Martin Feld  0:09  
Hello, and welcome to loungeroom inator. I'm your host Martin felt great to have you on this week. Today is a very special episode. It's a bit of an experiment of online friends from the site Microdot blog. So I'm joined by the fantastic Andrew Canion and also equally fantastic. Jason Burke. How are you both today?

Andrew Canion  0:29  
Excellent. Really good. This is Andrew. And this is so cool. something we've been trying to get together for quite some time. And we're actually here with defying all the international timeline challenges that we

Jason Burk  0:43  
absolutely yeah. And the time could not be more perfect at 6am in the morning.

Martin Feld  0:48  
Yeah, I'm really grateful that you got up and I felt bad because I was causing difficulties before we even got here and look, just to give some context the listeners at home. Andrew, Jason and I we all met On Microdot blog, which is a fantastic How would you sort of put it that it's sort of a social networking blog microblogging site? And it's sort of what an alternative to Twitter would you say these days?

Andrew Canion  1:12  
Yeah, it's it's almost time to Twitter and WordPress and Facebook and Instagram even and you can host a podcast there. It does a bit of everything. Jason you're pretty you

Jason Burk  1:26  
Yeah, I would say it's, it's it used to only be what I thought was a alternative to Twitter. But over time, things just keep getting added and it's becoming kind of a central I mean, I hate to say it, but almost an AOL where you kind of are starting to get a lot of different things in one place, which generally is scary because you start getting too many things. It just gets overwhelming. But so far everything has seemed to work out with with Microdot blog in terms of what it's able to do and what it's able to offer. It's not forever One yet, I still think that it's takes a special kind of person to to jump in and be able to take on some of the difficulties and challenges with something like Microdot blog. But overall, I could not be happier with with what it's brought to me personally. Like you were just saying how we we met through that service, which sounds weird still to say, but

Andrew Canion  2:27  
I can say that Jason when I first joined up, I don't know if you remember this, but you posted me in snail mail like some Microdot blog stickers. And it was just amazing. I was like, What on earth? This is amazing. What a friendly, friendly place. And I stand by the fact that it is the friendliest place on the internet. And you keep waiting for like, yeah, this is just a facade, you know, because surely, the internet's a horrible cesspit. We all know that wins the winner, the real people going to show up, but now it's just nice.

Martin Feld  2:58  
Yeah, and you're right about a big Friendly Because ultimately, it's what has led to this today. So for the listeners at home a bit of context here, we've been chatting together for some time on Microdot blog, and it really is friendly, it is free of, I suppose likes follow accounts and so on. And so it really breeds this environment of well, if you want to interact with people, you have to respond to them. Andrew and Jason YouTube, really a people who've been very active and very kind and responding to me. So I suppose this is really the audio experiment version for that, you know, that extended communication?

Jason Burk  3:34  
Yeah, I really appreciate the fact that it's not just click a button. At first it was a little off putting, do all this work of typing words, Oh, gosh. But at the end of the day, it it really if you care, you will write something versus just clicking something because, you know, clicking a thumb or a star, whatever, doesn't really mean anything. But if even if you just write two words back Somebody, the amount that that person gets from that is just exponentially higher.

Andrew Canion  4:04  
I agree. It's, it's, it's, it's really great. And the people behind it really care, like it's a small business essentially owned and operated by a guy who I think are sick of the social media world as it was. And he's really passionate about it. And it's working hard. So, of course, you have to pay, there is a free element that you can feed into it. But to get all the hosting stuff, you do have to give money. And I think as soon as money changes hands, it changes the premise

Jason Burk  4:33  
your intent on wire there. I mean, if you can just put in a name and a crappy password, and now you have an account, what's your commitment to that? Whereas if you're putting three, four or $5 on the line, that means you're actually there on purpose?

Martin Feld  4:48  
Yeah, you're not so much the product you are actually using a product that you intend to pay for. And I mean, there are questions about access and stuff and whether it might be discourages people from signing up, but really, I mean, we're gonna Atlas, it leads to an environment where as you say, there's an intention to actually interact with people not just give up like some, you know, button presses that lead to data just somewhere for someone else. That's what sort of brought us together. And I suppose I mean, Andrew, I've had you on the show before, we discussed a lot about, I think you called it your potted computing history. And that was a lot of fun. So what what would you both like to sort of kick off discussing today? I mean, it's that general interest that we share in technology that's brought us here, I suppose.

Andrew Canion  5:30  
I think I think it has. Yeah, I remember, on our podcast, we talked all sorts of computer stuff. And then I think Jason you chimed in on microblog, we're talking about it. And we thought, we've we've all got this same interest in background and we're really all a bunch of math nerds at the heart of it all out way. And so what the world needs what the world needs is another podcast with three dudes talking about computers. I don't

Martin Feld  5:55  
think there is one. I mean, it's really, this must be really unique that I can't think of any tech podcasts. have three white males talking about computers? I don't think it exists.

Andrew Canion  6:04  
No, no, no, no new grass wood cutting new ground.

Jason Burk  6:07  
We could talk about Windows somehow. I don't know. I don't know where I would do that but we could try.

Martin Feld  6:15  
I felt a bit it was good if you really want to

Andrew Canion  6:16  
have to go get my get my time. My shirt and tie on we can talk windows. Man, let's not do that. I think I want to ask about because the first thing on the list here is Bo s I really got to find out about other people did other people you guys actually know about Bo s that was mentioned in the podcast with Martin. I still have the book that's probably about five inches thick.

Jason Burk  6:42  
And the CDs with BLS whatever version on it, and I tried so hard. He I mean, who knows this was years and years and years ago, I tried so hard to make that my operating system. This was back when I used windows way, way, way back in the day when they're really wasn't anything else. I mean, yes, there's Linux there's always been Linux but POS was like, it's I guess it was what Mac OS I in my head when I thought computers should be. This was before I was on Mac OS. So POS was like, Oh, this is it's beautiful. It's well, it's well laid out everything about it just as it's enjoyable to use. And it never went anywhere. So fortunately, I found Mac OS and everything was good from there on out. But Oh, God, I wanted that to work so bad. It reminds me absolutely of webOS OS, which was from palm. I was a diehard web OS fan user. I made it I that was the first app I ever wrote was for web OS. I truly thought like, this is the future apps that are written in web code. Everything's web. Oh, it's so exciting. And honestly the hardware, awesome. Everything about it was great. The software I thought was fantastic. as well, but again, just no wrong place wrong time or what but it kind of was BLS all over again.

Martin Feld  8:07  
So for people who are listening who have no familiarity with either of those, what were the things about BLS? And Weber was at the time that were so different, or that motivated you or made you think this is the future?

Jason Burk  8:20  
The, I mean, mostly user interface. I don't think at the time anyone really knew or cared about what was under the hood. I mean, kinda like today, I don't think anybody truly cares. Well, I mean, some people do, but you know, how much memory you have or what harddrive who cares, right? It's like, what am I actually interacting with as a person? What am I touching, and bpos. It was from the installation to the startup to just the interaction with the UI. It felt like you weren't using a computer in the traditional sense of a you know, big iron computer of sitting at the command line and banging away at the keyboard. It was more of a enjoyable experience. of getting things accomplished. And the same for web iOS where everything was very whimsical and fun, and you wanted to use it you know, this was well before you know everybody was addicted to cell phones and when we can't put them down now, this was all still very new. So it made you want to pick it up and interact with it. Even down to things like the hardware where you would this was when it wireless charging back before that was even really a thing and it would just magnet nicely to the dock and it just everything felt so good compared to what was out there. You know, using a palm Treo, which was weighed four pounds and had a giant keyboard on a stylus with a pen. You had a jab at the screen. This was just nice and fluid.

Andrew Canion  9:41  
Wow. I don't think we ever really got the Weibo. So over here in Australia very much I remember reading about it a little bit. I don't know if ever even really made it to market over over here.

Jason Burk  9:52  
Probably not. I mean, as most things come out of Silicon Valley and they're very popular there. And then remains to be seen if they make it anywhere else.

Martin Feld  10:02  
Yeah, it's funny some things take off earlier in Australia through experimentation. Like I think Australia, New Zealand, and we have the claim to fame from a cafe. So Australians are very quick to jump on McDonald's coffee, but now we don't get the cool operating systems that that's unfortunate.

Jason Burk  10:17  
But you guys get the first iPhones to I think, right, isn't it? The very first one usually opens there, I think.

Andrew Canion  10:23  
Yeah, I think might be New Zealand, New Zealand, get it first a little bit further away than we are.

Martin Feld  10:29  
I think they just bait us. That's right. I mean, Australia, New Zealand, when we're sort of early adopters with some things. I think we've reached what 99% Apple Pay penetration because we have lower bank competition and they're out tap well, because basically, there are four big banks in Australia, they shall not be named because they just went through a royal commission, excuse me. And that just meant that they rolled out wireless payment terminals everywhere. So they just flick a switch and essentially, apple pies everywhere. So we might have missed out on earlier things. But there are some things that make us a tech utopia. Suppose Is that right, Andrew?

Andrew Canion  11:02  
Yeah, literally, I haven't used cash. I mean, especially with covert doubt, you know, people sort of look at caches that you don't use that because it's dirty. But really, I had a $20 note sitting in my wallet for probably two months, it was tapping, go with everything. You know, bought a coffee today, buy a coffee, tap and go buy a parking ticket for parking meter tapping go. It's all it's everywhere.

Jason Burk  11:28  
Yeah, it's sort of jarring to not have it. I think I've been using Apple Pay for it consistently for five years and like you, I have a $20 note occasionally in my wallet, and it's exclusively for haircuts. Because where I go, they won't accept a card payment, and it's just this every four weeks, I know that I'm going to have to pull some grimy rectangle out of my wallet. Apple Pay is one of the most over, not overlooked, but just I guess assumed to be there. So it's not exciting, but that service has that is actually a life changing service. If you ask me, I mean, it's very basic, it's very maybe it's just not exciting. But wow when when Apple Pay happens, I will specifically search out places to use Apple Pay, I will shop at other places because of Apple Pay. And that is just huge that you could never say that about a, you know, every company has their own little, you know, card for loyalty and all that. I would never switch stores because their loyalty card was better. But if they don't have Apple Pay, and their competitor does, I'm gone. That is just it's so much better, especially with now tied to the Apple card to it's like 3% back for Apple stuff to be you know, all that whatever it has. It's just so simple. And I think it got a lot of flack when it came out like oh, Apple's doing a credit card, they should be making better computers or whatever. I personally have found it to be absolutely delightful to use that combination.

Andrew Canion  12:55  
And that that's the irony though is that we have all these infrastructure and Got the apple pie, but we don't actually have the apple branded credit card. So everything we have it links back to our national banks we have in Australia, but we don't have an option to get the Apple

Jason Burk  13:15  
product, the apple card to use Apple Pay online to or just dead like terminals.

Andrew Canion  13:21  
Yes. Online.

Martin Feld  13:22  
Yeah, online as well. I totally understand Jason's standpoint about going to places that support Apple Pay because I actually switched banks when it came out to get Apple Pay. I mean, I, I jumped ship to get onto it. So I'm

Andrew Canion  13:36  
totally on board with that I would have if I had to. Luckily, I happen to be with their bank when they launched it,

Jason Burk  13:42  
which is crazy, right? Like, when Has there ever been something that made you want to switch banks or when Has anyone ever cared about what bank they had? This is has to be the first time that that's ever been the case.

Martin Feld  13:54  
It's a really good point. Yeah, shows how transformative it has been and just how I mean a really successful tech Technology affects your behavior and the way that you sort of live your every day. So I totally

Jason Burk  14:06  
agree with you there. The last thing they ever had is a bank was you know, when everybody switched to quote unquote free checking, which you know, just saying the word check feels horrific at this point. So this is this is a pretty big deal.

Andrew Canion  14:20  
Checking Yeah, wow, that's, that's going back in time. That is a is a long and distant past. Thankfully, I remember having to learn how to write checks in high school or whatever it was like this is where you're headed down, you have to write the number. What

Martin Feld  14:36  
now sorry, I sort of derailed us there with with apple pie but I'm glad that we have two huge Apple Pay advocates on here. But I suppose steering back if you want to back to the sort of iOS discussion because we were talking about BRS and webOS. For both of you How did that sort of steer into macro was eventually

Jason Burk  14:53  
for me Mac OS, the very I guess my first I'm trying to think back to exactly when it actually happened, but I do Do fondly remember going into XYZ computer store or whatever it was called back then. And seeing the titanium powerbook next to the sea of other windows laptops that were 17 inches thick and disgusting and seeing this titanium powerbook what and seeing the price of it also in comparison back then was like Okay, why is it so much what does it do? Surely it must do something amazing for that price. And just seeing it and you know, having the hinge opened perfectly and the trackpad and the keyboard felt amazing. That sold me so it was it was hardware first, which makes sense because you're going to see it before you use it. And then using it at first. I mean, honestly it was like, What is this? This is what is this? Like? It looked like candy right, which was a good thing, because it brought you in. So that that led me Down to thinking, well, this is kind of Bo se in a way. And what is this? And then as soon as I started using that in the store, I was like, well this is over with my If only I had known how much my life would change and how much I would spend on Apple products going forward. Throughout my life I I probably should have stopped and never looked at it. But you know, I'm glad I did.

Andrew Canion  16:24  
You should have bought the stock and not the computer.

Jason Burk  16:27  
Always Yeah, for sure.

Martin Feld  16:29  
But it's a terrifying figure, isn't it? I mean, now I hate to think how much of a bill this is racking up now that we've got, you know, monthly subscriptions to what Apple Music iCloud, whatever you happen to subscribe to. So it's beyond the the hardware now and it's just all manner of charges constantly flying out.

Jason Burk  16:46  
I would love a clock on my wall with just a running total. I think that'd be great. Oh.

Andrew Canion  16:52  
The scary thing is I'm a one NAB phonetic, so I could probably actually look it up I could probably do a search and quickly tell you how much time Apple, but I'm not going to do it. I refuse. But it is like locking but, and I look around sometimes I think, is this still the right thing for me? Should I you know, is Apple Music still where I should be using or maybe a digital together or go to Spotify. And every time I do that I still come back and say not the even if it's a little bit more expensive. I don't feel like I'm being compelled to be locked in. I feel like I'm still being locked in by choice.

Jason Burk  17:28  
I would agree with that. Yeah, I think the whole lock in discussion, I find it somewhat infuriating. I don't know. It's probably super controversial, but I'm going to go there anyway. It's it's a choice. You know, it's not apple. As of today, whatever day we're recording, Apple doesn't run the world. You know that it's not a state sponsored OS that you must use. It seems like there's a new issue every day of people being locked into this or that or the other thing but at the end of the day, you're not really locked in, there's, I could get rid of all of my apple stuff today and switch to pick another thing. And that's fine. I could go get a wow, embarrassing, I forget what they're called what's the Microsoft Surface, I could go get a surface, I could get a, you know, pick a phone that you want. And it could do basically all the same stuff with just different applications. So there's really it's not as if my, you know, my contact list is not in Apple format. And if I try to leave, they will delete all my contacts. No, that's not how it is. I think I'm probably oversimplifying things quite a bit. And obviously I'm on the wrong side of the argument, judging by what's in front of me right now, but I just I don't see there being a major issue at this point. And I know there are many people and I apologize, Martin for all the feedback you're gonna get on this that disagree with that. But I just I I am not finding a super persuasive argument as to this lock in at this point, I think it is a choice. Am I locked in? Yes. Do I want to be at this point? Yes, I do. Are things quote more expensive? I don't think so. Because I think you can't just equate $1 to the actual product itself. You have to like most things, I don't think people value their time enough. They don't assign $1 value to their time. And that's one of the biggest problems with with a lot of areas. So when I buy a laptop for x, you know, say it's $3,000. And it's like, well, I could have got a Windows laptop for 400. Yes, that's absolutely true. And if that works for you, that's great. But for me, personally, that extra few dollars, whatever it is, the things that I can get done with that hardware and software. I enjoy it more. I get it done quicker. And at the end of the day, I'm not chasing down stupid bugs and issues with things that don't work because, you know, another thing that it's, it just works for me. Maybe I'm a rare unicorn in the Mac world. But things generally always work for me when it comes to Mac and iOS. I, I think a lot of the issues people have get amplified crazily out of proportion. But for me things just work. I don't know about you guys, but that's my impression.

Martin Feld  20:28  
Look, I mean, I agree with pretty much everything that you said, Jason. I think that term lock in, I mean, it is a sort of dramatic or emotive term people are locked in, in the sense that maybe they have a certain fandom or there's an attachment to the computer and they feel like if they leave, they're missing out on something, but I like that sort of turn that you used where it's not like a I think you said state sponsored or run OS.

Jason Burk  20:51  
Yeah, yeah, it's a there is no, there's no implied force that this is your only option.

Martin Feld  20:57  
Yeah, exactly. So really, I mean, I'm using this platform. Because I really enjoy it. It sounds like it's the same for both of you. I mean, sure, if I were to move somewhere else, I would feel probably a bit antsy or uncomfortable. And I'd I'd missed out on things and maybe some things wouldn't transfer over in the same way. But yeah, like you said, I mean, it is a bit of a cliche, but I do feel that it just works. I turn things on this speedy I never have any issues. I've never had anything in the way of, you know, malware or viruses. Although, of course, it is possible to get it on any computing platform. I've never had to rebuild anything or had any massive data loss. And I've been using MAC's since I was a kid non stop exposure to the windows world, of course, and, you know, obviously, stuff like Android smartphones, you always got to keep an eye on what's out there. But, you know, I think it's just a matter of finding the device that works for you. And if it gels with your workflow or your process, just be happy with it. It's when you start to see anti fandom or hate hatred for certain interests that I think it gets a bit rabid you know, We can be critical, we can look for alternatives. We can be analytical and sort of make sure that we criticize what companies like Apple are doing. But if you enjoy it, I think Go for it.

Jason Burk  22:10  
Absolutely. And it's your perspective as well, right? I mean, I'm a nerd. I dabble in everything. Do I, what I call myself a, you know, a developer? No, I wouldn't. If I was a developer, I may have some different opinions on the way things are working right now. You know, when you look at how apps are distributed on let's say, the iPhone where it's, you know, I want to be able to sideload I personally don't know I've done the whole Android thing of sideloading and all that. For me, it doesn't matter for some it might, but that's why there's choices if that's very important to you. There are options for you again, at the iPhone is not the only phone. For me. I think the big thing is that it is a it's an it's a choice, I have chosen to be here. And at any time I can leave Do I have a massive commitment to this brand. Now, you Yeah, I've put a ton of money and a ton of time into it. But that all that being said, I still can leave if I want to. I was

Andrew Canion  23:07  
gonna say that probably, if you boiled it all down, there's about three basic things that keep me on the Mac, really, if there was, I mean, there's lots of things I like about it. But these are the three things if he said, Take these away, maybe it will be quick look, love it, I use quick look, you know, hit the tap the spacebar and a big preview of the thing comes up, Windows does not have that. And I don't know how people can live without that. You know, in terms of just quickly checking Is this the right thing is not the right thing, living that thing. launchbar where you command space and you can navigate folders, directories and things to get somewhere quickly. Again, nothing like that, that I know of on Windows and you use that and people will look over your shoulder and they think you're just a magician. That's how I get around my computer. So I need that. Otherwise, I'm sort of free. Much hamstrung and the third one is I can't deal with the stupid janky touchpad things that they put on Windows machines I don't know what it is about what how they build PCs, but they have never come close to the the touchpad experience that Mac's have and they're usually terrible unresponsive they click when you don't want to click them. Those are three things that I like totally non negotiable the trackpad

Jason Burk  24:29  
is a good one that's like it's kinda like the Apple Pay thing where it's there and people it's just you know, it's not really an exciting feature but oh my gosh, this there is never there trackpads are just they nail it every single time. I've used other trackpads I've used them all the surface ones are okay but yeah, the the MacBook trackpad is is in a true truly in a league of its own. It's it's

Martin Feld  24:52  
the fact that something can be designed to feel so natural. It's something that you no longer think about and then when you are confronted with something that is clunky or janky Like you said, it suddenly removes that illusion of using the computer like it's an extension of your hands.

Jason Burk  25:06  
Yep. It's so forgiving to where you don't have to think about how you're using it. You know, you can have three, four or five fingers on there It doesn't matter because when you go to do the two fingers it just it somehow it just works which I'm now back to that just works thing again. But yeah, it does. I don't have false clicks. I don't, I don't I'm amazed at their trackpads

Andrew Canion  25:26  
and that's why I'll pay hundreds of dollars more for a Mac computer because that's that's my frustration that I'm going to be dealing with every day. If that thing doesn't work nicely, because I yes, I tried to save $300 on a purchase price. Not worth it. Not worth it at all. Andrew, you mentioned launchbar

Jason Burk  25:43  
with Martin Do you use I mean, I'm sure you do have some kind of launchy type thing. Which one do you use?

Martin Feld  25:49  
Actually, I'm very boring. I've I stick to the default spotlight. I don't know if that's sacrilege, but I've always just stuck with that.

Jason Burk  25:58  
Now I fully It used to not be great. But nowadays it does everything you really need to do I go back and forth as well. But

Andrew Canion  26:07  
yeah, that one is built right in. I think it's because of my work. Particularly I deal with a lot of different clients. So I'm in and out of client files. And I think I just I think about them by that. So I quickly search by the client, but then I'll need to traverse because I'm like a bit of a directory builder. So traverse their directories, you know, after I search just with my arrow keys, and then find the file that I'm interested in. Maybe quick look it, maybe open it. Yeah, it's all just done with the keyboard. So I don't spotlight or use occasionally, but I'm always a little bit underwhelmed by it.

Martin Feld  26:45  
So you find that using launchbar for search throughout your system just gives you some more granular search terms or abilities is Yeah, okay.

Andrew Canion  26:53  
Yeah, because you can then you can search for that and then you can act on it. So you can either drill into it or show me more details or if I'm looking at somebody else. My dress book and I just want to see their phone number, you can find them with watch bar arrow across and showing me their, their phone number. Now no spotlight can probably do all that. But I guess it's just so ingrained in me in the Launch Bar away now, after all these years, it just that's the way that I think. And every again, spotlight can do this. But every application load is basically you know, quick couple of keys and load Safari or load Malmaison or whatever it might be. And almost searching is done. My you know, if I started a DuckDuckGo search or Google search, it's a quick tap tap, a shortcut for you know, geo for Google or DD for Duck Duck go and then you type your search term into the Launch Bar itself. And then push enter and it opens a browser window and does it

Jason Burk  27:48  
It's funny how you mentioned looking like a magician, because it really does feel that way I I've mostly at work. I would notice things like this at different jobs where I've always been That guy with the Mac, you know, or it's just always that way. But you would you know, you're in a meeting, you're connected to a projector so everybody's seeing what you're doing. And it's the two worlds of the person with the Windows laptop, is if they can even get connected to the projector properly. They're fiddling around with Windows trying to get things you know, oh, press Alt F seven, Windows Key nine, and then it'll switch desktops or whatever it's like. And I'll never remember I'll never remember I'll never forget some presentation I was doing at some point. It was everybody that was there was was pretty, pretty high up there. And I go up and I plug in my MacBook and launch keynote and off, I'm going and about two minutes in, I hear a Okay, stop, stop, stop. And immediately I'm like, oh, like what this is supposed to just be everything's good. I've heard you know, if slides are good, everything's great. And it's I'm not going to say who it is, but they said, What the hell did you just do? I was like, What the hell? I'm gonna need a little more information than that. I'm not exactly sure what I've done wrong here. And he's like, you just plugged in your laptop and it just worked.

I was like, wow.

Yeah, that's, and in my head. I'm just like, What? Why is he? What does he What does he want out of this? Is this just bad humor on his part or what? I don't what? Yeah, what's the end goal here? Like, do I leave without a job? What's going on here? And he immediately turns over to one of the IT folks and he's like, why don't we all have that? I was like, Oh, god, this is not good. Because now it is looking at me like Yeah, thanks. Now everyone has to have Yeah, everyone that's in in you know, sea level has to have a MacBook and it was just like it was one of those things where I take it for granted. I just plug in my thing and it's works. That's how it's done. was to go. But yeah anyway with the the magic thing it just if it felt like one of those moments like how did he get the projector to work? Oh my gosh. And then you do something like a launch box sounds

Martin Feld  30:10  
like a very successful presentation.

Jason Burk  30:13  
Yeah, that was I should have just shut it down right there and left.

Andrew Canion  30:17  
close the deal.

Jason Burk  30:18  
Done. Yeah, exactly.

Martin Feld  30:20  
Because then when you call them backdrop rather than so that's really bad. I think it might be Yeah, fortunately I didn't have to give him my laptop that was my next worry. Oh God, but honestly, I don't know what his feeling is on this but I totally relate to what you're saying about being in inverted commas, the Mac guy at work, you just sort of through some sort of very gentle vibe or suggestion or tone in your voice. You just sort of lose this madness. And whenever there happens to be a Windows issue, I can't help but characterize it as a Windows issue. Like if someone says I've got a problem here can you help and I just sort of go are this appears to be a dot dot dot windows issue and I can't help but just sort of highlight that it's an issue that is not with a Mac. And unlike God, yeah, stop yourself.

Jason Burk  31:05  
Yeah, at my last job I was at, there was a few of us. And we started tracking the time that it took from meetings to get started because of quote unquote, Windows issues. And it was a very significant amount of time. Like, see the money you're saving on those laptops. Look where it's going. It's going into people sitting around twiddling their thumbs waiting.

Martin Feld  31:26  
It sounds like we can sort of all revel in our quantified smugness. Is that a good way to put it? I don't know.

Jason Burk  31:31  
Yeah, it sounds horrible, saying and I'm never gonna listen to this back. But it's true.

Martin Feld  31:37  
I can always cut it if you want or maybe not. Who knows? On the topic of it just works thinking about WWDC this year, and for anyone who doesn't follow the Worldwide Developers Conference or all of Apple's keynotes as cleanly as we obviously do, everything went online this year because of the COVID-19 situation, which is dreadful in itself. But all in all Apple's pre recorded keynote format. was a title here really, really swish really, really professionally done? Of course. I mean, what what we wanted you to think about what were your impressions and do you follow up and install things like, betas or betas?

Jason Burk  32:12  
Jason you you're like, right around the corner. We should just help people out and geolocating Yeah, you're, you're right near apple. I used to be actually not anymore. Just we just moved actually out of the state. But yeah, we were we when WWDC was in San Jose, it was about three minutes from our house. So yeah, we were right there. But now we're up in we're in Portland, Oregon now, so we're not as close but given COVID we wouldn't be close anyway. But I think from an event standpoint, I could not be happier with the way I went. I much much prefer the tight, well edited video versus live because for me, I just I don't think you gain you gain nothing. From live, if you have the ability to do it pre recorded, do it. Because as everyone knows, every demo, there's going to be an issue, something's going to happen. And especially with the terrible, trashy news cycles that we have now, you can have the most amazing announcement ever. And you could do a typo in the demo. And immediately the only thing people are talking about is a typo. And it's like, especially if it's if it's an apple related thing, it just gets amplified because everybody gets clicks and all of that. But anyway, back to the actual event. I thought the event was amazing. I thought they pulled it off really well, especially given the timeframe that they had, you know, these things are not planned in a week and I'm sure this has been the second one ends, I'm sure planning for the next one begins. So having something like a worldwide pandemic thrown into the mix, they they pulled it off, and I think that's they deserve a lot of credit for being able especially their events team to be able Pull off something from a live event with thousands of people and physical stuff to all online, delivering the same messaging. And from what I could tell, it seemed like interactivity was still pretty good. All things considered.

Andrew Canion  34:17  
I think that's so almost the unsung superpower of Apple is how they can coordinate all these other bits and pieces that aren't directly related to making and selling computers. Well, how do you? How do you do the logistics of you know, first of all, how do you do logistics of WWDC and make that happen? And then how do you go now scratch that we're going to take it all online and we're going to make it absolutely schmick and it's going to look amazing, gonna be high quality. I mean, just managing people to get that to happen is an incredible feat, and I don't know how they manage it. More power to them as all those unsung people that never get stage time. Make that stuff happened. Definitely anything.

Jason Burk  35:01  
And I think a lot of times people just say, well, they have all this money they can do whatever. And it's like, that's not the point. All the money in the world does not make something like this happen. Yeah,

Martin Feld  35:10  
yeah. And I think the the real thing about WWDC, this year pandemic topics aside, it's really sort of shows maybe realization or shifting view about who the audience actually is. Because naturally, I mean, developers, that's, that's the term that's in the name of the entire event. It's really traditionally been angled towards developers, because it's about new software developments, API's coding stuff, that's way beyond my understanding. But given that Apple has such enormous brand power now and a global audience, you know, it's that worldwide point that really sticks out in the name now, really, the pre recorded format now makes it more accessible for people watching at home and much, much tighter as you said. So perhaps it's an understanding that the event itself has changed. I

Jason Burk  35:57  
think one indicator of that too, is when they started doing public beta. As to back to where you brought up the betas, right? Because historically, it's always been developer betas and you know, idiots like me would get an account anyway. So I can install the developer betas on day one, and then not have a phone that works. But the fact that there are public betas now I think speaks a lot to the the point of that event. And I think you're right, it is a lot more of a, I think advertisement is the wrong word, but a way to get people kind of pre excited, which is, I think, something that has to happen now, where it used to just be you know, there was a new iPhone coming in September. And that was enough. But now, in our culture today, you kind of keep needing those little nudges more regularly instead of just one big nudge. So I think this is just yet another way to say, hey, here comes some cool stuff. And maybe it matters to you. And maybe it doesn't, obviously, all the API stuff. Normal people don't care about but Maybe something like the messages, you know, track back or tap backs and all that they make that might be something that makes somebody think, hey, maybe I will upgrade my phone this year, even though I didn't last year that

Andrew Canion  37:11  
I just want to ask you a question as well, Martin. And I'm curious. Well, Justin, you'll be I'll chime in as well. I'm curious whether this is an Australian thing, or I don't know what. But I always found that I really liked the switch to video. This year. It was quicker and more, more dynamic and engaging. But the one thing that I really noticed and I enjoyed was not having the full applause for every little thing. It feels just a word that that clapping every little bit of announcement always just felt so cheesy and forced, and just unnecessary. Yeah. For and, and I wonder if that is? Is that my Australian sensibilities? Or is that do other people interpret it that way, too.

Martin Feld  37:56  
Oh, look, I mean, I think that's a fair thing to say. I think it's, we're just becoming more and more aware of the format. Or maybe another way to put it is seeing the matrix seeing the illusion. So, you know, back in the time when it was Steve Jobs, and it was really just him on stage with some, you know, people accompanying him, it really was like, the grand leader walks out on stage, and everyone's really enthusiastic, and what's the story going to be this time, but obviously, you know, with his death, and then more and more people coming out on stage, the entire flavor of the thing changes. And, you know, there is that whole thing of Apple, apparently, you know, putting retail people in the audience to applaud and make it louder. So, I think, yeah, I think you're right. It's sort of the Australian sensibility, or I mean, we're a bit more sarcastic or maybe pessimistic stereotypically than Americans, typically. I mean, Jason, maybe you could comment on whether you think that's true or not. But I think that maybe rising levels of applause, the fact that we've witnessed a shift in the way that the events work, and we're seeing the shift in the way that they construct them and the number of people they bring out in this sort of period. To try to have more diverse people on stage, we're just more, I think, aware of what we're actually seeing and how its constructed than what it was in the past.

Unknown Speaker  39:09  
I see it as a corporate culture issue, personally, having been in the large corporations in the past, you know, you go to an all hands meeting or whatever, and it's the exact same thing, right? Where there's a person going up there, they're gonna say something, everyone is obliged to clap, whether they think it's great. I think it's horrible, can't stand it. It's just part of the culture that is corporate. And I think this just kind of bled into that. So I don't know if I see it as anything more than that. I do agree that it's not needed. Much like doing demos live, if you don't have to, don't know because you can make that pacing just that much quicker. And I think the points just get get across that much better.

Martin Feld  39:54  
Sorry to put you on the spot. Jason. And I'm being a bit facetious here, but just given what you were saying about corporate culture in America have been You ever felt yourself clapping spontaneously on command?

Transcribed by https://otter.ai