Augusta DellÕOmo: Welcome to Right Rising, a podcast from the Center for Analysis of the Radical Right. I'm your host Augusta DellÕOmo. Today I'm joined by Dr. Sara Kamali, a holistic justice activist and public scholar of systemic inequities, white nationalism, and militant Islam. And she's here with us today to talk about white nationalism and her new book, Homegrown Hate. Sara, thanks for being here. 
Sara Kamali: I'm really delighted to be with you today Augusta. 
AD: So, Sara, I think that we should just start off with the big question about what is white nationalism - itÕs something that particularly for those of us who are based in the United States, we're hearing this term thrown around a lot, but could you just start us off with what is white nationalism and who is included in who we're classifying under this term?
SK: White nationalism is an ideology that calls for a white ethnostate. So whether that is completely eliminating people of color, whoever is deemed to be a person of color because h, whiteness is a fluid identity as, as history has taught us over time. Um, and it's very much supported by white supremacy. So the belief that there is an inherent superiority or divine, divine blessing, or genetic supremacy to being white. And, um, in terms of who makes up white nationalists, um, the way that I categorize it in the book, the, the way that I categorize the members in the book is that we have anti-government, uh, we have just people who are focused on the racism aspect and then the, what I call racist religions, so, um, theologies is like, uh, Christian identity or creativity. Um, and, um, also conspiracy theories and then of course there's an amalgamation thereof, so it's not just, uh, disparate categories, uh, people are, there's a lot of fluidity within, within white nationalism as we've seen in, um, at the January 6th attack.
AD: And I think we'll be talking a lot about the January six attack, but I do want to stick briefly with this idea of white nationalism and specifically what you mentioned about the ethnostate. I've seen a lot of conflation between maybe just sort of broader white supremacist ideas and this idea of white nationalism. So could you just dive a little bit deeper into when we're talking about white nationalists and they're talking about this ethnostate, what does that actually mean to them? And how does that overlap with perhaps how frequently and how easily we refer to someone as a white nationalist, but do they actually believe in an ethno-state?
AK: So the very idea that, uh, the whiteness is inherently superior, whether that's, whether that's justified through religious understanding, even white evangelicalism or white nationalist evangelicalism as I call it. Um, or whether that's, um, whether that's simply supported by, um, a specific understanding of pseudoscience of eugenics, for example, white supremacy feeds into white nationalism. So if one is a white supremacist, the way that I argue is that that, that, uh, the trajectory of thought and belief will lend itself to supporting a white ethnostate. As far as the white ethnostate in the, in the role of people of color, specifically within the white ethnostate. It's not necessarily that people of color will have to be, there are different strands of thought depending on the category or the threat of white nationalism. So either people of color are completely eliminated and that's well through essentially a mass murder or is through complete separation. And so there's, there's, um, a call for a sub-caste essentially. So there are different ways of understanding what a white ethno-state is finally supposed to look like, but essentially there, there can, if there's going to be white supremacy, there, there is definitely a white ethnostate because that's the ultimate conclusion of that, of that belief. 
AD: Thanks for breaking that down for us Sara. And you've mentioned it a little bit about the targets of white nationalists and that specifically in this country, it's directed towards people of color. Is that, is it exclusively directed towards people of color or what kinds of targets are white nationalists, really focusing on in our current moment?
SK: In terms of understanding, and the reason I am backing this up just a little bit is because it's really important to understand why nationalism - people in the media specifically - don't necessarily use the term the same. And that's, I think what leads a lot to the confusion. So also that will lead to confusion in terms of whom exactly the targets are of white nationalism. So. We talk, you know, speak about white supremacy, um, and that is going to be targeting people of color. But the other targets of many white nationalists are people of the queer community are Jewish people are, Muslims are, um, um, people with disabilities are people of different national origins. Um, so anybody who is essentially deemed to be nonwhite or even as some white nationalist, regardless subhuman. And, um, that's the reason why the, the complexity of white nationalist ideology in terms of the categories I, I stated earlier, and then also paralleling that complexity is the, the many targets of white nationalism and how, uh, the threat pose seemingly posed by these many targets actually supports the need for a white ethnostate from the worldview and white nationalists is what makes it so complex. Uh, and that's, I think something that's often left out of the conversation, um, just because of the way that the new cycle is today.
AD: I think this emphasis on the news cycle and the way that we talk about these organizations is incredibly important, especially in the context of January 6th. You know, I remember watching the coverage, as I'm sure you did too, and just seeing a really complicated situation that in many cases is being simplified quite quickly into these are white nationalists that are storming the Capitol. So I wanted you to talk a little bit about the kinds of people that were involved in January 6th - are they representative or not of white nationalism 
SK: And even more to your point, um, much of the media were harnessed on specific names like Oathkeepers or Proud Boys. And then we have of course, people in law enforcement and military, et cetera later, um, and even some members of QAnon. And so it just, um, that really speaks to my point in terms of, um, how collapsed the what is actually a complex constellation of different actors within, within the ideology of white nationalism. Um, how that's played out in the media, uh.
In terms of how representative the groups of January 6th were, and even the people, not necessarily groups, um, what was interesting is. That most of the people in January 6th, of course, not all, but the majority were, um, middle-aged men. And, um, there was a disproportionate number of law enforcement and military members, whether, whether past or present who were, um, there that day taking part in the insurrection in the January, on January 6th and that, uh, what I call ÒGhost SkinsÓ um, are or people who are involved with military inland, uh, law enforcement who are white nationalists. Um, and that is a very real concern and hasn't been actually for decades. And that, that threat, um, is actually just now being, uh, addressed by the current Secretary of Defense and, and, um, the Biden administration in general. 
AD: And I think we're going to get back to this idea of what can be done to counter this threat, how should we approach this threat? But I wanted to briefly shift gears to Homegrown Hate your new book, which I'm incredibly excited to, to have in my hands and read. Um, but can you talk a little bit about who is this book for? What are the main issues that you're going to be talking about? What really spurred you to write this book?
SK: So this is Homegrown Hate is the culmination of ten plus years of research and writing. And, um, really that length of time was due to how complicated white nationalism is and how much landscape has changed as well as, um, how we've come to understand militant Islamism, et cetera. So the book covers a wide variety of issues, really it covers the who the actors are, who the organizations are, what are the religious beliefs, if there are any, what are the sacred values, um, what are the theological underpinnings, how is violence either, um, justified through religion or this understanding of certain sacred concepts, how social media plays a role, um, and even manifestos for example, and also also what can be done. So Homegrown Hate is for anybody who wants to understand in a comprehensive way, the national security threats that are currently facing the United States as well as many countries around the world. So not just for academics, not just for policy, but really I wanted to have a comprehensive, um, up-to-date resource for anybody who is interested in what's going on in the world. 
AD: This sounds fantastic. And I want to hone in on a couple of key themes that you've mentioned, and I think that would be really valuable for our listeners. The first is you mentioned the end, the sort of global currents of white nationalism and you argue in the book that white nationalism is transnational and at first, hearing that can seem kind of like a misnomer, right? Nationalism is based on these ideas of national identity. You're wanting to create an ethnostate within your state. So what do you mean by that? And what does it mean that white nationalism is global? 
SK: White nationalism and why I use the term. Why, why I call it transnational and it's very much also is what's so interesting is, um, after spending so long researching and speaking to people and I'm writing about this, um, there were a lot of parts of the world who very much believe in the origins of the nationhood that is meant to be white. Whether, again, that's through three theological understanding or whether that's through, um, uh, an understanding of the biology, um, that deems white people to have a certain superiority or a mixed, mixed mixture of both and this type of belief um, is found in many parts of the world, particularly the United States and, um, and, uh, some parts of Canada actually in the Northern Western Europe and Australasia. Um, and if we look at specifically the dynamics of transnational white nationalism, we can see that now too where many of the groups are communicating and neither planning and there's a cross-pollination, but also a communication of ideas and of, um, membership across nations, essentially, where, whereas perhaps that wouldn't necessarily happen, um, you know, a few decades ago, but everything has been very much accelerated by, by social media.
AD: And would you say that these groups that are existing in this sort of transnational space that are really sharing ideas that are communicating with one another, are there, are they sharing a particular language about white supremacy that is consistent across these different cultural contexts? As someone who studies US-South African relations, you know, one of the really interesting aspects of white supremacy in both the US and South Africa is there are shared tenants, but it is quite locally specific. So how do you see this relationship between these local organizations that are still reaching out to form these transnational connections?
SK: What do you mean in the South African context? I'm curious in terms of locality. 
AD: Yeah. So I study South Africa in the 1980s, which some of the podcast listeners have been subjected to hearing my insights on this, and one of the really interesting shifts that occurs in the South African far-right in the 1980s and 1990s is moving away from preserving the apartheid state as a national system, too talking about this idea of an ethnostate, which is, you know, what you're mentioning, this comes into conflict with some of the ideas that are coming out of the US and European far-right that they're in communication with - so are local - I guess my question is, is are local ideas about white supremacy fundamentally different in these different contexts, or as you're saying, are they having this shared understanding of white supremacy is the guiding way to organize the institutions and the system that they're a part of?
SK: That's a really interesting point that you bring up. Certainly there are different lenses through which white nationalism can be supportive. There are many, many, many, many groups. Um, and I go into a great detail to break that down along the four categories, but even more in depth in chapter one. And the reason for that is to have a common language, but also understand how there are multi, how, why nationalism is so multifaceted. So there's for instance, there was a concept of neo-secessionism, which is very much supportive of white supremacy by through post-Civil War uh, rights, for example. Um, and then there is, um, the religion of Christian identity, which, um, states that white people are the perfect creation, whereas people of color are not. Um, and all of that language is used essentially, and there's a commonality of white supremacy that, essentially calls for white ethnostate. Um, but in terms of specific common language, I guess I'm breaking down the book here, but, um, for instance, the last chapter, I, I go through the common themes of manifestos and how over last century and a half essentially, uh, transnationally again from, uh, Europe, uh, from Europe to Australasia, to North America, how there are certain concepts that have been transported through different manifestos that have, that are essentially linked, um, uh, through time and, um, ideology. 
Um, but one, one specific instance, um, that is quite common that has been leveraged, um, since it was first written as the Fourteen Words. And I'm not sure how familiar you are, listeners are to the Fourteen Words, but, um, it was what has become known as the battle cry of white nationalist penned in 1988 by, uh, white nationalist David Lane who was involved in the Order. And then that's a very complicated type of, um, uh, lineage, I would say because the Order was a real group based on a fictional group written by, uh, Andrew Macdonald was the penname of the person who wrote The Turner Diaries, who was also found in Timothy McVeigh. So when I say it's complex, this is what I mean, it's very complex, but the Fourteen Words, um, Òis we must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children.Ó So. white nationalism and tie it back, um, so I think the opening question is that it's very much supported by the idea of white supremacy and that there's something inherently superior with whiteness itself, but then it's also reified by the need for violent self-defense in the face of what is seen as a threat by people of color. And so there's an interesting dynamic that feeds into itself. So the self, the narrative of superiority, and then the narrative of self-victimhood, or, or a narrative of victimhood, uh, by quote unquote, Òthe other,Ó they feed into each other, somewhat like a neuro-gross, essentially.
AD: That's fantastic, Sara, thanks for that overview. I do want to go back to one point that you've mentioned a few times and something that we haven't explicitly addressed on Right Rising, but I think it's absolutely critical to understanding not only white supremacist thought in the US but white nationalism, but the role of Christianity. YouÕve mentioned Christian identitarians a few times, could you for our listeners talk us through a little bit of that relationship? 
SK: Okay. So there are many, what I call racist religions and the reason they're racist is because again, there's this belief that there is a divine, um, blessing endowed upon white people only and whether that means people of color or a mistake or less than, or the spawn of Satan, for example, Apple and Eve, there's a lot of different, um, uh, religious views on these um, on, on justifying white supremacy. So when I'm speaking about Christian identity, it's a religion that really peaked in the United States in the 1980s, um, and has a following today, but was really born out of the eugenics movement actually in the late 1800s in Europe, and then was transferred over to the United States, um, and there was a lot of xenophobia, which of course it's American history. So, um, but in the 1920s, a Christian identity really took off, um, here in the United States. Um, and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion for example, was, um, one of the documents that's the false documents, the antisemitic document, um, that has recently been in the news the past few years as well for appearing in different, um, being in the, uh, on the person of somebody who was, an officer at the Capitol. Um, I think, uh, recently, or, you know, a few months ago, um, but, uh, Christian identity is what Christian identity members of course would say that this is the real version of Christianity and it, and it's, uh, one of the teachings of Christian identity is polygyny. 
Polygyny is the belief that, uh, why people are, um, the descendants of Adam and Eve and that Jewish people are the the descendants of Satan and Eve and that really reinforces a lot of misogyny as well as antisemitism. And if we can imagine that eugenics was born from the idea that, you know, there's a pseudo-science of, um, genetic appearance that manifest itself into physical traits that deem people better than others, um, and then Christian identity also teaches that, uh, black people specifically are called m*d. Um, in terms of the, um, in terms of the other religions that are related to Christianity though, is that we do have a, uh, within white nationalism, there also exists, uh, white nationalist evangelicalism. And what I mean by white nationalists evangelicalism is, um, again, the, the understanding of evangelicalism that lends itself to supporting a white ethnostate specifically, because if one looks at evangelicalism within the United States, they're actually people of color, um, who are, um, evangelicals, but they don't necessarily feel part and part of the, um, white evangelical community and the same actually, um, can be said for, um, Latter Day Saints or Mormonism. And so there are different communities, of religious communities who actually have people of color who adhere to these religions and I'm speaking about evangelicalism and Latter Day Saints or Mormonism specifically who then also have different components, um, such as white nationalist evangelicals, and then, um, what I term militant Mormons, um, who use um, arguably the same teachings to support and theologically justified the call for a white ethnostate. 
AD: Thank you for laying all of that out. And I think for many of our listeners, it's really difficult to sift through all of these. Like you said, these complicated groups that have these shared, but interlocking ideologies and, uh, tenants and ritual and so it can be really difficult to navigate all of this. So I'm very excited, not only about the pod that we're doing today, but just laying this out for this. 
SK: Thank you. And there's also Odinism, sorry. So I'm just letting you know it is very complicated, hence the ten years and hence the need for a comprehensive resource. So. You know, and it really, it really, um, uh, it took a while because of, because of the complexities. So that's why I just want your listeners to know that, um, when you read one bookÉ
AD: Pick Homegrown Hate! With there a time that we have left, could you talk a little bit about what can be done to counter this threat? I think a lot of us are really, you know, we're really struggling to make sense of something that is not only threatening in a militant terrorist way, but also something that is really intrinsic to American culture, these ideas about white supremacy, this misogyny, it's not coming from nowhere. It's not coming out of the ether, so to speak. So how do you think, and as someone who you know is a holistic justice activist, how do we think about approaching this kind of threat? 
SK: Well, first. White supremacy is not necessarily intrinsic to American culture because American culture is made up of many different strands of people who have immigrated and also have been the targets of genocide, for example, of course, in many indigenous nations who are here before that colonialists came here. But, um, in terms of when you said that people are struggling, I guess, what, what do you mean by that? Do you mean in terms of reconciling history? 
AD: Well, I think in terms of, of reconciling, how do we combat this threat? You know, I think January 6th was a big eye-opener for many people that the kind of warning signs that scholars like you and other scholars have been really raising about this, this threat of white nationalism to American society, the threat of domestic terror, but they're really thinking about, you know, how do we approach this, we're hearing reports about sympathies to white nationalism within the U S military, within policing. How do we start to approach something that for many people, January 6th was a big eye-opening event, but they're not sure how to ground themselves in this perceivingly the new threat to, to the United States.
SK: And that's a great way to actually I would, I would use your words to reframe the issue too, is that it's not actually a new threat. And so I would like for anybody who would seek to understand how to counter the threat and also to diminish the threat, I would, I would urge them to understand American uh, history or whatever, whichever nation they happen to be a part of in terms of how white supremacy has been so supported by a systemic by institutions, um, throughout their history, which in most cases, in many parts of the world, um, even if it's not a white majority, then there have been certain dynamics of either xenophobia that have been used, uh, politicized in order to, um, uh, wield power, gain power by oppressing, um, whoever whomever is deemed the other um, so that's one aspect. 
The other aspect is it really depends on who the audience is, so of course people in government are going to have different resources at hand then perhaps, um, maybe somebody who is an essential worker, for example, and that's doesn't mean it's less or more just means that it's going to be different, but, um, the central, the central point then that's something that I, that I detailed in this concept I called holistic justice is, is based on two, two elements. One is empathy and the other one is anti-oppression. And so I speak or write a lot about empathy in terms of not only seeking to understand why white nationalist, militant Islamists, um, believe what they do and how they justify their either planning or perpetration of violence, but also in terms of empathy, in how we understand each other as, as citizens, as people who essentially belong to the human race. So it's really important to understand one's own history and understand the dynamics of how race has become a sociopolitical construct that while it may be a fallacy as a construct, because there's no biological soundness to the concept of race, it has been very much wielded as a, as a weapon to oppress and also to grant privilege. 
So I would start with that history. And that doesn't mean they're necessarily has to be white guilt or, you know, if you're feeling guilty, if you're in that type, if you're in that position, then perhaps leverage that guilt to actually do something and get to know people, get to know the other quote, unquote, Òthe other,Ó I mean, you know, how much time do you spend engaging with people who either come from different places or, um, uh, speak different languages or that, you know, there, there are a myriad ways that we're learning, especially post-tragedy of George, the unnecessary tragedy of George Floyd, of course. Um, you know, how do we, how, how to speak perhaps about, about the different dynamics that have so, so polarized us. 
Um, and then in terms of anti-oppression, um, understand what essentially the government's doing. And I think that it's very difficult nowadays, just because of the deluge of information, for example. And then of course, you know, given the context of the pandemic, it's just, things just seem heavier to trudge through. And then there, um, you know, people are limited with mental energy and time, et cetera. But, um, the only way that we are going to be able to, um, counter the threat, like white nationalism is essentially to recalibrate the way that we think about humanity, war and, uh, what, uh, citizenship actually means and those are of course, big demands and movements that have impacted positively any change have always been grassroots movements. And so I would say that there is a lot of hope given the history of the global communities around the world over time, um, so don't despair and keep going forward. 
AD: Sara, I think that's a fantastic note to end on and thank you so much for being here and can you tell our listeners where they can hear more about you, where they can read your writing, where they can pre-order Homegrown Hate where can we find more from you? 
SK: Yes, I'd be happy to do that. Um, the only social media channel I have is, uh, Twitter. And then I do have my website: sarakamali.com, you, you are welcome to sign up for that newsletter. Send me an a note there. Um, I'll be happy to, you know, I'm just happy to hear from you and, um, oh, and then Homegrown Hate is available at a local bookstores. So please try to show up locally if you can. And of course, there's, there's always Amazon.
AD: Fantastic. Sara I thank you so much for being here. 
SK: Thank you so much, Augusta. I appreciate, I appreciate the thoughtfulness of your questions. Thank you. 
AD: This has been another episode of Right Rising. We'll see you next time. .