#citizenweb3 Episode link: https://www.citizenweb3.com/darkfi Episode name: Digital Dictatorship, DeFi and Social Credit with Amir Taaki Anna: Hey, it's Citizen Cosmos and it's still Anna discover interoperability and Lisbon. And today with Amir Taaki, very famous in Crypto Twitter, I think Amir will tell us about his other part of things that he's doing every day. Amir Taaki: Whereas the rich people, they play like the stock market. That's like gambling for rich people. Citizen Web3 Before we rock it off into our next episode, we would like to share the latest news of this episode's sponsor, Cyber. The Cyber Congress DAO has recently launched its bootloader network for the Super Intelligence Bostrom. The network is stable and the first IBC connection has been established. More news on the activation of Cyber's gift to follow soon. To test Cyber, head straight to the air app on cyp.ai. Anna: Hello, Amir. Welcome to the show. Amir Taaki: Hi, nice to meet you guys. Anna: Tell me a little bit about what are you doing these days? What are your passion and what is your project for the moment? Amir Taaki: There's a lot of narratives inside of Crypto. There is the store of value narrative. There is the smart contract narrative, Web3 narrative. There is a lot of new techniques that have been developed, but there's also kind of lull in the technological progress in bringing a new kind of vision to kind of Crypto. We're trying to go back to the principles at the heart of what started this entire community and reexamine those principles and invigorate them with new concepts and new ideas, in particular, agorist philosophy. And That's realized by Darkfy, which we unveiled at the event as a concept. The regulators are coming after us and they're not just coming for centralized exchanges. They're also coming for DeFi and privacy. And Therefore, the community will split into two. There will be a RegFy, which will be completely regulated, bolted down and very difficult to use. Then there will be a Darkfy, which will be kind of parallel society. It will be very creative and vibrant and dynamic. It will also be underground. Anna: I love the answer and I love how you're talking about what is included in technology because It's not only the one narrative. We put into the technology different things. We can speak about society. We can speak about decentralization. We can actually cover a lot of things that we express by our projects. And Nowadays, more and more companies and foundations, not only DAO, but become a foundation, then ask QIC, ML and all that kind of stuff. And If you remember the first cyberpunk manifest, remember about Bitcoin? It was all not about money, but about your personal data, about what is really important for you as a person. So I can see that you share that value. Am I correct? Amir Taaki: Yes. The cryptonicists and the cypherpunks, that was a movement that originated out of the early hacker movement. And The hackers had a very big impact on technology. At the time, computers were these huge machines that took up a huge amount of space that were largely owned by military and industry. The hackers were an early community who understood that there was great power in computer technology. And They got jobs as cleaners and janitors in the same institutions where the computers were based. They put a lot of energy to try and understand how these machines functioned and eventually managed to build their own machines, which actually is what led to the personal computer revolution and then the wide dispersal of computer technology into the hands of people. So There's always, throughout history, been this kind of struggle between what we call the Democratic society and the power and capital monopolies, or this elite group of people. One very important nexus for that struggle is technology, because a lot of revolutionary movements succeeded was often because they had the better technology or they made good use of technology. So The ability for struggles, for freedom to effectively make use of technology is a very key question. The cryptonicists, what they realized was that this new emerging technology of cryptography would enable new forms of political and economic relations between people to exist. The cryptonic manifesto is about carving out these new spaces of freedom, these parallel societies, the nurture resistance movements. The whole idea of cryptonic was using cryptography, we could create free online zones on the internet where any community or any person could organize or communicate or engage outside of coercion by power. And The thing is, totalitarian power is always emboldened by compliance. Like When you comply with totalitarian power, it actually makes them stronger. Totalitarianism or totalitarian terror only really becomes expressed when all opposition to it has died down. So For example, the purges by Stalin only actually occurred much later after all his opponents had been purged, because then he had nobody to oppose him. So This question of protecting resistance or opposition, which originate from dissident voices in society, is absolutely essential. And In particular, parallel societies, which are programmed with the code of resistance from the start, which allow true democratic society to exist. Anna: I like the narrative that you say that it's not like once being invited and then continue going in the same shape. Yeah I like how you say that it's a continuing process of evolution, what we put and how we can think about all the things that happened, especially now in the world, because I can see the reference to the Covid world actually, because we have kind of privileged people now who get vaccinated and get access to some special accommodations. People who are not get vaccinated and they cannot have access, we can see how the medical things become a politic thing very easily and in a short period of time. So Do you think that initial cyberpunk ideas is dramatically change nowadays or it's followed the same narrative and it's going to be more up-to-date or less up-to-date for the moment? Amir Taaki: In the early days of Bitcoin, the philosophy of agorism was very influential and very strong. That's kind of like a philosophy which for some reason has been kind of pushed to the side over time. The agorism is the philosophy of using counter-economics by creating a kind of democratic economic system which is outside of control of the state as a means to create or as a tactic that can be used to create a free society. So Russell Briggs, who founded the Silk Road, his favourite novel was a book called Alongside Night. In the novel Alongside Night, there's a group of revolutionary agorist cadre overthrow the US government through free market trade. In the novel, there's one scene which there's actually a video on YouTube if you search Alongside Night where they're going through this anarchist shopping mall where there's people selling guns and there's an anarchist bank and all this crazy stuff. The interesting thing is I actually feel like we're kind of living that reality now because whenever I see like Bitcoin logos in the street, it feels exactly like that novel. Like We're in that kind of situation where the states have manipulated people for so long. They've used psychological operations against society. They've shaped or infiltrated political movements. They've created fake opposition. They've done perception management. All these techniques actually create this wide atmosphere of distrust. Nobody really ever right now trusts the system anymore. And in particular, the economic system has the wealth gap is widening and the power and the wealth is concentrating ever, ever more into this smaller group of elites. With crypto, a lot of people they know a lot of the crypto projects. There's like middlemen or Ponzi schemes basically. I kind of feel like the people trust that more than the actual normal economic system. The rules are there, written. It's not rigged against them. Whereas the actual economic system as it works now, it's impossible for normal people to win. It's completely engineered against them. When I grew up, when I was in the UK, I grew up in a small town. It's like the town that voted the most for Brexit. There's a lot of crime. There's a lot of drug dealers, unemployment, people living off government benefits. So there's also a lot of gambling establishments. And you have these arcades where they have the slot machines and you have also the big arm. You put them coin in to grab the toy or you got the penny machine which pushes the penny out. And all those games, you play them, but you can never win at them. You always end up losing. So that's what poor people play. Whereas the rich people, they play like the stock market and they invest in assets. So that's like gambling for rich people. The rich people, they always make money off of that. They get more rich. So you've got the poor people trying to buy lottery tickets to hope that they can manage to escape their desperation, which now you really feel it. People are becoming really desperate. People are becoming so poor. And crypto is like a lifeboat for a lot of people. And there's a lot of scammy projects. And part of that is also like a reflection of the huge level of desperation where people are like, oh, I have no chance to escape this system of slavery except gambling on like dog coins or whatever. But in general, also the world itself, the political system by design is made in such a way that it disenfranchises people. And that's why, for example, we only have like a two-party political system is because of how liberal politics says the people, the aim of politics is just to mediate disagreements between people, not as a way of integrating different communities together. And so there's a consequence where we have is that there's widespread nihilism in society where people, they don't own any wealth. But at the same time, they don't own any political power either. So for a lot of people, it's like, why should I engage in politics? And therefore they just end up like in their own small world where they're kind of fed like celebrity and consumer culture. And the situations coming to a point, there was actually a Soviet writer who wrote about in the last days of the Soviet Union, the people were watching the television and what they were watching on the television was a completely different reality to what they were living. They could actually see that the economy was falling apart all around them. They couldn't imagine any other kind of reality. They'd been like born into this reality. And so they just kind of kept going on their daily lives the same way. And I'm not saying that we live in the same system as the Soviet Union. We live in a very different system, but we do live in a similar situation now where we can clearly see that things are falling apart around us. But like people are unable to imagine like what comes next. And it's like the movies are also reflecting that as well now. Like the movies are, there's a lot of suspense. There's a lot of unknown. It's constant tension. It's like building and also a lot of apocalypse scenarios in movies. So it's almost like the movies that we're watching are reflecting the actual hidden fears of society at large. Something is going to happen like in the next five years. We don't know exactly what it is, but we know that it's happening. We can see in the same way when like a human being becomes sick, they start going terminal because of complications. Like one thing triggers another thing and triggers another thing. The system has become too complex. And with COVID, what we've done is the supply lines have been completely cut in this globalized system. And it's like most supply lines took decades to build. They took a long time to build. It's like, oh, we're just going to press the reset button and all of that is going to come back online again. No way it's not happening. We're heading into like this huge unknown era and the governments and the states as well, they honestly don't know how to deal with it. If they had a plan, for example, the best evidence of that is when the coronavirus came, the way that every single government did something completely different. You know like The way that they all gave contradictory advice first, they said, oh, don't wear a mask. Then they say, wear a mask. So this situation has come into a log in. And the only thing that they're trying to do is that there's all of this discontent, there's all this brewing unrest from people. And they're like, we need to control people more to stop that happening. Because honestly, human beings like fundamentally, you can never ever use physical power to coerce someone's ideas because people are going to believe what they're going to believe. And in fact, use physical coercion. People are going to resist you. People are going to actively oppose you. It's going to make them worse. You have to use persuasion. And if you use persuasion, it means that your ideas actually have to be real. They have to be truthful. You know, like you have to, there's to be something behind them. And the Western system now doesn't have that. It doesn't have its own truth. And that's why liberals in the US who used to be in the past like free speech activists have now become anti free speech because they don't have any philosophy or solution to the crisis or to any crisis. There's this very worrying trend now towards censorship and towards control and power and domination, which is a huge problem because as well as we said with the political system, it's being centralized. Also, the economic system is being centralized. Local banks play a very important key role where they lend to small businesses or small enterprises. And therefore they increase the amount of liquidity that's available in the local community. Whereas the big banks, they don't do that. The big banks and especially the Western system, which is about just accumulating for maximal profit, where what's happening now is that all the money that's being printed by the state and given to the big central banks is used for asset purchases. And the problem with asset purchases is that the only way that you can make profit off of that is if other people are buying. So for example, one of the main asset purchase real estate, so real estate speculation where other people are buying more money is being printed. That money has been used to make more purchases, driving the price up. As soon as you stop printing money to inflate that bubble, the person who came in the last, they're the first to go bust and that drives the price down and then more and more people start to go bust. And that's what leads to these boom bust cycles. And that's very much a problem now because they're printing infinite money. And the whole reason they're printing money is they're like going, oh, this money will go out into society, into the hands of people who are becoming poor, but it's not going into their hands. It's just going into the hands of speculators who are getting insanely rich. And the state or the power apparatus, which wants to have more control over society because of the instability that's coming around or the change that they oppose is trying to focus the economic power into the central bank. So that's why they talk about central bank digital currencies. And also one of the memes is like UBI or Universal Basic Income, which is essentially their airdrop or fiat, shiqoing airdrop to incentivize people to move over to digital currency. There's this war on cash now as well. They're trying to make cash illegal because it's the only free means of exchange that people have with the CBDCs as well. They're also talking about providing incentives for people to have a better exchange rate to encourage people to move from cash into digital currency. The problem with that is the CBDCs is that people will just have a bank account directly at the central bank. And when we brought in China from the WEF in the 90s, the whole idea was that, oh, China would become more like the West. They would start copying Western values. But that hasn't happened. China's just being China. And in fact, the West is actually copying it from China. So China's doing this whole social credit scoring system. And the West has actually gone, oh, that's an inspiration. Like we should copy that. That's a really good idea. And that's what a lot of the CBDCs is actually about is actually creating this system of credit where they can incentivize people for certain kinds of behaviors to engineer society to behave a certain way. And that's why I use the positive reinforcement. A lot of the crypto community has also become enamored with this idea of social engineering or this idea of, oh, we can create systems for people to behave in a certain way. And this is also what the E-Foundation also spoke a lot about before, how they engineer markets to get people to behave a certain way. Luckily, the whole kind of emerging defi space, which is outside of the influence of Ethereum Foundation has kind of responded with a resounding no. And there's something very interesting emerging inside of DAOs and defis, which is about democratic politics and post-corporate forms of organizational structure. So one also interesting thing about DAOs is also the high level of engagement by women. So there's a lot of women in DAOs participating very active, which is interesting. But also defi as well, which is there's very much is focused on how can we create cooperative economy or like types of organization, which is not hierarchical or not oriented around the corporate structure. And the interesting thing about these primitives is they're kind of tools that people can use to create their own systems of organization before this kind of power and capital monopolies have a chance to narrow them ideologically. So it's leading to something that's very interesting kind of a merchant. Anna: You cover a lot of topics here and some of them are really sensitive for modern society, especially about social engineering. And how we can be accurate doing what we do in blockchain space now, not to repeat the disadvantages of the system that we have for the moment in traditional society. Let's put it that way. I can see that you understand a lot about processes behind the modern world and technologies. And as a smart person, you can choose whatever you want to be. And what you really want to do in your life. Could you tell me why you think that this particular thing about freedom, about being free to express yourself and understanding what is going on in real world, is important for you as a person, why you decided to do what you're doing now? Amir Taaki: I think there are like two kind of tendencies. I think nature is very important. Like We originate from nature. And when we talk about nature, we're not talking about the number of trees or the extent of biomass. Something thats to do with beauty and richness and complexity. And also there's human nature. So human nature or humanity is not about the number of humans, but it's about something that emerges out of human beings. And it comes from our sense of will. So nature is not, as people think it is, like a Darwinist fight to the death. But nor is it like some peaceful utopia. Like nature is dynamism, creativity, vitality. Nature is a very core important spiritual value for people to hold. And in particular, the things that progress upwards or upwards, and that will that we have, which create. Therefore, like our goal is to lead to an increase of what is like good, what is true, and what is beautiful in the world. And all throughout history, there has been this kind of struggle between the two forces of civilization. If you go back to even the origin of civilization, the kind of mythologies, which there's like the story of the first military dictatorship, and then the tribal resistances that led to the confederation around that. And all of the kind of creativity in society kind of originate from that kind of free will that human beings have. And that's what leads to also scientific and technological development. That's why, for example, the Renaissance was the period of intense human growth. It like Isaac Newton, he was like a romantic. He was like very passionate about, he was also a Christian. He wrote a lot about his speculations about God and his diaries. Also, the ancient Greeks, they had a lot of science and technology. They had steam power. They had electricity. They had hydraulics. They had even like primitive computers. They had such like advanced knowledge. They had like really advanced philosophy. But they never really had like a scientific revolution or an industrial revolution. In fact, what happened was the library of Alexandria ended up being burned down by the Christians, and it became like this symbol of oppression because the scientists, they were like an elite that was disconnected from society, never really applied their ideas. In fact, the only application of their ideas was to make toys to amuse kings. So as a consequence, all that knowledge was kind of lost. So I kind of see that kind of happening in technology today as well. And I have no interest in technology because it's to amuse myself with. For me, technology is a very powerful means of like changing things. And that's ultimately what humans with ambition and will want to do, is we want to shape things, shape reality. All these things that I was talking about, like algorithm and defined doubts, we're not like top down trying to bring like a politics or a narrative to kind of what's happening with Dau's and Defi. We've actually done like a lot of research and trying to understand the communities that are there. And what is the kind of latent will of the community to try and bring that out. And what we are doing is we're trying to add a depth and richness and sophistication to that, to enable that politics to be more effective in its objectives. So essentially, what that means is there's like a will that exists inside of the communities. And there is a certain also widespread feeling in society now. And there is also emerging crises like crisis of ecology, also technological crises with like, for example, development of surveillance superstructures, automated weaponry. You know, for example, now they can fly drones in the sky that just cover the sky for hours, and people can't move on the ground. And so that last avenue of resistance against tyranny is being taken away from us. Also terrorism as well is also an emerging threat. So there are all these like confluence of forces. So the question is like, how do we navigate forwards? Like how do we expand and grow with our kind of philosophy? You know, if you ask the question like, okay, so why is nature so important? Or like why is human nature so important to preserve? I think ultimately that's a question that can't be answered with logic. There are some people who I've spoken to believe the development of AI is inevitable. I also think AI is most likely going to be kind of realized or some form of like inorganic life. That inorganic life doesn't have to necessarily develop disconnected from human life, or like what currently exists. It can be like also an outgrowth or an extension of that. But those people also believe the unlimited power or like domination over the human being, they believe it's like desirable and they actually want to initiate that. So if you believe that, then I guess in some ways you have some kind of like self-hatred, you know, like or desire not to exist. Human beings instinctively, you know, like for example now, a lot of people criticize Donald Trump because they go, oh yeah, he was saying all these conspiracies that there's like pedophiles in the government and stuff. But the thing is, is actually it's a lot that's quite true. There's a lot of weird twisted stuff that's like happening in the senses of power. And there's like a reason why like human beings like instinctually, when we see like people that have like absolute power, kind of like want to pull them down from that position, you know, because there's something wrong with being able to like have like absolute control over another human being. And it leads to these kind of like sadistic tendencies, which is kind of interesting because sadism as a kind of philosophy emerged out the French upper class or aristocracy. Human beings, I think we have empathy as well. And that empathy, it's like not rational. Like for example, why do you like give money to charity? Or why do you help someone lesser off? If you are truly logical, you'd say, oh, that person, like I should keep that money and I should put it towards like a better cause to like maximize its effects. But a lot of us don't do that. Or if we see like even a baby animal, like a baby lion or a baby tiger, we feel some like empathy towards it. Why? It's not rational, but it's it indicates that not everything is like purely biological. You know, some part of us that transgresses like what's like truly about like the self. So in some ways you can see like human societies as like an organism. And then there's another thing when I compare like human society and colonies, people often take offense at that thing. Oh, we're nothing like ants, but ants are tremendously complex. Something like 20% of all the biomass in the world is ants. Ants form these giant super colonies that span continents. They're enormous. And when they put a pain on the ants and they observed ants, they're able to travel from one side of the super colony all the way to the other side and back again. They have like the workers, they have a kind of diplomacy between themselves. The answer also have like classes, they have different roles. You have Dr. Ants that like heal the other ants. Yes, advanced society civilization, basically. If you look ant colony, it's kind of like one organism. The ants, when they go, they leave pheromones, they have a type of communication. And, you know, they're kind of like appendages that like grow out from this intelligence, this collective intelligence. And what's interesting about cryptocurrency is it's very obscure for a lot of people now because a lot of people are like, oh, it's just like a Ponzi scheme or like a way of making money, but it's not. It's actually like human beings or economics, the financial relations is like a form of like signals between people or like a form of communication or coordination. So this crypto technology is like an advanced technology for coordinating human beings at scale. Anna: As I understand your empathy and your feeling like you belong to society motivates you to keep going in that direction and to start your project. Amir Taaki: Yeah, but also free society. That's where all the kind of creativity and development come from. And I want to see more humanity. I think, yes, you can kind of look and go like, you know, we've fallen so far. But also there is something that is important to kind of preserve. It's like all our kind of knowledge and our history and the things we've made, culture. Anna: I love this beauty of society. And when you feel like world is in some kind of balance, it's not like hectic. To destroy and you don't feel pressure from the things that happened in the world in the moment. So what is your big aim when you can say, okay, I reached my goal. Yeah, I can say that, okay, I do something that is really valuable for me. I changed something that I believe to. Amir Taaki: I think I've got worse over time. So I don't think there's any end really. But I think there's this like concept of struggle. Okay, a lot of people think it's oppressive to have a religion. And yes, religion can be very oppressive and stagnant. But there can also be something liberating in believing in some higher power or some higher ideals in the sense that it gives you the ability to overcome challenge. Every time we overcome challenge, we like grow a little bit. It's like in the same way when you break a bone, it like heals stronger. So that's why ideas are very powerful. Because if you look at human history, human history is shaped through human will and human action. People like do things, they act and they like shape things. But that human will and human action is shaped by like concepts and paradigms and beliefs and ideologies and stories and narratives. Maybe I'm projecting, but I think the way that I understand the world is in terms of stories. Like I always like, when I think about something, I have like a story in my head, I tell myself and I think a lot of people are very similar. So stories are kind of powerful, you know, it's that story that we create, which drive, for example, like science, like a lot of people think science is just like search for objective truth. But it's not really true because the money that goes into science is shaped by the political bias of society. And so where that money is directed shapes how science evolves or develops. And as I said, like technology is a tool of power. Technology is essentially like using material matter, like there's material matter in the world. And then shaping that in some way to give you power over like the environment around you or over other human beings or other animals. Then the question is, is like, okay, that power for what purpose does it serve? And that purpose that power serves can't be answered by science. It's like answered by ethics and ethics is decided by society at large. And so therefore, like the development of science and technology is very important that society is involved in that discourse. Because if society is not involved in that discourse, then that science and technology will be used against society. And the loyalty of that class of scientists and technologists will be to the state and not to society. So I was talking about how in Alexandria, with Alexandria and library, that class became like a priest class, which got burned down by the society by Christians in that society because they were viewed as oppressors. So this is the fate of science and technology that serves power is that it will become an enemy of the people and eventually it will be burned down, you know, because we're in this war now where the system of power and capital is trying to depress human will and nature itself. And we're seeing all this like increase in like natural disasters, terrorist ideologies and so on. And so in some way, you can compress that human will so much, but it's like a spring which will bounce back. When it bounces back here, it comes with like force and power. So if we don't want to see that crisis happen, something has to change like something has to give. We can't just keep going on our trajectory without consequences because it's like it's all coming to a head. And there are those who have a position of power, they have like certain benefits. They don't want to see things change because it threatens their position of power. Anna: I love how you say that we thinking about stories because I believe as a human being, we more believe stories by our nature because we are talking to each other and we can tell stories and of course we need to know the history. We can see analogy and history. So my last question for today, it's going to be, do you have any really happy stories that you can see now in the society about our future? Amir Taaki: Yes. So the Kurdish movement, they're like a people that has been split between four nation states. That was deliberately done to kind of like weaken them. And the language nearly went extinct in the 80s, were nearly as a nation completely eliminated. But they've managed to not only spring back from that, but they have like a very strong kind of like philosophy. They kind of had this analysis and they had this kind of like thinking and they kind of went actually, we shouldn't just be fighting for a Kurdish nation state like everybody else is doing in the way. In fact, that's like the problem is everybody's fighting for a nation state of their particular ethnicity. But actually what we should be doing is like we should try to create like a civilization with many different groups, ethnic groups, different nations, even nation of women as well. They will have their own power and they have a way of achieving consensus between them. Even though they're like completely outgunned in terms of like the resources and weapons and everything that all the surrounding states have access to, they somehow like managed to hold their ground for a very long time. And in some ways, their influence is extending throughout the entire wider Middle East and even beyond the Middle East into other countries. So for example, in Ireland, they're adopting the same philosophy as the PKK. There's Irish political parties that have using the same symbolism as the PKK is. And there's been like a lot of problems between many ethnic groups in the Middle East, for example, Kurds and Arabs have been fighting each other. Yeah, in the region that they control in North Syria, there's Arabs are like actively participating in the administration. They have their own areas under their control and they've managed to live and work side by side. This is a very important question because there's a very big problem in Israel with the Jews and Palestinians. And a lot of people always say, should we have a one state system or a two state system? But nobody ever asks a question like what about a no state solution? Why do we want a political system where there's like an Arabs and there's Jews and only one of them can be in power? Like why? And they have to fight for that power. It's like a life or death situation. Like who designed such a bad political system and also women as well. The problem with like modern feminism is it goes like, oh, women have to become like men. Like women have to adopt men characteristics, have to like fight in the same arena. Maybe they have like a completely different social nature and that's actually a valuable social nature, which is actually essential to society. So if you look at ancient societies, they used to have the Council of Mothers like ancient pagan society, native Indian society, native Indians like the Iroquois Confederation. So a lot of people when we talk about this like no state system, which it's not like there isn't a system. There's yes, there's a system of government. There's a system of administration, but it's the each nation in society organized amongst themselves and the political structure is from from those nations, not the other way around. But there's many examples throughout history, like for example, the Cossacks, they were very influential for many hundreds of years. They had like military democratic communes, the Iroquois Confederation, the Celts, the ancient Mesopotamia. So all throughout history, the history of state civilization has not been linear. There's been many struggles and any freedoms that we preserve today is as a consequence of the struggles of those movements to preserve spaces of freedom. And so therefore, those people are forefathers that we kind of like stand on their shoulders and have to kind of like understand their history so that we kind of extend their legacy forwards. And also interestingly today, there is like a growing realization with many movements, not just inside of crypto, as I was saying, like the democratic tendencies inside of dows and defies, which is emerging and becoming very strong and something that we want to help kind of bolster and reinforce. Also in many movements across the world today, for example, cooperative movements or the city's movements, like for example, the movement to take over municipalities and have like their locally based movements. So I think there's like a growing realization by people in society about the situation that we're in and like a real desire and a real effort to change things. And we see that as well in like the growing awareness of ecological problems. So the actual will is there. And the real question is if people want to do something, clearly people want to change things. People like want the society to be better. But the trouble is, first of all, conceptualizing or like visualizing, making that vision of like, where are we going towards that can bring people together? And then the second step is like actually concretely making strategy or steps. And our focus is technology. So that's like our main area of focus that we're focusing in. Anna: Amir Thank you so much for being with me today. Thank you for so deep and so controversial. I can say talk with me and hope to see you next time. Amir Taaki: Thanks for having me. Anna: Thank you. Outro: This content was created by the citizen web3 validator if you enjoyed it please support us by delegating on citizenweb3.com/staking and help us create more educational content.