Speaker 1 (00:16)
⁓ Alright, hey welcome back to the poet delayed this is Scott I am the host and we are on location Midway Jones's house or catching up with the Jones's ⁓

Box of Cracker Jacks and a Coke. The least, Christian Jones or Chris Jones. still have a hard time calling you Chris. My stage name is Christian. And then Ali is coming. Chris is you're on a few. ⁓ Has it been a month? Yeah, over a month. And then you did Torch Light and then Ali. beginning of April.

Speaker 2 (00:53)
Stage Stage name! I love stage names!

Yeah.

A thousand years ago.

Speaker 1 (01:10)
Time

is ⁓

Speaker 2 (01:14)
I know.

There

you go. I have nothing clever to say, ever.

Speaker 1 (01:25)
It's non-existent

at this point. It's our most precious commodity, but it's fleeting. All of a sudden it's gonna be Christmas. When I was in first grade, I remember the last day of school helping my teacher, Mrs. Hoggard, wipe off the chalkboard. She was my second grade teacher too. Wipe off the chalkboard, and I remember telling her, I don't remember if I told her that it went by fast or it went by slow. I think I said, man, this year it went by slow.

And she said, wait till you get older, Scott. I was going to fly by. And I remember walking home, just thinking about what she had said. It's coming. But faster. I couldn't even fathom it. But now it's just like, Yeah. So fast.

Speaker 2 (02:09)
But think of all the things that are in your mind as a kid. Right. really, they weigh you down in a different way or they enlighten you in different way. You're not, as an adult you have so many other things on your mind that you're doing and it's just all of sudden three days is gone. As a kid it's like, who am I going to play with today?

Speaker 1 (02:26)
but also you don't have like I was so seven years old six years old I only had six years yeah so a year was a sixth of my life and now it's a one and fifty first and a second of my life so this a year is not as comparable before so but here we are on location beautiful Midway

Speaker 2 (02:39)
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:51)
It is beautiful. It doesn't go past us. It is. And such a comfortable home. First time here and we're sitting in your library which is fantastic. Yeah. So, thank you. And we talked about doing this before you did Torchlight. Yeah. The post Torchlight podcast with the four of us and we actually made it happen. Barely!

Speaker 2 (02:56)
It's just the drive up.

Speaker 1 (03:19)
But, yeah, Ali drove to my house in Farmington. listen, worse things have happened. If I had a schedule like Ali's, I would have driven to Idaho before I realized, wait, this is not going happen. No, I know. But you know what? We're glad you decided to come, because you were saying, start that. We didn't want to, by the way.

Speaker 2 (03:32)
Thank you!

I did! did. Well,

here we are. Well, thank you.

Speaker 1 (03:45)
Well

today I want like we're gonna talk about I'm gonna read a poem by Rilke who quickly the first time I read his poetry I thought this guy is my guy there's a few people who I resonate with who I feel like if they walked in the room I would know them. Did we talk about this like Hemingway's one of them? did talk about him. Nietzsche is one of them, Rilke is one of them and Elvis is one of them as well. I know it's... Who wouldn't get along with Elvis?

had the charisma Johnny Cash Johnny Cash would talk about walking up to him said I would just look at just look at him just look for some sort of imperfection or something that he had it yeah yeah talked about VB King saying that guy he played a great guitar but that guy had a charisma he could move when he played it and that's all that mattered

Get the girls out of their seats and we're make a million. So this poem, you know, lot of his poetry he didn't put titles to. This one though, somebody has put, taken a line out of it and given the title to it. It's Go to the Limits of Your Longing and it's from his book of hours. So I to read it and then I just, there's no direction here.

we're just gonna talk. Free ⁓ association. ⁓

Speaker 2 (05:20)
Radio. ⁓

sorry. ⁓

I mean.

Speaker 1 (06:06)
But it

shows a daisy in the city and it's raining and it's really melancholy and I was on my mission and there was a classically trained...

was in my district and I said, you know classical music? He's like, yeah. And I hummed it for him. Like it was 20. That's Largo and Dee by Vivaldi. You should check out Leona Boyd's version. What you found this long lost song. Anyway, Sesame Street, the OG Sesame Street.

Speaker 2 (06:56)
But that's that I think that was our first introduction to meditation and Ross yeah, I'm Bob Ross Yeah, but just they would have just beautiful nature Nature with classical music and after the funny Muppets and everything yeah, I remember sitting there as a kid. It would make me cry Just sitting there just so calm and peaceful like

Speaker 1 (07:22)
⁓ The

red ball that would go through the song that was with that

Speaker 2 (07:26)
Do do

Speaker 1 (07:31)
You guys have more memory

of Sesame Street than I do. Cause we pretended to be sick a lot and stay home and watch Sesame Street. Sorry. No, it's alright. Yeah, I don't remember. I mean, I remember like...

Speaker 2 (07:38)
and it turns into powder.

Speaker 1 (07:47)
But we still had the... But also we had one channel, an American broadcast system. I remember... Did you guys have this here where at 10 o'clock the national anthem would heard? course. Oh yeah. And then next... Snow. And then Saturday morning you'd get up and have the color bars and you'd wait for 6 AM. Yes! For Smurfs! For Smurfs and the Snorfs. dude. And then you're like 5.30. Let's go get some life cereal.

Speaker 2 (08:14)
The rainbow bars and yep right at six o'clock the hannah barbaria cartoons

Speaker 1 (08:17)
That's from me.

Speaker 2 (08:29)
Kids incorporated. Kids incorporated. Kids incorporated. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 (08:37)
Sorry, dude. Alright, no, it's alright. Let's read the poem and then we can talk about Kids Incorporated. Who's going to remember to talk about Kids Incorporated? Not me, because I Alright, here we go. So, real quick, here's the poem. Go to the Limits of Your Longing is the title that's been given to it. It reads, God speaks to each of us as he makes us, then walks us silently out of the night. These are the words we dimly hear.

Speaker 2 (08:41)
Sorry.

Speaker 1 (09:05)
You, sent out beyond your recall. Go to the limits of your longing. Embody me. Flare up like a flame and make big shadows I can move in. Let everything happen to you. Beauty and terror. Just keep going. No feeling is final. Don't let yourself lose me. Nearby is the country you think called life.

You will know it by its seriousness. Give.

time I came across this poem was the movie Jojo Rabbit.

Speaker 2 (09:50)
yeah, good stuff.

Speaker 1 (09:51)
Ali and I watched that together, but I remember because in that movie Rilke his poetry is ready kind of is incorporated into the narrative of the movie and I had not read his stuff before and Then it's the movie is fantastic. I mean so good funny emotional sad scary all the higher no, it's just But at end of the movie it blacks out the screen goes black and then

let everything happen to you. Beauty and terror. Just keep going. No feeling is final. And I remember the lights in the theater were still out. The screen was black and those words showed up. I just, mean this calm, this peace, this love just transcended on me. Just overwhelmed me. I just like started crying.

I just, the words spoke to me. It's interesting to because sometimes when we read, when music brings so much emotion, and sometimes the written word isn't as powerful as music, but that evening in the theater, I was just bowled over. I needed to hear that at the time. And I want to talk about the whole poem, but that verse right there, let everything happen to you.

Beauty and terror. Just keep going. No feeling is final. And we were sitting around talking a lot before we even started this ⁓ out there at the porch. And as I sat there listening, I just listened. I just thought everything that we were talking about, everything that you guys were sharing is bounded in this because there's some.

difficult things that we all struggle with, everybody does. Beauty and terror. just keep going.

details but really hard stuff going on to their kids. Medical stuff. My thought was life.

not only is everything ⁓ everything on this planet wants to kill you we talked about the desert and the grand bacteria, viruses, animals, weather everything is stacked against you and you just gotta plow

Speaker 2 (12:28)
That's

how a flower grows when you see a tiny flower. How did it push through concrete and crack it? And it's not just brutal, it's broodiful. Right?

Speaker 1 (12:39)
What ⁓

Speaker 2 (12:46)
think

beautiful. Things like that inspire me where that tiny little blade of grass or that tiny little flower pushed its way through.

it knew it was light, it was light. It couldn't see light, it didn't know where was, but it kept pushing through something 10,000 times its weight and cracked it and broke it and bloomed. I just, like that's miraculous. so, like we have no choice to be that way though. Like actually don't like when people say, oh, you're so strong or to say that to someone just because.

You don't choose to be, you like, you wake up every day, you have to deal with it. You're not choosing to be strong, it's not, I'm gonna make this happen, I'm just. It's just happening, it's one hour at a ⁓ time. ⁓

Speaker 1 (13:36)
Stop motion

Speaker 2 (13:47)
Another childhood. We were.

Speaker 1 (13:51)
Does the poem in the line that says, feel everything? No feeling is final. No feeling is final. But did it say be open to everything? maybe that's my just interpreting. and that's fair. So it says, let me read it again for those who are listening and for us. God speaks to each of us as he makes us, then walks with us silently out of the night. These are the words we dimly hear. You.

Sent out beyond your recall. Go to the limits of your longing. Embody me. Flare up like a flame and make big shadows I can move in. Let everything happen to you. Beauty and terror. Just keep going. No feeling is final. Let everything happen to you. That's profound.

Speaker 2 (14:39)
Thank

And no feeling, you don't feel the same forever. Not that it disappears or the memory disappears, but you know, emotions can change behind it.

Speaker 1 (14:48)
No, that's the...

I've been thinking, like, let everything happen to you, beauty and terror. I've been thinking a lot about that because in last few years, what is, and change it from beauty to terror to success and failure, like, what's the difference between success and failure? Like, in my mind, I think all those are two different endings to a process. And it's perception. Yeah, and.

Speaker 2 (15:16)
very relative.

Speaker 1 (15:20)
We want success, but what is wrong with failure? it's... Life is a process. mean, life is life. so I think about that same thing here, beauty and tear. It's all gonna happen to you anyway. I mean, so I think here it's just kind of like an acceptance. Like, not everything is going to be comfortable. We live in a, I think, an age where we seek comfort.

Speaker 2 (15:26)
That's how you achieve success.

Speaker 1 (15:49)
We try to avoid pain, try to avoid discomfort. And in doing so, we miss out, I think, on the beauties of life. Because so much, I'm trying think of the Khalil Gibran poem, it's titled On Pain. ⁓ He says,

Speaker 2 (16:27)
Yeah

just ran in on a flip phone.

Speaker 1 (16:39)
Basically as the

Junior high age kids.

And it was like we were back in 19... Playing together, they to each other, they were feeding...

Speaker 2 (16:50)
Yeah, I mean our kids are kind of

I found that in COVID when all the lessons were canceled and kids were outside playing with sticks and rocks and I actually got emotional I thought, I have never seen the kids in our neighborhood outside making a fort. Because they're at piano lessons and all our kids are at soccer and dance and all these things and social media, all the things.

Speaker 1 (17:17)
All the kids in the neighborhood were bumbling along doing stuff. Everybody just show up or going to someone's house. Hey can so and so play?

Speaker 2 (17:23)
Click the camera.

And how you found out where your friends were is how many bikes were on some... And I was like, oh that's I You just go to the door. There was no calling, you know? Anyway.

Speaker 1 (17:33)
Yeah. ⁓

So I can't find that because Midway is behind the times. I'll give you my password. Because said it like I brought this with me. Okay. I've been reading like The Old Man in the Sea. When's the last time you guys read it? Oh gosh. Eighth grade. I think everybody needs to reread it. Get on Audible. Donald Sutherland reads it. But anyway, this book is like I will just listen to it sometimes. Like the other day I was on a walk and I just

audible I went to like 15 minutes to the end and I just listened from there is right out basically as the old man's coming in with the fish and the sharks hit yeah and it's listened from there to the end ⁓ powerful but I love this line I've always loved this line in book so here he is he's the old man he's gone too far out he's in a reason this is what Hemingway wrote speaking of the old man he settled comfortably against the wood

me the wood of the boat, and took his suffering as it came, and the fish swam steadily, and the boat moved slowly through the dark water. And I remember reading that thinking, that is what life is. Settled comfortably against the wood and took his suffering as it came. It's inevitable. Nothing you can do. What are you gonna do, old man, in the boat? You can let the fish go, I guess. Yeah. And you can row back in.

and then I was to him and just avoid such a big part of life he says this too and then this is what I jumped out to you today

And what I gather when I was reading these passages or listening to an audible, just, more and more, I'm wrapping my brain around the fact that suffering is okay. I talked about this in the first Torchlight, know, like Nietzsche's words. to live is, well, he says, it's not suffering, but the meaningless of suffering, which is the curse that lays across mankind.

meaninglessness of suffering where you just suffer and just think I don't want to suffer right instead of trying to find meaning to it but this

Speaker 2 (20:13)
about

resisting it. That's I think of when you finally just surrender and what that means to surrender to.

Speaker 1 (20:21)
What does it

Speaker 2 (20:26)
Sounds like it would be giving up, But surrender, I think it's a powerful word. just, you become. There's humility in it. There's humility, contrite, contriteness of being teachable. Okay, what is this? What is this meant to be? What is the lesson here? You know, I think so many of us get stuck in, I know for me,

Speaker 1 (20:29)
Yes.

Speaker 2 (20:54)
things happen and I get stuck in the why and I try to reason and I try to make sense of it and at some point you just have to surrender to it, let it come, this is gonna hurt, right? This hurts. And letting it pass through. Sitting in it.

Speaker 1 (21:15)
And sitting

in it. That's the courageous thing, right? Yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:18)
I think it's hardest part. It's hardest

part. You want to run, want to band-aid it, you want to throw something on it, you want to... But you also don't have to... You don't have to hold it to a point where it sits and makes you heavy. So many do. feel like how many times have I just thought, okay, if I just kind of act as a sieve, I'd actually thank some friends of mine for being a sieve for me before because when you can be vulnerable and you sit with the hard and the heavy,

whatever comes, you can either hold it or you can be a sieve and let it go through you and feel it, but then what's left behind is the value. In that sieve where those nuggets got gold that's left behind after you let go of all the crap that came along with it, is now you have something of value that you can hold. And it's not nearly as heavy as if you were to hold everything and never find the value in it.

And it's, but it's hard, you know, of course. But I think that surrender is saying, okay, I can, I can kind of empty some of this and let it pass through me and let me, let me feel it. Yeah. Knowing that at some point there's going to be maybe two little nuggets left over of what is going to be the value. how sweet.

Speaker 1 (22:37)
don't know how to... H59 that goes off and says your bedtime is coming. I don't remember setting it up. I think one thing is when we surrender it's acknowledging that there are things that we don't have control over. And letting those things go. I mean that's AA right? Surrender to things you can't control. I mean it's how you...

Speaker 2 (23:04)
There's

power in surrendering.

Speaker 1 (23:06)
Because when we

try to control everything, that amplifies the pain and it creates other pains. But man, it's scary to let go.

Speaker 2 (23:14)
It is so hard. Well, allowing yourself to feel it. Surrender doesn't mean to me, just disregarding. Yeah, disregarding. better word. I'm feeling this and I'm allowing, know, it's okay that this is happening, that it's not my plan.

Speaker 1 (23:22)
Well, yeah, disregard.

and shifting your focus to what you do have control over.

Speaker 2 (23:34)
Which is how you react. That's the only thing you have control over is how you react. That took me years.

Speaker 1 (23:38)
No,

I was just gonna say I just had a picture of my mind of a pebble hitting the water and trying to minimize the effect so you can't stop the pebble from rippling I just saw you know you try to minimize the ripple effect to those around you

Speaker 2 (23:53)
Good.

Ha ha!

Speaker 1 (24:03)
fight against that the more chaos you create and bigger those ripples are and so initially it's that one problem but I think we have a tendency to make it bigger and fight against it causes more ripples into loved ones and family so what do we do that what's just let let it you just got a letter

Speaker 2 (24:23)
That's.

Speaker 1 (24:29)
Let it But least I like what you said to me it's What was the word that you used? than? Brutal no no just a minute ago rather than ⁓ Letting it go it's you don't forget about you don't just say Catholic go through you. mean you have to acknowledge it you have to ⁓ It was good whatever

Speaker 2 (24:31)
you

What did I say? just

don't remember. It was after that. It wasn't disregarding it. Disregard that.

Speaker 1 (25:06)
Yeah, yeah, you don't, yeah, do not disregard

it. You don't just pretend like it's not there. And that's, well, I think for me, I've spent a lifetime trying to pretend like it didn't have the suffering. Or rather than moving through the suffering and letting it move through me and healing, my goal is just to feel better. My goal is just take the pain away.

Don't you feel me? That's sure yeah versiveness to pain absolutely

Speaker 2 (25:36)
When raising a

white flag in surrender, it doesn't mean that the situation's over. It's just, alright, I'm fighting to have it my way.

Speaker 1 (25:48)
I that this is too much for me. I ⁓ acknowledge that I don't have control over these things and fighting is just making it worse. Instead of focusing on, okay, what can I do? What can I do that would...

Speaker 2 (26:00)
or finding the beauty in it, finding that glimmer, finding the lesson.

Speaker 1 (26:05)
Mean because all existential philosophy it's all about Life is meaningless. So what are you gonna do? this the answer is? I'm gonna come back to art come back to our music baking I tell people

Speaker 2 (26:25)
Yeah. Literally saved

me.

Speaker 1 (26:29)
That's

what I mean. Hobbies and distractions. for me, and we talked about this in poetry and the things that are cathartic to help us work.

Speaker 2 (26:33)
For me though.

Creativity

is huge. Music is that way for me though too because I got to a point where I had so many years of therapy, so much intake of do this, do that, information, how to fix this, whatever, and it got to a point where I was losing the ability. TV is hard for me, movies are hard, very triggering. A lot of things are triggering because of just a lot of trauma. And music though.

Speaker 1 (27:07)
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (27:10)
I could, I can, music can articulate in words and speak the things of my heart that I could not get out. It's like, okay. And it'd be, yeah, it just, no. And I had to sell my piano. I've always wanted to play music like by ear. I can do things. I never could read music, but yeah, I mean it's.

Speaker 1 (27:23)
instrument.

Because listening, ⁓ 100%. I'm with you there. I remember that song at four years old. I remember that song. It's so melancholic. I love that song. But when you play music or you write poetry or you bake something, there's something in the making of that that's an added creation.

Speaker 2 (27:44)
Right.

But

there's also a turning point. When you get like... There has to be a need created, right? So going through something really hard and you need an outlet and a release. That's the... I hate to use the word trigger, but just because it's not the right word.

but that creates you having the ability to create something beautiful out of that. So you have really hard things happen to you and then you have an outlet of creativity that would not have, you wouldn't have succumbed to or found that had you not just needed something to turn into something better.

Speaker 1 (28:21)
mechanism.

So

you're super busy, and we talked about this. It's not rare, you don't have as much time to bake. How do you feel after you bake something? Like, created something. Look at your face! It's like, that, yes! For those of you listening and can't see, Ali just showed a face of happiness and joy.

Speaker 2 (28:56)
Yeah, it is.

Speaker 4 (29:04)
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (29:05)
Bye!

Speaker 1 (29:05)
Big

smile! She's kind of weepy with happy tears.

Speaker 2 (29:09)
I do that, it's just who I am, I am weepy. But no, it's just so, because I was just talking, I had a business meeting this morning and we were just talking about how this whole, how I started, and I don't mean to take away from anything here, but Elise, what you were saying, like this thing, like you're showing it out of your heart, that's what started my bakery was complete heartbreak. Like I had just lost a baby, had just, ⁓ everything was falling apart.

But I can give you this warm chocolate chip cookie that didn't exist a year ago and it came from my heart and I can show you I love you.

Speaker 1 (29:52)
the best chocolate

chips on the planet. Because they're made with love. ⁓

Speaker 2 (30:00)
Anyway,

but yes, it is something that you just can't put into words and when it comes from a place of love and can I Give this to you. Do you take this offering and can it help you and can it uplift you and bring you? ⁓

Yeah, I mean, it's- What if doesn't like this? Someone doesn't like it, yeah, they're gonna my baby. I

Speaker 1 (30:27)
I'm

at the point where I don't give a damn. I didn't write this for you. I wrote this to get whatever is inside out. And I'm sure you feel the same way when you paint and do yoga.

Speaker 2 (30:36)
Alright.

Everything at least does. Holy cow. I'm in a process right now where that's in my head. this, I'm doing something creative to share and it's from my heart and it's, you know, is this going to be worth it to put all this time, effort and eventually a lot of money into something that I want to share?

Is anyone even gonna care? But then I have, it's a Jekyll and Hyde thing I have to go back and say, but this is, this is for me. This is for me to do. I don't care if boxes of them sit there, you know? It's just like, is something for me. I am making a Heart Healthy Cookbook. a, creating a, with, but it has like stories involved in it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:13)
I think this place like that we're free to

Speaker 2 (31:29)
⁓ True, you know or they seem really boring so I'm just putting my spin on it. I love it fun You know, anyway, so that's that's something that I've been in the process of that I just feel like Wow Is this even worth it? But it's like yeah, is because it's me releasing something out of me that I can leave behind

I'm a cook, you know what mean? I can cook really well when I do, but I've had to transition, I've had to make even basic things edible for me, just like you. But not to the nth degree, like I don't make my own flour.

Speaker 1 (32:18)
Like you do.

Speaker 2 (32:18)
I know,

it's that's safe. ⁓ But you know how it feels, it's like, if I can't do this, how can I create it to be something that works for me that can also work for someone else? So that's what it is. It's just, you know, and it's not, don't have to have a heart condition to eat heart healthy. Enjoy.

Speaker 1 (32:34)
You don't have to gluten intolerance either. It's so

delicious. Can I just tell a story? Yeah. I knew Allie had a bakery. And we were looking for a cake-trus. What do you call it? A cake-trus? A cake-trus! And I said, I've got a friend in Bountiful who does this.

Speaker 2 (32:41)
Please.

I can't!

It is awesome. Thank you.

We're not driving with speed.

Speaker 1 (33:01)
I did

not know that it was gluten free. I just said, hey, let's go to Ali's shop. She brought out, okay, here are the 12.

Speaker 2 (33:06)
So we'll.

I'll

be honest, was kind of like, my daughter and I were a bit wait a second, I don't know if gluten-free You're saying that because you're my friend. No! Everyone at wedding was like, where did this cake come from? And we'd say, do you have gluten-free? They're like, no way! Eww! Okay, was that good? Yes, can finish.

Speaker 1 (33:22)
You know what I

Can I please? Sorry. So

we go into this beautiful bakery in Bountiful on Main Beautiful. Beautiful. Straight out of a Hallmark. Top down. Sweetcake Bakeshop. South Main Street. Yes. Bountiful, Utah.

Speaker 2 (33:47)
literally

brighter. It's the best ever.

Speaker 1 (33:49)
walk in there and I'm like this is gluten-free let's give it a shot you can't tell

Speaker 2 (33:55)
No, no, no, no, it's not that you can't tell, it's better than any case.

Speaker 1 (33:58)
It's

amazing, I'm just saying it's amazing and then she produces a flower. So she's bringing out all these different taste tests and it's amazing.

Speaker 2 (34:08)
So her taking her pain and creating something beautiful out of it, it hasn't just been for you. It's helped so many people that also have the food intolerances that you have.

Speaker 1 (34:20)
It was so

I mean the taste the taste test we walked out of

Speaker 2 (34:25)
We didn't go anywhere else. were like this is done. This is the best thing we ever tasted in our lives.

I mean you don't

anyway but it's like it's so good. I just need to just come in out with you guys all the time. You're welcome. We have a guest room.

But here's the thing, And a root beer. A root beer. A root beer ice cream sandwich. I know. With root beer in our cake cookie. I know. I failed. She failed. ⁓

Speaker 1 (34:55)
Real pussy

You bring those to them.

But

here's the thing, ⁓ we're saying positive things about you, but it's because you built it. mean, we're not just making stuff up. This is-

Speaker 2 (35:16)
It

is so hard for me to do, but yes. Thank you. It's not easy.

Speaker 1 (35:20)
But you do such a good job. Not just

baking, you came up with recipes. Do you have to reverse engineer some these?

Speaker 2 (35:28)
Yeah,

so I research and study a bunch of different regular filled ones. I try to learn the I call it the madness behind the method and I'll take several different recipes. Some of them I've just made like they've I've just made them myself. So like my pie crust, my bread, those are all mine. But a lot of times yeah, I'll just study and read

Speaker 3 (35:53)
Read, read,

read, read,

Speaker 2 (35:54)
I read tons. I love

my cookbooks. I read them. I read study recipes and then I convert it over to gluten-free. Okay, how can I how can I make this? so like I have little secrets and things that like

Speaker 1 (36:07)
not

to be revealed here.

Speaker 2 (36:08)
No,

I can rebuild this one, like anytime I use, um, it's like mayonnaise, it's in a lot of my vegan stuff instead of sour cream. So the consistencies I try to replicate, okay, what is gluten free and safe and whatever that is going to make this. So, yeah. Isn't it funny that, I mean, to, I mean, just going to cooking, which is great, but I, it's funny that I had to be forced to eat healthier. Isn't that the dumbest thing? I actually prefer squeezing a lemon.

for my salad dressing like yeah where it's like why aren't we eating like this anyway ⁓ we're the age of convenience and a box of crackers is cheaper than a pound of apples and so it's just you know just trying to

We just get in this groove of, guess, this is such torture now. I have to find something that doesn't have all these ingredients in it. Well, that's just normal food. Yeah. That's what we ate as kids. Yeah. That didn't even exist. We didn't have fruit roll-up self-worth grade. Yeah. It's like true. And I think it's different because we grew up a different era. I mean, my mom made her own fruit leather. And I think that was most of us. The garbage food didn't exist as prevalent have. Everything was made from scratch. My mom would make, you know, we'd pick our grapes, and my mom would make

Speaker 1 (37:31)
You Oh my gosh. What is this? I go home, Mom, there was somebody brought some fruit leather. Do you know what that is? Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 (37:35)
I'm gonna go to the bathroom.

I just had a really magical childhood and yeah, everything was made from scratch and yeah, seeing my grandparents cherry tree and I actually ate it as a kid. have four brothers and we couldn't, I couldn't go out and play until my section of the garden was done. Yes. And I was like, yeah. And we, but we ate out of the garden fresh all from spring to fall. Yeah. And I loved it. Didn't appreciate it until later where now it's kind of like, know, we all complained.

I can't I can't eat this and you know, they've yeah, they've changed how we made so that our stomachs don't can't process process And so we were trying to there's a reason why even social media. There's so much hype on farm life or Garden life or all these things because to a lot of people in a younger generation That's it. That's new. So it is so new. Yeah, and was in that how we ate how it was Yeah, and so it's kind of it's interesting that ⁓

Yeah, yeah

Speaker 1 (38:45)
We

had a friend just get married, I wasn't able to go in Moab, and Elise told me that their registry was gardening utensils, beehives. I had bees for beehives. That's amazing love it. It's pretty cool.

Speaker 2 (39:04)
It really is, but it's so neat though to see this younger generation valuing that, the things that we took for granted and the things that we just, there's life for us, you know?

Speaker 1 (39:16)
Well, my house,

we just ate Lin-Wilson Burrito.

Speaker 2 (39:19)
They

always have a dry spot. There's always a spot. Okay, do you remember those meat patties? This is one meal. hate them. They were that frozen meat patty and my mom would pour a can of tomato soup on top. I literally would not eat it. That was like one of the worst meat patties. Did you guys ever grow? It's so stupid meat. Where? I thought they were Lynn Wilson. We've been going down memory lane for the last.

Speaker 1 (39:25)
Cheese!

Hungry man? A hungry guy?

Yeah

We still have liver. I love liver.

We would play for Thanksgiving and look at you with like, heart, liver, filter, and body. disgusting! Watch how I tie this back in. When Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden, what did God say to Adam? By the sweat of thy brow.

Speaker 2 (40:29)
It's like, life's supposed to be hard.

I actually think they got bored after a while and it was like you know what the only way we can move on to work is right you know doing something like this is I mean how long were they living in ⁓

Speaker 1 (40:45)
Yeah

They didn't know the difference between... ⁓

Speaker 2 (40:52)
Let's see what that is over there. Let's

eat the Len Wilson burrito over there. ⁓

Speaker 1 (41:00)
Yes they

do and they're as good as they were back then. No, I mean beans and cheese in a weird tortilla. did buy some I'm like this is just like mama used to make.

Big old slab of cheddar, shred some lettuce, and put some hot sauce and you're good to go. We ate that three days a week and spaghetti twice a week. Spaghetti, least it was consistent. That's true. I don't know if I should tell this story but my mom, I'm gonna tell her. Is it something she does not want to hear? Because we can tell her to turn it No, because I've told people.

Speaker 2 (41:48)
I

know where he's going. She's heard it.

Speaker 1 (41:50)
My mom

would get creative and so she'd go on these kicks one summer she got a weak kick, which is kind of avant-garde

was healthier she got on a tofu kick in the 80s I don't know everything for Sunday dinner you made a tofu but

Speaker 2 (42:23)
that's hilarious.

off no

I'm not loaf

Speaker 1 (42:36)
That's the day she stopped cooking. Stop cooking! We had rice and barbecue chicken every Sunday, that's it. That's perfect though, I love rice and barbecue chicken. we deserved it, like you can't say that. You can't say that! You're by one word, tart on that loaf. Nut loaf, though, I don't think you're things nut It was like a meatloaf. She tried to season it like a meatloaf and put all crushed almonds on top.

Speaker 2 (42:39)
Cookie forever?

is.

Bye!

⁓

and was just a slab of tofu and it's like no it was a love okay i want that recipe i want to try it no you don't tell her to resurrect that i want to see it tofu with nuts where did she even get tofu in utah in the 80s where how

Speaker 1 (43:06)
It was like a loaf.

It

was weird watery thing

Speaker 2 (43:28)
Okay.

Well.

It to anything it's with. So it's like why not just eat the thing? the...yeah. Why not just eat the actual thing where the flavor came from?

Speaker 1 (43:49)
And we ate a ton of Waldorf salad. It like those, are good though, right? Yeah. It's like apples and raisins. Yeah, that's good. With whipped cream. You still get the health out of it. just add the whipped Whipped cream is not too bad for you.

Speaker 3 (43:52)
Good

Speaker 2 (44:04)
I made

a Waldo salad for my mom and dad when I was probably six years old. first cookbook I got was... huh. I had this cookbook I got for my birthday. I still have it. It was the Better Homes and Gardens and it was the kid one. checkered one, but it was the kid version. And I made the bananas, the little chocolate dip bananas in there. My snickerdoodle recipe is from there. No, I have What I make in the bakery is from there. But they had the ambrosia salad.

I spending hours peeling grapes. Oh no! And I took it down to my parents and it probably had all kinds of fun creations in there but I remember that. So every time I hear of... Yeah, peeled grapes. Mom, remember that.

Speaker 1 (44:51)
I'm a great old dude. What's great for always is the eyeballs in Well, we did. It was Adam. And then we went off again. We are. We must be hungry.

Speaker 2 (44:54)
Yeah. Okay, bring it back Scott.

I we're just here. I fed you melon. That was delicious.

Speaker 1 (45:06)
You did.

the feta cheese, which we hearty. I mean, it's no small thing to talk about Adam, because I mean, the Old Testament, that's what life is. I we are meant to toil. I don't know that we're meant to toil, that's just what we do. And we live in an age of convenience that makes suffering seem un-

Speaker 2 (45:12)
Amazing.

Speaker 1 (45:35)
necessary but I think it is necessary to have a balanced I think I don't know if this is true or not but I'll bet you if we looked up statistics the level of depression goes up when we try to avoid suffering and we try to just look for comfort and ease

Speaker 2 (45:36)
Mm.

actually worry about people who have everything going on really well. Because I feel like, not that you wish ill on anybody, or if my life's going really smooth, I just feel like maybe that's when God's not paying attention. Some people might feel like, where are my blessings, or getting spiritual a little bit, like where is God, is answer to my prayers, all these things when things are really hard?

But it's when things are going easy that it's like, wait, do I not need to grow? ⁓

And there was a time, if you don't mind me sharing this, is the social realm, but when I had, I was in my lung surgery and I was in the ICU two or three times after that, it's my heart, you know, since it's been failing, it was tanking and it's not doing very well. And I had chest tubes and lung collapse and all these things. And a big chunk of my lung had recently been, had just been removed. So,

They wouldn't let Chris stay over one of the times I was in ICU. Because it's ICU. And things were not going well to where we had a very ⁓ hard conversation before he left. And I remember not feeling, like I suddenly had this feeling of just, wasn't afraid. I wasn't worried. I wasn't nearly as afraid as I think he was. But I just, it was...

Speaker 1 (47:09)
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (47:31)
It was like I had this conversation with God without hearing it. It was just this immediate understanding that I chose this. And what I mean is, you know, going back to this, ⁓ just keep going, no feeling is final. Let anything happen to you, beauty or terror. It's by choosing mortality, which is what I believe.

We understood what the end game was. So I had this very strong feeling that because I knew what the end game was and I wanted that to happen later in my life, I will take it. And I knew mortality meant, we all did, that we knew mortality would mean pain, suffering, joy, happiness, death, illness, all the things. But because we know the end game, we would do it.

And that was such a comfort to me because the rest of that conversation was, just remember I'm here when you go through it, not if. Just remember when you go through that, don't forget that I'm here. And so I kind of feel, and that kind of helped me realize I'm not afraid. Like I'm actually excited to go to the other side and come back and haunt people.

Speaker 1 (48:56)
And her moomoos and

captains.

Speaker 2 (48:59)
I

love you so much! But I just, it's completely reduced my fear because I thought, you know what, if I only have, I mean we all have a timeline, right?

Why not make every day count and it changed the way I thought. I my heart surgery did originally, but every time I've gone back for different surgeries or different ailments, it's gotten stronger to where, you know, I don't let the little things get me down. I have more to worry about and even relationships that don't love me back. I can close those doors without feeling mean. ⁓ And I can say, Hey, if this, if this person, if I'm always the one that's trying to keep this relationship going,

and they're not reciprocating, that was a chapter that worked for a while. I can close that chapter and write a new one and that's not mean. Or this situation in my life or all these things that I used to worry about, I laugh at the fact that I worried about a lot more years ago because I'm like, who gives a flip?

And reacts differently. Yeah, I do and like it's just I something that might hurt feelings or that I get upset with or frustrated I'm kind of like seriously and what I remember when I used to care about that. I love that story. Like that's like hey, I haven't thought about this situation in four years or whatever whatever it is and it's so freeing to know that you have a timeline and to know

that everything you do matters, but you don't have to hold on to things that don't. it's just, don't have to hold on to the pain. Yeah. I really, I would never, I would never take my heart failure away. ⁓ my gosh. would never take it away. Like I needed, like God knew that I needed something to like say, Hey,

stop controlling things, stop worrying about things, stop taking, you know, whatever it was.

I took everything so seriously I took everything to heart right and not like kind of remembering that Elise is a totally different person

it's yeah, what matters is Chris and my girls and Relationships that matter you guys are seriously the most inspiring people I say that all the time but like watching the two of you navigate all of this You have to laugh

Speaker 1 (51:29)
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:42)
You do and you guys do and you guys find such like ⁓ Scott when were we talking about that in our private conversation when you and ⁓ Chris did your podcast

And we were just kind of chit chatting about it. I'm like, is it Chris great? Chris and Elise so great. And I think I told Elise this, but one of the things I noticed and picked up on in that when you were sharing her story with Scott was that you said when we got our diagnosis.

Speaker 1 (52:20)
Yeah, I remember that. I remember when you said we got our diagnosis. I specifically

remember you saying that.

Speaker 2 (52:26)
That is so incredible. Like your story and your love. Well of all the people that he could have chosen, am my gratitude that he chose me.

Speaker 1 (52:41)
No,

I'm leaving. Now I'm walking out the door. No, no, like I... Just take this up out of your guys. I'll take it off.

Speaker 2 (52:50)
But that's how I feel about him and I think that it's important for people to remember and to know that no matter what your ailment is, no matter what your hardship is, ⁓ whatever you're going through is affecting someone else in a different way. So I said before, I see my illness through the eyes of my husband and my girls and that's what reminds me. Besides all the physical things that are happening to me right now and my body reminds me that I'm sick but...

Like you can handle what happens to you. But when you see it through the eyes of your kids, when you see it through the eyes of your family or your parents or that it's just to remember that there are people that love you and to share that with them and to gives you that fight. You're alone. gives you the fight too. You don't have to do it yourself and to not try and hide, to not try and hide the reality and say I'm okay when it's not like you all reminded me today earlier out on the porch when I said,

but it's okay, it's okay. And you all said, it's not. I have to remind myself to say, you're right, it's not.

Speaker 1 (53:54)
think we all minimize it, right? we all do

it. I find that I minimize it because I don't want to be a burden on other people. For sure. So I feel like, worry about it. Yeah. Well, that's OK, I think, there. we have certain, like, I was just, I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Like, I have certain people that I can talk to about things I'm going through right now that.

Speaker 2 (54:05)
Especially kids, especially...

Speaker 1 (54:17)
I concerned about sharing with some people because I think I don't want to be stressed and worried that they're going to feel like they have to take care of me. certain people, I'm not going to share it with them because I know that they're going to feel like they've got to do something for me. Not that they're going to want to, but they're going to feel like it. And I don't want to have that stress of sharing this. think that's a dude thing. Maybe so. Is that a dude thing? I don't know that it's I think that's probably, so I want to share this with you.

Speaker 2 (54:40)
Yeah

Or you're typically

women share more than men do, I guess.

Speaker 1 (54:49)
I think men think

we can handle it all. My point is not that I feel like I can't handle it, I know that. But I'm concerned about who I share. So I have people who I know I can share with you because I know that you'll just listen. You know that all you can do is listen. So I feel safe sharing it with you because all you can do is listen and you understand that. And I'm not going be worried that you're going to put things aside that you need to do.

because you're going to step up. I misinterpreted what you're saying. There are specific people that you can open up to and know that they're going to.

Speaker 2 (55:19)
But that's what I mean by friend.

Friends can

be a sieve. They're not going to hold it. They're not going to make you feel like you're weighing them down. But they can let it go through and they can carry that value and you're sharing that value that's left behind. And it's very like this the older I get the smaller my circle gets. It's important. Yes.

Speaker 1 (55:37)
At the end of the biggest...

I think one of the biggest lessons in when Elise had her first surgery, you know, people would come to the door and want to help and I'd say, we're fine, we're fine.

Service is allowing other people to serve you. I was like, I need to stop doing that. And just welcome. Because if I had a friend who was going through something, I'd be at their door with food or.

Speaker 2 (56:01)
and to grieve and to share.

Anything. Anything, yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:16)
But, and then to have them say, we're okay. I'd be like, dude, you're, you are blocking my opportunity to serve you. And I kind of let that go. I let that go. And it was such an amazing, amazing epiphany that service is giving, but it's also receiving. And there was a lot of joy in receiving and having people come.

Speaker 2 (56:42)
And that comes back to the render.

Saying, okay, you can come in my house and clean my bathroom. But one of the greatest, and I remember when our living room looked like a rest home and I couldn't move after my open heart surgery.

Speaker 1 (56:45)
It's very vulnerable.

I'm sorry for saying we're fine.

Speaker 2 (57:01)
And, you know, of course people were coming to, like, I'd keep the door shut sometimes, but people would do all these nice things. But the greatest, the greatest gift that I was given, someone came and said, Elise, this isn't for you. This is for Chris. And they brought him lunch.

Speaker 3 (57:14)
was.

Speaker 1 (57:23)
because

Speaker 2 (57:24)
They remembered

the caretaker. Yeah, I was so grateful. thought thank you for remembering him ⁓ He's going through this too and the caretakers the caretakers need to be cared for Because they can't do anything and they're they're hurting. Yeah, I think more than the person that's because he can't can't fix it

Speaker 1 (57:36)
What?

Where did that awareness

come from? Because that's a beautiful awareness. lot of people don't have that awareness. I wonder if he's been through that before.

Speaker 2 (57:48)
and it was a guy, he a man that did it he

came over with a plate of steak and he said this is for Chris I don't mean to be mean Elise but this is the I know you're getting enough it's for Chris but that wasn't what it was about he wanted to spend time he talked with him he sat and

Speaker 1 (57:59)
You couldn't eat really. It was a surrender. ⁓

Speaker 2 (58:11)
gave all his time to Chris and I have never, that was the greatest gift for me that helped me remember that when someone's going through something, what can you do for their spouse? What can you for their kids? What can you do, like, you know, you can give your love to them too, but a greater way to love, I think, is remembering people that are also going through it.

Speaker 1 (58:33)
I think

this is a great point. I have about an hour and then it shuts, we gotta start over again. But I think we got like maybe 10 minutes. But I love this idea because in my mind I think, all right, do we, life is suffering, we all suffer. mean, it's, so how do we resolve? we seek to numb ourselves? Or how do we handle it? And I think one way to process that is to be vulnerable and accept the help that people.

give us because that strengthens our connection and in fact that's what I talked about in the torchlight back in April after I all my poetry is I feel like the power behind suffering is it it provides a mechanism through which we can connect as

We all have suffering in common and when we try to numb that and we try to shut it off I mean have you ever been around somebody who you know is just trying just like the bro just doesn't suffer. He's all good

Speaker 3 (59:35)
Thanks

Speaker 2 (59:37)
You

can't connect with them. You can't really go on. But you can't connect with that person. It's shiny on the outside. There's no way to have a connection.

Speaker 1 (59:45)
⁓

So when you're vulnerable and you accept your suffering like a significant event in my life it was this like During the period of my separation before I get divorced I was living in my office for six months just sleeping on a three inch foam mattress I didn't realize how depressing it was I'd get up work go back to sleep and I never left a shower and Vasa once a week or something and

A friend of mine, I went to lunch with him near the end of it and he found out that that's what was going on. And he said, you gotta get out of there, Scott. You've got to get out of there. I'm like, all right, I had no idea what to do. I mean, my mind was scrambled. And so he spent the rest of the day with me looking for apartments. Didn't find anything, send anything that day.

went to sleep, 8 o'clock in the morning, there's a knock on my office door, he's standing there with two homemade fruit parfaits, he's like, come on, it's time to get up, it's time to get up, we gotta get you going. I don't care what that man does for the rest of his life, I will always love him, because he didn't have to do any of that, I didn't know that I needed it, I didn't know even what to do, he saw it.

Speaker 3 (1:00:48)
Hmm. ⁓

Speaker 2 (1:01:04)
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (1:01:05)
He saw it

and he said, you can't get out of it. And so I've connected, like there's a connection now with him that I don't know that I can have to be broken. I don't know that. And so that's like this suffering that we go through. is, if we will accept it and just know that this is something I'm passing through, then that breaks down our walls. And then other people who are suffering.

They see you and they feel that's a safe person that I can go be with and be comforting with. You may not be suffering from the same thing, you, I'm sure each of you, I know I have, when I'm around somebody who I know accepts suffering or who I know sits in it, I feel it. It's It's comfortable. There's a safety. It's just like, I can be with you.

I don't have to pretend to be somebody else. It's okay to cry when I'm with you.

Speaker 2 (1:02:07)
You don't have to go

through the same thing to relate to pain. I haven't been divorced, I have empathy and can feel pain that you've been through because I've also been through pain. It's ⁓ grief. That won't be there at that level if you just know the struggle. You understand personal hardship.

Speaker 1 (1:02:11)
Exactly.

And to be able to just, that's been the biggest lesson for me these last few years is to just accept the suffering and try to do what I can about it, but also not hide it. That's the best, that's the whole purpose of the podcast.

Speaker 2 (1:02:51)
You

feel like it releases judgment as well. Like maybe you see people differently. Oh, totally. I know I react to people differently or if someone, I mean 20 years ago, if someone were to, if I ever see someone in the parking lot being unkind or yelling or something, you're actually be like, dude, what is your problem? And now I just feel like I just want to pray for them or I want to hug What's going on in your life? I want to give them a hug because something is going on. Right.

that they feel they have to treat someone that way. Like they are the one, or you think about the kids, I think about the kids that I knew in junior high that were always starting a fight, or always just the mean boys specifically. now as an adult, and as you go through the years and you look back and you hear about how their life was, and I just think, no wonder. They tried to control something. And I just want to give them a hug.

Speaker 1 (1:03:44)
⁓ Elder Eyring said something in a general conference once that was so profound. said when you meet someone Assume that they're going through something very difficult And it's true nine times out of ten. You'll be right. Yeah, it's so profound Like if we could just change that mindset We were talking about homelessness earlier and I was listening You know, I used to always say well, hey if you got a healthy body you go out go find a job

Speaker 2 (1:04:02)
True to the truth.

Speaker 1 (1:04:12)
I understand now like with some of my own personal struggles right now. were homeless in your office. Effectively I was. How... I mean with even other things I'm struggling with right now I'm just thinking no I need to be more gentle. Not judgmental. I just need to be gentle. And maybe I don't give them money. Maybe I find some way to help them that I feel is productive. But no more... get a job.

Speaker 2 (1:04:17)
Very healthy.

Isn't that why in this form we're told to let everything happen to you because that's how we serve and use ourselves as vessels to help other people and see the value in them. Think if you never had struggles, you have any reason to build relationships?

Speaker 1 (1:05:00)
No,

and you wouldn't be...

Speaker 2 (1:05:01)
You

know, you think you're, you know, the reason we have those things is to have empathy for each other and connect with each other and look at the homeless people and just say, wow, like I wonder, like they've been through something hard instead of go get a job. Because that shift takes place when you have something happen to you where you have been brought down.

Speaker 1 (1:05:20)
If you let it go through you, if you don't try to push it off and pretend like you don't feel that. If you surrender to it, that just opens your heart. Whenever there's a tragedy or something, communities connect. ⁓ There's love and there's friendship. Ideally, we don't need tragedy to connect.

Speaker 2 (1:05:28)
surrender.

Speaker 1 (1:05:46)
because we all have tragedy every day. We all have tragedy in our lives every day. to this, like maybe this community wide tragedy, but we are all suffering. In fact, I found this book of Haiku on here. ⁓ Book, yes you can. I know, but it's not very good.

Speaker 2 (1:06:01)
We have all of Scott's books.

Hahaha

Speaker 1 (1:06:08)
We're

to talk about your Bates thing. Self-Defricating. Horrible, Worst poem I've ever Worst one ever. I wrote this.

Speaker 2 (1:06:16)
And you know what, I just say something real quick before you start? This creation and this beauty from your soul, didn't that derive from hardship? Right.

Speaker 1 (1:06:24)
It all did.

Like one here. So much of it is informed by poetry. This one is, pain is part of life. To avoid it is a death. Find meaning instead. Like it is, I remember just one day thinking if I avoid pain, I'm just numbing myself. And what's different? When you're dead you don't feel. When you're numb you don't feel. There's no difference.

And if all you're looking to do is to feel happy all the time, that's not real. You can't feel happy all time.

Speaker 2 (1:07:02)
I worry about when they're only happy. I mean, choose

joy, yeah, but like also feel the pain.

Speaker 1 (1:07:08)
Somewhere a celebrity passed away. I'm to remember where I heard this. I'm gonna totally butcher it. Maybe it was Jim Carrey that said this. But a friend of his passed away and his immediate reaction was to curl up and disappear and numb it. ⁓ And his friend came to him and said to get through it faster you've got to feel it all.

You've got to take it all on the chin to get through it faster. I went, wow, that's really profound. I totally butchered it. It's probably more eloquent than that. But that's the gist. I think I've heard that. I think it was Jim Carrey. You just don't numb yourself out of it. Yeah. The fastest way through is to just take it on the chin and keep it all.

Speaker 2 (1:07:59)
He also,

Jim Carrey, if you've ever gone on YouTube or something and listened to his graduation when he speaks, he's eloquent and incredible. And there was something that he said that just I thrive on, that he says, you can fail at something you're good at, you're badass, so why not do the things you love?

If you can fail at something, he talks about how his dad or someone, or maybe it was him at one point, his dad really wanted to be what he was doing. But it was safe to be an accountant. And so Jim learned from an early age, like, you know what, he was never happy. Like you can fail at what you don't love, so why not do what you love. I like rock.

Speaker 1 (1:08:39)
I like it a lot.

Speaker 2 (1:08:42)
So

Scott was talking about failure early on and I just... is there such a thing? I really... and people weigh success in different ways where financially or relationships or whatever that is, it's all relative. But I really don't believe in the word failure unless... I'll read this poem again. Unless you finalize that feeling.

Unless you keep it final, then you can feel like you've failed. But that's how you learn. mean, that's no new news. But try and try again and fail nine times to maybe succeed ten.

Speaker 1 (1:09:28)
I read this

quote, 1995, and I don't remember the exact quote anymore, but I like the way I remembered it better. And the quote was, there's no bigger waste of time than excelling at something you shouldn't be doing in the first place. Isn't that good? I don't remember what the exact quote was. I probably could find it if I Googled it, but I think that is, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (1:09:46)
I love that. ⁓

Cause I am really good at puzzles. I'm just kidding.

The dark has a little peek in

Speaker 1 (1:10:07)
I think about that a lot about success and failure because we judge that

by what society tells us is success and failure. We've lost our own personal judgments on the thing. Like we have to do things a certain way in order to excel in We need a resume before we die. When we die there needs to be a resume. Right. Who's going to ever look at that again? I mean we all want to make a mark on this planet, but it's with the lovelace. It's people that we care about.

Speaker 2 (1:10:45)
And

that's thing, took my health demise, third lagerbiderm, to realize, and I'm a go-getter, all these things, have a have a product line, all this kind of stuff, where all of that just went away, when all of my health stuff happened, where I thought, my legacy, like if we leave behind a legacy,

that became my girls. ⁓ know? Like these humans that I leave behind on the earth that hopefully can make the world a better place by whether that's through their kids or whether that's through kindness, whatever it is, that's more of a legacy than...

cookbook that do or my product line or you know what mean like things that I feel a trust our success you know or yeah any other thing that I could hold as successful is you know that that became my my kids

Speaker 1 (1:11:50)
You mentioned something earlier before we started recording and I don't know if it's appropriate to bring it up here but somebody, I'll just use generic names, somebody that you know, has spent a lot of time at school and feels like he or she missed out on formative years of children's lives. For the pursuit of the latter.

Speaker 2 (1:12:16)
Success.

Speaker 1 (1:12:18)
success and there was no malice in that there what was being done like this is important I mean it's important to get an education it's important to get a job and sometimes I mean sometimes you can't avoid that yeah

Speaker 2 (1:12:35)
Yeah, I mean it's not.

Speaker 1 (1:12:37)
It's a hard, it's a hard

try. I'm sure it's on. No, it's not. It's not that it's. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (1:12:42)
I mean like

whatever they pursued wasn't wrong right

Speaker 1 (1:12:46)
I shared this on an earlier podcast with you. was sharing it. My daughter was three. I was traveling. I was gone three weeks out of the year of month.

called me.

Speaker 2 (1:12:58)
I thought it was sweet.

Speaker 1 (1:13:00)
listened to what Maya said,

this is the sweetest thing. We were out walking outside and she pointed up in the sky and saw an airplane. And she said, look mom, there's dad. And it just about ripped.

Speaker 2 (1:13:10)
I would never have said that if I thought he would have taken it that way. I ⁓

Speaker 1 (1:13:13)
There was no malice in me. I was in DC

when she called me. No, there's no malice. I just said, you know, what am I doing?

And I gave him my two weeks and I got...

Speaker 2 (1:13:22)
You quit that week?

Not everyone reacts that way. Not everyone, you know?

Speaker 1 (1:13:29)
It wasn't

worth the paycheck wasn't worth the letter wasn't worth it to me at that time and I realized that I and I'd had this job for a year and I was gone.

and for who? An extra ten grand a year or whatever it was? am I doing? There are different ways. Yeah, anyway, that was just a huge epiphany that kind of helped me course correct.

Speaker 2 (1:13:45)
Yeah, they'll smell.

Speaker 1 (1:13:57)
listen probably not but that was a good one.

Speaker 2 (1:14:01)
And look where it took you though. That's the real story. It's like look where you are now. Look what you're doing now. That's a whole other chapter that you wouldn't have.

Speaker 1 (1:14:13)
Life is interesting. 20 years ago, you have said, I'm going to open a bakery? I don't do that. Ali said, oh, hell no. Yeah. She said, hell.

Speaker 2 (1:14:20)
Bye!

No, I thought I was going to be working for the EPA and being a park ranger. That was my goal. I wanted to 100 %

on a horse in Yosemite. Yes, that will be my retirement. ⁓ Living in my camper. Yep.

Speaker 1 (1:14:44)
is

interesting how it bifurcates and you went this way and it totally my career path totally changed.

Speaker 2 (1:14:51)
Yeah,

and I was talking to my daughter about this today She is in the middle of doing all these things and she is a jack-of-all-trades. She makes beautiful cakes She does all these amazing things. She is an artist out of this world artist, but she they bought their first home and she is Skim coating walls and hanging drywall and she you know mom. I just hammered my finger Let me call you back, you know and the thing I I realized

And maybe, I don't know, I think all of us parents, we just have these moments of like, who is this person that came out of me?

I should say women. Anyway, I'm just like, who are you? You're so like incredible. They're everything I want to be. Everything I want to be. I know I'm like, you're just so amazing. But I look at what our life was and just having that moment of, you know, recognizing that the pain that we went through, the hardships. That they did too. That they went, yeah, that we endured as a family.

all played a part in this beautiful life she's creating for herself right now. And all, it's kind of that full circle moment. I'm like, I can see it. I'm like, you know what? Bakery sucks on a lot of days. My kids had to walk home from school and whatever, but you know what I am proud of? Even if I don't end up with this legacy of whatever that I would hope it to be.

My kids learned how to work. We spent every Thanksgiving. I have a picture of my daughter, her first Thanksgiving, working at the bakery. She cleaned this little, you know, 12 inch square spot on the floor, the only clean spot, and took a nap because we pulled an all nighter. did a 24 hour shift. We're seeing my son come in after school and cut arm holes in a garbage bag to go do dishes and come out with bloody hands because he's like, Mom, I couldn't get the chart on whatever.

My kids, yeah, they look different. Well, it's they watch their family though. We did it was a family. It was we did it as a family It wasn't just me. It was I know my husband helped me build this and we did it as a family Yeah, and if any I'm so grateful that my kids Learned how to work that they learned the importance and the value if you don't have the answer Figure it out. There is another way and yeah, so

I mean, how can I not be I've said this a thousand times to I want to rewrite I want to start a new chapter I want to start a new whatever and it's like I can't I can't forget what we just went through Yeah, this doesn't mean you have to live in that it doesn't mean that that has to be your everyday existence but that pain yeah, and that struggle and that Get somebody that I had to walk through my own brought me to this place of just

I can love, I am grateful, like I wouldn't be who I am without that. And so like you said Elise, how can I wish that away?

Speaker 1 (1:18:03)
I told my

girl going through this last year and a half of Finally it reached a point where I said we need to go see some Therapists I want our family to be prepared not only for life, but for a leader

Speaker 2 (1:18:20)
Grievance

counseling is different when you're grieving yourself. Yeah. And you're not realizing what's going on with your kids.

Speaker 1 (1:18:25)
I

said I just want our ship to be righted if anything happens. you know there were really great conversations with our girls, they're adults now and so we have amazing conversations and I said you know they brought up some things that we did as parents that aren't perfect. I'm like get used to it. We were learning how to parent when you were born. ⁓ You're gonna do the same thing.

Speaker 2 (1:18:43)
Yeah, that.

We're,

Your job is to be better than me.

Speaker 1 (1:18:52)
I

said your job is to take the good things that we instilled in you and taught you and

Speaker 2 (1:18:59)
And do better. better. But we were... And not having the situation you had, this is a very, very different, you know, we had to, we provide opportunities for our kids to suck it up basically, but...

Speaker 1 (1:19:02)
you didn't like the way we did it, do it better.

Speaker 2 (1:19:15)
when our oldest daughter was in college for those first few months or first year and You know we pay tuition they pay everything else. Yeah, and that's that's lucky. You know We already have We worked our way so they were already letting them know this is very generous Yeah, so she she calls up and you know, she's like, okay mom. This is a few months into it. She was mom

rent is due in six days and I'm $200 short and I don't know what to do. We're just letting her sweat, you know? ⁓ we said no. I said, Maya, you what's great about this? She said, what? I said, you've got six days to make something happen. Right. She said, what? I said, you're not seeing this from the perspective of, you're telling me you have six days. ⁓

Speaker 1 (1:20:07)
We did tell

her we don't have $200, so there was that.

Speaker 2 (1:20:11)
She's like, are you serious? And we're like, just because giving them the lesson. Right. You can't just be rescued all the time. No, don't rob them So we're kind of laughing about it. I will never forget, it was a Friday. She calls back six days later. I picked up two extra shifts. I asked people if I could take their shift or whatever.

Speaker 1 (1:20:24)
Ma

Speaker 2 (1:20:29)
She said, so I made $300, but I'm not going to have a paycheck for two weeks, so can I borrow the money? I said, absolutely. What do mean, absolutely? said, not only did you make more than what you needed, but you just wanted to have hustle. And later on, our son-in-law, he had said, thank you for teaching. I know if something were to happen, she's not going to crumble. She makes things happen, and we can do this together.

Speaker 1 (1:20:40)
You said that.

are the same I

Speaker 2 (1:20:59)
I mean, but

very different situation where we weren't having to, you know, do the drywall and making these things, but you have to give your kids opportunities to struggle. You gotta say no. think the greatest I love you is no. Yes, exactly. The greatest I love you is no. I'll get it later.

Speaker 1 (1:21:09)
I think we scared our kids

I we've probably scared

I mean I've told them girls this world will eat you up faster

You need education whatever that is I'm starting to think that college may not be the best route for a lot of kids Yeah, yeah, and I said if I if you have a career that you want it go for it

Speaker 2 (1:21:44)
Right, it's just an insight.

Absolutely. Yeah,

you know how to be respectful and

Speaker 1 (1:21:53)
Some kind

of education you talked about you research that's education that's learning whatever it is whatever you want to do become YouTube certified Or I thought about just taking pictures of my feet for only fans

Speaker 2 (1:22:16)
It's disgusting.

them.

Speaker 1 (1:22:21)
Yeah.

No, like what you talked earlier, I think that's very important. There's also another little aspect because I grew up never feeling like I could ask for anything. Never feeling like it was safe to ask for anything. And the impact that has is that I don't feel like if I am 200 bucks short, I'm

There's no life lost. I'm done. There's no hope for me. I can't even ask for it because I've been taught as a little kid, you know, I don't have a... So I think there needs to be a balance there.

Because I think it's very important for kids to learn, you can do this. Like, you can do this. But it sounds like you to create this atmosphere where your kids believed you and they knew that you believed in them. Whereas I didn't ever feel that way. felt like...

Speaker 2 (1:23:17)
Our

kids learned early on that they go to Chris and ask something and you know like or they came to me we were the same and that was one thing that we said it's not mom's gonna let me do this. That's amazing. If dad said no it's not. I didn't have that.

Speaker 1 (1:23:29)
Let me ask you this. For

example, my daughter needed new tires on her car. She makes a minimum wage. Okay, let's talk about a plan. Yes. Let's talk about a plan to help you all pay for some. So we're not totally brick wallpapers. Yeah, I don't think you are. But what I'm saying, you're kids. You can't afford This is a matter of you getting to work or not.

Speaker 2 (1:23:40)
Mm.

Speaker 1 (1:23:58)
So we will help you. They know, they feel safe talking. They know they can help.

Speaker 2 (1:24:03)
Nobody can ask. They know

it's not going to be given, but they know they can ask for a solution.

Speaker 1 (1:24:08)
And then if you say no,

they can talk to you about a solution. Because there's other ways that you can help them other than just giving them the money. It's not like you say, sorry, figure it out, click.

Speaker 2 (1:24:19)
Well, and the greatest thing is I remember calling my parents my first semester in college and talking with them instead of we're talking at each other. Like I was asking them for advice. Like, you you go into adulthood and it's like, oh, I'm starting to, these rose colored glasses are coming off. I'm starting to get it. I understand why they didn't let me do this because I have roommates that have never used a credit card before that couldn't tie their shoes because their parents had done everything for them. And I was so grateful. I called my parents and said, thank you.

had a job since I was 13. Yeah. I'm self-sufficient and my girls did the same thing. You know what? You know that you have a safety net if you need it, but it's not thrown at you. And the trust that they It's not given to you. have to have... Like we have friends back East that... you know that like several different friends back East that think it's like, wait your kids have jobs? You guys had jobs during college?

You didn't. You didn't? You know, it's like totally different ways of life and there's not a right or wrong. But we just chose to, you know, because our kids know that they, that, you know, they're not suffering. So we had to give it to them. It's like, you know, you want something, you earn it.

Speaker 1 (1:25:32)
We told them it will

always be there and I said, okay, if you, said this to my oldest who got married, my age got married a year and a half ago, two years ago. There may come a time when you need help. You need a place to live. You need help. You may lose your jobs. Things will happen. The vicissitudes of life are just on the brink for you. You can come here for three months. Then I'm kicking you out.

Speaker 2 (1:25:52)
Yeah.

Ha

Speaker 1 (1:25:59)
And I remember seeing a documentary I think it was Leon Spinks of the boxer he had lost everything Banker he had millions he lost everything and he went to his dad and he said And Leon starts crying one of the one of those big boxers

Speaker 2 (1:26:18)
Thank

Speaker 1 (1:26:30)
He didn't let me be comfortable. That's a little brick wall, but I wouldn't have gone that far. it's an interesting, your perspective that your kids are becoming adults and thinking like adults. It's a fun time.

Speaker 2 (1:26:38)
Yeah.

Coming back to what's

failure, you have to have opportunity to see and it's really hard as a parent but like and we've all been there in very different on different spectrums. You don't want them to fail but you have to let them like you like they make their own decisions and you just you can't do anything about it. You just watch it happen. You're just watching. You can support them but all you're doing my mom actually said years ago she said ⁓

Speaker 1 (1:27:05)
You can support the

Speaker 2 (1:27:15)
Raising three-year-olds is so much easier than raising adults because they're making their own decisions. You just have to sit back and watch it. And it's really hard. And I never understood that. And now it's like, you know what? It's okay to let them fail because that's how they've got to, like, you know, they've got to.

Like once the chicken lays the egg and it's over there, they've got to pick their way out of it. It is the most painful thing though, to watch them The chicken has to watch that egg crack. yeah. I'm like my baby, I'm watching them self-destruct when I my son and his story and finding, you know, just god-

over him tonight. Calling on any angel. had no choice and and but yet the heart is like when yeah I mean it just

You just sit back and watch it and just say, they've got to make decisions. They've got to make decisions. Please let them get out of this. Yeah. Yeah. Please let me find the meaning in us going through this. And then one day they look back and that's a chapter that brought them to where they are now. Yeah. In fact, speaking of Nietzsche, you had mentioned this that, you know, Joseph Campbell had written, I have this pretty memorized because it's just something that are, I say it in my classes all the time.

Joseph Campbell wrote, was a time in Nietzsche's life where the idea came to him of what you call the love of your fate. Whatever your fate is, whatever happens, you say this is what I need. And go about it if it were an opportunity or a challenge. If you bring love to that moment, not discouragement, can find that strength is there. Any disaster you can survive is an improvement in your character, your stature, and your life. And what a privilege.

This is when the spontaneity of your own nature has a chance to flow. Then we're looking back at your life. The incidents that seem to be great failures followed by wreckage are the incidents that shape the life you have now. So looking back, can, you might see that this is true. Nothing can happen to you that is negative. The way you go about it, the choices you make is certainly is not.

Speaker 1 (1:29:31)
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. That's how Nietzsche.

Speaker 2 (1:29:33)
I mean so look

at you know look at the situation now look at you know where we are look at all these all these things where I don't think any of us are doing what we thought we were gonna do 20 years ago right we're not where we were 20 years ago and that's not a bad thing it's we probably I bet we all surprise ourselves ⁓ we've gone beyond what we thought our goal would be yeah

Speaker 1 (1:29:58)
There's

a line in the Good Luck Archipelago written by Alexander Stoltz-Chemitsyn. Do you know anything about him? He was born in 1914, so right at the time of the...

Bolshevik Revolution. During World War II, was an officer for the Soviet Army. He wrote a letter to friend where he just wrote a couple critical points of Stalin while they found it. He ended up spending, I don't remember how many years it was in the Gulag Archipelago. So he was there. And I think everybody needs to read this book. It's three volumes. But while he was there,

turned his gaze inward and thought to himself, what did I do to put me here? He could have blamed Stalin, could have blamed Hitler. He just wrote a couple things that were insane, not even that bad about Stalin. And here he is in hard labor camp in Siberia and he thought, what did I do?

And so he determined, mean, so what the Gulag Archipelago is, is it's just, he gathered as many ⁓ stories that he could for people, like what it was like to be arrested, what it was like to be interrogated, put, I mean, it's a massive undertaking. ⁓ In fact, some people cite that as a big reason for the fall of the Soviet Union.

It's really scary. eye-opening definitely to read that book. But he says in there, I love this line, says, draw conclusions from your misfortunes. ⁓ is perfect. Draw conclusions from your misfortunes. Like, suffering happens, bad things happen. Are you going?

Speaker 2 (1:31:47)
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 (1:32:00)
Like there's that haiku, healing alchemy. That load you struggle under, is it lead or gold? We all suffer. We all struggle. We all have a heavy load. What are we gonna do with it? Is it gonna be lead?

Speaker 2 (1:32:18)
And that's the thing, that's your choice. All you can control is how you, the choices you make in that situation. Because you can't control what other people do, you can't control what happens to you, you can't control how you react to it.

Speaker 1 (1:32:21)
Exactly. get all turkeys.

And it's not going

to make the suffering go away. No. But what are you going to do? It doesn't make it okay.

Speaker 2 (1:32:38)
And it doesn't make it okay.

And it doesn't mean that, you're just gonna make up happy. It's just, you you have to feel it. You know, I talk about feeling, choosing joy all the time. But that's also, that could be five minutes. That could be doing a puzzle rather than laying in bed. That could be... ⁓ But it's also not avoiding, you know, saying that and choosing happiness and choosing joy doesn't mean avoiding the pain. It just means don't stay there. Yeah, don't get stuck in the mud.

Speaker 1 (1:32:54)
Duck puzzle.

Speaker 2 (1:33:09)
Just don't stay.

Speaker 1 (1:33:10)
I say don't rent a room. I said that to a friend of mine who was going through a time. It's okay to go through that despair town.

Speaker 2 (1:33:20)
Yeah. Don't rent or He reminded me the other day, he's like, hey, you're letting it rent space without your permission. I know. I know I am. I'm letting it And it's not paying me. It's just.

Speaker 1 (1:33:28)
giving it more energy than you need.

I

think choice and agency is one of the most amazing gifts because every person is going to choose differently. That's one of the reasons why I went into psychology is the human brain and one person's interpretation of pain. That's why we have the DSM, I think, rather DSM of seven or eight, ten. It's up there. But it was fascinating to me that

Speaker 2 (1:33:54)
⁓ there.

Speaker 1 (1:34:02)
under the same stressor, people will react differently.

Speaker 2 (1:34:06)
differently.

Speaker 1 (1:34:09)
is so individualistic and amazing and they codified it into this diagnostic tool. was really just the human behavior is just so amazing.

Speaker 2 (1:34:22)
someone

punches you in the face you either get back and punch him back or say why did you do that or sit and laugh like dude what's your problem you know there's different reactions to the same don't compare crosses yeah that's nearly what's stressful for me yeah yeah

Speaker 1 (1:34:31)
Yeah, just.

may not be stressful for Elise, but I find

that that's true all the time.

Speaker 2 (1:34:40)
And a trial that you go through that was, that you ⁓ you skipped right over it may be debilitating for someone else or something that someone really your bottom, ⁓ you don't know what that is because you could always hit lower than the place you've been. But when you feel you've been at your bottom and you've crawled your way out.

those other little things are just not, like I said before, it's just not a big deal. The sun shines brighter. You can trip and be like, know, where before without hitting rock bottom, it's like, I tripped. I tripped.

It's like, ⁓ you know, tripping over rocks, no big deal.

Speaker 1 (1:35:24)
I've noticed the things that I'm struggling with right now. I had this ⁓ realization the other day. just thought, you know, if I could design a condition or a set of conditions that would provide the most... ⁓

for me to break out of these things I've struggled with my whole life it's what I'm going through right now. I just look at it I think I don't like this situation, this situation but

You're saying it's the perfect recipe? perfect recipe, Gluten free, bake it up. But I can't imagine a situation that would be more effective if I, and I'm not doing it perfectly, and I'm fumbling forward to be sure, but I just think, okay, I see how this.

Series of events or this set of circumstances. Yeah is like right? It's just the perfect I'm using all these metaphors. It's perfect like Petri did To break out of all of these these things I've shared with my whole life and how long is it gonna take? don't know. I don't know Have you ever read I'm gonna forget it CS Lewis though, and he talks about an angel

Speaker 2 (1:36:26)
Petri did. ⁓

I you.

Speaker 1 (1:36:46)
There's a chameleon on this guy's shoulder. It's ⁓ the great divorce. The great divorce. There's a podcast on that. ⁓ my gosh. So cool. Yeah, it's brilliant. When he finally let go, it turned into this beautiful horse. And he turned into a god. Yeah. One of the spiritual beings. It's been 20 years since I It's a brilliant story. ⁓ Guys, does anybody have...

foot rubs are alien. ⁓

Speaker 2 (1:37:17)
⁓

I'm extremely swollen right now. She's massaging the fluid. can't get your foot in my face without me wanting to do this. It's love. ⁓ I know. Let's not feel how puffy I am. I'm just kidding.

Speaker 1 (1:37:22)
I'm gonna film it and put it on.

Well,

anybody have any other thoughts on the poem on suffering and gluten free bakery?

Speaker 2 (1:37:50)
puzzles maybe ⁓

I have gratitude for the struggle and when I say I wouldn't take heart failure away I mean today sure but having gone through it like if it was something that was just a couple years of my life you know of course I'd wish for that but I'm I'm grateful for a struggle that honed that forced and honed the edges off of me

The defense mechanism, I think growing up with four brothers and being a river guide for so many years and just go out and I can do anything. And I was pretty, I had walls, pretty rough. It softened you. Yeah, and just kind of like, you know what, don't, my power is no longer the push, it's the softness. Yeah. There's a lot of power in just being gentle and the surrender and.

refiners fire and just having those edges honed off a bit, I could never take that back. I'm grateful for that.

Speaker 1 (1:38:54)
Any other thoughts? Before I put a cap on it with E.E.

All of you who stayed around through our wacky... Hello? Is this on? Is there anybody out there? Doesn't record it. What if we didn't?

Well for those of you who listened, thank you for sticking around and as always I'm going to close with EE Cummings, may I be I is the only prayer, not may I be great or good or beautiful or wise or strong. Until next time, thanks for listening.