Hello, and welcome
to Right Rising, the official podcast of the
Far Right Analysis Network. I'm your host,
Alexander Reed Ross. And with me today, again,
is Valerio Alfonso Bruno from the Università
Cattolica in Milan. Dr. Bruno is a research
fellow at the... Dr. Bruno
collaborates with Polidemos, a center
for the study of democracy and
political change, mainly researching
European and Italian politics with
a focus on populist and radical right
-wing parties. He has recently
published with co-author Mario Morini, The Rise
of the Brothers of italy organization
leadership and ideology available through
springer press and uh from what i hear the book is
selling like hotcakes congratulations dr bruno
thank you very much and thank you for
inviting me alexander it's always a pleasure
to be with you it is a really good book if
uh any of the listeners want uh to engage
with some of the ideas please listen to the
prior episode with Dr. Bruno, where we go
over kind of all of the nuances that he and
his co-author present. So today I brought Dr.
Bruno on the podcast to discuss all the
various goings on in italy uh it is a kind of
um complicated season with the judicial
referendum and local elections not anything
gigantic like next year's elections but a lot
of kind of signals for what we might be seeing
happening and um so yeah thank you very
much for joining and uh i'll get started so
i mentioned that the judiciary referendum uh
which has been in the works for quite a
while and was sort of attached to the star of
um prime minister maloney and it failed decisively
so what does the failure of the judiciary
reform say about so what does the
failure of the judiciary reform say about the
authority of prime minister georgia meloni
uh well uh i mean it was uh it's not something
you know that georgia meloni and their
fellow colleagues at Brothers of Italy may
want to show too much on their, let's
say, political list of achievements.
It was a very bad defeat, but still,
I would say, I mean, the debate whether
to have this kind of judicial reform, like
to separate the career between prosecutors
and and judges um i think was never really
something that uh italians cared about
they they were reading it more like uh on one
side right-wing uh politicians the government
on the other side like the the the
judiciary so one of the power of a state, one
of the three powers. A clash between these
two titans and eventually out of this clash
the government was emerging defeated. The left wing tried to frame it as a
victory, a political victory, but I will
not go rushing to conclusion that this
means automatically that the left
wing you know like in light of the
next the election general election of
next year will be automatically
victorious so yeah was a was a bad the defeat
also uh you you were mentioning the
the uh very recent election in several
cities and towns in Italian province were
quite bad for the current governing coalition
but still I mean at least for all
according to all the polls for what is worth
they are really the two blocks the right
wing at the center left they're really
polling neck to neck but as I said for what
is worth mentioning one key element is
that this government is one of the longest
lasting of the Italian Republic will mostly
arrive to the end of the legislature of the five
years so completing the full five years
mandate which is really something unique for
the Italian panorama so I guess they are
going to sell well the uh like narratives
about how good this uh this government was
providing stability um on the other hand
we uh apart from this you know like uh the
feats uh that you were mentioning the
judiciary reform the no uh not your uh
reform uh was defeated that the uh um the
government was defeated and uh again other um
uh recent elections i would say also
one thing to record that in the recent
in the recent weeks italian public debt
uh overtook greece as the the the the biggest
public tech debt of the european union
which is quite you uh something that
makes uh for italy italian politics
quite not only italian politics quite
a complicated outlook the economic
outlook outlook is is not very good
uh recently the the the outlook
of the italian government was uh
was put down by the f fmi uh fmi and
so it it means There are a lot of
things that, especially from economics and
finance, are not working well, that
this government was not able to manage,
to fix. I don't know if a left-wing
government in the future, this Campo Largo
coalition going from Movimento Cinque
Stelle to Partito Democratic and other
left-wing parties, will be able to end such
a possibly explosive situation. because
when you have the the biggest a big bar like
the biggest public debt in the eurozone
even more than than countries like Greece
Spain etc if you remember this famous
pigs Portugal and among these pigs Italy has
been very very very bad even though you know a
lot of rating agencies they they were quite
being appreciative of the Italian government
of some reforms introduced by Meloni
and their government. Also I would say the
stability the fact that Italy was able
to and perhaps will be able to have a government
on the full mandate. It was quite a good
signal to financial markets, to investors
to people that at the end have to buy the
Italian public debt. But still the
situation will be quite complicated and in the
italian history recent history financing
economics they always been playing a major role
if you look at the end of berlusconi political
career and political trajectory it was in
early put down because of the italian public
debt so in any case either will be the
right wing confirming uh so another melone
government or like on the other hand like center
left i mean both the political subjects will
have a very complicated time to have to face
uh you know like governing with such a
constraint yeah so how much of the current
uh economic situation in italy is due to higher
fuel prices because of the turbulence in
the middle east oh for sure the the the
war in iran and you know the the inflation uh
related to like um first of all of course
fuel they're having an an impact on uh the
lies and the pockets of of Italians and for sure
most of the Italians they are not happy
that the government is aware of this it's
not something positive to have one year from
the general election to have to explain your
citizen how to have you know to arrive at
the end of the month and this I would say
this just the beginning of the inflation we
are going to see in the next month. So
again, it was not a good news for the government,
even though, of course, this goes
really outside of
the competencies and politics that
this government could do. Nobody could prevent
this this war and so all the governments
in Europe I mean they have to deal with
this kind of like very very complicated
situation but again like if you add this the
fact that Italy comes from having the biggest
public debt of all in Europe doesn't really
help yeah so you mentioned stability And
it seems like a lot of the stability of the
present coalition is due to the fact that Lega
has remained there. And that's actually
apparently been a little costly for Salvini,
the head of the party, given that now there's
a new group that has kind of left
Lega and formed a new kind of party called
National Future, right? And so this
is headed by Roberto Venacci, and he is
disappointed with Lega's sort of
capitulation to a more center-right position
than he prefers. Can you talk a little
bit about Venacci and National Future?
Is this a party that we can expect to kind
of take a big position on the far right?
Or do you think Lega is going to reabsorb
them once the next elections come around?
What do you think? Yeah, for sure. Like, at least, you know,
like looking at the polls, Lega is
keeping losing, like, its electorate. as Reddit did in the last years, especially in relation
to Brothers of Italy. Right now, it's
losing also possible votes because
exactly what you say, former Italian army
general Roberto Vannacci, first of all,
he wrote a few years ago a book, Il Mondo
all'incontrario, like very poorly written
book, but with some you know a very strong
you know like even if trivial ideas but
I would say this part of the success of the
far right worldwide everywhere you go the one way that
the far right make it to the electorate
is like to have communication
which is you know easier to be understood and also like more trivial and simplistic you know
like way to frame a problem not to look
at complexity so this is exactly what Van
Naci did in in his book and there was here
a first huge mistake by Salvini he thought
let's take advantage of this guy let's
keep you know Van Naci let's bring Van Naci
in our in our party because he knew he
was losing momentum vis-a-vis Brothers
of Italy and Meloni leadership so he thought
one way to stop this hemorrhagia is like
to bring inside Van Naci, but this is
really as a Troy horse. Van Naci was able
to use the platform of the Lega
and after a few years he left. Now
he has this new creator that you
were mentioning, Futuro Nazionale,
FN, which strangely resemble
to Forza Nuova and Futura Nazionale
according to again to political
polls is now polling between four and
five and I will not be surprised if in
the future starting from the next next
year election general election 2027 it will
play an important extremely important
role there was like I personally I
also had some like debates with some
Italian colleagues like you should
not emphasize too much the
role of Futuro Nazionale on Van
Nacci but I guess if these subjects like
Brothers of Italy and Salvini's Lega and
Futuro Nazionale, they want to play on the
same platform, as I said in the past, be aware
that Brothers of Italy has more points on
playing on this platform than Salvini's Lega.
If you want to play on the same platform
this time and you add also to the nazionale
but now she has more points so then okay
when once you're to government to govern you
have like constraints when you have to vote
on a foreign like policy you have constraints
financial markets you have huge constraints
but if we're just talking about gaining
votes political campaign building
narratives this guy can be really like explosive
and his new political political subject and
also I will do this consideration we are
talking about two political subjects center left
and right wing in Italy that according
to the polls now they are like really polling
neck to neck so can you imagine like a
little party even a party like polling at four
five or six percent can make a huge
difference in one of this coalition, namely the
right-wing coalition. And in case they
will, you know, like really,
really complicated, but if in case they will successfully won, there will be again a
right-wing government in Italy next year,
which is not that easy. But can you
imagine the bargaining power that a political
subject like the one of Annacci will have
within the the coalition so i think it's like
a head of a nachi there is a lot of
you know like uh possibility to really
build a a a party that you know can do well
from you know in the close future yeah yeah
definitely um i mean italian governments have
fallen apart because they couldn't balance
budgets you know that's kind of a
normal thing to have happen so next year
you know it's gonna to inaugurate a new
difficulty for the Italian parliament to have to
actually work through the fiscal policy.
And it's going to be very difficult for
whoever is governing. But I think that the
big problem for the center left is, like
you were saying, if they get into power, are
they just going to move to another technocratic
regime and basically throw their entire
platform down the drain again you know
yeah yeah i mean like uh you completely have a
point i mean this is uh of course it's um
i mean politics is not easy to manage a
country like with a huge public that like
italy is not a an easy task for for anybody uh
but still like if it's the the the way it's
like recurring to technocracy then i
don't know if the the citizen they have to to
choose between you know radical politics and
technocracy i guess they will still
prefer like uh radical politics yeah but uh we
will see uh it's still fresh in the memory
of many italians what happened you know uh
in 2011 with the end of berlusconi uh last
government the Berlusconi fourth cabinet so
yeah for sure we can criticize as much as
we want this government led by Meloni but
it's really political government which may
seem like little sense but to Italians like
really it's not technical or technocratic or
like something that you know the president
of the republic is like you know a little
bit behind the scenes you know like pointing
the agenda like who should be the next
prime minister because the recent history of
Italy is a lot of that on the other hand this
government is like an answer to this kind of context like it's really completely political with all the pros and the cons I mean it's a similar
issue that the United States has on the
center left uh this problem of bringing
together a lot of different policies but not
having a a political narrative a kind of
um a larger program that will actually
persuade people that this is not just a collection
of you know different sort of technical
uh solutions that will only kind of half
work it's actually something that can
build lives you know so uh i don't know it's
it's a question of finding a political
answer i think to some degree rather than focus
entirely on economists um but you know keeping
that in mind you said that the recent
mayoral elections the local elections that
were just uh done um i think uh was it
sunday um or last sunday i don't remember uh
that there was some promise there for the
for the italian center left what uh what's
your take what's what are your takeaways from
from those elections um yeah i mean um
these are of course kind of election that
have a quite different, you know, like
story they are based on stories of
municipalities and so it's a completely kind
different level of politics so, I mean,
some journalists, they saw the confirmation
that the government sympathies from the electorate is completely
in jeopardize is in crisis, confirmation
that was following also the way that the
Nordic reform failed at the referendum in
March, last March. But again, I keep
using and mentioning, because it's the only
instrument we have, like political
polls. I mean, all the political
polls still, you know, like they they give this
two possible political subject right wing
and center left really more or less on the
same level and it's a big surprise how
come i mean this could be a question how
come that after almost five years of a prime
minister whose country has the biggest public
debt whose economy is not doing well whose
the fuel is rising losing the the the the
referendum on justice and and so on and
so forth is still polling like at 29 30
percent which still you know like many italians
like so yeah i mean this is quite a point
because usually uh you know like uh the
honeymoon so-called honeymoon of italian
prime ministers and related parties with
italians doesn't last long so that really could
be an interesting question how it's
possible that this this government and particularly
in the person of georgia meloni and
their party is still so let's say you know
like uh appreciated by so many in many times
like roughly one third of of the
italians so i would not be surprised if the
center left will win the the election
next year i will find quite normal i mean
also because it's it's this government is
completely exhausted politically exhausted
after five years and you know like also
the the the economic international context
uh with trump you know jeopardizing so much the
efforts of you know like also italian populist
radical right parties and governments with
the war in iran so the economic outlook being
rather gloomy i i see this government is
completely in terms of political energy
completely exhausted so I will not be surprised at
all to see the victory of Schlein or Kant
but my point is how long is this kind of a
subject political subject going to to last in
political terms and with this such a public
debt such a outlook so I mean even the sheer
like political inertia the political
stability also was of a government like the maloney
one that in practical pragmatic terms didn't
do so much in terms of policies did a lot
of cultural world did a lot of narratives
but speaking in terms of concrete policies
didn't achieve a lot so even more than political
stability we may also say political
inertia just being able to stay there i mean
it's already quite an achievement because like
some rating agencies they were like upgrading
the outlook of the italian debt of the
italian economy and but you imagine like a center
-left coalition they start fighting after
one week on who is going to be the the minister
of economy and finance of italy and look at
the financial markets this you know like
not specified entities what kind of explosive
situation there could be for an Italian left
-wing coalition so I really will not be in
the position of Schlein or Conte to govern
also because let's put it frankly the Maloney
government is not leaving uh italy in a
better position okay i don't want to say that
he's leaving the italy in a worse position but
for sure did nothing as i said uh concrete
okay it's not easy but i i mean you are
leaving the country now with the again the
biggest public debt of the eurozone the economic
you know like employment and economic indicators
are very bad are very gloomy so i mean
uh didn't do really like a lot for for for
italians this um this government so whoever
is going to handle the situation uh it's not
gonna be uh not going to be easy at all to
to to put you know uh political subject in
the same coalition and to deal with financial
markets so i mean if you have to deal with
this kind of situation perhaps a second meloni
government will be you know more chances
to have to be successful in this situation than
like a center-left coalition but okay this
is my speculation my just my take on on it
but for sure it's not gonna be easy in case
the center-left will be victorious at the
next election yeah yeah so it seems like the the
the culture war thing is sort of the last
thing that's really working it was the
kind of the first thing that was really working
for this radical right coalition um and and
you know as you're kind of saying this is the
thing that's stuck through the inertia a
little bit more or at least been more noticeable
I think that what we've seen, what I've
seen is like, you know, stuff like opera houses
playing more of the older like Bellini and
that kind of thing. Museums carrying things
that Maloney likes like Tolkien exhibits
and book fairs, including much more radical
sort of fascist even, you know, publishers.
So one of the things that I guess United
States media was highlighting in these
elections was Venice. And they were saying
that this is where the sort of like culture war
politics of Maloney's coalition are really
kind of sparking. Is that kind of
something that you observed or do you
see that as not quite accurate? Yeah, in
this case, I would, you know, a little bit
separate because, as you said, for sure,
Maloney government, they tried from the
very last day in charge to form a
government to build part of their, you
know, like successes. Like they're even,
you know, like trying to be, to
look as successful in like advancing
cultural wars. Why? Because they
are highly effective and usually they
don't cost that much. So, as you say, like,
for instance, in Italian books,
like in the future, perhaps we may have to
skip, you know, like studying philosophers
like Karl Marx or like devoting
to them, you know, less attention. as
you said a lot of Juno tried to be hegemon
on cultural like managing culture
like on TV so of course they
did quite a lot we can also I mean if
we open this discussion to what we were
mentioning before like for instance Van
Naci, most of the Van Naci political agenda
right now is building on remigrazione like
remigrate sending immigrants who
are in italy right now back to
their countries which we know is
completely like pointless it's
completely like uh not even a narrative
completely like uh broken or propaganda but
this is the political you know like uh
offer that this guy is is uh is
putting on on the table on on the on venice
and the new mayor of venice venturini i
guess it's more like somebody nonetheless as
the young age because he's just 38 years
old he's been since he was very young part
of the political establishment on the of
the right on the center right in in venice so
perhaps i would say can partially can be
framed like a young generation of the right
wing you know like defeating a large
coalition of the center -left who goes from
Movimento Cinque Stelle and, you know, Alleanza
Verde e Sinistra, and then so a lot of
political subjects. And this guy is
offering like a new frame for
like an old SIP. I mean, it's really
a child of the former administration of the
city of Venice so in this case it's just
confirmed that in Veneto in the northeast of
Italy a big part of the electorate is very
sympathetic to right-wing idea they are also
sympathetic to the idea to be more or less
independent from the central government and in
the past of course this idea they were
channeled by a political entrepreneur like Umberto
Bossi who recently died only partially by Matteo Salvini
who is much more camaleonic on this
so there is like a governor like Luca Zaya
who has been always keeping the favor
of the citizens of Veneto so in
this case the newly elected mayor of
Venice goes into this direction but I would
say the north of eastern italy is quite
not like rich region compared to the to the
others say they have a little bit more room
of like uh maneuver to uh to try to to
to have a locally implement some some
policies and it makes a little bit you know
a story per se in relation to to um to
italy but for sure they provide for the right
-wing coalition, right -wing bloc, an important
pool of votes. So having on
your side Veneto, either voting for
Lega or for Brothers of Italy or
partially we will see maybe for moving
to Van Nacchi, there is a story in
Veneto of a lot of sympathizers for
the extreme right movements, or the
extreme right that had never been into the
Italian parliament. So they may think now
with Van Nacci like abandoning Salvini or
like even in part Meloni and moving to Van Nacci
that could be like an idea to keep these
extreme movements and voters finally into
the Italian parliament. yeah so i mean you
mentioned that uh the nazis party national
future shares the acronym with uh forza nuova
right which is this which is a real kind
of like tradition of uh the extreme right in
italy although they were uh more centered i
think in in rome well but yeah whatever and
And there's a big extreme population in the
Northeast, to be sure. So let's talk
about a little bit about the
heat wave, right? So there's big heat
wave in Europe, all over Europe,
hit really hard in France, which I
think reverberated because uh the
italian tennis player jannick sinner uh
ended up losing uh dramatically and a lot
of people are saying that it's about the
heat that's why but in italy as well you know
very uh warm temperatures for this time of year
um what are some of the implications of
the heat wave uh for italian politics um well
uh for sure it's like having also to deal
with this extreme you know like weather uh
condition is is not you know easy for a local
administration but also the level of uh central
uh politics um for sure i would say that
the italian government has not uh ever be
really sympathetic to like any kind of like
uh policies that can be framed like you know
like uh green policies i mean on the other
hand that and especially like uh salvini is one
you know of the leaders in this kind of like
strategy in a world of big powerhouses like
the US, China, Russia, that they are really
indifferent to like most of the green
politics, with the exception of China,
I would like to say, honestly. I mean, why Europe, the
European Union should be like following, you
know, the deprive itself of, you know,
the possibility to use like instruments that
are, you know, like less friendly to the
environment. I mean, in Italy, honestly, we
have a big problem with energy. There's a debate
like how to manage this. So shall we go
back to nuclear, like nuclear energy in
italy we tried to have for a while really
briefly uh in the 80s but after chernobyl in uh
in ukraine we completely with a referendum
dismiss this possibility so now there is a
the the right wing is advocating for a return
to to you know this kind of solution so
yeah In general, I would say related to the
to the to the heat, like the government
find itself, you know, like a very tricky and
complicated situation. But I mean, it's done
nothing really in the past to, you
know, to try to have a vision about, you
know, like possible agenda that try to
mitigate, you know, this kind of extreme
events. if not acting, and this is very
Italian, Italian modus operandi, Italian
way, acting in the moment of the crisis
or the emergency. So, yeah, I would
say I don't see, you know, like having
different kind of impacts on Italian politics
at the moment, yeah. yeah it's it's uh
sort of always in the background because uh
was it last year with the massive heat wave
i think in in like june maybe um and uh and
this year already uh just seems like more
and more we're seeing the impacts of climate
change and uh it's difficult for the
political scene in Italy to adjust, even with
the current sort of fuel shocks, right? You
would think the present gas prices and everything
would lead people to increase sort of
green energy plants. But that's not really
on the forefront of the political
discussion in Italy. Yeah, exactly. that
doesn't seem doesn't seem to be in their agenda
and also the kind of solution i was
mentioning they look like more you know like uh
okay they're talking about a new kind of
you know new generation uh nuclear like uh
plants but still i mean in italy there's already
like you You know, we are not able to find
a site within fewer sites in the Italian
region because nobody, no municipality, no
territories wants, you know, like a place
where you can put, you know, like the way
that nuclear waste, you know, like, so, I
mean, can you imagine if the government
may, you know, like, well, now we're going
to have back our nuclear, like, plan,
which i mean i'm not an expert on on this so
i don't but i don't want to you know go
further but for sure would be politically
speaking very divisive so um could be also
a another way for for the the right
wing you know like to to jeopardize part
of the the electorate or like put part of
the electorate against you know like uh uh
in light of the future like in this moment
like to talk about uh you know green green
agenda environment like on the other
hand if the solution like it's like
nuclear uh facilities so like uh nuclear
plants yeah in both case i
i don't you know could be very
successful this kind you know like
solution in lights of the election
next year and for sure I would
say that the Italian government
it's one of the government in Europe
that has been more skeptical of
possible like green politics it's more like let's
go back you know to to industrial
politics where we care only a little bit
you know like to a certain extent about you
know the consequences of our like decision
and just you know like try to be
competitive vis-a -vis countries like
the US or China yeah so can you talk
about that a little more um there's a
in the news a little bit a little while
ago there was this kind of conflict
between maloney and confindustria
which is like the uh consortium of industrial
corporations in italy um so is that like the
result of of recent kind of gas uh shocks
and inflation or is there a deeper issue
over the direction of the italian economy and
uh fratelli d'italia's sort of economic and
industrial policies um yeah yeah i i would
say that the second you you mentioned i i i
will not buy i mean the things that suddenly
Confindustria woke up and found that the
Maloney government did almost nothing to improve
the Italian economic situation. I mean, when
there is less than one year
left to implement reforms, also Confindustria,
I mean, has to take a side on
whose betting. So for several years, they
were really betting and siding with the
government just to find out that one year from
the next election, the government, as
I said several times during this episode,
did nothing, almost nothing for the Italian
economy. many brilliant Italians every year
they are forced to leave Italy they
graduate in Italian university and then they
are forced to leave for European Union other
member states or like even outside
European Union so I mean I think Confiduncia has
strategically understood that it's not
convenient for them to be associated or not
to be critical of what this government has
done. Also, because if you look backwards
right now, the records in terms of policies
of the government, actually, it's
kind of poor. As I said, it's not
completely in the hands of the government,
the fact that we had, of course, the war in
Iran and the consequences on the fuel prices.
I read again, you know, I'm quoting
the Fondo Monetaria, International Monetary
Fund, they said that the way Italian
authorities, the Italian government is dealing
with that is like cutting the price of
the fuels, you know, the gasoline station. It's
not, you know, the way you should do
that. or the fact that the italian government
is not able you know to have like a
patrimonial like you know to have a redistribution
of like wealth from extremely wealth
italian citizen to you know middle class or
you know like poor you know where parts of
the population actually this government
what it did you know among the few things he
did like sort of like a flat tax for
extremely wealth people. So a lot of extremely
wealthy people, they moved their residencies
to Italy, most of them to the city where
I actually work in Milano. So it was very
competitive in attracting extremely wealthy,
but we all know that trickle-down economics
doesn't work. The fact that we have a
lot of billionaires now establishing themselves
in Italy, in Milan, is not helping at the
end of the day the italian economy and so
you you may say okay better having them
than not i leave this you know to the the
the economies but for sure like the fact
that you know economic outlook is not good
italy is not growing if you take a country
like spain spain in comparison to italy comes
from a situation that is much you know worse
than italy but still now it's been several
years it's performing much better than
italy so what does it mean it doesn't mean
that you know like good policies they can
have an impact of unemployment of your
citizen having to be forced to go to go abroad
to find a job on your public debt you know
skyrocketing you know overtaking risk as
the first public debt compared to GDP in the Eurozone so I mean all this kind of stuff when you have the
political authority and legitimacy as
this government had because it had a strong
political mandate it should have been
more brave and risk a little bit more to
have good policies also to have in terms
of economics and finance to have an
impact i mean as i said already before
this this government uh i don't want to be
unfair but just try to be objective is
leaving italy not in a better situation
that it found it well probably a worse situation
better not for sure so i mean the
you have the full responsibility of of
you know the fact that your politics
they were you know completely uh failure
you did nothing for the for for your
fellow citizens yeah so um in terms of the
relationship between uh i i guess the
united states and italy and italy the rest of
the world uh one thing that seems uh particularly
important right now is um uh especially
when you look at the catholic church
and uh and um various kind of uh conflicts
against uh the current pope from the far right
uh all over the world but definitely in
the united states as well um is uh what's
happening in the middle east right um and i'm
thinking the war in iran we've talked already
about the economic implications but i'm
also thinking Now, of the war against
Hezbollah that Israel is carrying
out in Lebanon and various kind of
reactions to it. I think it has inflamed
relations between the Catholic
Church and Israel. And that, you know,
itself has kind of inflamed relations
between the Catholic Church and United States
conservatives. And at the same time,
these sorts of tensions have also erupted
into kind of open harshness, I guess,
between Maloney and Trump, but particularly on
the side of Trump. so um what can you
can you kind of unpack some of the implications
right now of of the current iran
war but also you know the situation
in lebanon for uh italian politics yeah
i i would say i'll go set to the point the
the worry in iran martha point of you
know like uh really like uh no return
of the relationship between Meloni, I
mean, her leadership, the Italian government
and Donald Trump. I'm not talking
now of the other radical right
parties in Europe. We can elaborate
on that. I'm talking about the
leadership of Meloni and the leadership
of Donald Trump because till
the war in Iran, their special
relationship was considered by both
of them and not only by the observer,
I mean, from both the subjects
to be as an asset. So they were happy
to exhibit, you know, the special
relationship, both Trump and on their
side, Meloni. They were like, the special
relationship we have with the USA,
you know, is testified the fact that you know
we are the first and the only to be invited
in in some you know like meetings and
we have a tweet in a you know special you
know um special way differently from the
others uh since the the very uh very war in
uh in in iran the things that they've uh
changed uh because of the the the the also
the role of of israel of israel is handling
this uh This conflict, this war, the
thing that you were mentioning, the role
of the Catholic Church and this new pontifex
in relation to this. So it's no more
considered as an asset right now, taking the
perspective of Giorgia Meloni. It's more
something that she has to justify in front
of political allies, to the political
opposition and to the broad Italian electorate
and to the media. So she's trying to, I
mean, Meloni is trying to have an extremely
low profile on the relationship with Trump.
And also on the other hand, I mean, Trump
has done really little to avoid, you know,
to have a situation with Meloni escalating,
like several interviews he released, I
remember especially one to Corriere della Sera,
where like, we are not happy, the US is
not happy at all with the Meloni government,
with Italy, we were expecting Italy to
support us in, with the situation, the Strait
of Hormuz with Iran. And of course, you
know, like for what is worth, Meloni and
Tourage tried as possible as much to avoid,
to skip, you know, to have to confront
with this kind of, you know, like to
give, you know, like an answer to Trump. Because
in any case, that would be, you know,
like very, very complicated. So perhaps
the best way was, as Meloni did, you know,
try not to either confirm or like, you
know, to go against this. So the real
point that, you know, for quite a while,
really, this was an asset for Meloni
to, you know, a point of pride to
exhibit the relationship with the Trump
administration. with the vans with the
rubio especially the beginning of this
second mandate of trump with with elon musk
right now no and this is partially also
you can see this for for a little bit
different reasons so to to other like subjects
political subjects of the the populist radical
right or far-right family in uh in europe
i mean trump has been really become
like you know something unbearable and this
tells a lot also i know the the way as the
the u.s president's been jeopardizing
also ties with uh and connection with the uh
political subject that should be not only
on the paper but also you know like um on the
matter you know like really sympathetic
in terms of ideology, the way, you know,
like they could also be, you know, useful
to Trump because most of these, you
know, like subjects, they are not for a
stronger European Union, like more
federation, more political unity. They
are more like for, I know, you confederate
kind of style, Europe, Europe of
the nation, which is completely, you
know, the project of the current Trump
administration. So, I mean, if you
were able to jeopardize even this part is
that somehow they are weakening Europe from
inside, so they are playing your game, if
this is the way I see it. I mean, you're
completely making the point on your
political adversary, so really bad moves by the
current US administration, which had a big
capital to play with these political
subjects, starting from Brothers of Italy and
Meloni herself. And now they are completely
embarrassed, you know, like to touch,
you know, this topic, which was completely
different when Trump won the election
for the second time. For sure, I
think now Georgia Meloni will be much,
much more at ease with the US president,
with a Democrat. I mean, if we take
also Joe Biden, after all, the
Italian relationship, when Meloni was there
and Joe Biden was there, there were
not big problems. I mean, there was a
lot of continuity and the Ukrainian dossier
and, you know, so I mean, there were big
expectations from Salvini, from Tajani, from
like, especially from Meloni to Trump, these
people. coming with him, coming along,
like Musk, first of all, and Rubio, J.D.
Vance. I mean, many Italian intellectuals
in the world of academia, they were
really looking at the entourage of Trump,
his intelligentsia, Peter Thiel, like with
a lot of curiosity. Right now, first of all, okay,
we cannot reduce everything, everything
of this galaxy, the U.S. far-right
supremacist to Trump. There will be
something going beyond Trump and in the U
.S. we will see soon. We will see the role
of people like G .D. Vance, of Peter
Thiel within this. But, I mean, it's
also a little bit now transmitting,
you know, like this gloomy
situation over Trump. I mean, the way Joe
Biden dies, it's also transmitting a
little bit to the the entourage and the
whole movement so uh it's not doing a big
favor to to the the the far right in
europe i would say yeah definitely i i saw uh
a report i didn't look too much into it but
apparently the um alternative for germany
uh one of their leaders said something about
uh distancing himself from trump and got
a big cheer and and immediately like their
support increased so um i think that's something
that and and uh certainly i think farage
found that when he kind of went against musk
um he also actually received something
of a boost um in his support so you know
increasingly what seemed like uh trump leading a
kind of um far-right international uh has
has i don't know i guess it's a thing of the
past uh although it was never really you know
it was never it was always just the imagined
sort of uh unity for people like steve
bannon and stuff like that it was never never
a really serious thing yeah i completely uh
if i can add one point i completely agree
uh with you on this the fact we were talking
through throughout the episode of the fact
that how disappointing was the experience of
this Meloni government a fully fledged far
-right or populist radical right government
because two of its parties are belonging
to those families and recently with the Orban
being democratically defeated Hungary which will be
something unexpected other than that
Trump himself as we just said
you mentioned is doing very very
poorly I saw several polls where he's
the American citizen is in a historical
love they are very disappointed to Trump
and the midterm election the US are approaching
I would And then it seems like a very,
very bad scenario hanging on these
politicians and their parties, their movements.
But on the other hand, I would be very
wary. I would put a lot of attention on
this because, again, these things that we
said are true. But if you take Italy, if you
take right now France, if you take Germany,
if you take the UK, in all those countries,
big countries, according to all the
polls, the first party in terms of sympathies
from the electorate or electoral
intention, They are all like Farage, Rassemblement
National, later in the sense of
Bardella or Le Pen, and as you said, the
AfD, Alternative for Deutschland in Germany,
is neck to neck with the CDU, which is
completely unbelievable in a country like
Germany, the Cordon Sanitaire, etc. etc and
then in Italy I mean nonetheless all that
we have been spinning in the whole episode
today I mean the first party in the
polls is still brothers of Italy so I don't
know how to explain this so the electorate
supporting them which is a big part
of you know within our democracy they're
really blind to some to the events they're blind to
the price of fuel rising, they're blind
to economic outlook they're so ideological
they are like another solution they perhaps
they're still supporting some kind of political
actors, especially because they are not
happy with democracy so there could be like
uh one way for them to express the fact that
they are not happy with living in a democracy
is living with you know like kind of parties
or leader that let's be honest not only
in a performative way they are rather illiberal
they are rather you know authoritarian
they don't they are not happy with the constraint
coming from politics from the opposition
from the media from you know the judiciary
from the the financial markets so i mean i
think there is a demand in our democracy there
is a strong demand for illiberalism for
liberal politics of course there are a lot of
different you know kind of liberalism but
there is like a demand for this kind of politics
and and and policies and somehow if we want
to find a common you know element through
all of them there these people they from so
the demand side of this party they are not
happy with democracy i know it may sound very
very bitter but they are not happy with the
with democracy so it still could explain a
little bit why nonetheless all that we have been
discussing uh today still you know these
parties they're polling you know as first
very extremely strong and i would say one
thing is if you have the far right in power in
italy and one thing is if you have the far right
in power in countries like france and
germany because in this sense the political
equilibrium within the european union will
completely different so yeah yeah I saw that
there's been some leak I think in France for
Bardella uh that uh the Rassemblement National
was contemplating uh some austerity measures
you know to with regards to like retirement
and things like that and and so I think
that's another thing that you know is sort of
changing in a way the dynamics of of populism
and sort of uh uh social chauvinism are
are kind of transforming as well um but uh yeah
pretty gloomy report um so uh do you have
any new projects from polydemos that
are that you're coming out with soon? We
have a book in English which will be
edited by Professor Damiano Palano, who
is the director of the Center and is exactly
dealing with the state of the
Italian democracy at four years since
the Maloney victory. So where we are and
it's kind of funny because we had the
same kind of framework several years ago, so
the expectation for this brand new political
creator was named as the most right-wing
political government of Italian history, which
is quite true, even though I would say
the yellow-green, the first contact cabinet
supported by Lega and when Tocco Stelle was
much more populist a right-wing populist
but this is just my personal view
so I mean in the distance of
something like four or five years
look you know what is you know like the the achievements of
the failure of this government which have
been the narrative of this government
which as I said in terms of policies
has not done a lot doesn't leave Italy
any better than the way it's found but still
if you put it into a broader context
European and worldwide it can be like a president
like a historical and political president
for other governments that would be in
the future that they may look how the
situation was ended when the radical right was
governing in Italy. So a little bit like,
you know, but perhaps more intensive than,
you know, like Orban being a handbook for
many politicians. Italy, I know it's a
little bit, sometimes it's too much, but
it's really been like a laboratory for some,
you know, politicians in Europe and not
only in Europe. So, yeah, basically this
book on the state of the Italian democracy
will be a little bit the status quo of what
has been happening in the last four years
and what will pass to the future about
this experience of government in Italy. As
I said, there are some dark sides and also
some bright sides. I mean, from the point
of view, like right -wing, of course, you
know, like experiments. But again, I insist
on this point. One thing is to
have this kind of laboratory in
Italy. Other thing is to have far
-right politicians governing in a country
like France or in a country like
Germany. money this can be a completely
different kind of of situation you know
very true very true all right well uh i'll
look out for that uh upcoming work and uh
thank you so much dr bruno for joining
the podcast uh dr bruno again is a research
fellow and adjunct professor at
Università Cattolica del Sacro Cuore in
Milano. He collaborates with Polidemos
there and he's a fellow at the Far
Right Analysis Network. So his latest book,
The Rise of the Brothers of Italy,
Organization, Leadership and Ideology, can
be purchased at your favorite
online book vendor, hopefully uh co-authored
with um murini so thank you so much
for joining the pod thank you very
much alexander it's always a
pleasure to to discuss about
italian politics with you all right and
thank you for listening this has been right
rising the official podcast of the Far
Right Analysis Network. Hope you come
back next time.