Terry Winnick (00:00.162)
some thoughts and then I'll just pick up and

Jonathan Green (00:02.966)
Sure. that that that sounds great. I appreciate that. so

Terry Winnick (00:07.178)
I know your dad's done a lot of writing about the history of the studio when he was there.

Jonathan Green (00:13.698)
He has, yes. and he it's it's been great. I I love to pick my dad's brain and he and I we'll just chit chat all the time about the time. He he misses the place a lot.

Terry Winnick (00:25.238)
Yeah, my son my son is real interested. He's I don't know how old you are. How Yeah, he's thirty two. And he's really into all the things that we used to do at the studio when he was he remembers when he was really young. I used to you know, when I was running the studio for a while I was the executive vice president of the tour then I used to take him up there every weekend with me and he'd go around and

Jonathan Green (00:30.885)
I'm twenty nine.

Terry Winnick (00:55.212)
hang out at the rides with all the operators and stuff but I don't he he forces me sorta to remember stuff by asking me what happens when, you know. So it's been a long time.

Jonathan Green (01:06.454)
It's a

Terry Winnick (01:10.102)
You know, we we did a lot of you know, it goes back to nineteen sixty five, so that's a long time ago. That's forty years ago. That's a long time ago.

Jonathan Green (01:22.402)
Now I actually since you you brought up the date, I do have a question on that. 'cause is the actual studio tour did that start in sixty four or sixty five? Sixty four, and then the theme park officially started in sixty five?

Terry Winnick (01:33.006)
Sixty four.

Terry Winnick (01:38.592)
Well, the tour started in early sixty four. It was wha what the Al Dorskin have you heard that name before? Yeah, he he started he had the idea for the for the tour. and because Greyline sightseeing

Jonathan Green (01:51.822)
I have, yes.

Terry Winnick (02:07.482)
used to bring their buses on the lot. And they'd pay I don't know what they'd pay, it wasn't very expensive, but they'd allow the buses, the Grey Line buses to drive around on the lot and bring their people to the commissary for lunch. And Dorskin got the idea that he gotta take people off the bus and put on trams

And so this is sort of sketchy 'cause it's been a long time, but sure. what happened was that Universal contracted with a company in

Terry Winnick (02:55.052)
way out by

Santa Anita racetrack. I don't remember whether it was West Covina or w exactly where they had their operation, but there was a a little bus company called Minibus. I and I Minibus. One word. And Universal contracted with Minibus to build a few trams. The pink and white, you know, what we ultimately called

the original glamour tram. And

Jonathan Green (03:30.382)
Sure.

Terry Winnick (03:35.182)
And so they people would come in and the buses would pull up in front of where the commissary is and they'd get off the bus and get on the tram and then the tram and the tour guide would take around the lot. That's sorta how it started in sixty four.

Jonathan Green (03:48.957)
Huh.

Terry Winnick (03:50.606)
There was there was no real top of the hill as we know it now. I have some photographs someplace that I have on a disc that I could send you if you want. I there's a guy whose name is what the hell is his name? Sam Genoway.

Jonathan Green (03:59.982)
Okay.

Jonathan Green (04:08.507)
that'd be great.

Terry Winnick (04:20.11)
He's a city planner. He works for some company in Glendale. And he wrote a book about Disney, the unofficial guide to Disneyland. it's on it's on ham Amazon dot com. You can get it on Amazon and you can look at it. Okay. But he's writing a book that's gonna be published

sometime before Christmas about the history of Universal Studios. And he he came around and interviewed

Jonathan Green (04:51.648)
wow.

Terry Winnick (04:58.668)
Well, he tried to interview a bunch of the guys. He tried to interview Jay Stein and Dorskin of course is dead. Dorskin's daughter

has all of his records a lot of his records are in the in the Pasadena Museum.

Jonathan Green (05:23.938)
Hmm, that's interesting.

Terry Winnick (05:25.73)
But but she has an office in Beverly Hills on

I don't remember if it's Rodeo Drive. I think it's Rodo South Rodeo Drive that that where she stores all of his archival pictures of and history of Universal Studios. And

Jonathan Green (05:45.631)
Okay.

Terry Winnick (05:50.274)
It it would be interesting to talk to her too.

Jonathan Green (05:54.602)
Good job.

Terry Winnick (05:55.63)
anyway, Dorskin Dorskin w

started the tour yeah, i in in like si early sixty four and it was just a tram tour that left from the commissary. And then

Then they decided they were gonna add shows and and exhibits and stuff, you know, like the animal show and the makeup show and all that kind of stuff. And and and they did some really rudimentary stuff down on the lower lot initially, and then they took over the top of the hill

Jonathan Green (06:27.678)
Yes.

Terry Winnick (06:44.355)
in in sixty five sixty six

And

And they the water tank was up there which is no longer there and some of the pictures that I have

showed the top of the hill with the water tank and the initial and the initial tour stuff. We were all in trailers. They built they built some ticket booths.

Jonathan Green (07:05.36)
wow.

Terry Winnick (07:15.686)
And they built that the the road up where the you know, where you go up past the Texaco building or whatever it's called now and then past the Sheridan Universal and the Hilton. none of that was there. There was no Sheridan Universal, there was no Hilton, there was no there was no bridge over the toll booths. there was some toll booths there, but the bridge wasn't there. I didn't build the bridge until seventy three or seventy four.

Jonathan Green (07:24.984)
Sure.

Jonathan Green (07:37.591)
Huh.

Terry Winnick (07:45.486)
and then you'd get up to the top of the hill and there was a big flat area that they had graded off. And they put they built the ticket booths and they built an entrance building

which I don't know what that building is now, but it was originally the entrance and it had some bathrooms and there was the maintenance yard there and and there was the warlord tower which I think is still there. and then in between the the

Jonathan Green (08:19.606)
Mm-hmm.

Terry Winnick (08:32.77)
There was a maintenance yard, there was wardrobe where we all got our uniforms every morning.

There was a coffee shop kind of the the lobby was sort of a big glass box with a roof over it. And on one side was was a souvenir stand and a Kodak film booth and a little coffee bar where you could get refreshments. And

And then in the middle of it was the what we called the boat, which was like a low counter hype oblong kind of kind of what are you doing, Casey?

was kind of

It was sh sort of shaped like it was oblong. It was like it was like a shaped like a boat, like a s a rowboat. And in the middle of that the information people sat. Three or four people in guide uniforms and you'd switch off what the tour guides would switch off in those in those seats.

Terry Winnick (09:56.352)
And there were phones there, so if you called the information line and you wanted to know about a tour of Universal Studios, they would answer the phone. And if you had gone through the ticket booths and bought your tickets, come on, come on out. I just got a new dog. He's learning the house. I had three Australian shepherds. wow. And they were all fourteen, fifteen, sixteen years old, and I just put the last one to sleep about a month ago.

Jonathan Green (10:12.737)
Yeah.

Jonathan Green (10:25.336)
I'm sorry to hear that.

Terry Winnick (10:25.942)
And I've been looking Yeah, they were I had him sixteen years, poor old magic bear. wow. But I just got a two and a half year old Australian Shepherd show dog from I shipped him from I bought him from a breeder in Michigan, as far north in Michigan as you can go. And he's just used he just I've had him for a week and he's just getting used to the house. He still doesn't know his way around yet.

Jonathan Green (10:52.91)
That's fine.

Terry Winnick (10:54.314)
He's really cute though. it's great. I just love him. I've always had I've always had Australian shepherds. I just love him. I've had about fifteen of They're he's he's really he's weighs about sixty pounds, but he's just beautiful. Casey, you wanna go in the house? Go ahead. Go on. Okay. Well. So that

Jonathan Green (11:07.967)
great.

Terry Winnick (11:22.44)
You'd go through this lobby and then you'd go down you'd you'd get in the queue line and the trams would pull in and and drop you off or pick you up, take you on your tour and then drop you off. So that was that was all that was up there. And then they they graded a little more and they made room for the farm, which was the original animal show. It was just a farm with some log benches in the middle of it and a stage in the middle of it.

And Ray Berwick was the animal trainer. Your dad used to announce his show. Right. He was yeah, he was the he was the the trainer of the birds for the movie The Birds. That's the one that made him famous. And then he had the little the dog from the little house on the prairie. And he had Fred the Cockatoo from Beretta later on.

Jonathan Green (12:13.218)
Sure, okay.

Terry Winnick (12:21.91)
That was a pretty famous bird.

Wow, very cool. He had he had yeah, your dad used to announce that, you know, five or six times a day, eight times a day. And they had the stunt show. And it was way it's it's where I don't know what's there now. I there was it was originally the stunt show, then it became

I think it was Dragnet or Adam twelve. Forget which one. One of those two shows. Let's see. Where do we do Adam Twelve? Was that

Stage seventy, did we do that? No. We did Adam twelve there. That was with Marty Milner and Kent McCord. Yeah, and it was the old stunt show buildings and then we just set up that was the screen test that was the original screen test theater.

Jonathan Green (13:15.71)
Okay.

Jonathan Green (13:25.048)
Is that right? Is that where the Star Trek ended up going? Is

Terry Winnick (13:30.062)
Star Trek may be there. No. No. No. No. No, I don't know what it is now. Star Trek was at Screen Test Theater, wasn't it? Yeah. No, this was the old State Seven they called it State Seventy. okay. It was it was the stunt show, then it was Adam Twelve.

Jonathan Green (13:39.266)
Okay.

Jonathan Green (13:46.156)
Yes, yes.

Terry Winnick (13:58.178)
Then it was the Land of a Thousand Faces makeup show.

Then it was Castle Dracula.

Jonathan Green (14:08.462)
Okay, that's where the special effects stage is ne currently.

Terry Winnick (14:11.734)
Yeah, then it then it was Conan. And then it was something else, and then it was the spe now it's the special effects stage.

Jonathan Green (14:13.74)
Okay.

Jonathan Green (14:20.204)
Yes. Okay. Okay, very cool.

Terry Winnick (14:22.698)
Okay. And then the tram would leave from the t the the tram would leave from the entrance complex, this building, and it would go down the hill around what was called

Terry Winnick (14:42.176)
It it was a canyon. I can't remember the name of it.

It would go around this i it would go around down the hill to w right about where the trams load from now. Okay, and then it would go down firehouse hill, which and half halfway down ultimately we built a burning house there. And and in that hole in the ground, there was a canyon and part of the canyon, the eastern side of the canyon

Jonathan Green (14:56.494)
Okay.

Terry Winnick (15:19.446)
was the dump. Okay. And later on, on top of the dump, when it was filled in, we built the tram garage, which is where the tram garage is now.

Jonathan Green (15:30.628)
well interesting.

Terry Winnick (15:32.782)
Okay, and then you'd go past you go across the the you'd sort of you know, go on the road would be between where the amphitheater was and in those days there was no amphitheater, it just a hole in the ground. And then and then and the dump was this road. So the road you the tram would go, make a big U turn, start down the hill, and halfway down the hill ultimately we built the burning house and then at the bottom of the hill was the fire station.

Jonathan Green (16:00.298)
Hmm.

Terry Winnick (16:01.57)
And then next door to the fire station was the makeup department for the studio.

And across from that, on the south side of the street, but a little bit east of the fire station and the makeup building was a building called Men's Feature Wardrobe. And that's where they kept if you were an extra male male extra or you were star working on a picture

You'd go to men's feature wardrobe to get your costume.

And across from that on the opposite side of the street was some bungalows which were dressing rooms. So the tram would stop at the bottom of Firehouse Hill by the fire station, and then you'd get off and you'd walk into you'd walk past the makeup department and you'd walk into men's feature wardrobe. And you could see the all the costumes hanging in there. That building's gone now.

Well, I think the makeup building may still be no, no, the makeup building is gone and and the fire station's gone because that's where that's where Jurassic Park is.

Jonathan Green (17:21.965)
okay, okay.

Terry Winnick (17:25.418)
And then and then you'd walk around the corner, you'd walk down the street just a little bit to the major intersection there, and you'd make a right turn and then there was there was a big open parking lot and and that's those those bungalows and that parking lot are where ET is.

Or no it's not E. T., it's now the mummy ride. Ultimately we built E. T. there. And then in that parking lot you could fit about mm

Jonathan Green (17:57.421)
The mummy.

Terry Winnick (18:09.302)
Maybe one, two, three, four, five, six, maybe six or eight strands side by side.

And then in those days you didn't go to you didn't go to any specific sound stage. You went to whatever sound stage might be in

Jonathan Green (18:29.622)
Hm.

Terry Winnick (18:30.87)
And so you could go to stage twenty eight or twenty six or twenty four or thirty or thirty two or or stage one. It just depended upon which stage was available and there was nothing in them except sets, you know, and sometimes they were dressed and sometimes they weren't dressed.

Jonathan Green (18:52.31)
Okay.

Terry Winnick (18:53.984)
And the tour guides would have to talk.

and sort of fill in the blanks for the for the visitors. And you could stand on that sound stage

For fifteen minutes or an hour.

And then and then and then you'd get back on the tram and the tram would be the tram would pull around and meet you in that sort of parking lot if you were if you stayed in that area. If you went to a different parking lot if you went to a different location, the tram would just sit outside the stage, so you'd get off the tram and you'd go into the stage.

And and you could go to a different stage every day and then you get back on the tram and you'd sort of drive around the front lot and then you'd head out towards the back lot. And in those days there were no back lot attractions, there were no tram ride kind of attractions. You were just driving through i empty streets or driving around filming and sometimes you could see it off in the distance and sometimes you might be able to go right by it if they were if they were on a hiatus.

Terry Winnick (20:02.424)
from from a film or a T V show that was shooting, you could drive through the through the streets that were dressed if they w you know, if they left the dressing up and if not, you had to fill in the blanks. But there were no there was no parting of the Red Sea, there was no flash flood, there was no there was no King Kong, there was no collapsing bridge, there was no there was nothing.

No parting at the Red Sea, you know, none of that stuff. And and your t tour would take depending upon how long you were in the sound stage, your tour could take three hours or it could take five hours because it we didn't have a lot of trams in those days. I don't remember the exact number, but I think I think we started with I think the tour in sixty four

Five had about twelve trans.

ten or twelve and then we then we it's okay Casey. And then we added more more trams until we got a I think we had twenty four glamour trams. And they were all originally just a couple of cars and then we had three cars and then we added a fourth car. And in nineteen seventy one

I went to Washington D C. I left the tour and went to work for for landmark services was called Tourmobile. The Tourmobile in Washington D C and that the tour wanted to expand its reach. And and

Terry Winnick (22:00.462)
Jay Stein was Dorskin was the original was the original head of the tour. He was an MCA vice president and and he was the treasurer of MCA and his s secretary, a lady by the name of Roberta Ross, was the first general manager of the tour.

Jonathan Green (22:25.266)
wow.

Terry Winnick (22:26.508)
He gave her the responsibility for running the tour. That's how small the operation was. And then

by sixty six, sixty five. they brought well see, she was the original general manager. Then in sixty five I think a guy by the name of Barry Upson, U P S O N, came and became the general manager. And he came from the Seattle Wolves there.

And he brought with him a guy named Cliff Walker.

And Cliff Walker became the first director of operations or opera they called him the operations manager of the tourism.

in sixty five. And he hired a guy by the name of Ed Huntington Huntington, who your dad'll remember, who was the head of maintenance. And he picked him because there were a number of guys who were up for the job as head of maintenance. But Ed was an electrician and the other guy that was up for the job

Terry Winnick (23:46.668)
that was, you know, one of the finalists was a carpenter. And Cliff Cliff had a really great saying. He said, I'd rather teach an electrician to pound nails than a carpenter to pull wire.

Jonathan Green (24:00.034)
Ha ha.

Terry Winnick (24:02.134)
And that's why he picked that Huntington. And and Cliff was the operations manager for

Geez, I don't know. He might have been ten years as the operations manager. Ed Huntington was the head of maintenance for at least that long. Maybe longer. And then when Barry Epson left, he was an architect and he didn't stay very long. He went to work for a an architectural firm in Pasadena called Smith and Williams.

And they became sort of the architects of the tour. And so it didn't matter whether we were building a food stand or or show theater or whatever it was. They didn't do the special effects, but they they were responsible for building the buildings. And and

Jonathan Green (24:41.376)
Yeah.

Terry Winnick (25:05.056)
And Barry went to work with Smith and Williams. He went to work for a guy there by the name of Wayne Williams, who was the principal of Smith and Williams. I don't remember Smith's first name. He didn't really have too much to do with the with the tour. It was Wayne Williams was the architect in charge and then Barry worked for him and was one of the partners and then

Terry Winnick (25:37.614)
Ed Huntington was became the main the head of maintenance and Cliff was the operations director. And then Jay Stein, when Barry left, Jay Stein became the general manager of the tour. That was about

Jonathan Green (25:49.218)
Well okay.

Terry Winnick (25:54.424)
Sixty nine.

Sixty nine.

And then Dorskin and don't print this between you and me, but then Dorskin got into a big fight with Lou Watserman and you know, who was the chairman of the board of MCA. At that time he was the president of MCA. When we started the tour, Jules Stein was the chairman of the board of MCA and Lou Watserman was the president. and then

And then Al Dorskin was one of the MCA corporate vice presidents and he was the treasurer of MCA. And he got into a battle with Wattsman and I don't know exactly what that was over. But he got sort of he was removed as the treasurer of MCA. He was still a corporate vice president, and he was put in charge of what was called MCA development.

And MCA development was then responsible for all the construction on the studio lot that dealt with everything except the movie related stuff or film related stuff.

Jonathan Green (27:19.736)
Mm-hmm.

Terry Winnick (27:22.328)
So like the Crocker Bank Building, which is the the the white building next to the MCA Tower.

Jonathan Green (27:28.557)
Yes.

Terry Winnick (27:30.24)
I don't know what they call that building now. I think they call it the Producers Building. But the Crocker Bank he built the Crocker Bank building. He built the Texaco building. He he was responsible for the master plan of the studio property and the whole four hundred and twenty five acres. he was responsible for the, you know, sort of

master planning of the studio. Mm. And but he wasn't responsible for the planning or the design of the tour. All that's anything that related to the tour was initially Dorskin's responsibility when he was in charge and then when Jay Stein became the general manager he he

He was responsible for the tour side of deciding what we were gonna build, food stands or or whatever, merchandise facilities or shows or ride. And Jay wanted to exp expand the tour. This was like sixty nine.

And there was an opportun they always thought that one way to grow the recreation division, and it wasn't called the recreation division in those days, in si in the late sixties, it was called the tour division. But one of the ways to grow it was to get into the national park service. So Yosemite National Park, Yellowstone

Grand Canyon National Park, Grand Teton, Gettysburg Battlefield, all the national parks had concessionaires. So the National Park Service would own owned the land. It was a national park, you know, it was r the responsibility of the National Park Service. Mm-hmm. which was a part of the Department of the Interior in Washington D C. But

Terry Winnick (29:43.778)
The Secretary of the Interior oversees the National Park Service and then there's a director of various regions of the national park system. So there's a Western Director, there's a Southern Director, there's an Eastern Director, and there was a director of National Capitol Parks, which was the the the w the federal mall in you ever been to Washington D C?

Jonathan Green (30:09.462)
I have not, no.

Terry Winnick (30:11.756)
Well, from the Capitol building which is on the east side.

to the White House, which is on the north in the center, to the Lincoln Memorial, which is on the west side, to the Jefferson Memorial, which is on the south side in the middle. So there's it's just think of it as a as a cross. So the the White House is on the north. The Washington Monuments in the middle

Jonathan Green (30:38.285)
Okay.

Terry Winnick (30:46.88)
in the center, the White House on the north in the center, and the Jefferson Memorial is on the south side in

Jonathan Green (30:54.366)
Okay.

Terry Winnick (30:55.796)
That's that's one side of the cross. Then the Lincoln Memorial is on the west side. The Washington Monument is in the center, and the Capitol building is on the east side, on the other arm of the cross. Got got the picture? So a straight line from the Wash from the White House to the Washington Monument to the Jefferson Memorial, and a straight line from the Lincoln Memorial to the

Jonathan Green (30:58.946)
Okay.

Jonathan Green (31:11.594)
Okay. Yes.

Terry Winnick (31:24.876)
Washington Monument to the Capitol. Okay. So you have a crot, okay? And that area in between is called the Federal Mall. And the and and next to the Jefferson Memorial, just slightly north of it, is the Bureau of Engraving and Printing. And then along the east west

cross going east towards the capital is the Smithsonian Institution and now there's a thing called the Hershorn Gallery of Art and there was the Voice of America building and there were a bunch of museums and federal buildings along each arm of the cross.

Jonathan Green (32:12.056)
Mm-hmm.

Terry Winnick (32:14.526)
And and at in the ninth in nineteen sixty nine

And before nineteen sixty nine the the traffic was horrible on the streets in the mall.

Jonathan Green (32:31.704)
Okay.

Terry Winnick (32:33.006)
'Cause of all the visitors to the museums, there was a museum of of art, there was a museum of natural history, there was the Smithsonian Institution, there was and so and in the middle of all that was the was was a big park called Potomac Park. And and there was a big reflecting pool which was in front of Lincoln Memorial and that's where the peace marches were and

Martin Luther King's Freedom March and all that stuff was taking place. All the the Vietnam War was going on and all the you know, the million man march and all the protesters against the Vietnam War, that was all that was all happening at that time and it would happen on them all. When the President of the United States gets elected and they have the swearing in ceremony, that takes place on the back steps

Jonathan Green (33:19.703)
Mm-hmm.

Terry Winnick (33:32.426)
of the US Capitol which faces into the mall. So when you see all those people lined up, millions of people lined up, you know, watching President Obama get sworn in, they're all standing on the federal mall. Okay? They're in the in the middle of the mall. And around that park are all these museums and art galleries and the Smithsonian Institution and the Vietnam Memorial.

Jonathan Green (33:46.742)
Okay.

Terry Winnick (34:01.962)
It's all taking place on the mall. And so the Park Service in nineteen sixty nine decided it was going to close the federal mall to all parking.

And the only way you could you could drive on the streets, but you couldn't park alongside the streets on the streets. interesting. To eliminate traffic congestion. And at the same time, they wanted to start a an interpretive guided tour of the mall. And so they put out a a request for proposal and the and universal Jay Stein

And Lou Wasserman decided that they were gonna bid on this

Guided short them all.

Jonathan Green (34:56.246)
Hm.

Terry Winnick (34:58.924)
And the other part of the tour was that if you if you start at the Capitol and you go east, like we've been talking about, okay. I mean sorry, you go west from the Capitol, from the back side of the Capitol building.

you come to the Washington Monument, then you come on the far end to the Lincoln Memorial and then if you go over the Arlington Bridge which goes over the Potomac River and you come to Arlington National Cemetery. It's in a straight line from the Capitol to the Washington Monument to the Lincoln Memorial across the bridge and then you come to Arlington National Cemetery. And the cemetery used to be open

Jonathan Green (35:26.894)
Okay.

Terry Winnick (35:43.66)
to vehicles. So if you wanted to go visit a grave, you'd simply drive your car into the cemetery.

Jonathan Green (35:48.876)
Hmm.

Terry Winnick (35:50.84)
But there was so much traffic generated because they had built the Kennedy grave site had you know, the permanent the eternal flame had been lit and they had built a really beautiful grave site for President Kennedy. And the and the number of visitors in those days increased dramatically because people wanted to go to Kennedy's grave. And so people would drive their cars into the cemetery and they'd park on the graves, they'd you know, they were

filling up the cemetery with nothing but cars and people walking on the gravesites to see to see the cemetery. So they decided at the same time they were gonna close Arlington National Cemetery and and allow only walking visitors or visitors who took a tram ride through the cemetery. And so they had this concession contract for

what ultimately became what's called today, still there, still operates, called the Tourmobiles. Landmark Services Tour Mobile. And Lark Services was the company that MCA created and it was run by the Tour. Jay Stein was the head of it. And it was gonna be the first of several companies that we owned that would get into the national park business.

Jonathan Green (37:20.174)
Interesting.

Terry Winnick (37:21.292)
And and the introduction to that was landmark services tourmobile in Washington DC. So in seventy the end of nineteen seventy I went to Washington to become the director of operations for the tourmobile in Washington. And and as part of that we built now you'll see how this all ties together we had these tandem buses. They were I think eighty

think they were eighty eight passenger buses. Y you know, some of the buses, the older buses in Los Angeles, had like a accordion section to them and they had like a trailer and a front piece. Okay, so that's a tandem bus. Okay. So the the tourmobile looked like a smaller version of a street bus. It had, you know, thirty or four I don't remember exactly, it had forty seats or forty four seats in the back and forty seats in the front and it had a driver

Jonathan Green (38:04.747)
Yes, yes.

Terry Winnick (38:23.148)
And then next to the driver, like the trams at the studio, it had a tour guide who'd ride backwards.

Jonathan Green (38:28.438)
Okay.

Terry Winnick (38:30.366)
And and it had windows that popped out. So in the summertime when it was warm in Washington, in the spring and in the summer, we take the windows out of the tourmobile. And in the and in the wintertime when it was freezing cold and snowing, we put the windows in and they deheated. And our co we we won the contract to create this guided tour of

the Federal Mall and Arlington National Cemetery. So you could go there were fourteen or fifteen stops around the mall. You could get off at the Capitol, you could get off at the Smithsonian, you could get off at the Bureau of Engraving and Printing, you could get off at the Jefferson Memorial, you could get off at the Lincoln, you could get off at the White House, you could get off at the Washington Monument. Wow. You could get off at the visitor center in Arlington Cemetery.

And you could take a while you were on the bus you were getting a narrated tour. So for I think it was in those days it was like three or three and a half dollars. You could ride all day if you kept your ticket. So you'd get you could start at any one of the stops, buy a ticket, get on the bus, ride to the next stop, get off or bypass that stop and go to the next. You could go wherever you wanted, or you could just stay on the bus and go all the way around the mall and have a guided tour about the history of the

Jonathan Green (39:36.79)
She's

Terry Winnick (39:57.698)
mall and the museums and all that kind of stuff. And and then you'd get off at the visitors center and you change tourmobiles, you change buses, and then you could go to the Kennedy grave site, the Custis Lee Mansion, or the tomb of the unknown soldier, and while you were on the bus in the cemetery you would get a guided tour of Arlington National Cemetery. Wow. And then you could also leave from the cemetery

Jonathan Green (40:22.178)
Wow.

Terry Winnick (40:28.27)
and take a different bus and go all the way down the George Washington Parkway down the Potomac River to Mount Vernon, which was George Washington's home. Mm-hmm. And we operated that too. We operated the gift shop and we operated the tour down there. So you literally could take a t guided tour of the key sites in Washington DC if you were on the tour mobile.

Jonathan Green (40:58.324)
That's fascinating I had never heard that s any of that before. That's

Terry Winnick (41:01.048)
So that was that was our that was our introduction. We won that and the idea of winning that was that we were gonna once we proved that we were a good operator and that we were doing a good job for the park service, then they would let us sit on some of the other contracts that came up for the other national parks. And the first one that came up was Yosemite National Park. And I don't remember the exactly when we got it. I think it was like eighty two.

two or eighty three. We took over the Yosemite Park and Curry Company, which operated everything in Yosemite Valley except the Ansel Adams photo gallery. You know who Ansel Adams is? Okay. He had a little photo studio there in the valley. But there was a gas station, there was the Yosemite Lodge, there was the Awani, there was

Jonathan Green (41:45.708)
Hm. I d I do, yes.

Terry Winnick (41:59.33)
Badger Pass Lodge, there was Badger Pass ski resort, there was horseback riding trails up to the high country, there was all the campsites and the campgrounds. We operated, we owned the Yosemite Park and Curry Company and we got that. We got to bid on that and win it because

we started with the tourmobile and we were successful with the tourmobile in Washington DC. And and Tom Williams, who is now the chairman of the recreation group,

Jonathan Green (42:32.823)
Huh.

Terry Winnick (42:44.558)
Started in Yosemite. That's where he came from.

Jonathan Green (42:48.394)
interesting.

Terry Winnick (42:49.996)
And he started in Yosemite about the same time that your dad and I were tour guides at the studio in Hollywood.

Jonathan Green (42:59.809)
Hm.

Terry Winnick (43:01.538)
Wow. And then many, many years later

J. Stein, when we were building Florida, brought Tom from Yosemite to be the general manager of Universal Florida. And the original pres president of Universal Florida was Steve Liu, who previously had been the president of Universal Studios Hollywood. But he was not now just take a step back. So we had

Jonathan Green (43:31.55)
Mm.

Terry Winnick (43:38.082)
Dorskin in charge. Then we had Dorskin's secretary as the general manager. Then we had Roberta Ross that was the Dorskin secretary. She was the first and Barry Upson. Then Jay Stein. And then when Jay was general manager of the studio, he he hired a guy who was an efficiency expert. He was an engineer.

and he was an efficiency expert. His job was to review the operation of the tour, which was very small in those days. You know, a big day for us was like fifteen hundred, two thousand people. That was a huge day.

Jonathan Green (44:24.854)
Yeah.

Terry Winnick (44:27.318)
I mean in sixty sixty five, sixty six a really big day was like two thousand people. Yeah. That was in sixty eight in sixty eight we did

I think we did around ten thousand or twelve thousand people. We didn't know where to put We had a three hour wait at the ticket booth.

Jonathan Green (44:52.75)
Wow.

Terry Winnick (44:55.214)
And that's when the tool really that's when we started adding more trams and we so while we were buying trams and building trams with minibus back in sixty three, sixty four, sixty-five, we were buying them for minibus. In sixty nine, we bought minibus and we owned it. And so we were in a bus business.

Jonathan Green (45:22.102)
Hmm.

Terry Winnick (45:24.886)
And we sold buses to

To the Honolulu airport, you know, shuttle buses. Sure. They didn't necessarily look like trams. We sold trams to all kinds of people. We sold shuttle buses to airports. We were in the bus business. But we were primarily in the bus business so that we could control the production of the minibus trams that were the tour trams. Sure. The glamour trams.

And then when I was in Washington DC in seventy one

Terry Winnick (46:03.458)
the cemetery, we use the turmobile to take people on a tour through th around the Federal Mall, across the bridge to Arlington Cemetery, then they'd get off the one turmobile, they'd get on another turmobile, they'd ride through the cemetery, or they you'd get on a different turmobile and go down to Mount Vernon Inn. But in the summertime, the turmobiles weren't big enough

to handle the traffic in the cemetery. They were just overloaded and we didn't have enough tour mobiles to assign enough of them to the cemetery.

to handle the load and still be able to meet our we had to have didn't matter whether it was spring, summer, fall or winter, we had to have a bus pass every stop every I think it was every five minutes. Wow. On the hall. So rain or shine, snow or sleep, whatever. So in the summertime the the you know, the visitation in the spring for cherry blossom season and in the summertime, the visitation just like it does at theme parks

When it's good weather, people travel, people rise well, you know, Washington sees millions of visitors in the summertime, in the springtime, in the summertime. And so we had to make a decision and we made a decision that what we were gonna do is that we were gonna build a tram, an open tram like the studio tour trams, to to take people around Arlington Cemetery in the summer 'cause we could have

a longer tram and a bigger tram and they could carry more people than the tourmobiles could. Huh. Which all okay. So we started we had minibus build what we call the super tram.

Terry Winnick (48:03.742)
And the Super Tram was a four car train and it was much wider than the Glamour tram. And so that was the first attempt at a bigger vehicle, and we learned how much capacity they had and how successful we were in loading them quickly like we did at the studio. And so we added a fourth

Rather than building a bigger tram for the studio, we had first added a fourth car to every tramp. So the original glamour tramp in sixty eight, sixty nine, seventy, when your dad was a tour guide and I was a tour guide were three car trains. And then we added a fourth car to to get higher capacity. And then in like seventy

Jonathan Green (48:46.51)
Hmm.

Terry Winnick (49:01.11)
I think seventy five or seventy six we built the s the glu the giant tram that's now the tour tram, the the s it's there was a big bigger four car train and a much bigger tram and that was not built by minibus. The body was built by minibus but the engines were diesel engines from from I don't remember who built those. I just don't

And and so we learned from the cemetery in Washington DC that the bigger tram was just as easy to drive, could maneuver just as easily, would carry more people. And as the tour grew, first we added the fourth car to the three car trains, and then we built the giant tram that's now the the tour tram that you're used to seeing. Oops, let me see who's calling somebody's gonna I just let it go.

Jonathan Green (49:55.7)
Mm-hmm.

Terry Winnick (50:00.856)
So that was sort of the evolution of the of the tram ride.

Jonathan Green (50:10.134)
That's fascinating.

Terry Winnick (50:11.918)
and we used them in Yosemite as shuttle buses. We we built shuttle buses all over the place with w and we owned minibuses. I don't think they I I we sold minibuses.

But I don't remember what we we don't the studio doesn't own it anymore. But for a long time we were in the bus building business and we were in the in the tram building business because we were the biggest customer, you know. And and we went from I think we had thirteen glamour trams and then we went to nineteen and then we got up to twenty I think they had twenty four or twenty five total of the old pink and white

Jonathan Green (50:25.771)
I just don't.

Terry Winnick (50:53.654)
Lambertams and then we added the then we started over with the bigger train. But all of the attractions on the back lot, the collapsing bridge and

Jonathan Green (51:03.706)
Terry Winnick (51:05.39)
Start from Jaws and

Jonathan Green (51:08.714)
And

Terry Winnick (51:10.57)
Ice Tunnel, Doomed Glacier Expedition, whatever they called it. Those were all designed to handle the the smaller original glamour tram. And then when we built the the current trams, I think that came in like seventy

Well let's see. It came in the in eighty or eighty one because we were still using glamour trams.

to go into the Battlestar Galactica attraction and we built that in

Seventy nine or eighty.

Terry Winnick (51:54.286)
The rock slide was well, the original

The original original back lot set was an old house that was down by by

the lake where the river boat was. the river boat. Okay, do you know where the river boat was? Yes. And that was McHale's navy parked there, P T seventy three was parked down there and the river boat was there.

Jonathan Green (52:28.443)
from a creature from the black lagoon.

Terry Winnick (52:31.378)
a creature from the Black Lagoon was there. And that that lake I can't remember the name of that lake. I don't know what they call that lake. alongside that lake was an old house, a little chalet, and we put snow in front and snow on the roof, fake snow, and that was the first dressed set that we had permanently assigned to the tour.

Jonathan Green (52:33.324)
Okay, yes.

Terry Winnick (53:00.652)
And then alongside of that, just a little bit north of that house.

was a couple of big palm trees. and and we built this gorilla that would swing from tree to tree. It was actually on a cable. And and and you put the driver would push a button and the gorilla would go across, swing across from tree to tree. Sort of sorta hung across from tree to tree.

Jonathan Green (53:22.894)
Ha ha ha ha.

Terry Winnick (53:36.768)
And that was and that was a joke kind of a joke and you know, somebody would put polka dot shorts on the gorilla on one day or he'd be holding a bunch of bananas the next day. It was always a joke. But that was the first animation that we had on the back lot.

Jonathan Green (53:52.212)
Hmm, for something like that, 'cause I'm I'm glad you brought that up because I've I've only heard stories and I've only seen like one picture of that of the gorilla swinging back and forth. What was the inspiration behind that? Was it from okay.

Terry Winnick (54:05.108)
I have got a clue.

Terry Winnick (54:09.48)
I I really don't know. I mean it was just something I I think it was left over from some movie set. Yeah. And originally originally the back lot attractions were all built by the special effects department at the studio.

Jonathan Green (54:14.993)
Okay.

Jonathan Green (54:25.739)
interesting.

Terry Winnick (54:27.906)
So the mill, which was where Conan

sound stages now or you know, the tonight show stage or whatever it was. They're gonna have d if you went if you went in the main gate

you were you came in alongside the in those days you came in alongside the main gate and to your left was the MCA tower.

Jonathan Green (55:03.5)
Okay, yes.

Terry Winnick (55:05.302)
And to the right was a bunch of one and two story grey bungalows.

along Langerson Boulevard. And those were producers' offices and and various studio offices.

Jonathan Green (55:23.288)
Hmm.

Terry Winnick (55:24.122)
the sound department was down there, the film department was down there, the this is going from the main gate south towards the Texaco building. Okay. And on that site now is where the producer's building is, the white marble building. And and then that was on the that was on the very west side along Lancashire Boulevard.

Jonathan Green (55:45.845)
Okay, sure, yes.

Terry Winnick (55:54.124)
And there was a street between those bungalows and then there was the commissary where it is now. And then along the commissary were three I think they're still there. Three

Jonathan Green (56:01.858)
Okay. Mm-hmm.

Terry Winnick (56:13.726)
projection rooms. Projection room one, two and three.

Jonathan Green (56:18.312)
yes, yes. I okay, I know where that is.

Terry Winnick (56:20.8)
Okay. And then behind the commissary was the sound department and the film department. And alongside the commissary and alongside the sound, just if you went south from the commissary there were the three projection rooms, big screen rooms. And then alongside them were s a couple of two story wooden

They look like army barracks. And I think they may have been army barracks at one time. And those were production offices for like let's see who was down there.

Terry Winnick (57:08.396)
I can't think of their names. Roy Huggins was down there. He was the producer of Run for Your Life.

And

trying to remember who else was down there. the production offices for Battlestar Galactica and Buck Rogers and Agnum.

Jonathan Green (57:31.086)
Yeah.

Terry Winnick (57:36.418)
In those days it wasn't they weren't it was even earlier. It was Run for Your Life and the Virginian

Jonathan Green (57:42.222)
And

Terry Winnick (57:44.47)
And Wagon Train and Oregon Trail and and Adam Twelve and Dragnet. Jack Webb's office was down there.

Jonathan Green (57:56.08)
wow.

Terry Winnick (57:57.724)
Jack Webb's office was across across the street from the tower, directly to the east of the tower. It's called Bungalow it was Bungalow number one, which later the tour took over and used for product for promotion of Universal Studios Florida the first time we were gonna build Florida. That was a

Jonathan Green (58:04.341)
From that.

Terry Winnick (58:23.338)
mid seventies to late seventies.

Jonathan Green (58:25.486)
Hmm.

Terry Winnick (58:27.244)
And then so you know, sort of all over the map here, but

Jonathan Green (58:34.894)
It's okay.

Terry Winnick (58:39.416)
So you'd the tram, let's go back to where we were, the tram would would come down the hill past the fire station, then it would stop and you'd get off and you'd go into men's feature wardrobe and then you'd see the movie stars bungalows and then you'd get back on the tram and you could go to a sound stage.

And you could go to any sound states that was available to us. And later in

Terry Winnick (59:13.346)
Maybe seventy.

Two no seventy six

Jonathan Green (59:23.042)
Yeah.

Jonathan Green (59:34.71)
I'm gonna be full of her.

Terry Winnick (59:38.636)
I mean.

Terry Winnick (59:45.536)
Yeah, maybe seventy two. Maybe se by seventy two, maybe seventy one or seventy two, we took over sound stage thirty two.

Jonathan Green (59:47.051)
Two.

Jonathan Green (59:55.662)
Hmm.

Terry Winnick (01:00:00.666)
And stage thirty two was the home before that of a number of different shows simultaneously, but it was the it was the home of Ironside.

Jonathan Green (01:00:15.617)
okay.

Terry Winnick (01:00:17.527)
With Raymond Burr.

And we took that over permanently. So the trams would stop. You wouldn't stop at the makeup department and you wouldn't stop by the fire station and you wouldn't stop by the men's feature wardrobe. You wouldn't get out and walk. You'd come around, come around past, you'd come down the hill, you'd pass the the fire station, then you'd pass the make up department.

Jonathan Green (01:00:34.35)
Bye.

Terry Winnick (01:00:49.494)
You pass men's feature wardrobe on your left and you pass the dressing rooms on your right. Shirley McLean had a dressing room in there on your right from

Sweet Cherry and then you turn right at the first intersection and on your left would be was a new bungalow complex that Robert we built for Robert Blake. Remember when he was doing Beretta. Beretta, yes. And that's where Fred Decockatsu came from. And then and then and he was in the makeup show because Ray Burworth trained him, and then

Jonathan Green (01:01:04.408)
Sure.

Jonathan Green (01:01:26.008)
Yeah.

Terry Winnick (01:01:32.064)
Next door to Robert Blake was a couple of other little bungalows and that they'd switch off they'd switch off

Terry Winnick (01:01:42.69)
movie stars and television stars, whoever was was there at the time, you know, shooting, they'd use those. And on the opposite side, on the backs there were it was like when you came around the corner and you went past the fire station, then past makeup you were making a turn, you were turning to the right. Mm-hmm. And now you're heading before you were heading north down the hill, now you're heading east down this road, past

First the fire station, then then make up, then you'd c continue making the turn and you'd pass men's wardrobe on your left, and you'd pass the dressing rooms on your right. Well the dressing rooms on the right were actually a double row of dressing rooms. So the front doors of those dressing rooms faced towards men's feature wardrobe and towards the tram. And on the back side of those was a series of other bungalows. And Raymond Burr had a bungalow in there.

And and Robert what the hell was his name? Robert Taylor. Rod Taylor, Ryan Taylor, who who was the star of the movie Hotel. yeah the original movie Hotel. Yes. Which later became a television series that I think James Brolin starred in. And and Rod Taylor had a show called Oregon Trail. And his bungalow was over there, Raymond Burr's bungalow bungalow was over there.

Jonathan Green (01:02:44.694)
Yeah.

Jonathan Green (01:03:01.942)
Yeah.

Terry Winnick (01:03:12.242)
And Edith Head's offices were there. Remember Edith Head?

Jonathan Green (01:03:16.108)
Okay.

Yes.

Terry Winnick (01:03:21.632)
And then on and then those faced onto a big parking lot. And that's where the trams would park. You could put six or eight, ten trams in that area side by side and back to back. And then on the opposite side of that parking lot was the props department.

Terry Winnick (01:03:45.076)
And so you'd get off the tram, you'd walk through it was in those days Lana Turner's dressing.

Jonathan Green (01:03:55.947)
okay.

Terry Winnick (01:03:58.422)
Hm.

Lucille Ball never actually was in that dressing room, but she allowed us to use she was good friends with Herb Steinberg, who was our vice president of productive marketing and a special assistant to Lou Wasserman and he arranged to use Lucille Ball's name on that dressing room. So we had her c costumes in there, we had some of her dresses, we had a lot of pictures of her and Desi and Lucy and Lucy Junior and Desi Junior.

And so you'd get off your tram, you'd walk through what was then Lana Turner's dressing room, and then you'd go be out the back side of it, and then you'd go into stage thirty two. So that was the first permanent dressing room and sound stage for the tour. And I think that was probably sixty nine.

Jonathan Green (01:04:54.97)
wow.

Terry Winnick (01:05:05.666)
And then you'd go into stage thirty two and there'd be permanent sets in there that that were originally just empty sets and then or they may be dressed with some props. And then we started building permanent sets in there so that we could have some you know, we could have a fire in the fireplace that would that would light and you could change the lighting from day to night by throwing a switch. And and you could

Jonathan Green (01:05:18.966)
Yeah.

Jonathan Green (01:05:32.376)
Yeah.

Terry Winnick (01:05:34.69)
We had some matte paintings from Al Whitlock, who was a very famous matte artist in those days. Yeah, and so we started to have some permanent sets.

Jonathan Green (01:05:45.198)
Wow.

Terry Winnick (01:05:47.242)
And then we'd still go to other sound stages in the summertime when it was really busy we would use more than one sound stage because we couldn't didn't have enough capacity by sixty eight or sixty nine because we were doing, you know, like I told you, ten, twelve thousand people on a peak day. So we'd go to stage twenty eight sometimes with our some of the tour guides would take you through stage thirty two and some of the tour guides would take you to stage twenty six or twenty eight or twenty four.

And you know, w we were shooting this show called H R. Puffin stuff.

Jonathan Green (01:06:22.641)
yes.

Terry Winnick (01:06:25.624)
Okay, and when we were shooting puff and stuff then we'd go to the puff and stuff states. So you'd walk through state th thirty two and then you'd walk over I don't remember what number it was, twenty four, twenty five, you'd go into the puffin stuff states and 'cause we were trying to promote puff.

Jonathan Green (01:06:40.046)
Now when when they when you would take these groups into the sound stages, would you have multiple groups in the same sound stage?

Terry Winnick (01:06:50.83)
Yeah, you have two or three groups and it was loud and noisy and the guys would be yelling over each other's voices.

Yeah, yeah, I mean what you could be in the sound stage. You could be standing there for an hour, you know. Or more. And and you go through you'd be standing in front there were st y you'd get off the tram and the guide would take you and he would I I mean I remember standing on a a box, you know, like a step a wooden step, talking to my group is in front of the dressing room.

Then you'd move then they'd give you a signal and you'd move through the dressing room and you'd come out on the back side of the dressing room and you'd stand on the wall which was between the dressing room and stage thirty two and you could stand there for fifteen or twenty minutes and have to talk. And then you'd be told to go in the sound stage and then there were three sets in the sound stage and you could stand on each one of those for twenty minutes or so. So you might be at the sound stage for an hour and a half and the guide had

Jonathan Green (01:07:45.58)
Ha ha ha.

Terry Winnick (01:07:57.198)
There were no props, there was no animation, there was no film. Yeah, I mean there was no computers in those days, there were no laptops, and I mean IBM didn't even have a you know, PC in those days. Wow. So all that stuff was anything we did was controlled by switches to on off or by cam timers that were, you know, you could use they were really cheap and expensive and there was no a there was no computers. Nobody ever heard of that kind of

Terry Winnick (01:08:29.72)
You know, it does it it didn't exist. It hadn't been invented yet.

Jonathan Green (01:08:31.619)
Wow.

Jonathan Green (01:08:36.149)
You know. That's crazy. That's wow.

Terry Winnick (01:08:41.451)
I mean, you know, it was I mean a it just you know, it it it didn't exist. So y but you might be you might stand in the sun down there on the sound stage for an hour, an hour and a half. You might take that long. So now you've been on the tram ten minutes to get from the top of the hill past the dump, past the hole in the ground that was ultimately gonna be the amphitheater, down to the fire station, around the corner to the

to the parking lot where the tram's unloaded by between you know the dressing rooms and the prop warehouse. And then you could be down there for an an hour, an hour and a half. So now you've been on the tram, say, let's call it an hour and a half, just for drill. Then you'd come out of the sound stage finally. And you get back on the tram and the tram would leave

Jonathan Green (01:09:19.542)
Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Green (01:09:29.538)
Okay.

Jonathan Green (01:09:34.818)
Ha ha ha.

Terry Winnick (01:09:40.852)
And it would drive through the prop warehouse. There was like a tunnel between the warehouse buildings. And you'd drive through the prop warehouse and see the props. They'd just be, you know, chandeliers hanging everywhere and, you know, wooden Indians and furniture and crap. And then you'd come out and you'd be on this it was a a road, but

I don't remember the number of those sound stages anymore. I think it was twenty-four, twenty three, twenty-four, twenty-five, somewhat. Maybe it was I don't remember. I'll have to go back and look. But i it would the road that you came at the prop warehouse was about eight feet above the road below there was a wall. Think of it as a wall with a road on top of it.

Jonathan Green (01:10:35.04)
Okay.

Terry Winnick (01:10:36.598)
It was higher up. There was a a steep when you left when you went past stage thirty two, when you got to the end of stage thirty two there was a steep road that went down maybe ten feet and then it continued. And that's where the other sound stages were and there were dressing rooms above those sound stages and alongside those sound stages that were raised above the road. So two story dressing rooms, okay?

And then there was a wall. And on top of that wall, which was about eight or ten feet high, was the prop warehouse building. And then built into the prop warehouse building and facing those sound stages and dressing rooms to the north was the staff shop, which is like the plaster shop. And the paint shop.

Jonathan Green (01:11:31.466)
okay.

Terry Winnick (01:11:35.662)
So they'd build, you know, fiberglass or p plaster you know, statue, let's say, and then the they'd make it in the staff shop and then they'd paint it in the paint shop. Or if they were painting a car for to look like a police car, it would be done in the paint shop. And then you'd continue to the

east, if you go in east then you'd come out of the prop warehouse, you'd make a a right turn and you'd go along this embankment, this road on top of the wall, and you drop down and then you were in the transportation department, which is where the mill is now. The the three or four story mill building. Okay. Okay. The big gray mill building. I don't know if it's still gray, but it was gray in those days. But in those days the mill wasn't there.

Jonathan Green (01:12:22.878)
Okay. Yes.

Terry Winnick (01:12:31.906)
The mill was along the LA River, up front close to the

to the main gate. between it was Technic Color Building was on the north side of the LA River and the Mill Mill Road was on the south side of the LA River and then Sound Stage One and Jack Web's Pungalow and some post production buildings were next to that going south and then there was a the main entrance road.

which continued all the way back towards the prop warehouse and then the commissary was on the other side of the street and then the bungalows that I described to you before. Yes. For the producers. Okay. And then at the far south end was a parking lot called the the South Lot.

Jonathan Green (01:13:28.19)
Mm.

Terry Winnick (01:13:32.308)
And then across that was where and then that bordered on the tram road, the main entrance to the tour hill. And on the opposite side of that was another parking lot, which is where the Texaco building is now.

Jonathan Green (01:13:47.373)
Mm-hmm.

Terry Winnick (01:13:49.228)
Follow me.

Jonathan Green (01:13:49.89)
Yes, yes. Okay.

Terry Winnick (01:13:53.198)
So you'd come off of Lancashire Boulevard and on your right was a parking lot and on your left was the parking lot, the south lot. Then you'd climb the hill and there was another parking lot which is where the Sheridan Universal is. Okay. And then you go a little further north and on the left side was another parking lot which was I think called the Laramie lot, which is where the parking structure is and Fun Lum restaurant.

Jonathan Green (01:14:22.811)
okay, sure.

Terry Winnick (01:14:24.47)
Okay, and then on the right was the lower parking lot, I can't remember the A lot we called it, I think. The H lot, H lot or the A lot. That's where the Hilton is now. And then the toll booths were there. Then you drive through the toll booths and you'd make a you'd climb the hill a little more and then you make a big left turn and you'd be in the main parking lot. And then you could park and then you'd walk.

Jonathan Green (01:14:38.519)
Hmm.

Terry Winnick (01:14:54.542)
towards the ticket booth which is where the entrance to the tour is now. Mm-hmm and where City Walk is now. Okay. And then you'd come to this

entrance building where the boat was that the the information booth booth the boat was in the middle of it mm and then adjacent to that was a wall and i it was just a wood wall and on the other side of that wall was a whole bunch of trailers just ten by fifty white rented kind of you know the kind an office portable office trailers.

Jonathan Green (01:15:27.774)
Yeah.

Jonathan Green (01:15:35.395)
Mm-hmm.

Terry Winnick (01:15:36.546)
And that was the office complex for the tour. That's where accounting was and administration and the general manager's office and personnel. That was all in that behind that wall. And then there was the farm and the tour center where the stunt show the farm and then the stunt show out on the inn. And then there was the thing called

Cafe de Mexico, which was a Mexican restaurant that had a little patio out looking out over the hill. And then next to that was an artist kind of gallery.

Jonathan Green (01:16:21.222)
Terry Winnick (01:16:23.266)
Where there would be a portrait artist that could draw your picture with chalk, you know. And then there was a camera shop. And then there was the snow set.

And then next to that was what we called the puppet palace because Tony Urbano and his marionettes were in there.

Jonathan Green (01:16:44.905)
Ha ha ha.

Terry Winnick (01:16:46.816)
And then across from that was the No, in between the Snowset and the Puppet Palace was Hong K was Hong Kong ha no, let's see Flower Drum Cafe.

Jonathan Green (01:17:01.762)
Well okay.

Terry Winnick (01:17:04.256)
And then across the street from that was a little restaurant called Hong Kong Haddies, which was a which was a a snack bar and you could buy a beer there. That was the only place you could buy a beer. And then next to that was the makeup building with Tom Gigandi who was the makeup artist and he you'd walk in and you'd stand up and there was a raised section in there

And he would pick a lady out of the audience and do glamour makeup on it. And then Hong Kong Haddies had a tin roof. And on top of that roof were some sprinklers. And so there would be a there was a constant rainstorm going on and that water would fall into the lake, the little lake there. And and there was a torpedo there was a a

couple of miniature navy boats. So it was a submarine and and a destroyer and the destroyer every few minutes would fire a gun, its guns off at the submarine. It wouldn't hit it. But there'd be an explosion in the lake. And then there was the warlord tower. And that was the way out. So you'd off you'd you'd get on your tram, you'd walk

at the entrance you'd walk down a ramp, the tram would there was a big circle. The tram would be sitting there, you'd get on the tram, you'd leave, you'd go down the hill, then you'd come back the same way into that circle. The tram would drop you off into the Roman courtyard from Spartacus and then it would pull around and and load and leave again. So the tram just made a big circle.

Jonathan Green (01:18:57.432)
Hmm.

Terry Winnick (01:18:59.32)
Wow. And the queue line went up and over that drop off where you'd get off to get into the courtyard. When you walked in the courtyard there were some torches and a couple of chariots and stuff. And then you'd be at the on your right would be the puppet palace. On your left was part of the lake and the warlord tower. Then past the puppet palace on your right would be Flower Drum Cafe. Then the Snow set.

Then the film stand, film shop, then the artist shop, then Hong Kong, and then then the Cafe de Mexico, then the stunt show. Next to that was the an the farm, old McDonald's farm for the animal show. And then you'd come around the corner, you'd be making a it would be a dead end like a big loop. Past the animal next to the animal show was the makeup building.

attached to the makeup building was Hong Kong Hattie. Then there was a sort of an open area where you could overlook the lake and then there was the Warlord Tower. And when you wanted to leave the upper lot where the stunt show was and the animal show was, the the restaurants and the makeup show, then you'd go out along the the Warlord Tower and around it and then you'd be back in the lobby and you'd go out the same way you came in.

Jonathan Green (01:20:28.94)
Wow. Wow.

Terry Winnick (01:20:31.106)
Now that was the tour center. Now that's really taking my memory back a long way.

Jonathan Green (01:20:40.462)
That's fascin I seriously, I I have not heard of ninety five percent of what you what you just said, so that that is incredible stuff.

Terry Winnick (01:20:48.8)
Yeah, that's I mean that that was the tour center. Wow. And your dad I was one of the first announcers for the shows.

That was and that was purely by luck that you know, somebody got sick, whoever was announcing the shows and I was a tour guide and they they said, Hey, go down there and announce the stunt show, you know. And and so I did, you know, and I guess I did a good enough job that the next day they said, Go back and do it again. Pretty soon I I was off trams and announcing shows and then I became the guide foreman and I was dispatching the tour guides.

Jonathan Green (01:21:29.379)
Hmm.

Terry Winnick (01:21:30.498)
And then I occasionally would run down and announce the show. And then your dad later followed me. He he became the show announcer for a

Jonathan Green (01:21:37.676)
long time. Wow. That's that's serious that that is a lot

Terry Winnick (01:21:44.366)
You wouldn't announce wouldn't announce the makeup show. You would announce the puppet show. So you'd go you'd run in and you'd announce good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the you know Universal Puppet Palace or whatever to call it a puppet theater. Today we have Tony Urbano and his marionettes. Tony Urbano is famous for blah blah blah, whatever shows he was on, he's been seen in this, that, and the other thing. Then you'd leave there immediately and you'd go down and announce the stun show.

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the Universal Stunt Team. Today we're proud to introduce some of the stunt men who do the famous stunts that you see in motion pictures and on television. And you know, and there was there was always a guest star like Terry Wilson from Wagon Train or X Brands who was an Indian actor or Jay Silver Heels who was, you know, Tonto from The Lone Ranger.

Jonathan Green (01:22:41.31)
Thank you.

Terry Winnick (01:22:42.112)
Or Ben Cooper, who was a stuntman actor at the time. There was always some, you know, guest star and then our permanent stuntman. And then he'd run next door after the stunt show and you'd say good afternoon again, ladies and gentlemen, 'cause it would be the same guy doing the same same announcer and you'd say, you know, welcome to the animal show

Jonathan Green (01:22:50.605)
Hm.

Terry Winnick (01:23:05.834)
And today we're proud to introduce Ray Berwick, who is the you know, trainer for the birds and little house on the prairie or whatever it was. Wow. And then and then you wouldn't down for the makeup show and then you'd go back and do the puppet show and then you'd run down and do the animal show and then you'd do the sun show and you know. And then maybe you'd go out and take a tour out for four hours. But the tours in those days, the tram tour in those days lasted four hours.

Jonathan Green (01:23:30.38)
Wow.

Terry Winnick (01:23:32.482)
Wow. So the first ten minutes was to get from the hill down to the sound stage. The second hour and a half or so was in the sound stage area. And then the last part of it was the guided tour through the back lot and then you'd get dropped off at at the tour center and you'd spend an hour two seeing the shows and then you'd leave.

Jonathan Green (01:24:00.748)
Wow.

Terry Winnick (01:24:03.318)
The the tram tour was supposed to take about two and a half to three hours, but when it was busy in the summertime and there were big wakes everywhere. We didn't have enough trams. It could take longer. and while you were on the tram tour you'd go, you know, you go through so you'd go you'd leave the downstage, you go through the prop warehouse and you go through the transportation department and then

Jonathan Green (01:24:28.374)
Mm-hmm.

Terry Winnick (01:24:30.636)
depending upon what was shooting and where, most likely you'd climb the hill to prop plaza. You know what that is? Okay, and then you'd go it's you'd there were two levels to prop plaza in those days. Well three levels. And you'd go you'd come up the hill and you'd be on the lower level, which is where you'd leave from if you're gonna go on the rest of the tour. So you'd pass the people standing in line to get on the tram to go on the second part of their tour.

Jonathan Green (01:24:36.596)
Yes.

Terry Winnick (01:25:00.766)
You'd climb around the backside of Prop Plaza, sort of making a U turn. And you'd drop people off on the top level of Prop Plaza and there was big food stand. Didn't have a name, you had Pro Plaza food stand. You had a big food stand up there and you had the summer houses.

Some are for men and some are for women. And and then you had a gift shop and then you had a bunch of props. You had these you had a stagecoach with a moving backdrop behind it that was on rollers that you know, as you were riding in the stage it would shake and backdrop would run past you. Remember in those days there was no computer animation, there was no computer generated film, there were no computers.

There was so i p they were called process cars in those days. So you'd have a a rear projection screen behind the w the car windows, whether they were on the side of the car or the front of the car or the back of the car, depending upon the camera angle, mm-hmm and you'd show a movie on it. Or you'd have a painted backdrop that was on rollers and a motor and would sort of roll by you. That's the way they made it. And then the car would have or the r the stagecoach would have

rocker arms underneath and it would be, you know, it would rock while you were the backdrop was going by you. We had a giant hand from the Incredible Shrinking Man. We had some pencils, giant pencils, and we had we had an old tank from All Quiet on the Western Front. We had the war wagon from John Wayne's movie The War Wagon. So you'd walk down from the top level to

to the bottom and when you got to the bottom level of Pro Plaza there was a Q line there. And then you'd get on a tram which had just dropped you off. It would pick up another group. So maybe five trams later you would get on another tram and then you would head down the hill towards the back lot, down down the hill to the where the flash flood is.

Terry Winnick (01:27:08.972)
What was that now where that car they have some cars in there, or some the cars movie, I don't know what that thing is called.

Jonathan Green (01:27:15.706)
the fast and the furious?

Terry Winnick (01:27:18.188)
Yeah, yeah, right. That was that's where the flash flood was. well I think the flash flood is still there. Yeah. Okay, so then you'd come down the hill, you'd go down the hill and get to where the flight the flash flood wasn't there in those days. Then you'd go into old Mexico and you'd come out of old Mexico and you'd be in I think six points, Texas.

Jonathan Green (01:27:24.792)
Yes, Flash Flood is still there, yes.

Jonathan Green (01:27:35.566)
Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Green (01:27:41.806)
Yes. Yep.

Terry Winnick (01:27:44.426)
And then you'd cross the railroad tracks and eventually we built this thing called the runaway train there. The barn there was a horse barn which really had horses in it in those days because we were shooting a Virginian and wagon train and raw hide. And then you'd be back at the lake where the river boat was and then you'd make a right turn and you'd head out towards Europe.

And then you'd come back down I don't remember that whether it was Laramie Street, it was another street, Western Street. You go through Europe and old Europe and the cobblestone streets, and then you'd come into the Western Street and then you'd make another left turn back over the railroad tracks, and now you're heading up towards what was called Singapore Lake, and that's where Jaw is.

Jonathan Green (01:28:40.62)
But okay.

Terry Winnick (01:28:42.38)
And then you'd climb the hill past Singapore Lake and on your left would be the psycho house.

Terry Winnick (01:28:52.018)
And on your right was that was that lake with the river boat was called Park Lake.

Jonathan Green (01:28:57.646)
Park like yes, yes. Now that you say that

Terry Winnick (01:29:00.056)
Park Lake and Singapore Lake where Jaws is and then there was Falls Lake, which had a waterfall at th in those days, was just past the cycle house and further south from Singapore Lake where Jaws is. So now you'd be in the wilderness area and then you'd be on this long stretch of climb back up towards the tour center, and that's where we built the Dune Glacier expedition.

Jonathan Green (01:29:29.119)
Okay.

Terry Winnick (01:29:30.582)
the ice tunnel. Okay, and then you'd come around the corner from the you'd leave you'd come around the corner from the ice tunnel and you'd be back at the tour center.

Jonathan Green (01:29:31.864)
Tunnel, yes.

Jonathan Green (01:29:41.665)
Okay.

Terry Winnick (01:29:43.341)
Okay.

Jonathan Green (01:29:45.12)
So kind of the same r kinda the same route they still have today.

Terry Winnick (01:29:49.794)
same kind of route that you have today, but it was you know, it was the things look different than they they do now. But so that would take you from from the South States to Crop Plaza was about

Jonathan Green (01:29:56.194)
Sure.

Terry Winnick (01:30:07.938)
Well depending upon which street you went down, you'd go down forgot the name of the street. You'd go down a a a street where they had the Harvey House. Harvey Colonial Street, yeah. You'd you'd come out you'd come off the the hill, the road from the painting and refinishing department, and then you'd be heading towards transportation.

Jonathan Green (01:30:19.636)
a colonial.

Terry Winnick (01:30:37.454)
And you could either go through transportation or you could go into Colonial Street. And then you'd come out of Colonial Street and and you'd either go through New York Street and then up the hill or you'd go straight through transportation and then up the hill. And then depending upon what was shooting, you'd come down the hill into old Mexico, past where the flag flood is, then into old Mexico, then into the western streets.

Jonathan Green (01:30:42.179)
Mm.

Terry Winnick (01:31:05.28)
It just depended upon the day of the week and the what was shooting. And then but that from Prop Plaza to the top of the hill was about a half an hour.

Jonathan Green (01:31:08.878)
Sure.

Jonathan Green (01:31:17.586)
okay.

Terry Winnick (01:31:18.912)
Okay, and from the prop warehouse to Pro Plaza was about fifteen minutes. So you'd you were, you know, an hour and a half, let's say, in the sound stage, ten minutes to get to the stage, so now you're an hour and forty minutes, then another ten minutes to get to Prop Plaza, so you're you know, an hour and fifty minutes, then a half hour to Pro Plaza, so now you're two hours and

ten minutes or two hours and twenty minutes and then thirty minutes from Prop Live to the tour center, so now you're three hours. That was the normal tram ride. But you could be out there for four in the summertime depending upon how busy we were. Okay.

Jonathan Green (01:32:03.296)
Man.

Yeah.

Terry Winnick (01:32:08.224)
Then you'd get dropped off at the tour center and you could spend, you know, an hour or an hour and a half in those days seeing the shows and eating something and then you'd leave. So your your day at the tour was between three and six hours.

Jonathan Green (01:32:22.432)
Wow. Wow. That's that's crazy. When when Flash Flood was introduced, what was

Terry Winnick (01:32:32.238)
Yeah, that was like seventy.

Terry Winnick (01:32:37.059)
Seventy one was the rock slide.

Jonathan Green (01:32:40.592)
okay.

Terry Winnick (01:32:41.378)
So seventy

No, seventy two was the rot flood. So maybe seventy was the flash flood. Seventy one. Seventy one the flash flood. Seventy was parting of the Red Sea.

Terry Winnick (01:33:01.298)
sixty nine or seventy. The first real effect that we had was the the snow set. Then the next one was the guerrilla and those were about the same time. Then the next one was the submarine torpedo attack in Park Lake. And then the next one was which was like a submarine would surface and then the it would fire a torpedo and it would explode at the tram.

Jonathan Green (01:33:17.261)
Hmm.

Terry Winnick (01:33:29.966)
Then the next one was the parting of the Red Sea.

Jonathan Green (01:33:35.192)
Hmm.

Terry Winnick (01:33:36.726)
Then the next one was the flash floor.

Jonathan Green (01:33:39.276)
Was there an inspiration behind the flash float or was it just we wanted to show you a a special

Terry Winnick (01:33:43.53)
No special effect. It was just a special effect. Okay. But the idea was the whole idea of animating the back lot was that it was boring because

I'm just it's my number, okay. Sixty percent of the time there was nothing shooting out.

Jonathan Green (01:34:04.108)
Hmm.

Terry Winnick (01:34:05.376)
In the wintertime they weren't shooting out, very rarely shooting outdoors. In the summertime you never got to see a lot of shooting 'cause the street would be blocked off. You could see it from a distance. But it just it was boring and so we w started we were so busy that we wanted to start animating things and doing stuff to keep you entertained on the tram ride.

Jonathan Green (01:34:27.318)
Ha ha ha.

Terry Winnick (01:34:28.502)
And so we you know started to introduce and they were very rudimentary because there was no computers, remember? Nobody even thought about animation in those days. And they cost nothing because we didn't have any money.

Jonathan Green (01:34:40.533)
Ha ha ha ha.

Terry Winnick (01:34:42.102)
You know, spend to spend a hundred and fifty million dollars in you know, nineteen ninety on Back to the Future as compared to, you know, the the collapsing bridge which I built in nineteen seventy four cost four hundred and seventy five thousand dollars.

Jonathan Green (01:34:59.746)
Ha ha ha.

Terry Winnick (01:35:01.824)
And back to the future which I built in nineteen eighty nine in pol in Florida or ninety cost a hundred and fifty million dollars.

Jonathan Green (01:35:13.268)
Terry Winnick (01:35:15.394)
So you can see how how we sort of grew up.

Jonathan Green (01:35:18.798)
Fast too. I mean that's that's that's not a long period of time.

Terry Winnick (01:35:23.318)
But remember, in nineteen eighty in nineteen eighty or seventy nine, I can't remember, I think it was seventy nine. I my you know, my dates are a little off, but they're not too far. It wasn't eighty one, it was eighty or seventy nine. We built Battlestar Galactica, right?

Jonathan Green (01:35:44.205)
Yes.

Terry Winnick (01:35:46.217)
And and

That was the most sophisticated thing we had ever done. I still have the license from the Bureau of Radiological Health in Washington DC to install the world's world's first permanent laser exhibition.

Jonathan Green (01:36:10.808)
Is that right? Wow.

Terry Winnick (01:36:14.99)
No one the lasers were around but they were sort of you know, a an anomaly and they were a big you know, they'd use them at the baseball games or the you know, football games or whatever and that was a big deal. And and and no one had ever built one permanent and no one had ever tried to put people in the middle of

Jonathan Green (01:36:37.166)
Ha.

Terry Winnick (01:36:38.804)
And the computer for that to run it had to be hand built. Dr. Shondor Hawley, S A N D O R. Shondor Hawley. Doctor Hawley was the head of the laser physics laboratory at Rocket Time in Canoga Park. And he moonlighted he was in charge of the moonshot laser, you know, the Star Wars laser system for the government.

Jonathan Green (01:36:57.816)
Sure.

Jonathan Green (01:37:04.812)
Yes. Yes, yes.

Terry Winnick (01:37:07.948)
Moonlighted, he's still alive, he's still a friend. He moonlighted from Rocket Dine and built in his garage the computer and the laser system for Battlestar Galactica. And the computer that he built was as big well, I don't know how I don't know. I haven't been here at the guy's house. You you may not even live in the same place you used to, but it's been, you know, thirty years since I said but

Jonathan Green (01:37:20.972)
Ha ha ha.

Terry Winnick (01:37:34.786)
But it's probably it was probably as big as your dining room.

Jonathan Green (01:37:38.39)
Wow, whoa.

Terry Winnick (01:37:41.088)
It took a whole room of comput of s of stuff to to build a computer. And you had to program the chip the individual chips for the computer. You had to put on this this burning device. That's you had to burn in the chip so and you had to use binary code. So you have a series of switches that had a memory to it.

Jonathan Green (01:38:06.188)
Hmm.

Terry Winnick (01:38:10.762)
And you'd you'd say, Okay, I want the robot's arm to go up, down, then left and right. And so you'd you'd write the code zero one zero zero one zero one one and you'd throw these switches and you'd take this chip that was about the size maybe it looked like a it looked like a beetle. You know. It had prawns hanging out the bottom and it was black plastic on the top.

Jonathan Green (01:38:24.557)
Ha ha.

Terry Winnick (01:38:40.13)
and you'd put it in this device and you'd clamp it down and God forbid you had any static electricity in your fingers. Because you'd door circuit the chip. And then you'd throw the switches for ten or twelve switches which were the zero one zero one one or z one zero one zero or one zero one one. And you'd write the code for this.

And it would burn it into the chip and then you'd put the chip into the computer and the computer would read the chip and cause the arm to go up and down or left and right. And if you didn't have the right switches or your code was a little off, instead of going left and right and then up and down, it would go right and left and then down and up. But you'd have to go back and burn a new chip and start all over.

Jonathan Green (01:39:29.55)
Whoa.

Terry Winnick (01:39:31.318)
And I had guys I had a guy named Alvaro Via who had worked on Mr. Lincoln at Disney. He was part of Wet or Mapo, I guess he was part of Mapo. Okay. At Disney that built original animation for the Pirates of the Caribbean and Mr. Lincoln and stuff. And he had left Disney and he had a little shop in a garage on an alley up in Burbank.

And I gave him his first job away from Disney building the robots the Cylon robots for the for the Battlestar Galactica attraction and I had a guy named John Adams who was an electrician, part time computer programmer at Disney, also at Mapo, who was a friend of Alvaro's and he moonlighted he worked for Disney during the day and then I had a trailer that I lived in at Battlestar Galactica during the

time we were building it and he would come in the trailer at night with this board that had the chip burning device on it and we'd sit there and program the chip and then run in and see if it worked.

Jonathan Green (01:40:40.866)
Wow.

Terry Winnick (01:40:45.39)
There was no I mean this was we were we were creating history while we were doing. All of this was breaking new ground. Every I mean the collapsing bridge, the the the first real the f all the studio built the flash flood, they built the the parting of the Red Sea, they built the guerrilla, they decorated the snow set. The first attraction that had ever been built

by other than the studio special effects department was the box slide and that was in nineteen seventy two.

Terry Winnick (01:41:23.798)
And that was that was a bunch of elev old Oliver and Williams elevator company.

We used elevator hydraulic cylinders. They were six inch cylinders and eight inch cylinders to to build the rock site, which I I I could tell you about each one of the attractions and all the things we went through but we can do that on another phone call. But that was breaking new ground. They were all runoff cam timers. There was no computer. There was no computer. There was no way to fucking program it 'cause there was no computer.

So you'd say, you know, the at ten seconds into the attraction the bucket would dump. And at thirty seconds into the attraction the the bucket would straighten out and the rocks would roll down the hill. And at sixty seconds the tr the rocks would stop rolling and and at seventy five seconds the catch bucket at the bottom of the rock slide hill would raise up and then the next at eighty seconds it would start climbing the hill and it and it

a hundred and ten seconds it would dump and at a hundred and thirty seconds it would drop back down and it would run back down the hill and at one hundred and sixty seconds it would go back in the hole. And that was all on timers. No computer.

Jonathan Green (01:42:43.682)
That is great.

Terry Winnick (01:42:47.372)
God forbid the timers got out of sync or they were slowed down or there was a short or, you know, power failure. You were screwed.

Jonathan Green (01:42:57.048)
That is incredible.

Terry Winnick (01:42:58.882)
The first attraction that really had a a computer was Battlestar Galactica in seventy nine and that was a hand built there was no in nineteen seventy nine there was no laptop computer, there was no IPM PC, there was no Mac five twelve. They hadn't been invented yet.

Jonathan Green (01:43:19.406)
How long did that take you to build the Battlestar Galactica attraction?

Terry Winnick (01:43:25.24)
six months. Well, in those days, huh, we would get a f we would start thinking about what we were gonna do next year. About this time of year. So Jay Stein would be looking at dailies or he'd be looking at the call sheets or be reading scripts in his spare time

Jonathan Green (01:43:26.508)
Wow.

Jonathan Green (01:43:37.847)
Okay.

Terry Winnick (01:43:51.744)
Or he'd be talking to the other vice presidents or he'd be talking to Joe Hyatt, who was the head of production in those days. And he'd say, What are you shooting? you know. Well, we're shooting Airport. Okay, well can I have the script? And he would send me the script for Airport and I'd read it and and I'd say he'd say, Let's see what kind of attraction we can make out of this movie.

And so, you know, we said, Well, the airport would make a good screen test theater kind of show

Jonathan Green (01:44:23.022)
Mm-hmm.

Terry Winnick (01:44:24.938)
And so then we'd start laying out what we thought we were gonna do and so from September to about December we'd be conceptualizing the attraction. And then Jay would take it to the budget meetings with Wasserman and and Dr. Steiner Wasserman and Sid Scheinberg when Wasserman became chairman and Sid Scheinberg became president and they would say, Well, how much is that gonna cost you?

Jonathan Green (01:44:51.0)
Yeah.

Terry Winnick (01:44:51.82)
You know, and then they'd fight about the budget and they'd say, Okay, well you can have, you know, five hundred thousand dollars, that's it. And so Jay would say, All right, you got a half a million bucks build airport, you know, build something around airport, and then that would get approved and the budget would become available January the first. And then you'd have to have it finished by June the fifteenth when school was out. And you better have it done a few weeks earlier so you could shoot the commercial and put it on the air when school was out.

Jonathan Green (01:45:15.042)
Wow.

Terry Winnick (01:45:21.998)
So we had, you know, six, seven months. Maybe if you count the concept period, maybe you had nine months in which to conceptualize something and build it.

Jonathan Green (01:45:22.454)
Ha.

Jonathan Green (01:45:35.266)
Wow.

Terry Winnick (01:45:36.894)
in you know, the days of you know, Florida where, you know, you had two years or three years or or Harry Potter like they do now, where you have two or three years to design and build an attract. That didn't exist in those days. No luxury like that. Whatever you built you had you know, you started on if you were lucky you started in Jan on January the first and it wasn't raining. And you finished it by June the fifteenth. And I literally lived in a

in a motor home on on you know the on the site of on the site of Battlestar Galactica or Jaws or or the special effects stage or or Castle Dracula or the Land of a Thousand Faces makeup show, I was li I never went home.

Jonathan Green (01:46:27.394)
Wow.

Terry Winnick (01:46:29.364)
you know, from from January to June I lived in a trailer on the site. We worked twenty four hours a day, seven days a week.

Jonathan Green (01:46:37.934)
Wow, that is that's a that's amazing to me.

Terry Winnick (01:46:42.57)
I get it it it was a killer. That's why my hair's gray.

Jonathan Green (01:46:46.327)
Ha ha.

Terry Winnick (01:46:48.31)
Or white. Your dad's still got some his hair isn't totally white yet. My hair is totally white.

Jonathan Green (01:46:56.718)
That's wow, and and the so battle obviously Battlestar Galactica was was the attraction not only for the power.

Terry Winnick (01:47:07.566)
Well I mean there was a y you know, there was in seventy two there was the rock slide.

Jonathan Green (01:47:13.122)
Mm-hmm.

Terry Winnick (01:47:14.895)
And seventy two and seventy three was the reply in the doomed glacier.

And then there was the special eff the the first permanent special effects stage, which was stage thirty two and thirty. There were duplicate stages. Duplicates, thirty and thirty two.

Then there was

Then there was the the collapsing bridge, then the Doom Glacier, then Jaws.

Jonathan Green (01:47:48.438)
Mm-hmm.

Terry Winnick (01:47:53.088)
And then after Jaws was Battlestar Galactica.

Terry Winnick (01:48:00.434)
And

Terry Winnick (01:48:05.484)
Then it was

Terry Winnick (01:48:11.468)
King Kong.

Terry Winnick (01:48:16.447)
And the first King Kong, you know, the one that burned down. Yeah. And then

Then I was gone. I left the studio at the end of eighty one.

Jonathan Green (01:48:31.502)
Terry Winnick (01:48:32.27)
And then they built King Kong right after that. So that was eighty eighty two, I guess, eighty one, eighty two, eighty two, King Kong. And then they pretty much left and then while that was going on we we did Castle Dracula. Well, we did the Land of a Thousand Faces makeup show. Then then we did Castle Dracula. We did Adam Twelve.

Jonathan Green (01:48:40.536)
Hmm.

Terry Winnick (01:48:57.598)
in the old stunt show. Then we moved the stunt show to the amphitheater in seventy one.

And and we moved it to the s and then we took the stunt show area and that became the land of a thousand faces. We redid the makeup show.

Terry Winnick (01:49:17.002)
And then in seventy five we moved the stun show from the amphitheater to

Jonathan Green (01:49:28.142)
Seven years.

Terry Winnick (01:49:28.638)
Five or eighty five.

Terry Winnick (01:49:35.628)
No, let's see. I'm getting mixed up. So seventy seventy four was the bridge and also seventy five I guess was Doom Glacier. Seventy six was Jaws.

Terry Winnick (01:49:51.906)
We did we did Emergency was the first stage seventy screen test show in the new facility. Your dad was on that show with Don and Martin and from

Jonathan Green (01:50:08.796)
yeah. Okay.

Terry Winnick (01:50:11.51)
That was the first one, it was emergency. Then after emergency was airport seventy seven.

And then we did this Wild West thing. I don't remember what the fuck we called that.

Jonathan Green (01:50:23.192)
Ha ha.

Terry Winnick (01:50:26.328)
And then I think it became Star Trek.

Jonathan Green (01:50:29.059)
Wow.

Wow, that's that's crazy.

Terry Winnick (01:50:33.216)
And then we moved the stunt show out of the amphitheater in that had to be eighty four.

Because that's when we built the the roof on the amphitheater.

I think eighty four was Jesus Christ superstar, wasn't it? Eighty

Jonathan Green (01:50:52.238)
That sounds right.

Terry Winnick (01:50:55.212)
Yeah, I think that and then we moved then we built the new stunt show arena which they finally closed down and they don't have a stunt show anymore, but up there in the parking lot next to the animal show.

Jonathan Green (01:51:05.452)
Yes.

Terry Winnick (01:51:09.91)
Yeah, I worked on all of that. I was in charge of all of that. So I was building all that shit at the same time.

Jonathan Green (01:51:15.086)
When obviously with

Terry Winnick (01:51:19.49)
Build Miami bikes up there too, you know.

Jonathan Green (01:51:22.444)
That's right. With with the Battlestar Galactica, because as you were saying, that was kind of that was a first on many levels for any theme park whatsoever. I w was it well received with the with the crowds and all that? I mean was it they loved it. Yeah, that's I I I vaguely I remember it as as a kid going in there.

Terry Winnick (01:51:46.43)
Yeah, it it had animation, it had the lasers, it had smoke, it had it had the live tour guide in the middle of it, and the you know, it had the imperious leader up there saying, you know, silence, foolish mortals, your fate is sealed

Jonathan Green (01:52:00.576)
Yeah.

Terry Winnick (01:52:07.04)
That was the first because that was that was the first attraction that we built with a computer.

Terry Winnick (01:52:15.148)
That's that was the first attraction that we ever had a computer to d to operate it.

Jonathan Green (01:52:22.274)
That's that's absolutely incredible. Wow. Yeah, yeah. I yeah, I'm I'm blown away by that.

Terry Winnick (01:52:32.844)
Well, I remember when I went to we were you know, I told you about Smith and Williams as the architects of the tour. Yes. And remember the special effects department up until seventy two had built they built the flash flood, they built the the runaway train, they built the the parting of the Red Sea.

And they built the original they built the first they they built the first Jaws attraction. The original. It's the same attraction that's there now, but the studio built it first and then we rebuilt it in seventy eight. it didn't work. It wasn't reliable. The problem was that the special effects department and the mill, the construction department of the studio and the studio art department were used to building stuff for the movies.

And so whatever they built was built for a shot. It wasn't built to last two hundred and twenty five times a day, seven days a week, twelve months a year for the rest of your life. And if it didn't work for the movie scene, shot for the shot the director would call cut and they'd fix it and then they'd try it again. Well when you got these trends going by every three minutes, you you can't

Jonathan Green (01:53:33.069)
Hmm.

Jonathan Green (01:53:39.988)
Sure.

Terry Winnick (01:53:58.648)
yell cut, stop and fix it and you know, you they had to work every time. And so the more sophisticated we became, the more we needed to have professional engineers and architects and designers and contractors who were used to building this kind of stuff. And we've s we slowly weaned it away from the special effects department on the lot and used professionals and that's when I really started getting involved.

Jonathan Green (01:54:17.336)
Yeah.

Terry Winnick (01:54:28.622)
seventy two when I came back from Washington D C because I was an architect and I was used to doing stuff in a more permanent fashion than the special effects department was used to doing it for the

Jonathan Green (01:54:42.258)
Sure. out of curiosity. yes. out of curiosity with the Jaws attraction. I've always been curious w w what was the reasoning for the carrot teeth? For what? For the Jaws' mouth, he when he had the carrot tooth. Carrot tooth. He his his mouth used to be his teeth used to be greatly exaggerated. And there are these large

Terry Winnick (01:54:54.69)
First.

Terry Winnick (01:55:06.798)
That's because Jay Stein wanted to scare the shit out of people.

And so the normal size tooth wasn't big enough, you know. That was Yeah, we can talk about that. I'd like to stop now. And we can continue this whenever you want on another day.

Jonathan Green (01:55:15.306)
Okay. Fair enough.

Jonathan Green (01:55:21.473)
Absolutely.

Jonathan Green (01:55:28.978)
That sounds great. I know. Seriously, I I can honestly say this. This has been the most enjoyable two hours I have spent in a long time.

Terry Winnick (01:55:38.39)
Well, I'm happy to talk some more if you wanna I

Jonathan Green (01:55:42.816)
I would greatly appreciate it. Absolutely. And

Terry Winnick (01:55:45.366)
Why don't we w today's Monday. Why don't we do it again, what do I have? Next Monday I have to go to the doctor. Does this help you with your article?

Jonathan Green (01:56:00.174)
This is incredible, incredible stuff. absolutely. This is yeah, this is amazing.

Terry Winnick (01:56:09.29)
Let's

Terry Winnick (01:56:18.518)
How about tentatively next?

Jonathan Green (01:56:20.878)
Tuesday.

Terry Winnick (01:56:23.426)
About the same time, four thirty.

Jonathan Green (01:56:25.378)
That sounds fantastic.

Jonathan Green (01:56:32.046)
Perfect.

Terry Winnick (01:56:34.67)
Okay, hold on a second. I'm putting it in my

Terry Winnick (01:56:41.44)
I'll you know if something changes, but let's say next Tuesday, August the twelfth at four thirty.

Jonathan Green (01:56:47.139)
That sounds great. I I really appreciate this.

Terry Winnick (01:56:51.134)
No problem. I'm I'm happy to tell the story. It's really stretching my I you know, I when I start talking then I remember stuff. If if I was gonna think about what I'm saying, I couldn't have I couldn't remember this stuff unless you know if if I tried. But once I start talking then I can remember all this stuff.

Jonathan Green (01:56:53.762)
Thank you so much. And and my

Jonathan Green (01:57:14.05)
Well, this is this is fantastic and and my dad wants me to tell you hello and he hopes that Hello back. And he hopes you're doing well with with your legs.

Terry Winnick (01:57:23.534)
My leg is getting better. I can act I'm actually sitting in a in a normal chair with my feet flat on the ground this week, which is the first time in four months I've been able to bend my leg far enough. Wow. To to sit in a normal chair. Normally I would be laying on the couch with my leg up. So I'm getting better. Tom I'm getting better and soon we'll have dinner in LA when I get a chance to get over there.

Jonathan Green (01:57:28.546)
Good.

Jonathan Green (01:57:49.016)
Great. Well he he he he would look forward to that very much.

Terry Winnick (01:57:52.994)
Yeah, well I'd like to see your mom too, so just say hi for me and we'll continue next week.

Jonathan Green (01:57:58.187)
I appreciate it. Y take care.

Terry Winnick (01:58:00.608)
Okay, Jonathan. Thank you. Take care too. I'm glad to talk to you. Thanks. Bye.

Jonathan Green (01:58:03.534)
Bye bye.