Augusta DellÕOmo: Welcome to Right Rising a podcast from the Center for Analysis of the Radical Right. I'm your host Augusta DellÕOmo. Today I'm joined by Sabine Volk, a doctoral candidate at the Institute for European studies at Jagiellonian University in Krak—w. And she's here with us today to talk about the PEGIDA, a German far right group with a pan-European agenda. Sabine, thanks for being here. 
Sabine Volk: Hi, Augusta, thanks so much for having me today. That's really nice. 
AD: So, can we start off with the big question - for many of our listeners, they may not be familiar with PEGIDA and what is their role within the German far-right scene? 
SV: Sure. So, um, first of all, PEGIDA is a rather small scale political organization from the Eastern German city Dresden. Dresden is one of the largest cities in, in Eastern Germany and, uh, this group, uh, emerged in 2014. So, bit more than six years ago. And, uh, they organized regular demonstrations and, um, how when they emerged back then and the autumn, it really caused a huge media outreach and, and caused a lot of political discussion that's such a far-right movement is marching on the streets of a German city. Um, yeah, by the way, PEGIDA that this is short for ÒPatriotic Europeans Against the Easternization of the Occident or West or Europe,Ó as you want to translate it into English. And we can talk a bit more about that later. 
Uh, you also asked about their role within the German far, right? So, um, Yeah. PEGIDA is quite well. I'm quite well connected to others, German far-right organizations. They have ties with, uh, Germany's kind of newish uh, far-right political party, the AFD Alternative for Germany. They also have ties with, uh, Germany's largest far-right intellectual, uh, so-called think tank the Institute for State Politics and they have ties to all kinds of smaller and larger far-right organizations, far-right media, et cetera. And within this network, they are responsible for organizing what they call peaceful protest, so this regular protest on the streets of Germany. 
AD: Thanks for that overview Sabine and I did want to ask a question about the name PEGIDA, it's interesting that it stands for Patriotic Europeans, which in some ways it's kind of a sort of pan-European ethos. It's, you know, isn't that a contradiction with their, what seems to be quite a nationalist outlook. 
SV: Yeah, it's a, it sounds like a total paradox, but somehow it is, and somehow it it's also not really. Yeah, because this, uh, PEGIDA movements or these so-called patriotic Europeans, they are totally against Europe as a political entity as in the case of real existing European integration. So what we now have as the European Union. But they are also - or claim to be - extremely pro-European in a so-called cultural sense. So they see Europe as a historical community of peoples that share a common culture, a common cultural heritage, a common history. This history, usually they would say it includes Greek roots and Roman roots, but also some Germanic legacies. And then they're really stressed as Christian heritage of, um, of Europe. And so they say that um, Europe is actually a cultural community. They don't say, but I strongly believe that they also see this as an only white cultural community. So you have a certain white supremacist ideas that are present, even though they are not articulated, but they oppose, um, real existing European integration because they see the existing European Union as a decadent club of bureaucrats. And they think that it lacks democracy and their political idea of Europe that they also have would be a Europe of so-called sovereign states or sovereign nation-states. 
AD: That's really helpful Sabine breaking down both not only how they have a very specific German agenda, right, you're talking about their connections with the AFD, but also that they do see themselves within a sort of broader European idea of what the sort of far-right is working towards in a lot of different places. Could you drill down for us just a little bit about what is the kind of demographics? Do you have any sense of who are the kind of people that are involved with PEGIDA? Especially because in contrast with the AFD, which I think our listeners may know a little bit more about, if the PEGIDA is a little bit more smaller scale based in Dresden in what are the kinds of people that are involved in this organization, if you can get any sense of it. 
SV: Sure. That is an extremely important question, of course, who is actually PEGIDA and who is going to PEGIDA? Um, there is, or there was quite a lot of research at the beginning of that movement. So in 2014-15, a lot of research teams went there to survey the demonstrators. Um, it was overall quite difficult because, as typical for a far-right movement or far-right movement supporters many were not very keen on talking to researchers and journalists, but we have some, some quite good numbers from that time.
So the typical PEGIDA demonstrator would be kind of middle-aged. Between maybe 40 and 60 years old. Um, they are, the majority is male. Um, the majority has actually, and this was quite surprising to many researchers, um, they actually have rather good solid, um, social and education background. So it's not this idea of the far right supporter is being the left behind individual. Yeah. Most of them have, um, have kind of good education, kind of good income, um, even a bit above the national or the regional average. And, um, very small percentage is, uh, is without work. And well, I have actually also done, um, a couple of months of fieldwork within PEGIDA. Um, so I spent around six months in Dresden, during which I went to all their events that they organized. I did not, um, gather systematic data there on who are the participants, but I gathered all this data from my ethnographic observations and that can really confirm that these findings from early on, they still hold true. So a large majority being male kind of middle age and, um, in PEGIDA you will very rarely see this classic classical male Nazi or far-right extremists as we might picture with the shaved had or all the typical clothing style. 
AD: And I'm really excited to get more into your field research in a little bit, but first I do want to talk a little bit about the actual demonstrations that PEGIDA does. One of the unique things it seems to me about PEGIDA is oftentimes these far-right groups, they're not able to sustain themselves for long periods of time. They burn out after a couple of years, but they've been demonstrating as you said for more than six years. So how do you think that they've been able to persist over such an extended period of time and has this continued during the pandemic, and if so, how have they been able to maintain that while we've all been, especially in Germany, under such stringent lockdown measures?
SV: Yeah. Thank you for this question. This is, um, of course, an issue that we all struggle with all the small academic community, looking into PEGIDA and all the journalists that are observing them. Um, So, of course, all movements struggle with sustaining mobilization over a long period of time. Because usually people just get tired of demonstrating, um, with PEGIDA, there was also the factor of having a very negative media reporting, a very negative, uh, public backlash against this far-right movement. Um, another factor that might, um, discourage people from going to demonstrate, it's just, that's also physically exhausting. Many people have to travel there from, from the outskirts or the surroundings of Dresden, and then also on the square when you are there, it's just, it's cold. Often it can be windy. So you really need to prepare. When I was doing my field work and I knew catch night, I'm going to sort of PEGIDA even, I always had to really dress myself accordingly with many layers of clothes and hats and gloves. Not only in winter, but also, also in the fall, et cetera.
And so when I arrived to Dresden and also told local political scientists that I've asked to do a research in PEGIDA that many of them are really surprised and asked me, what is the PEGIDA? Does it still exist? So yes, it does, it still exists and persistent, and it even persisted over, uh, throughout the, the time of the pandemic, the lockdown, the restriction to, um, to public assembly. And this is really surprising. And my, um, my attempt to explain this is through this lens of PEGIDAÕs protest ritual, because what makes PEGIDA that kind of special and different also from other far-right organizations, is this very unique, PEGIDA political culture that they have managed to generate and to cultivate over all this time. And at the core of, of their political culture is their demonstration, which I see as a protest ritual, um, 
Maybe just very briefly, um, rituals are, um, we usually associate them with kind of religion and sacredness and spirituality, but actually, anthropology, modern anthropology and political anthropology also shows us that rituals have played an extremely important role in our modern societies and our modern democracies, such as presidential inaugurations, or many parliamentary proceedings. They are actually highly virtualized and they keep us together as a community. And that's also the case in PEGIDA. So this weekly or biweekly demonstration that they're organized, it's um, fulfilled all the structural criteria of a ritual because these demonstrations, they are highly standardized. They always follow the same rhythm, the same, um, the same rules. So they always start off with, uh, with the jingle, what they call the PEGIDA anthem, so it's their own small piece of music. Then there's always the same type of introduction. A couple of speeches. Always followed by a common march in the city center of Dresden. And then there will be some more speeches and, um, in the end they will finish their demonstration with a joint singing of the German anthem. And so there again, also, you have this national element now and, um, so this whole, um, this whole ritual is very well-choreographed. It follows a very strict choreography. Maybe like this. And, um, it really helps to, to keep these people together now. 
And I do believe that, um, it's not only something that PEGIDA that does, but the demonstration is actually what PEGIDA essentially is. So this movement constitutes itself through this demonstration and, um, people demonstrators and organizers even say that, Oh, next Monday, there will be a PEGIDA. So PEGIDA is essentially this event that they're organized. And on the square during the event, something happens to these demonstrators. They are suddenly not only average Dresden inhabitants anymore, but they are now PEGIDA demonstrators. So they constitute a community. They're a collectivity that engages in this collective movement, collective chanting, and clapping, et cetera. I think that they believe that they're transform into something like resistance fighters, democratic fighters, because they see themselves as the truly democratic resistance against, uh, against the totalitarian elite that has taken over Germany and through this protest ritual that they perform so regularly on the streets of Dresden, they express this political view and constitute themselves as a political entity.
AD: I really love this phrasing of the protest ritual, because I think it provides a nice way to encapsulate many of the dynamics coming from an American context that we've seen with far-right mobilization quite recently, in the US. And often, historically the narrative of these organizations is that they're sort of lone wolves or lone entities, but I really love the way that you've drawn our attention to the communal aspect and the collective mobilization that people who are part of groups like PEGIDA really are drawn to, and that provides them a sense of community that sustains them, even in these periods of scarce resources or lockdown. And I want to talk a little bit more about your experiences being on the square, observing PEGIDA what struck you most about being there?
SV: Yeah, many, many things struck me many things. I found surprising. Um, what was amongst the strangest things that I observed there was the specific use of historical symbolism, that PEGIDA that has. So usually if you go to a far-right event for a demonstration, you would expect to see some of these very typical far-right, uh, symbols, such as torches, or maybe even the swastika. This kind of thing, you will see it very rarely in PEGIDA, in terms of what you actually observed there is a lot of symbolism referring to the so-called peaceful revolution. So this is how in, in Germany, we call, um, the anti-socialist revolution that took place in Eastern Germany in the fall of 1989-1990 within the wave of the peaceful revolutions in the former so-called Eastern block and PEGIDA very heavily draws on this revolution to create meaning political meaning of the movement itself.
Um, next to that, they also appeal actually to the former German resistance against Nazism. Also they, again, use the symbolism that is somehow related to the Protestant Reformation of the Roman Catholic church or also to kind of intellectual history more broadly. And yeah, it's, it's really interesting this, this mix of references, of historical references that at first, I did not really understand why this makes, it seems somehow random. Um, and I believe that on the one hand PEGIDA uses these memories, uh, these historical references because all of them or , most of them somehow resonate with the local population. So Dresden was of course, one of the, um, one of the main places where this revolution in 1989 took place at the same time Dresden is also closely connected to this Protestant Reformation of the Roman Catholic church in the 16th century. Um, And, uh, so PEGIDA uses these memories because they are somehow rooted in this local or regional context. 
But what PEGIDA does then does with this memory is quite interesting because they use these references in order to construct a very powerful, um, very powerful framing, very powerful narrative of what they are actually doing. And the story that PEGIDA constructs is that they are uh, so PEGIDA demonstrators are basically these democratic resistance fighters that just like the anti-socialist demonstrators in 1989, but also like anti-Nazi resistance fighters in the 1940s or the anti-Catholic, Um, Um, well, or church critical monk, uh, Martin Luther, who was one of the main figures of the Protestant Reformation in, in Germany, um, in their tradition and following their example, PEGIDA now sees itself also as a democratic force. And they construct the story is that basically society is an eternal fight off of something that can oppress, uh, people or an oppressed majority. Um, that is oppressed by a totalitarian and even dictatorial elite. And so PEGIDA that uses all these memories in order to, to sustain this narrative that the current German political establishment, and especially Germany's long-term Chancellor, Angela Merkel, um, has overtaken, has adopted totalitarian, uh, forms of politics. So they would argue that Merkel and her entire entourage is actually an anti-democratic dictator that is taking away civil rights and even constitutionality from the German political context and PEGIDA, together with these other far-right organizations that form PEGIDA, that collaborates is now saving the German democratic system and also German constitutionality. And of course, these kind of references when a PEGIDA leader says, Oh, Eastern Germany, the GDR, the German Democratic Republic has come back. I think this is a very strong collective action frame to mobilize people, especially in that region. 
AD: That's absolutely fascinating Sabine. I also have a personal bias because I'm a historian, but we did an episode for Right Rising a few weeks ago with Louie, where we talked about the way that the far right uses and maybe abuses history. And I think one of the really striking things that you pointed out is, they're really pulling on these hyper-local historical memories, even as they have broader ambitions outside of just informing the German discourse around these particular issues. So with the time that we have left, can you talk a little bit about how you see PEGIDA fitting into the global patterns of the far right that we're currently experiencing? 
SV: Sure. Yeah. PEGIDA is definitely a quite typical example of, um, of current development of developments in the current far-right at least within Europe, more broadly. Yeah. Um, this populist, uh, collective action frame that their construct is I think very typical for also other movements, um, outside of Germany and even outside of Europe, um, within the, uh, Donald Trump's presidency in the United States, we also very strongly saw this, uh, these narratives that, um, there is this corrupted elite that, um, the good and the pure people has to go against. So PEGIDA really fits that image. PEGIDA also fits that image in the sense that they have adapted, uh, somewhat less extreme political discourse so that, um, they are not against democracy per se. They actually embraced democratic features. And as I explained, they even see themselves as the more democratic force within Germany.
So, so I think that PEGIDA, um, to some extent really reflects broader developments, um, maybe also in the way that they embrace the idea of being a non-violent movement and of using peaceful protest, um, which is of course not always, doesn't always, um, really take place. We have seen quite some instances at least of discursive violence within PEGIDA and some instances also of more physical violence against counter-demonstrators or journalists, but overall, they embrace this idea, um, that is very, very prominent in the European far right, that the method to go is to use this peaceful forms of resistance, um, in order to undermine the so-called left-wing opinion dictatorship.
AD: Sabine. That's absolutely fascinating. And thank you so much for being here today. Where can our listeners read more from you, hear more from you? Um, what exciting projects you have coming out? Are you on social media? Where can our listeners get into contact with you? 
SV: Yeah, sure. That would be great if, um, if some people want to follow up on some things and I'm always glad to, to share some ideas. So I am on Twitter under SabineDVolk. Um, I also, uh, um, represented on the CARR website as well, as well, as on my project websites, this is a popeurope.eu. And, um, yeah, I'm always glad to, to discuss and to share some papers and, um, hope you will enjoy. 
AD: And I think you also mentioned before we started recording a collaboration with horizon, is that true?
SV: Yes, I am. I'm an early career researcher within the Horizon 2020 Project Fatigue. Um, we produce really my colleagues and I produce the very cutting edge research on the recent rise of far-right and populist politics in Central and Eastern Europe. 
AD: Fantastic. Well, Sabine, thank you again so much for being here.
SV: It was a great pleasure. Thank you for having me. 
AD: This has been another episode of Right Rising. We'll see you all next time. .