This is Writing It, the podcast about academics and writing. I'm Rachel Gordon. Here, we aim to make the process of writing and publishing a bit more transparent and a bit less overwhelming. Through conversations with editors and academics at all stages, from full professors to graduate students, independent scholars, and postdocs, We share stories, lessons, and helpful habits from our writing lives. Hello, if you're enjoying writing it or feel like you're gaining some new insight or tips about academic writing and publishing, we sure would appreciate your taking a moment to rate and review us. That helps other folks find us too. Today, we're speaking with Sandra Fox. Sandra is the Goldstein-Goren Visiting Assistant Professor of American Jewish History. at New York University and director of the Archive of the American Jewish Left in the Digital Age. 
Her research interests include American Jewish history, the history of youth and childhood, Yiddish culture, and the history of sexuality. Her book, The Jews of Summer, Summer Camp and Jewish Culture in Post-War America, published by Stanford University Press, addresses the experiences of youth in post-war Jewish summer camps and the place of intergenerational negotiation in the making of American Jewish culture. So congratulations, Sandra. The book is very new. I think it's just celebrating its six-month anniversary now. Yeah, about that. So we're speaking with Sandra about book promotion. And actually, a few friends of the podcast suggested we speak with Sandra because they mentioned that there has been a really nice buzz around your first book, both before and after publication. And I think it's fair to say that it was probably more than what we often see for academic books and maybe especially for a first book to give listeners an idea. 
There was a nice NPR story. The book was excerpted in Slate, I think, and it's already been mentioned and reviewed on several popular and academic sites. I also remember seeing on social media that there was a very creative book launch in New York that leaned into the summer camp theme. in a really fun way. And of course, a lot of this buzz and publicity has a lot to do with your writing a deeply researched book in a very absorbing style about a topic that resonates for a lot of readers, maybe especially after the worst of the pandemic, when camp and memories of camp meant even more. But there are always other factors too. So I wonder if you can tell us about how you envisioned 
book promotion for The Jews of Summer, what you wanted to organize and what you felt you could do on your own and in what ways you might have collaborated with others, including other organizations you had affiliations with, to get the word out there. Yeah. You know, in reflecting before we got on, I always say I don't know what it would be like to write a book that doesn't have this sort of automatic, very enthusiastic audience. So I want to put an asterisk next to everything I say because I'm aware, you know, part of this is stuff that I did and help I got along the way. And part of it is that Jewish camp has such a following. I would even call it a cult following that almost no matter what I did, there was going to be some degree of this. 
I think some degree. I, you know, I think. Writing a first book, you know, this began as a dissertation and then really evolved. And over time, I really found my voice in writing and also got more confident about how to write something that I thought had crossover potential. I still, you know, I see Amazon reviews that are like, this is overly scholarly and, you know, whatever. But I think overall for an academic book, it's accessible. And so once I made those efforts, I really wanted to make sure that it got out there and that people would know about it. I wanted to make sure that it was at an accessible price for most people, which did not take a lot of arguing with Stanford. 
I think the original price they wanted to make it for paperback was $30. And I got it down to $28. And they explained that quickly, you know, on sites like Amazon, it would get pushed closer to $25. And that I have offer codes and things like that. So that, you know, effectively, lots of people are not even having to spend $28 on it. And so, you know, I think it's just been... It's been kind of a journey. You know, I don't think I knew exactly how it would go. I had a sense that it would have a bit of a life of its own, but not to the extent that it has. I did not expect NPR, The Brian Lehrer Show, Slate and Helen Peterson. 
I really didn't. So, you know, I think that part of it has been getting the word out there. Like, I think my book launch party actually was sort of an interesting experience. beginning to it and part of what gave it legs. That's not why I did a creative book launch. I did it because I wanted to have a really fun book launch. But it did turn out to kind of generate some enthusiasm and some press. So I'll explain that if you want, what the book launch was. So, you know, if you write a book about Jewish summer camp or any summer camp, and so much about camp is about play and even role play and simulation, I thought... you know, why not make the book come to life just the way that the camps I studied tried to make different elements of Jewish history or contemporary Jewish life come to life for campers. 
So it was very meta. And the idea was to do an entire month of Jewish summer camp in one night. And, you know, I totally relied on my friends for this. Friends ran every single activity. I had a ton of volunteer work, you know, into this. And luckily, my friend Rabbi Matt Green at Congregation Bethlehem in Park Slope was super excited. He runs kind of 20s, 30s stuff, and he was so excited to help make this vision a reality. So we took over their Hebrew school area and just made it happen. And so, like I said, that was really just because I wanted to do something really fun to celebrate this huge moment. I mean, the first book, this was with me for nearly a decade, and I wanted to have a good time celebrating it. 
But I do think, you know, that did end up generating some press that led to other things. So I I would say that doing an interesting book event could be a good start, but not every topic has kind of an obvious, doesn't offer an obvious template for doing so. When you say it led to some good press that might've led to other things, can you tell us more about that? Yeah, I mean, in general, I think my experience with press and media is that one thing leads to another, leads to another in an almost algorithmic or exponential way to some extent. So the book party is, the editor-in-chief of the JTA, the Jewish Telegraphic Agency, came. That's also the New York Jewish Week now. 
And other people from, I think, the Jewish Week. And the editor-in-chief of the Forverts, the Yiddish Forward, came and also made sure to write about it for the English Forward. And so those were the first two bits of press. And it was very kind of them to come. I do also know them personally. You know, a lot of this might also be that I'm in New York and I know a lot of these people, I'm going to be honest. So they came and they wrote articles. And the JTA, this is a good thing for anyone in Jewish studies to know, but this could be true about any sort of news outlet that sells articles to other outlets, is that the JTA is like the Reuters of the Jewish world. 
So if you do an interview with the JTA, that goes out to every local Jewish newspaper. And I think there are other kind of press affiliates that do similar things that might be worth paying attention to, even if they're not the biggest names in media, because they actually get a lot of eyeballs. And then after the party, I don't actually remember the timeline, but at some point I spoke to a mentor of mine from my undergraduate program. I went to Eugene Line College, the new school for liberal arts. That's actually not what it's called anymore, but Eugene Line College. And I had this wonderful professor who I've stayed in touch with, Natalia Melman Petruzzella, who wrote a book called Classroom Wars about American education. 
And it's often, you know, quoted in the media, and then she's had a podcast. And she also just came out with this amazing book on the history of American fitness. And so we met and she said, you know, I think I'd like to put you in touch with the person from Slate. And then that, you know, that snowballed into everything else. So it's hard because I don't know, I guess my advice there is keep in touch with your mentors and think about who in academia that you know, has successfully, you know, marketed their books or had kind of like a public crossover moment. and ask them for help. Yeah, this sounds like one of those great stories where, you know, friendship, cultivating our friendships and relationships, it has all sorts of good effects, you know, friends help us out in these ways. 
And that happened here. I wanted to follow up on something you mentioned earlier, which was actually being able to get the press to lower the price a bit, which is something that probably many listeners feel that or expect that a first time author wouldn't you know, have the power to do. How do you think you were able to do that? I think I just convinced them that one Jewish camp was, you know, had an almost cultish following and that Jews buy books. I mean, they knew Jews buy books. They knew that Jewish studies books have some more crossover ability perhaps than in certain other fields. But I really had to drive home the fact that the people who go to Jewish camp and who really love Jewish camp are really pretty easy targets for marketing this book. 
and that I would hustle for it, that I would do the work to get the word out. And I have, I think I've followed up. I mean, I don't know anything about sales. That's the other interesting thing about academic publishing. I won't know anything for a year. I have vague numbers because I have a friend who works in publishing who's looked things up for me, but it only captures some percentage of sales that doesn't include direct from the publisher, independent bookstores, Kindle, which I think are three of the biggest ways that I've gotten people to buy the book because I've tried to keep people away from Amazon. So I have some sense, but I don't have a huge sense. But the press says they're happy. 
So I think I've held up my end of the bargain. And maybe, you know, maybe the difference between 30 and 28 just isn't that big of one. And they were happy to do it because I pushed nicely. You know, I was nervous, too. I remember even though I have a good relationship with my editor, I was very nervous to push on that because it is kind of a bold move as a junior scholar, honestly. But I just felt like, yeah, I know how big this audience is. And I know that I have, you know, I have connections to the Jewish media, at least, which was going to help me out a lot. Like, I also had a podcast for many years. It still kind of exists that gave me connections to the Jewish press. 
So I felt confident about being able to reach out to those connections with the publication of this book and at least reach the Jewish community. And this seems like an important point that you brought up that you did. You kind of made the case to the press that you would hustle, which maybe some listeners might think I didn't know that they would care or believe me, but it sounds like that was effective. Well, I think what I've learned about academic publishers is that their marketing staff is just running on very thin. They don't have a lot of people to work on marketing for all of the books they publish. So if you're making major efforts to get the word out, you're seriously helping them because they just can't give books that much time. 
You know, I only have experience with Stanford, but it's a great press. And even still, I can tell that they're totally overwhelmed. And I don't remember the exact timeline, but they really only give you like... They give you serious support in the first month, maybe. And then after that, it dwindles. So... if someone is kind of continuing, if the author is continuing to carry the torch and make sure that the word gets out, they're really appreciative. So I do think if you make the case to your press that you want to do that and you can do that, you know, whether that's because you've already written op-eds before or been a guest on podcasts, you know, that's also something I would say is if you're early in your career, try to already be making connections with 
the press or other forms of media around your research, around other things you do if you have other projects, because that will really help you. And then you can go to the press and say, hey, your publisher, that version of the press, and say, hey, I'm really going to hustle. And these are my connections. I'm not just saying this. I'm also able to do this. Yeah. And so the serious support that you felt you got from your press earlier on or in that first month, what did that mean exactly? What that meant? Well, I think... A few months before publication, they sent me a marketing questionnaire. And I had to fill that out and think about where I wanted them to send books for review or just to catch the eye of a producer or something like that. 
And in the case of Stanford, I think they just sent books automatically to all the places I listed. Great. And that was academic and non-academic outlets. So that's the major form of support is that they just send the books automatically. Mm-hmm. After that, I mean, besides that, they were, you know, supportive in the sense of if I wrote an excerpt, sorry, not wrote an excerpt, if I wanted to give Slate, let's say, an excerpt or someone else an excerpt, they had to do a permissions process for that. And they helped me think through, you know, which excerpt do you want to give to Slate versus which one do you want to give to this religious studies website and just kind of parse out all those decisions. 
They have offered a you know, a number of times to talk to me about, you know, to think about the questions that might be asked in a live interview or to read an op-ed that I'm writing. Oh, wow. Yeah. And so there's a lot of willingness to help. In my case, I don't want to throw them under the bus. They've done a great job. But I think in my case, most of the media I got was from other connections. And that just might be because, you know, these presses have to try to get all of these media and academic journals and all these places to pay attention to all kinds of books. And I'm sure a lot of the, their emails just, you know, get deleted or barely looked at versus, you know, if I have a connection to someone who has a connection to someone it's late, it's more likely that I'm going to get through. 
So I would say none of the major media has come through Stanford directly, which is to say like, yeah, don't rely, you know, don't rely on marketing at your press, even though they're wonderful. They have magical powers. You know, they, I, experience may vary. It could be that other presses are totally different. I think something that was like a little interesting, I don't think this should be a factor for people in choosing a press, but you know, I'm on the East coast, I'm in New York and Stanford's on the West coast. So they have more connections to West coast institutions and West coast media. Whereas I wanted to have access to all sorts of New York institutions in New York media. So for, 
I have an event coming up at the Scrabble Cultural Center in Los Angeles, and Stanford is co-sponsoring that, which is great. But when I did my book event in New York or when I do things in New York, like try to get on WNYC, there was a limit to kind of what they were able to do. Or, you know, I asked, you know, do you have any connections to New York media to get word out about my book party? And they didn't. But maybe they do for the West Coast. So I don't know. I don't think that should be a major factor in anyone's thinking about witch press, but it was interesting and kind of like, oh, okay. So it's something to know. 
So I think that it's... I'm really surprised by how much I get asked to give talks and no one names a number. There's an allusion to an honorarium, and then it seems like it's up to me to prod and ask. And I also get asked a lot what my number is, and I... really don't know how to answer that anymore and wish that things were more transparent. I think in academic settings where it's a named lecture for some family or foundation, usually it is a set amount. And then it's just about asking what that set amount is. But when it comes to other places, like in my cases, synagogues or JCCs or other kind of Jewish institutions, it's It seems like the Wild West and but also impossible because I can name one number and then they're like, I roll. 
I'm not paying you that. And they're offended almost by the number. But there's a certain amount of time and energy that goes into traveling to all these places. And it's not and I also have a full time job. I mean, it's not it's not reasonable for me to say yes for everything for any number. So, yeah, not a lot of transparency. And I've had, you know, I don't think I'm asking for an absurd amount of money at all. I'm basing it based on what universities have paid me. But I've still had, you know, places drop off because maybe they thought, oh, junior scholar will pay her $200 to come out to Connecticut to do this. Well, you know, I don't necessarily want to do that for $200. 
Yeah. Once you pay for the train ticket and, you know, the cab and this and that. Yeah. Agreed. I mean, actually, even in the university setting, I've been hearing a real range of honorarium amounts. Have you felt that this was worth it to you to spend time on book promotion and events? I think it's a gamble. I mean, I'm not doing it for money. That's obvious. I mean, even if we sell, you know, 10,000 books, which is insane in academia, I don't think I'm going to make a lot of money. I think in my case, it's worth it because I'm already kind of standing or treading a line between academia and and the public or doing something more public or digital humanities or something else. 
And I've been kind of in that weird place for a long time. So I'm sort of betting that, yeah, like having, yeah, having spent time and getting broader notoriety is helpful. It opens doors, you know, it leads to bizarre potential opportunities that pop up. So no regrets right now. I definitely sort of wish that I was further ahead with my next project. But I also don't think I was actually going to have the energy right after finishing the first book anyway. So it feels like this was a productive way to spend the first, you know, six months after its publication. But yeah, it's a gamble. I don't I don't know. I don't know what this is going to lead to. But I don't think it could lead anywhere bad. 
Yeah, I mean, and I personally, everyone feels different. But I just I love the idea of having some time to celebrate. It's arrival into the larger world um and it seems like some of these events let you do that with community and friends i'm also wondering related to the this time question i'm not sure what your schedule was like when the book was coming out but i mean were you teaching did it how did the spending time on book promotion work with your other academic responsibilities at that time Yeah, I was very tired. Summer has been nice to me, nicer to me without teaching. My job is part teaching. I teach one class a semester, which is not too bad at all. But it's also a new class every semester right now. 
So it's, you know, a new prep, new syllabus, whatever. And then I run this new archive project at NYU, which is the kind of thing that is 50% of my job, but could easily be 200% of my life. It's the amount of work is endless if I let it take over my life. So I would say February and March were really tiring because I was getting, yeah, kind of that early bump of press. And then there's been some waves. It kind of, I think it died down a little bit by April. So I was able to finish out the semester in a more calm place. And then there was a summer bump because all of these places, I guess, were waiting to, you know, have a timely article or interview with me. 
And so then June was crazy, but luckily I wasn't teaching. And Yeah, it's been I will it's not gonna lie. It's definitely been a distraction from work, but I don't. Yeah, I don't know. I think I'm really lucky that I think the people that that I work with support me in this. And I think academics, especially if you don't have tenure or you're not even on the tenure track, as I am not, you have to do what's good for you sometimes. And for me right now, I love my job, but I only have two more years in it unless we raise money. And maybe all of the interviews I'm doing will lead to someone hearing about this project and raise the money, right? 
It's not totally clear that building up my, I don't know what the word is, my, I hate the word brand. I hate all these words. It's very possible that me doing press and having some notoriety will actually help the thing that I'm trying to build and make it a more permanent thing. And I also need to make sure that I have doors open when this job ends, if this job ends. So, yeah. Yeah. That was the calculation I've made and continue to make. I can give an example. I and this is very unusual. I got an email from New York Times opinion that they want a piece about the end of camp season. And I had to put the rest of my job aside for a couple of days to write that. 
But I think that was the right decision. I hope the people who employ me would agree. And, you know, like now I'm catching up and it's OK. Mm hmm. Yeah, that's wonderful. I'm wondering how this first book has influenced how you're thinking about book two, if you are thinking about that now. Yeah. Well, I think especially because I'm on this weird precipice of, am I staying in academia? You know, not academia. I plan on staying in academia. I want to do research, but am I aiming for the tenure track job or have I found some other way that I prefer? I, you know, it began with exhaustion from the tenure track job market, but I I think now that I've had this sort of job that is one foot in the traditional academic life and one foot in something a little bit different, I'm starting to think about what do I like about my job? 
And is it the stuff that would be in a tenure track job or is it the other stuff? I'm still figuring that out. I think I like both. So this is a dream situation for me, but I don't, you know, I can't bet on this situation lasting forever. What was your question? About how this book is influencing what you're thinking about book two. Oh, yeah. Right. So as I think about book two, I think about, you know, again, wanting to write something, not just the topic. It's not I don't want to tell people write on a topic that people will like because that's so shallow and and not every. I mean, plenty of worthwhile subjects don't have an obvious audience. I don't think that would be good if everyone just wrote thinking about, you know, audience, but how to write it in a way that is accessible to the public. 
And I've had thoughts about not writing with an academic press. depending where I am at the time that that project is getting closer to completion. If you're not going to stay in academia, I don't know why you would stay with an academic press. They're on shoestring budgets. They have limits to how much time they can give you. Again, I've had wonderful experiences with Stanford. It's nothing against them. If I'm not staying in academia, I don't know if I would limit myself, even though I definitely can't imagine writing a book that's not you know, kind of heavily researched and footnoted in all of this, in all the ways that my first book was. So I don't know yet. And that might be part of why I'm, you know, I'm starting the research, but I'm also giving myself some time to really digest it and figure out what, what is book two doing, you know, for me, for my career, you know, what is it for? 
And then I can decide where it's, where I want it to be published or how I want it to be structured, you know? So yeah, Yeah, that's the truth about book two. I don't know yet. Yeah. I mean, and you're in an interesting moment, as you're saying, because you're also figuring out where you're going to be or want to be. And that could affect how you think about the book, too. Are there other colleagues or mentors you've looked to to get an idea of how to think about book two? I think what seems to be the case is that the scholars who have the confidence to write something that is more... suited for the public tend to be the ones who already have tenure. 
So I don't think I have an example of someone that I can think of off the top of my head that's in the particular place that I'm in. But I think for the book one, I look towards mentors of mine who've written books that I think had a good crossover audience and that were written to be digestible. I think one of my college professors, Jeremy Varon, wrote a great book called Bringing the War Home about SDS. Students for Democratic Societies and the Weathermen and other groups like that, that I remember being very riveting and also very academic. Natalia, who I mentioned before, similarly writes these books that I think are heavily, you know, academic and research, but also really appealing to the public. 
One of my mentors from NYU, now he's at Penn, Jonathan Zimmerman, writes on education history. And because that's such an important subject for, you know, public debate is always in mainstream literature. press writing op-eds or, you know, kind of elucidating things that are going on today with his historical angle so that he also, you know, inspired me in a lot of different ways, including with his books. So, yeah, I think those are a lot of my role models. Yeah. There's a couple of questions we're asking guests. One is, what is something you wish you had known about writing or publishing early in your academic career? I think that I really rushed my first submission to a press because I felt pressure from the job market. 
Hmm. I think there's so much pressure when you're on the job market to have a contract that it can make you think you're ready when you're not. And so I think I learned from that to not let that, you know, in kind of infect your brain and rush you, even though I don't really have any regrets about the trajectory of that process. But I do think that there's a lot of just mystery around this process, which I guess is why you're making this podcast. There's just an insane amount of mystery and having to have a side conversation. Why don't we just tell people how this should go? Why, you know, why do I have to figure out why some people have a contract without having a full draft and other people needed to have a full draft before they had a contract? 
I don't know. All of that is it's honestly still mysterious to me. I'm just, you know, I guess now that I'm done with book one, I feel a little bit like, OK, I'm out of that first murky stage where, like I said, some people seem to get contracts with without a book and some people need a book to get the contract. Seems like once you're on to book two, if book one proved itself, then you don't have to do that whole rigmarole again. But I wish I understood that. And I still don't totally understand it as I say it out loud. I don't know if you want to say more about this, but was that first book submission, did that lead to any feedback or a different than expected route? 
Yeah. So I felt really rushed to do it because of the job market, as I said. Yeah. And so I had an interested press, a really top press, and they were enthusiastic, probably because they saw the topic and knew it would sell to some extent. They sent it out for peer review and peer review wasn't brutal or anything, but it just came back with this needs more work, which it totally did. They also suggested I do oral history, which was a good idea. It was not part of my undergraduate. You know, it wasn't part of my undergraduate. It wasn't part of my dissertation research for a It wasn't like a going back to the drawing board, but there was a substantial amount of changing and growing the project that had to be done. 
So no regrets on that. But what happened, which is sort of a little bit less ideal, but it was fine for me in the end, is that I came back to them, I don't know, nine months, 10 months later with a new version. And my editor, the person I was in touch with there, had just left the press five days prior. And they just wrote back, we're not taking on any of her projects that didn't have contracts. So, of course, I was devastated and blah, blah, blah. But then, you know, wasn't with a new, stronger version that had already gone through a strong peer review process, a good peer review process that yielded a better version. It was not hard to kind of actually shop that because it was less work for the second press. 
And they with Stanford understood completely what had happened and were totally lovely about it. And they I think what happened was they communicated with the previous press and asked who the the peer reviewers were. And I think they had one or two of them re-review it and then one new person. So the second round was not a heavy lift at all. And so that is how that happened. But it was devastating at first, not getting the peer review back that was mixed or just saying I needed work, but finally submitting the new version and then finding out your editor just quit. It was horrible. Right. And apparently not a common, you know, not a common thing to happen. That usually if you've put in nearly a year's worth of effort because of that press's peer review, usually even if you don't have a contract, they would try to kind of continue the deal, the unwritten deal. 
So that was not ideal, but it worked out. And I'm very happy with how things turned out with Stanford. And I don't, yeah, no regrets. Yeah, no, I had a very happy ending. And the bumps part of your story seems... actually very common to me. But you're right, we mostly don't hear these stories about them. So it's helpful to get to share them to know we're not alone in having them. And I was one of those people who didn't have a book out as early as I felt I should. And there were people who were like, oh, it's going to be impossible to get a job because your book isn't out and you can't say that it's about to be out. But these things happen in all sorts of ways. 
So they're sort of not one way that it has to go. Another question we're asking people is if there is a writing habit or practice that is working for you now. Oh, man, I'm not doing a lot of writing right now, except for the occasional like op-ed or essay. And I have to say I'm enjoying the break. But before, you know, before this was done, my writing habit, I really liked the Pomodoro timer thing. And And it's something I'm going back to now as I try to be more productive on some other things I'm working on without distractions. My current job has a lot of tasks switching, a lot more than I was having when I was a postdoc, just mainly working on a book. 
Woke up, worked on the book. That was basically the straightforward day I had for a couple of years. Very lucky. And now I do, I don't know, my job is four different people's jobs in one. So it can be hard for me to keep my attention span. And so the Pomodoro timer is coming back. But for people who don't know about it, I think a lot of people do. It's basically the idea of 25 minutes on, five minutes off. So I had a little app on my computer and I would do that. And what was helpful about it, it's not just the focus for 25 minutes thing. It was seeing how many I did at the end of the day and letting that make me feel like I had been productive because you can't 
really measure productivity with writing through number of pages written because sometimes productivity is deleting shit. It's like that sometimes the productive day is deleting half of what you worked on or just re-editing a single paragraph over and over again. And then I would leave that day being like, what did I even do? You know, what was today? So at least with the Pomodoro timer, I was able to say, OK, I wrote for, you know, five, six, seven, eight Pomodoro sessions. And that made me feel good and was a way of kind of just measuring that I was keeping at it. So that was good. And also, I think another thing that I've learned and will take with me is just which hours of the day I'm most productive and how to protect those hours from other stuff. 
I think this is maybe especially true of people who have jobs that require a bunch of different things. And I guess most academics do because you also have teaching and office hours and lesson prep. But, you know, for me, I'm really productive early in the morning from like 6 a.m. till 5. 11, basically. And then after that, I'm just, I don't know, my brain is much less creative, certainly for writing. So I try to protect my morning hours however I can and use the afternoon for the things that require a little bit less focus. Yeah, I do the same. I so agree with that. Sandra, is there anything else you want to share with us about this first book experience or the book promotion aspect of it? 
I think just that it's really fun if you let it be fun. And people should just enjoy that big moment where your first book comes to life, to light. I think there's so much slog in academia. There's so much waiting and writing and waiting more and worrying that, you know, take the wins, just enjoy it and make it fun. Because maybe by making it fun and exciting, that will yield, you know, the publicity and other things. So yeah, just have fun. It's a good way to treat yourself. Good idea. Okay. Well, thank you so much for talking with us today. This was great. Thanks for listening to Writing It, the podcast about academics and writing, sponsored by the Center for Jewish Studies at the University of Florida. 
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