[00:00:00] Stephen: Imagine coming from a really modest family existence in India to becoming a software engineer right in the middle of the.com era boom in Silicon Valley. Well, that's what happened to Apurva Kothari, our guest today. It seemed like he'd achieved every single young boy's dream being a software consultant in San Francisco, New York, and eventually on into Sydney.

[00:00:19] But sometimes in our lives there's a trigger and it makes an impact on our lives so powerful we simply can't ignore it. So while Apu was in New York, he read an article about the cotton crisis in Indian, Indian farming. And that 300,000 farmers from India had taken their lives by suicide. That's a farmer every 30 minutes. Just think about that. The catalyst that seemed for that was GM farming. It had moved into India in the nineties. In the late nineties.

[00:00:45] How powerless so many of us feel in reading statistics, just like that. I'm just wondering how powerless the farmers and their families must have felt. And it brings mind that African proverb, you know, the one that, um, Anita Roddick from the Body Shop used quite a lot. If you think you're too small to make a difference, you simply haven't spent the night with a mosquito.

[00:01:06] So Apu, he decided to become that mosquito and he left the world of software engineering behind and he decided to create a sustainable clothing company. He did that in 2011. That company was No Nasties, we're gonna talk about that today. They use only organic cotton and other sustainable materials like coconut shells for buttons. And they very closely monitor, inform you the consumer, so when you buy the product, you know what the carbon footprint of the product is when you're buying it. It even has a returns policy on its used clothing. So you're gonna learn more about this later.

[00:01:36] But I have a feeling that by the end of this interview, you're gonna have a greater understanding of the, in sustainability, not the sustainability, but the ins sustainability of the present consumerism model we've all simply been sold. We simply shop an autopilot. We don't think of the impact of what we're purchasing. We don't think of what the impact has on the planet are on our fellow humans. So hopefully from this. You're gonna want to participate in a meaningful way by maybe purchasing clothing with a more informed and ethical lens. No Nasties is a perfect starting place to find out more about that.

[00:02:11] Happiness at work, when I talk about this a lot, means absolutely nothing. If we look behind the curtain and we see the misery of others along the supply chain, Happiness at work like Apu shows, sometimes starts by us becoming that mosquito. Welcome to the Wow at Work podcast.

[00:02:31] 

[00:02:34] Apurva: I grew up in a small middle class, uh, family. Um, there were four of us in a one bedroom apartment. My brother, myself, uh, and my parents used to sleep on the couches growing up. Uh, but we came from an engineering background. My dad's side of the family are all engineers, mechanical engineers, and a fair amount of education in the family. But, uh, certain financial challenges just led us to have a very, uh, simple but, um, pleasant family life growing up, you know. Uh, we were always good with studies. We knew we'd make it to the next level if he just worked hard, but I didn't want to work hard. I just wanted to play cricket all day, so I did that.

[00:03:16] But I think what our parents did was to make sure that we had the right stepping stones, you know, uh, getting into an engineering degree in India and then making sure we studied further, uh, with a master's degree in the US. So both my brother and I went abroad to study in some of the top universities in the country to really see if he had the right foundation for a good foot, good, uh, career. You know, they put a lot of effort into it. Uh, took loans, uh, taught us, my dad taught us for, uh, himself for hours as well, teaching us the science and the math, which is what is essential for any Indian growing up in the eighties and nineties. Cause everyone can only become an engineer or a doctor. There are no real choices beyond that. So, um, he put that effort in and he, both of us went through, you know, my brother went to Stanford. Um, I went to, uh, Texas, university of Texas at Austin, which are both top five colleges.

[00:04:08] Stephen: So when you did that, then that, that must have been a huge move. Like to come from somewhere like India, straight into the most westernized, uh, you know, society in the world.

[00:04:17] Apurva: Oh my God. Yeah. Um, I still remember the first day I landed in the us. And I was in Texas and I couldn't, I almost got broke my neck looking at every car on the road. I was like, whoa, what's that? Whoa, what's that? And big giant highways in Texas, you know, um, reached my family, my aunt's house, and it was like mansion, almost like going from a one bedroom apartment to like a eight bedroom, nine bedroom apartment. And there was just normal living for them.

[00:04:42] But took a while. Um, definitely was a bit of a culture shock and we'd only seen the US and on tv, you know, what we saw in Friends and Baywatch, and that was our expectation. But obviously everyone in the US doesn't quite look like the Baywatch crew, so that took a while to get adjusted too, so. 

[00:05:03] Um, fantastic. You know, we jumped right into a master's degree. Uh, it is a short course, like a four semester course. I didn't quite know what I wanted to focus on. Um, I was using it as a stepping stone. So in each of the four semesters, I've, I majored in something different, completely different from like optical electronics and lasers to chip design, to hardware design, and then finally computer software. And that's where I kind of ended up with my career. My first job as well was in, um, as a software engineer. 

[00:05:37] Stephen: Okay, so where'd that bring you to that leave you in Austin? Or did it take you out of Austin to another?

[00:05:41] Apurva: I went from Austin to San Francisco, um, which was in the height of the.com era. And, uh, funnily enough, uh, one of the US newspapers or magazines ranked Austin as the second best place in the wo in the country and San Francisco as the, the best place in the country. So that was the only upgrade possible, so that was really fun.

[00:06:03] But I landed in Silicon Valley in the middle of the boom, you know, so a lot of enthusiasm and uh, and excitement around what the internet can bring, and a lot of money floating around as well. So that took a while. Look at youth two as well. You know, it was almost like being high on, on the economy, not really getting a grounding or reality check until the boom burst. So, and then we're like, ah, yeah, everybody doesn't have a million dollar job. Everyone doesn't drive a Ferrari. So I never got, I never had a million dollars of a Ferrari, but still the dream was there.

[00:06:37] Stephen: So you pretty much hit the jackpot when it comes to like engineering jobs. Like everybody's dream was like, get to Silicon Valley, be part of the host or a Startup grind and.

[00:06:46] Apurva: Yeah, I was really happy with that. I think the foundation was there with my master's degree as well. Um, everyone was hiring aggressively in Silicon Valley. So we, uh, but I think I found the right job, which allowed me to get the exposure. Um, I work for a consulting firm, so it allowed me exposure to different industries. Allowed me to travel a little bit as well. And, uh, very a very successful.com. So they had the right culture in place, they had the right, uh, policies in place to create a successful culture. You know, and I learned a lot from there on how to build a good company, you know, how to value employees, how to, how to create a learning curve, learning path for people as well.

[00:07:24] Stephen: And from that, did you stay in San Francisco or did you, did you travel again in the US?

[00:07:28] Apurva: I was in that job for three years and then the.com burst happened. Um, and I lost that job, but luckily I was consulting for a company and they hired us anyways, so I stayed on for about seven years in San Francisco. Had a great time, and then moved from there to New York for three or four years, and then eventually out of the country, actually it was in New York when my mind started shifting to asking more questions, why I'm working, what am I doing in life, you know? 

[00:07:58] Um, San Francisco was fantastic. New York was an, was a high as well, living there, working in a good company there as well. Getting paid more and more, buying better wine every day, every week. But then there was annoying feeling inside my stomach saying, what's the point of all this? You know, it's like a thorn on your side, like, what's the point? What's the point? 

[00:08:19] And I didn't quite address it for a while. , but I started making trips back to India to understand, uh, some of the challenges there. And I'd come across the issue of, uh, suicides, farmer suicides in cotton farming. And I kind of researched that space for a few years. I'd go back every year, try and meet more cotton farmers and see what was going on on the ground, trying to understand the challenges they were facing and what was causing this, uh, this disaster of suicides. It's, it was over 300,000 suicides in 20 years, the highest number of suicides recorded in human history, and at a staggering rate of, uh, one every half an hour.

[00:08:58] The nature of farming had changed in, uh, the late nineties from regular. Age old practices of saving seeds and reusing them from season to season. Uh, the introduction of genetically modified seeds changed the nature of farming. Suddenly farmers had to buy expensive seeds and buy expensive pesticides, uh, with, and they were doing that with a promise of a higher yield and more bug resistance. But the in the cost structures changed significantly. They had to take loans initially to buy the seeds. Um, and if the, if the rains were late, they had to buy seeds again and they would've like a second loan and then a third loan, and then they get caught up in a cycle of debt, which they couldn't escape. So taking a loan from a government bank, then a private bank, then a loan shark, and having, having to repay interest as much as 2% a day, which was just a vicious cycle of debt, which they were getting cotton to.

[00:09:56] So, and even at the end of the season, if the, if the crop was successful, that meant the market rates for cotton were low and they wouldn't get the returns, enough returns to repay it. If the season was bad, anyways, they were caught up in a cycle of debt. So, and the next time they wanted to farm the next season, they had to buy new seeds, go to the whole cycle again. 

[00:10:16] The big change was the proliferation of these GM seeds in the rural areas. These were the only seeds they could access. They couldn't, they didn't have access to natural old seeds, which they used to use before. And everything just changed on in a few years.

[00:10:30] Stephen: Was Monsanto the ca catalyst in this?

[00:10:32] Apurva: Yeah. The other Monsanto is the main supplier of these GMCs in India. Uh, they're Indian division. But yeah, they're the ones who, who actually created a two or three different versions of GM seeds, which is, I think 98% of all cotton farming in India is now GM.

[00:10:49] Stephen: And was the, uh, Indian government complicit in this? Obviously there was an agreement between the Indian government and Monsanto that this was okay?

[00:10:58] Apurva: Well, Monsanto's known and infamous for having connections with government officials. So especially in the US and stuff where they drive a lot of policy. It's almost, if you read the news articles, they'll say that it's a revolving door between Monsanto board members and Congress members. I don't know the exact situations in India when it started, how it started, but it was definitely welcomed as a solution, almost like a scientific solution to increase the cotton yields, without really realizing the impact on that.

[00:11:29] There are benefits from a single yield metric, but they didn't quite factor in roi. Risk factors, long-term, long-term, uh, soil health, variations when weather, climate change is coming in, or uh, World Trade Organization, uh, policies are changed.

[00:11:51] So the long term impact of that wasn't studied until it was stipulated. You know, and it was just shocking. I was surprised that not only was it happening, but that it was hardly being spoken about, you know, uh, the governments and the newspapers were hardly reporting it. There wasn't much being done for fixing that, and that just kind of felt disappointing. But it wasn't cotton. It was in the rural parts of India. I have no connection to either cotton or fashion or rural India. I grew up in Bombay, which is as urban as it can get, you know. 

[00:12:20] So I didn't quite take action on it, but I, I wasn't quite able to shake it off either, so I kept on it for about a few years. In the meantime, I knew I was trying to fill the gap, which I was feeling inside by changing the outside. Um, I went from New York to Sydney, uh, lived there for a year, then went back from Sydney to San Francisco for a year. Uh, thinking that if I changed the external world, I'll be able to kind of calm myself down a little bit as well, you know. I swapped bridges of the brook. Swapped, uh, views of the Brooklyn Bridge for the San, the Sydney Harbor Bridge and the Sydney Opera House, then back to Golden Gate Bridge, and finally I realized the answer is not in the view of the bridge, but just trying to bring more harmony in what I'm doing, you know? 

[00:13:08] And, um, I go back to the, to one single quote from Mahatma Gandhi, which is saying that Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do is in harmony. And I realized that's what I need to do to actually find more purpose in life is I was thinking about the pharmacy sites issue. I was talking about it a lot to my friends as well, but it was time to align what I did in life with that as well.

[00:13:31] So having spoken to the former organizations, the realization was that they know what to do on the ground. They know that organic practices are more sustainable for them and lower risk as well. Uh, they were already forming cooperatives and fair trade groups, which would ensure, uh, not just safe conditions, but also collective, uh, action as well, you know, better purchasing power, better selling power.

[00:13:57] So while that movement was happening on the ground, their next challenge was just acceptance and adoption and awareness of both the problem and the solutions in India. Almost everyone who was working with them were international brands. Um, European brands who were, uh, who were promoting the Fair Trade Movement as well.

[00:14:21] The big gap was that Indian consumers were not aware or did not have a solution to be part of this organic fair trade movement. So after looking at this, our solution was to, was to place ourselves on the consumer end of the supply chain, to create awareness of the issue, but also offer a solution by way of our clothes. You know, just by buying organic, by choosing organic and fair trade, you're supporting the entire supply chain. And the overall goal was to see if we could create enough market share for us that customers, consumers would start demanding it from other brands and then other brands would have to follow more sustainable practices.

[00:15:03] And that's what we've seen over the years, you know, now sustainable fashion when we started was in its nascent stages. I had to explain what organic is, uh, leave alone, fair trade. But now those are more mainstream terms. Um, bigger, bigger fashion brands are also promoting organic now because consumers are demanding it. 

[00:15:21] Stephen: Okay. So pe, so for people listening to this, you developed, you started to develop, uh, uh, the company now that is No Nasties, your company and that, and that was back in?

[00:15:30] Apurva: Back in 2011 is when we launched, um, and we launched as India's first Fair Trade Clothing brand. I started the brand in a spare bedroom in my apartment in Bombay, uh, just making t-shirts, designer graphic design t-shirts, uh, and creating a community of artists as well. And we did, did that for about three or four years, and I eventually got tired of living in a big crowded city of Mumbai, and I moved to the beachside town of, uh, Goa where I am now. So we've been here about eight, nine years. We've grown from being a t-shirt brand to a more full fashioned brand. So we do t-shirts, shirts, dresses, skirts, uh, jackets, et cetera.

[00:16:11] Stephen: And are you international? 

[00:16:12] Apurva: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, our primary focus has been in the Indian market where we said that we will kickstart the sustainable fashion movement, but at the same time, we wanted to join the movement where it already existed in Europe and in the US and in Australia, and using this, well, those are the primary markets. At this point. I would say about 20 to 25% of all our customers are international.

[00:16:36] We've shipped to over 65 countries. Um, I was shocked when I saw the report, like we've shipped to places like Vanuatu and, uh, Puerto Rico, to Chile, to Iran, to Fiji, to some places I didn't even know existed. I had to look them up on the map and I was like, wow, we got, we've reached there and this is without any active advertising, you know, just people were looking for the right product, which matched their values. The founders online, so that's the beauty of the internet. 

[00:17:08] Stephen: I think that's, that's wonderful. That's one of the things that I know during lockdown, my daughter was looking at of ways to be able to change the way she bought clothes. Certainly that became quite significant for her. And it is so easy. I can walk down to the town here where I live. There's a Primark, there's all those fast fashion places that I can easily pick up stuff without even having to think about it or think about the price and the price is cheap. Bring it home, wear it for a short while and probably never wear it again or whatever, you know, or for tears, it's not gonna bother me too much.

[00:17:36] That's pretty much what you're sort of rallying against because we've created a world where sort of fast fashion and consumerism has seemed to been, you know, has, has taken over the way. What that we sh shop and buy without even thinking.

[00:17:48] Apurva: Yeah, absolutely. and I think that awareness is rising about the true cost of what you are buying. You might be paying $2 here, but it's coming at the cost of women exploitation in a third world country. It's coming at the cost of the environment with using cheap dyes and, uh, toxic chemicals for which get, which get disposed of in our water systems. You know, it's coming from ch uh, child labor, you know, and that's something which you'd never want to support, right? kids clothing should be for kids, not by kids, and that's sadly is still happening. Um, and that, and that's why we need these systems, these fair trade systems, which are more transparent in monitoring what act, where exactly your product comes.

[00:18:29] Stephen: So tell me the difference between like what, uh, like a farmer who provides organic cotton to you and a farmer that's caught up in the GM cycle. What's the difference between the way those two farmers farm and, and their impact on the environment?

[00:18:40] Apurva: it's a great question For GM farming, it's mostly reliant on market inputs, buying seeds and pesticides from the local store, versus an organic farmer who has to put the effort in into, to sourcing natural seeds, saving them for the next season, working in smaller groups because they're, the community is much smaller and sharing that knowledge, um, it's sharing knowledge of, uh, pest control, natural pest control without spraying carcinogenic chemicals on their crops. it's using a lot more crop diversity as well to maintain the, the health of the soil.

[00:19:17] So a GM farmer would typically allocate a small part of his, uh, farmland for vegetable shopping, but it, he'd make sure that it's for his own family's consumption and he'd make sure that it's far as far away as it possible and shielded from the chemicals which they're spraying on their crop. They know they're harmful, they never eat them.

[00:19:36] And the final changes that. GM's farmers are typically more self-contained, whereas organic farmers are almost always now working in a collect collective and a cooperative structure here in India. So, uh, better selling power, holding power as well, and more knowledge sharing within the team. 

[00:19:54] Stephen: Probably better access to, um, uh, collective pricing and and all different types 

[00:19:59] Apurva: Yeah. Yeah. I think the closest example, the analogy I would give is imagine if you wanted to eat tomato, uh, it's easy enough to go to a supermarket and just buy tomatoes versus growing your own tomatoes as well. You know, the amount of care and the, and love that you have in that is very different. So the appreciation for the product is different as well.

[00:20:18] Stephen: What's the difference then? So what can you tell me the difference, what is be between the two different types of t-shirts? If I buy that fast fashion cotton t-shirt, you know, that cost a couple of dollars or whatever, euros, whatever it might be compared to what I buy from No Nasties? 

[00:20:31] Apurva: Let me answer that in a broader question actually, and I'll, that'll be a segue to what we are doing. Our focus is now as well. So for the first 10 years from 2011 to 2021, we tried to make the most sustainable t-shirt possible, you know, by sourcing locally, by sourcing organic cotton, by, by working with fair trade vegan practices as well, to create the least impact on the planet and make sure there's n there's least exploitation for workers as well, for people as well. So it's very people plus planet focused.

[00:21:04] And right there, the difference between a Primark or any fast fashion brand would be that the environmental damage is reduced, plus you are paying the right people, the right prices for it, right? Uh, Fair Trade. The Fair Trade model is to, um, make sure that there's a minimum price paid to, to farmers plus a Fair trade premium, which goes into community development, which is typically 15 to 20% as well, which the farmers then decide where to use it, how to use it. So none of that happens in the Primark model. They are fighting for every cent of your 1 99, uh, dollar 1, 1 99 pound t-shirt, right?

[00:21:43] A bigger share of the, the money from No Nasties would go back into the supply chain to the right people to make sure that the right practices are being held, the factories are using water treatment plants as well, and there's no toxic, uh, drainage going out as well. So much lower impact than any fast fashion brand. 

[00:22:06] Now, fast forward that to a couple of years. where at the 10th year anniversary, the topic of climate change became the primary focus. Now, as sustainable as we were, there was still an impact, right? There's still a fi, there's a carbon footprint, there's still some impact on what we are making. And the realization was that we are not making good clothes as much as less bad clothes, but the impact is still negative, which would mean that even if everybody shifted to sustainable, less bad clothes, we're still harming the planet in the long run. And that's not gonna be enough with the looming climate crisis that we have. And we started looking at how do we actually flip that? How do we say that you are actually helping the planet by purchasing from No Nasties?

[00:23:02] And that's where we come up with the planet positive model, where we actually measure the impact. We minimize the impact already by using organic, uh, local supply chains, by using natural dyes as much as possible as well by using no plastics in our packaging, even the buttons at coconut shell buttons, et cetera, to really minimize the footprint. But we are not stopping there. We are measuring the footprint for each and every garment that we make. And we are saying we have to make, make it flip it from a negative impact to a positive impact. And we do that by offsetting the carbon footprint, uh, not just by one x, but actually three x. So we do 300% carbon offsets, and on top of that, we plant three trees for every product as well. So the carbon offsets have an immediate impact and the trees will have a longer term impact to the future as well. So the net goal is that actually purchasing a No Nasties garment will lead to improving the condition of the planet.

[00:23:58] And then it's almost flipping consumerism on its head. Imagine if every purchase made by everyone on the planet is planet positive. If every purchase we make has funds going to battle, climate change, and reverse climate change, and that'll be a beautiful model for all of us to follow, and it'll accelerate the reversal and the solution towards climate change.

[00:24:20] Stephen: Because I live in an environment here where I see delivery trucks arrive all the time to people's houses and dropping off packages from, uh, you know, Amazon warehouses and other warehouses across Europe with lots of cardboard and lots of, uh, recyclable materials. Some goes to be recycled, some gets chucked in the bin, and some, you know, is never reused again. You have a different approach to this.

[00:24:40] Apurva: Yeah. So I'll cover both parts. So, um, just to continue that, the cost of packing and shipping, while significant is still a very small portion of the overall cost of making garments. You know, the production of and farming, uh, chemical inputs, pr, uh, product manufacturing is the, by far the most significant portion of your carbon footprint. And what would be interesting is if there was a government mandate that every company had to measure its footprint and offset it, there would be a race to find climate CH change solutions, right? Amazon would f fund millions and millions of dollars to say, how are we gonna minimize this? What's better than cardboard? What's better than recycled cardboard? What if we have solar powered trucks only, right? Because that's affecting their bottom line.

[00:25:31] And I'm hoping that that's where the world goes. You know, we start by creating consumer demand. Consumers can demo it from brands and then brands will eventually brands and the government will step in and say, this is regulation. You've got to do this, right?

[00:25:42] And we have that. If you see the analogy of, uh, food, there are now regulations which say how much, how much crap you can put in food. Uh, there there is transparency. In food as well. And all food labels will have to now measure and report sugar levels and, uh, sodium levels and carbohydrate, and simple carbohydrate levels. That wasn't the case years ago. But now it's default. Every brand, every food company has to report that, and that's consumer information. 

[00:26:11] Now, what if the, and now because it is reported, they're gonna work on minimizing the sugar levels, for example, because they want consumers to pick the most healthy option. Now the same thing has to happen with carbon footprint. You have to measure the carbon footprint. And now companies are gonna raise to make sure that they have the least carbon footprint, because that's where the consumer money is going,

[00:26:31] And the big change will come and it becomes regulation. There's no way around it. You know, it's not the goodwill of the companies who are doing it, but it's just law. 

[00:26:39] Like I said earlier as well, that the majority of the footprint is in production of new materials. Even though it's recycled and stuff, there is a smaller percentage of small percentage of products which actually are recycled, even if it's cardboard. So luckily cardboard is great because it can be composted, composted as well, but the production cycle is still intensive.

[00:26:58] For our packaging solution. Last year we introduced returnable packaging. Uh, we are using recycled materials to make our delivery bags. Uh, they're a hundred percent recycled, reused, uh, with old polyester bags and made into bags, which can be shipped to customers in a sealed manner. Uh, they get it. They scanner QR code on the bag, and we come pick it up again, and we reuse the same bag over and over again, so there's no more disposable packaging at all.

[00:27:27] So a few months ago we launched what we call the circular closet program, where we said each and every known garment ever made can now be sent back to us and we will find a way to repurpose it.

[00:27:38] Um, and we've got three levels of circular fashion there. If a product is new, irrespective of its stage of life. If it's new or almost. We encourage people to resell it directly from consumer to consumer and we have the software on our website for that. If it's in its midlife stages where it's kind of nice, but you're tired of it or you might have some stains, we find a way to repair it and give it back to you, or we donate it to a local thrift store and make sure that there's a second user, and it continues with thread.

[00:28:10] But the biggest challenge in the industry has always been the end of life stage. You know, where it's too torn to give it to someone. Yes, there's no way nothing to do, but use it as rags or throw it in the garbage. Um, we partnered with, uh, local, um, artists here in India to actually strip down your old clothes into, uh, strands of fabric and then hand weave that back into fresh fabric, which then we make new clothes from. Um, and we, we call it the most sustainable shirt ever. It's the re-shirt, where it's completely recycled overstock fabrics. It's naturally dyed with, uh, indigo and natural materials. There's coconut shell buttons, and nothing goes to waste. So 0% waste, a hundred percent circular.

[00:28:54] Um, and I believe that that is what truly is recycled, you know, instead of down cycling it into rags or something else, making clothes back from clothes again. Um, we are hoping that it's still in the r and d phase. We've launched a new product. We're gonna do a lot more in that. Um, and what that does is it takes away that big chunk of the, the carbon footprint of producing fresh cotton, what to do with the old clothes, um, and it's trying to find the circular economy there as well. 

[00:29:21] Stephen: And how intensive is that process of de stranding the old shirts? 

[00:29:26] Apurva: it's, it's human intensive, but it serves as a great secondary income to the groups that we work with. We work with former groups. In, in the state of Rochester. Um, it's not as complicated as you think. It's a lot simpler than making fresh cotton fabric, which goes through this now. It's a standard industrialized missionized process where it goes through ginning, spinning, combining carding, dyeing, et cetera, so, which is a much higher carbon footprint of that. There's no machinery or it actually creates local employment as well. And it's easily combined with like artistic taste and creative tastes who come up with different colors, different weaving techniques, all of that. So, and we've seen a fantastic response. We've launched three different kinds of shirts, three different colors, and was some amazed at how receptive the audience is to a model like this as well. So, and then that ties back with our returnable bags because now we are saying like, send us back your old No Nasties, we'll make new clothes out of that for you. 

[00:30:26] Stephen: I think that's a fantastic idea. Not just with the recycling, but the repurposing of old clothes to as well is something that we, well, and I see this all the time, whether you go to landfill, you even see it in the sides of the roads here, where people just discard clothes and they're left there. They'd be made and produced, and energy's gone into, into them. Like I talk about, like, you know, To a lot of companies about workplace Happiness, and I think workplace Happiness cannot happen if you're an organization that at the end of the supply chain, we don't get to see the back end, what's behind the curtain and behind the curtain is what you're doing with farmers, you know, what you're doing with sustainability, what you're doing with, you know, protection to the environment, or even thinking about how we can actually be a better product for, you know, the world as, as a whole. And I think a lot of time we see workplace Happiness as just something that we just do with how we treat our, you know, uh, our staff, our how many ping pong tables that we give them are the free fruit that we supply. It's bigger than that, and I think we need to look beyond that. You cannot be that organization that says, yeah, we're, we're, we're this realistically happy workplace because we've done all these great things for our culture within the organization, if behind the curtain there is something darker and something sort of deeper that needs to be addressed going on, 

[00:31:32] Apurva: And it has to go in, it's in it's imagine expanding circles of influence and of circles of caring as well. You've taken care of the immediate needs with great food, great entertainment, ping pong tables there, but giving them more purpose as well. And saying that we are aligning whatever we do at work with a larger goal. And for us it's like, okay, we are saving the world by selling these clothes. And that itself is such a great feeling for everyone on that team.

[00:31:58] Stephen: Yeah. I'd also spoken with uh, uh, Ynzo Van Zanten, who was the choco evangelist with a company called Tony's Chocolonely, which is a Dutch based chocolate organization. You may have heard of them. They came to being because they had, I think it's, uh, June was the, uh, journalist who was doing, uh, some pieces on, on chocolate. And he discovered that there was lots of child labor involved in chocolate and decided that rather than just keep writing articles, he wanted to be able to do something quite different. And he wanted to actually set up a, a company that actually transformed the way we think about chocolate in eat chocolate. And like you, like from the point of where they produce the, their, their product all the way back to what the farmers get as a fair price for, for the chocolate and how, you know, the communities are treated out there, um, that's a chocolate that, you know, you feel you're aligned to once you're buying it, you're doing good. And it's the same with your product too as well.

[00:32:44] Apurva: Yeah, exactly. I think the three main crops which have the most exploitation is, uh, cacao, for chocolates, coffee and cotton. No. And they're the ones which Fair Trade Movements work with as well, but chocolate's historically been a huge, huge issue. So the sourcing of chocolate from there. 

[00:33:01] Stephen: So what has the response been from, or have you had any response from the likes of the, you know, the fast fashion companies, whether it's Boohoo, it's it's Primark or the bigger Zara, H&M?

[00:33:11] Apurva: No Nasties is a drop in the ocean, if that, you know. But what we've done, managed to do is create mind share and awareness in consumers. We're now asking more and more brands to be more sustainable. Um, the, even in India itself now has dozens, if not hundreds of sustainable fashion brands who are now having to raise the bar as well to kind of compete and say like, okay, I'm not just another t-shirt company, but I'm also sustainable in these five, six ways.

[00:33:40] And collectively, all of our sustainable brands are, I think, are eating enough out of the market share for fast fashion where they are needing to create a sustainable line for their own customers. You know, so part of it might be sustainability driven itself with their own. Um, all these companies have net zero goals by 20 50, 30, 40, but I do, I'd like to think that we've made a dent by eating up and, uh, and taking, uh, some of the revenue away as well.

[00:34:10] Stephen: So I can hear lots of sort of sound going on in the background. So obviously there's production, there's work being done where you are at the moment, what's it like working, uh uh, in the no Nasties headquarters?

[00:34:19] Apurva: Uh, we're in our studio slash warehouse, uh, and we have our own flagship store, just two doors down as well. I'm the only guy here, uh, everyone else. It's a women powered team. Um, and, uh, we are in a lovely small, uh, boutique house, uh, with brickstone, in a village in Gowa, in North Goa, you know, so there's been surrounded by greenery. Uh, the team is fantastic. Almost every one year has been around for a long time, um, since I moved to Goa as well. You know, our head of operations started out as just an, um, e-commerce fulfillment associate, and now she's head, she's director of operations. Um, we have very qualified team for design, very sustainability focused as well. Very curious, because we have to keep on our toes to learn what more is happening in the sustainability world.

[00:35:06] So smells still a small team. There's only 12 of us in total, out of which six are in working in the store on the, on the floor. And as we've got a couple of designers, couple of customer service folks, and couple of us in marketing, you know, and I'm, uh, the, I'm leveraging from the janitor to the IT guy, to the vision guy, to the strategy guy. But hey, apu, there's no more toilet paper. I'm like, all right, I'm on it

[00:35:33] Stephen: You're my kind of boss. I kind of like that as well. You get yourself stuck into it, 

[00:35:36] Apurva: Yeah, and I think I'd like to say, I alluded to my first job and the values, which I picked up from there. You know, we've tried to create a culture of work life balance, um, and we just say everything is, everything is life. It's not separate of working life. Um, the reason why you work is to have a good life. So very flexible in terms of hours, in terms of, uh, what each individual needs for appreciation, and from their life, from their work life as well.

[00:36:02] So we try and have individual conversations to say, what is it that makes you feel valued? What is it that you are working for, you know, for somebody it might be education for somebody, it might be a higher pay scale, it might be more vacation time, or be flexible hours. And we try and cater each person's, uh, engagement contract, sort of to do that. We're trying out new tools. We're trying to do a four hour work week for people as well. Learning, failing, learning, learning. So

[00:36:28] Stephen: is that a four hour or four day work week?

[00:36:30] Apurva: uh, sorry, four day work week. I'm trying to do a four hour workday for myself. That's not happening. I'm closer to 40 hours a day right now, but Sure.

[00:36:38] Stephen: But I like that. I, because when you think about it, like, uh, working, like when word gets out of what it's like to work for an organization like yourselves compared to what it's like to work for, you know, a huge, big building where you don't even know who you're making your fabrics for your, your garments for, um, does word of mouth get to the point of where you get lots of people wanting to work for you?

[00:36:55] Apurva: Yeah, we just put our job posting out last week and I think we got a couple of hundred applications. Um, they're very transparent, uh, very, uh, inviting for conversation and engaging as well on our social media channels. Um, so people see that, people see the authenticity of it. Um, and we also not new kids on the block, you know, we've been doing it for over a decade. And so there's, uh, some level of respect for us in the sustainable fashion industry as well.

[00:37:20] So, lot of, uh, interest, But it's also interesting to see what kind of applications we get, you know, so there's some people who just love the sound of working in Goa. They come for that. Uh, go As a go is known to be a beach town and a party town. So we kind of can have to filter it out and say like, okay, we love to have a great life and a good party, but we are actually heads down working as well most of the time as well.

[00:37:42] Stephen: So I'm sitting in like Ireland in the uk. What, how, how can we buy your products? Or is it very easy for us to buy your products?

[00:37:49] Apurva: We are online. We ship, uh, two international countries every week. We offset all our carbon footprint for our shipping as well. We calculate every footprint. We have, uh, tools for that as well, so it's carbon neutral shipping as well. In addition to the 300% carbon offset of making the product, we also do that.

[00:38:07] Unfortunately we can't send you returnable packaging to Ireland, uh, but we do send you fully compostable packaging as well. So there are some limitations. Some countries need, sadly, still need plastic coverage. Uh, for security reasons. The pandemic introduced a few more safety features as well, but from our side, we know that there's no plastic going out as such.

[00:38:27] Um, we're also trying to find local store. Around the world. So if, uh, I know we've had some stores in Oxford, UK before who would stock our products and you could go there, we're always on a lookout. Don't have anybody in Dublin as of now, but if you know of us of, uh, boutique, which is sustainability minded, let us know. We talk to them. 

[00:38:48] Stephen: So let's just bring us back down to the, the, the ones upon a Doug.

[00:38:50] Apurva: So Once Upon a Doug was a project which we started while ago. Uh, sadly it's no longer functioning. The idea was to really get into the communities, the farmer communities that were really suffering, um, and see what we can do on the ground there. You know, like I said before, No Nasties is placed on the consumer side, but because a lot of why I'm doing what I'm doing was started with the farmers, I was really passionate about seeing how we can get engaged with the community there and also the, working with the women in these farming communities who are left behind because of the farmers sites that are happening as well.

[00:39:26] So we reached out to organizations in, um, the inner part of Maharashtra. Maharashtra is the local state where Mumba is, which actually is, um, the, those regions that have the highest number of farmers sites in the country as well. And we wanted to see what was happening there. Uh, luckily, we chanced upon a wonderful women's organization there who was helping set up best practices for farming, uh, sustainable farming, as well as creating self-help groups, creating women empowerment projects as well. And we said, how can we help there?

[00:39:59] And some of their cha their biggest challenges to have sustainable income beyond farming. Farming income is very seasonal and very unreliable as well, especially with cotton farming. And they didn't want to stop farming, so we were, our challenge was to find sustainable secondary income for these women farmers. The solution we came up with was to create a cloud shaped bracelet, which was made by waste material from our factories, which was handmade by the women in their spare time in the evening at home. And then the bracelets was, were distributed back to us. And then we, we were partnering with a college in London, which would then resell it, and that's where moved to the revenue came from. Um, just the uk the international model just allowed us to get a lot more, uh, money back for each bracelet as opposed to selling it in India.

[00:40:52] But the entire ecosystem was created with using waste material. Working with women groups, making a bracelet in their spare time and giving them a regular monthly income, So we regulated it to say that we're gonna make hundred five clouds the shape of the cloud. I'll get back to, to, I'll get to that as well about the symbolism of the cloud as well. Um, but we said you're gonna make five a day. That's 150 a month, you're gonna get 20 rupees for it, and that gives you 3000 rupees at the end of the month reliable income, right? So 3000 rupees in pounds is only 30 pounds. Uh, not, doesn't seem like a big number, but that's significant portion of what they were making there. Um, it was almost for some small scale farmers, and these are tribal farmers where you, to get to their houses, you gotta walk an hour and a half from the nearest bus station and stuff as well. It was almo, it was doubling to tripling their annual income by getting this as well. So you can kind of get a sense of how much their farming revenue is in general as well.

[00:41:49] And it worked beautifully. Uh, we started with 12 women. We went up to 18 women. We had another 40 trained, uh, but external conditions just happened that we couldn't continue the project, we couldn't sustain it, and that was one of the criteria to have sustainable monthly income and that we fulfilled that way to drop the project. Uh, but it worked well enough where the husbands of these farmers as well would start getting. And help with the cr, with, with the making of these things, you know?

[00:42:17] Um, it almost, we heard some beautiful success stories where the family structure almost changed from a very frustrated, uh, household because of financial stress with domestic violence to suddenly the husband helping the women as well, making these products, you know, it become an evening activity for them as well.

[00:42:36] I'm still hoping that we can find a way to continue it, but for now it had to take a backseat with everything else that was going on. Uh, the name itself, uh, and the cloud, the cloud represents everything to the farmers. You know, they live and die by the monsoon over here. The rains over here, especially with cotton farming, um, these areas don't have any irrigation. They're completely rain dependent for that. So the clouds represented not just life and death, but also a sense of freedom, a sense of hope. Uh, everyone dreams when they look at clouds. and we did a workshop with them to say, what, what symbol can we make that best represents what you aspire to have as well? You know? And then we collectively came to the cloud.

[00:43:19] In the local language cloud is called Doug. We changed that and anglicized it to Doug and then personified it, right? So the cloud was called Doug and then it became, the name is Once Upon a Doug. It's a story of clouds, cotton, and communities. We made over 200,000 I think of them. Send them around the world. We see lots of them floating around. All my friends have it. I tie it to my backpack. I have it on my shoes. I shoelaces. One of my friend's, dog has it, still has it as part of his dog collar, so he's really cute. Yeah.

[00:43:54] Stephen: I think we need more, uh, Apus in the world, because I think what's actually happened over the last three years or so when we've had a chance to pause and see what we wanted out of life and talk. Like when we couldn't shop, when we couldn't, you know, buy things or whatever, you know, I, I certainly began to think about the impact I was having on the world by my freedom to be able to walk into any store and buy pretty much what I wanted and come back out and not think about what the, uh, the cost of what, what that is. That's beginning to change. Now. Um, here's a quick question. Do you do shirts in blue?

[00:44:23] Apurva: We have the widest range of, uh, men's clothing in blue and whites and grays, so definitely take a look. Yeah.

[00:44:29] Stephen: Well, well, that's, that's all I need to know because I, I, I think I can't just share, uh, you know, all the wonderful stuff that you're doing without making some sort of contribution to it. So I'm gonna buy some shirts, um, and yeah, I'm going to, and my daughter's also gonna do some stuff. Um, and I think more people need to do this. We need to have a conscious, when we go shopping and think about what's our footprint, not just our footprint, but what's the effect on the people behind the, the product. And I think you're doing this wonderfully.

[00:44:53] Apurva: And I think just making the purchase, talking about it, the indirect impact is significant as well. You know, that's when the larger change will happen.

[00:44:59] Stephen: Yes, it's looking beyond the brand. Just to finish up on, the last thing that I find very important is personal Happiness. And I know one of the things that gives you personal Happiness is ultimate Frisbee, uh, who doesn't like ultimate Frisbee in the world? So are you still playing?

[00:45:15] Apurva: Uh, I retired a couple of years ago. Uh, just grew. I grew much older. I couldn't keep up with the 18 year olds running circles around me, but I played for a long time. Yeah, I played for 22 years. Uh, played for India. Uh, was part of three world championships, two as a player, one as a coach as well. Love it, but I don't think my knees and my ankles want me to play anymore.

[00:45:38] Stephen: I am just sharing that because as, as people who've who've heard me before, know that Frisbee is my f you know, my favorite summer sport. It is, it's absolutely brilliant. I think more people should do it. I love it.

[00:45:49] Apu, thank you so much for spending the well the morning here and evening where you are in the middle of your working day, uh, with us. I love the story that you've shared. What we're gonna do in the show notes is I'm gonna share some links, and how we can actually get our, anybody who's listening can get in contact with No Nasties and buy your products and know a little bit more about what you've, what you're doing. Uh, keep up the great work. Let's keep the light shining for, for all the brilliant stuff that you're doing and transform the world. 

[00:46:12] Apurva: And Steve, thank you for giving us this platform. Like I said, there's a big part of what we do is to create awareness and we need to spread the word. So thank you so much. 

[00:46:20] Stephen: Like I talk about workplace Happiness a lot, but that conversation has just proven that workplace Happiness is beyond just creating a culture where everybody sort of feels kind of nice in work. I talk about this all the time, that's important. We need to create cultures where people feel good about themselves and they do the best work, but a lot of the time as well, we need to understand what's going on through the whole supply chain, what's going on through the process? And Apple talked about this wonderfully, like, you know, going through a life of getting to the point or the pinnacle where everybody thinks that arriving in Silicone Valley and becoming that computer engineer and earning the great salary is the pinnacle of where we want to be. But realizing there was a greater sense of purpose and, and meaning in what he wants to do in, in life. And after reading that article about the, the farmers and the 300,000 suicides in Indian, in Indian farmers, that was, that was every 30 minutes a farmer was taking the life, which is an incredible statistic to look at, to decide that I wanna be able to, to do something bigger, transform the world by creating this company that just looks at sustainability, looks at how it grows, cotton looks at the impact on the farmers and the people that work for it. That was a wonderful conversation. APU is a lovely, lovely human being and we need more of Apus.