This is Writing It, the podcast about academics and writing. I'm Rachel Gordon. Here we aim to make the process of writing and publishing a bit more transparent and a bit less overwhelming. Through conversations with editors and academics at all stages, from full professors to graduate students, independent scholars, and postdocs, we share stories, lessons, and helpful habits from our writing lives. We are very excited to get to speak with Jennifer Glazer today. Jennifer is an associate professor of English at the University of Cincinnati and chair of the English department, as well as affiliate faculty in Jewish studies and gender studies. Her book, Borrowed Voices, Writing and Racial Ventriloquism in the Jewish American Imagination was published in 2016. She works on race, Jewish studies, visual culture, and disability studies, and she is currently working or maybe finishing a scholarly book on Jews, disability, and modernity titled Jews and Disability After the Holocaust. In addition to scholarly work, Jennifer writes essays, short fiction, and cultural criticism, and she's working to expand one of her published narrative nonfiction pieces into a full-length manuscript on mourning and technology. She has published or has publications forthcoming in venues such as PMLA, Meles Safundi, American Literature, images, proof text, a bunch of other places, including the LA Review of Books, the New York Times, the Forward, and other more popular sites. So this is a lot of different kinds of writing. And I know this works differently for different kinds of scholars and academics. But can you tell us, were you always doing all of these different kinds of writing? Or is this a post-tenure move? How do you handle this diversity of writing? I was always doing both kinds of writing. I was someone who went to college and wasn't entirely sure that i wanted to be a professor from from day one by any means. I just knew that i loved to write and i loved anything that surrounded literature, that i would work somehow in that arena. And so i always vacillated a bit between writing creatively, writing essays, personal essays or fiction, and then writing scholarly work. And that used to worry me a great deal, actually, in graduate school in particular, because i thought i have to be, I have to be less of a dilettante i need to figure out exactly what kind of scholar I am. And it actually felt to me at the time, like something that caused anxiety, you know, that could be an impediment of some sort. And yet I did keep doing it in grad school as well. And it was in grad school that I wrote something that ended up becoming sort of one of my more popular pieces of literary nonfiction at the same time that I was trying to write my dissertation. So in a weird way, I was doing both. And it ended up, I mean, we can talk a lot more about this, but It ended up being the case that I feel like it hasn't in any way negatively impacted me to balance those two kinds of writing, even prior to tenure. And in fact, I think looking back, I wish I had been a lot less afraid than I was at the time to fully immerse myself in more public forms of writing at the time. But I think the fact that I had many, many wonderful advisors as a grad student, but they had received their own PhDs in a different time when there, I think, was more of a disjuncture between being a scholar and being a public writer or a creative writer. And so I felt like a lot of the advice I got was like, be careful, don't tread too far over that line, or it could undermine your sort of seriousness as a scholar. So it was something I found challenging, but I did do long before tenure and was part of my identity kind of all along. Yeah. I mean, it sounds like if you did that in grad school, it was kind of part of your performing as a scholar and writer to know, actually, this does work for me? Was part of that it was exciting and fun to write something non-academic? I think so. I think it was fun to write something non-academic. I think it's also the case that I've been thinking about this recently, like what sort of draws a connection between my scholarly work and some of the work that I do in other genres or forms. And I think that they're actually very similar in some ways, that in both cases, whatever I've tried to argue, I'm very motivated by emotion and my own very strong emotions and feelings and also a real interest in kind of how bodies do or don't fit with ideas of bodies and how we talk about bodies, how language is sometimes incommensurate to describe our experiences as embodied people, whether it's experience of death or illness or the experience of sex. So I've always been really drawn to that sort of emotional embodied writing. And then my own academic work is kind of like my academic way of circling those same issues, but doing it through scholarship. So I've still always written about race and the body and now my new work on disability. And so I think there's a lot of continuity actually between the two. And I don't know if I... It's a good question. Did I find... the kind of less scholarly writing more fun. I don't even know if I found it fun or if I just felt that it gave me some sort of, gave me something that the other work didn't entirely give me and that I really needed both to feel like a complete person or a complete writer in some ways. And I still feel that. And I still, as I said, feel sometimes a lot of doubts about which area I should be focusing more on and whether, you know, whether I'm still calculating the risk too much to myself of one form of writing over another. So when you talk about that risk, you alluded earlier that grad school mentors, professors had mentioned that there is some risk in this. What's your understanding of the realness of that risk? I think the risk for me is a couple of different kinds of risk. The risk in terms of my mentors and things was mostly, I think, about how or whether doing a lot of public writing or particularly what I was doing at the time, which is kind of memoir writing, personal writing, whether that, that sort of personal writing undermined one's seriousness as a scholar, which i can now see as having a lot of really problematic gendered and other issues to it as a criticism of that kind of work. But at the time i really did feel maybe maybe i'm not serious as a scholar that's why i'm so drawn to writing about myself and writing about my feelings and writing about my experiences. And so What if I do that and I'm not taken seriously on the job market as a professor? What if I'm not viewed as a scholar, but instead as someone who really has a foot in both worlds? Also, it's a strange thing when you write very personal material to know going into a job interview that people have read it. So as I mentioned, sort of the first big publication I had in grad school, in a very characteristically me way, everything that happens to me is very weird and extreme. So it'd be like, I won't publish something for a very long time. And then when I finally do, it will be in the New York Times and I will have a lot of attention from it and that will overwhelm me and I kind of will scurry away anxiously instead of really profiting from it entirely. So at the time I had an essay that I wrote when I was in graduate school because I had a partner at the time who passed away when he was very young. And that was such a defining experience in my life and felt like something that made grad school, which as you might know, is already a very bizarre experience on so many levels. And it's like, I remember my advisor who was very kind about the situation saying it's hard to get a cold in grad school, much less to sort of deal with a massive, you know, emotional experience like that kind of loss. And so I think that I felt really compelled at the time to do writing about that experience, whether it fit into my, my larger sort of scholarly life or not. And so I wrote this piece, it was a long time ago. So I was in my 20s at the time, that feels like a distant, a very distant planet, but I submitted it to this contest that I had seen for Random House called 20-something essays by 20-somethings. And so my essay was chosen for it and I was very excited, but also a little bit anxious because it was really personal. It was about the death of my boyfriend at the time, as well as about our sex life and sort of missing that in in-depth and sort of different kinds of embodiment and it was very personal and very graphic in some ways and so I thought oh how will it be to have this essay which was in the Random House Anthology and then in Modern Love potentially be read by you know future employers who might be less interested in hearing about you know my sex life or something before they interview me for a job at American Lit or Jewish Studies so I was very aware of that but And I think that was what some of my advisors were alluding to. Like, don't feel like you have to push too much on that part of your profile. People might be interested, but they might be a little overwhelmed by it. You know, go with your scholarly work and talk about what you've done there. And if it seems like the right kind of thing, you can mention that you do this other kind of work. But I didn't do that, really. I did mention that other work. Not as prominently. I always would say something like, you know, although less... important to my identity. My secondary interest is in writing this kind of work. But truthfully, I've always felt that just speaking of the job market or my existence as an academic has only benefited from that writing. Every interview I've ever done, people have asked about it in a very positive way. I've been interested in incorporating that kind of writing more into their curriculum. And the job that I have and have had for a very long time is in an English program that has a large graduate program in creative writing. And so I think that one of the reasons that I was successful on the job market and it was that really bad time when the job market started to really kind of hit, go downward. I was hired in 2008, so maybe I just kind of made it over the hump there was because I had this dual profile. It was very clear that that was what they liked about me and why they thought I would fit in in a department that was negotiating its own identity as as a literary and creative community. So that's my very long answer to your question, but that was one kind of risk that I was worried about that turned out not to be, I think, as much of a risk as I had feared. But there are other risks to it. I still think that I fear the riskiness of the level of exposure that personal essay writing has to it. And in the wake of my Modern Love essay, which this was hilarious, because I was a grad student and, you know, a dork and no one ever cared about what I wrote beyond the five other people who wrote about American Jewish literature. But I had agents call me and I signed with an agent and everyone was, you know, talking about the book that I would write, an extended memoir about this experience. And for some reason I had, I just couldn't do it at the time. And I, it's something I feel ambivalent about. I think it could have been, it was kind of like a crossroads and and I took one path and not the other. And I think I did it because of the risk that I felt personally in being so exposing of myself and how it would affect my life. And so, you know, even now I still feel like if I'm honest, I think that my personal essay writing is probably what I am best at. And yet I don't devote as much time to it as I sometimes would like because it does feel riskier to me than scholarship. Yeah. Thank you for mentioning that. Yeah. I mean, that's, it's, kind of you to share that experience. That must be difficult in a way, knowing how much you love that kind of writing and having had what sounds like kind of an amazing opportunity that many people sort of dream of, an agent who is interested in your work. Does it seem like something you might get back to at a later point in your career, probably? Yeah, I think so. And I could honestly make it now in my career that I did that. I feel like this department, again, has always embraced those different parts of my experience. And even when I was first hired, I remember talking to my chair at the time and him saying, you know, truly, if you want to turn yourself to that and that be your tenure project, that's something we can talk about. You know, I'm not averse to you developing that part of your identity. So my problem has not been being discouraged. You know, it's very much more of an internal neurosis problem of a different kind, which is just that it's somehow been harder for me to embrace taking on that, to write a full length book about that experience, for instance. And it is also really strange now, so many years after it took place, especially, you know, I have a child who's almost 10 years old with my current partner who I've been with for almost 20 years at this point, and who I met a little over a year after my partner at the time had died. So it's on one hand, my life is in such a different place that to revisit this incredibly dark you know, in difficult period is sometimes hard to do. And at the same time, I think there's quite a lot of unfinished business there that I feel drawn to at the same time. So what I've been doing more since is doing sort of small essay bits that are in some ways still very personal. In most cases, apparently, I just like to write about people dying in different ways. I've written a lot about my mother who passed away and my kind of obsession with my mother, which I continue to have. I've written about my grandmother recently. And so I like dead people. I like writing about my favorite dead people. And I don't think I've stopped that, but I never somehow could just take on classic. I guess part of this is my own, I mean, maybe my own self-criticism. Maybe this is where the academic part of me doesn't serve me well. But I remember at the time that I published the original article and I had met with an editor too, because the The book of essays came from Random House. And so Random House said, well, we wanted, we would want first, the first look at your book that I would be like, I'm clearly writing a book. And they said, but I want you to know. And it was just, it was kind of fun. They were like, but we want you to know, we don't want like an academic ebook about, like, we know what happens when someone's kind of an academic, like that you're going to try to write a book, you know, a nonlinear fragmented book about mourning. And that's not what sells. And this, at that point, it was a time when memoirs were selling very well, I think. So they're like, so what we want, would be a memoir and you would have to kind of part of the selling of that would be the selling of yourself and your story. And I found that hard. And I think that's where my academic kind of more introverted, you know, wanting to kind of go back to my studies, not being as comfortable with the idea that I would be doing a lot of trying to do a lot of publicity, talking about myself and my relationship started to scare me, I think. And I think I would have been a lot less scared if I were, were able at the time to say, I'm just going to write what I want to write. and not try to imagine a market for it, which is what i did when i wrote the original essay. I didn't really care because i was just very sad and i was like, I want to write this essay. But suddenly i was thinking instead of the market and should i just write a woe is me style memoir about, about my relationship and, and what kind of idiot wouldn't do that? I'll have a book contract with random house and an agent and i'll actually make money from writing and i will ditch my, ditch my life, you know, as an academic going wherever a job might be and i can move back to new york city and, you know, I had a lot of fantasies about what that would mean. And yet that was something that i found just difficult to do, to put myself in in that mode of writing straight, you know, linear memoir of that sort. So again, I never know if i made the right decision in not doing that. But something in me just, I kind of then just continued to do my dissertation and went on the job market and then you know, went into this other life of being a professor and a parent and doing other kinds of writing. But all along the way, I have continued to do this other sort of writing, if not as not as as fully as I might have had I written that book and made that my my career path instead of a scholarly path. So I think I think I remain. But this is sort of my natural state, an ambivalent kind of person as a scholar and as a writer of other kinds of forums. I like to have a toe in different worlds. So I do feel like I might turn my attention back to it as a full-length work at some point, but it would be one of the annoying academic style forms of writing that Random House probably rightfully said, people don't want to read that. They want to read, you know, they want to have a feature in People magazine, you know, where you look sad and talk about your boyfriend dying. So yeah, so that it was a very strange experience. I'm very much at odds with what it's like to be an academic. Whereas, you know, not everyone is interested in our work and we struggle to find an audience and you exist in a fairly insular world in certain ways. So it's been interesting to navigate those differences, I think. It's also good to hear that it sounds like you've gotten positive feedback from your institution, from potential employers about this more popular writing. I'm curious, since you've been an academic for at least a dozen years, as someone who's probably been on search committees, do you also notice from the other side that there's an interest or at least an okay reception for folks who are doing more popular writing? I do. I think that I have noticed a change in that that's more and more attractive to people. Certainly if I'm on a search committee, I think that's the case. And I do feel like my peers... I think my peers still want someone to be a rigorous scholar if, for instance, they're looking for a literary scholar or what have you. But that it's exciting to see people with a foot in public writing, whether it's in kind of personal creative writing or fiction or whatever, or the other sort of side of it, which is more like public intellectual writing, I think has really grown. And that sense that there's some great value in not writing for a rarefied audience. I think that is definitely something that has changed in the academy from the time that I went, you know, first went on the job market to now. And, and I do think, you know, meaning writing op-eds, writing for news publications, writing essays for venues with wider general readerships I think is, is really something that's very embraced. And I took an amazing workshop last summer that I'm actually thinking of trying to bring here in a kind of mini version maybe as chair of the department, I suddenly am like, if I have control of the coffers, I can do all sorts of things. But I did something through AJS, through the Association for Jewish Studies. They have something called Writing Beyond the Academy, which is a summer workshop where I think it was maybe 10 people, maybe 12 people who are scholars primarily, but who have an interest in or a background in doing other forms of writing come for a week maybe or four days or something. And we worked with the really lovely, wonderful journalist, Samuel Friedman, who teaches at Columbia and wrote famously a number of books, but Jew versus Jew, which I loved when I read it back in the day for my dissertation and used it in some of my work on culture. But he was a wonderful teacher and did an amazing job of sort of speaking to these academics. But I felt he generally respected academics. And one of the things he said, which I thought was really important was, academics should be the people writing about the topics that they specialize in for general audiences. And you are the people who can get that right in really important ways. And so, you know, you do a disservice almost to the world by not trying to write for wider audiences. And that was lovely because I think as an academic, you're used to apologizing for your purported, you know, social capital or which we don't have or whatever it is that we supposedly have that our respective governors might think that we have in Florida and Ohio. But it was lovely to have someone who's a journalist and does a different kind of writing who really, I feel like respected academics and was like, this is amazing thing. You have these areas of expertise and what if you can be the people that are writing for the Atlantic and the New York Times and the Washington Post instead of people who might not actually know a whole lot about what they're writing. So that was a really lovely experience. He was a great teacher. Did that workshop you took give you any kind of practical steps for moving forward with more popular writing? It did. It was really, he was great at sort of looking at different forms of public writing, from the op-ed to essays that might be about various topics, but be in sort of more public interest, kind of journals or magazines. And it was really funny because I don't know if it was just the instruction that we were getting or the excitement of all being, you know, in a group where we were talking about these things, that right afterwards, we were on an email chain, we all published, I think every single person in the group all published something in a public kind of venue very soon afterwards. And then we sort of have slowly like, we would write and say, I got this piece put in X, I got, you know, and then slowly that has like faded away a little bit. But it was after that, that I wrote a piece that I got into the forward. I hadn't written, I had written op-eds. I had an op-ed column in college in my, in the Columbia Spectator, but I had never written that post-college written in that venue. So it was actually kind of interesting and fun to work with an editor at the forward at something that is related to my academic work, but then writing about it for a more public audience. And I was definitely inspired to do that by the workshop that we did. That's great to hear. There's two questions that we ask all guests, and one of them is if there's a piece of advice you wish you had known early in your career about writing or publishing. I think it would be to take risks, to not feel that you have to follow a very specific linear path when it comes to writing. That regardless of our our idea of being an academic. There is nobody who isn't interested in good writing that is for a public audience alongside your scholarship if the writing that you're doing is, you know, interesting and out there in a venue people can read. So that I guess my advice would be don't feel afraid to take those risks and to push against the idea that you can only have one identity as a writer would be something I think I would definitely tell people to do. Also to take a contract with Random House and write the book when you're 28. eight instead of three. That might be my other advice, but I didn't follow it. But I do think, I do still follow the advice of trying to recognize that to feel like a whole person. I need these different kinds of work in my life. And if you're someone who feels that too, that I really don't think it harms one's career in the least. And that's an okay risk to take even as a graduate student. Yeah. I mean, I'm still really compelled by that story you told. And one of the things I think about is that important issue you brought up of how much exposure you want. It made me think, yeah, I guess you do. Maybe if you're thinking you're continuing to be a professor, then I guess I would want to consider, am I comfortable with a search committee having read this piece? And most of the time, it seems like something that talks about my humanity beyond my research would be a fine thing for colleagues to know. But yeah, maybe having that question in our head helps us figure out that how much exposure am I comfortable with question. Yeah, I think that's really true. And I, I think that's something probably certainly people whose primary identity is in memoir or literary nonfiction have to navigate a lot. I was on a hiring committee a number of years ago for a position in literary nonfiction, and we were reading all sorts of books from those that were somewhat more journalistic and maybe had a bit of personal in them to like very, you know, devastating memoirs about people's lives. And it was interesting because I don't feel like it really made us uncomfortable to feel like, as you said, that we would read about the humanity of someone and then meet them in an interview, that we could still see them as someone who could, you know, live different, could inhabit different positions. They could be a somewhat more restrained, you know, professor in one moment and also have written, you know, a really intense memoir about substance abuse or, you know, that those things can coexist and They're part of what certainly humanities scholars, I think, like about being humanities scholars is that we're drawn to those kind of stories. So I think it is, though, important to recognize just what your own limits are. And if you're not wanting a lot of your personal life out there, then if you want to do public writing, the personal essay might not be the form. Maybe it is more like an op-ed or more public writing about popular culture or trying to write for... you know, our own, we all have our fantasies of like the New Yorker, you know, a space where you're writing rigorous sort of interesting, vaguely scholarly work that isn't so self-exposing, but is for a more public audience. So I think that's another way to go into that. If you're knowing, I don't really want to, I don't want everyone to know my business. That is another way to do it too. Another question we ask is if there is a writing practice or habit that's been working for you. It's a really good question. I would like to pretend that I have some sort of very clear writing practice. I have many people who surround me who do, and they write between the hours of this and this. And I'm always reading about different writers' processes and thinking, wow, that would be amazing. I should wake up at four and write before my daughter gets up or something. And I never do any of those things. I do think I just, I write, I will be honest that one aspect of my writing tends to be very deadline oriented. I am someone that benefits a lot from seeing a call for a piece of writing. So if there's, so the most, so most recently I published something in the, is it the AJS review that was the mother issue. And I published sort of a person, a really short personal essay piece in there. And it was, I did it because I saw a call for this special issue on mothers. And I know how much I love writing about my mother and my grandmother. And I had some things percolating in my head for a while that I had written little pieces of in different moments about fatness and my mother and my grandmother and me, and And I thought to myself, maybe this is a good moment to compel myself, you know, to complete this. And I actually, it was funny when I was writing that piece, this is another, I don't know if it's a piece of advice, but something I've realized about my own writing practice is that I'm really drawn to write about things I'm afraid of, things that scare me a little bit to write about. If something doesn't feel like there's a little bit of a challenge to me in writing about it, then I don't seem to be very interested. So it's easier for me to compel myself, ironically, to write about shame or something very dark or something that I feel ambivalent about because those things are interesting to me. And I feel like that was an example of, I thought, oh, I really, I kind of want to write about fatness and I also really don't want to write about fatness. It's terrible. And what kind of a scourge on women's lives to think about these things. And then at the same time, for that reason, I kind of really wanted to write about it. And something similar happened when I wrote about my boyfriend's death so many years ago and wrote about sex and his death. I was very drawn to that because there was something uncomfortable about it. And I almost think I wanted people to be uncomfortable about it because I was so uncomfortable with my own experience. And what I wanted was to convey a very unsentimental kind of embodied experience of loss rather than something more sanitized or sentimental. And so similarly, I thought, I'm going to write about fatness. I'm going to write about fatness and let me do this, even though I don't like doing this entirely. So I guess that's the other aspect of my writing. I'm very drawn to things that make me a little uncomfortable to write about. That's interesting. I'm curious with this more recent personal essay about your mother, what What was the after feeling, especially for listeners who might be wondering, okay, what are the benefits of doing that kind of personal writing, especially in that case where it's actually in a venue where your academic colleagues were invited to read it? I mean, sort of similar to my many experiences of writing personal essays that I felt simultaneously a little bit vulnerable. And it was funny because that issue came out in tandem with the AJS this year. piece of writing with other people. And I have a lot of friends there. And I was walking around and we got our little bags, our swag bags that had the new issue. And I thought, oh, great. I wrote this and I didn't realize it would be given out to everyone at the AJS. I thought, maybe people won't really read it. They'll skim through. And so I was like, oh, people will actually read this. But in the end, that's also nice because since then I've had comments from different people who I don't know, who are part of AJS in one way or another have written and said, I really like this piece and I want to talk to you about it or people who I wouldn't expect to it spoke to in some way. So I think that there is that initial moment of vulnerability, like seeing the actual physical, the physical journal and thinking, oh, this is going to happen right now. People will look at this. But then I think it's also a very moving thing to connect with people through writing. It's my favorite thing about teaching, you know, watching students read something that really speaks to them. And so the idea that I could write something that might have that effect on someone else is very moving, if also, you know, vulnerable in different ways. That's great to hear. I wonder, Jennifer, if you have anything else you want to share with us about writing or publishing in your academic life? I think the only thing I would share, too, maybe as another piece of advice would be to not be afraid to ask people you know who write for venues you're interested in for help. I think as academics, again, we find that very embarrassing, that you wouldn't necessarily go to someone and say, hey, how did you get your work published in this journal? It feels like social climbing or some sort of disturbing thing, but that it's very common in public writing to know someone and say, hey, I saw that you wrote something for the New York Times. Do you know an editor there? I have something I want to pitch. And that's sort of mind-blowing I think to us as academics sometimes, but it is very real. And the notion that we don't have to be afraid to reach out and ask for people to help us or to network is something I think that's kind of revolutionary for academics to do. So that would be another part of it. And then, as I said, just to not be afraid to be vulnerable. If that's something that is meaningful to you, that I think a lot of us become academics for a whole host of reasons, but I think probably amongst them is the desire to sublimate some emotions in a different kind of affect of, you know, contemplation and study and distance from things that could overwhelm you. And so that it can be exciting to do forms of writing that don't let you keep a distance from your subject of any kind. And that really, you know, plunge you into that, into that emotion that we may or may not want to to sublimate as i said. And also i would echo the, finally, just the the thing that samuel friedman which is that I think academics have something important to contribute despite the fact that we're so often under attack for all sorts of reasons. And so to not let that silence us and that we should be participating in public spaces of all kinds with our writing. So that would be my other thought that we shouldn't slink away to our hidey holes and hang out, but really should insist upon writing for people to read. In terms of that vulnerability Impulsed or moving towards that space. Is that something that you do in your academic writing at all also? That's a really good question. I think I get at things that I'm interested in emotionally still through my academic writing, but I don't think that, and I actually feel interested in what that would look like to, to be more vulnerable in my academic writing. And in fact, when I was reading, for instance, Sarah Imhoff's book, her new book on Jesse Sampter, and she sort of had a lot about her practice of writing. as sort of an embodied practice and who was she and how was she as a person in this book that was very much about embodiment and disability. I found that really interesting and I would like to work more to incorporate that into my critical writing. And I love Saidiya Hartman, who is a Black Studies scholar. We were lucky enough to bring her here for a conference and she was amazing. But her notion of critical fabulation is one that I'm very drawn to, of sort of what do you do, what kind of writing can you do if you're willing to look at the archive or those who are absent from the archive and to give them voice through creative means? You know, what are the ethics of that, but what can, can that be a really productive and interesting space as well? So I don't think I do that enough, but I would be really excited to figure out how to do more that integrated the two parts of my, of my self. So if anyone has ideas how to do that, they can tell me. They can tell me how. Great. Thank you so much, Jen. This was really a lot of fun. I really appreciate your taking the time for us. Absolutely. I really appreciate it, too. Thanks for listening to Writing It, the podcast about academics and writing, sponsored by the Center for Jewish Studies at the University of Florida. Visit our podcast description to find out how to contact us and send us your questions about academic writing and publishing. Follow us on social media at Writing at Pod and subscribe to us so you never miss an episode.