[Intro music] Skipper Chong Warson Hi, I’m Skipper Chong Warson. I’m a service designer, workshop facilitator, and leadership coach at How This Works co. Thanks for listening to the second season of the How This Works show. Are you curious about how people become top-notch in their field? On this show, I interview folks about how they got started in some particular line of work, where they are now, and key moments in between. Today, I’m talking with Joanne Weaver, who co-runs a design recruiting agency in the New York City area. She’ll talk about her background as well as her take on the design job market today, what it means to be looking for a job, along with some advice. Joanne, I appreciate you joining me. Joanne Weaver Aw, thanks Skipper, thanks for having me. I'm so glad to be here. Skipper Chong Warson So as we do with all of our guests, we're going to start with some opening questions and and I said something about your area of expertise, but could you build on that with your own introduction? Joanne Weaver Sure. So I basically have two separate lives. The main life that I think we're talking about today is my design recruitment expertise. So I run the Joanne Weaver Group. Started it in 2007 so we're on year number 17, and I co-run itwith Rebecca Levi, who's been with me since 2010 and we're basically a boutique recruitment agency based in New York, but we have national reach, and we recruit people that do UX and product design, which is kind of like the non, well, sexy, if you think about it that way, but it's like the non, like, oh, buy this shiny product kind of design, it's like more the functional, utilitarian part of digital design. So that's our main focus. We also do product management, user research, and content strategy, which are all, you know, kind of tech specific roles. But what we're going to talk about today is going to be more universal about people's job search and interviewprocess. And, you know, I'm an educator in some ways, like you know me and Rebecca will go to design schools in the area, give portfolio critiques. I do a live stream every other week called Design:Unfiltered on LinkedIn every other Wednesday at 1pm ET. So that's kind of one side of what I do, and then the other side of what I do is I'm a singer. I'm a singer and performer and songwriter. I've made some albums. I've made some music videos. Skipper Chong Warson Okay. Joanne Weaver Yeah, I perform on stage regularly at the Flatiron Room, and I've been in some, you know, an indie pop band called Broanne that was really, really fun. So kind of a mix of, like performance art and just, yeah, kooky stuff. Kooky stuff. Skipper Chong Warson Okay. Joanne Weaver Yeah. Skipper Chong Warson Is there a specific style of music that so you talked about, indie rock, but is there a specific style of music that you gravitate towards? Joanne Weaver I mostly sing jazz. Skipper Chong Warson Okay. Joanne Weaver So my first two albums were called Interstellar Songbook, and Interstellar Songbook II. And that's a mix of American songbook classics, so jazz songs from the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s. And then I mixed it with trip-hop, which was my favorite genre from the 90s. So that's Tricky, Morcheeba, and Massive Attack. Skipper Chong Warson Portishead. Joanne Weaver Exactly. Yep, you got it. And then also mixing it with sci fi. And I was really intrigued by the golden record that went out in the Voyager probes in the 70s, where it's got the sounds of earth that went out there. And so I just, I loved the movie contact. I just love the idea of we're sending out radio waves and sending out sound waves to the cosmos, and can anybody hear us? And so that was the inspiration for those albums. Skipper Chong Warson I say, okay, Joanne Weaver Yeah, yeah. Skipper Chong Warson And we're gonna get to a part of the show at the end where you talk about where you can be found. But is your music available on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon? Joanne Weaver Yeah, yeah. I think it's on all of those. I know it's on Spotify for sure. Skipper Chong Warson Okay. Joanne Weaver I perform under my name for the Interstellar Songbook albums. Skipper Chong Warson Okay. Joanne Weaver Broanne was my indie pop band, so we have an EP called "We're Totally Blowing Up," which was ironic because we actually kind of blew up as a band. We imploded as a band. Skipper Chong Warson Sure. Joanne Weaver Right after we released it, but it was a fun ride. It was a wild ride. I'm really proud of that album and and then I've also done something called Twisted Spritzer, which I think is also at in the interwebs, and that was, you like the name? Skipper Chong Warson I do like it, the play on Twisted Sister. And I imagine, like a spritzer, like a dream cool, cosmopolitan jazz. Was it jazzy? Joanne Weaver Yes, it was actually taking -- so I grew up on, like, 80s hair metal. I was a huge Guns N Roses, Skid Row, Metallica fan, you know, kind of late 80s, early 90s. So it was taking all these old, oh, Def Leppard, can't forget to mention Def Leppard. So I took all of these, like, 80s metal songs that I loved, and then made them into, like, jazzy loungy versions, which actually came from a conversation on a stoop in lower Manhattan, where I'm like, oh, Wouldn't it be funny if, like, Ratt's "Round and Round" was like, round and round, the kind of cheesy jazzy style, and the guy that I was talking to is like, "That's awesome." And then that just bore Twisted Spritzer. Skipper Chong Warson Interesting. You've tapped into something that is actually a hobby and love of mine, which is cover songs specifically. And when you take a song that is of a specific genre and has become famous in that genre, then to switch genres, whether you're slowing it down or speeding it up, or, you know, whatever the change you're making to it, the fundamental change that you're making to it. It reinterprets the song. You know, the first one that comes to mind is like Ryan Adams "Wonde wall," the cover of the Oasis song, and the Gallagher Brothers, who are nothing if not lots of ego and puffed upedness, and all of those things. I think I read somewhere that that they had said, and I think it was Liam who said that he'd never understood "Wonderwall" until he heard Ryan Adams' version, and he had slowed it down. He made it acoustic. He'd made it, you know, instead of like the pop song that it was. Speaker 1 Oh, how interesting that somebody who wrote the song didn't get it until somebody else put a mirror to him to show a different way. I love that. I love that that's great. Skipper Chong Warson Well, let's get into the meat of the show. This has been a great introduction, so I mentioned it a bit in the show's intro what we were going to talk about, but I want to hear it from you. What subjects do you know an awful lot about that we're meant to talk about today. Joanne Weaver You know, I come from the tech world. I've been in tech for 25 years now. So I started in the late 90s, and then I've been a recruiter for, let's see, 21 years. Skipper Chong Warson Okay. Joanne Weaver So I thought we'd talk about the things that I see from where I sit as a recruiter. You know how? And this is very general. It doesn't have to be people in tech, necessarily, but it's how to put your best foot forward in the job search. You know, maybe some interview strategies. You know what's happening in the industry right now. You know, the tech world, I think, is a microcosm of a bigger world, too. Skipper Chong Warson Sure. Joanne Weaver So I think just giving my perspectives on, yeah, like best practices, like how to land that job, or just how to think about your job that you're in already. Skipper Chong Warson Yeah. Well, let's start sort of at the beginning, because I'd love to hear how you got started in this work. As you said, You've been in tech for what 25 years? Is that? What it was? Yeah, been in tech for 25 years, and then the Joanne Weaver Group is 17 years old, almost old enough to vote now. Joanne Weaver (Laughs) Yep. Skipper Chong Warson But so I'd love to hear how you got started. How did you become interested in this work? What led you to start working as a recruiter? Joanne Weaver Yeah, so, you know, nobody dreams when they're a little kid like, oh, I want to be a recruiter any job that, like your parents don't understand what you do. You're kind of like, how did I, how did I fall into this? So I think, you know, a lot of recruiters come at it from so many different walks of life, and I still have to explain to my mom, like, what is UX, what is recruitment? She's like, I need to know what to tell my friends. So, you know, just, some for some definitions up front. So, you know, a recruiter is somebody, people call them a headhunter, right? So it's like, I'm basically matching a client, which is a company, the company that wants to hire somebody for a job. I'm matching them with the candidate, which is what we call the job seeker. So we're basically the go between, between the client and the candidate. So we'll get a job in from the client. We'll do lots of intake. Then we'll find the people to fill the role. We'll do intake with the candidate, make sure it's a good match, and then we'll see them through the entire process, through all the interview processes, through to final offer, negotiating their offer, etc. Sometimes companies have an in house recruiter. So, you know, any company you can think of will have recruiters that work just for them, who are looking to fill their internal roles. Skipper Chong Warson Sure. Joanne Weaver And then a third party recruiter or an outside recruiter, like me, we are separate from the hiring company, so it's my agency, so it's me and Rebecca that are working at the Joanne Weaver Group. Skipper Chong Warson Sure. Joanne Weaver And then we'll work with multiple companies, looking for all sorts of different people that fall within our niche. Skipper Chong Warson Yeah. Joanne Weaver So that's so we'll be working with, like, multiple jobs, multiple companies at the same time. Skipper Chong Warson Okay. Joanne Weaver So in terms of how I got into it, we know that Steve Jobs talk about connecting the dots, and like, you don't see how certain things in your life are going to connect until they connect. Skipper Chong Warson Sure. Joanne Weaver So I think one I always knew that I wanted to be an entrepreneur, so that was really strong in me from a young age. So my dad had his own architecture firm, my uncle had his own endodontist practice. So I could just do these really harebrained ideas when I was young, like I think it was fifth grade, I totally plagiarized Good Housekeeping because I was super obsessed with tanning, because this is the 80s, and so I, like, literally copied down, like, their tanning tips, and then I rebranded it as Joanne's tanning tips. Skipper Chong Warson Sure. Joanne Weaver Went into class and I had the sign up list like, do you want Joanne's tanning tips? It's only 25 cents. You know, I was gonna photocopy this and, like, set it, you know, give it to people, and then it's like, you know, the little clipboards going around the classroom. And I'm like, Oh, gosh, I'm gonna make all this money. Like, wow, look at all these people. And then I get the clipboard back, and, like, nobody signed it, you know, obviously didn't deter me. Skipper Chong Warson Sure, you kept going. Joanne Weaver Yeah, you know, just like, little things like that. Like, I was always thinking about, like, how can I make money? And, like, money was always really important to me growing up, I just kind of thought of it as, like, freedom and power and like, oh, I can do my own thing. Skipper Chong Warson Yeah. Joanne Weaver So I think that was kind of, you know, the seed that was planted that I wanted to do my own thing. Then at college at UC Berkeley, I was in a sorority. So a big part of being in a sorority is recruiting, so recruiting people through rush. I think they call it something different now, but this was like the mid 90s, so I was, you know, recruiting members to join our sorority, Chi Omega. I was always really good at connecting with people quickly, like, especially one on one. And so they'd have these gals come through they call "the walls." That would be really hard to open up and talk to, and they'd always send me in, like, Okay, send in Joanne to talk to "the walls." Because I was always really kind of, I think it takes a certain amount of empathy and curiosity just to like, see, like, what's going on behind who you are. So I was able to draw people out of their shells. And that was actually something really valuable that I learned in that process, is that when people seem cut off or stuck up, or like, better than you, oftentimes they're just scared or just like, not comfortable in the situation. So that was a good lesson. So, you know, I'd say the sorority was kind of my first taste of recruitment. And then after I graduated, I did an exchange program to go to London, program called BUNAC, okay? And I literally, like, walked in this room, and there's all these three by five cards of like, different jobs you could take. And it was like, Oh, my God. Like, my my life could go in all these different directions. It was a visual representation of, like, you know, where I could go. And I picked this card that was at a domestic recruitment agency called Gray Coat Placements based in the heart of London, and they placed nannies and butlers and gardeners and chauffeurs, you know, live in, cooks, live out, cooks, governesses, in the homes of the rich and famous. And actually, speaking of the Gallaghers, they were a client as a matter of fact. Skipper Chong Warson Interesting. Joanne Weaver Uh huh. I think it's long enough that I can reveal, reveal that it's been lots of, lots of years past, right? So I started as a receptionist, and the owner took a shine to me and eventually promoted me into the nanny desk. So that was my first taste of, like, proper recruiting. Skipper Chong Warson I see. Joanne Weaver And I really loved it. It was like, oh, there's a need over here. Skipper Chong Warson Yeah. Joanne Weaver And I'm getting to know this person and their likes and discs. Dislikes and their personality and their vibe, and then I'm filling the need by meeting all these people. And these were, like nannies that were coming from, like the Midlands and Scotland and all these places where they would go to, like nanny school. So it's like these, you know, it's a very stratified society socially. So I'd be meeting all of these nannies, and placing them with these like super wealthy people in London, and I just found it fascinating, I mean, from a cultural perspective, but also, just like from the matching perspective. Skipper Chong Warson Sure. Joanne Weaver So that was really fun. And then when I came back to the States, I thought I was actually going to open up my own nanny agency, because I got the taste of what that was. And I also just wanted to be an entrepreneur. Skipper Chong Warson Sure. Joanne Weaver But then I got a call, actually, ironically, from a recruiter that said, hey, there's a receptionist spot at this, you know, tech company in San Francisco. I'm from the Bay Area. Skipper Chong Warson Okay. Joanne Weaver Would you want to go interview and there's stock options? And I'm like, Okay, what's a tech company? What are stock options? And, okay, sounds good. Skipper Chong Warson Sure, sure. Joanne Weaver You know, I got that job, and this was, like, my MO is, like, getting the receptionist job and like, finding out who was cool, and like, where I wanted to go, and like, who's doing what? So I actually ironically interviewed for the recruiting team at Sciant. That was the name of the.com and it wasn't a match. Skipper Chong Warson Okay. Joanne Weaver And so I actually did not get into recruiting then, which, looking back, that was okay. It was just a different culture than I think -- Skipper Chong Warson Okay. Joanne Weaver Yeah, not really my tribe. So I think that was actually a really good thing. So I moved into HR. I did a very creative job, like making people feel good about working there. It's just about connecting with people and making people feel good. That was great. And then when the bottom dropped out of the .com world, I followed a singing dream, because, you know, everything in San Francisco was just tumbleweeds going down Market Street, like there was just nothing happening, right? And so me and a friend that I met from Sciant were like, Hey, let's go to the big city and, like, you know, follow our singing dreams. And so I did that in 2001 -- 911, happened right afterwards. Skipper Chong Warson Right. Joanne Weaver Some odd jobs, bartending, waitressing, and then I would say my big break was waitressing at this Midtown banker bar. It's not open anymore, but it was these regulars. These two women would come in all the time, and I was friendly with them, but then it was one day where they're like, Hey, we need to get back to the office. We're running late. So I was like, Oh, what do you guys do? And they're like, Oh, we're recruiters. And I was like, Oh, I was a nanny recruiter back in the day. And oh, gosh, I'm like, working 80 hours on my feet, like, working between that restaurant and the Blue Note because I wanted to make some jazz connections, but I was on my feet all the time. They're like, Oh, you have a receptionist job open. You want to interview? I was like, Well, that sounds familiar, so I did that, and I just learned everything. I learned about how to talk to clients. I was petrified to talk to clients at first, so huge imposter syndrome. I learned how to make contracts, how to talk to candidates, how to make my conversations really efficient. That was a cool job, because they're like, here's a desk, here's a phone, here's a computer. Give some clients, or else you're fired. Skipper Chong Warson Sink or swim. Joanne Weaver Sink or swim, yeah. And so it actually, it was a great testing ground, because it really shows you, like, Okay, are you resourceful enough to, like, be a good recruiter? You have to, like, prove yourself from day one. And so I did. Skipper Chong Warson Can we pull something out of what you just said? So yeah, earlier, when you were talking about recruiting for the sorority, and you said one of the reasons why you are often pegged as a person who spoke really easily to people you didn't necessarily have a lot of information about that you didn't know very deeply, and yet, in this scenario that you're describing as a new recruiter, you felt petrified, even though you seem to have, you have an ease in which you connect with other people, and yet you were scared. Can you say more about, maybe a little bit about that disconnect there? Joanne Weaver I think it was because money was on the line. Skipper Chong Warson Ah, that was the -- Joanne Weaver I think it was because like, Oh, I'm gonna get paid to do this if I do it. Skipper Chong Warson I see. Joanne Weaver Well, it's my job, like, if a sorority wasn't my job, it was just part of what you did by being in a sorority. I see. Joanne Weaver That's kind of like, Oh, if I'm just able to do it naturally, then great. But I think when all of a sudden it's like, Oh, it's my job. I'm supposed to be good at this. I'm supposed to lend confidence with the client that I know what I'm doing. That was tough. And actually talking about imposter syndrome even further. I had worked at that job at a staffing agency in New York called Gainer Staffing. I was there from like, for four years. So by the time I left, I was, you know, a good earner. I was, you know, a proven entity. I was good at what I did. And then when I went out on my own, there was a job I did in between at Razorfish as a national UX sourcer. And then I went full-time into my own thing. But in my first client meeting that I had as my own kind of business owner, I was also petrified, even though I totally knew what I was doing. But it was my own shingle. I'm like, oh. And it was kind of that feeling of, like, who am I? What gives me the right to do this, you know, to, like, claim that I know what I'm doing. Skipper Chong Warson Sure. Joanne Weaver And it was a friend's company, and so she was there. So it put me at somewhat at ease, but it was just, you know, I think with anything in life, I think if you're anxious about something or it feels uncomfortable, I think sometimes that can become your strong suit, right? It's just like doing it more and more and more, not avoiding it and just jumping in and just doing it. Skipper Chong Warson Yeah, and to your point, I think that this idea that stage fright, nerves, imposter phenomenon, imposter syndrome, whatever you want to call it, how it only happens to certain types of people. I don't think that's true. I think these things happen to everyone. However, some people are better at getting over that initial hurdle. Joanne Weaver I mean, how about you like, did you feel like, when you started your podcast? Did you feel like, oh my gosh, like, I'm a podcaster now, like, This feels weird. Or, what was your journey? Skipper Chong Warson Thank you for asking. And I'll try to keep this brief because I think the main subject matter is about you. Joanne Weaver Yeah. Skipper Chong Warson When I first started, I tried really hard to not talk this is going to sound ludicrous, but I was at an agency, and I know you've actually worked with them before because I've heard you mention it on design unfiltered, but I was at fjord once upon a time, and you know, this was in 2014, 2015, somewhere around there. I thought, well, there aren't a lot of design podcasts. I know Debbie Millman's podcast Design Matters, but it's not about product design. It's about branding and other kinds of creative design work. So I had this idea to start a podcast in the studio, and so the first five episodes, I mean, the episode, the equipment was shit, one of them we recorded on a phone, but the first five episodes I wanted to sit in the room to help guide the conversation, but I didn't want to talk. So I made, I made other people like, I would listen to things that they were saying, maybe they were talking about, you know, a voice UI paradigm, or, you know, something to do with user research, and then I would say, Okay, Michael, you asked Niamh this question, and Michael's like, why? They're like, I don't why am I? Why am I asking Niamh this question? You should ask Niamh this question? And like, no, no, I don't want to talk. I want this to be a conversation that you all are having -- it's so funny how we put ourselves into certain places and we want to do a thing, but we don't want to do this other thing, because whether we think we're good at it, or we think we don't speak well. We don't, whatever that thing is. It's funny how those things bubble up. Joanne Weaver Yeah. And I think if you have heat around something like if you have strong emotion towards something that you really, really don't want to do, I think that's really interesting information. I mean, I'll say anecdotally, in my own life, I feel like the things that I've had the most anxiety and nervousness around, it means that there's some sort of desire there, or there's like an opportunity there. If you didn't care, you wouldn't be nervous about it. Skipper Chong Warson Sure. Joanne Weaver Right? I had this friend once that said, if you really dislike somebody like that person can actually become a good friend, but if you feel neutral about somebody, like, maybe not. Skipper Chong Warson Yep. Joanne Weaver You know, and so performing -- Skipper Chong Warson The love-hate paradigm. Joanne Weaver Yeah, yeah, right, like, it's a strong emotion that I think can turn into something else. And you know, also too. And I was releasing Interstellar Songbook in 2012 and I knew I was going to have to put it up on stage for my record release party, I was nervous for months. I really didn't want to do it, and it was a great show. Tons of people came. It was one of the best nights of my life. I was so nervous I could barely even walk across the stage. Of course, I was wearing these crazy heels, and I was all glamor puss. But it wasn't until I got this regular gig at the Flat Iron room, which was every Friday night for three hours, like, weekly for like, a year and a half, like, that was, like, my Hamburg, like the Beatles' Hamburg, right? It's like, that's where I just, like, workshop stuff. Skipper Chong Warson Yeah. Joanne Weaver And I was in front of an audience every week. And then I've even learned to love performing, and now I love it. Skipper Chong Warson Yeah. Joanne Weaver So I'm picking up what you're dropping about what you're saying? Yeah, I get it. Skipper Chong Warson So let's dive back into your work as a recruiter in San Francisco. When do you decide to start your own agency? Joanne Weaver Yeah, so in San Francisco, I wasn't a recruiter. I was working in HR. I didn't get into the recruiting team. Skipper Chong Warson Oh, got it. Okay. Joanne Weaver So when I moved to New York. Skipper Chong Warson Okay. Joanne Weaver And then started working at the staffing agency. That's when I started doing recruiting. And then I specifically got into UX. Joanne Weaver Okay. Because a client wanted an Information Architect, which is what they called them back in 2003 which is now a UX designer, a product designer, sure. So I literally went on Monster, and the first person I found got the job. And I was like, Hey, this is fantastic. And plus, I just always liked UX people, like, I worked with UX people in the .com in San Francisco. I didn't really totally understand what they did, but I knew that they were, like, cool and dressed awesome, and they're just really nice people, like, very empathetic people that I just jived with really well. So it was just a natural fit, got it. And so when I left that job, I took a job at Razorfish as a freelance UX sourcer for them nationally. So that's when I really dove into UX as a discipline. And that was also great too, because Razorfish had a huge name, so all of a sudden, like, people are, like, knocking down my door to talk to me when before, I was chasing people. So I've met a ton of UX contacts. So that was really, like a great training ground to just build my network and really just, you know, kind of ask that community, what do I need to do to recruit for you effectively? And because it's such a wonderful, beautiful, warm, welcoming community, they took me under their wing and, like, taught me, like, here's a wireframe, like, here's all these artifacts that UX people make, and here's how to here's what questions you should ask us. So I'm forever indebted to them for that. So that's where I learned kind of the UX trade. And then Microsoft bought Razorfish for Avenue A for like, $6.2 billion that was like, 2000 it was like, this crazy thing. I was on a phone with this friend of mine from Sciant, and I was like, oh shit. I just got this email saying that we just got purchased. And he's like, Oh shit. You should go to the office and, like, make some friends right now, because your ass is gonna be grass. And I was like, Oh my god. Okay, so anyway, but I got laid off, which, and I really want to underscore this, because I think now in the industry, so many layoffs are happening, like, the past year and a half, it's been so rich with layoffs, but a layoff can be a really good thing. And I know that might sound kind of disingenuous, because there's a lot of anxiety and a lot of angst out there, especially if people are laid off for a long time. So I'm not sure you know, I'm not glossing over the realities of the pain of the situation, yeah, but so I really do firmly believe that when a door closes, a window opens. Skipper Chong Warson Sure. Joanne Weaver And you know, because of that layoff, that's when I opened up my own agency. And that's a beautiful thing, right? So, unbeknownst to me, I opened it right before the huge 2008 you know, crisis, like financial crisis, so, but also too, and, you know, I think people that are coming into the industry now, I think that's also a beautiful thing, because it's kind of like you have to learn how to drive stick. Skipper Chong Warson Yeah. Joanne Weaver By coming into such a tough industry. So it's like the habits that you and the, you know, the practices that you put in place now, you know, to get that job, to build your business, whatever it is like, those are going to be skills you're going to take with you for the rest of your job. And then when times are easier, it's going to feel so much easier. Skipper Chong Warson Yeah. Joanne Weaver Yeah. Skipper Chong Warson It's interesting. Simon Sinek talks about opening his agency. I think just before 9-11 happened, and you know, for people who want to start something, the best time to start something is now. And part of that is sure, right before 9-11, right after 9-11, housing crisis, financial crisis, .com bust, all of these things happen. But when you start this thing that you want to do. It might be that it's really hard and it's hard to get traction, but then maybe a lot of other people aren't starting a thing, right? And if you start when times are really good, then a lot of people are starting their own thing, yeah. So then you're having to deal with competition. So I think whatever time it is for you to start something, now's a pretty good time to do it. Joanne Weaver I completely agree. Skipper Chong Warson Yeah. Joanne Weaver I completely agree. I was listening to, there's a Peloton instructor named Tunde [Oyeneyin]. Skipper Chong Warson Okay. Joanne Weaver I was listening to her audiobook last night, and she was talking about, you know, her rise at Peloton. And she said something, I'm probably going to mess it up, but she said something about the opportunity of a lifetime. There's a lifetime on that opportunity, right? Like, it's not going to last forever. There's a window, sure, there's a window in which you must act to seize that opportunity. Because energy, you know, I'm a big believer in energy. You can take the girl out of California. You can't take the California out of the girl you know. So, energy could be woo-woo, but it could also just be your own motivation, like your own energy, right? And I think if you're feeling something you know strongly now, it's like, that's important to listen to, right? Because of that energy, it's going to shift and morph, like all things do, right? Skipper Chong Warson Yeah, yeah. Joanne Weaver Yeah. Skipper Chong Warson Okay -- so in your timeline, you've started the Joanne Weaver Group, and not a great financial time to be starting a new business, but that's when you start. Joanne Weaver I am not a morning person, or at least I certainly was not back then, okay, but I was working crazy hours. Skipper, I mean, my God, I was waking up at like, you know, 7:30a or 8:00a, which for me, was like two hours before my usual wake-up time. Skipper Chong Warson Sure. Joanne Weaver I'm working all day. I'm just plugging away, plugging away, just in my little, tiny studio apartment in the East Village, you know, and -- Skipper Chong Warson Yeah. Joanne Weaver And so I did that for, I guess, probably a year. I mean, I made very little money. I mean, thankfully, I had some savings, and there isn't a lot of overhead in recruitment. You just basically need a computer and a phone, really, like, maybe, you know, LinkedIn. Skipper Chong Warson Yeah. Joanne Weaver But yeah, it was, it was tough. And I think I was young enough at the time, I was 30, but I don't think I really understood, like, okay, the industry is like a dumpster fire, like it's bad out there. But I think I was just so impervious to that where I'm just like, Okay, that's happening over there, but I'm doing my thing. Skipper Chong Warson Right. Joanne Weaver I think I was just so dogged about just seeing it through that I was just working these insane hours. But interestingly, and I think this is a good lesson too, is that it wasn't until I went completely off the grid. I went to Burning Man that year, at the time there was, like, no WiFi, no cellular service, like there was nothing out there. So I had to completely disconnect for like, you know, two weeks, really, like a week of prep and then a week of the event, and I came back to New York after that, and it was like, boom, boom, boom. I made three placements within the next month. And, you know, for full-time placements, when it's your own agency, you get to keep all the money, which was also a very awesome thing, which I'd never experienced before. So then I made enough money to, you know, subsist for the year in a very short amount of time. Skipper Chong Warson Yeah. Joanne Weaver And I think that's when I was like, okay, like, this thing has legs, like, here's the proof in the pudding. But I was just like, you know, just plugged away. I was like, I know I'm good at this. I know I'm good at this. It's always darkest before the dawn. I just have to keep going. What else would I do anyway? But it was just so that I made three placements. And then a few years later. And this is also a great lesson that I learned is sometimes to take the lunch or, like, take the meeting, maybe you don't feel like it, sure, but the way that I met Rebecca Levi, my amazing business partner, we've been together for like, 14 years now. She's like -- Skipper Chong Warson Sure. Joanne Weaver We're each other's brains. We just love working together. So great. And it was a mutual candidate. So she was a recruiter at a different agency. We knew somebody in common, and the person that we knew in common was like, hey, Joanne, Rebecca is also an artist. She's a visual artist and she's a recruiter. You're an artist and recruiter. I think you guys should get together. It's kind of like, I don't know, like, you know, wasn't really looking for that. And I, you know, I'd already branched out and asked other recruiters to partner on things, because I never liked to work alone. So I just, you know, I'd like to contact all my competitors and be like, What the fuck are you doing contacting me. Let's be friends. Like, let's work on stuff and just form this community, which was great. So I kind of had that going on already, but then when I had lunch with Rebecca, both of us were kind of like, Oh, okay. Like, this is something and so that just, you know, spawned such a great working relationship. And we laugh about it now, because we're like, we're so busy, we're so busy, we're in New York, like, would we actually take the lunch now? Speaker 1 Right. Joanne Weaver Probably not. Skipper Chong Warson Right. Joanne Weaver It was just the right time in the right place, and thank God we took that lunch because it's been such a ride. Skipper Chong Warson Yeah, well, I think there are a couple of lessons in there. One is around the idea of taking a break, right? Even if you feel like things are hectic and chaotic and you don't know where to start, or you have too many things to do, or whatever the reasoning is there is the power of taking a break and maybe Burning Man is your break to take. But it also might be going out for a walk, right? It might be just doing something to disconnect from the work that you have at hand for some set period of time. We live in a day and age where our phones go with us everywhere but try to disconnect from the work as much as possible. If you can leave your phone at home go for a run, that's something that I do to clear my mind. Sometimes you know something that moves your body in a way that isn't in working mode. And then the second thing is about taking those opportunities. As you said, it's only in hindsight that we can see that we've made these connections and we've done these things that lead us to an outcome in the present tense. We can't see the we can think about the future, and we can plan certain things, maybe, but we can't see how things will net out. So, you know, to echo something that they talk about in the improv world, I do a lot of yes, and in certain modes, you have to be a sponge, in a way, to learn and receive and to connect with people. And I think that's one of the things that's painful for people who might be looking for a job right now I'm looking for a job right now to get out of that comfort zone of I go and I do this thing on a regular basis, and I do this work. I know how to do this work. I've done this work for X number of years, but I think it's the change part, the shift that feels difficult. Joanne Weaver Define the shift for you. Skipper Chong Warson The shift in regular rituals and cadences of things that you do during the day. So now, I find myself in very much networking mode in terms of trying to find some signal in what seems like a sea of noise. Joanne Weaver Yeah, yeah. Skipper Chong Warson So. Joanne Weaver Totally. I completely agree. I think taking a break and stepping away from things is so key. You're using a different part of your brain and a different part of your brain that's more receptive to new ideas and new strategies, I mean, and that can be in the job search. You can be with anything. Like when I was making Interstellar Songbook, I was up in Washington Heights with the producer Andre Fratto, and his process, like he's a composer, like music score for film and TV and albums. And his process, like his baked-in process, is to step away from the work, so he'll be working on the album. You know, he gets ear fatigue after a while, and then he'll step away and he'll watch the news, like, that's how he unwinds, is to watch the news, and he's like, that's when ideas will come like, oh, we should put a horn section here. Like, oh, we should maybe put some reverb on the chorus over here, just in my work and talking with people that are just so burnt out from the job searching process. Skipper Chong Warson Yeah. Joanne Weaver I think doing something physical, I think to your point, is great. It gets you out of your mind. The mind can be a dangerous place sometimes, and not always, the happiest place, in the vacuum of information, it tends to go negative. We're just hardwired that way. It's not our fault. That's just how we're built. And then the other part of it is being smart. And really thoughtful and targeted in your job search approach. So this is something I really wanted to talk about today, is that there's, I feel like there's a lot of people out there in the industry who are doing this, like spray and pray process. Skipper Chong Warson Right. Joanne Weaver It's like you're putting your resume out to so many different jobs, sure, and it's hoping you hear back from somebody, first of all, sending your information to a job posting online or on LinkedIn. Like, if it's going to a bot, if it's just going someplace digitally, it's basically, in most cases, going to a black hole, right? Skipper Chong Warson Sure. Joanne Weaver And I think a lot of people are very nervous about AI and technology is like a person actually reading this. I'm like, sometimes, no, like, sometimes it is a bot who's parsing through your resume to see how many keywords actually match up with the job description. Skipper Chong Warson Sure. Joanne Weaver But I think it's so important, and this is true of any type of industry, and up industry, down industry, any type of whatever discipline you are in your job. Skipper Chong Warson Sure. Joanne Weaver I think it's really important to network and to put your, you know, which it sounds like you're doing a great job of, put your resume and portfolio, portfolio, if you're a designer, into somebody's hands, like a real person's hands, metaphorically, digitally, right? So it's like, if you see something on LinkedIn that you like, and you're like, oh, okay, great. Like, who do I know that works at that company, or who do I know that knows somebody that's in a hiring manager position at that company, and then to send your stuff to that person and say, Hey, would you do me a favor? People love doing favors for each other. By the way, I think people get really afraid to ask for favors, but I think people really love being in a position to help people out. Can you send my information to them? And here's a little blurb that talks about, and this is the other piece I really want to get through, the specificity. So here's why I think I'm a really good fit for this job in particular. And to keep it really short and sweet, you know, long paragraphs outlining all your experience and all the ways you're a good fit just to meet a recruiter from looking at, you know, so many, so many emails and, you know, submissions over the years, usually tells me that you're trying to talk your way into it. You're probably not the strongest match for it. Skipper Chong Warson Sure. Joanne Weaver To something really clear and concise, make it easy for them, like good UX in the process, right? A good user experience. Like, know your users, what do they need? They need to get through your stuff quickly. Skipper Chong Warson Yep. Joanne Weaver And then also, I think, just in terms of how you're presenting yourself, it's maybe making multiple resumes, right? Like, there might be somebody who, for example, is a really good product designer, but they're also a great researcher -- those two things can go together really commonly, and they might be applying for both sorts of roles. Have a research resume that you know lists those titles, like list research first in your titles, and have your objective be very research-focused. Just, I think it gets lost on people that in order to be called like, in order for people to be like, Oh, this, this person could be a good fit, I'm willing to spend the time to get to know them, your presentation has to be really, really tailored to that particular job and that particular company, and really to take the time to research the company, find out what they're all about, show that you've done your research when you reach out. So you're not going to send as many applications. But I think if you really specify, and get very specific with your materials, and you're also networking and putting in the right people's hands. If you're doing that with like 1/10 as many opportunities as you are with the spray and pray method, your return on investment is going to be so much higher. It's really worth the extra investment, even though it might not feel as efficient, it actually is way more efficient. Skipper Chong Warson Yeah, for as much as is being made of AI, AI tools, bots, and some evil machine out there that is working against people to get a job. I think we still live in a human-centric world. And you've talked about this idea of user experience, user-centered design, human-centered design. And the reality is, is that we are social creatures. And as you said, people want to help. They do. They may not have enough time in the day to really focus and, you know, be available to everyone who needs help. But people do want to help. And that's one thing that I've been reminded of in this season of my life where I am working to figure out what my next work is, when I connect with people, I mean upfront, there are some people that I haven't chatted with for years, and it's been accidental. It wasn't intentional. I think of them quite fondly. However, there is something that I need to ask them, and so, you know, I make that very clear upfront. I try to make it a two-way street. It's not just me asking for something, but it's, how can I learn more. How can I uncover something that I'm just not aware of right now? Looking at what I'm doing right now as a sprint of user research so I can learn more about what the market is looking for. You know, I think there's a lot of things that are happening in the design world, this line that's becoming fuzzier between product and design. There are many more things that a designer does that are things that a product person used to do, and the same for engineers or development where there are a lot more designers who can do front-end code, and maybe even things that are much more involved in the development side. And so being a designer isn't just about one thing, but if you're looking for work as a designer, then you have to be able to focus in and say, These are the things that I do. And so when I look for a role, I look for this instead of saying, oh, yeah, there are 20 jobs that are posted on LinkedIn, or Indeed, or, you know, whatever job board you're looking at Hiring Cafe, all of these different places, and I'm just going to apply to them all. It's like, okay, well, good luck with that. Yeah, probably not going to have a very good success rate. Joanne Weaver Right, right? Absolutely. I think niching, you know, presenting yourself with a niche, and you might have a couple of different niches or a few, but I think, you know, presenting that strong niche that is relevant to that job is really important, or just to even have a niche, right, like, people know you as, like, oh, like, Skipper is really good at qualitative research, or, you know, whatever it might be sure, you know, as I was listening to some marketing seminar, and this woman was talking about how she's a writer, and she and she writes all sorts of different copy, long form, short form, you know, UX writing, hierarchy, headlines. And she really does it all, you know. And I think when you're in this industry, you have to ramp up really quickly, and, like, understand your subject matter really quickly. So she was able to do that. But she's trying to be all things to all people. So as soon as she niched and said, I am a copywriter that focuses on diabetes and diabetes health, all of a sudden her phone was ringing off the hook. You know, email was -- you know, the metaphorical phone ringing off the hook. Skipper Chong Warson Sure. Joanne Weaver Because people can latch on to it, right? If you're all things to all people, there's nothing to latch on to. Skipper Chong Warson It's too general. Joanne Weaver Yeah. And that can be from a professional sense, but can also be, and I think this is, like, the fun part of networking and job searching is also just like, letting your personality shine through. Like, what makes you unique that maybe is outside of work? Skipper Chong Warson Yeah. Joanne Weaver Right. Like, for example, I'm a crossword puzzle nerd. I love crossword puzzles. I've like gone to a couple of crossword competitions. Not that I'm any good. It's kind of a lark. My boyfriend entered me in the National crossword championship, but it was just something I love to do. And I met this gal that I was coaching, and she had on her resume that she loves puzzles. And so it's a great conversational opener, right? Because people are looking for someone who can do the job and has the skills to do the job, but they're also looking for like a colleague and somebody that they can get along with and that they want to see every day, and that they're going to have great conversations with and have that some sort of shared, you know, interest or, you know, some sort of connection, right? Skipper Chong Warson Yeah. Joanne Weaver And I think to your point earlier. Yes, we are all human. The human aspect of this cannot be understated or looked past. Like I always like to say, we're all just cave people who like to sit around a fire and tell stories. Skipper Chong Warson Sure. Joanne Weaver That's who we are. That's us in this modern world. We're not really built for this. Skipper Chong Warson So we talked about, you know, the idea of niching. We talked about the idea of networking, the importance of networking, especially right now, to cut through some of that noise -- what are other ways in, so someone comes to you and says, I'm looking for a job. What are the things that you so there's the there's the learning more about them and figuring out, how are they unique as a person, what are their specific skill sets? Things like that? What are things that you might suggest or recommend to them to do as a job seeker? Joanne Weaver Yeah. So specifically, like, working with a recruiter like me, this could be in-house recruiters or also third-party recruiters like me. I think what people don't often understand is that our time is really limited. Skipper Chong Warson Sure. Joanne Weaver And we have to fill the jobs that we have open, right? So, you know, I'll get a lot of people contacting me and being like, hey, you know, can we have a coffee? Or can we hop on the phone for 30 minutes and you can give me all this basically free advice about my resume and portfolio and like, you know, I'm really allergic to that now, just because I've been doing this for so long that I think people are coming to me like, it's not their fault. It's just they don't understand how we work. I don't get paid unless I fill my client's role, so I need to keep my client and those roles ever in the forefront. So you know, I will hop on the phone with you if a) I'm doing a paid coaching call with you, if I don't have anything open for you right now, you know my time is valuable. Let's do that. Or b) if I do think you could be a good match for the role. That's when I'll hop on the phone and get to know you and like, you know, do my patented, you know, very thorough screen. Skipper Chong Warson Right. Joanne Weaver You know, I think especially in this industry, I think the industry right now is changing for the better, like we are seeing, like, more inbound jobs coming to us, as opposed to us running them down, like a lot of outbound. So we're seeing some nice movement in the industry. So I'm hoping we're getting out of this dark period that we've been in for the last year and a half. But the fact still remains that there are a lot of people on the market. So there's a large, you know, as you put it, nnoise-to-signalratio. Joanne Weaver Yeah. Joanne Weaver How do you stand out from the crowd? So, you know, there's just some very basic things that I see, like there's low-hanging fruit that I see people not taking advantage of, which is they reach out to me. You know, know that my time is limited. Create a good UX experience for the person looking at your stuff. So send me all your materials. For God's sake, send me your materials. So, you know, don't just reach out to me like, Hey, can I send you my materials? Send me your materials, right? I will look at them if it looks like your background could be good. Like, I will, I will plumb more deeply and see what you got. Skipper Chong Warson Sure. Joanne Weaver So your resume, your portfolio, if you if that's applicable to you, you know, maybe a couple of sentences about you know who you are, what you're looking for. Like, are you based in this certain area? Are you looking for hybrid on-site or full remote? What kind of comp are you looking for? Like, all this information you can give up front, like, really saves a lot on the back and forth. So I'm looking for, like, efficiency and communications, which, to me, is a signal of professionalism. And, like, having your package, like, really tight. Skipper Chong Warson Yeah. Joanne Weaver You know, if I'm, if I post some, if I post a job on LinkedIn, you know, I might be getting like, 100-150 responses, right? Especially in this market, it's way too much to dig through. So if you know, if you can help me by giving me a few bullet points about what in your background is specifically a match for this specific job that I have? Skipper Chong Warson Yeah. Joanne Weaver And then if you can also, if you have a portfolio, point me, or this could be also for your resume, too, if that's not applicable to you, but like, give me to certain things in your portfolio, like, send me separate links. Like, I usually like to have, like, one -- your portfolio should be in a single link, right? It should be like, a Figma presentation or a website, or, you know, something like that, multiple links. No, so go. But in this case, you could say, Here's my main link. Here's my main portfolio link, but here are a few things I want to tease out for you so you can go straight to these projects and see, like, what you're asking for. This is what I do. It's just like, really making those outreach communications just really efficient and very targeted. And then if we do get on the phone, then, you know, just again, just to come prepared, you know, you can be a little more honest, a little looser with me as a recruiter. Because, you know, you can kind of tell me like, Oh, God, my last job was really tough because X, Y, and Z, I don't want you to go too far, you know, into like, all the drama and the detail, because then I'm going to be like, oh, like, what are they going to say to my client? But, you know, give me, like, the real poop -- Skipper Chong Warson Level of professionalism. Joanne Weaver Yeah, yeah. You know, with, like, a certain kind of deeper level of honesty with me, even maybe with the client. Skipper Chong Warson Of course. Joanne Weaver I'm kind of looking for, you know, how you present yourself, how you present your work, how you talk about your work, what were your successes? Skipper Chong Warson Yeah. Joanne Weaver You know, maybe everybody loves a good like a hero's journey tale, you know, like Star Wars, like he's on Tatooine, and everything's going wrong. What went wrong? Like, what in your job was just not happening and it wasn't going your way? Like, how, how did you change it? How did you make it better? Yeah, and even, like, somebody being honest, like, there was a guy, Nick Kroetz, who was working at PolicyGenius at the time, and I saw him give a talk about this future change they were doing, and their hypothesis was that it was going to change their product and have this much more income. And I loved his talk because it talked about how it was a failure. This product was a failure. And I love that he was brave enough to talk about it. And then, of course, he talked about, okay, well, he pulled a victory out of the jaws of defeat, and this is how we did it. Skipper Chong Warson Yeah. Joanne Weaver So I think having some good stories and just and really being efficient in your communication around, how you fit this role, and also just being personable with me, you know, taking time to connect your interviewer. I think a lot of people get scared and they're like, Oh, I'm being judged, and I've got to really put on the, you know, the show, exactly, but it's like, it's, it's a real person who's interviewing you with their own fears, like they might be fearful that you don't like them or that you don't want the job, right? So I think taking kind of that power, like all that power you're giving them, and just like, Hey, these are two people. These are two cave people sitting around a fire, telling a story to each other, right? Yeah. Skipper Chong Warson Well, and I think to add on, not only do you have the job seeker in the situation right, and there are, unfortunately, many of them right now some of whom have been in this situation for a significant period of time, but then you also have your clients who are looking to fill roles. So not only are you fielding inquiries from job seekers, but then you have your clients that are asking for very specific things, and there are things that you need to do as a recruiter in order to get clarity on who is the type of person that they're looking for for this role. So there's a little bit of back and forth in that client intake, yes? Joanne Weaver Oh, yeah. Oh, definitely. I mean, it's so funny, Skipper, because when I was little and I was thinking about, like, What job do I want to do? And I always thought of sales as being so yucky, and like, used car salesman. Like, that's how I equated sales. And I remember looking at myself in the mirror. I was like, Joanne, if you're ever a salesperson, you really have to rethink your life now. And it's so funny, because, to your point, like, what you're bringing up is the fact that a recruiter is a double-sided sales job, right? Skipper Chong Warson Sure, yep. Joanne Weaver It's not just a salesperson, but I'm like, a double salesperson, right? So you're like, selling. I mean, that's kind of a gross way of putting it, but you are, you're understanding the person that you're repping, right? So you're understanding, you know, the "product," if you want to get really kind of technical about it, you're understanding what it is that you're that you're providing to the client. But then you're also understanding what the client has to provide, and what are they all about. Skipper Chong Warson Right. Joanne Weaver So, I really love that piece. I love understanding. And this used to be, like, the scariest piece for me. Like, I used to be so intimidated by clients that, oh, they hold the money bags, and I really want to win them over, and, you know, but now it's like, oh, like, they have an opportunity for someone to step up into and, like, what are they all about? So it's doing a really deep intake on both sides. So it's understanding the client, not just the job, but it's like their culture, how are they growing as a company, and what is their vision? And, you know, not every client's a good match, right? Like if it's not the right culture vibe for us, or if they work with us in a certain way that we don't work in that way, then, you know, we can kind of amicably move on. So we take on clients. I'd say most of our clients tend to be, you know, startups of varying kind of stages of maturity. Because, you know, I came from the startup world. I love that. Let's build a plane as we're flying. It kind of energy. I just love that. And it takes a very kind of entrepreneurial, interesting person to work well in those environments. So I love working with those people. But, you know, we'll work with Fortune 500s. We'll work with agencies sometimes. So it's, it really runs the gamut, but yeah, so it's, it's understanding both sides of the equation really well, and then also understanding the psychology of helping somebody go through change. It's like change management, like, how can they -- Skipper Chong Warson Yeah. Joanne Weaver How can they leave their current job if they're already employed or if they're not employed? How can they shift their mind into this new role? So a lot of it is just, what if it is just kind of reflecting back to them, like, what they want and what they say they want, and uncovering more under what they say they want. Like, what do they really want? They're saying they want something, but what do they really want? Skipper Chong Warson Yeah. Joanne Weaver So I it's a really cool job. It's a really cool job. I mean, you know, I think with any job, some days you're kind of like, oh gosh, I just want to get on the Appalachian Trail for six months and just, you know, screw it all, but, but that's what I like about it. So I'm so naturally curious about people, connecting with people, what's going to be something that really fulfills them and changes their lives, really, and helping them sometimes see their own self-worth. Sometimes they can't always see it. But since you know a lot about my job, sometimes it's like being a cheerleader and giving them confidence and cheering them on, and the job search process can be really lonely and really kind of scary. So it's like providing transparency to it and feedback and lots of help and support is just really fulfilling. Skipper Chong Warson Yeah, is there anything that we haven't talked about yet that you'd like to get into some subject matter we've bounced around quite a lot, and I think landed on some really meaty areas. But is there something that you would like to talk about that we haven't covered yet? Joanne Weaver What comes up a lot in the job search process, which I'd love to weigh in on, is that I think when people are looking at a role that's a stretch for them, right? They're stretching up into something, or they're switching careers. Or, you know, I think with all this, you know, the COVID times that we've had, which was like the needle scratching across a record, like, what? Skipper Chong Warson Right? Joanne Weaver And it's like so many people left the city, like the major cities, like, people like, really, I think they saw like, oh, there is a different reality. It was like they woke up like, oh, I can, I can live in the country if I want to, or I can do this or I can do that, right? I think there's this energy of, like, oh, maybe I could do something different. But it also comes with a lot of fear, right? Skipper Chong Warson Sure Joanne Weaver You know, could be that imposter syndrome we're talking about. It could be just, you know, I think a lot of people's core wound is, I'm not good enough. And, like, Can I do this? Right? I think that's super, super common. So I wanted to bring up something. There's a coach named Tara Mohr and she she has this book called Playing Big, and it's also this workshop that she does regularly. And so it's mostly about coaching women because she finds that women are just they know that they're not fully fulfilled, like they're playing small, right? Like they're not totally growing into their power and like, doing what they really, really want to be doing, and maybe that secret thing they don't want to tell anybody about, or even themselves, like it's just so big that they're scared of it. And she talks about two types of fear, okay? And these are Yiddish phrases. There's Yirah versus Pachad. And Pachad is like that scary fear. It's like, oh, I'm afraid of the plane crashing, or the monster under the bed, or I'm scared of getting laid off, or, you know, things that are kind of survival, you know, it's like threat and panic. Skipper Chong Warson Right. Joanne Weaver But Yirah is a type of fear where it's there's like a certain she calls it exhilaration and awe around it. Skipper Chong Warson Okay. Joanne Weaver Like, oh, this job scares me. Or, like, changing jobs scares me. But it's scary in a good way. It's like that fear of like, Ooh, who do I have to become in order to step up into this? Skipper Chong Warson Right. Joanne Weaver And her advice, and my advice is to really lean into that. Skipper Chong Warson Right. Joanne Weaver That's where growth happens, when you're uncomfortable. Skipper Chong Warson Right. Joanne Weaver And, you know, I think there are many different strategies to become more comfortable. I think, you know, exposure therapy just at its very core, just like practicing and just like sticking your toe in the water, not running away, being kind to yourself, coaching yourself through it, like being your own best friend, maybe you need to, like, parent yourself. You know, I think we could all do that. Skipper Chong Warson Yeah. Joanne Weaver But it's like, what we're talking about earlier, like the opportunity only has a certain lifetime and there's a certain energy there, like that door might close, like, What's there for you? I think leaning into that is important. Skipper Chong Warson I think there's a wonderful metaphor that we're just beginning to craft in this conversation, which is as a job seeker leveling up your career, or changing jobs into something else. Think about what that experience looks like, right? What does that journey map look like for you and for folks who are coming along this ride with you? So how can you enlist them in the process, and then how can you make it easier for people to join you in this process? So I think there's something here around that, that notion of how to go about this next activity that you want to do. When you were talking about playing big, I was thinking about that character and Ted Lasso, the character of Rebecca. Have you watched the show at all? Joanne Weaver But everybody tells me, I have to watch it, so it's okay. I'm with you, though I'm along for the ride. Skipper Chong Warson So she owns the football team, the main football team, the soccer team that is part of the show. She has a thing when she is feeling less than or she feels smaller, where she does this thing, where she stands in front of a mirror, and she makes herself actually bigger. She opens her mouth like a lion. And it's really fantastic and yet humbling to see this character, who is very powerful, is very confident, is very a lot of things, who feels less than she does in that moment. This is the thing that she does to make herself feel bigger so she can have that superhero posture and walk into a room and portray confidence, even if she doesn't feel confident. Joanne Weaver Oh, yeah. I mean, I think if you don't have those human frailties, you're a psychopath. Skipper Chong Warson Sure. Joanne Weaver I mean, I think the most confident big people. I mean, you look at like somebody like Tony Robbins, right? Like this powerhouse. I mean, he's very honest about his own foibles and weaknesses and like where he came from, like very humble beginnings. And, no, I think it's so humanizing because it's so true. I mean, and whenever I get nervous, I think, you know, people, when they see me perform on stage, they're kind of like you get nervous, like, really, like, you seem so confident up there, right? I know, I, you know, I think I'm a good actress. I mean, people, I think something that people don't realize is that people don't really know how you feel, unless you tell them, because people are just kind of in their own heads a lot of the time. Not really thinking about you. So unless you're just like, I am so nervous right now, they probably won't know. Skipper Chong Warson Right. Joanne Weaver But just a little tip for when I get nervous, because, you know, I will, I will, you know, there's, like, a different kind of performing situation. That's a stretch for me. I always think about this phrase, like, when you get nervous, focus on service, which I love, because it's like, what do I have to give to this situation, right? Skipper Chong Warson Right. Joanne Weaver And that could be with the job search, too, the interview process. It could be anything. It's like, what do I like? What are the special gifts that I have to bring to the situation, that I want to give to other people? Skipper Chong Warson Right. Joanne Weaver So, you know, stage fright, singing is probably the most kind of common stage fright, or, you know, speaking in front of a group. Skipper Chong Warson Sure. Joanne Weaver But it's what do I have to give to people? And when I think about, and I think sometimes I get nervous when I'm just like, I'm about to give a lot of myself. Skipper Chong Warson Sure. Joanne Weaver And that's what I want to give people an experience. I want to have people feel emotions. I want people to be taken on this ride with me in this song. And I want this to be this, like, very kind of enveloping experience. I want people to forget about their day-to-day and the grind. I want to have this exalted experience. Skipper Chong Warson Yeah. Joanne Weaver So it's like, how can I give that to them? And then I'm giving it to myself, really too, but I think it's focusing on things external to you because I think anxiety makes you very focused. So getting out of that headspace and like, Okay, what do I have to give -- can be really healing. Skipper Chong Warson Modeling and focusing, yeah, both of those things. So I know that we could continue talking. And there's actually a bunch of stuff that we didn't talk about, that we talked about in our pre-conversation. But let's go ahead and wrap things up. And the way that we normally wrap things up on the show is we have some closing questions that we ask all of our guests. Joanne, could you share a significant lesson that you wished you learned earlier in your life or your work? Joanne Weaver I think, talk to people, and I think people want to be talked to more than you think they do I think we're all our heads are in our phones. We're on our little bubbles. Skipper Chong Warson Sure. Joanne Weaver But I think people are really craving connection. I think there's a lot of misery in the world now, because we don't have a lot of connection, and we are all in our digital doodads. Joanne Weaver Sure. Joanne Weaver All the time, but it's conversations, even if they're just, you know, kind of in passing, right? Like, oh, I'm talking to a stranger on the train, or, you know, I'm telling somebody that. Like, I was having a really rough morning last week, and I was walking around Carroll Gardens, and I was just like, you know, I'm just gonna, like, Give love bombs to people. And so I just, like, walked by this woman, it was at a cafe, and it's just like, I love your pants. And I did, they were amazing, awesome, like, multi-colored pants. I was like, I love your pants. And she looked at from her book or her whatever, and she was like, thank you. It's those little moments of connection. It's like you're giving them, like, energy, you're giving them love. And I think it's those moments, those moments of connection, you know, that could be transient, or they could actually open up into something really big. Like, if I didn't ask those people in the restaurant, those women about their work, like, I would never have started my career as a recruiter, right? If I hadn't taken the lunch with Rebecca, I never would have, you know, had this amazing business partner. I think it's getting out of your shell, the comfort level of, like, staying in your bubble. Skipper Chong Warson Yeah. Joanne Weaver And just engaging with the world around you, even if it might feel scary or you don't know how you're going to be received. Like, what's the worst that can happen? The person's just like, I'd rather not talk to you. Like, okay, doesn't mean that I'm a terrible person. It just means like, oh, I tried to connect. It didn't work. Skipper Chong Warson Right. Joanne Weaver I think that's why I love the show called "Alone," where these people are, like, living solo in the wilderness, just, you know, trying to survive for as long as they can by hunting and trapping and, you know, building fires. And if you know the last one standing wins, like, a million dollars. But I just, I love that, because it's, like, it's completely devoid of technology, and they're just for themselves, and they always have these, like, incredible, like, life realizations out there doing nothing, but that's how we lived millions of years, like, that's how we're hardwired. So. Skipper Chong Warson Yeah. Joanne Weaver Yeah. Skipper Chong Warson So be authentic about the way that you connect. It sounds like you're saying and, you know, reach out. Because, as you said, I think a lot of us, don't get enough of it in our day to day. Joanne Weaver Yeah. Skipper Chong Warson Yeah. So is there something that you're watching or you're reading or listening to that's really exciting for you right now that you would recommend to listeners? Joanne Weaver So I just mentioned that show "Alone," and actually a very good friend of mine, Dan Bree, was their executive producer for quite a few seasons, so he would give me the skinny on all the contestants afterward. So that was really fun. Joanne Weaver Nice. Joanne Weaver So I just love that show. It's like, you know, kind of man/woman against nature. They're not against nature. They're really kind of with living with nature. It's just fascinating, and they have to record everything. And it's just, I love that. And then I actually just finished listening to an 18-hour audiobook. It was a biography on a certain 80s slash 90s pop sensation, which I'm not gonna actually say who it is. Skipper Chong Warson Okay? Joanne Weaver Because, and the reason why I'm excited about it is that I basically had, like, creative writer's block and writing my own music for a year, and so I've been thinking about putting up the show, which is kind of a cabaret show about this person's music and life. I've always had a very strong connection to him. Skipper Chong Warson Okay. Joanne Weaver We actually sing in the same key, which is pretty rare, because he's like a high baritone, and I'm but I just really, I don't know, I've just always loved him, and always just felt very connected to him, like spiritually, in some way, kind of weirdly. So I just finished listening to a book about his life, and I'm starting the planning process of putting up a show about him. Skipper Chong Warson Do it. Do it. Do it. Joanne Weaver Yeah, I know this is not that energy is not going to last forever, right? Skipper Chong Warson No, you have to take advantage of it. These seasons come and go, and I think that's something we don't always realize totally. So if you were unexpectedly granted a day off with unlimited resources you could defy the constraints of time and space. What would you do? Joanne Weaver So I like that you use the word space. So that got me thinking big Skipper, nice, because there's no constraints. I would love -- and this harks back to something I said earlier I'd love to zip through space. I'd love to be in space. I want to see what's out there. I know I spoke about the Golden Record. Yeah, they sent it aboard Voyager One and Two back in 1977 and the Golden Record is basically sounds of Earth, it's greetings in 55 languages, and -- Skipper Chong Warson It's a record on vinyl, right? Is, no -- Joanne Weaver No, I think that, what is it? It's, um, I think it's like, some, like, really, you know, very long-lasting metal. Skipper Chong Warson Okay, oh, gold, maybe Golden Record, sure, yeah. Joanne Weaver Yeah, the golden record. And it also has, like, instructions on how to play it and how long it's been out there in space where Earth is located, yeah. And then there's this, this hand-carved inscription that says, "To the makers of music, all worlds, all times," and it's built to last between 1-5 billion years. Skipper Chong Warson Wow. Joanne Weaver So I just that just blows my mind that, like NASA, like we have, like this huge, like, multi-billion dollar national organization that took the time, like, they think it's important to put this out in space, and that, to me, signifies hope, like there's hope, like there's something else out there. I would love to know, like, where is this other life? You know? Is it way advanced? Is it, you know, you know, billions of years behind us? Is it single-cell organisms? Like, I would just love to know what's out there, because I feel like that would just unlock the secrets of life in the universe. And was fascinated by that stuff. Skipper Chong Warson Yeah, 100% I mean, most people have not gone beyond the lower atmosphere, right, in our travels and everyday life. So space would be amazing. What's one thing that you think will be true, that you either think will be true or you hope will be true in a year? Joanne Weaver So we briefly touched on AI in our conversation. Skipper Chong Warson Yeah. Joanne Weaver I think AI is going to completely change the face of our society in ways that I personally can't fathom. I don't know if anybody can at this point. I'm sure there's people that are further along in this thought process than me, but I think that's going to change. Certainly our industry. Is AI going to take over making, like, you know, kind of production-level wireframes? You know, certainly the writing of ChatGPT is not great yet. But is that going to improve? Like, I think -- Skipper Chong Warson It's getting better. Joanne Weaver Yeah. And I think, you know, things are going to improve exponentially over time. So I think that's going to be an explosion of kind of seismic proportions that I don't think we know yet. And then, you know, I think in kind of a kind of smaller container, I think, I think we're going to be out of this job slump. I really hope. That's a hope. That's a hope, but also a prediction. You know, look, you know, I've been through this, and I'm sure you have too. It's like, you know, going through multiple like highs and lows in this industry. You know, 2001 was a super slump. 2008 was a super slump. 2022 was amazing. I mean, almost too amazing, companies over-hired, and that's why we had a lot of layoffs after that. But I mean, God. I mean mid-level designers normally make like, $140K they were making like $200K, $220K and I have clients taking aside, and be like, should I be looking for a job right now? Directors would be like, hey. Like, I think I'm. Making the same as, like, a mid-level designer like this is not so cool. Skipper Chong Warson That's right. Joanne Weaver So I think we're gonna have an upswing. It feels like it feels like we're on the bottom, the bottom part of the upper curve. Skipper Chong Warson Well, I've definitely heard from a lot of people who work for companies, and they've done their books for the, you know, first three quarters, and now it seems like they have a surplus. So I think part of seeing maybe some more of these job listings and more of this interest is because companies are saying, Oh, we do have some more money to spend for the rest of the year. So contract, full-time, etc. I think some of that is already beginning to burble to the surface. So I hope so. Joanne Weaver I like that word, burble. Skipper Chong Warson So Joanne, for people who want to find out more about you, your work, we've talked about a few things during the show, and we'll link to them, you know, in the sequence of our conversation. But where can they find additional information about you? Joanne Weaver Yeah, so our company website is horrendously old, so apologies in advance for hurting your eyeballs. We're in the process of a redesign right now, but, as you know, take a long time, but the website is joanneweavergroup.com if you want to catch some Design: Unfiltered talks, which is the live stream that I do with two other UX design recruiters, Jared Tredly and Erica Fortgang. We do that every other Wednesday at 1pm ET. We actually just had one a couple of days ago, so it'll be in two weeks. You can go on LinkedIn and search for #designunfiltered, and you can also LinkedIn with me, anybody out there listening, you know, if you're in my industry, or even if you're not, you just want to connect and you liked this podcast, you can LinkedIn with me. You have to use my email, which is joanne@joanneweavergroup.com. You know, if you're looking for a job within UX, product design, product management, research, or content design, you can also send me your materials there as well. And then on Spotify, you can search for Joanne Weaver or Broanne. Skipper Chong Warson Nice, yeah. Well, thank you, Joanne. I really appreciate your time and attention today. This conversation has been I've learned so much just from the hour or so that we've been recording. So thank you. Joanne Weaver Oh, my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. It was so fun. Skipper Chong Warson And thank you for listening to the How This Works show. We appreciate your support and would love it if you'd subscribe and leave a review wherever you get your podcasts. We're in our second season, and it would mean a lot if you could share the show with just one other person, highlighting why they should listen. You can find us online at howthisworks.show, that's four words with no dashes. Again, that's howthisworks.show. We're also active on various social media platforms. I hope you gained some valuable insights from today's conversation with Joanne. I certainly did, and we'll talk again soon. [Outro music] Joanne Weaver So I was working with a coach, and a lot of the things we were working on was, how do I incorporate my creative life with my professional life and really have a holistic whole? And so I took a little bit of a risk, and I posted a photo of myself from a prohibition party night that I had done. So I was singing up here upstate at this Prohibition Party. So all the music we had chosen was like 1920 to 1933 like it was this is really fun. You know, everybody's dressed up like we're all pretending it was really 1933 the repealing prohibition. And so I have this great photo of me in this 20s flapper outfit, of this, you know, like cigarette holder with my friend Michael. And so I posted it on LinkedIn, like, Hey everybody, here's my other, you know, not so secret life. And it got a lot of great feedback. And like way more likes than what I post a job description, so it's like, the human element, right? It's like, oh, I'm curious about, like, what makes you. Skipper Chong Warson Yeah. Joanne Weaver Which is really interesting, because that's, that's something that I coach people that we represent a lot, like, hey, like, let your individuality shine. Like, let people know who you are. So I'm still working on it, it's still a work in progress. But I think there's no way that I can separate my creative self from my professional self, just because so much of you know what we do is in the creative field. So I think being a creative person allows me to connect to creative people just easier. Gives me a little bit of social proof like, hey, I get it. I understand how vulnerable and how raw being a designer or an artist can be. And so it's it just creates much richer conversations and a deeper connection. Skipper Chong Warson Yeah, that's a great story, and it's a good reminder that behind every job we are whole people, right? There's a work life, and then there's also the home life. And so there are many things that we do. Sometimes they support each other, and sometimes they're so opposite. So I think that's a really excellent reminder.