Sean Tibor: Hello, and welcome to teaching Python. This is episode 133, and this is not the rust teaching session at pycon, us 2024. My name's Sean Tiber. I'm a coder who teaches. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: And my name's Kelly Shuster Peredas, and I'm a teacher who codes. Sean Tibor: And this week, we are at Pycon us, and we're in a room with people as part of the conversation. So, thank you all for joining us. This is a great opportunity to get the community together and talk about topics that are interesting to us. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: And it's really weird because I'm used to looking at my screen looking at you, so I'm looking at you through my screen, and then you're looking at me, and it's just too confusing out there. We haven't been together in the same room before. Sean Tibor: You need, like. Or something eliminated. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Look at me. Sean Tibor: Well, this week, what we wanted to talk about was Pycon and the education role at Pycon. There's a lot of educators who are here, and the big question on our mind is, do we have enough educators at Pycon? Do we need more? How could we get them here 100%? Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Especially after the education summit? I'm not sure if any of you went to the education summit. No, no, no. Sean Tibor: Okay. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Okay. So there we go. Sean Tibor: Opportunity for next year. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Great opportunity for next year. Sean Tibor: If you haven't been to Pycon before, you don't know what it is. Pycon us is the US Python conference, and it happens every year. This year it's in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. There are many pycons around the world, actually, and around the country. So there's PI Texas, PI Ohio. There's just an explosion. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: PI Berlin. Berlin. Sean Tibor: There's a new explosion of pycons in Africa. It's a really exciting time to get together as a community and talk about the things that are important to us. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: 100%. And as an educator who is not really in the computer science kind of field, this has been probably my biggest personal learning network of coming here. Yesterday, I learned what rust was. I knew what a lenter was. Now because I don't use linters, and Shawn told me. Cause it's built in. That's why you never have to install a linter. So these are all, like, learning opportunities, I think, as computer science teachers spend, especially the ones that are like me, having this community just allows you to grow more so than what you do every day. Sean Tibor: Yeah. And this is actually our 6th Pycon. We've been coming here since Cleveland. I think that was the first time we met Chris Williams and a bunch of other people, and it really has become now every time we come back, we have friends, we have people we know, and we can hang out with them, and it's been really fun. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Yeah. And, Chris, you actually said something to me last night. You said, wow. You know, when I first met you, you didn't really engage with the conversation. And then last night, you said what? Chris Williams: I said, that you were a lot more highly opinionated and that you stood your ground in not arguments, but, like, strong debates. You had a much more nuanced and, yeah, you didn't take a poop from anyone. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Poop. I mean, that was. I think I wasn't confident in 2019. I didn't know what. I didn't think I should be here. I didn't know what a loop was. I didn't know what conditionals were, and I was just dumbfounded by the intelligence that was surrounding. Sean Tibor: I think that's one of the things that is unique about Pycon. And we'll get into this a little bit later about some of the perceived barriers to coming to a technology summit, especially when you're an educator python and the Python community, and Pycon itself is pretty good about welcoming people of all skill levels. If you just started writing Python a week ago or even at the conference, there are other people like you that can help you out and people who are welcoming and engaging with you. It's one of the things that makes it really unique and special. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: 100%. So benefits guides that. Sean Tibor: I mean, for me, it's a place to get inspired. Right? It's a place to learn new things. It's a place to connect with people, create the time and space to think about what we're teaching or what we're learning or what we're doing in a way that is really difficult to do in your day to day life. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: 100%. So I was thinking about the story that happened at the education summit. A teacher came up to me, and we were discussing curriculum, and he was quite upset that his curriculum had to be cut. He didn't have. He had too much, too many topics on the curriculum. And I said, what is one of your favorite topics in the curriculum? And he told me, requests, but unfortunately, I have to cut that because it doesn't fit into my curriculum, because it's not written in there. And we started talking about how requests in JSON kind of look like a dictionary, so they have to use that looping through the JSON and everything, and that why don't you just piggyback it up against your dictionaries and pretend that you're enhancing the dictionary unit and do requests because you can't have kids leaving a college course without knowing what an API is. That's in my opinion, because that's huge. And just that small little conversation he's. I'm going back to the curriculum board. We're putting requests back into the curriculum, and it's a good thing because we get to share that knowledge and. And build better curriculum for our students. Sean Tibor: Exactly. I think the other thing that's really good is that it's about those connections, and a lot of those connections last and persist well after Pycon's over. We're constantly chatting with people, text messages. I think we've had a four year long WhatsApp group chat going with Bob and Julian from pibytes, where it might go months, where it's quiet, and then we send a bunch of pictures back and forth and just say, how are you doing? And that was a relationship that started at Pycon. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Yeah. I constantly will hit Julian up with a question, asking him little tidbits of how he uses AI and what's his thoughts on kids, because he also has children, so they're trying to get their children involved in coding. So we'll constantly share those conversations, which are nice. Sean Tibor: So, from a problem statement, the thing that you and I were talking about the other night was, this has been a wonderful experience for us. I mean, we don't want to assume that it's a wonderful experience for everyone because everyone's experience is different. But I guess the problem statement is, do we have enough educators at Pycon? Is this a place where we should be bringing more people in and trying to share that experience with other people? What does that look like? The other thing that came up at the education summit was, what is the definition of an educator? Is it a classroom teacher? Is it someone who's an author, who writes books, who writes content? Is it the developer who's mentoring another developer and teaching them about software development processes, who's considered an educator in the space? Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Yeah, I always say we're all teachers and we're all learners. And if you are not in a classroom teaching, you're still teaching someone, whether it be a friend or your children. And everyone has a role in that learner teacher movement. Sean Tibor: Yeah. So I think one assumption, or our hypothesis going into this is that almost every single kind of educator would benefit from coming to Pycon, no matter how we define it. There's a huge benefit to coming to Pycon because this is such a place for learning. It's an incubator for learning new things and growing yourself and developing new ideas. And you know, our philosophy has always been that as an educator, you should be trying to learn everything you can, right? Like you should be learning all the time, constantly trying to stay one step ahead of your students, to be able to teach them the new things and teach them the latest stuff. Rust Visitor: Talking about rust? Kelly Schuster-Paredes: We are not talking about rust. Sean Tibor: We're talking about learning and education at Pycon. Would you like to join? Attendee: I'm a teacher, so it's nice. Chris Williams: Perfect. Sean Tibor: Hop in. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Excellent. We're on a live stream recording and our podcast. Yep. So come on in. Our topic is we are talking about bringing in more educators and having a space for them and whether it is a problem or not a problem, that there are not a lot of educators. And so we're exploring maybe the opportunities of how do we get more educators in here if we need to? Because I'm on that side where I really believe that educators need to be here. Definitely even k twelve today, listening to Simon talk about LLMs. We have so many people out there in the educational world listening to AI consultants that don't even know code, don't even understand what an LLMR is, and then they're telling teachers how to use it and we're blindly taking it. And me, I know what an LLM is, but I was watching Simon taking pictures every 5 seconds. This is another great quote. This is another great quote. That's a huge benefit that as an educator we can take back to our school and share it with people that may not be teaching computer science but still need to have those lessons. Sean Tibor: Yeah, I agree. I'm not going to take a con position against more educators at Pycon. I fully believe that as well. This is the part that's challenging. There are a lot of barriers to getting educators to Pycon. First of all, we have just the cost and geography barrier. If Pycon is not reasonable for you to get to, it can be thousands of dollars and days of travel to get here. And this is the biggest one where we probably have the best presence for educators, where there's several thousand people here. But if you look in other countries or other parts of the US, even pycons that are easy to get to might only have one or two other teachers there. So finding that community that you can talk with and have that common language and discuss common challenges is difficult to get there so definitely that barrier of travel and time and budget is a big one. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: There's a hidden underlying kind of guilt from educators. I've only missed two days of school, but at the same time I have emails coming in from a couple of my students saying, I have this issue on a newbie bite. Your brain's trying to mush. Just kidding. I joked. She sending me a a copy and paste into an email. I think I have an indentation error. I'm like, all I see is indentation errors. I don't know how to help you just put it on hold. But that if they don't have that instantaneous kind of fix feeling like they feel they're frozen. Right. And they can't continue to code. And so we've now lost, I won't see there again until Monday or Tuesday, and she's lost four or five days when she was just really trying to get through some code and finish something. So I feel a guilt coming on that I've missed two days of school. And I think that's hard for some educators to say, okay, I'm leaving Wednesday night. Even I came in at 330 in the morning. I'm leaving Wednesday. I'm going to miss Thursday, I'm going to miss Friday. I'm also going to miss Saturday and Sunday from my family and then go to work on Monday, totally exhausted and still not be giving them the 100%. So it's a hard line for an educator to do to go to a conference. Sean Tibor: That is true whether you're a classroom educator or, or an online educator or an author or something like that. It is a step away from what your responsibilities are. And there's a certain amount of, is it worth it? Balancing that? And again, that's the cost, the time, the stepping away. Am I going to get more out of going to the conference than I'm taking away? The other one is probably more subtle. And a lot of it's the call it the imposter syndrome or other mental and emotional barriers to coming to a conference, especially as an educator. And I think this is similar for people who are new to coding as well. It's, oh, I don't belong there. That's for developers. That's for people who are real python coders. What I've seen being here is, that's not true, but it's definitely true in people's heads. They also come up with excuses that justify that because they don't, maybe don't want to admit that they're just afraid of going right. So they'll say things like, I really don't like the health and masking policy this year. I don't want to go because it'll be too much of a hassle. They may, that may be partially what they feel, but it might also be masking some vulnerability or insecurity about coming here. There's definitely some solutions to that. In that case, it's come with friends, come with people who can make it a safe place for you or way to have compatriots that are with you for it, that can go to the talks with you, that can attend the education summit with you. I think that really helps to make it okay. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: I just thought of this, though, also the fact that sometimes you have to write proposals for your boss in order to go to a conference. When a boss opens up Pycon and sees its developers and things like that, and it's your first time, you don't know how to convince them that I need to be at Pycon. That can be a difficult challenge, too. So you normally send people to Ed tech conferences. If they're in ed tech, they don't send them to an actual coding conference because they assume that the Ed tech is going to allow them to get, like a more general and broad conference experience, which is true. But sometimes we're broad. We're still broad here in Pycon, there's so many topics, so trying to find the way to write the proposal for the teachers can be difficult. Maybe we can help with that. That would be a good one. Sean Tibor: Why don't we take a pause here, because I think this is a great place to ask, what kind of challenges did each of you have to come here? Whether it was the time away or the financial challenges, convincing other people, maybe just let's go around, introduce each other, and talk about, was there anything that was hard about getting to Pycon this year or something you had to overcome to be here? Matt, can we start with you? Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Do you want to? Sean Tibor: Yeah. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: It's not rust. Attendee: Sure. What's difficult? I mean, time distanced. Time out of the classroom is always tricky. And the initial hurdle of not just imposter syndrome, but just being a new. Being a new place. And if you're traveling alone, it's tricky to step into a new space. It's good to do. But the other thing is being here. This is my first iPhone. I was supposed to present the education summer in 2020, which didn't happen, and then it just fell away and had a colleague that we were. So having a colleague would have been great. To, but it's twice as expensive and twice as much time out of the classroom. But one thing that it dispelled for me as being here is that my students could all be here. They would get a ton out of this. After a year or two years of courses in my classes, they could get a ton of this and could do a lightning talk, some of them, or even a tutorial, which is empowering to see that and also to see all the different communities that are here within Python, that would be really empowering for. Chris Williams: Them as well, too. Attendee: So it's nice to see that. So I don't know if there are student grants to get students here, but I know we'll try for. I'll get them to pie cascades. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Cool. Sean Tibor: Nice. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: And you don't have to speak if you don't want. Attendee: You can pass. So I help Python. I come out of English, and so I just learned Python because I was doing, sorry, I was doing an iT job with the university I was working at, or as a grad student at. And so for the first seven or eight years that I was doing Python, I felt like, you know, I'm not really a python developer. It's just something I do. I'm mostly a composition guy. Then a handful of years, I was too busy to get out here. It's hard to make the time away from the teaching. So I guess this year I thought, well, I need to get out to Python Python eventually. It's something I would really like to bring my technical writing students too. I really. I'm excited about the idea of merging humanities sorts of teaching and stem or software engineering sorts of teaching. I think there's a lot of potential, particularly at Python or with Python. So bringing tech writing students to Python would be amazing. So, yeah, Cascades, I'm over in Seattle area, so maybe I'll try and do. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: That next year, pairing. You got your partner in education. Rust Visitor: I'm actually an avid fan of your podcast. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Oh, thank you. Rust Visitor: I met Sean last year in Salt Lake, and then. Yeah, for myself, actually. I did get a travel grant, so there are grants available for me to live. So you really do need to come. It is a process. You do have to put in an application. Why you need to come? For myself, I'm just still learning Python, and I got into data during the pandemic, and I stay at home and take care of my kids. But it really helped being able to get the grant, just afford the registration and come in and be able to still keep learning. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Where can they get the application? Rust Visitor: Do you know, it's actually on the Pycon website. So if you go into the pycon, when you list to attend or come in for attending, you'll have the listing for like, registration, frequently asked questions, but it will say, I think, travel grammar. And then, yeah, you just follow the links through. It tells you what to do. And hopefully you're one of the lucky people that could get awarded a grant. Attendee: So let's see. I work in higher education, academic technology, and definitely one of the barriers for coming in to Pycon, mostly just not knowing about it. I'm kind of new to the education space in general and conferences. I went to the online learning consortium conference the past two years. It's my kind of like yearly professional development, some of the imposter syndrome for sure, of not knowing, like, what I would get out of it. If there would be something there for me. I would say my use of it, of python in general, is more as a hobbyist than anything else. The only reason I kind of became more aware of it is that canvas, the learning management system, there is a python wrapper that someone, a school from a school in Florida actually wrote. And I had a colleague who was willing to show me how to use the wrapper and I was like, oh, it's not as hard as I thought it was, but it's nowhere in my job description. It's nowhere in what I'm required to do. And so I was trying to figure out, what is this to me? Is this something for me as like, out of work identity? Is it part of like, education? Is it part of future learning, whatever that might be, but really glad I came. And I actually think getting the word out about the open spaces, I had no idea. I saw them all on the board and I had no idea what they were until midday yesterday was just like, oh, they're almost like lightning talks in that way. There's a lot of, like, I don't know how to put it. Just like, if you want to talk about something, chances are there are other people here who want to talk with you about it as well. And that's pretty unique, I think, for conferences like this. So getting the word out about that. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: As well, we just got a calm read that because you have open. Sean Tibor: Oh, yeah, we just got a comment that says open spaces are a really cool idea. Attendee: Right. Sean Tibor: It really does give that energy for something new. So I completely agree. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: That's Doctor Chuck. Sean Tibor: Oh, nice. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Doctor Chuck's here, by the way, if you spot, everyone's saying, hi, Doctor Chuck. There we go a lot of learners for you, Doctor Chuck. He says hi. Attendee: So I'm actually full time developer, but I teach, help teach programs. I volunteer for an organization called black digital processing associate and they have programs for students that help them learn application development, web development. Things are weekend programs as far as barriers for me to come here. You know, obviously I'm in a different situation, but there's always going to be some kind of barrier because I work in Python, I work in SQL, I work in tableau, I work in power Bi, I can't go to all the conferences. So I have to really pick and choose what's most important to me, what's going to help me with the career as far as the students are concerned. Our programs run on Saturday, so I was very lucky this time around that you have other people that can fill in and help out. But it's kind of a hard, our programs only run through the school year and we're coming to the end and so it's a hard choice to make. Should I come here or should I be volunteering and helping them wrap up. Attendee: Their program for the year? Kelly Schuster-Paredes: So I have to say something real quick. You started off with not a teacher, but as soon as you said students, your eyes lit up and glowed. So I don't know if you noticed that everyone's a teacher. And that glow back there, I don't know if you noticed you did that. That was beautiful. You saw it, everyone saw it. Sean Tibor: Then definitely a teacher. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Welcome. You're definitely a teacher. Not full time, but still an educator. Thank you. Chris Williams: So I'm a very, very non traditional educator. I'm a developer advocate for Hashicorp, but that in itself is an educational role. I go out and teach people about all the things, terraform and whatnot. The way that we met was because I was the evening podcast. We brought them back. We bring on people to teach how to do the things and how so. Sean Tibor: That we can all learn together and. Chris Williams: Everything from a do we need more educators at Pycon perspective, I don't think anybody's going to argue and say, no, we absolutely do not need gatekeeping. So yeah, it's definitely something that when I first came and met both of you, I was like, oh, I do not belong here. And then now a couple of years later, you're having arguments about APIs with a guy with requests saying, no, you must have it. So yeah, it's definitely a great place for all of us to vibe together and learn the next new thing to pick up. Sean Tibor: Like rough, rough. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: That's rough. Sean Tibor: So thanks, everyone, for sharing, because I think it really just illustrates, like, we all have things that we have to overcome to be here. And because we're in the room together, you all overcame it for each one of us. There's probably ten people sitting at home that could be here, and we get a lot out of it. And so the question in my mind is, okay, so now what do we do? What can we do to help with this? Travel grants is a great one because that removes a barrier for people. I also think the awareness, like that you mentioned, Tristan, that's a great point. Also, how do you even know that this conference is out, out there for you and that it has a strong education community that's emerging from it? Right? So definitely there's an awareness problem. How do we get that better? Kelly Schuster-Paredes: That's an easy, I think an easy problem maybe to fix. There are plns, Matt might go home, you've made a connection. So now we're going to go maybe to a pie cascades and we'll bring that up. I think if everyone just told one person and then that person told somebody else, it's an easy communication fix. It's just that we don't often think about it, but any way that we can grow and definitely get more educators coming into computer science is a win for us. Sometimes we lose our educators to the dark side and they, here comes Al, the biggest educator out there. But sometimes we lose educators to the developer side. And as developers, it's really our role to help support new teachers that come in from an english side and learn Python for the first time. Just spread the word. You can code, you can do it, you can come to Pycon and you can code in Python. Sean Tibor: It's also important that everyone tells their story. Tell that story to other people. Yeah, I wasn't sure about going to Pycon. Was it going to be for me? But I got there and I met these people and I went to this thing and it was amazing. Tell that story right? Like, when you make those connections, you have those moments. Tell other people about it. Make it your personal story about why Pycon was great for you. The other thing I wanted to bring up also is, I think for the education summit this year, one of the things that was different was that in years past, we've tried really hard to create something that was like this education tower within Python, that the PSF would have this education effort and initiative, and we'd be organized and well run. And we never got to that point. There was the best of intentions, but not the best of execution. What I've seen happen over the last few years is we've gone more point to point. It's not like this organized monolith that we need to create. It's more like, how can I help you do what you're trying to do in your classroom? Or, how can I help you do what you're trying to do with your students? Or can I support your program for weekend education? What can I do to help each other? That kind of like democratization or the leveling of the playing field to make it more person to person, educator to educator and sharing ideas across different approaches seems to be really working. And I'm seeing a lot of people getting excited and invigorated by it, because there's that joy in helping others. Right. That so many teachers have, and also the ability to enhance what you're doing and make it a little bit easier because someone's giving you a little bit of energy that can really help. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: I just thought of something while you're talking, which, it's not abnormal sometimes, but at the education summit, we had two lawyers come in. They're professors of law. And the one thing about another reason why it's so important to have the educators here as they're talking and they're lawyers, why would lawyers want python in their course? They were talking about the needs of being able to sift through tons and tons of information and tons of files, the understanding of a technical side that they might need in a future case. So finding as they were talking about and how they were teaching these people who were probably afraid of math, afraid of science, afraid of computer science, teaching them, Python was quite powerful. And as they're talking, I'm learning, and I'm thinking new things about what I can do in my curriculum, making those connections. So, another reason why we need other educators, not just Python, maybe. Yeah. Sean Tibor: Yeah. The whole idea of cross curriculum and cross disciplinary education is really great. That's an area where I think we have a big opportunity, because Python, to me, has, since I first started learning it, and to this day, still feels like the language that is the best for that sort of cross disciplinary work, because I don't have to teach people about pointers and references and things like that. Some people can be immediately effective with a very small amount of knowledge in a discipline that's not computer science. That's another barrier, too. I'm an english teacher. Why would I go to a developer conference? Because there's other english teachers here, and they can share ideas with you. That's probably one of the best arguments for Pycon, is that it is one of the most diverse conferences that I've seen and that it's not all developers, it's not all people who are writing software for the sake of software solving software oriented problems. It's people solving a huge domain of problems, but they just happen to use Python to do it. So just to summarize, what we've been discussing here is there are a lot of barriers. Some of them are real, some of them are perceived, some of them are just real because they are perceived. We have people in the room here that could talk to you about that and talk about the barriers that they've overcome to be here. So if you're sitting at home listening to this and you're thinking, maybe I could go to Pycon and maybe that would be something I'd be interested in. Connect with us. We can get you connected with other educators that have been here and found value in it and talk about it. There are resources available, travel grants. Maybe we need to come up with, hey, if you are finding it difficult to write a proposal for Pycon, here's a surge. Yeah, we'll generate something, we'll put something together. Maybe that's something Dylan's technical writing people could come up with. Could be fun, right? So there are things that we can do. The education summit acts as a nice focal point. It's not the only thing happening at Pycon, which is great, but it's a way to say, I want to go because I want to attend the education summit. And that's dedicated for educators, whether you're a classroom teacher or a content creator, or you're an author of books or you have an intern, that could be a great way to bring everyone in, bring them together and create this common thread throughout the conference. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: That's a really good entrance. If you can only get for. Maybe there's something I keep asking, maybe there's something we can do where if at least get them into the education summit just for that one day, that's a whole nother. Maybe talk to the PSF. But the education summit is such a. Even not that Pycon is not friendly because it's. How can you get friendlier in Pycon but in the education summit? Because it's small. It's tiny in your room and you're in that room all day. You have the opportunity to just speak to somebody because you're sitting next to them or you've seen them do a quick little lightning talk, or you have the birds of the feather. So it's a really nice, comfortable way. That's how we started, that's how we met. I think a lot of people, and Nick Tolar, ve from anaconda, Eric Mathis. We met all these educators at the ED summit. Sean Tibor: So I want to just take a minute and see if anybody had any questions or any additional final thoughts they wanted to share from the room. Attendee: I'm just going to follow up on your point about learning. Learning code or learning for the first time. They look around, they go, what sort of problem can I solve? How can I automate something and make my life easier? And I've heard that several times in different talks, but in different talks, people talk about, I just learned automated, what can I do? And so this is one of the, I think, downsides of a narrow group of people that learn to code, and the downsides are the criticisms. And so the commonality is, it's just, it's a bunch of people, 20 to 30 year old men have for the most part. And so that's the biggest argument for me, for just broadening it to get as many people here with all sorts of different issues or things that are not in technology necessarily as their day job, so they start solving their problems, in solving problems that do good things for wide variety of people. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Made me think of Doctor Becky. Yep, Doctor Becky. If you haven't followed her, she's an astrophysicist. Sean Tibor: Yep. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Correct. And she uses python on the side to find galaxies far, far away. So, like, wow. You know, as a science student. Wow, that's crazy. Sean Tibor: And one of the other great endorsements for Pycon is the ability to connect with other people and people that maybe you wouldn't get the chance to encounter. I was gonna make an announcement for Doctor Chuck. He's got an open space coming up this afternoon, room 315. At 04:00 you can go hang out with Doctor Chuck and ask him questions about his course and learn things from him. And, like, when else do you really get that opportunity? Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Yes, Doctor Chuck's here. And I had a great conversation with him and it made me giggle. And I was telling Sean about this last night. He says he's the kindergarten teacher for Python. And I was like, no, you're not. But, oh, he's like, I am your doctor, Chug. So, anyways, that was cute. But, yeah, we said 30 minutes. We always talk too much. Sean Tibor: Yep. Well, we can wrap it up here. I think this has been really just lovely to have all of you here in the room with us. It's a nice thing to be able to record, get your thoughts, your perspectives as well. I was making the comment the other day that it's always one of the things that I love about Pycon, but it's also very surprising is that for Kelly and I, the experiences we have basically a Zoom meeting once a week that's recorded, and at the end of it, I do some work to transcribe it and clean it up, and I press a button and it changes from red to green and then we walk away. But Pycon is when people come up to us and say, hey, I listen to your podcast all the time, really. So to be here with you in the room, having the conversation, having you be part of the conversation is special and different and really enjoyable. And so thank you all for coming, and thank you all for everyone who's joined the live stream. It's really great that you're all here and it's a really special, unique moment for us. Thank you for that. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Thank you very much. It's weird having an audience, but it's kind of like we're teaching well. Sean Tibor: So if we're teaching Python. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: This is Sean and this is Kelly signing off. Yay.