John Nunemaker (00:00)
Hello, this is John. We were recording on a snowy Thursday in South Bend and Colorado. It's much snowier in Colorado, I'm sure. And today, well, I should probably say who we are. We are standing in the fire. Real talk for founders in the heat of SaaS growth. I kind of just jumped in because I'm looking out the window and it's snowing and it's beautiful. But today what we want to talk about is company knowledge. Where does it go? What tools are available? Which kind of

information should go in which tool and kind of all of that kind of stuff. So what kind of kicked this off, I think, and I will just go on a short rant for a second had two Rails apps. So two applications that were serving different parts of kind of fireside. So one was serving the RSS feeds for the podcast and the other one's kind of serving everything else. Then we wanted to merge it all into one. And so over the course of a while, you know, Garrett did a lot of the code.

I did a bunch of the infra structure stuff. And then in the last few days, we went through the final parts of getting this out in production and all of that. And after I did all that, I realized I have, you know, all this knowledge about how cloud flare, which is our CDN for caching all this stuff, you know, receives those requests and routes them to our servers. And it goes, you know, through all these little bits that I won't bore people with.

And I was like, I'm the only one that has that, but there's other people on our team. And so I've been reading all of us. think I've read it. I'm the farthest through it. But Dan Martell's book, what's it called? It's buy back your time. Yeah. So buy back your time. And he talked about like video recording in there and like creating, you know, documents and play, but yeah, playbooks and all that kind of stuff. And that got me thinking. So I right away, I got Garrett on a call. I didn't record it. I probably should have.

Kristopher (01:19)
I was like, possible.

Bye back your time.

Playbooks.

John Nunemaker (01:44)
and I like walked him through it. So at least one more person knows how this is happening and what I did and all that kind of stuff to reroute it. So that's kind of what kicked it off. we did almost like a full episode before we hit record and realized that was a good episode. We should like do it. So we're just going to repeat it back for you now. So, so yeah, so we have a couple of different options we can talk about. I think we're going to, as usual, maybe go to Kris first. have tools, where to store it, all kinds of stuff.

And maybe Kris, you could talk through some of the things that you had said before we hit record.

Kristopher (02:14)
Yeah.

Well, and I think maybe starting to clarify what the challenges is, you know, and there's a couple of different ones. One is, you know, I have a couple of a few different projects, new people coming on board and non-technical by, you know, by background. so, finding time to transition that knowledge so that they can take over more and more things.

And I think I found that to be challenging to find that time. And if I could have just, you know, what should I have done previously? How can I carve out that hour to make it most efficient so that when I spend a couple hours on a specific project, it's not doing the tasks that should be delegated. think then there's all, I'm going to kind of more problem, put the problems up first. Secondly, you know, we kind of chatted about if you have a company of let's say even five to eight people, like bigger, maybe like box out, you know, how do you share knowledge of like inner company things?

You know, some might be technical people, some may be customer success. So it's not all just in the code. So like, is there an intranet, you know, that should be built or do people look there? And then the third, think, challenge and issue is, so, and how do you store and share documents? you know, upfront, it's easy just to throw up a Word doc, you know, on your own computer, ship it in Dropbox, but then some files are better for collaboration and Google docs. And then, people complain about where do I find this thing? And so.

John Nunemaker (03:18)
you

Kristopher (03:31)
I don't know that those are some of the problems I was thrown out of how we do it. And the solutions I have may be different than the solutions you all use, from a technical standpoint, but yeah, having people on all the same page where John then let's just say I was a developer. You wouldn't then have to call me and have the same hour conversation with me that you had with Garrett to explain what was going on. so I guess like I'll tee that up to kind of ask.

what do you guys use or see to be most successful for sharing that knowledge or putting that together? Or from the book, what are things that we should maybe be doing that we're not doing?

John Nunemaker (04:08)
Yeah, Garrett, we would you go through what you did for fireside kind of like towards the end for like the technical stuff that I feel like that would be when when I say the end I mean the end of when you were consulting on it before you became an owner

Garrett Dimon (04:20)
Well, so a lot of it context wise, came from and I mean, obviously, you know, you've gone through this to john going through due diligence when selling a company. when I sold sifter, and you know, you're going, you're basically auditing yourself almost with a fine tooth comb. And it's like, well, this, that I should have done that a long time ago, I should have done that a long time ago, it would have helped me, it would have been easier to transition to the new owners. It just it would have been a unquestionably useful thing.

and I went through due diligence twice because we walked away the first time. So it's just double. And ever since then, has reinforced the value of doing this kind of stuff and documenting it. And so with fireside, even though it wasn't an owner is just helping and doing some, you know, work for Dan on the side. It got to the point as I started to understand the system better, that I was like, this all needs to be written down and like,

glued together in some way that people, somebody else can come along. And I mean, it never quite got finished, but it created an outline of these are the things we need to eventually document. And then as I touched those areas, I'd fill in the things. so that was just on a Wiki within, uh, for the GitHub repo. But since then having done more and more of that, what I've found is it's best to just keep a doc or docs folder in the repo.

And anything that's related to code that isn't like a specific method. like architectural stuff or things that really only a developer is going to need to know would stay in the repo and be committed with the equivalent code changes and be documented there like we're all familiar with the read me and the setup processes and every, know, almost everybody will do that.

Things like that, like these are the list of vendors we use for these, email, for log in, or whatever. And even just having a list of vendors so that if you need to rotate keys or whatever it is, you know everything you're dependent on. It's like this vendor we use for this. So if you've got an app that has one email provider for transactional email, one for marketing

John Nunemaker (06:01)
Yeah.

Garrett Dimon (06:19)
clearly written down this one's for this, this one's for this. If we change this one, here's the likely areas there'll be ripple effects and that kind of stuff. But then there's. Yeah.

John Nunemaker (06:28)
even things like DNS like like I was in

the DNS and there was a whole but there's there's keys for SendGrid postmark Mailjet like a million different email services and I'm like, I don't think we need all these still. But I don't know.

Kristopher (06:39)
hahahaha

Garrett Dimon (06:42)
That's been one of my favorite features of DnSimple is when you add a record now you can add a comment that describes what it is and what it's for and who added it and when and why and whether it needs to stick around permanently or rarely and so to me that's huge. DNS is one of those things that's a long thought like if you've got a team it quickly needs comments or those records get out.

John Nunemaker (06:50)
Mm-hmm.

Garrett Dimon (07:08)
But yeah, so then there's the other side of it, which is the non-technical side. And in this basically, to me, non-technical is anything that is going to outlast a code commit. So like if you are committing code and something changes and it would affect the content of that knowledge, then it needs to live in the repo because it's too tightly coupled. But for other things like how to send a newsletter or

you know, process for kind of making sure a blog post gets double checked by somebody else for typos thing. Those things ideally can live anywhere, but then you have one thing like whether it's notion or wherever, and that one place is the place that you always link to. And so you can go and create a video and put it on YouTube or put it on Vimeo or whatever it is. It doesn't matter. I mean, eventually you probably want to standardize, but

it's you know, there's a value in everybody be able to use their own tools that they're comfortable with. But then as long as it all is linked out from notion or wherever that one place is, then it's centralized for findability. Because, you know, if you record something and nobody watches it, did it actually get recorded? That kind of thing. So that's been

is put code stuff in a docs folder and then just otherwise let people use whatever tools they want and then have something centralized that can be the glue for all those other things. So like if somebody wants to put it in a Google Doc, fine, but just link to it and create an entry in Notion so that people can find it and that kind of thing. then

John Nunemaker (08:41)
Yeah, some central hub somewhere

like I wouldn't say we currently have a central. Do we have a central hub? I can't think of one. Yeah. Honestly, slack. But but slack's not a paid slack. So it only has 90 days. 30 days. Whatever. Yeah. So yeah, that's funny. So we don't have a hub, but we're also small teams, three people. And so it's a lot easier to know, you know, this is this is here. And who should I even ask about and stuff like that? But even in in box out where it's more people, you know, it's maybe 15.

Kristopher (08:51)
but only for 30 days.

John Nunemaker (09:08)
people that will possibly need certain information. it can be a lot harder to figure out. I do feel like you need to have something kind of central. We've tried really hard there to like centralize on, you know, the GitHub repo for like issues and for GitHub for projects and things like that, even if we don't necessarily like those tools the most just so that everything is kind of as close together as possible.

Kristopher (09:30)
even on that, think one of the challenges with, let's say that's basically that team gets bigger. So I've helped with a lot of the marketing stuff. You know, I have all that in my own Dropbox. You know, I know sometimes other team members need some of those designs to tweak them. I did it at my Dropbox because that's how I organize my own files and I back them up. But not then in the,

John Nunemaker (09:40)
Mmm.

Kristopher (09:52)
the teams folder to be able to access them or access the different variations of things, which is, you know, that whole organization. I don't know how you guys may be, may be better at it, but my folder structure, I, I, I start it and have good intentions. And then as we have, you know, version two, version three, version four, I don't know you ever see those memes that show up from like designers that like their Photoshop files and it's just like last version, final two, two, two, four, six or whatever.

John Nunemaker (10:07)
Hahaha.

Yeah.

Yeah, yep.

I've never done that. I don't know what you're talking about.

Kristopher (10:22)
Hahaha!

John Nunemaker (10:23)
that's a good point too, because you use Dropbox and you keep, you know, technically our files in there because it makes sense for you, but also we use Dropbox and we keep our files in there too. So probably we should have set up like a shared folder or something. But you know, I've read, it's funny because I even just there, I ran into stuff with like, I work with our bookkeeper a lot and she uses Google and in Google drive and stuff like that. So I remember like right from the beginning, she's like, you can email me stuff or you can put it in this Google drive folder. And I'm like,

Kristopher (10:28)
Correct.

Yeah.

John Nunemaker (10:50)
I don't use Google Drive. don't even know how to use Google Drive. I'm just going to email them, you know? This is too much work. So finally the other day I was like, okay, I got to figure this out. I go into, okay, I can literally build Google Drive from scratch. I can do that. I swear to you, I could not figure out how to upload a file to a shared drive. I eventually, thankfully AI exists. I didn't use Gemini. I'm just going to throw that out there, right? But I talked to Chad GPT and I was like, how do I upload a file

Kristopher (11:03)
Ha

John Nunemaker (11:18)
to Google Drive shared folder. And they were like, it's simple. You upload the file and then you move the file to that folder. And I was like, are you kidding me? So again, there's just, but like that probably feels very natural for our bookkeeper because she uses it all the time. She's used to it. again, like you, she keeps a folder for each client inside of there. There's like invoices, there's other things that other folders that you can put files in.

that makes sense. works in her workflow. That's what she uses. You know, for me, I'm a Dropbox kid. And so it's really difficult for me to go to. just want to have it on my machine, drop it in there. I don't want to think about uploading it, you know, sinking it, all that kind of stuff. Yeah. So I don't know that tools are definitely something that, everyone can choose different tools. And so then I think really the most important thing is just standardizing on one. However, you're going to do that and then making sure that you can, know,

share folders correctly and stuff. But I don't think any tool solves that problem real great. The actual sharing of individual folders, like most of them, like Dropbox is really good at like sharing the root level folder, but then everyone has access to all your contracts and all your taxes and like, that doesn't make sense. But if you do a shared folder, they have to like bookmark that somewhere and keep it so that they can get back to it. am Google Drive was not any better at that. So yeah, it's tricky on those kinds of things specifically.

Kristopher (12:19)
Yeah. Yep. Yep.

Hmm.

John Nunemaker (12:36)
So the other thing that I was really curious about, so you talked about like Word and then, you know, Google, Dropbox, notion. This, came up in one of the Slack rooms that, that I have is like, where do you put stuff? And I feel like there's a bunch of tools notions come up a lot. I've used notion in the past. Have either of you used notion or do you have any? Yeah. No thoughts or,

Garrett Dimon (12:58)
I'm I have learned to be relatively indifferent and more like whatever the team feels is best. Just learn it like there's things like Rome or obsidian And so like obsidian is nice for more technical people because it's more pure markdown, and like customizable and all that kind of stuff. and like, can easily, you know, publish it, but then you can do that on notion to me notions, the broadest.

in terms of people being able to hop in, understand it, use it, make the most of it. Obviously plenty of people won't like it,

Kristopher (13:28)
I think that, and Garrett, I don't know what your experience has been like. think there's sometimes a hard part. So in a previous project, a couple of years ago, there was a team that was putting everything in Notion and some people used it, some people didn't. so then it, like the questions might still get asked that are in Slack or in a message that like is actually already in the thing. And so it's like, how do you create the culture as well? Like that, Hey, we're going to keep this area updated.

John Nunemaker (13:48)
Yeah.

Mm.

Kristopher (13:56)
So check there first before making it someone else's job to answer that question for you. It'd also be interesting then, does Notion have anything where you can ask it a question and then it finds the answer in the document?

John Nunemaker (14:07)
That's a good question too. Yeah. Like do they scan documents, index them, and then make those searchable as well? Cause I would love that for video. I feel like for video, would be really nice if you, if you started to do a little bit, your video is not scannable and it's not searchable, but if you extract the text, you know, from it, transcribe it, et cetera, then you can get that stuff. And I feel like that would be really nice to have a place where you could just upload a video. You don't have to title it. You don't have to put tags in it. You don't have to think about public, private, all that.

Kristopher (14:12)
Yeah.

John Nunemaker (14:32)
It's just like, if you're at the company, you can access it and you can search, you know, the contents that are inside of it. I feel like that would be really nice. I don't know anyone that does that. Actually, while you were talking, I started thinking about, you know, one of the first companies I worked at. No, yes. I just, I was thinking about swag. One of us is actually wearing our swag. Yeah. I was thinking about, the first company I worked at was like this RV company and we were, we, you know, they had an intranet and it was like your homepage.

Kristopher (14:44)
Swag? No, I'm just kidding. Throwback to what is that episode two?

John Nunemaker (14:56)
like for your computer automatically. And I was like, maybe we just need to like change everybody's homepage and have like weather widgets again and have, you know, like key documents and all this kind of stuff. And then every, every person in the company just has that. And so they cannot not find it, you know, some kind of start page. It's like, look, we highly recommend you make your bookmark this, or you can find a job somewhere else. No.

Kristopher (14:58)
Mmm.

Garrett Dimon (15:19)
will.

challenge is like, it's, it's different for everybody, right? So unless you, just writing in general, right, like a lot of people will put varying degrees of quality and effort into their writing. And you almost then need somebody else to review it and like make, like, okay, well, I have a question about this, I don't think you've covered

Kristopher (15:35)
yeah.

Garrett Dimon (15:39)
all of this stuff evolves, it's a moving target, right? You change providers, vendors, whatever it is. so it constantly needs to be updated and all of that kind of thing. And so being able to comment on it and say, Hey, can you clarify this part and the person can come back in. And so it's more of a dialogue. To me, that's kind of the key to do it. And then stay out of slack, like, ideally slack is best for emergencies, or like,

just water cooler stuff, but it very easily and quickly turns into more of an evolutionary, like everything just happens in here and then we forget to push it somewhere else. to me, you know, you can link to a Slack conversation from Notion. So you can always say like, here's the context, but we decided if somebody wants to go back and look at the context that can, but otherwise really the decision and the outcomes all the matters.

John Nunemaker (16:23)
Mm-hmm.

What about loom and video? Have you guys ever used loom or anything similar? Kris, you had a

Garrett Dimon (16:36)
egghead and we'd record all sorts of things even just from like a curiosity standpoint like I was playing with this tool here's me you know experimenting with it and more freeform like not necessarily you know all heavy duty stuff and then a lot of it would be more official like here's how to process a newsletter and that kind of stuff and in a way to it also kind of

laid out a roadmap for automation. So like when you want to automate something, it's like, that part's a good chunk to pull out and automate because computers are better at this. And so we would use it. then to the downside would be, you just have a ton of videos. And unless you've got somebody playing the role of librarian to keep everything organized and, and like structured, it just gets lost because it's just so much content.

John Nunemaker (17:10)
Yeah.

Kristopher (17:22)
my reaction or my, my guess, jerk back on that was I think more likely because I've been the recipient sometimes from like vendors and I to watch this 40 minute video when they're just trying to go through a quick thing. And so they have so much preamble to it. and I'm just like, I don't have time for this. And so I think that's sometimes the challenge with loom is this is not their time to like

to shine, like just tell me what is you need feedback on and do the click around on the mockup or whatever it is. I don't need to watch 40 minutes because that didn't save me any time from having the meeting with you. So I think I think that's sometimes the the the challenge I've experienced as a not the creator with loom but as a recipient of it.

John Nunemaker (17:54)
Yeah.

Yeah, it is optimized for the creator. The receiver is like less so. It reminds me of Jason Rudolph, who I worked with at GitHub. And I feel like he would always think very deeply when he made like a pull request or anything like that, who's going to receive this and read this and what would they want to see? so, know, headings and being succinct and bullet points and stuff like that, like trying to make whatever it was that he was trying to communicate really easy to receive.

And it typically was, you know, and I feel like that's important to think about who's on the other side of this. If you, might be easier to record a video, but then it's harder to, you know, watch that video. Yeah.

Kristopher (18:37)
Consume, yeah.

The other thing that you made, and I'm not gonna go too much off on tangent, but I think about that as you think of, I think it's relevant of like help docs and things like that that are maybe even customer facing of, know, is it video, is it step-by-step? And I think when I, and we can have a separate conversation on that, but you know, I think I get as a consumer frustrated if I only have a video option because I know I can't scan it quickly. But I know some people like to consume that.

John Nunemaker (18:46)
Yeah.

Mmm.

Same.

Kristopher (19:01)
You know, and I think if the instructions aren't clear step by step, a video time is helpful to, where did they click if there weren't screenshots? And so even with stuff I helped you guys with box out, it's like, let's do a video step by step and screenshots because that kind of covers everyone's, I say, learning style. Yeah, it's, I don't know. Yeah, it's interesting.

John Nunemaker (19:15)
Yeah.

Yeah, that's a good point. feel like the difficult, know, it's easy to make once it's harder to make, you know, the second time or to like redo every time, you know, apps change apps evolve. We've talked about that in the past about, you know, evolution. You just said that earlier, Garrett. And it's like, as those apps change, do you, is the point of change where you're like, okay, now we need to update all the videos or now we need to update all the screenshots, you know, same thing kind of on there. So

Garrett Dimon (19:45)
I wonder logistically if it could be effective to write exhaustive system tests around specific common tasks and then have it record. it's recording the video, right? It's recording the, the interactions, have it or it's video and then it'll just audit. like when you change a feature and you change the system tests,

John Nunemaker (20:01)
I see what you're saying.

Garrett Dimon (20:07)
now it's going to record that process. And now how that looks, if you were to record that video, or if because it's all automated in JavaScript behind the scenes, like you can't really see much, but I mean, you'll see the browser pop open and you know, it's going through all this stuff. So what if you record could automate things so could be a system test and be recorded such that it then gets uploaded to a central place. Always stick

John Nunemaker (20:09)
Yeah.

Yeah, that's a idea.

Garrett Dimon (20:32)
Now, whether it's worth it or not, I don't know. But that might be something interesting to tinker with someday.

John Nunemaker (20:37)
Yeah, I've been using Screen Studio and I really like it for recording. Like it's a lot faster than ScreenFlow for me to just record something and do some minor little tweaks like a zoom in here, a zoom out here, know, add some whatever music or things like that. It's really fast for like creating when you don't really want to spend a ton of time on it. I think it's great. It's like next level, you know, from Loom and things like that is what I would say.

Kristopher (20:43)
Mmm.

John Nunemaker (21:00)
But then it's like, where do you put it? You know, and like you said, how is the receiver going to want to receive it, you know, but I think about that a lot, because there's several things that like, I feel like you can almost only show if you talked about the meeting Kris, because I'm like, you know, again, cam or bookkeeper, I was like, well, we're working on forecasting and trying to get some idea of like, how can we budget into the future based on, past performance. And so she like whip together some QuickBooks stuff and send it to me and I'm like,

You know, I have gut reactions, but then translating those, typing them up would take me so long, you know, but then recording the video might take her so long or doing a call or finding a shared time. And so it's like, yeah, I think there is this like, you know, fulcrum point where it's, makes sense to record a video and then to send it to the person, but you probably want to like limit them and just say like, look, none of these are going to be longer than like

Kristopher (21:40)
Yeah.

John Nunemaker (21:54)
two to five minutes. They're gonna be really on target and you're gonna think about the person consuming it. And the goal is to save, like you had said earlier, a 30 minute meeting or a 60 minute meeting. If you send a 40 minute video, you might as well just sit down in real life and sync up or on Zoom and sync up. But if it's something that you can save time with, then maybe like a video makes sense. Again, I still have to figure out where to host that video, because I don't wanna upload it to YouTube every time, that takes forever. I just wanna drag it somewhere and share a URL.

Kristopher (22:08)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Garrett Dimon (22:22)
That's why Loom is nice, because you can just share it after your.

Kristopher (22:24)
Hmm.

John Nunemaker (22:24)
Yeah.

Kristopher (22:26)
Yeah, I think one of the, I have another follow up question, but I think one of the things I found, so I like using ScreenFlow. I used to QuickTime. They've had some, they don't use, guess, QuickTime anymore. Now it's like on Mac, it's a different screen grab app. But the file sizes end up being so big. And I'm like, like it doesn't, I don't need four, you know, I don't need that. I just need the smaller one. Because often, even

they ask how to edit something, let's say in a website. And I know if I send them some quick screenshots and a video, that will be quicker for them to see how to do the thing. And I just want to be able to attach it to an email. So it's like five megabytes or less. And, know, that's yeah. Anyway, that was just a thought of like, yeah, having that documentation. But probably 10 years ago, I thought of not to digress on this more. It's like, oh, I should create. This is before what what.

John Nunemaker (22:57)
Mm.

Kristopher (23:16)
instructions things are out there today and WP beginner. It's like I should create a course on setting up your WordPress site. Cause this is when you had to do it all manually, like literally, and it was terrible. And I thought I can sell this. And now I never obviously created it. I probably could have made some money on it, but I'm thinking, you know, having videos are not only good for internal, but also external of like, we do the same things over and over. Again, just say, I'm thinking of how do you save time? That's yeah.

John Nunemaker (23:24)
Yeah.

I just keep thinking there's gotta be, maybe there's not, maybe there's an app for this and we're just sitting here talking and the people listening are like, my gosh, these guys are morons. So please, by all means, know, whatever support at fireside.fm, just send us an email and tell us you guys are stupid. This is what it is that we all see it. So, but I was like, I would love this and I'm picturing the same thing for fireside eventually, like I want to just drop an MP3 in and like it makes a new episode. It transcribes it, it, you know, picks the title.

or gives me five choices for the title, five choices based on tone for the description, some keywords, some chapters, all that kind of stuff. I would love that kind of stuff to be automatic. I want the same thing for video. I wanna be able to just drop a video somewhere, have it upload, like AI suggest a title, description, full text, index search, that kind of stuff so that I can find it later.

has all of mine if I want to organize them, allow me to organize them, make them public or they're just unlisted and I just get a URL and anybody who has that URL can see it. know, like it's very similar to loom, but I feel like I just want to use my recording software and just, just have like a little, you know, upload. It's literally just a field. You just drag it in there and it just does its thing. I don't know. I I'm curious what people use for that kind of stuff. So definitely let us know what other, you know,

what you use at your company or I've heard confluence I've heard, you know, notion I've heard like a whole bunch of different tools like that. I don't know, I guess there's no great answer. So maybe that is the next frontier is this automatic drop it in AI all that I've also seen efforts. Have you guys seen the ones of like, you set up like I use Google for this I use you know, notion for this I use whatever for another thing and they try to be the search across all of that for you scope to your company

I've seen some tools like that. can't remember the name of them now, but I thought I've always thought that was kind of interesting. But I, before I was always like, I mean, it's not that hard to find, you know, a document. And now I'm in six different companies of, know, with varying choices for where to store a doc. And, know, like Kris and I have a building together and that's like Excel in a Dropbox folder. And then like, you know, I have box out and everything is like a Google sheet.

And then we have fireside and it's like, have Dropbox again, but we also have Google Sheets. But sometimes we were fewer and faster and now we're very good software. And then those two merged together. So there's folders for both of those that are separate. Yeah. I'm realizing now that people do have this pain. I'm starting to feel it myself as well.

Anything else you guys want to talk about or just wrap it up

Kristopher (26:13)
Yeah, I had some thoughts, but I think they're completely new topics for the future of like virtual assistants and stuff like that. I think that'd be interesting to hear what you guys have done. And I have some thoughts that I think that ties in a little bit of efficiency and internal efficiency. You know, should we have a virtual assistant do certain of these things for us to keep things updated? But I think we should save that for a different time.

Garrett Dimon (26:32)
Well, then there's the things like obviously long-term, you know, we don't need to be producing these podcast episodes, but short-term it's actually good research to, us to find those inefficiencies in fireside. we know what we want to fix and improve. You know, and so there's, there's a time where doing the inefficient thing is actually useful.

Kristopher (26:41)
Yeah.

John Nunemaker (26:51)
Yeah, because then you can make a playbook and you can give it to that virtual assistant. So yeah, cool. Okay, I think that's pretty much it for today. So I think this is almost like a request for feedback for all, 10 listeners, 100 listeners, whatever it is. This is what we want to know. We want to know, like, what do you use for What do you use for tools to share information? What's your

level for this is a text this is like you know text an image this is video how do you decide when things are internal versus external i'm curious about all those kinds of things so um if you want they can send that to support at fireside.fm that's the easiest way everybody will see it i'll make sure it makes it into our slack room all that kind of stuff um but yeah if you if you have that and you have thoughts on that we would definitely be we'd be open and as we you know narrow this out a little bit again we're three people right now it's a little easier

Kristopher (27:24)
Where should they send that? Yeah, go ahead. Where should they send

John Nunemaker (27:43)
But we have a few, you contractors and various other people that are involved so I can see it getting worse quickly to the same level as other companies, but I'd be curious what other people do and Hope that at least talking about this. Maybe it'll stir some discussion up online.

Kristopher (28:01)
depending on where you consume this, be sure to subscribe and give us a review. helps the algorithm. So we'll see you guys next time.