Jake Van Ness (00:00)
Alright, welcome everybody to episode five of CrevoCast. How you doing, Carl?

Carl Grivakis (00:06)
Pretty good, five already, huh?

Jake Van Ness (00:08)
I know, it's hard to believe we've been doing this for five episodes now. That's pretty cool. So, why don't you, you had something you wanted to bring up right away. Why don't you tell me about that?

Carl Grivakis (00:19)
Yeah, so I've been just pounding the pavement on trying to build content for myself, for sharing with the community on LinkedIn and Facebook and whatnot. And one of the things I'm trying to do is simplify ideas of graphic design for just the layman. This big push for accessibility is really just kind of the visual language we've learned either in school or on the job. And I wanted the...

that to really say, know, graphic design is about communication and that extends to accessibility. So I wrote, I used chat's help to gather my thoughts and I pulled together an article called Accessibility and Presentation Design. It's Just Good Design. I also included a downloadable asset, just a simple slide that kind of illustrated what the points were. You know, talking about hierarchy.

Contrast Layout where you have caption space at the bottom where it's clear. These are just simple design points We've known for 20 years or longer, you know But we've given it this name and this purpose called accessibility now what I'm happy about is the I

Jake Van Ness (01:28)
So

before you go any further, why don't you give us a definition of what accessibility is and how that relates to design and communication.

Carl Grivakis (01:38)
Sure. So accessibility is the ability for the viewer, either they're your learners, the audience, target audience, anyone that you're trying to share info with to access that info in a way that they can actually understand. So if you're running a YouTube channel,

YouTube has done it through captioning in their native language and tongue and that's all automated. If you have an audience that you're presenting to online, you want to have stuff that's accessible to some of the hearing impairments, the visual impairments. That's all about having the ability to have screen readers read your documents or having captioning be clear so that in speaking in a way that

the captioning can understand what's being spoken. Now captioning is getting really good about understanding accents and regional dialects and then translating it to the language of the viewer. So.

Jake Van Ness (02:36)
Unless

you make up words, I have found with working with this podcast that the word Crevo is not one that most people can understand as far as AI understanding it. That is probably the number one word I have to go in and fix when I'm doing the closed captioning for these videos, which is absolutely hilarious because I'm like, of course it doesn't recognize it. It's a word that we made up to make this podcast. So it's funny you say that. It is getting really good, but it doesn't understand made up words.

Carl Grivakis (03:02)
Right, just an aside, Cravo is just a mashup of creative conversations. So when you're thinking of Cravo, that's what it's been to be. But the idea of being accessible is so that the majority of your viewers, the overwhelming majority of your viewers can access your content without having to kind of go extra steps. So when you're doing graphic design, you you may want to certain fonts for readability.

Jake Van Ness (03:08)
Yep. Yep.

Carl Grivakis (03:30)
You want to choose high contrast. You want visual hierarchy. Accessibility can also be the idea of someone identifying with the content. So you want sensitivities to color or to the visuals, like the images. Maybe you just want a diverse group, or maybe you're working on a deck that is for a particular region, like Asia Pacific. You're going to want images that they can identify with, just so that it's not

you want the learning to be smooth or the viewership to be smooth and easy to relate to. So I was glad to see that the IAAP, the International Association of Accessibility Professionals, liked that article. that struck me as, I'm getting this in front of the right people. I noticed that they offer some certifications. My design, my...

Degree is in graphic design, not accessibility per se, but some of the, it's all about visual communication. And so I'm looking at them and seeing those certifications and I'm considering whether or not I should actually go get one.

Jake Van Ness (04:34)
Very cool. So it's funny what you're talking about. Like I have a client, a nonprofit that is specifically dealing with seniors, dealing with 55 plus individuals. And I think accessibility is beyond recognizing the end user. So it's like for us, for the website, for any of the print materials, any of the stuff we do for the Conklin Center, which is the organization I work with, we have to think about

older individuals having trouble reading smaller type. We need to, like you said, think about colors and contrast and things like that. But that's just looking at a target audience. That's a little different than accessibility because accessibility is more about inclusion of everyone. And so something that some people may not realize with me is that I'm actually hard of hearing and have a hearing impairment.

And so to me, closed caption is very, important to me when it comes to when I put content out. That's why I spend so much time on it with this podcast and with the things that we do. And that's why it's so funny that that word that we mashed up does not get recognized because I have to find it and all the closed caption and fix it. But today that's a lot easier than it used to be. But it is interesting how working with that nonprofit client and saying, okay, we need to think about those things.

Realistically, we should be thinking about those things all the time. And I think that's where people fall short as designers, is we think about the end user, the target audience. We don't think about who else might be included in that target audience that might want to view that stuff. It's really interesting what you're saying too, with accessibility dealing with inclusion as well. And having those images be images that include...

a certain type of people or a certain race or things like that that are important when you do design things. So it is interesting that accessibility has become such a big deal because it seems like it should be a no-brainer. But I know like anything, we need to have checks and balances in place and we need to make sure that we are looking into those things. It's awesome that you got recognized by that group and that you're getting some traction with that stuff. I know that you've been writing a bunch of different articles for LinkedIn.

And that's really cool to see you get that traction and see you get recognition. And then, I could see where you would look at that certification and say, hey, is that something that I want to do to really give myself credibility? Because that's what those certifications do is that shows a possible client or your existing client that, hey, I take this seriously and I take this to be important when I do my design work, whether that's in the e-learning space, the print space or the web space.

Carl Grivakis (06:51)
Thank you.

Mm-hmm.

Jake Van Ness (07:15)
I could definitely see where that would be beneficial for you to look into that.

Carl Grivakis (07:19)
Yeah, I just, we wanna make sure that we're not like that Richard Pryor movie with Richard Pryor and Gene Wilder, one's blind and one's deaf and they're just trying to communicate with each other. If you haven't seen that scene, look it up. I forget the name of the movie.

Jake Van Ness (07:29)
Yes, yes. We'll put a link to that. Yeah.

We'll have to look that up and we'll put a link to that. We'll also put a link to Carl's article in the show notes so you can check that out. We'll put a link to that organization. And I don't even remember how many letters you said that was for second there, but we'll put a link to that organization as well. And so that's great. I'm really glad to hear that you're getting some traction with that because that's always one of the things that I find with social media is sometimes it's like screaming into the void.

And the clients I work with, the people that I'm friends with, or other business people, we all feel that way. And it's funny because every once in a while you'll get somebody that you either run into on the street or you run into when you do a networking one-on-one on zoom or something. they're like, yeah, I read that. And you just want to reach through the screen or you want to reach across the room and you just want to shake them and be like, why didn't you like it or why didn't you comment? But it is always important to remember that people are seeing it.

even if they're not reacting to it or they're not commenting. So I'm glad that you actually got to see a really good visual cue that, somebody important got to see what you were working on. So that's pretty cool.

Carl Grivakis (08:36)
Thank

you. And I think that one thing to note is the importance of why we do stuff like this. Yes, accessibility is a normal goal for us as designers, but I'm also trying to advertise myself to a particular niche. I'm in this niche of graphic design for learning and for, you know, talent development companies. And if you're a graphic designer that wants to distinguish yourself,

you need to learn how to talk about the particular niche that you serve or the one that you wanna get into. And if that's the case, you can start writing these articles on LinkedIn very easily and then start posting your knowledge. It'll help elevate your clout within that field and also give you links back to your website.

Jake Van Ness (09:21)
think the other thing about doing stuff like that is it gets you to think about things. So it's like, you may have all this knowledge in your head and you may doing all this stuff in your head and you're like, hey, I know this, but sometimes there's little pieces that we forget that not everybody knows. And I think by writing these articles and by writing it, whether it's blog posts for your website or it's for LinkedIn or whatever you're doing, it really gets you to a chance to say, hey, what else do I know? What other topics could I talk about?

By writing one post, you usually can come up with a bunch of other stuff to think about and to write about. So I think it's really good that you're doing that because I think you're going to find that content becomes easier. And we'll go into something later, which is repurposing content. We'll go into that in later episode. But I think by writing long form, it makes repurposing so much easier down the road because now you've got that long piece to deal with. So that's awesome.

Carl Grivakis (10:12)
Right. Yeah.

So what have you been up to the last couple of weeks other than editing?

Jake Van Ness (10:21)
yes. That's funny. So, yes, I've been editing. I've been editing the last couple of podcasts, and I'm really excited that it's out now and we're putting it out and people are reacting to it. We're getting downloads. That's awesome. So this past week was interesting. On Thursday morning, I got a message from a friend of mine who is a web designer who referred me to a client.

And it was in the virtual production space and they were like, Hey, we have this pivot we need to make. We're supposed to have an in-person event, but we're pivoting and we're to do it virtually and we need your help. And I said, okay, I'll be glad to talk to her. so we got on a phone call and we're talking and it comes out. Now to remember this is on Thursday. It comes out and it's starting Monday. And of course I was like, okay. So this is like super last minute.

Carl Grivakis (11:12)
Mm-hmm.

Jake Van Ness (11:12)
The potential client was great. They were completely transparent about it. They're like, yes, this is a strange pivot we have to make because of some stuff that's happened. And she was funny because she was like, yeah, it reminds me of going back to 2020 when COVID hit and everybody had to make a pivot to be online quickly. And I said, yes, this does very much feel like the same conversation I had in like April or May of 2020 when everybody was panicking about taking everything online.

So we had the discussion and I decided, I'm like, okay, I'll put together a proposal for you. I'll get you that by noon. And so I reached out to some friends of mine. reached out to you, Carl. I reached out to my brother who is in a cybersecurity area and does a lot of proposals and stuff like that, and does a lot of last minute stuff. He said to me something that I thought was really, really important. And it was talking about the fact that this was a Rush project and how important it is.

to make sure that the client understands that you're responsible for only so much, especially if they don't give you time to test things, especially in virtual events or virtual training, you want time to test things. You need to test the audio, the video, the display of the side deck. You need to test that the platform's gonna work correctly the way you want it to. You need to make sure that lighting and backgrounds and clothing and all these things that

we normally discuss, I was not going to have time to discuss with the presenters and with this client. So he gave it to me. And briefly what it was, is it was like, I'm going to do this in good faith to the best of my ability. And so I was like, OK, that's great. But how do I write that out so that the client can really understand that and put that into my proposal?

And so let me read you what I came up with. And I'll be honest, I use Chat GPT to help me with this. I ran it through there a couple of times. I went back and forth with it to really see if I could understand. And then I kind of tweaked it from there. Again, it's a tool. Don't be afraid to use the tool. It's no different than using InDesign or using Photoshop. It's a tool. So just like Carl used it to help him brainstorm on how to write his article,

I helped it to make sure that my proposal was going to be clear and precise. And so here's what I actually came up with. It said rush timeline and best effort acknowledgement. Due to the expedient nature of this virtual event and the limited lead time for planning and preparation, all production services will be provided in good faith and on a best effort basis based on the information shared during our event discussions.

While every effort will be made to deliver a seamless, high-quality experience, factors such as presenter readiness, last-minute agenda adjustments, and technical variables may affect the final execution. Closed collaboration, clear communication, and the timely delivery of all event materials, run of show details, and presenter information will be essential to the overall success of the event. And to be honest, it's a CYA.

There's no way to put it any other way. It's a way for me to say, I'm willing to do this for you and I'm willing to work with you, but you do need to understand that you are breaking my protocols on how I typically deal with an event. So I put that in the proposal and I made sure that that was super clear. And so I really appreciate that my brother gave me that idea, that information, because he was right. You're doing everything you can.

And you don't want something to happen where something fails that's out of your control, and then all of sudden you're not getting paid. You just want to make it clear. So go ahead.

Carl Grivakis (14:58)
Right. You don't want them

to try and negotiate a lower rate just because of failure to deliver. But it does kind of because the risks are, you know, if you have a variety of presenters, they may not have tested their technology. They may be ignorant how to use it. You might be on a platform that's not your native platform. There's so much risk. But it does bring an idea to my mind where maybe you can have a

a one sheet about best practices. Just to get people familiar at least with the setup that they have to the microphone, the camera, the screen. So.

Jake Van Ness (15:30)
Absolutely.

Absolutely, I think that's a great idea and I have a little bit of one but I think I could definitely tweak that and make it more of a, hey, this is the first thing we need to discuss. Kind of like we have an agenda. Like we both have agendas that we send our clients to say, hey, you need to think about this. And I laughed the number of clients that are like, ooh, I didn't think about that part. And I'm like, well, how do you know if you're gonna be on time? How do you know you're gonna fit it into that one hour or 45 minute or whatever the name, the...

nature of the presentations. How do you know you're going to fit in there if you're not sitting there and breaking down how much time each section is going to take you? So yeah, having these tools is really important to give to our clients to hopefully give to the end user if we're not working with the end user to really make sure they're thinking about things.

Carl Grivakis (16:23)
You do have one such resource for covering that awkward silence at the beginning of each session, right? Have we shared that already?

Jake Van Ness (16:29)
Yes, I do.

I don't think we have. I actually have a PDF that I'll put in the show notes that is a PDF of icebreakers. So one of the biggest things that we recommend when we're working with our trainers is, hey, how do you get your participants comfortable? Many times the training is done in the same company, but sometimes they do public training and it may not be from the same company. So how do you get to...

get them be comfortable, how do you find out more information about them and how do you kind of break the ice? How do you really get things flowing in a presentation or sorry, in a training so that they feel comfortable with the trainer and also with other participants? So yeah, I have that tool and a lot of my trainers have really appreciated that because it's a quick list of like, hey, here's 25, so you're not doing the same one over and over again. Now what's interesting is a lot of my trainers will do multi-part.

trainings. So they may do two hours twice a week, four or four weeks to do eight sessions. And they use the icebreakers every time they get on and they use a different one every time because that again, that allows you to learn more about who the presenter or sorry, the participants are. And then that way they can learn about the trainer as well. Cause a lot of times the trainer will pipe up with their own answer to the question.

So yeah, I have that resource. I'll make sure I put it in the show notes so that people can get a hold of that. But you're right, I do need to come up with a one sheet that we can make sure we give to presenters, to trainers that says, hey, are you centered in the screen? Are you looking at the camera? Which I know I'm very bad at on this podcast. And we've talked about that. And where is your microphone? What is the clothing? Like you'll notice, Carl and I are wearing solid colors. The worst thing in the world. And you'll see it on TV, which always blows my mind that TV doesn't. People that wear stripes.

really thin stripes and it is like their shirt wiggles. It is the strangest thing in the world. So I've always said to my presenters like wear solid colors so you don't get that weird wiggle in your shirt that could be extremely distracting. it's those kinds of things that we work with trainers to make sure that they understand. So that's why going back to this clause was so important to me because I wasn't getting a chance to do that. And to be frank, that scared the hell out of me because I didn't know

what was going to happen and I didn't know what I was going to be able to control and what I wasn't going to be able to control. But again, the other thing I'll point out is that's why you work with a producer. By working with a producer, it helps you deal with those situations, whether it's planning in the beginning or dealing with it when it comes up during the presentation or during the training. That producer is trained on how to deal with crazy situations that come up.

And you and I have dealt with many of them in the years that we've been doing this. And we'll share stories as we go through this podcast of some of the crazy ones we've dealt with. But again, that's why that clause is super important. You should always be transparent with your clients. That's the other thing I wanted to bring up is being transparent and honest with your clients is going to be huge. If there is something you don't know how to do, tell them.

Don't play this game of, I'm going to figure it out. Be honest with them and say, hey, I think I can do this for you, but I just need a little bit of time to make sure that I understand the tool I'm using, or I understand the process that you're going to use. But be honest with them. Be transparent with them. Clients would much rather have that than have you pretend that you know how to do something and crash and burn. The quickest way to failure is to lie.

is to lie to your clients, lie to yourself, and say you can do something that you don't know how to do. That doesn't mean you can't learn as you go. So for example, I am not a huge StreamYard user, but I've had opportunities in the past to use that. And so they're like, OK, do you know it? And I'll be honest with them and say, no, I don't. I don't use it a lot. I'm not super familiar with it, but I feel like I could figure it out.

Can you give me 24 hours to go in and play with it? And I'll come back to you and let you know if I am comfortable with it or if I'm not. Now, most of the time, I end up being comfortable with something after I get a chance to use it. But again, I'm clear and I'm transparent and I'm honest with my client that, hey, this isn't my strong suit. Now, the other thing is the whole point of this podcast, collaboration. Maybe.

And actually I did this when I was trying to figure out StreamYard. I reached out to other people that I know that are in this space and I said, hey, do you know how to use this tool? What are some of the pitfalls that I need to watch out for? So I, and if it's something where I'm like, nah, I'm not comfortable with this. Hey, do you know how to use this tool? Is this a potential client that I can pass to you or is it something we can collaborate on?

and work together on to make sure that this delivers correctly. So again, it's about collaborating with each other. It's about working together and it's about helping each other out. But again, you gotta be transparent and you gotta be honest with your clients. I see it so many times where I see people fail because they're trying to be bigger than they are, trying to be smarter in a certain area than they necessarily are. And then they fall short and they fail and it hurts their reputation.

Carl Grivakis (21:26)
Mm-hmm.

Jake Van Ness (21:51)
That's the thing you need to realize is that if you lie and you fail, you will never see that client again. Where if you were honest and they admit, yes, maybe they're going to go, hey, you're not the person we want to work with because you don't know that tool. I'd much rather have that than fail and then find out they're going to go and say something to another client or they're going to put something out on social media about how badly we failed. Now again, failure, there are things that may happen that are out of your control.

but in your control is being transparent and being honest. Do you agree with me on that?

Carl Grivakis (22:26)
I do. And I love the CYA type clauses. I wrote in a response to an article about conflict on LinkedIn where your CYA as say you're doing brand design or visual design for a logo. The CYA can be, know, this whole process is a journey. Just because you don't finish the logo for your client, they've gone down the

steps of that journey, they may not actually be ready to launch. So you've helped them with some of the creative process. you should get paid for that. That's why we take deposits. I know time is short. Do we want to do a card?

Jake Van Ness (23:04)
Yep, let's do a card real quick so we can get you out of here so you can get you to meeting.

Alright, again, we are playing around with pod decks. These are really cool things that give you ideas for questions. There's topic cards, there's all kinds of stuff. We are doing Would You Rather, and this week we have got, my, I love these. Would You Rather Be Covered in Bees or Spiders?

he has to think about it.

Carl Grivakis (23:38)
One can give you honey, one you want to kill with fire.

Jake Van Ness (23:41)
You

Carl Grivakis (23:45)
I'm not allergic to either, but...

You know, I've seen more people covered in bees and not get stung. So the beekeepers, you know, that literally get covered in bees. think that I'd rather have that experience, but I want to know more about it first.

Jake Van Ness (24:04)
I love that answer because there are people that I see on like Instagram reels or TikTok and stuff that go up and they're removing bees from a house and all they're wearing is a netting around their face and if they're even wearing that and they're literally scooping these bees out of like behind a wall or something like that and they have no other protective gear on and I'm like you are freaking insane but I agree with you bees

Yes, they can sting you, but I think I just, I don't like spiders. There's just something about spiders and a thought of spiders being all over me. I would freak out. I think I would with bees too, but I think there's a slight chance I'd be a little calmer with bees. Probably not, but I agree with you. Bees can bring you honey.

Spiders need to die a fiery death as far as I'm concerned because they're evil. So I would agree with you on that. So, all right, guys, this is a little bit shorter episode, but that's because we are both busy, which we are definitely grateful for. But we are glad you got chance to join us today. Remember, if you're watching this on YouTube, please subscribe. Please hit that bell notification so you know when the next episode comes out. And then if you're listening to us on your podcast app.

We'd really appreciate if you could give us a rating and a review. We'd love to see that out there as well. Also, feel free to comment on YouTube. We're watching that to see what people are saying. And until next time, see you guys later.

Carl Grivakis (25:38)
Take care.