Poetry for All

Transcript for Episode 11: Alberto R’os

Joanne: 	

Hello, IÕm Joanne Diaz, an English professor at Illinois Wesleyan University.

Abram: 	

And IÕm Abram Van Engen, an English professor at Washington University in St. Louis.Ê

Joanne:	

And this is Poetry For All.Ê

Abram:		

This podcast is for those who already love poetry and for those who know very little about it.Ê

Joanne:	

In this podcast, weÕll read a poem, discuss it, learn from it, and then read it one more time.Ê

Abram:		

Today, weÕre reading a poem by Alberto R’os called ÒWhen Giving Is All We Have.Ó

Joanne:	

Alberto R’os is the author of many poetry collections and the Inaugural State Poet Laureate of Arizona. He has received the Walt Whitman Award and fellowships from the Guggenheim Foundation and the National Endowment for the Arts. He served as chancellor of the American Academy of Poets from 2014-2020.Ê

Abram:		

And before we read the poem, I think itÕs worth reading what Alberto R’os has to say about this poem. He says, Òthis is a poem of thanks to those who live lives of service, which I think includes all of us. From the largest measure to the smallest gesture, from caregiving to volunteerism, to being an audience member or a reader, I have been able to offer these words to many groups. Not only as a poem, but also as a recognition. We give for so many reasons and are bettered by it. Joanne, would you read this poem for us?

Joanne:	

Absolutely. 

[please see ÒWhen Giving Is All We HaveÓ on the Academy of American Poets website: https://poets.org/poem/when-giving-all-we-have]

Abram:		

ThatÕs beautiful.Ê

Joanne:	

I know, I love this poem, I love how the first time you read it or hear it, the language feels accessible. It feels like each sentence is approachable and itÕs open to anyone who wants to listen. It doesnÕt feel like itÕs saying something thatÕs impossible for me to understand the first time and yet the longer I sit with it, the more complex it becomes. Do you feel that way too?

Abram:		

Yeah, absolutely. And maybe one way to break down the kind of movements of this poem in order to get into those layers that it has is just to think about the basic structure. ItÕs made up of couplets all the way through until the very end, the last line stands by itself. And we can come back to that ending in just a moment. But itÕs also a poem that basically has three movements to it. So the first three couplets are about why we give, the middle of this poem is kind of definitional, itÕs about what giving really is, and then the end of this poem is more about the results of giving or the consequences of giving, what comes out of it? When you think about the structure of this poem as well, I know you and I were talking about this poem before and you said you saw a sort of inverted triangle as well in this poem, so could you say a bit more about that?

Joanne:	

If you notice the first half of the poem, the poetic speaker is talking about a Òwe,Ó a collective voice. We give because someone gave to us. We give because nobody gave to us. So those first several lines begin with ÒweÓ and end with Òus.Ó And as it goes down the page, Òwe, we.Ó And then it starts to narrow its focus from these broad observations and meditations on what we do collectively with giving, and then it narrows in at about line 13 with this sentence that really interests me: ÒGiving is, first and every time, hand to hand, Mine to yours, yours to mine.Ó So it starts off real big and then as the poem narrows in on this ÒI,Ó ÒyouÓ relationship it really heats up and it really helps me think about giving as a very unique kind of transaction.Ó

Abram:		

Yeah, and itÕs particular, too. ItÕs ÒyouÓ and ÒmeÓ and itÕs Òhand to hand.Ó ThereÕs one of those images that comes to mind thatÕs very personal. ThereÕs a reason why he is going through all the variables of giving. ÒWe give because someone gave to us, we give because nobody gave to us.Ó And so heÕs laying out all these broad statements at the beginning which then in the end is gonna come down to this particular hand and that particular hand. This hand gives to that hand.Ê

Joanne:	

I love what youÕre saying because as I hear you read those lines I start to think about the nuances about what Alberto R’os is setting up. SoÊÒWe give because someone gave to us,Ó that sets up a kind of cause-effect thing. If IÕve been given to in the past, that makes me want to give to someone else. But the next line says: ÒWe give because nobody gave to us.Ó I have to say, I think of my father every time I read that line because he was someone who grew up with nothing and very little was given to him, but heÕs the most generous person I know, and he will give to anybody who asks for help. And he is very aware that it is precisely because he was given so little that he wants to give so much. And so I feel like that second line of the poem, Òwe give because nobody gave to us,Ó I feel like that is a very accurate line.Ê

Abram:		

WhatÕs noticeable to me too is that he is, in a certain sense, itÕs a capacious poem. So just as you can find your father there in the second line, I think so many people can find someone they know in this particular line of this poem,Ê

Joanne: 	

Yeah.

Abram:		

ÒWe give because giving has changed us,Ó and someone will come to mind. ÒWe give because giving could have changed us.Ó We have been better for it, we have been wounded by it. So in a certain sense, heÕs bringing together all these ways and persons and means and moments of giving to try to be as capacious as possible there at the beginning.Ê

Joanne:	

And then, what you say is all true, and then he narrows in on a couple of really key, vivid, specific images that feel initially quite strange, but then are kind of magnificent. So for example, I love this sentence, ÒGiving has many faces: It is loud and quiet, Big, though small, diamond in wood-nails.Ó IÕve never heard such a thing before!

Abram:		

[Laughs] Yeah.Ê

Joanne: 	

ItÕs wonderful and I just donÕt know what that could even mean, what does that mean?

Abram: 	

Yeah, so this also threw me for a loop, I didnÕt know Òdiamond in wood-nails,Ó I sort of thought what is that exactly? But happily, I have a friend who is a woodworker and an artist and so I wrote him saying what comes to mind when you see this line? And I just thought IÕd read this back to you because I think itÕs beautiful. This is from John Sarra, he says, ÒI suspect that it refers to old-cut nails which are squarish. Once driven in, the head has a sort of diamond shape and itÕs often brightened by the impact of the hammer. Other types of nails have more purposefully diamond-like or faceted heads as a decorative or defensive element, as with old door construction. So I think the poet was looking beyond the function of a nail as a fastener and towards its aesthetic impact. That part which is so often present and ignored, to reinvest it with a surprise of meaning and beauty.Ó You know, what stands out to me in that description is that these diamond heads on the nails are more than utilitarian. They go beyond the simply rational or the simply necessary or the simply practical. And I think thatÕs getting at all of these transactions of giving, theyÕre more than utilitarian, theyÕre more than practical, something is in excess of the transaction itself.

Joanne: 	

Oh, that helps me understand then why that image is there because it sounds like a couple of things are happening. That weÕre going beyond the utility or the need of giving and I love what your friend said about how the nail is often brightened by the impact of the hammer. It makes me think about the labor and the thought and care that go into gift giving, sometimes the labor that weÕll never see. Very beautiful.Ê

Abram:		

Yeah, and thereÕs not that many images in this poem. So this one stands out because thereÕs basically this image, the image in the next couplet is of an old book that is read and reread and reread, and that third image of two hands, one hand to this hand. Other than that, thereÕs not that many concrete images in this poem, itÕs really a poem more about the statements itself and how they move from beginning to end.

Joanne: 	

It is, and even as I hear you say that, I go back to that line that we just talked about a few minutes ago, that hand to hand line. ÒGiving is, first and every time, hand to hand, Mine to yours, yours to mine. You gave me blue and I gave you yellow. Together we are simple green.Ó I donÕt know if I would be able to access those lines in the same way as I do now that I hear you read what Alberto R’os says about this poem. That the people who give in this poem, they could be service workers, they could be volunteers, they could be members of an audience, they could be readers, listeners, writers, so it helps me think about the transaction that occurs between a poet or artist and the audience and how something new is created by virtue of the audience just listening and being present. And I think thatÕs kind of awesome.Ê

Abram:		

WhatÕs great to me about that is we give what we have to give. Poets have words to give, an audience has attention to give, but each of us has a certain thing to give and we also give beyond what we have to give. So that just flows nicely into the end, where it says ÒYou gave me / What you did not have, and I gave you / What I had to giveÑtogether, we made / Something greater from the difference.Ó And the authorÕs intention in a poem and the readerÕs perception of a poem are never going to be exactly the same. ThereÕs a difference between the two. And yet something greater is created out of that difference, out of what the author is trying to convey, what a reader is perceiving. The gap there is actually a space for creativity, for something new to come into being. So together we made something greater from the difference. On the one hand, that can just refer to reading and writing and the processes of poetry itself, but of course it goes way beyond that as well, to all these acts of giving and receiving.Ê

Joanne:	

You know, I only met Alberto R’os once many years ago at the Bread Loaf Writers Conference, and I saw him give a craft workshop and a poetry reading. So I had the opportunity to see him not just share his wonderful poems, but also to share his pedagogical expertise and it interests me how much teaching is like sharing as a poet, right? Because when he was in that craft workshop, the energy he created and shared with us as students, it was like the knowledge sort of hung in the air between and among all of us and itÕs very helpful to kind of think about that as a kind of gift as well. And it seems like thatÕs something thatÕs very much a part of his sensibility, which I respect and appreciate a lot.Ê

Abram:		

And I think, too, when I read those last lines, ÒYou gave me / What you did not have,Ó these are kind of hard lines. Hard in two senses: hard to figure out exactly what heÕs saying, but also hard in the sense that giving is not always an easy thing, itÕs not always a cheerful thing. As we were talking about before, it can be laborious, it can be difficult, it can be painful. ÒYou gave me / What you did not have, and I gave you / What I had to give.Ó When I read that, what occurs to me is a sort of scriptural background. And IÕm gonna read this from Luke 21 because I feel like this helps me make sense of those lines. So this is called ÒThe WidowÕs Offering:Ó ÒJesus looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the offering box. He also saw a poor widow put in two small copper coins. He said, ÒI tell you the truth, this poor widow has put in more than all of them. For they all offered gifts out of her wealth, but she, out of her poverty, put in everything she had to live on.ÕÓ And I feel like that is the sort of ethos behind this poem: we give everything. We give even when we need it. We donÕt just give out of abundance, we give beyond our abundance, we give out of our essentials, we give everything we have to live on. So heÕs noticing that happening all around him. ThatÕs this sort of gift economy that doesnÕt make any sense. At the end there, heÕs sort of saying zero plus zero equals something in the end.

Joanne:	

Yes!

Abram: 	

You gave what you didnÕt have to give, you gave beyond what you had to give. I gave whatever I had to give and together, something new, something greater came out of the difference.Ê

Joanne:	

Mmmm, thatÕs great. With all of this in mind, IÕd love to hear the poem again, Abram.

Abram: 	

Absolutely. [Please read ÒWhen Giving Is All We HaveÓ on the Academy of American Poets website: https://poets.org/poem/when-giving-all-we-have]

Joanne:	

So good, thank you. Beautiful poem. Thank you to Copper Canyon Press for granting us permission to read this poem, which appears in _A Small Story About the Sky_ by Alberto R’os.

Abram: 	

Thank you for listening, and please remember to follow us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram.