s2e1
James: [00:00:00] We are back everyone and welcome to coffee house blunders, season two, the Queen's gambit. We've never done this before. Um, but we are breaking down every single episode of the Queen's gambit, the international sensation taking you not only through the show because you can watch it, but I have my best friend in the entire world.
Danny wrench international master with me to break down every single step. And when Danny pitched this to me, I could not be more excited because one, I get to hear that smooth buttery voice yet again, in my eardrums. 
Danny: [00:00:45] Well, that's number one. Number two. Is, was there a second reason? 
James: [00:00:49] Uh, the second reason I would say is that it gave me a reason to stop watching.
Now we're in different points in the Queen's gambit. I was only a few episodes in you. Call me on the phone, missing me so much wanting to redo this podcast. I said, let's do it. I got so excited because, um, now I am, uh, rewatching every episode. And so are you to break down those moves and it's really fun.
Because I get to now learn through you. I have pages of notes about episode one openings alone, but I get to learn the like, is it real, like, is this realistic? Is it not realistic? What, what is she learning? What are you learning? What is the global community learning about Chaz and I, I have pages here. I am literally.
It's pausing, rewinding, pausing, rewinding, I guess that's why I'm excited about 
Danny: [00:01:37] it. You made, you made tons of notes. I made notes. We've got, we've got a spreadsheet here to, to list and eventually break down every, every single aspect that included X's and O's on the board. Of course, we're going to talk about the culture and everything, but it, but it's funny because you said that we, uh, Had this chance to do the Queen's gambit together.
And I remember there were times in our, you know, our, our first season or previous life doing coffee house plunders together where we, we naturally wanted to talk about, but there was a Marvel movie or, or something else coming out. Right. And we kept joking. Like, you know, we should maybe do do things where we break down.
A specific topic instead of just kind of shooting the breeze as besties. But so this, so this is going to be kind of that, right? This is going to be our, our, uh, real fo focused, um, coffee house blunders. And of course, knowing you and I, who knows what we're going to be talking about by the end of the, by the end of this particular podcast.
So, um, everyone can stay tuned for the twists and turns, but yeah, if you, if you haven't watched the Queen's gambit, go on the journey with us, I'm going to say that I'm gonna go out on a limb James and say that this is going to be the. The standard of breakdowns for the queen scam, but there was a lot of people talking about the Queens gambit right now.
If you miss the memo, I know you didn't write it. It's nuts. We, um, as of today, James, we crossed 3 million active users like daily right now on chess.com for the first time ever, which has just been nuts. It's the chess world is blowing up. It's it's obsessed with it, but. But you, and I really took the challenge of, Hey, let's, let's really dive into this and talk about how real it is, the whole culture, the con, you know, the environment, her life and times, um, and of course the chest itself.
So, but we are going to keep it super focused episode by episode, partly because I've seen the whole thing twice now. Um, and, and you're, but that's going to be the most fun part of it. So everyone should go on the journey with us. And, um, Oh man, I'm so excited. So you, you asked them questions and lead the way, and we're going to break this down, James and Danny style.
Yeah, that's 
James: [00:03:35] correct. You know, and, and I think the one thing, even before we get started here is some people may be brand new to the podcast and we are so happy that you are here. And our listeners that have been begging for new episodes season one is completely different than this season. Um, if you want to go, just listen to me and Danny talk about.
All sorts of fun. Chaz coffee and technology stuff. Go listen to season one. If you're here for the Queen's gambit, we are so excited. So please subscribe on your podcast app and tell your friends about this. You, I know you have friends, I know you out there. People listening have friends that have watched this show, let them know, and now people may not know us, Danny.
Um, and we're going to give two different perspectives. You know, when I go and watch you on, um, chess.com/tv or on Twitch, you have the. You have the chest experts up there, but we have different sides. I am a program manager. I'm a developer by day. I work over at a small 
Danny: [00:04:23] company, Batman by night. Batman 
James: [00:04:25] by night.
Yeah. I worked for a small company called Microsoft and, uh, I focused on mobile development, Danny and I are just long-time friends. Um, I'm a chess, uh, you know, I played chess growing up, uh, but I've never gotten farther than, you know, keeping my default rating and hovering and keep going down, you know, and just having fun casually.
But I know the, I know the moves. I know the basics, but you, Danny. You are not only the chief chess officer@chess.com, but you are an international master. And in fact, the youngest national master from Arizona 
Danny: [00:04:58] that's right. Yeah. You know what, it's funny. Cause I forgot. We should probably take a second to do exactly what you just did.
Right. If anyone's finding this because they were searching for stuff about the Queen's gambit and it's finding this for the first time, like James said, please, uh, Subscribe and yeah, stick around. We're real people. And as James introed himself, he's a real person doing real things at Microsoft. I'm a true the CCO, depending on who I'm talking to, maybe I call it chief content officer, but chess officer is so much sexier and, um, you know, really, you know, describe what actually is that it's a made up title, but just says, I, I kind of help guide the chess ship@chess.com and I am an international master who at some point.
Had big dreams of being maybe us and world champion. When I was, uh, uh, rising up and comer at one point I was, uh, one of the highest rate players in, in the U S under 21 and top 15, the U S and now, now I'm not quite there. I've been a chess kind of businessman for, for many, a moon now, but, um, I think that's going to be a fun part of what we talk about here.
Of course, I don't have direct experiences, uh, compared to. To the fictional Elizabeth Harman, Beth Harmon. But I think there's going to be a lot of just fun stories and breaking down, like, Hey, like, was that realistic to, how does that compare to your experience or experiences? You know? And I can't wait to just share my chess expertise.
So that's what this is going to be all about. 
James: [00:06:16] Yeah. And you're right. You know, coming in being an international master and knowing the things now, knowing that this show is fictional, right? Some people may not know that it is fiction, but it is fiction. Is there any. You know, we're not going to have any spoilers.
Cause I told Danny he can't spoil 
Danny: [00:06:31] any the episode. One only episode one only today, 
James: [00:06:34] but is there really any. Any similar stories out there, like Beth Harmon story, a vertical of anybody else in the Chessie and or is it purely 100% fiction? 
Danny: [00:06:46] So that's a great question. And I think it's, it's gotta be the first talking point about it, because even in the first episode, as the chest person watching, I got an immediate sense of, Oh, bleep.
They really did their homework here. This is going to be good. And there are a few things that. Copy that one of the story is immediately intriguing. You know? Um, we're gonna assume everyone, who's listening to this at this point. We're allowed to start talking about the episode, right? So spoiler alert, if you haven't seen episode one as of this moment of you, problem, 
James: [00:07:13] go time, go time.
Danny: [00:07:14] Go. So part of that is, is because. You know, the, you immediately got the sense that they knew what they were doing when, when she's talking to, uh, mr. Mr. Scheibel, for example, and all the testings, they did a very good job of mixing what I knew right away, because I knew that Beth Harmon was not a real person.
And this was, this was a fictional character knowing the chess world. So I knew that she was going to be fictional, and this was going to be a very interesting story, full of drama, but they mix in real stuff right away. They start talking about. You know, the 11 fish and the Knight org, they mentioned world champion names.
And, and as the show goes on, you'll hear even more of that, where they did a great job of like some of the chess characters she's saying, she's sorry, she's playing are, are, are fictional. They're made up. But they're also based very clearly on, you know, world champions of that time. Right. And so they did a really good job of mixing fiction with fact in, in the show.
I mean, they, you know, throughout, throughout it, they mentioned. You know, us champions, they mentioned world champions. They mentioned, like we said, the correct names of openings and, you know, set the tone that this is not going to be your average. Oh, let's just throw some chess pieces on the board and we don't even care that it's set up.
Right. No one notices that stuff anyway, Hollywood, come on. Right. You don't even have to get it right. Just throw pieces on there. And that was not what the show was going to be. Um, so I don't want to go too, which I feel like as we break down each episode, we should talk a little bit about the chess.
Specifically in that. And does that particular chest relate to something, you know, factual or is it based on something that happened based on an event? I can already tell you that several of the chess things we're going to talk about from episode one were, were not only real games, but, but great games and famous combinations.
It was, it was like, uh, they were constantly, you know, giving homage to, to the masters that came before Beth, you know? And so that part of it was just fascinating and. I would argue, it adds to the whole culture of the film. Cause James, you said, you said when watching it, like you asked me how realistic was the chest, but you already got a feeling.
Did that help you? As far as a viewer who wouldn't know that stuff kind of really feel like, Oh my God, this environment, like this whole sort of atmosphere they've said is very authentic and real. It feels that way, right from the outset. 
James: [00:09:23] It really does. I mean, I feel as though, because they were showing the chess board, not every time, but they often showed a lot of the openings.
They showed real chess on the board. Right. They had real situations. I've seen you do them. We'll talk about some of the situations that backout herself into very early in episode one, but I've seen you do it and I've seen other peoples do it. Um, but I like that they show the. Bored. Um, and I think that was something that I could follow along.
I went to chess.com/explorer, and I actually have in the show notes linked to the games that I could mimic in, in, in real life on the board. And that was fun because I could see that this is the Bishop's opening, that this is the, you know, the ready opening and they were, they said it and sure enough, they were not joking.
When I moved my night, um, to KB three, like I was like, and that, that is real, you know, and right. But let's talk. Let's step back. It opens up Paris 1967. Okay. Now, before we even talk about the events, I mean, what a banger of an opening by the way. But before we talk about that opening, let's talk about Paris 1967, Danny, what is the chest world in 1967?
We're not born yet. At least me and you were not born. I don't think. Um, so what is, what is that like? Where is chess in 1967, compared to where it is today? What are the names? 
Danny: [00:10:48] Yeah, it's very similar to, um, so they do it, they do a great job setting, setting the atmosphere, right then in that, uh, Okay. The scene itself would have banger of a, of an opening.
You, you leave you wondering, Oh my gosh, what is this girl got herself into? What was that crazy night before? But, so what I'll say is to answer this and the previous question you immediately start thinking, is this character going to be based around Bobby Fischer? Because the best chess player in the world.
In 1967, the reigning world champion at the time, uh, was Boris Boris Spassky. And so, uh,  is, uh, ultimately the person that Fisher challenged in 1972 and, and took the title from, uh, but. 1967 immediately rings true of the Soviet union's dominance of the chess world. Right? The USSR isn't even Russia yet. It's, it's every, it's every Soviet state of Eastern Europe and mother Russia, and they are the preeminent power.
Um, and have been for years, then you have, um, The fact that, you know, she's, she's woken up by this sort of hotel person and, and she walks through the chess scene. You already see that, you know, the name is of a, of a Russian person she's going to be playing. You don't even know yet the significance of that Everett opponent or how, or how she got there.
And we'll get to that later, but they, it sets a tone. Yeah, it's obviously a flair for the dramatics, right? There's, you know, there's whatever happened in the hotel night, I can say that it would be kind of rare that someone would go out of their way to wake up someone, but it isn't that rare to believe in a close tournament of all.
Let's say the world's elite players and someone doesn't show up that, that might've been the case. Like, honestly, like that that's not. Um, at first, when that happened to me, the chess player, Migos, Oh, come on. Where are we going here? No, one's going to wake you up. If you're late, your opponent starts your clock and they love every second of watching that clock tick away, because they're going to take your time.
But in this particular case, um, you know, you can definitely give them the benefit of the doubt that in, in a lead event like that, that would be a realistic thing. Um, like I said, you get the feeling right away that she's. Not quite in over her head, but clearly taking on an Epic opponent in, um, you know, in the, uh, in the person she's about to face.
Um, and if we're just talking what the chess world was about, Bobby Fischer was sort of all the rage rising from the, from the West to take on, um, the, the, the dominant superpowers of the, of the Soviet union, which were Spassky, they were Petrosian, they were, uh, caries. Um, they were, uh, Um, I, I can go, I need, I need to look up more names.
I'm about to slip my timelines, but basically there were so many players that he was challenging. Um, and, uh, that, that would be, that would be a really interesting timeline to compare to in terms of Fisher's experience. 
James: [00:13:27] So let's talk really quick here about just the very first few seconds. Um, Beth Beth Harman wakes up in late for a match.
Right. She's in her hotel room. We see, we see alcohol bottles as the chess pieces of, we see somebody in bed. Um, she's clearly right. She's, she's in a cold bath of water waking up, just, you know, all over the place. Um, now. Ease the chess world in 1967, up to this point, you know, to me, this is reminiscent of, uh, maybe some, some rock bands, rights, um, some big players, um, uh, actors that are just, uh, raging, you know, how realistic is it that we have professional chess players granted?
She is 19 years old at this point, what you find out and the very next scene, how realistic is it or is this, is this the world that I not know that the chess world got Hardy boys and party girls over there doing big things. 
Danny: [00:14:28] So first I want to correct myself and say that I mentioned all the players that Fischer would be taking on as he challenged the Soviet union.
Petrosian Spassky. Smith's love towel these guys. And by the way, so in, in 67, it actually was still Petrosian who would be defeated by Boris Foskey Spassky was world champion from 69 to 72. So just had to cry. As I said that I was like, wait a second. Spassky was the guy that Fisher beat. And that is in many ways who Beth Horman's main Weibel is based on, um, a lot of the people who've talked about it we'll get into that later, but, but it was Petrosian who was still world champion at 67 for the chefs, people who will listen to this and yell at me about it.
I corrected myself. You can't. Um, now, um, so. Yeah, actually, it's, it's obviously a very over the top scene in that, you know, she wakes up from up, she like wakes up as if she had just fallen asleep in the bath. Right. Like what, you know, so that that's a little extreme, there was someone in bed, you know, you don't even know who at this point.
Um, that was definitely quite the vendor, but what I can say is. Because the life of a chess professional leads and has led to just a ton of travel and a ton of time on, on the road and on your own, that's really not very unrealistic. And you and I talked beforehand, how PG 13, we want this show to get, we're not going to curse, but I'm going to share all the, all the realistic stories.
And I can say that. Yeah. I mean, um, drinking under age is actually a very, very common part of the chest culture. Um, You know, I believe I was offered my first drinks at a, at a, maybe even 15 years old. Um, and, uh, and not necessarily, um, I wasn't necessarily up for it. Right. But I, but I definitely dabbled in alcohol when I was in Russia at the age of 15.
Um, and I think that, so there are different cultures anyway, right? Mods. I mean, the us has a culture, um, you know, in a drinking age of 21 and by no means is anything I'm describing endorsing you know, that that's an issue where it should be changed. There are other countries that have 18 is the legal drinking age, but I would say that, you know, In the sixties and, uh, the, the culture would, would be much more liberal about this, right.
And, and much more open to it. And I would say the chess world in general can lead to quite, quite a bit of the rockstar lifestyle. I mean, there were many stories I've been told by, you know, my uncle, your mom, Alex, your Molinsky and many other, uh, former members of the Soviet union of, of how similar stories like that would be.
And then my own experiences as a, as a young teen. Just being around a, you know, a very kind of loose environment when you're on the road, on your own, in a hotel room with access to things. Things happen. So I'm just going to, I'm going to leave it out. Yeah. I think it's actually very realistic and people might be surprised how nondramatic that experience is before we even learn about, about the characters struggles with, you know, with alcohol and substance abuse that we're going to get into in this episode, right before you even learn about that, being a real struggle for her it's that was a real thing.
And that is not an uncommon scene that you would have people waking up. Walking through a hotel room months, and everyone looks at them and they're like, yeah, that guy was that guy. I saw that guy at 3:00 AM, still playing in the casino or that guy's clearly hung over. That guy showed up 20 minutes late.
His clock has been running clearly. He had a bit of a hard time getting out of bed is not, it was not an uncommon and is not an uncommon scene in the chess world. Really. 
James: [00:17:38] Yeah. And this was also again in Paris, right? In Paris, different culture. I took French. I learned about the French culture quite a bit.
You know, it's very common to have wine with dinner, have the kids, you know, things like that. Um, so that, that's also a different scene that my favorite part of this opening scene is that not only is she running late, she's getting dressed, but then she takes one of those mini bar, little vodka shots, and then she downs it.
And then leaves. That's my favorite part of it, of that scene, not everything else, but that was my favorite let's. So let's talk about that. She leaves, she runs on the elevator. She pulls herself together and she immediately is hit with those paparazzis. Basically, everyone's taking photos, doing all this stuff and she is late.
So before we talk about, um, the etiquette or showing up late, I want to focus in on something here that is really important. She sits down and she is surrounded by. Men, right. She is surrounded in a ween. I mean, I know, I can tell, like, you know, this in the 1960s, we learned about the, the, the sexism in, uh, it's apparent, right?
It is apparent in this right now. We've come a long ways and there's still more to be done in, in all of this. But in this time, 1960s, right? One, she is surrounded by men. She's continuously surrounded by. Male chess players, even in the first episode. Right. Even though she's way better than all of them.
Right. And, and they very much undermined her a lot. But in this time, in this, in this 1960s, where, where are women in chess? You you've said a lot of names and they've all been males. Where are women in chess in as? And what does that look like? Um, in the 1960s. 
Danny: [00:19:17] Yeah. So, I mean, There's no way to, to not, uh, to not say, you know, the overarching way to answer that is, is exactly what you said.
Women are. Um, not nearly as, uh, No active in chess, even nowadays. I mean, the, the, the disparity between men and women in chess is still, is still quite large. It's changing a lot at the Scholastic levels. Um, good friend of mine, Jen HSA, Hottie is somebody you think of as far as leading the way with women and chess.
And she, and I did a breakdown on YouTube of, of some of the chest stuff. She's actually someone who's been compared to whether whether any of Beth Harmon's character was based around someone like Jen, we'll get into that later, but, um, So there's, there's a lot of being a lot being done. And I think partly that just starts on, you know, at the, at the ground level of, of, of girls and it's something, Jen and I have talked to him about a lot.
I was on her podcast on the ladies ladies night, and we talked about how it wasn't even just shouts. It was, it was also math. Right. And science let's remember that while chess is the focus of this, there was a lot of, a lot still changing, just, just within our generation still, there's still a cultural hangover from a previous generation.
That's basically said like, Hey. Women don't get into like brain stuff like that. Like, like women don't do like high level math or they don't do high level science or, or in chess, chess would almost be like a forgotten kind of afterthought of that. Right. That was really, I mean, that was a realistic part of, I mean, even my wife, who's only in her mid thirties, but her mom remembers a lot specifically, specifically in this year, you know?
Hey, like, even if you were actively discouraged, you were certainly not encouraged right. As a young woman. And I think that, so there's definitely. That's that's a parent. And then you look around the environment. You clearly see she's sort of a fish, a fish out of water, sticks out like a sore thumb. Um, and, um, And yeah.
So where's it out with women in chefs? I mean, there were women, chess players later on, no spoilers, you, you may be promised later on, there is more of a direct homage to who was, um, one of the current, uh, women, world chess champions, and one of the greatest woman players of all time and one of the later episodes.
So they do a very good job of that. Like mentioning, you know, the real names and things, even if they make some mistakes. But overall they do. They do, they do nail it, right? She's she's an American, first of all, she's in, in Paris, she's playing a Russian opponent. It's in the sixties. This is the cold war is active and yes, she's a, a woman in a, in a male dominated world.
And, um, that is exactly what it would feel like. 
James: [00:21:34] And she's 19 and she's 19. She's young. Right, right. 
Danny: [00:21:36] Yeah. Yep. So, um, so I don't know if I answered it. Yeah. I mean, I think they do a good job depicting and throughout the whole series we'll get into of the different, um, you know, in this episode I can say, cause later on we were talking about it.
One of the things that happens later on which, you know, because it's only one episode, I'll give myself the freedom to bounce back a little bit, but we see that happen as she has flashbacks to when she was a little girl and, you know, she wins that first chess game against a guy we'll talk about. He gives her a doll and she kinda like.
Kind of smirks in is like, okay, right. Kind of thing. Like there's, they do a very good job. I think pointing out that people did not SPECT expect a young woman to be, um, becoming what she was clearly becoming at a very young age, which was a chess prodigy. I 
James: [00:22:15] agree. I agree. And we'll get to those points and all let's talk about something that I think fascinating.
You've, you've mentioned it a little bit before, but the running of the clock, right. In a future episode, she learns about this and how the clock works back and forth. So what happens here? You, um, I'm assuming that a, a match. A chess match starts at a specific time. Somebody is white and somebody is black chess piece.
How does that work? What is the etiquette here and how do they depict that in, in this type of scenario? Because this is obviously a big match. This is obviously a big match. 
Danny: [00:22:50] Yeah. They do a great job with that. Actually. I think other than what I said earlier, where, you know, would you actually be woken up by someone who's involved with the tournament?
It's possible. It's not, it's not probable. And depending on who your opponent was, um, They may not be okay that you did that. It's, it's actually, you know, sort of not fair to the opponent to go like, you know, get the other guy up, uh, other, other girl up and say, Hey, it's your move? Like what's going on.
Right. But I think in an elite event like this, I think that is something that could happen. And certainly friends would wake up friends if it was, if they really thought, Oh man, You know, my buddy Paul, over there he's totally hung over. I got to go wake him up, but you know, so some things like that would happen, but the etiquette, when she arrives that he kind of stands up a little bit, greets her, shakes, her hand.
That's exactly what would happen. Um, and then, you know, black would always start White's clock after a handshake. This is exactly how a term it would be played with the only, um, So in, in, in the episode, her clock is running, isn't it? Isn't it, her clock is running. Right? 
James: [00:23:45] I believe 
Danny: [00:23:45] so. And I think that he still greets her and shakes her hand.
So that's, that's exactly what it would be like. And even though the person who's late last time, because they were late, it is still typical that they should apologize. Right. Because even if they're losing time, you know, and you could argue, well, they've served their punishment. They don't have to apologize for anything.
It's very typical that they would say, Hey, I'm sorry, I'm late, you know, or, or just a quick, a quick kind of like, you know, Apology, I think in the modern era, you would probably get less apologies, but also in the modern era. Um, the one thing to point out is that it elite events. That's really not a thing because fee day, the governing body of the game, um, which is French for Fidelis SES, internationally owned the, the international jus Federation, um, is, um, Is very strict on being late.
In fact, you can be forfeited just for being late. So they've got, they've gotten more strict on that, that part of it. We're going to be doing this throughout every episode. We break down, not just talking about that era was that realistic, but then also. Is that still a thing, right? That's it's not as much of a thing now.
It is a thing in open tournaments. It is a thing in smaller, less world of tournament's that someone can be late and their clock would be running. They would shake hands and do a quick apology, just like Beth did and sit down at the highest levels of chess. Being late is just not a thing you see anymore.
In fact, very often they're required to be there 10 minutes early for the photos and things to take place. 
James: [00:25:11] Gotcha. So as chess has evolved and has there's more coverage and there's more sort of logistics around it, right. Sort of clamped down a lot, which makes sense in general. Gotcha. Yep. So, so this is where it ends there.
These two individuals that are staring down at each other, and then we see a flashback. We go back. 10 years to when Beth Harman is nine and there's a car crash death of her mother at the time here. And, um, she is being driven, um, uh, to a, um, not to, I wouldn't say a home, but to a girls' orphanage and there, and this is in Kentucky and that's where it takes place.
That's where she was born at. If you go through and you're watching on Netflix. You can pause, um, specifically at the point where mrs. Uh, Deardorff um, is flipping through the pages and you can see the dates on there. You can read an article about the crash, everything about Elizabeth, as she likes to be called a bath, not Lizzie.
So there's three names for Beth Harman here that we get introduced to early on, but she's taken to the. Method when home, I don't know if I'm pronouncing it right, but it's Matthew in home for girls and there's 21 girls total here and she's introduced. So you're, you're taken through this dramatic events early on.
There are dramatic, uh, series of events when she is introduced to Jolene my favorite character, by the way, love Jolene. Jolene's great. Um, Jolene asked her if both of her parents are dead and she says, yes, now I of course have not gotten further. But at that point we only see flashbacks of her father leaving.
And of course her mother also having substance abuse, by the way. Um, as we see going down and, um, she's introduced into this world as a dramatic change. She had a dark past history, and now she's, she's here in this brand new world. Right. And, and, and this is to me, I just I'll talk about just the show as an opening, but not only did those first few minutes suck me in.
I now. Not only care about 19 year old bath, but I want to know everything from, from zero to 90. I want to know all those years. And I thought this was a brilliant, just capturing cinematography storytelling, arch of really sucking me in to caring so much in. So in so few minutes I care so much about this, this person at 19, and now this person at nine, I just thought it was brilliant.
Danny: [00:27:43] I, I couldn't agree more. And obviously we're here to. You know, or I guess my role, if I'm, if I'm cap, uh, if I'm typecasting myself as here to talk about the chats, but I'll just say too, I'm, uh, you know, talking about the, you know, being a fan, like I completely agree. It was like so well done. And when did they digressing a little bit?
When did they just start nailing it with this flashback approach? Cause I feel like what you're describing is just the way to like, it's just like, you see this like real time you think it's real time, you don't even know for sure, but you see this super interesting, you know, What the bleep happened the night before ending?
Who is this person? Oh my gosh. It's a big deal of the paparazzi. And then you go back and see. She, you know, her mother dies in a car crash, she's in an orphanage. I mean, just amazing the way that they, you know, develop character development by basically keeping you on the edge of your seat. Right. So anyway, just, I, I agree.
It was awesome. Um, 
James: [00:28:31] it's a classic Tarantino 
Danny: [00:28:32] classic guaranteed, or as they say, right, I would say, you know, loss, but let's not talk about loss, John Locke. I still haven't forgiven you, Joe luck. Okay. We move on. Um, so we've got, um, you know, we have to go back to the Island, Jack, uh, the, the, so you've got the flashback going on and, um, You know.
Yeah. I mean, I think that, what is it, what is it? They say every hero was born out of a childhood trauma, or at least a, you know, Dwight would say that from the office, you get, you get the feeling right away that regardless of the present time who she became clearly, this girl has a lot of, a lot of things going on in her past.
Um, like you said, she mentioned that both her parents are dead at this time. And I won't say anything about the future. Like. You know, you don't know for sure that that's true. Maybe she's just saying that because she's a heartbroken little girl, right. Who just lost her mom. And one of her only memories of her dad, which we've seen was basically the dad saying like, Hey, if I leave, I'm not coming back.
Right. That's the memory she has from the, from the trailer that they were in. And so you're, you know, you're instantly like heartbroken and infatuated and just like invested in this little girl. And, uh, you kinda know there's a future clearly, or you wouldn't, you know, you wouldn't have seen what you saw, but, um, I mean, there's not even any chest to talk about here yet.
Right. It was just like, Oh, okay. Yeah. You know, there's this, there's this incredible person on the other end or, or at least a person who reached the highest levels of something. And now we see that there's, there's a lot, a lot to her. Right. So just, it was awesome. 
James: [00:29:53] And you start to see here, the, a few things, there's two important pieces here.
You start to see the addiction. Come in. You start to see that mr. Ferguson, I don't know if he's a doctor necessarily, or maybe the quarterly I'm not going to, I don't really know exactly what he is, but he's giving them red and green pills, vitamins, and what he says, um, You know, are more of chill pills, basically tranquilizers that they're giving out very common apparently in this era, 
Danny: [00:30:19] which is super messed up.
Right. And apparently I did some research. That was a, that was a thing like an orphanages and, you know, and a way to like, keep the masses, keep the herds in line. 
James: [00:30:29] Yeah, that was messed up. Yeah, 
Danny: [00:30:31] it was, it was super interesting. 
James: [00:30:32] Yeah. But you see immediately though, she's in class, she's in a math class and you mentioned it earlier, right?
We talk about math and science and how that leads chess. I know me as a developer, math is one of my favorite categories in school. I love mathematics. I love the logic behind it. We see immediately Beth coming into classroom and crushing mathematics. She has the, everyone is working on their examine on their tests and the teacher comes over to her.
And she was like, what are you doing? You're not doing anything. And she's like, I'm done, um, immediate. Right. And this is a beginning to understand that this child not only had this dramatic past, but you can start to see that genius inside. 
Danny: [00:31:11] Yeah, exactly. And there's, at this point, they've showed the scene of the, um, The early, early stuff she was doing with the dad.
Right. I'm trying to, okay. Yeah. Forgive. If I say that, I I've literally, I've seen it twice, but I promise James coming in here pretending I don't want to ever talk about something. That's probably another episode. So as I say that, I'm like, wait, was that episode too? Or, sorry, go ahead. 
James: [00:31:33] So I think that the only thing that you've seen with her dad this much is that her dad, um, comes to like the, the, the trailer area where they're at.
She's trying to get. Uh, Elizabeth, as he calls her Lizzy as he calls her and, and her mom to let him in so they can talk. Her mom says no, and her dad drives away. That's the only thing that we have seen up until this point. 
Danny: [00:31:56] Okay. Okay. So you see that she's great at math and you know, you don't totally know why yet, but yeah.
So you've got this, you know, like you said, you've got this genius, a chess player with a combined with the trauma and that's the first scene that they have to give her something to do, because she's clearly, like we keep saying she's clearly different. Right. And, you know, Regardless of the world. She eventually goes into this male dominant and she stands out at this point.
She's already standing out at the girl's orphanage and that's when the teacher first censored, Hey, go do something, go, go stamp the erasers. Right? 
James: [00:32:25] Yep. I remember doing that as a kid myself, so it's a whole thing. So she goes down into the basement area, which is where the janitor, um, mr. Scheibel is at. And she gets a glimpse at her first chess board.
It's a beautiful chess board by the way. Beautiful, beautiful wood pieces that, um, mr. Mr. Scheibel is playing himself. Um, and she gets a glimpse at, and I, you know, before we get into the chest that she eventually ends up playing is Danny, what was your first glimpse of a child? 
Danny: [00:32:54] Ah, okay. Um, so there's two, there's two versions of this.
The first version is I was actually six and a friend had one of those red and black. I keep wanting to say Nabisco, but Nabisco was like a cookie company, right? Like, what is the, what was the rhythm black, like chef said, they come with checkers and chess and like you flip it over and it's like Chinese checkers.
Yeah. 
James: [00:33:23] I know. I used to have the. The ones with magnets. So you'd put the pieces inside. It would clamshell up and you would open it. All the pieces would fall everywhere and then you'd have to try to find them. And you're like, where'd my queen go? 
Danny: [00:33:32] So my friend had a. One of those, just like a little cardboard you fold in half, it's running black plastic, you know, very, very cheap, tiny chest pieces that literally comes with checkers and other things.
Right. So that was the first time I was exposed to chess. But I have to, I say that just because you asked me the question, you know, tell the full story honestly, but I, it really, we didn't even play legal chest that day. We were like six, neither one of us really knew what we were doing. I'm pretty sure we pretty sure he beat me, but he was like making a rules, you know?
Um, So the real story is I learned when I was nine. It was the summer of 95. Before I turned 10 in, in October and my grandfather had, had kind of had a mini stroke, like not bad, but basically he was, he was kind of being held up and my brother and I started, uh, spending time with him. It was like a requirement, like I'll spend time with grandpa, but at the time in the summer of 95 was when there was a world championship match going on, actually between Kasparov and a non in New York.
And so that was sort of the rage and then not long after, right around that time, searching for Bobby Fischer, the movie came out and, um, or it came out like on HBO. Maybe it was even in theaters the year before, but it came out where we were able to see it. And so my first real memory of Chestnut is this wooden chess set that my grandpa had in his room with some chess books there and a little bit of like him explaining some stuff and getting to know a little bit of the game from him and then seeing.
Searching for Bobby Fischer on HBO. It was like serendipity in terms of the timing. Right? Um, it, it was, it was a perfect storm of, of peaking my interest and, um, Really, I became obsessed with it. And then for my birthday in October, I went to my first chess tournament with my brother and my grandpa. Um, and I lost every game by the way.
And Dallas went four out of five and I hated just literally, um, because I was like, this is the worst. Right. But my grandpa claims that even then, even with that result, like he saw a different look in my eyes when I looked at chess than Dallas. And, and that's what, that's his story. But, um, you know, I remember that was my.
So a little more than my first chess board, but that's kind of the full, quick of how I got started. 
James: [00:35:46] I like it. And in fact, you know, when Beth sees this chessboard, she, Lee starts to dream and think about Chelsea seeing as she's playing it in her head, a continuation here. And she goes down for the second time and she goes to mr.
Scheibel that she wants to play this year. Already knows how some of the pieces move. Right. And, and she, he lets her play against them. Now. One thing that is significant here is that we noticed that mr. Scheibel always plays white in the beginning, which white plays the first move. Any significance there as far as I'm a brand new person to chess.
Is that a good way to learn that you are always on the defense or you're making the second move? Not the first move. 
Danny: [00:36:26] I don't, I don't know. I feel like at that point it was more like, cause let's remember the, the way that goes down is she asked to play and he's like, no. Right. She has to play. And he's like, no.
And at some point it's like, she's not going away. Maybe cause she's crushing her math. And she kind of says. Hey, I know how the pieces move. And he basically said, I don't care, but as she's walking away, he goes, all right, wait, show me, do you really know? And so she, she kind of explains in a, in a really cute way and accurate way where like just a little kid kind of explaining it.
This one goes like this. Right. And, and, um, and so I think him taking white and kind of. You know, beating her very quickly, right. That first chess game is, is the scholar's mate. Right. We have that. I'm pretty sure. Yeah. We've we, James and I have done our research here, everybody. Yeah. Um, it's the scholar's mate, that's the first full chess game at 22 minutes and 21 seconds of episode one.
And, um, I think it's more, it was more that he was kind of punishing her and I don't even know that it wasn't necessarily sexism in him as a coach, but I think it was like, you know, Young kids. Don't just like, you know, disrespect someone and demand a play. But certainly like young girls, like starting to was, it would be very uncommon.
Like, and I think he was like, kinda like, all right, I'm gonna, I'm going to kick, I'm going to kick her butt a little bit with white. And he kinda like was making her sort of like, what is that? You know? The, the making her kind of, you know, prove her worth. So to speak before, before we get to that and the next several chess games they play, there's the one where, and I, I want to be European on this cause there's the next one is the one where he traps her queen and kind of forces her to resign.
What was your thought about that? As someone who doesn't know chess. 
James: [00:38:01] Yeah, this is very fascinating because I think you're right. I think that mr. Scheibel he wanted to deter her from ever bothering him again. He's a simple guy. He wants to go in. He wants to destroy this. Child's hope of understanding this game.
Right. Beth, doesn't give up right. And to be honest with you the first time I play chess, I can't, I can not tell you if I got scholars made it, but I feel as though I 
Danny: [00:38:25] do, right. A lot of people feel that way. 
James: [00:38:28] So the first one King's pawn, opening comes out and you match that. You match that. Um, Bishop comes out now we're in a Bishop's opening.
We have this in the show notes below, you can follow along with us. Um, you know, uh, Knight comes out. Queen comes out from mr. Um, Scheibel and, and of course you're just kinda, you don't know what you're doing. You're like here, my little horse, he can move over here and within four moves, um, unfortunately for, uh, for bath, the Bishop is, is, is.
Backing the queen and there is nothing that you can do. The queen has moved over to F seven, right, right, right. Side-by-side that, that poor black King in front of the Bishop. And there's nothing you can do it's game over. And I swear to you not, uh, I believe that that was the very first thing that I, how I was introduced to chess was getting destroyed.
I think it's almost tradition at this point, if you're. Yeah, I was, I was in school. We had like a little chess club. Um, I was out in Mississippi at the time and I think I sat down day one and, and, and it was, it was something very similar to it. 
Danny: [00:39:34] Well, this may surprise you, I, uh, may or maybe not just because of the, um, the international master.
Right. But believe it or not, it was the same exact thing for me. I remember getting scholars made it, not only once, but actually multiple times, like before I got it, like, because there's. If, you know, we don't want to get too chest specific here, but there's a couple different ways of scholars make it happen.
The one shown in the show is with the queen on , which is, um, queen to King's Knight, Bishop three for using descriptive notation. But there's other ways too, where the queen comes to age five and can kind of backdoor different defensive methods. So before we get into that, I'll just say that you're not alone in that.
And I remember. Not only that, but as I tried, once I got obsessed with the game after playing with my grandpa and seems to be searching for Bobby Fischer. I put a tone with my stepdad who was awesome to play with me. And I. Sometimes forget how much credit he should get for it. Sorry, just random by aggression into personal, personal life there.
I actually, I actually spend a lot of time playing him and I remember it took a long time to be Dennis who was my stepdad without his queen. He was actually a pretty decent player. And that was one of my first real challenges. So there was the don't get scholars made it, then it was now can I win without the queen?
And those were a couple of stepping stones, not just for. You know, players like you like yourself, James, like learning in a club. But I think anyone, I mean, that's, that's kind of a coming of age, right? Everyone has to get and sorry, real quick Nash. The only few Chester was I've taken him to my oldest son, everybody.
Uh, he, he remembers that he tells me the story all the time that he got bored. Once he started playing players who were good enough to stop the form of chocolate. And then he was like, I'm not going to do this anymore. This is too hard. And I'm like, okay, great. So anyway, sorry, go ahead. 
James: [00:41:08] It's true. You know, I think that, that, that is, that is the point where you say I'm either.
I want to know where I went wrong. How do I self correct this? Which is what Beth did. She goes back. She learns about it. She comes back in. Makes different moves. She's learning about where the, where the made happen, where she'd miss missteps. And we go into game two, right? We go into game two. This is a, uh, opening, a French defense that opens up here, um, a little bit different, right?
So she immediately decides she's going to take, um, her or her. Um, Pawn in front of her, her King move it just one instead of two. Now we're in a French defense and this is the next thing that, I'm pretty sure I did by the way, which is you start playing and you're like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I know what I did wrong.
So now I'm going to start leaning on the left side of my board, right on my King side. And I'm going to start moving some pieces, right? I'm just going to start setting up a little defense that Queen's not coming in. I see what they're doing. And you bring your queen out. So she brings her queen out in the third move, um, queen to, yep.
I don't know, whatever Bishop queen F six. There we go. Whatever my Explorer showing me here, she brings it out and she makes that traditional move, which is she, she kind of saw that the, the. That the Bishop was backing the white queen in game. One of the scholars made it just, he just strides to do the same here and, um, runs into a trap, which is, you know, which is, um, toying with her, which is, Hey, there's a Bishop hanging out.
And your queen can take and do you let your queen disappear? And she does, 
Danny: [00:42:44] by the way, everyone. And I know James mentioned this, but I have to say again, he, he joked in the beginning that he's like the casual chess player. Doesn't know he, a James actually created these from just watching it live and created the, the links you have here below the podcast to go to the, the Explorer, the analysis board.
And she'll start, come and look at it. So first I just have to give you props for that because that's your description of it is like, Is perfect. And actually, if anyone followed along the moves to James linger back up the podcast to how he just described it, it's really good. And I gotta be honest. I didn't even, I didn't notice how well.
The story development of her chess happened right there in two. And you just described it like that. So shame on me, but it's actually a really good point. And maybe a chess player at, at your, at your level actually saw it more clearly than I did, which is, Hey, she reacted the way she did with  instead of  and bringing the queen out because she had been scholared made it.
Right. So she, she, she adjusts and then she gets her queen trap. And I admit, I admit sometimes it's funny. I'm. Hearing on behalf of all the advanced chess players. Sometimes we're a little bit too critical for our own good, where, like I admit, sometimes I'm watching these scenes and we've seen chess screwed up so many times that I'm like always looking at the board with a little bit of more of an abstract mindset.
I'm like, all right, while they're moving the piece, I'm looking at each one, is it a white square? I'm looking at the King and queen, did they actually set up the board? Right. Right. I'm actually looking at, I'm always looking at these things to be critical. But the way you described that is, is a great sort of story of a chess player who loses one way.
And it shows her brilliance as a young person, she immediately adjusts and make sure she's not going to lose that way, but in the process gets requeen trapped. And then, and then she's told by her, you know, de facto mentor here to resign, right. And that's a. That's a big moment in terms of chess, etiquette, in terms of the way that that would be handled.
Um, I know that's a good point 
James: [00:44:34] because she's not, she's not made it at this point, right. She loses her queen early on, and if you're playing a normal game, how I was. That, um, individual will let you lose. Um, then you'll continue on. You'll have lost your queen within the first five moves, right? Because when, when you're, when she's pinned down here and you said the queen is trapped, which means at this point, there is no way for her to keep the queen no matter where she moves on the board back forward down, that doesn't matter that queen is gone.
So in her mind, she's calculating. And she says, my queen is gone. What do I do? Well, I am at least going to get a piece out of this. Right? That's in her mind. She's like, no matter what, if she's looking at the board, there's, there's two things. She's like, I'm going to get that piece and not seeing that the night is ready to take her, but I'm imagining in her mind, she's calculated that she's made a mistake.
And the only thing that she can do is take the piece. But what Danny. Should she have done or is it just over at that? Nothing that can be done. 
Danny: [00:45:30] Cause she does the right thing. She loses the queen, but then, but then he's like, no, no, no. He says no child at this point you've resigned. Right. And there's a lot of like chess, like you said, at, at lower levels of chess where, especially if it's beginner versus beginner, Nobody would ever resign and frankly rightfully so, because there's a chance the other guy's going to blunder right back and it's going to be a game of back and forth wonders and, you know, last blender loses kind of thing.
Right. And, and I, and that's okay. Right. That's part of learning the game and, and I think she's like, she's like, all right, well, I, you know, I've lost my queen, but I'm going to do this. And he's like, no, at this, you know, you're playing like your master, your mentor, if you're this down, like the appropriate move and the respectful move is actually to resign.
And this is a. This is, you know, again, the reason I asked you a few minutes ago is I wanted to know your interpretation of that, because like you said, it as a beginner, you would never resign, but like, how does the, how does the non chef's experience world review, you know, view resigning? Like, is it, does it seem like, because here's the way a lot of people talk about it in terms of sports analogy, they say never quit, right?
Never surrender, but chess. Isn't totally a game like that. There's a, there's a mathematical element to chess that is very black and white and. In theory. I say, I use this analogy a lot. I use it again. Once you're losing it chess, in theory, you should always lose because, because there's the, there's the element of, um, you're not just losing, but also you have less of an ability to come back in.
Like, like I say, like in basketball, dude, you're down by 25, but you're not also panelized by having to play with four men and a 12 foot rim. Right. There's no, there's no actual change to the playing field when you're losing. So in theory effort, right. Effort, and will, could always come back because the playing field is still level.
You're just currently losing, whereas chess. There's a big concept here. And the reason that's important is like a chess coach is I always try to get kids to embrace this because it's like, look, if you follow these things, you will, you will be able to win with the smallest of advantages because once you're winning.
In theory, your opponent can get up and Gary Kasparov can sit down and if you do the right things, you should still win. Once you're winning. It's a mathematical like. Um, and, and again, obviously I'm over-exaggerating, and certainly there are, there are comebacks, there are times when someone's losing and they blunder and blow it, you know, or winning, and they lose it at the highest levels.
But overall, that was kind of the level of, of lesson she was giving her. It's like, look, you're losing, you're lost. Right. Don't disrespect the game by pretending this is still a fight. And that is a, that is like a thing it's sort of an unwritten rule of chess. Um, and I'm always curious how people that don't play chess.
Think about 
James: [00:48:08] that. It's fascinating because you see again, this episode has a lot of foreshadowing into, in this case where she learns about forfeiting when right? No one had been forfeited before she forfeits. We see foreshadowing into all of her future chess matches that she has. Everyone. She plays against forfeits.
They knock the King over. And honestly, I see less forfeiting when I play, when I'm watching the U on, on Twitch or on chess.com/tv or other matches, I usually see them get to the end. So I'm actually fascinated. How often do people forfeit versus just getting a mate in this, 
Danny: [00:48:44] the higher levels you get, the more resigning and like for fitting is, is, is common than, than checkmate.
Now what's funny is the exception of that is because you're, you're talking about the experience of watching, you know, the most game of fight chess has ever been in the world is the era of we're living in the generation of as in e-sports yeses, on Twitch yeses right now. I mean, if we go there, the chess category, if we were to go there in real time, I'm sure it has.
You know, tens of thousands of live viewers, right. And those are a little bit different experiences, you know, because the online game, I think lends itself a little bit more to, to other craziness, for example, because the clock is so fast and online games are played like bullets. Yes. In blitz, it's much more common that even the showing players will play it out to mate, because there's always a chance they could beat the person on time.
Right. And that is one element that they really depict well of this particular era. And I, I will, I'll get, I'll get into that as the show goes on. I don't want to talk about episode six where this is a really great topic, but one of the things that happens at this era, James was like, time was not the same element that it is now.
It was a completely different game. Like when, when they're playing with just her, mr. , there's not even a clock they're using yet. Right. I mean, there's the scene, you know? Well, okay. Nevermind. Later on when she plays her first Chesterman even learns what a clock is right. In a later episode. So what I'm getting to is.
The reason you see more checkmate now is because the game itself has evolved to where it's more comparable to a sport and video game than it's ever been because of the online element we have, where even if Hikaru is kicking my ass, so to speak. Sorry, I can say that that's PG PG kids. I can kick him out, but I'm allowed to play it out because I might beat them on time.
Right. He might, he might lose on time before he checked me to me. So even the highest level guy will make Hikaru prove it or Magnus prove it because of that element. So what I'm getting to is you're not wrong, that your perception is that you feel like you see less forfeits, but I will say at, at the high levels of over the board, chess, classical elite chess, and certainly in this era, it is a hundred percent correct to depict it that way and resigning and forfeiting a game.
When your opponent has you beat is not only the common thing to do. It's the ethical thing to do. And frankly, because these, these events were very much a marathon. They were two weeks events with Mo with sometimes, you know, multiple games a day, but even one game a day can be grueling. And so if you're losing and actually behooves you to resign and save your energy, it's a marathon, not a sprint.
Right? So I think that's one thing I tried to clarify to people that makes chess different than other sports that you're not throwing in the towel. You're not a quitter. If you're recognizing that this is a two week event. This particular game is over. I will resign and save my best energy levels for the next day.
James: [00:51:19] Gotcha. Yeah, that makes sense. And it makes sense to try to look at how like the game has changed in how while playing chess online has changed dramatically, right? There was no online chess in this era. Now let's continue on here because it gets real intense. We don't actually know how many games they have played to this point.
We assume that game three, she finally beats mr. Scheibel and mr. Scheibel says. It's time for you, you know, you need to learn the Sicilian defense. So this was the first opening he shows or this. Um, I want to talk about notation, but first I want to talk about what is the significance of saying, Hey, listen, Sicilian defense.
This is your first opening that you need to learn about it. It is not the first opening that I should learn. 
Danny: [00:52:01] Well, so first you're totally right. It is the game three that she wins first. And that's even, that's at the 29 minute Mark. The combination is a, is a good one. Um, and yeah, so then, then she talked to the Sicilian, the significance of that is that okay.
It actually is again, very good storytelling and character development of who and, and the type of chess player she was going to be, which is the Sicilian defense. So to answer both of your questions in one James one, it's not necessarily the opening, but the first beginner should learn, but it's actually, at this point, she's not a beginner anymore.
She just got her first scalp of mr. Scheibel. Right? And he's recognizing the type of player she's becoming. And so he's teaching her the Sicilian. This is silly and defense is one of the most aggressive openings. So for those who are. Listening and don't know she has openings as well. This is Cillian.
Defense has been championed by Bobby Fischer. In fact, it was Bobby Fischer's favor. This is another very early sort of, um, no idea that this character is going to be subtly based around the challenges of, you know, the greatest American player of all time. Right. Bobby Fisher. Um, this is silly defense was Fisher's favorite.
It's later been championed by many of the most aggressive chess players in history. Gary Kasparov comes to mind, right. Um, And so to answer your question, the Sicilian is actually not something that most beginners learn. Well, most beginners learn was kind of what she was doing and she was playing the King's pawn game.
Then he, he gets beat for the first time and he's like, okay, okay, little girl. It's time for you to learn the Sicilian. I see what kind of beast you're going to become. And you're going to be playing aggressive chess openings now. So that that's really what it is. No, and 
James: [00:53:31] we don't really get to see exactly best first when I rebounded went back and forth, there was a few pieces, um, that I could and move that I could make.
Danny: [00:53:42] Yeah. You don't really get to see it on the board. Yeah. 
James: [00:53:44] Yeah. You didn't get to see it now you get to see the mate, I believe. Is there any significance that you could see from your high level analyzing the millions of games that you have? Um, is there anything that you saw from that or is it just, we don't get enough 
Danny: [00:53:57] the later game.
We're at the 33 minute Mark where she plays D five mate and checkmates him. Is 
James: [00:54:02] that between the two, the best first win. And then that one, 
Danny: [00:54:04] so, right. There's this? Well, the significance is, I think it's the, it's the evolution of her character. She's getting she's now she's now like better, right then mr.
Shiloh. Right? And so that's a, that's a big one. Um, the, the D five checkmate, which for those who are, again, going along this journey with us, we hope you are as at the 33 minute Mark. And that's actually a famous game, uh, by Greco who is a famous, a famous chess player. Um, From way back in the day. And we'll say that as we get into later episodes, I can already tell you that, you know, we, I mean, if you've read anything about it, you know, that they had a great job with consultants, they had Proust Pando Feeney.
Who's a good friend of mine. He was the famous chess coach of Bobby Fischer. I'm sorry, Josh. Waitzkin. And, um, and did commentary for the Bobby Fisher match back in 72. But Bruce has also, he consulted on the movie searching for Bobby Fischer, um, with Lawrence Fishburne and Ben Kingsley and the, you know, the, you know, which probably until this, I would argue Bob surgery for Bobby Fischer has been sort of the golden standard, um, until this series.
So they do a great job and that  made. I would say the significance as far as the, the episode is really just that we're clearly seeing she's now beating him, at least as far as the games they're, they're letting us see the board more than he's beating her. And that is a, the first sign for me that they did a very good job.
Um, you know, constantly throwing these shout outs to incredible games in chess history. And that that Greco D five made is, is the first one you really see of that. 
James: [00:55:36] And this is also when, um, mr. Scheibel gives her the MCO, the modern chess openings book, which is a real book, um, which has gone on for a long time, way back.
I think it was in 1910 or so. 
Danny: [00:55:48] And the first woman fight, I believe. Let me look it up. Yeah, 
James: [00:55:51] there's a whole Wiki Wiki page on it too. Did you own this? 
Danny: [00:55:55] I did. And I do. And I have, um, I'm looking at it. Uh, so there's the, the modern edition, which is Walter corporate note, the original one. I'm pretty sure.
Original. Sorry, this is fun. This is one of the few original modern chess openings author. Pretty sure it was Ruben fine. Um, no, apparently Richard Griffith, the one I had even thinking of the first encyclopedia chess openings, Nick Meehan, uh, did the 15th edition, who was actually a coach of mine. When my team won the national Scholastic chess champion.
He's a former us champion. Nick, Nick coached us at a, uh, a fun event. Um, anyway, okay. Sorry. I digress. So the, the modern modernist openings yes. Is a famous, is a famous, um, Book, um, the eco is something you hear, people refer to a lot. The MCO was like the eco in this way, the encyclopedia of just openings was a little bit less, uh, A little bit less like advice and more just here are the most popular variations that we've tracked over over this years of chess tournaments, there was an eco every year.
In fact, when you use it at, at chess.com opening explore, James is probably the most comparable to like an online version of the eco, right? It's not, it's not telling you whether the opening system is good or bad, but it tells you. Yes, James, this is the French, this is the Bishop's opening, right? So the eco was like an organized, a presentation in a book of here was the most popular chess theory.
This was how the game was evolving. The MCO was the same thing, but with contributions, from like the modern day chess authors, right. They would give their evaluations. And it was sort of the thing you had to have. The modern chess openings was, was the, the collected works of what all the best players were playing and what we know about them.
James: [00:57:36] Got it. Yep. And, and the modern chess openings book in the early days, the first one in 1910 by Griffith, uh, they, they evolve right. They, every few years of renewance coming up because chess was evolving, fast, new openings were being had, and it spiraled from 170 page book to nearly 800 page book in the most recent version.
And this is a fascinating point because he tells her, he says, You got to learn the Sicilian defense. And then we see Levon fish variation. He says the Knight or variation. These are the first three openings. Um, I would say as a Sicilian defense, 11 fish and nine Dorf, we talked a little bit about the Sicilian defense, but how does the 11 fish and the nine door for you mentioned them earlier in the podcast, how someone that doesn't know chest, I'm assuming that these are chess players.
That were historic in some point. Um, what is the, you know, what is the significance of, of those, uh, openings that he's telling her that she needs to learn? 
Danny: [00:58:33] Uh, eh, again, they're very aggressive openings. Um, and so as far as the character development of Beth, they do such a good job kind of. And we'll get into that in a minute here.
When we talk about when she gets white for, uh, for the first time where, when he, when he shows her the Queen's gambit, but there, there were aggressive opening. So again, from character development, it's fascinating to me that they not only did this incredible show where the drama outside of chess. Like you said, it's an amazing show and the critics have loved it, but I'm telling you, James, like, dude, the chess is like, so freaking good.
And then aspect too, because they're developing her character like on the board as well as off the board at the same time. And those openings are aggressive. They're, they're sharp. They're kind of relentless, right. Is the way I would describe them the night off Sicilian again, it was the favorite of Bobby Fischer.
So those that is a direct homage to again, Bobby Fisher or at least a direct reference to the. The character development. Um, and, um, again, I'm getting excited, just talking about it's really, I mean, the more we talk about it, the more I'm even appreciating again, that it was a great show. I loved it even without the chest, but when you appreciate the level of detail in which they develop this character with her chest traits, coming to life, It's it's fricking fascinating.
And by the way, while we're doing it, cause I had to, I'm going to share this link with my, with my boy monster show that the first, the first modern chess openings I owned was by Rubin fine. And he was someone who did it. And so I'm going to share with you just so you know that I wasn't making up that I'm going to paste it here to our thing.
Um, So, anyway, go ahead. Continue. 
James: [01:00:06] Nice. So she does get white as the  mate that you talked about the Grieco Greco Greco Greco. Yep. Now at this point, though, we're introduced into a brand new character, mr. Gans, who runs the chess club at a local high school. And mr. Scheibel, um, brings. Him in, he, you know, mr.
Scheibel, I think immediately recognizes what this child is about to unfold and on wrath and the world, you know? And, and he immediately wants to, I think he wants to validate himself in a way, because he's only really been playing himself, but does mr. Gans have any opportunities that he comes in and he's very nice.
And he asks Beth if she wants to play a game. And this game does not last very long. 
Danny: [01:00:57] So again, we have that, we have that listed and you, again, shout out to Motz here. Uh, there's the link that you guys will have below the show notes, along with. Um, all the other things we've been talking about, but Mott's actually watched this game super closely and you went in and you made the opening explore link.
And, um, so this game doesn't last very long. I will say this. And again, this is because they've done it such a good job, developing the character accurately on the board. I also have to. Be critical where it feels fair to be critical there, you know, these, these were moments where they're going to try to highlight the prowess of Beth.
It is a little bit strange that like a high school chess coach would play F five and D five. And maybe this is just totally the international master, but I was like, that's like a horrible opening, but to combine those two ponds and it is sort of what it ends up being this game kind of self-made himself where he plays this really bad.
Um, Really bad opening that ultimately Beth just destroys when she's white, which is so it's really not a bad thing. I mean, they, they, but because mr. Mr. Gans is set up to be, Hey, this guy is going to be better than mr. Shovel. This guy's the chess coach at the high school. I'm bringing in someone else. You get a little bit surprised.
At first, when I saw that on the board, I was like, okay, but, okay, overall, the story is, is still. What you expect, which is he, he sits down against, against this young lady who also destroys him despite his bad opening and my critics and my critiques of that. Um, and, um, And that's the scene where I already referenced earlier.
Right? That's the scene where after she crushes him, he gives her a doll. Right? You remember that? 
James: [01:02:27] I do. And this was a really hard one for me to emulate because they only show the first two moves and then they get to the opening. So in my mind, I. Uh, this bore that you see, I can not tell you if it's a one-to-one depiction of the actual moves, but it is a depiction of what would have happened to get into the state, um, around the seventh mover.
So that has her Bishop pinning his, his, um, King with a queen backing at a night, um, basically bleach checkmating, right. And in, in seven moves 
Danny: [01:03:01] and game over. The, um, yeah. The move where you had is isn't exactly. Um, what ha what had w we'll share both because yours is actually fricking phenomenal that you were able to replicate, that we actually had, um, one of our guys who authors a ton of lessons@chess.com, one of his jobs was to go through and do it.
And so the opening, uh, that goes, they're a little different, but, uh, eventually the final position is exactly what you had on the board. And, um, yeah, and, and she basically just, you know, blows him, blows him off the board and, um, the, um, Yeah. I mean, I don't even know what I was saying. Yeah. The chest is real.
She crushes him. Um, yeah. And then, 
James: [01:03:37] and then she does her first simultaneous. She decides to play Ganz and Scheibel at the same time, uh, just rowing here. So this is a, this is a fascinating one too. I mean, this is quick, right? I mean, I don't know. I mean, this is her fifth game, six games, something like that, but now she's playing two people at the same time to be able to juggle this.
I mean, this just shows to the caliber that they're trying to depict in this game because I could barely, I can barely play one game. 
Danny: [01:04:03] Remember, like, it's what you said too. Right? We don't know how many times she's played Scheibel at this point. And, and also one of the things that, um, one of the things that we've we've skipped past a little bit is, is all the scenes where they show her lying down at night.
Right. And, and sort of taking, taking these pills, whatever they are, some sort of amphetamine or chill. You know, I don't even know what the drug is by the way, not to get into paraphernalia on the, on the, on the podcast. But, um, I don't know exactly what some sort of speed. Right. I don't know what it is, but 
James: [01:04:32] I it's some side of tranquilizer it's sort of a downer, I believe that's.
Danny: [01:04:35] Uh, yeah, so the opposite, I guess. Um, anyway, but, so I do think that, uh, it is. Sort of implied that she's not only obsessed with this game. She's probably played many games with Scheibel at this point. And she's obsessed with the game in her head at night. And for those wondering, do chess players, all dream of chess at night, like that the answer is no.
And if you are normally it's another form of obsession. Like we said, she's taking, she's essentially drugging herself so she can get more and more down the rabbit hole of her obsession. Um, and, um, But I will say this getting into, back to the Simon, like you said, it's a hundred percent real. And in fact, um, the game where she beats, mr.
Shydel. Um, she, she crushes him with this, with this Bishop to  check and, and he actually resigns before even taking the Bishop and letting her made him, we see him knock down his King, which is the first time you see that. And then really the other game is the one that's super fascinating. All of a sudden the camera pans over you see, she is playing both of them at once.
Um, Clearly, she didn't care much for the doll that mr. Mr. Gans tried to give her garbage. Right. And he's making a move and she gets up like she's essentially bored. 
James: [01:05:46] Yeah. Her face, they zoom in on your face. Yeah. She, she, she does that thing where she puts her elbows out and looks at him first, clearly just like, you're not even, this is.
You don't, you don't even recognize how she knew. Right. So she gets up after staring him down and does a blindfold. Basically. She's not looking at the board. 
Danny: [01:06:09] That's great. And that finish is, is a famous game. Is it's actually a game ready to, to cower, uh, from Vienna in 1910. So again, I mentioned the Greco homage, um, sort of shout out and then ready chart to cower is a game after that.
And one of the things you'll notice. Throughout the show. I, I can't remember knowing all seven episodes that they ever break this timeline, but I want to say. At the very least I'm right overall that one of the things they do, James, is the shows, uh, sorry. The games actually evolve in time. Meaning the Greco was like, like the first game from like the 18 hundreds, right.
Then this ready tart to cower game from Vienna 1910, is that much further along the games that they, that they are referencing. Um, a lot of times they are original, but when they are referencing these famous finishes. They, they evolve in the timeline of chess. And that's just a super cool thing. We'll get into that in later episodes, but the ready target, Cal we're finished with the queen sacrifice, she says, and then, you know, she, whatever she announces that it's made in three, you know, it's, it's, it's, you know, the queen and then the Bishop, and then it's checkmate on the next move is not only illegal chest position at this point, as the chess player, watching the show, I was like, okay, Okay.
Okay. Okay. You got, you have my attention officially. Okay. You, you are not going to screw this up clearly and that's a famous finish. And the fact that she does it in a blindfold manner is. Is even more fascinating. And by the way, it's not unrealistic of a player who, um, no way anyone in five games would get there, but given the assumption that she's obsessed with this game and has like really gotten better with her, with her kind of coach, mr.
Scheibel, um, that's not an unrealistic thing. A lot of people assume when they first see people playing blindfold, chess, or Simos James, that it's like some sort of parlor trick, right? Like what's the trick. Right. What's the, what is the, you know, the other person's in on it or whatever, but yes, it's very much a language in that way.
Like once you kind of master it and know how to speak it, you don't always have to look at it. The board is, is really just a medium to communicate your, your mood and thoughts to your opponents. So. I'm sorry for the long-winded answer, but I really want to clarify to people like that's not an unrealistic, basic thing that a chess prodigy would be able to do.
In fact, you know, many times in chess tournaments, as we've traveled in the car, I mean, we would play blindfold games against each other. It's something it's a muscle you want to develop. And she, and she does it obviously in fine fashion with there. With their shout out to the ready target cower, Vienna victory.
So 
James: [01:08:32] that's cool to know the background behind them because that's one thing I wouldn't know, actually is these are references to historic matches, uh, and openings. Right? I think I know about the openings, but I don't know about the matches. So it's really cool that, um, you and the team has sort of done this diagnostics and deep dive into the matches and where they're coming from and a right.
That's really cool to me. I almost want to, I'm putting some, some links into the show notes, so those as well. And then, you know, you mentioned the playing, you know, the movements of the hand sort of, you know, drugged yourself a little bit, but then we get to this very fascinating, um, Point in the, in the, in the, in the show, it's sort of the end of the chest for the show, 
Danny: [01:09:09] right?
James: [01:09:10] Which is, uh, mr. Gans comes back and he wants Beth to do a Simon simultaneous match against the high school chess club. And he describes what that is. Um, you know, that she's going to play all these players at the same time. I've seen you do this as a coach, walking around with the kids. There was a video, I think on YouTube.
I remember you doing that. Um, this is, this is fascinating because. The, you know, mrs. Deardorff or she doesn't want Beth to go alone. So he has, um, another individual from the school she comes along and there's, there has to be some significance here because she asks Beth, do you play the King's gambit? And can you break that sentence down?
What is the what's going on there? You know, obviously there's, what's called the Queen's gambit. When do, when do we, do we see the Queen's gambit in. This show in this cycle. What, and how does that differ from the King's gambit? Like what, what, what, what is the significance of these things? 
Danny: [01:10:03] So the, the, the Queen's gambit is first reference, and I believe this is in episode one where he lets her play, um, Sorry, he lets her play white for the first time in episode one.
I'm correct about that. Right. Okay. But there's also the scene where he plays the Queen's pawn forward and she said, what's that that's different. Right. Um, and, and the reason that's an important, uh, references because. All the other things. You mentioned 11 fish, the Sicilian, the scholars made tonight, our system, those are all E four openings and she's been playing black against
So then he gives her white, you know, for the first time. And then we're back to him teaching her where he plays the deep on, which is the Queen's pawn. Um, and in theory, it is kind of actually a mistake to immediately call the Defour move the Queens gambit because actually the Queens gambit is not official until a couple more moves.
You can play the Queen's pawn. And it's not the Queen's gambit, but okay. Regardless, the significance I believe of your question was that she's asking her, she plays the King's gambit. And I guess I actually don't know. I mean, I'm having to think here of the symbolism. I mean, the King's gambit is not like the Queen's gambit.
It's not the Defour Queen's pawn game that mr. Scheibel teaches her. Um, and as far as we know at this point, she does not play the King scam, but, you know, I don't know what they were trying to do there if they're trying to make it so that, um, you know, that, that the. I forget her name. You were just mentioning the, kind of the head, the head lady there that she knows.
She has enough to ask that I actually don't even know. I mean, honestly, I don't know how to answer what the significance of the King's gambit is besides this. The King's gambit is like the polar opposite of the Queen's gambit. As far as openings go. 
James: [01:11:40] And so she, so she's like, no, I don't. Right. So she clearly that's not her.
Alright. So let's get to the chess club match again. We're we're we're we ended the chess where we started the chess, um, which is Beth enters a room, and then she's surrounded by. Um, a bunch of, a bunch of people and a bunch of white, white guys playing chess. Um, and these are all the high school students who come in all cocky.
They come and so hockey, they don't know what about to hit them. I love them. Charles Levy, um, who is apparently the top chess player here is on board one. Now let's talk about this because I learned a lot. From watching this for this whole episode for the second time, but I wrote down, right. So she starts on the first one goes to the next one.
Um, what's the etiquette here. They she's, she looks back as she's going through. Um, and I don't know if you could break down. I don't know if she played the same move on every board. I couldn't really dial in there, but he goes, mr. Gans goes, they can't play until you've gotten through. Everybody the first round of what, what is a Simon?
How does that work? And is this accurate today of what they depicted and Sarah? 
Danny: [01:12:48] Yep. A hundred percent accurate and super well done. And I believe she is playing. She is playing different moves, but you're right. They kind of come in and by the way, the way they set up the sign mill in the U shape, I've seen shows that don't do it that way.
That's a hundred percent, how assignment would be, you would start on one end of the U and work your way around. And yes, it is etiquette that. In assignment, the person does not move until the Simon giver is in front of them. I think that, you know, who knows why that was started? I mean, many, many moons ago, way before my time, maybe it was because, you know, the etiquette is don't mess with the board when someone's not looking right.
It's like, like you don't want to make it, like they're not looking. And what are you going to do with the pieces with grandmasters and people that are super talented that would play Simons. That's not really a risk. I've literally played Simoes with dozens and dozens of players where I go to a board and someone did like cheat.
Like literally, they changed something and maybe they did it as a joke. Like they took my queen off the board or something like that. And I immediately noticed even with, you know, dozens of games going. Um, and so that's not really the case because they would cheat. It's just the, it's just the ethical thing to do, but you wait for the Simon giver.
Um, and so that's kind of a cool thing. It's her first experience of sort of learning that, um, And I, and I love the way that whole sink goes. She obviously destroys them. And that scene continues while she's both playing chess and now sort of recapping it with, with mr. Scheibel, right? She's eating chocolates and recapping it.
And, and it's still sort of happening in real time. And I love the way she talks about everything she references, by the way, it's totally real. Like she's one of my parents do that. She's like, you know, they didn't know what to do. You know, they, they kept making their backward pawns. Right. Which is a real Chester, which is awesome.
Um, and it is, it is kind of an advanced thing that like, Players who aren't as good as her would not appreciate what a backward pawn is, which is a position of weakness. That is, um, that is, has like long lasting negative effects. Uh, a backward polling is a, is a, is a big positional mistake. It's not like you would think you hung your queen, but it's a, it's, it's a funny way that she talks about it.
Like she's talking down to them, right. They didn't even know how to deal with backward pawns. Right. And they left their pieces and I was forking them everywhere. It's just the whole dialogue. There is really hilarious. 
James: [01:14:51] Yeah. I wrote that down. I really, I really did like that. Yeah. She says they're backward ponds and they're wide open for forks.
These are things I have no idea what she's talking about. So I'm glad you could describe those there. Describe, uh, describe a fork forest really quick. What's happening there that she's taught. 
Danny: [01:15:05] So a fork is where you attack two pieces at once. Um, and so it's another term is just a double attack. Um, But a fork specifically is usually with a night or upon, um, and, uh, it's because the actual shape of a Knight or a pawn on the chess board attacking two different things, sorta creates a fork.
Like if you imagine that a Knight is, is attacking two pieces at once, one is on one side, one is on the other. There's a visual fork mentally, and the same with a pawn because upon a tax diagonally, it quite literally looks like a fork. If you are attacking two pieces of one. So, so usually the term fork is a tactic referring to a Knight or a pawn.
Um, but you, you can also loosely use it to refer to any type of double attack you're you're forking someone's pieces. Um, and uh, usually a sloppy, sloppy player will leave multiple pieces undefended, which would allow for a double attack of two pieces of one. So, um, anyway, again, the main thing is completely correct terminology.
Uh, Of kind of funny and silly that she does it with a mouth full of chocolates. Like, you know, and you've got mr. Shovel, you can imagine just super proud. Right. And she's like, I did it, you know, I destroyed them kind of. 
James: [01:16:14] Yeah. And you get, you could tell that there was some relationship forming here that is long lasting again, foreshadowing one of my favorite parts in the middle, actually, when mr.
Gans goes. And he wants to take a photo and she, she puts her hand on mr. Scheibel shoulder. Very significant looking up to, to, to mr. Scheibel in general right now, this is the last of the chest that we see. And this starts to become a very interesting spiral for Beth because these tranquilizers that we've been talking about are now outlawed, right?
She knocks out everybody in this, in this tournament destroys Charles, Charles Alavi in this. And, um, and now we learn. That all those things, her addiction, those, those visions she had in her head or training have now been outlawed. And we go through more of this. We'll talk about it through a lot of the series, right.
We see, we see not only real signs, we see subtle signs of, of sexism, um, throughout the chess game, but also in this orphanage, the things that they're they're teaching, um, there's reference, uh, early on of, of how like proper etiquette and things like the proper etiquette for a lady that, um, she isn't here for.
You know, she, you know, Beth is here as a strong, independent, brilliant woman who was about to destroy the world in chess. So, which, which I, which I love is they love the strong character that Beth has. And she's smart. Right? She's clever. The final scene that we see is she breaking in to the little, um, The area where all these pills are at and she gets a little greedy at, there might be some foreshadowing here too, by the way, she gets up, she goes a little bit, a little bit too much.
She goes back for the bowl and then just down a little mouthful of, 
Danny: [01:17:52] of tranquil. And it's, it's back to like the. Not, not the chess part of it, but like, you know, just how great they're developing the story of this. Right. Cause you, we already know what we saw in the beginning of the show, right. Was clearly a night where, you know, it's okay for everyone to have a good time, but clearly maybe they lost a little bit of control.
Right? Yeah. Which is what you see in the apartment. The people still sleeping. The fact that she wakes up almost rounding in a bath, she's late for a chess game. So enough set. Then you know that she's got all this trauma. So clearly you're looking at. You know what we know, like people go through rough times and tough things.
And if you don't deal with trauma, like maybe you develop other ways of coping, right? And the very common that, you know, substance abuse is something that, you know, people in those scenarios might struggle with. And then it goes to this end of this episode where yes, we've had all this amazing. She hasn't developed this character, but Hey, let's not forget.
This is a super damaged human being who now has had her sort of lifeline this to rug that she's become addicted to taken from her. And. You know, she's going to struggle. She's going to struggle with like self control for the rest of the show. Right. And so I can say that without even fortunate to just episode, like you just know right away, like, okay, that's how episode one ends.
It's super powerful. She's an amazing potential talent. Who's got a ton of issues and then bam overdoses on, on, um, on this downer and hits the floor. Right. It is just going to be an awesome show for right from there 
James: [01:19:14] he hooked and, uh, hopefully it hooked everyone as well. And that is our breakdown of openings, which, um, these names of these episodes, I believe have some real meaning behind them.
We'll continue on this. And obviously we mentioned that. That she was learning the openings. We broke down the openings. This was her opening of the series. This was her learning openings and it was her, her introduction, uh, an opening into the chest world. So a lot of, I love the foreshadowing. I love the.
Um, just the, the different meaning that they're putting behind this, right? The, the, the book, the references, just everything they do. And they'll continue doing this through, uh, the series and, and we'll be here with you every part of the way as we come back, uh, next week, um, with exchanges, um, which is episode two.
Danny: [01:20:04] Episode two foreshadowing, as you said, the name of, uh, of each episode, by the way, reference to chest right. Openings is, is directly referencing the first stage of a game and mindset. All the other things that's kind of, you know, suddenly referencing, but the opening stage, we know there's a middle game and an end game, um, in, uh, in chess.
And so. Exchanges. What does that mean? Right. We got some exchanges of characters and all kinds of experiences. And, uh, like Mazzi said, we're going to be back. I cannot wait for episode two. This was a ton of fun. I think, I think, I think every one of our breakdowns is going to be, you know, is going to be kinda like this.
So hopefully you enjoyed it and, uh, Give us your, give us your share. Give us your light. Give us your sub. I'm supposed to ask for all those things, right, James, or is that w you know, do people who are cool still ask for all those things? 
James: [01:20:50] I think so. Yes. If you had, if you enjoyed this episode, please head over to blunders, RFM.
Um, there's ways that you can share the podcast with all of your friends and family. That's the biggest thing that will help this show. You can also leave a review on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcast from blunder.fm is the archive is where you'll find all the new episodes. But you know, the best thing that you can do is hit that subscribe button and of course, give us feedback.
What else do you want to hear? What are some things that you may be found in the episode? 
Danny: [01:21:19] Do we, do you feel like we didn't give anything that happened in the episode, the proper love and attention? Cause honestly, if we get that feedback, maybe we can start, you know, our episodes with a little bit of a shout out to those who give us feedback and comments.
If there was anything from openings that we missed, please give us your feedback and we will. We'll do it. We'll we'll we'll, we'll talk about it. If we missed anything important. I want to know. There you go. 
James: [01:21:42] Blended out a fam there's a contact button up there. Let us know, or just hit us up on Twitter.
Thank you, Danny. So much for every little bit of goodness in this. I really appreciate it. 
Danny: [01:21:50] You just, man, I just miss this so much. I hope people go check out the other stuff. I feel like I just want to go back and listen to all of our episodes now, because this is, this is so much fun for both of us. And for me specifically, I feel like this is like a.
No, no, no. Just hanging out with you. My bestie. I don't want to get too awkward here, everyone, but I love James Monte magnet a lot. 
James: [01:22:11] Well, I love you too, Danny, and I will see you next week on coffee house Flanders.