#citizenweb3 Episode link: https://www.citizenweb3.com/kellykim Episode name: Power of Memes, Crypto Cult and Creativity with Kellykim Citizen Web3 Hi everybody. Welcome to a new pod. Let me do it again. Sorry. Hi everybody. Welcome to a new episode of the Citizen Web3 podcast I have today. came with me today from Wallet Connect. Kelly, hi. Welcome to the show. Kelly Hi Serge, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to yap a little bit with you today. Citizen Web3 Nice. And I have a question for you you about Yapping, but to comment a bit before it, please. I mean, I did a short intro for you, but if you can for myself, for the listeners, introduce yourself, tell us what you're doing in Web3. How did you get to this life? Web3, I mean, of course, in a good way and in a bad way if you want and everything else you want us to know about you. Kelly Yeah, so I think from birth I was a little bit degen. Just kidding. basically, yeah, right now I am the intern, the social media person at Wallet Connect. So day in, day out, I'm. basically on, you know, either crypto Twitter or, rummaging through Firecaster, managing different sorts of like web three partnerships. It's so much fun. And the team is awesome. On the side, I have my own, I guess, podcast. So it's kind of weird being on the other side and it's very unserious. In fact, this whole industry is very unserious, but also like very serious in a good way. I've been. I've been sort of in the Web3 space since 2021. I was a copywriter before that straight out of uni. And then I decided to learn how to code, decided to learn how to code in blockchain straight after that because I think for anyone listening, if you've been in like a bootcamp type of situation, I did a full stack bootcamp. you have an existential crisis at the end. You're like, okay, I'm not qualified enough or, you know, I don't know enough about building or developing to become a like regular developer so quickly. So I was like, let's just do like the hardest thing I can think of. And maybe that will put me, you know, set me apart from the rest. And I really just fell in love with the tech. in a very utopic way. mean, maybe now it's a little more nuanced and mostly as well the people in the space because everyone is really weird. And I feel like I've been waiting to find these people my whole life. So this brings me to where I am today. I've worked in a bunch of different projects and startups, Pinata being one of them. And I volunteered also for E3O. Kelly I've really, I've been around. I've been around in a good way. And I think I quite like where I am now because the tech is maturing. You know, I have a really good community or online community of people that I regularly like reply girl to and they reply girl or guide me back. So all is well, all is well. Citizen Web3 Nice. I have a few questions to follow up from here. But let's first, if you don't mind, I'm going to dig a little bit about you. what did you study first of all? You said straight out of uni, I'm curious. What did you study? then first of all, first question, what did you study? Because that's going to be about the second question too. Kelly Yeah, I'm quite a basic bitch. I don't know if I can swear on this. Okay, that's it. That's that's a good precedent. I feel very comfortable now. But yeah, I went to business school. I actually before that I started off in journalism. And then I decided this is way too political. I went to the University of Sydney. And I don't know if you've seen much about the politics there. But it's very, very, it's not my taste. Citizen Web3 You can say anything you want. can say fuck, bitch, cunt, whatever you want. There you go. I did it for you. Kelly So yeah, I was like, you know what? I'm gonna go to business school so at least I can get a job. Citizen Web3 You know, I'm, why I'm asking, I'm asking because it is interesting. mean, I've been doing the podcasting part for about four and a half years now in blockchain. And I've noticed from, you know, talking to a big number of founders and myself included in that list and Vitalik, example, included in that list. A lot of crypto founders start from content and journalism. is really, really, really a big, big, big, big, big wave. And I was going to ask you, have you noticed that? And if you notice that, what do you think about it? How does this relate? How does it relate finding at least to you in your head? Kelly Right, mean I think the biggest thing with, I mean the biggest motive for studying journalism is to get to truth and I feel like maybe crypto or as a vertical or industry. there really is, we're trying to get to the ultimate truth, whether it's verifiable cryptography, trustless transactions. is very, unfortunately, I feel like in our world, it's very hard to find objective truths. I either find people in crypto come from journalism or like maths. And these are very... different, I would say verticals, but somehow the goal, like the end goal of both, are the same, where it's, we just want to be able to trust things that we see or transact with or deal with. So yeah, think truth. Truth is it. Citizen Web3 You said like, you know, I mean the joke, right? But jokes aside, you degen from birth. And I can kind of relate to that, but I want to know why, I mean, apart from feeling like, you know, degen from birth, why Web3? And the reason I'm asking that is because once again, you know, throughout those years of talking to people, one of the focus that we've been having, and for example, Pedro from Wallet Connect, you know, when he came on, It was one of the big topics we had with them as well, trying to understand why do people, that, know, like seeking the truth is a good answer, but for example, developers, journalists, why does Web3 attract? And the question to you is why did Web3 attract you? mean, why didn't you go to seek the truth in, I don't know, physics and science and space and in anything else? Why Web3? What connects you to here apart from finding the truth? Kelly Yeah, I guess my first gut answer to that is like, was so not interested in physics. When I see numbers, I get a migraine. I will have an aneurysm. but you know, yeah, jokes aside, I think with crypto, it's not just like finding truth in the mathematical sense or like you cannot just put in an equation and sort of, you know, it spits out the truth per se. Citizen Web3 Yeah. Kelly I think it's kind of the notion of crypto bleeds into so many different areas of life. For example, like I love creating content and the fact that you can leverage like blockchain technology or crypto to make content more fun or more beneficial for both the creator and the audience. Like this is really beautiful to me. think it's a When you really like start to understand why people are building what they're building, you know, beyond the board games, beyond all the, I don't know, the meme coins and the shit coins. It's really, it's a beautiful idyllic space. you know, everyone sets out in life, at least for me, like I was like, I want to do something for the world. Like I want to be, everyone wants to be special. but in a productive way. And I feel like you contributing to this technology is really going to leave a legacy in a good way for everyone else in the world. Like I'll die in peace, knowing that I was one of the people to try creating content on chain, et cetera, et cetera. So yeah, impact and challenge. Citizen Web3 Why did you get into crypto? Because I wanted to die in peace. I love that. This should be a quote. I love it. I love it. Love it. But, know, that we're going to be definitely famous. know, but I'm going to again pick on a jokey sentence you said, because it correlates with me. And that's why I'm picking on it. It's more of a devil's advocate thing, you know, because you're talking about finding the truth. Kelly Famous last words. Citizen Web3 And, you know, the humor is there, but, you know, you are being serious as well. You you're talking about the legacy and I'm absolutely, absolutely loving it. But in the beginning, and you mentioned two words, weird and serious industry. And I want to look at it from a different perspective because, you know, if I open my Twitter feed today, and unfortunately, you know, Twitter is number one in crypto, you know, for many years, unfortunately, but it is, you know, And it's the kind of place to go to find information. And there was a lot of founders that kind of say, hey, this this industry super unserious. I love it. You know, why why is it important for this industry, at least in your opinion, to to stay weird and unserious? And is it important? Kelly Yeah, I think when things get too serious, you lose the creativity and kind of the will to push boundaries, to explore. And it's just, I don't know, like it kind of really decimates. I hate this word, like saying in this sense, but the vibes. And it's a very vibe, vibe driven industry. And the fact that the founders are actually some of the most unserious people make it extremely fun. for everyone working towards this collective goal. yeah, I mean, even in my job, like memes, I cannot believe I did not think like in business school, I'd be like, doing memes for a living. But memes are the way to growth and to resonate with community. It's quite insane, you know, but I think that's one of the things I stayed, it's just so fun. And at the same time, it's really challenging and you feel, you know, you know that you're doing Citizen Web3 Totally. Kelly work that's harder than non crypto people in some sense. No shade on them. I love, I think everyone's doing a great job at whatever they're doing, but just, you know, personally, I feel like, yeah, we're having a great time doing this extremely hard, high resistance work, you know, and it's quite, it's very, wow, I just had a brain blank, rewarding. Citizen Web3 It happens. This is why memes, why we have memes, know, because I think crypto people in general. Well, I'm talking about myself here, but, I feel like the brain blanking is a kind of a common thing that happens with crypto people. So that's why we have memes to like sort of, hey, I don't know what to say, but there we go. You know, this is going to take over the world. But it's true. You know, it works. The irony is that it works, you know, and Kelly Yeah. Kelly Yeah, but here's a frog. Citizen Web3 I mean, I've been in this industry for a long, time and like really almost since the beginning. And I started to understand memes and their power only very recently, only like maybe the last cycle, like 2021, 2000, like even though I knew about it existence for so long, but I couldn't understand it. And the question I have to you, I mean, do you really like... Kelly, I mean, forget about for a second, you know, working with Wallet Connect and working in crypto. I mean, Kelly personally, how does she, what power does she see in memes and why does she think memes have power? I mean, is it really the brain blank that I just mentioned or is there anything bigger to that, you know, like really that has meaning at least to you personally? Kelly Mm -hmm. Kelly Right. I mean, going back to the concept of being super unserious, the world, like there's some pretty serious shit happening. I think when people scroll and they see a meme that makes them laugh, it's like that one glimpse of lightness throughout the day or maybe in their lives. And okay, this is getting very deep about memes, but really I think it provides people the comedic relief they need from the rest of the world and then you know instantly without them knowing that emotional like association like this made me happy like I like it I'm going to stay in this community because it makes me feel good it's just about feeling good at the end of the day so yeah i think that they are magic memes are magic and actually It's very hard to be a great shitposter and a meme magician. I'm still like practicing it. I'm also like, I feel like my humor is very dad humor or like grandma humor. it's my boomerism gets in the way of my work sometimes. But yeah. Citizen Web3 I can tell you it's good. I like it. So it's good. You're doing great. But I understand. I totally agree with you. Sometimes we look at, again, being a little bit, I guess, an anarchist and an uncap personally, because that field is closely connected with crypto, a lot close. And that field also kind of says, Kelly you Citizen Web3 I will not stop shitposting until the government goes away, know, those kind of things, you know. And, you know, we believe there is some personal belief in it today that I have that, it can change the world, you know. But I was going to ask you, you have also a podcast, right? And the YAP Podcast. And you mentioned YAP in the beginning. Do you guys talk, what is the main, I mean, do you talk about memes there? Do you talk about, well, what is the main topic of your podcast and why did you start it? Let's go like that. Kelly Mm Kelly Yeah, this is what guests ask me all the time and I have no answer. So the podcast is like, I call it like a yap on it, but it's called Taste and one of my, I don't know, like my dream kind of project in life is, I don't know if you've seen on YouTube, like Hot Ones where they eat like really spicy chicken wings and like he also interviews celebrities while they do that. And there's also Chicken Shop Date, where she like... dates people at chicken shops. just okay firstly I love food this is why I wanted to do this but my goal with this podcast was to get Vitalik in a dingy like disgusting, well not disgusting sorry like a dingy small cozy ramen shop and just slurp some ramen with him on camera. This is my ultimate goal. So yeah what do I do on this podcast? Okay well I interview people and I try I tried the whole IRL thing but it's super super hard to coordinate. It's not, for now at least with like my budget, it's not possible. And I asked them just about themselves like you are right now with me. But like kind of, I guess, yeah, I tried to not talk about... what they do so much except sometimes I forget it. They want to talk about their project because it's amazing, really exciting. You know, they're the founder. So of course they want to talk about what they're doing. but yeah, just trying to provide people the comedic relief, you know, like we talked about, but, just with conversations, asking them really weird questions about who they are, making them eat stuff on camera. I don't know. This is my dream. Like it makes me super happy that I might be so, you know, sure I'm smart, but so intellectually different from someone else, but we can still share the same act of eating and like food is a universal thing, right? So it definitely like helps to break the ice or maybe like neutralize where we are as human beings, like with our own mental space, our interests, it levels us. And I think... Kelly Yeah, I hope guests kind of appreciate that. And also the, maybe the guest that I have on my, interviewer, interviewee, sorry, also appreciates that. But just trying to do something different. I actually had a podcast when I first kind of got into the, industry. It was called, what was it called? Proof of Human. Similar thing. except I tried way too hard to understand and inquire about deeply technical topics. I ended up not really enjoying the process. So yeah, I guess this, this, this rendition is definitely more on chain because it's all minted, you know, on the blockchain via pods. Plus it's actually something that I enjoy doing. So it's a bit selfish in that respect, but Hey, like if I don't enjoy it, I don't think my listeners or guests will enjoy it either. So. That's the goal. think the motto that I have on my website is bringing taste on chain through tasty conversations with seriously on chain builders. I think the concept of taste as well is very big right now because it's kind of like Riz or just having the knack for memes. You just kind of have to have taste to survive and create a successful project. That's my pod. Citizen Web3 think it's crazy how much people underestimate, especially until they're like in their 40s, the amount of serotonin that warm food releases when you eat it. It's so crazy that we are so food dependent as humans. No, it's true though. When you try to be hungry and just eat soup, like ramen, you will instantly get happy. There is like, you will change as a person. Kelly you Kelly Yeah. Citizen Web3 Then we start to like, we so food dependent? Well, we are. I think there is a lot to what you say and I can share with you from my side, at least we do a lot of things as a project, but as a podcast and as a podcast founder, I think it took me three and a half years to understand why I have the podcast. So, it takes time. It takes time. Kelly Yeah. Everyone's starting a podcast. Citizen Web3 It's true, you know, it takes it I think like You are right though in what you said, you know You're doing it because you want to talk about those things those are interesting to you and you know when I talk to people and this is another thing that I think we definitely doing in the same way and Our podcast is definitely not about projects. In fact, I've refused to interview big name founders like a class celebrities for years at least two for two two and a half years until they would agree to talk about themselves and not about their projects and to come and just share just like you are doing right now, instead of this is our marketing budget and da da da. It's like, okay, but I just want to talk to you. I don't want to talk to your project. Yeah, so totally understand that. Do you think that apart from Vitalik eating a ramen, slurping a ramen, who else would you say would be a perfect guest and who would you never? Kelly Yeah. Citizen Web3 definitely interview out of Web3 of course. Kelly Ufft. Perfect guess. I mean yeah, apart from Vitalik, I would think... Next in line is Balaji. Balaji Srinivasan. I really love like thinking about network states and all of this. I love that stuff. Who else do I want to interview? Who would I not... Who would I not interview? Out of Web3. I'm not very... I don't... I'm not very picky, I get... Citizen Web3 Okay. Okay. Citizen Web3 Who would you not interview? Out of web three. Citizen Web3 It's a nasty question. It's a nasty question. I'm sorry. Kelly Is this jeopardizing my success? No, I really don't. I don't think there's many people I wouldn't interview unless, okay, I would probably not. I don't know if this is going to get me canceled, but just anyone who is like super, super communist, I am very against this. they, if they're going to bring super, super communist views on and like kind of Citizen Web3 No, no, no, no, it will not. No, no, no, no. Kelly Yeah, even if they're not talking about their project, I don't think there's much that we can really talk about. Even food, like, you want to distribute the same piece of bread to 100 people? I don't think we can chat here. Not saying that, you know. Yeah, anyways, this can get very or -y, but yeah, super communist or super pro -terror, I'm very against those sorts of those people. I think that's fair. Citizen Web3 think Doc 1 is definitely like, I'm just gonna put myself on par here, right? So you don't feel, so you're the only person who's get cancelled, I'm gonna make myself cancelled too. I think Doc 1 is definitely a person who I'm not sure if I want to interview because of the whole story, of course. But moving to the next thing, know, like... Kelly Mmm. Citizen Web3 I saw these days online information is amazing and you don't need the FBI, you just go online and you find everything you want about a person. So of course I do my homework when I prepare to interview people. you were a mentor at Teeth Global, right? I want to ask you about how did you get to do that and what experience came out of it? Kelly Yeah, I mean, at the time I was actually doing DevRel for Pinata. So I was there on behalf of Pinata, just helping people navigate IPFS and how to use Pinata to get to decentralized storage into their app. It was amazing. really think that was my, in my whole entire life, that was my favorite event, like favorite ETH global conference. The food was amazing. can't even, okay, the first thing is the food. The catering was just like out of this world. Also that's probably where I got the idea of ramen. I don't think I, yeah, don't hate on me, but I didn't have a single sushi on that trip. I had ramen every single day. And also like I did not know, I mean, I'm Asian myself, but I've never been to like an Asian. Asia oriented conference. I know there's a lot of stuff going on in the Asia like APAC region, but that that conference was the first time that I got to actually see, you know, like what innovation is coming out of, you know, Japan specifically, but also I met some people from Korea where I'm from. It was really like cool. It kind of like brought me closer to home and I felt very comfortable being representing a company and also being amongst my people. It was really, really cool. The builders were very, I don't think they slept much, but they were very nice. Very motivated, intelligent. It was a really great experience. But yeah, was just mostly very impressed by the quality of the conference, the attendees. The venue was great. Yeah. Citizen Web3 I think that in general, know, if the conferences are amongst like, you know, when we talk ecosystems, I definitely would say that Ethereum conferences are very strong in terms of food, actually, by the way, it's interesting, but they really are. And by the way, in terms of Asia in general and Asian orientation, I would say that I think, I don't know if you are only in the Ethereum ecosystem. But for example, in my personal experience, I would say that the Cosmos ecosystem has got a lot of Korean influence. Of course, the founder himself and a lot of people, a lot of projects, especially like that were at the start of Cosmos were based or still based in Seoul or in Korea. So, yeah, it's crazy to see the multi -nationality orientation and nobody giving a fuck about where you're from or... Kelly Yeah. Kelly Yeah. Citizen Web3 what how you look it's amazing and I think that you know it should be I think that is actually one thing that definitely web 3 is ready to teach the other world in my opinion already today is saying hey fuck it look at this it's working people are from all over the world nobody cares you know nobody asks as long as they speak some kind of English it's okay we can build a product you know Kelly Yes. Yeah, and Korea is interesting because I have a lot of national pride even though like I say like I would never go live in Korea. I really would never live in Korea to be honest. I don't think I could fit in like my culture personally but we're either like we're very very good at things like we don't it's kind of like Israelis like we We don't hold back. We have to be the best. We have to excel. We are all the way. So you you get some bad eggs like the Quan, but you also get like some really smart, intelligent, I guess ethical people. So it's really interesting. I actually have never like really connected with Korea itself. I would love to be at Korea Blockchain Week. Are you going or have you been or no? Citizen Web3 No, I've never I've never been and I live kind of remotely. So I live like in the middle of the ocean. So I'm absolutely serious. I'm on an island in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. Yeah. So it's a bit hard sometimes to travel. So Kelly are you serious? Are you on an island? Kelly wow. How did you get those? Yeah, okay. don't think people are listening so they can't see. The soundproof things. Citizen Web3 Ask, ask, ask, ask, ask, ask, ask. So for everybody who cannot see, did do some years ago, we did do some lives and maybe people, I hope that there are still some listeners still who are dragging from that and did see it, but probably he cannot see. I have some paddings here at the back and it's very easy. Actually, I went to, like it's a room that my girlfriend is actually works a lot with music. DJ amongst other things, she's an artist, but she's a DJ. so she works a lot with art and with music and I work a lot with sound. So we decided to kind of do a studio and those are just in Ikea, like they're from Ikea, just like squares that we glued onto the wall. And yeah, it's completely changed the sound. it's definitely, yeah, we have Ikea on the island. Kelly Ow. Kelly That's awesome. Kelly That's amazing. And why did you, yeah. Okay, okay, okay. So you've got IKEA, okay, you're fine. Wow. Okay, that's awesome. I would love to be stuck on an island with IKEA. Do you get hot dogs as well? Citizen Web3 Delivery only. Delivery only. No, delivery only. Delivery only. No, no, no, cannot buy. can only deliver. It's a small island. Citizen Web3 I mean, it's a Portuguese island, it's Madeira, so not a secret. And hot dogs are not a big thing in, I mean, we do have hot dogs, but they're not big. I wouldn't say that they're very good. I would not say that the hot dogs we have are definitely not the hot dogs you're thinking about. Like it's not something you would have every day. Kelly Mmm Kelly Wow. Kelly Yeah. Wow. Awesome. Citizen Web3 I want to ask you about, since we started to talk about communities and locations, you also once mentioned on Twitter that you want to, your goal or sort of part of, not your goal, but your desire is to create meaningful communities online. And my question is how, well, not so much how, what is a meaningful community in your words. And yeah, like, how do you today by using the tools that are available to you, whether that says the podcast that you have or whether that is your networking that you do via, you know, the bullet connect or anything, you know, anything else, how do you build, what is a meaningful community and how do you build one? Kelly Mm Kelly Yeah, I had a mini heart attack when you were like, you once tweeted, dun, dun. Very, yeah, I mean, I think meaningful communities, firstly, they're built very naturally. Like it shouldn't feel, you shouldn't feel too much resistance or challenge. They should be coming together naturally. And I think firstly, it's just, you have to have similar values. I think, Citizen Web3 Da Kelly you know, the one community that's kind of changed my view on life or like, I don't know, I've always felt, you know, I told you Degen by birth, but I've always felt very contrarian or like black sheep and even my lifestyle now, I'm not on an island, but I haven't really been living anywhere for a while. So finding this community of people who also think it's... okay to be like firstly okay to be working for a tech that's sometimes not viewed as like you know exactly angelic by the rest of the world or being like nomadic and kind of I don't know they're not looking down on my lifestyle choice like but like what about what about this what about that like it's not very normal for most people so being in a community that's like can understand why you make the choices you make and why you do the things you do. Like that, I think is all people really need to feel happy. And maybe some food, but just that, like a meaningful community is, hey, can we take in or can we like include some people who might feel like they're alone or not normal or unlovable? and then, you know, come together, discuss our values or our life choices and then make them feel normal or lovable or cool, you know? And it's really, I think it's harder than people say, like, if I did live in one city, I don't really think I would be as brave enough or adventurous enough to go out and find this community. You really do have to just kind of go with your gut. and go to the places that you feel like you belong and then, you know, it naturally happens. I always like some of my best friends are people that I've met in other countries. For example, like, you know, some of my best friends, met Buenos Aires this year. Amazing, like really, really like natural connection. And they all live a super like weird, quote unquote, weird life to people outside of this little niche community. Kelly But with them, it's just so natural. They're the people that I can spend hours at the dinner table, like not saying anything and just feel already like we're so much in the silence. So yeah, I don't know if I really answered that question, but basically it's a natural thing and it's values, it's lifestyle. Citizen Web3 You answered the question, but I will dig in a little bit into that. And I'm gonna come to... By the way, fun fact for you. Do you know that Pedro, the found Pedro Gomez, is from Madeira? He's from this island. Doesn't live here, but originally his family. And it's a... Kelly right! Okay. Yeah, no, no, no. Awesome. Citizen Web3 tiny island. like, you know, he's from a village, like a tiny little village in this island, which is I don't live there. But I passed that like, you know, every week or so because well, yeah, just small place. But this is what I'm gonna ask you, you know, from here, like about communities and considering, you know, that we live in Web3, this nomadic lifestyle, how you say and by the way, I can totally understand why I think being nomadic gives you more courage to build. I 100 % relate to that, like considering the amount of times I moved. what would, know, like taking all of those things you said right now into some kind of perspective or whatever, zoom out, people want to, whatever words people want to use, what would be the actual advice right now you would give, let's say, because, you know, our listeners, the audience, mainly people who work in Web3. And some of them are also community builders. And what would be the advice if you had to give such advice? What would you say something to do, definitely, and definitely something not to do if you're trying to build a Web3 meaningful community? Like one of those and one of those. Kelly Okay, something to do is hmm. Don't shit posts about political, no, I'm joking Sam. You should definitely, think, communities kind of start with not one person, but just like a, it can be even a group of people, but genuine, like a genuine presence online. And if you're super passionate and genuine about what you believe in and like who you want to attract. This is the best thing you can do because firstly, the people who are going to be like the early supporters of the community are going to be completely on board. They're going to be a friend. You know, it's not going to be like, you're not going to try an engagement farm a community, right? Like that's, that's a recipe for disaster, I think, because you'll get firstly, a lot of churn. I'm speaking about communities like products, but yeah, want to attract the right type of people. people who like stay around you and also like be willing to discuss and build it with you, like alongside you. So yeah, just being truthful, genuine about what you want and what you believe in online. I think that's the first thing you can do. Secondly, I don't know, I guess it's like the other side of the coin. Just don't engage them in a farm. I don't know, like there's something about exclusivity that makes Sometimes community is good. I think there's a difference between curation and excluding people. So yeah, if you have the wrong incentives to join at the beginning, it's not going to be very nice to rectify those mal -aligned incentives of your community members. yeah, well, let me get back to what not to do. There's a few things. Don't don't shit first about things you don't believe in. Number two is yeah, I mean, don't engagement farm. Number three, don't be a bitch. Like, be nice to people. Yeah. And if they just don't belong, I guess it like, naturally, they won't they won't stay and that's okay. Like, don't be salty. Citizen Web3 Don't be a bitch, I like that one. Citizen Web3 You kind of, you know, got that scared of the sentence community as product, but it is in a sense, no? I mean, like, it's not, it shouldn't start maybe as a product, but I can definitely understand why would somebody refer to, you know, having a large community and seeing it as a product that, for example, I, once again, let's hope none of us gets canceled here, but, you know, let's take Ada, right? Like, let's take Cardano and their community is definitely a product. Like, it's definitely... Kelly Hmm. Kelly Yeah. Kelly Right. Citizen Web3 a system of beliefs, you know, where they have all these like huge group that believes in it, doesn't matter what's gonna happen, they believe in it, it's a product. So, but I understand totally where you came from. But I was gonna say, I was gonna ask you, like, at what point, you know, do you understand how do you, at least again, personally for yourself, how do you distinguish between just having a great big community? And you know, between like, when it turns into a community that just follows you blindly and becomes nothing but a product? Is there a place like that where... I mean, I can go on historical examples, non -Web3 related. And of course, we're going to be talking about sad things, but let's not talk about sad things in history. think anybody can here use their imagination and think about a lot of sad things that have happened with big communities and they were just following orders or following things. How do we make sure in Web3... that this doesn't happen, we don't go that way because we're trying to build a different world here, I know it's a serious question, sorry, but... Kelly Yeah. I think what you're referring to is a cult. When a community becomes so big and there's like, hold on, sorry, Mexico City is very loud. I'm not sure if you can hear this. Hold on. Citizen Web3 Absolutely. Absolutely. Citizen Web3 This is we're gonna we're gonna use it. Now we're gonna use it. We're gonna use it. Let's use it. Let's use it. Let's some sirens Mexico City, you know, it's okay. It's all good. Kelly Mexico City, love the city, but the sounds, they're very special, very intrusive, you know. Anyways, so yeah, I mean, what defines a good community from a cult? I think what I see in communities is that there is really, I hate that, know, decentralized notion of being able to share and... debate things in a healthy way. Because I think as much as community is a product, it's also one that, you know, it has its own PMF and the more people are engaged and I guess, what do call it, devoted to the cause or like kind of the, I don't know if you've read network state, but the kind of overall objective, the more they feel like they can contribute to it and be recognized. and you know, it's all healthy. Then the community, like the quality of the community is defined by that. the level of how much as a contributor can I actually contribute? how, how much do I feel like my ideas are accepted and respected? there, there I think is a sign of a healthy community in saying that every product per se is, is different. I don't know, like me, myself personally, I think if I felt I was in a community where I'm just following like one person, it'd be such a red flag. I'd like, what is this, dictatorship? But you know, some people actually need that. In some ways, like crypto is a cult. It's like the biggest community and like people follow people. mean, he's the people who Vitalik. He's the people follow, I don't know who the founder of Solana is, but there are these certain laws and certain like, scales of community where you do need someone to look up to. Now, whether the kind of like mechanisms of how such a community is, I guess, established or, you know, the whole idea of like, DAOs. Do you have the right tools to be able to still voice your opinion and like vote on certain issues whilst still having this figure ahead? Like, that's a whole different question and Kelly I guess this goes back to the whole idea of why I'm here. It's because there are so many ways that you can codify solutions to the problems that we find in everyday life. So I think, yeah, it's a very nuanced question. I don't think there's any one right answer. Obviously, there are blacks and whites, like no dictatorship. So yeah. Kelly You'll feel rewarded when you're in the right place. Citizen Web3 Absolutely. It's just, you you've been part of like these two, in my opinion, super powerful Web3 communities, one being IPFS, one being Bullet Connect. And, know, in both cases, you know, those are products that I guess, you know, they are like, changing, they're changing the industry. Of course, IPFS, you know, I don't think it needs an explanation why it changes the not just the industry, but storage in general, you know, and Bullet Connect. once again, it doesn't need an explanation why and what it does and it allows, those are products, what I'm trying to say here that can even work, sorry, projects that can even work without a product. And in a sense, sometimes a lot of people get confused, right? What does it really appear, how does it monetize? Well, it doesn't, right? And my question here, I don't think I had a question when I started that, but I kind of did and then I got lost. Kelly Yeah. Kelly you Citizen Web3 I guess what I want to ask is, having an experience, I'd say working with those two big communities, big powerful communities, do you think that... Because a lot of the founders that come onto the show, like smaller founders, I'm talking about founders of smaller projects, and I can totally again relate to that. It's very difficult to build a community and the community... whether you see it as a product, which you probably shouldn't, or whether you don't see it as a product, whether you see it as people who are going to help you, a lot of founders don't know how to do it. And it's interesting that through your experience of that, you managed to be in those places which were highlighted, I guess, the communities. would you say, I guess the question here is, what... you know, would you say is the apart from memes that we already mentioned apart from, know, talking to people genuinely, you know, making them laugh, you know, and like everything you already mentioned and what not to do, you know, don't don't don't farm engage and so on. Is there like a secret sauce to to to you know, it's a silly question, of course, but Is there a secret source to why some projects like IPFS, like is it a product that creates a community that gives them that cold thing to follow that product and to do that? Or it's the people who are building the project that have that experience and can build those communities? This is, guess, the question. Kelly Yeah, wow, this is a big one. You're right in that, you know, I feel like both, I guess the world of IPFS and, to some extent, feel like firstly, they're both very pivotal technologies that, you know, the thesis is very differentiated. Like what? Like decentralized storage? Wow. And also like what? Desktops can connect to wallets by a single protocol. These are very big ideas. and I think maybe what, hmm, what they both did well at the beginning was they had this like overarching notion of whatever they're trying to achieve in the industry or for the, terms of like the technological aspect, but then they're kind of, they, they're foundational technologies, right? So every single foundation is a base for like more innovation on top of these. So I think as a community, the fact that, you know, it provided the tools for people to be able to create their own ideas and bring their own products and ideas to realization is super powerful. Like it should be, a community really should be a fertilizer for all the individual talents and goals and dreams of the people inside it. And, you know, I think The technologies are the biggest and most powerful communities because they are tools in and of itself. And also they also stand for certain ideas of how they see the world, how they think the world should be. So yeah, this combination of how useful is it and how versatile is it? Plus does it fit the worldview that I want to see? It's very abstract. It's definitely not too niche. I think even within these two ecosystems, both the founders are very open -minded and very like builder orientated, very low ego. And I think this is what makes people really like feel comfortable to innovate and build within it. And also feel good. know, most, most important thing is do people feel good? And if so, yeah. Citizen Web3 I want to ask you one last question before we jump into the blitz to wrap it up. It is related to communities. I was going to ask a little bit more about it, but I like to leave the devil's advocate things for the end so people get afraid. I'm joking. It's very easy. It is about communities. It's about Wallet Connect. Today, once again, this episode probably will be out in a month after it's been recorded. Kelly Ho ho. Citizen Web3 but it's August, it's August 2027 right now, the date of recording this. And the whole Pavel Durov thing just happened, the whole Telegram thing just happened. And apart from Telegram, we've seen all those crazy things in the UK, we've seen da -da. Now, both Wallet Connect, both IPFS, like you mentioned yourself, are pivotal technologies. And they are both about freedom of communication. Both Wallet Connect is about freedom of communications of machines and Web3. Kelly Mm. Citizen Web3 whether IPFS is about storage. I don't need to explain this, think. If you were to put your Wallet Connect hat on right now, and you said you're not that long with them, but still, how do you feel as somebody who's not just working in the industry, but working for a that is definitely privacy, sorry, not privacy, sorry, sorry, sorry, but is definitely freedom -orientated? Do you like, are you scared personally? I'm not talking about the founder, I'm about you. know, do you think that, you know, if this thing continues that we live in, you know, like, I don't want to go all black here, but yeah, I think you understand what I'm trying to ask. Kelly Mm. Kelly Yeah. Kelly Yeah, am I worried about the future of privacy, of decent? Citizen Web3 Well, are they going to come to you and say, hey, you're creating here a tool that is going to allow people to communicate and you don't moderate it, which is exactly like that, you know, so what's what's what would be here your feelings right that. Kelly Yeah. Kelly I mean, going back to the Pavel Durov case, I think there's a lot that I don't know about what happened there. It seems on the surface a lot of people I respect are worried. In saying that, don't really think the future, because it was France that detained him, I don't really believe in a future that's controlled by nations anymore. Okay, maybe in the short term, it's like a little bit scary, just saying like going forward, I don't really think that the world is moving in such a direction that this is not going to be, it shouldn't be an issue. Like it shouldn't be something that we need as technologists need to worry about because, you know, there's going to be enough people who see the vision or see the world as we do that. I think the nation states at least the ones who do stuff like this are going to be rendered not powerless, but irrelevant. don't think, I would never, for now, like I would never move to France ever. Like this is not a, unless they have like a massive change in government, like this is like, I wouldn't even go that really. I wouldn't step foot. wouldn't support, unless Vitalik said, Hey, you want to get ramen with me in Paris? Then maybe, but you know. Like we said about community, like every nation is also community. If you're going to do things that like I don't want to align with, then I'm not going to step foot in your territory. yeah, I don't know. I guess I'm not. Also because I'm quite location independent, there's not, I feel like I have a lot of flexibility and choice to also very important things and why I'm in this industry. So yeah, no, I don't think I'm worried. Bellagio's got us. Citizen Web3 Amen. No, I really want to say amen to this because like I definitely you're talking with definitely another person who doesn't believe in neither governments or other spaces. And I do think it's important to hear people's opinions about that, least in the industry. And I care about it deeply. But I definitely agree with you that it's not important and we should not. mean, everybody knew telegram problems for many years, especially if you're coming from somehow from Eastern Europe. Kelly Mm Kelly For sure. Citizen Web3 Let me jump quickly into the blitz with you and I promise I will stop annoying you after the blitz. So, three questions. They're a bit weird. You can answer fast or slow. It's up to you. I call it the blitz, but it doesn't mean it has to be without thinking. So, first question. Give me or one movie or one song or one book that has a positive influence on Kelly throughout her life. Kelly Okay. Citizen Web3 or at least in the last recent years. Kelly Whoa. Or, or, or. Okay. The recent years. holy. A song? Okay, well I know what song I want played at my funeral. gosh, Mexico. Funeral or wedding? Citizen Web3 MMM Citizen Web3 There's gotta be a song you hear and you're like, yay. Could be a song. I love it. Go on. Those guys are crazy. They're like already up for the funeral, for the wedding, for everything. Sorry, Kelly. Go on. Kelly I love, do you know, Khruangbin? There's a song called White Gloves by Khruangbin. I'm also gonna chuck in another, like, one book I read, like, I really studied this, like, my Bible is The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. And this book, like, I made really beautiful notes on it in high school or in, like, throughout uni. And that really stuck with me. It taught me, Citizen Web3 Okay. Citizen Web3 Okay. Kelly Don't be lazy, be productive, but also enjoy life. yeah, probably those two, combination of those two. Citizen Web3 Just a note for the listeners, guys and girls, everything me and Kelly mentioned, of course, you can find links in the show notes, books, songs, projects, people. So please do if you're interested, open the links and find the show notes. So last two questions, I promise they're going to get weirder. The next one is give me one motivational thing that gets Kelly every day out of bed, keeps on learning languages, keeps on... Building online communities and well, just enjoying life, wanting to eat food and taste it and yeah, just enjoy what's something motivational. Kelly like apart from food? Yeah. Holy shit. Okay, what gets me out of bed really? I don't... This is very broad, but just the prospect of building something. You every day you have... I don't know, like... Citizen Web3 It's good though eating, but if you have something else, can be something else. Kelly What gets me out of bed? Building, building stuff, building whatever it is, a strategy, a meme. Just like, I remember it like the deepest darkest times of my life. What got me through was just the fact that I can like make stuff and make people happy. Citizen Web3 I love it. Citizen Web3 It's, it's, I think seeing that reward flowing, you know, from when you make something, it's, it's really priceless. Last one, I promise. It's the weirdest one, but I promise it's the last one. Dead or alive, real or imaginary person, could be a cartoon character, could be a movie character, could be a writer, could be a developer, could be a relative, doesn't matter. Not a guru for Kelly, but a person or a made -up character who you aspire to. You don't like influence by them, you know? It's not like the Bible in your closet, because I don't believe in gurus like that. somebody or someone, doesn't matter if they're real or not, or if they're or not, that you aspire to and sometimes you think, okay, yeah, what would they do right now and how would they smile right now? Kelly wow. Yeah, probably Jesus Christ. like tri - I mean, sure, yeah. Big follower here. I used to be Catholic. Anyways, probably. I don't ever think about these things. It's quite hard. So maybe just the way that I approach life is like kicking ass like Trinity from The Matrix. Big fan. Citizen Web3 I thought you were serious, I'm sorry. I had to put a serious face on there and I was like, okay, okay, I can change, okay. Citizen Web3 Nice nice love it love it. I think it's the first I heard trinity mentioned, but I love it. This is awesome Hell yeah kelly. I want to thank you for the time finding the time to come on and to talk to me to have a laugh as well not just to talk completely serious and Yeah, thank you for coming on and for everybody for everybody also sorry who sorry to cut you but Kelly Big fan. Kelly Hell yeah. Kelly Thanks, Serge. Citizen Web3 It always happens. always happens. Okay, guys, girls, for everybody who listened to me and Kelly, thank you very much for joining in. Kelly, please don't just hang up. everybody else, see you next time. Bye, Kelly. Kelly Bye Serge, thank you so much for having me. Outro: This content was created by the citizen web3 validator if you enjoyed it please support us by delegating on citizenweb3.com/staking and help us create more educational content.