Poetry for All

Transcript for Episode 13: Amanda Gorman

Joanne:Ê

Hello, IÕm Joanne Diaz.

Abram:

And IÕm Abram Van Engen.

Joanne:

And this is Poetry for All.

Abram:Ê

In this podcast we read a poem, discuss it, learn from it, and then read it one more time.Ê

Joanne:

Today we are so excited to talk about a poem that everyoneÕs excited about! Amanda GormanÕs ÒThe Hill We Climb.Ó Amanda Gorman was born in Los Angeles and graduated from Harvard University just last year, sheÕs 22 years old, she was the first ever National Youth Poet Laureate and she has set the world on fire with the poem that she recited at the inauguration of President Joe Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris. She read her poem so beautifully and so convincingly that thereÕs no way that either I or Abram could ever do justice to her poem by reading it here.

Abram:Ê

[Laughs]

Joanne:

[Laughs] IÕm just going to be honest! And thankfully everyone all over the world recorded it and has shared it on social media and on every news outlet, so you can find it online. But we do want to talk about the poem because it achieves so many things so beautifully.Ê

Abram:

This poem was so successful, I mean itÕs been viewed hundreds of thousands of times on YouTube, millions of people watched her when she did it, I mean this is like the poem of the day, right? How did it work, why did it work so well? How did she successfully blend an art of poetry with social engagement for an occasion?

Joanne:

I have so many feelings and thoughts about this, IÕve been thinking about it nonstop since she read the poem to the world. Two quick thoughts in response to your question: the first one is the very famous Wallace Stevens line, Òthe poem is the cry of its occasion.Ó ÒThe poem is the cry of its occasion.Ó ThatÕs a very interesting way of thinking about how and why great poems work. If thatÕs true, I think thatÕs whatÕs working here with Amanda GormanÕs poem. She so clearly understood what the occasion demanded. She so clearly understood her audience as fractured, fatigued, in pain, suffering, grieving, and she spoke to that. This is not merely an adulatory poem. This is not a poem of patriotic jingoism. This is not a poem that is only focusing on the good of America. This is a poem that starts with the never-ending shade. This is the poem that asks Òwhere can we find light in the darkness?Ó And so she is willing to confront that pain that we are feeling as a nation and then push on that, and this is my second point, this is a poem that engages us. So I teach a class called ÒThe Poetics of Engagement.Ó And I donÕt call it ÒPolitical Poetry,Ó I call it ÒThe Poetics of Engagement.Ó These are poems where the poet is socially aware, historically aware, politically aware, and the reason I use the word ÒengagementÓ is because that word comes from the French Òengager,Ó which means to promise, to make a contract, bind. So thereÕs a way in which Amanda Gorman, in multiple rhetorical moves in this poem, is demanding something of us. Asking that we engage in a pact, in a bond, in a promise. By the end of the poem, sheÕs done something so rhetorically moving that you feel like saying, ÒYes! Yes, I will answer the call!Ó

Abram:

Yeah.Ê

Joanne:

ÒWe can do this!ÓÊ

Abram:Ê

And itÕs very much a call. I want to think about that just a little bit longer because a call is a voice, itÕs vocal, itÕs oral, itÕs not just written down. And this was very much a performed poem, a poem that calls for a performance of it. You said Òthe poem is the cry of its occasion,Ó Wallace StevensÕ line, but so many occasions call out for poetry. You know, even folks who donÕt tend to read poems, donÕt tend to buy a book of poetry will nonetheless find themselves looking for lines of verse for the right occasion. For a wedding, for a funeral, for an inauguration.Ê

Joanne:

Yes.

Abram:Ê

And so so often occasions call for verse. And verse is vocal. Poetry is as old as the human voice and itÕs everywhere you look and I think itÕs the speaking of this poem that really brings it to life.

Joanne:Ê

And not only spoken, but itÕs an embodied performance. Amanda GormanÕs voice is beautiful, her facial expressions are so engaging, her hand gestures, her --Ê just the way that she moves with her audience, itÕs just fantastic. You and I were talking earlier about that ring that sheÕs wearing, right? ItÕs a ring that Oprah gave her--my God, sheÕs friends with Oprah--

Abram:

[Laughs]

Joanne: 

...sheÕs friends with Lin-Manuel Miranda, I mean this woman -- anyway, Oprah gave this very symbolic ring to Amanda Gorman as a gift because, of course, it cites the great memoir by Maya Angelou, _I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings._ ItÕs a ring with a bird in a little cage, so even the performance of wearing that ring -- in doing so sheÕs citing her debt to poets like Maya Angelou and remembering her performance decades ago in 1993 at Bill ClintonÕs inauguration. You know, you canÕt possibly capture all of that on the page.Ê

Abram:

Yeah, and itÕs allusive all the way through. ItÕs drawing on American traditions and it does so from the very beginning. WeÕre not going to talk through every line of this poem. ItÕs a fairly long poem, but itÕs worth talking through some of the lines and some of the words that really draw out these traditions that sheÕs engaged with. Beginning with the title itself, ÒThe Hill We Climb,Ó thereÕs some famous hills in American history, in the American tradition [Laughs].

Joanne:

[Laughs] And you know quite a bit about them, as it turns out! [Laughs]

Abram:

[Laughs] Yes, IÕve written a little bit about this Òcity-on-a-hillÓ business that often come up in American history. And the Òcity on a hillÓ is a phrase that is often cited to go back to John Winthrop, the first Puritan governor of Massachusetts Bay. Reagan cites him and turns it into this rhetoric of the shining city on a hill that is the United States of America. But whatÕs interesting is that for Winthrop, that hill was always conditional. So in that original ceremony from 1630 he says Òwe shall be as a city upon a hill,Ó but what heÕs pointing out is that people are looking at us and we might fail. So he immediately goes on to say that Òthe eyes of the people are upon us and if we fail we shall be a byword to the nations.Ó In other words, this could go really badly. [Laughs]

Joanne:

[Knowingly] Wow. Wow!

Abram:

So itÕs this incredible conditional, heÕs poised right between hope, the creative kind of model of Christian community, and fear, that theyÕre really going to fail and it will be talked about everywhere.Ê

Joanne:

Wow, so if thatÕs the part of the Òcity-on-the-hillÓ sermon that maybe we donÕt always focus on, how risky this enterprise is, right?

Abram:Ê

Yes, and what happens is that by the time that phrase becomes like a slogan for the United States, which doesnÕt really happen until the Cold War, the phrase starts to become this sort of static sense that the United States has already achieved something and simply needs to maintain it. So when you get a title like ÒThe Hill We Climb,Ó suddenly the hill is back in front of us again.Ê

Joanne:

[Knowingly] Yeah!

Abram:

So itÕs not something where we are trying to maintain our status on top of the hill. Instead, American history becomes this thing that is ever moving forward, that thereÕs always more hill to climb, that thereÕs a higher place to get to than weÕve gotten to yet, and that we canÕt be going back because going back is going down.Ê

Joanne:

Wow! And thatÕs really interesting too because when I think of the city on the hill, it doesnÕt seem like itÕs always been entirely welcome to everybody. So for Amanda Gorman to title this poem ÒThe Hill We Climb,Ó that ÒweÓ is at the front of this poem, in the title, and in almost every line of the poem, itÕs Òwe.Ó SheÕs being inclusive, sheÕs inviting everyone into this climbing, into this striving, into this forging of a democracy that we can really feel proud of.Ê

Abram:Ê

That ÒweÓ you mention carries right in to the first line of the poem, which is a question that sets up the rest of the poem and that question really finds its answer in the last sentence of the poem. So when we think about the structure of this poem, it does have this very coherent structure: it asks a question in the first sentence and it answers the question in the last sentence and everything else in between is how we get from that question to that answer. HereÕs the question: ÒWhen day comes we ask ourselves Ôwhere can we find light in this everlasting shade.ÕÓ And that last word ÒshadeÓ is really interesting because what sheÕs going to  do then with that word is play on that sound, Òshade,Ó and draw it all the way through the poem until we get to the end where we have Òbrave.Ó So here are some words that play off of that sound as we move through the poem: Òshade, wade, braved, slaves, raised, gazes, afraid, blade, made, glade, raise, a flame, shadeÓ again, Òunafraid,Ó and the last two lines ÒbraveÓ and Òbrave.Ó So sheÕs very much, all throughout this poem, playing off the sounds of words to get to the sense of words.Ê

Joanne:

Regularly, throughout the poem, sheÕs using sound to forge relationships between seemingly oppositional things, right. ÒEven as we hurt, we hoped,Ó right, thatÕs one example. ÒOur people, diverse and beautiful, will emerge, battered and beautiful.Ó ThereÕs one line that goes from ÒwoundedÓ to Òwondrous.Ó She does this again and again throughout the poem and what I think sheÕs trying to suggest is that we canÕt be wondrous or beautiful or restored in any way until we are honest about what has happened to us as a nation. Until we are honest about the fact that we are in grief, we are tired, that we are broken, all of that. So that confrontation and honesty about the damage that has been done to our nation is central to any effort we make to repair it.

Again, I love how frequently she embraces imperfection, yeah? And yes, we are far from polished, far from pristine, but that doesnÕt mean we are striving to form a union that is perfect. There she is quoting the Constitution of course, The Constitution says very clearly Òwe are striving to form a more perfect union,Ó not a perfect union, more perfect. ThereÕs an admission in the Constitution that perfection is like that X - Y axis from math class in high school. WeÕre approaching that axis but weÕll never get there and sheÕs reminding us: perfection is not the goal. ÒThe goal is to strive to forge a Union with purpose,Ó she says. What I love there is the verb Òforge,Ó too. Forging is difficult labor, it wears you out, itÕs constant work, but thatÕs the work of democracy, right? ItÕs not a passive thing that you inherit, you must work at it.Ê

Abram:

Yes. ÒOur eyes are on the future and history has its eyes on us.Ó

Joanne:

SheÕs such a poet of her moment, of course thatÕs a not-so-subtle citation of _Hamilton,_ right?

Abram:

Yes! ThereÕs a subtle moment where she actually cites Hamilton by way of scripture. And I think itÕs worth following this out, because she says, Òscripture tells us to envision that everyone shall sit under their own vine and fig tree and no one shall make them afraid.Ó And on the one hand of course, thatÕs a citation of Mikah 4:4, but itÕs also a particular line of scripture that George Washington loved. And Lin-Manuel Miranda built it into _Hamilton,_ so when Washington sings about that particular line of scripture, itÕs the moment when Washington chooses on his own, peacefully, to leave power in the hands of somebody else!

Joanne:

[Laughing] Imagine that!

Abram:

This is not an accident that she is drawing on these particular lines because Washington set this incredibly powerful example of walking away from power that he could have had. I mean he was head of the army. People wanted to crown him king. You could not imagine a more powerful person at that particular time and what Washington did in that moment was to say ÒIÕm going home to become a private citizen, power is passing to someone else.Ó And these are the words from _Hamilton_: ÒIf I say goodbye, the nation learns to move on. It outlives me when IÕm gone. Like scripture says, Ôeveryone shall sit under their own vine and fig tree and no one shall make them afraid,Õ theyÕll be safe in the nation weÕve made. I want to sit under my own vine and fig tree a moment alone in the shade at home in this nation weÕve made one last time.Ó So she is drawing on scripture but itÕs scripture filtered through _Hamilton_ to make the point that the most powerful example of Washington was when he walked peacefully away.Ê

Joanne:

Yes. And this is a very clear signal to her readers and viewers that she is citing what led up to January 6th, 2021 and the date itself. I mean look at this passage, itÕs very very clear, ÒweÕve seen a force that will shatter our nation rather than share it, would destroy our country if it meant delaying democracy and this effort very nearly succeeded. But while democracy can be periodically delayed, it can never be permanently defeated.Ó Wow! And sheÕs said in interviews that of course she was working tirelessly on this poem and she thought she had the shape of it and then January 6th happened. And sheÕs very clearly signaling with her allusions to _Hamilton_ and George Washington, that no, that shattering is simply not possible, it cannot be defeated, no way.Ê

Abram:

Mm-hmm. And yet, even as she says that with such declarative affirmation, that we are better than this and we have defeated the forces that would defeat us. She moves on to these really powerful affirmations and ends on a conditional. So I think we should move towards the ending of this poem because I think itÕs really powerful how she does that. So as weÕre moving toward the end of this poem, again with another tip of the hat to Maya Angelou, she says Òwe will rise, we will rise, we will rise, we will rise,Ó four times. And that repetition is pulling on all kinds of traditions. Not just Maya Angelou, but a kind of Black prophetic preaching tradition, and oftentimes these kinds of amplifications, these repetitions occurred near the end of the sermon. And here weÕre coming to the end of the poem and Òwe will rise, we will rise, we will rise, we will rise.Ó ItÕs almost as though the poem has ended. We have this confirmation, this assurance that Òwe will rise,Ó and then the last two lines pull back from that assurance and end on an Òif,Ó on a conditional.Ê

Joanne:

Yes, I didnÕt realize this until you said it, you observed before we started the podcast that the poem could have ended on this line: Òwe will rebuild, reconcile, and recover, and every known nook of our nation in every corner called our country, our people diverse and beautiful will emerge battered and beautiful.Ó I love that you noted how the poem could have ended there. And if it had, I would have been delightedÉ

Abram:

Mm-hmm! [Laughs]

Joanne:Ê

...yes, yes, I am with you Amanda Gorman! But it doesnÕt end there. She pushes on it in a way that makes me a little anxious. ItÕs interesting. Look at the last six lines of the poem:Ê

ÒWhen day comes we step out of the shade,
aflame and unafraid,
the new dawn blooms as we free it.
For there is always light,
if only we're brave enough to see it.
If only we're brave enough to be it.Ó

Now why does that interest you?

Abram:

One of the things I think itÕs worth pointing out to our listeners is that a legitimate question for any poem, especially one that doesnÕt have a set form that itÕs conforming to is Òwhy does it go on? Why doesnÕt it stop here? Why does it feel compelled to add these lines or this stanza or this next thing?Ó And thatÕs a way of understanding how a poem turns and twists on itself and here, I feel like the end of the poem, first of all, itÕs referencing the Star Spangled Banner, Òthe land of the free and the home of the brave,Ó but, because itÕs a conditional, itÕs a call to action. And that line, Òthe new dawn blooms as we free it,Ó is the answer to the opening question, but whatÕs interesting is that the day doesnÕt just come on its own. We donÕt just sit around and suddenly the light shines upon us. It only comes if we free it. The only way to get out of the never-ending shade is to do it yourself, Òto see it and to be it.Ó So it is this incredible conditional call to action. There is hope, but it could all fall apart.Ê

Joanne:

Oh my God. No, we canÕt let it fall apart, the poem is too good!

Abram:Ê

[Laughing] Yeah!

Joanne:

We have to save the Republic for the sake of the poem! [Laughs]

Abram:

ThereÕs so much more that could be said about this poem and about the sounds, how itÕs working. But mostly I just wanted to have a podcast where we have a chance to just point out the fact that poetry is all around us, that it is there for the occasion and that when it comes through on the occasion it is moving to so many different kinds of people, people who never read poetry themselves watched that poem and were moved by it.Ê

Joanne:Ê

ThatÕs wonderful, very beautifully put. Well, as we said, we hope that youÕll watch the video of Amanda Gorman reading this poem again and again, itÕs wonderful. You know, you can find it everywhere, we donÕt need to tell you that. WeÕll provide some more information on the Poetry for All website at poetryforall.fireside.fm.Ê

Abram:

And please do remember to follow us on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.Ê

Joanne:Ê

Thank you for listening!