm bored of this. I just don't care about this. So that's why I'm bored. Danylo (55:53.279) I've also yeah I was listening I was editing our the first episode of this Despite all our crazy audio issues were both also like alright, we got to say all the things that happened in the book I Think you for the first half we weren't besides like that central mystery. We weren't particularly inspired, but hey, it is a fun easy beach read I think Obama has it right. It's a fun easy beach read McIntyre (56:10.494) hahahahah McIntyre (56:17.79) well. McIntyre (56:21.694) He's right, he's 1000 % right. Danylo (56:23.679) If you don't think about it and forget it the second you put it down and you're not asking for too much, easy. McIntyre (56:30.014) Easy Beach Read. EBR. Danylo (56:31.455) Alright, here's the one star review from Dante. I almost done with this book. McIntyre (56:35.454) From his inferno? Danylo (56:39.615) I almost done with this book. I don't know if the other people who rated this have actually read a novel before as the only way this would get anything past two stars is if the author paid them for the review. This has to be one of the worst things I've read in my life. McIntyre (56:42.418) that's good. That's good. McIntyre (56:50.238) BOOM! McIntyre (56:55.038) Nice Dante. McIntyre (56:59.23) Okay, I don't know about that. Chill out, Dante. Danylo (57:02.111) You've probably been reading a lot of good shit and this is the worst thing you've ever read. Like, this isn't offensively bad, it's just kind of mediocre. McIntyre (57:06.302) That's true. So good for Dante. Danylo (57:13.343) And this is the most succinct review from Toland, one star. The problem with the three body problem is that it wasn't good. McIntyre (57:20.574) Nah. Well, I don't think we can do much better than that. The three body problem is that it sucks. That's awesome. Wow. Well, thanks Tolan. Wait a minute, Tolan? J -J -R -R Tolan Tolkien? Wow. Well. And I think that's our show. Perhaps our shortest episode? Maybe. Maybe. Danylo (57:24.255) That's the whole review. Tol... Tol... Toland? Tolkien? Danylo (57:41.146) So that's the three body problem. Danylo (57:47.354) I think so, it might be. We don't really, I mean, I really don't have anything to say. McIntyre (57:52.478) No, me neither. It's sort of, Sort of whatever. Danylo (57:54.554) It's clunky. It's, I don't know, yeah. McIntyre (57:58.174) And I can hear your dog is awake. So let's we can wrap it up here. Send us an email. We I'm not going to blow up their spot, but we have gotten fan mail. So shouts out. We have we have read it and you said very kind things and. Danylo (58:00.058) Yep. Danylo (58:08.282) Yeah! Danylo (58:13.562) It warmed the cockles of our hearts. McIntyre (58:16.798) And the person in the email suggested some songs from the Lord of the Rings musical, which I had listened to and they do fucking rule. That is awesome. It is awesome. So you can also send us an email at hardcoverhooligans .gmail .com. Follow us on Instagram at hardcoverhooligans. And please leave a five star review. Or leave a five star review with an unfunny Danylo (58:25.082) Me too. Yep. McIntyre (58:46.334) paragraph. So do the direct opposite of Danilo's one star review corner. Danylo (58:50.106) I also have to say Despite my hardest of trying to figure out where you can leave like a written review That's not just a star rating. I cannot find it So that is very possible that if you have left reviews, I have not seen them. It has to be like a desktop because I couldn't even figure to find it on my app. Then I guess we don't have any so never mind everyone McIntyre (59:07.998) It's on Apple Podcasts is where you can do that. no, it can be on your phone, I can show you. Okay, then yeah, no, we don't have any. Well, say hard everybody. Danylo (59:22.778) Stay hard and stay protoned up. I don't know. McIntyre (59:27.614) nice, nice, yeah stay, stay, stay three dimensional everybody. Danylo (59:32.214) and send those two proton computers at your mom's house, you know? McIntyre (59:36.798) Yeah, tell her I'm coming over. Tell her I'm on her way. Or on my way. Tell her your mom's on her way. Huh? Huh? Huh? The Trishularians are in my fucking head! The fucking photons are in my head! Danylo (59:40.758) Hahahaha We got to end humanity for its own good. McIntyre (59:51.742) We have to kill everybody and let's do it via science and not a big gun. Fucking stupid aliens. Yeah. Stupid alien. All right. Say hi to everybody. Danylo (59:55.99) Let's do it by fucking with our heads instead of killing them. Danylo (01:00:02.998) Bye.