Episode 61: Vironika Wilde
Monica: [00:00:00] Well, welcome to the revelation project podcast. I'm Monica Rogers, and this podcast is intended to disrupt the trance of unworthiness and to guide women, to remember and reveal the truth of who we are. We say that life is a revelation project and what gets revealed he gets here.


So hello everyone. and welcome to another episode of the revelation project podcast. I'm so excited to introduce you to Veronica wilde. I saw Veronica's poetry on Facebook and my body immediately went, ah, I have to know who this woman is. So here's what I've learned. Veronica is a poet. She's a spoken word artist. She's an award-winning author, nomad, feminist cat fanatic. And she's also an activist. She's really an incredible writer, but she's also got a book of poems that drew me in and it's called love and Gaslight. It's divided into five chapters and it's barked with one woman's decision to leave an unhappy relationship.


Her choice begins a painful unraveling and poem by poem. She searches for last innocence, an unpalatable truth. Veronica is also a sexual assault survivor. And a lot of what she talks about is the reclamation of her own body. She's an immigrant climbing to the home sized hole in her heart. She's an adult comforting her inner child. She's a woman questioning the social conditioning that governs her freedom. Love and Gaslight is raw. Political and transgressive it's edgy, feminist and relevant. Most importantly, it's honest. Welcome Veronica. I know that you don't yet know a lot about me, but I'm sure my listeners are laughing right now because edgy and feminist and what I, of course always talk about is our  social conditioning.

So I just want to let you know, you are in the right place with me. 


Vironika: [00:02:24] Ahhh I feel it actually


Monica: Good. I'm so, so glad. Well, I'd love to just start by telling you exactly that. I mean, you probably were like, who is this woman that just like sought me out on Facebook and asked me to be on her podcast. But that is actually what happened.

I saw one of your.  Pieces. And I just started like obsessing over you and looking at, you know, all of the various writings that you have out there. And so I just wanted to really welcome you to the show and invite you to talk about whatever comes up. 


Vironika: Wow. Thank you. Yeah. I actually kind of hormonal right now, so there's that, but I have cried now twice.

So this is the second time when you were reading the description of loving gas. All right. So yeah, it really hit me the storyline. It really hit me just because I think as a woman, your healing process comes up for you. Like you can only ignore for so long. So like once a month, when you're on the progesterone part of your cycle, it comes back and it gives you an opportunity to process whatever it is that hasn't been processed.


And if you have the space for it. So I think sometimes we don't have the space for it, or sometimes it's the same thing coming up over and over and over because. I mean when I was stuck in a relationship with my ex, like every time, every two weeks before my period, it was like, you have to leave.


And so now I feel like every period is different and different traumas are coming up. For right now, it's this big, big, full circle where I've made it through a few periods where I've been cleaning out various things. And then now this time, yeah, like there's a seven year relationship that really like begins loving Gaslight and those poems.

And just that period of time, I'm really getting a chance to. You know, heal it in a different way because you can heal your resentment. Like you can get out of that relationship. You can develop self love, but to be able to get close to another person, like it's been two years since I've really been able to like, even like open my heart to a person in a genuine way, you know, I've, hadn't used it, but I mean, this is a whole other conversation.


Like muses is a completely different thing from like having a real intimacy with the person. And so. As I'm like exploring this space where I'm like opening my heart to somebody, all the stuff's coming up and everything that I learned. Now, everything you learned after you escaped a relationship that's really toxic for you.

And something like, you know, got this book here and you're reading the description and looking at this little baby face. This is like a picture of me as a baby looking very cynical. And I'm looking at this baby and I'm like, You're going to be okay. Yeah. You're going to be fine for the first time. 


Monica: [00:05:23] Really I  so get it. I so get it. And there's so much in what you just said. And so I want to circle back and really highlight a couple of things because I've recently discovered that too, about my period. And it's so funny because of course I want to be like, Oh gosh, I'm right here with you. I'm literally like, you know, in my 10 days, days before my period.

And it's so funny because you're absolutely right. And lately I said to my acupuncturist, I was like, This PMs, right? It's just, it's nuts. It's like two weeks before my period. And I want to say to my family, like Ron, you know, like it's just it's. So like I, cause I, one of the things I've really noticed and I love what you just said.


It's like these layers of like unfinished business and that rings so true for me. And I'm sure that you and I have some similarities in terms of just what you just shared. I have this feeling that. Because, you know, I think when it comes to like really doing this work, there is this part of us that really gets the inner child and the necessary work of the inner child in a whole different way, because we really can't.

We really can't get past that. Trauma or past those things that are coming up to be healed without revisiting that place. Yeah. 

Yeah. And so like, my shit that comes up, I think is stuff around intimacy and people seeing me, like really seeing me, in fact, it's so funny and there are no accidents, but I just posted on Instagram yesterday, that true intimacy.

In-to-me-see  is being able to be with all of me, even when it's not sexy. Right. And it's just like, ah, like I hate that side of myself in these, in these like two weeks before my period, because she's unpredictable, she's a little bit skiddish. She's, you know, it's those things where I want, you know, where I'm really noticing like, wow, I really, I really want to be that peaceful, you know, Zen fully collected, organized. Woman that I am in the first two weeks. And in the last two weeks, like you said, it's like your shadow stuff comes up and it's really about loving that to Ooh. And of course, I go back to the Eagle part that card that we pulled with loving that shadow as much as the light. Right. Ah, I swear to God, it's just, you can't make this shit up.

Uh, so I, what I would love to do is actually have you read a piece if you're comfortable? 


Vironika: [00:08:11] Sure. Yeah, I guess we should. So the first chapter, since we got into that, the first chapter is called spark and that begins this journey of me being in this relationship. And. Starting to look around and think, wait a minute, what's going on here? So I was actually reading this chapter yesterday or maybe the day before. So I'm pretty, pretty prepared for what it is that hit me in it. So if I just see my poems in awhile, then sometimes I go back to them like, Whoa, that really, really hit me.

And so. Whenever you do one of those. Okay. How about you choose at that too? That I can read right now. What's called procrastination and pies in our sky. And the other one is called what I've learned. And then in brackets is as a parent. 

Monica: [00:09:05] Uh, okay. What I've learned apparently. 


Vironika: [00:09:11] Yeah, this is the one actually just when I was reading it, I actually said, I actually like, Ooh, out loud, like release something in because I forgot.


What I've written, what I've learned, apparently how to wander a madhouse corridor at Dawn. When the sheets turned to trenches, sleep on the couch, sat. Okay. Keeps the doubts away ice cubes under your eyes reduced signs of crying. What a safe space isn't obsessive cleaning helps avoid facing soul scum. 24 K keeps the doubts away.

How to work in a, in a prison as cook cleaner guard, treasurer and nurse, everything, but warden, where to cache the lists and spirals, when everyone says they can't even imagine him getting angry, look at her eyes. 


Monica: [00:10:07] Yeah. Yeah. Oh, ah, I have chills. So I too was in, you know, a really, really toxic relationship for awhile. And, and th you know, there's so much that I can say about that, but one of the things that really hit me about that particular poem is of course, That what you said about the prison and wandering the corridors, because there's an element of crazy-making to being in a toxic relationship.


And of course I, this is what this poem, you know, as you've read it kind of like stirs in me and all of the ways that, you know, it did in fact feel so like a prison, there was no way out. And there was also the part about. God, it was, he was such a great guy. You know, he's such a great guy, you know, like what are you complaining?

He's such a great guy. You know, it was what was really fascinating for me is that he is like, okay, so there's, there's also a part of me. That's like careful Monica, but this is the revelation project. So here's what I'm going to say. I think that there is certainly a part of me that takes full responsibility.


Now. I don't think I could then for where I was at in my life. And it was like something my partner used to say to me all the time was water seeks its own level. And I'm also, and I'm also an empath. And so one of the things that I really learned from that relationship, if I were to look at the disguised gifts, which took me a long time to see, like, I'm still trying to see them was I learned boundaries. And I learned how to start loving myself. 


Vironika: [00:12:03] Yeah. I gave you poetry sometimes. You're like, what did I learn? I don't learn shit like no wasted seven years. Right. But then you come back to it and you're like, okay. I'm I'm different now. Like, I really understand the value of freedom because, you know, to be honest, when, when I felt like my freedom was infringed upon in that relationship and my immediate response was to try to take freedom away.


And so I think it became this back and forth kind of how much can we, how much can I. Meld this space between us into something that will make me feel more comfortable being myself. And we were both doing that to each other. And at the end of the day, it didn't matter who was doing it first, who was doing it harder, who was like the perpetrator of it all, because it just ended up like reflecting back and forth.


So it's like, am I really angry at him? Or have I really been angry at the version of myself that I became in that relationship? Because I think by the end of it, like, we both. Hated ourselves. And like his self hatred look different than mine. Like it was a lot more volatiles and angry, but like at the end of the day, we still were not happy.


Like we were just creating this terrible thing together. And I remember we actually went to dinner like a few months after we broke up. And we're talking about how, just how much both of us were recreating our childhood traumas and how he was testing me into this role of his mother. And I was casting him into this role of my father.


And we were both like, why did we even stay together for so long? And like, we had a laugh about it. And I mean, we don't really speak now anymore. Like things done a lot more difficult after that to keep communicating. But I mean, I really cherish that moment where we were both like, what. Happened. It's almost like this hook sinks into you like these co-dependent patterns and multi-generational trauma that you're both just along for the ride and it doesn't really matter who it is that wakes up first. It doesn't matter how angry the other person is about coming up and saying, you know, I have to leave because I can't be in this because at the end of the day, as long as somebody says. Okay. We have to stop this storyline. Like this story is not going well and have to stop it. It really takes a certain kind of courage to do that when the other person's like, but I just want to, I want to keep trying, I want to keep fighting and just something inside you says, like, I don't know what we're doing, but it's not love. Like, I'm really not sure what 


Monica: [00:14:39] God, right? Like this is no, not this, you know, like this is not love. Oh my God. I love what you said to 

Veronica about. That story in playing out those childhood traumas. And I think we need to do that until we don't need to do that anymore.


Vironika: [00:15:03] And I think I totally understand. I think that's the really, really heartbreaking thing. I think as long as, as long as I was blaming my father for everything. Then it's almost like I was bound to keep finding people who were. Exactly like him. And then I would see those projections of him and have to deal with those. And as long as I was, um, trying to avoid being my mother, the more I was going to keep getting put into that role, it's like, you know, life just keeps teaching you this thing where it's like, you know, they're just human beings.


Like my parents were so young when they had me like so young, it was barely, barely, even out of 13 years. I mean, we came to Canada, like we're immigrants. My mom had like five jobs, but we first got to this country, like they didn't speak the language. I didn't have any siblings. You know, it was a really difficult time for me, but you know, it was a really difficult time for them too.

And so I think it just comes down to like cutting them some Slack too and being like, yeah, I've got a childhood trauma, but. So today you're for generation and it's like their parents and their parents. Like we come from the former Soviet union. Nobody even had time to be thinking about their childhood traumas.


Like people were just. Trying to get enough grain to make enough bread, to not start, you know, like it was intense, 


Monica: [00:16:30] right. It really, and I love what you're pointing to because you know, there's this way that as we start to find compassion for ourselves, we find it for others too. I remember thinking. Why can I be so kind to everybody else, but not myself.


But when I really looked more closely, there was like always this withholding and it wasn't really, until I went back and saw my parents as human beings, as people who were just doing the best they could. And there's still pieces of that, that sometimes I have trouble with depending on the day or depending on where I'm at my cycle.

But. Um, but, um, you know, again, I think it's just continuing to offer myself that just compassion and certainly being a, becoming a parent myself really also helped me to see no matter what I do, no matter how amazing I am, everybody should always just start a therapy fund for their children.


You know, because we all, we all suffer. It's part of the it's part of the program. I think I was having a conversation recently with somebody that it's I know it's, it's like. Hard to hard to say this, but because it feels invalidating, but it's not intended to it's. My parents had the deficits that I needed to become who I am still becoming.


And you know, that doesn't excuse the trauma, but it does put it into a higher perspective that at least I can breathe into and receive some wisdom around. And then the rest is really a choice for me to keep creating from. And what I love about what you've done here is that you've, you've created from this. I mean, what do you hear when I say a stuff?  


Vironika: [00:18:23] Like I see, I see both sides of it actually. Yeah, definitely. Depending on which part I'm in the cycle, I think. Yeah, because I haven't been in. These different parts of the world through my writing, the first book that I ever published was like a spiritual self-help book.


And it was because I had almost killed myself and then I had this spiritual awakening and like I grew up in, you know, I grew up in Ukraine. Like we weren't. But there were religious people, obviously it wasn't allowed like during the Soviet union times, like people who believed in religion were perceived as mentally ill, because you were supposed to give your heart and mind to the state or to Lenin or whatever.


And so, yeah, I had didn't really have any like religious conditioning. I was really raised to be this like math and science analytical logical. Child, both of my parents were going to medical school when we were in Ukraine. And then when we came to Canada, they were both trying to get their credentials back and, you know, paying for all of the exams.

I think they went like a million dollars into debt at a certain point, trying to take all the English tests. Like it was really intense for them. And so I was just like, when I would see things about spirituality or anything like that, like it was just really turned me off. And so I had to have this like spiritual awakening.


And I only realized that it was called a spiritual awakening because I had come into contact with some, like, non-dualistic, you know, like gone after it will happen. That's what I experienced, you know? And then I started going after the book, like I started, you know, doing some public speaking and going on like podcasts and radio shows and then people would say certain things and I'd be like, that's not what I meant.


And then slowly, like I spent. Like, I think about six years in self-help and slowly feeling really increased. And then I started getting everything. Like even when people would be like, you know, you've been through some hard times, so there's always a positive nugget at the end. Like I just started doing these really visceral, like I just want to throw up reactions coming out of that.

So when I wrote, my second book, the art of talking to yourself, like I knew it was gonna be my last self-help book. And I knew I was going to dive into poetry. I've been writing poetry since I was a kid. And so yeah, when I went on that journey and I put together a loving Gaslight, and then I released those poems. It's interesting.


How our conversation is coming into that story, because at this point I really feel, I feel okay with all the self-help stuff for the first time. Again, like I'm not disgusted by the idea of.finding a golden nugget in a bad experience and not disgusted by like, if I could watch a Tony Robbins video right now, like to be honest with you, I think I could watch like a good 20 minutes of Tony Robbins. Again, like I could back in 2012 and be really inspired by it. I think I just have to go through. My own version of like, identifying like the spiritual bypassing that was going on by my own hands. Like all of the teachers around me, how I was perpetuating it while being in self-help and to be able to process it through Love and Gaslight.


Like, you know, it's interesting because like, in the first chapter, like it's talking about that relationship that I was in, you know, a lot of people when they're writing to me about the book, they're like, yeah, I know what it's like to be in a relationship with somebody who gaslights you. But that actually was a coincidence that, that part of the book relates so well to the title.

Cause originally. The title was based on the words of love and light. Cause I started like these so annoyed when people would end their emails with like love and light after they just spent like that. My God 


Monica: [00:22:11] hashtag blessed, hashtag blessed, hashtag love and prayers, whatever. Right. Like, Oh yeah. 


Vironika: [00:22:18] Like after they'd spend like paragraphs, like invalidating, like a basic human emotion.

They're saying like some of the most offensive, racist things that you've ever heard, they'll be like, by the way, love and light and shut up the things that I've managed to like express in this book. Really curiously brings me back to this place where I can handle a huge dose of positivity now. And I actually have been reconnecting to a male God too.

Like I, you know, have a lot of witchiness and me, you know, I'm exploring my indigenous roots more than ever now, but yeah, I've been like talking to like a real. Male God that I get on my knees. I wouldn't have been able to do any of that. If I didn't through poetry and through my art explore all the aspects of me that were. revolted by these things


Monica: [00:23:14] Totally well, and I love, I love that. You're really, God, it's just so refreshing. Right. Cause you're, you're so willing to talk about the both pieces, right. It's like, cause I can really relate to just in terms of that. Just there was this part of me having gone through this that, you know, was so cynical and resigned and, you know, can really even relate to that reaction.

And I love to that. And to finish that sentence, your reaction about like, you know, wanting to like vomit, you know, if somebody, you know, like it love and light or whatever, that, that whole kind of, there's a way that it just wouldn't land. And I go back to what you said before, which is like, I had to find my own way with it.


And this is why, you know, I love this idea of continually working for myself on like radical self approval, because there's this way that I think. Women to generalize for a moment. There's a way I think that we are. Socialized to give up that part of ourselves that has the right to disagree. That has the right to say, that's not what I meant, you know, that has the right to say, to call something out, you know, like how unbecoming of us, you know, as women, right.


And it's like, Oh my God, that, but like, that's where I can breathe, you know, is when women are actually like talking about that and saying those true things and revealing. That her personal truth gets to be different from mine that, but that it all gets to belong here. So, yeah. 


Vironika: [00:24:54] And not be unattractive for it. No, I think what's really interesting about my story with my ex. Now that I look back at it, it's like he was fiercely anti feminists from the start and his viewpoint was that was that feminists are looking for. They want to be better, you know, and I'm sure you've heard all this before, but it's just like, they want to be in power and they just want revenge and all this stuff.


And I mean, I've heard these viewpoints. It's interesting how they've been recycled, like from like the very beginning of, you know, the. Women just like wanting to right. To vote. There's been people saying like, yeah, but if we give them the right to vote, what's next. They're just going to take over the world.


It's the same kind of narratives that people are spitting about. Like black lives matter now, you know, they're just like, Oh, take a mile. And it's really interesting how the fear based narratives relate to reality in the same way. Like they just don't. Come true. Like the movements end up evolving slowly bit by bit.


People get more and more social justice. Like the world becomes a little bit fair, a little bit more. Even through these changes in policy all the while there's these people running around and being like terrified that these movements are just going to end this world domination by the people who have historically had fewer rights.


And so I think learning to. Stand in my own understanding of what equality and justice means and to not settle for being constantly around. People whose narratives are opposing. That is like a really special kind of self-love because when I met my ex, like I was already, I mean, I've been going to protest since I was in high school, like skipping, skipping class in grade 10 to go protest something that Steven Harper had done and like standing outside of his building, where he was having a meeting with these people.


And we were out there like having vegan meals and like signs and it just so. I mean, I think at the moment, it sounds right to me to be doing that. I'm not really sure how much. All of these demonstrations have achieved because I really, it remix 10 day has this definition of activism. If you have, don't have a history of policy change, you're not an activist.


And so then when you read the part in my bio, that's like says I'm an activist, Idaho. I don't really know if I deserve that title yet. Maybe at some point I'll feel like something that I've been a part of has caused real policy change in the world. I'm really trying, but I think it's been. It's just like such a relief to be able to try and to be able to embody the beliefs that I embody and to be able to go through the full emotional scope of that, because like really.


Connecting to what feminism means to me and how it relates to my culture. You know, back home women's rights are just like a really thick topic for anybody who's from Eastern Europe and from the former Soviet union and the way that that's like transferred over when we immigrated to Canada and the United States.


And then, because there's such a. There's such a culture of like repression. And I think a lot of us have throat tension, vocal tension, you know, like Russian, Ukrainian, immigrant people come over and then become like singers or actors or any of that. Like, there's some real throat chakras with us. There's really like a really deep, deep wound there that is relatable to people from other cultures, but there's like a special, special nuance for it.


And so. I think creating a space where I can recognize that wound. I can recognize how that wound relates to the cultures that. I refer to as like a kid and where I'm from. And then also how that refers to the culture that I'm in. Like, it really, there was a lot of space because some days, I mean, I've had days right.


Woken up and then I've just been crying like all day, like right now, I still, like, I still have those days and I'm doing what I can, but it's like, once you start to care about something, it really hits you. And like, when I was writing and gas, like there were just, yeah, there was this really intense moments where I was just like really angry and I was angry for myself.


I was angry in public. And then I would just like, see. These like small little ways that you'd have a man and a woman interacting. And then you just like, see the hurt in the woman's eyes. So like something that he was doing, that he had no idea he was doing, you know, like these little moments where like no idea what he just said, like no clue.


And you see the hurt in her eyes, you know that her, and she's not looking around to see if everybody will make eye contact with her. She's not looking for anybody's sympathy or empathy, except for his, and he's not giving it and starting to see those moments in public and starting to see women going through that.


Like it's so intense. And so, you know, if you're around like parents or a partner or a sibling or a friend who's. Always, well, I don't know why you subscribed to all that feminism stuff. Like they just want more rights. Like it actually prevents you from making your own decisions and going on your own journey and seeing what it is that does draw you to like a certain movement, what it is that does draw you to like identifying the parts of yourself that reflect the parts of society that have not been recognized.


So I think that's where poetry has come in for me really like. Exploring that well, 


Monica: [00:30:35] yeah. Cause that's exactly what was coming up for me as I was listening is like, yeah, there's, there's really, when that self inquiry really starts, when you're allowing yourself to really get honest with those inquiries with yourself, it, your poetry comes up as like a call-in response. Call to yourself and then a response to yourself. And if it's okay. I w I wanted to read one that I really love is called note to self number 11. Yeah. 


Vironika: [00:31:05] Notice that it's on page 121, which is actually 11 times 11. I'm a big numbers geek. So, 


Monica: [00:31:11] Oh my God. I love that. Okay. Well, if you're a big numbers geek, then today in the next 10 days are like big number days, just just saying, okay.


So here's the thing. Poem. Note to self number 11, stop gorging on rejection. Stop taking the doubt they break you with and using it to break yourself. Let people's reactions represent them. Not you. Shine. I love that so much. And by the way, I saw that it obviously resonates with a lot of women out there because it got shared.

I think I got, when I saw it, I think it had already been shared like 600 and something times. 


Vironika: [00:31:55] Yeah. I actually, I was surprised by that because I went on a writing residency on November 30th and I had gotten to the point where. My Facebook page had been hovering around like 15,000 for a bit. And Facebook had changed their algorithm and I was like, well, I'm going on this writing residency anyway, why check my social media?

So curiously enough, as soon as I got on the ferry to go to this Island to go on this, like writing residency. Cause that was the day that that post just exploded. And I didn't notice for about four weeks, 


Monica: [00:32:33] which is always such a nice thing when you go back and you're like, Holy shit. 


Vironika: [00:32:37] That was so strange because I had like, literally the day before I've been like, you know what?

And I can't even put forth the effort right now to go look at my Facebook comments. I'm just going to focus on what it is I'm doing and the moments that I'm like. I'm not even going to go do this. Then all this stuff comes. And I remember just looking at the notification and it was that no, and you know, all those notes are super special because as I say, at the end of the book, there's like 10 bonus ones at the end of the book. And as I'm sharing those bonus ones, I say, these are all real notes. None of these were. Really intended with this. Like, I'm going to show it to people.


I sometimes I'd write it down just to say something to myself. And then even a day later, I'd be like, well, I should supposed to social media. Cause that's nice. But some of them were never supposed to see the light of day. Like they were just for me to be like, remember this 


Monica: [00:33:43] well and what that really, you know, reveals to me is that oftentimes it's these it.

Is these deeper kind of thoughts and things that we think need to be hidden that actually are the most resonant for others when we dare to share them. Where they really do see, or other people can really see themselves in it and have their own revelation around it. It's like that daring to share some of those things that just come right from our hearts.

It's like that insight, you know, this momentary insight. And I don't think enough of us have really stopped to write them down, but, you know, we have them all the time. We notice them in that heartbeat of a moment and. I think that those are, you know, God winks. Those are the moments where we're kind of in touch with our most with, with that deeper truth of what we're noticing.


And in this one, you know, I really always talk about. You know, you can't sustain yourself off of the crumbs people give you, you know, if somebody is, if somebody is not really loving you in a way that you are just, I remember, you know, thinking that love was these little crumbs that I could sustain myself on for weeks months.


And you know, and almost when you do get to the place where you can receive the kind of love some people can give you. Sometimes that's what I noticed in those two weeks before my cycle starts again, is I think what comes up for me is sometimes the trauma of receiving that much love, because I've created now a family and a life in which I am well loved.


And there's part of me that just my nervous system can't deal with sometimes, you know, it's, it's fascinating, right? 


Vironika: [00:35:42] And there's a part that wants to push it away. Like, actually this is actually like kind of embarrassing to say, but it's like one of my most recent revelations, which I'm happy to. I'm happy to share because yeah, I think at some point it'll be easier to share, but this feels embarrassing for me right now.


But what I've just realized is that, you know, there's, there's a way to be, there's a way to be loved physically. There's a way to be loved emotionally. And when somebody is creating an emotional space for you, that's a lot of work. And when somebody is creating a physical space for you, then that's a lot of work.


And so what I've realized I do when, especially when I'm on a certain part of my cycle, is that if somebody is creating a space for me and it's going well, but they're giving me like, Like a, like a physical space where they're just like, you know, like hugging me and like, it feels good. And I feel like my body's not going all over the place.


Then I'll start trying to take an emotional space too. And that puts so much pressure on the person that's supporting me. Because like, even if you, if you were to pay somebody to do that job, you know, you've got your massage therapist and reflexologists and foot massaging people, right. And then you've got like your therapist and your life coaches and your emotional support systems, who is.


Who's going to like cuddle you and listen to all your problems. Like not react to the things that you're saying. Like there's, there's not even like a job category for that, cause it's a lot.. And so what I've realized that I do sometimes, like, is that coming out of this place, feeling worthy. If I start receiving the thing that I need.


Then I'll like increase the demand on that person in the moment where I'm like, well, I also need this and I also need this. And I also need that until the point that it gets difficult for that person. And they have like the slightest reaction and then that reaction begins this cycle of retraumatization. And so. For so long. 


Monica: [00:37:41] Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I'm I? Yes. Okay. Yeah. Go finish. Cause now I'm like, Oh yeah. And I, and I have something I want to say, but yeah, go tell me more for so 


Vironika: [00:37:52] long. I was just like feeling sorry for myself. Like, Oh, why do I like always get retraumatized? And you know, like after this. Happened. Like last time, like I, I phoned a friend and was like so angry.

Right. I was just like fencing all of this anger. And, you know, she was just holding this like beautiful space for me. Like, thank God for friends, like friends, so that you don't end up yelling at your partners. And, you know, after I was kind of like vented it all out and like, we had kind of talked about it, then she was like, you know, This is like, you're doing well, you know, like this, like, what else are you going to do?


Like, there's a lot of stuff in there and what are you going to do if you just try to empty it as gracefully as you can, it fills up. And there's all this stuff that comes up from the past. There's always stuff that comes up from the present. And then you're just like full of all this AP stuff. It's just a question of how you're going to, yeah.


And it really made me realize how toxic. The ways that I've been emptying, it has been because I had the emptying in a way that almost assured that I would be retraumatized and then would feel sorry for myself constantly being retraumatized. So I'm at this point in my life, I'm like no way. I actually don't want to be retraumatized anymore.

I'm not interested. Yeah.


Monica: [00:39:09] I just said was so rich Veronica and there are a couple of things that come up for me as I hear it. And one is, I think that as. I think people who have been traumatized there is kind of a period of time where the emotional dumping with anybody who will listen and you, you know, it's like great noticing that you may be, whether it's it's that noticing how needy you are for that love and attention and feeling seen and heard, and like, give me all the things right.


That I never had. And really it's, it's so mortifying, like what you're talking about when you realize that you're doing that to the point where then you retraumatize yourself and you go into like a shame spiral and that's where that self-love comes back in where I think, and I think that's what you're pointing to where you just start noticing, like, you know, the most loving thing that I could do for myself in this moment is to just.


You know, offer myself some compassion, see that I was emotionally dumping on this person. That's creating space for me, but there's also this other side of it that. I have, and yes, thank God for my female friends, because one of the things that was really missing in my life were strong, feminine role models who knew how to hold space and also had great boundaries and that the boundaries weren't there to shame me.


The boundaries were there to help me trust myself. And that is what good role models. As women do, that's what we do for each other. We don't try to fix each other. We hold space. We don't take on each other's stuff because that would be codependency. And what we do is say, I trust you to be creative, resourceful, and whole, and you've got this.

Like you've got this, like you can hold this. And cause I remember kind of finding myself with my business partner who was just an incredible like wise woman and I knew that she was there to help me, but she also had to be there. At her own pace. And she had to also find her edges where she was like, you know what, no, Monica, like, this is, this is for you to now go be with, and you've got this and trust yourself.


It's like, I almost needed both of those things. I needed that space, that safe place to kind of explore and dumb. And, but then it was like, I started noticing that she would really kind of create these healthy boundaries with me. And that started teaching me like, Okay. Yeah, I do have this and I can't emotionally dump all the time, you know, and I do have the ability to be with the difficult emotions without needing somebody else to see me in it.


I have to start seeing myself in it. I have to start offering myself compassion and there's that reparenting I think that comes in because I think as traumatized children, we just don't. We don't even see what we don't eat. We don't see what we don't see because we never had it. 


Vironika: [00:42:23] That's so nice that you found just like another woman to be able to hold that with you.

Like that's what me and my friend were saying at the end of our conversation, she was like, you know, this is the world changing right now, just through this conversation because there's so there's so much opportunity for women to be competitive with each other, to be jealous. Close our hearts and to feel like, Oh, well, if she has something, then that means that I have less. And if she's getting a certain amount of attention, then that means that there's less for me. And, you know, not really connecting to each other in this way. And I really started to see. What a resource. It was to have women in my life who were on similar journeys, who were like, who had been through all this spiritual stuff, but who had also been through the rage and the sadness who had weed is legal in Canada now.


And it's been legal for awhile. And so I'm almost like connecting to other people. When we became legal, we're like, Oh my God, we started smoking weed every day. And then got to a point where it's like, Whoa, this is for my mental health. And like, um, I haven't, so it's been a while now. And I'm not saying I never will, but I'm just saying there's a sacredness to every single kind of medicine.


And there's, there was something about the government legalizing weed became like cigarettes and the sacredness had been lost. Like there's a lot of movement in indigenous communities to keep tobacco sacred because it's not sacred at all at this point, like just being bound up into cigarettes that people can take like really quickly.


And so what I'm finding really interesting about the women that I'm connecting to right now is women who have done. Who has been looking for sacredness and things that have just been, I mean, bastardized okay. Original meaning. And now we're all trying to come back to something deeper and then these things are setting off because I think when you go searching for truth, you end up in really similar places.


So what you've been in before, like when you end up on the path of real intimacy with the person, you end up setting off all the triggers for all of your traumas. And sometimes it just feels like this person is exactly the same as people have been in the past. And like, why am I here recreating this stupid thing that I've been recreating?


And then you step away a bit and you're like, well, those are. Those are my stories. And it's hard because when I was like stuck in this seven year relationship, that really wasn't good for me. I would go through this same process and be like, Oh my gosh. I'm like recreating my childhood trauma with this person that would take a step away.


And I'd be like, well, we can always try harder. You know, it's like 75% of the process is the same. And then there's like this little, last bit at the end, when you get some perspective and like, what are you going to do about it? And having like other women to be able to sound off with about that and to talk about what it is that we're going through.


And it's actually like how our cycles relate to it. I think that's essential because otherwise you're just running around in circles. And I think to have the hormones that we have. And to be interacting with those hormones in a certain way. And anybody who's like putting, like either born with those hormones or putting them into their body, like those hormones do something to you, you know, like when people go vegan, they get together with other vegans because it feels a certain way.


So then it's like, if we're going to be like all estrogen up, like I think we have to. We really have to take time to process what it means to be a being who is either like biologically or by choice carrying estrogen and like what that does to your brain and what that does to your body and what that does to your relationships with others and expecting the people in our lives.

We're not caring that much of it. So understand it's just. It's a recipe for failure, actually. 


Monica: [00:46:22] Certainly it does bring up to me like that. Like this is a cosmic joke, kind of cynical, you know, way of sometimes seeing how opposite, you know, we can be as men and women, you know, if we're kind of put, put ourselves in kind of that gender for a moment.


But the other thing that I really am starting to recognize is that we've also been socialized in this way. I mean, I was talking about them. The man box culture yesterday. And really I have a son and I have a daughter and, you know, we, we nobody's benefiting of course from the patriarchy and we have that system, the world over for sure.


But it's like, Men are not benefiting from it either. You know, they're emotionally stunted. They don't, you know, they're not in touch with their feminine side. You know, I loved that. You were saying earlier that you find yourself, you know, kneeling to, you know, a male got as well, and I'm making up that there's also for you.


Room in there for the goddess, but it's this idea of really kind of, I think recognizing that balance of both of those things and honoring both of those energies inside of myself. And certainly I'm finding that as I reveal and heal that I'm finding just like you said, that I'm being. That there's this synergistic way that I'm finding just the right people at just the right time.

And I'm able to, as I kind of am able to be with myself in a different way, I'm able to be with, with others in a much more expansive. Way. And I do think that I'm seeing a lot of women who are creating new contexts for how to be together. And I think that that's an important distinction because for us women, to be able to say like, I'm not going to do that competitive thing, I'm not gonna engage in gossip with about other women.


I'm not gonna. You know, I'm not subscribing to this way of being that there are enough women out here now who are really doing the work and able to really see that they can trust this new way of being together and that right. I mean, I really am seeing it. I'm really, really seeing it. And the truth is we're always going to find people to betray us the difference when you've done the work is that.


I trust myself to recover. It's not about trusting other people necessarily. It's about trusting myself that I'm going to recover, that betrayal can show up. But one of the things I learned from this wise woman is that our relationship similar to a piece of pottery that you fill with gold only get stronger when we dare to recover now.


That's different than being in a toxic relationship. But if you just have an emotional breakdown with somebody and you guys offend each other and you know, you both come back to it with open hearts and say, you know, God, I fucked up. I'm so sorry. You know, like here's what was going on for me. And you invite that same thing and forgive each other, the relationship becomes stronger and I'm finding I can do that with women in a way I never could before.

And I think it's because I trust myself to do 


Vironika: [00:49:38] And it's so interesting. Like what you said. It's not the toxic relationship. Cause that's, that's, what's been coming up for me, like in, in friendships and relationships, everything, you know, that when it would get to this point of something's gone. A slight bit wrong.


Like I would just get triggered and think, Oh, this is exactly like the other thing. And I would go running and I've had a bunch of moments, like in the past, actually just like in the past two months, to be honest, I think people get kind of emotional about around the holidays that they come back and apologize to people, but where.


I've set a boundary with somebody that like, who really didn't understand what it was that I would say, like, there's something about coming out about being sexually assaulted that really shows people's true colors, the way that people react to you. And so, you know, I said a lot about boundaries. Around that time and continue to set a lot of boundaries and to be like, well, this doesn't work for me.


It doesn't work for me. How this person responded to me with some people I'm going to take time to be really honest about that. And with some other people, like I'm just going to block them because I never knew this person well enough anyway. And it's too much just emotional expenditure on my part. And, you know, I've had somebody who actually considered a really good friend come back and be like, Whoa, you know, I'm sorry.


I mean, like she came back and she was like, Hey, I've actually been sober for the first time, like forever. And I've been thinking about that conversation. We had, like, I dunno, it was like six months ago and she was like, it's finally hitting me and I hope you can forgive me. And really for the first little while it really triggered my ex and me, you know, the morning after, when he's apologizing and. Time after time, year after year thinking it's going to stop, but then like constantly the buildup, the explosion and the apology. And I had to be like, well, This is the first time that's happening, right. In any relationship and to go through that. And I've just been assuming that if somebody, you know, screws up and then they apologize, then Oh, here we go again.

It's going to be this cycle of screwing up and apologizing and screwing up and apologizing. And then I really had to stop and be like, what am I waiting for? I've been so solitary and I am expecting to find friends and lovers who never, ever, ever fuck up. Like, is that, is that realistic? 


Monica: [00:52:13] No, it's not 


Vironika: [00:52:18] conflict with somebody with a friend or somebody that you're intimate with, man.

Like right now I'm just. I'm having all of those trauma triggers come up in these situations, like all of them. And so I think, although it's really painful, it gives me an opportunity to be like, babe, like you feel the same way about this tiny thing as you did about this other obviously really intense, bad thing seven years ago.


Are they the same, those, your reaction matched the situation. And if not, then do you really need to pack your bag right now? Because that's where my mind goes.


Well, relationships are. Maybe what I was doing in that relationship was not actually wrong. Like that's really what I'm facing right now. So the whole thing is like trying to look at all the different perspectives of it and forgiving and be willing to give the person another chance. I don't want to learn that lesson.

That that's the wrong thing to do because at the end of the day, I think I was doing the right thing. I was just doing it with the wrong person. 


Monica: [00:53:32] There's a really important distinction. And, you know, I think we also get what we tolerate and when we get to that place where we really do understand self-love, I think there's a difference between kind of like being in the mess of our human experience and screwing up with each other and knowing the difference between a sincere apology and like, Seeing different behavior versus somebody who just continues to do the same thing without.


Without really making any change. So if I'm seeing a pattern with somebody, you know, and it's the same thing over and over again, then I know, you know what, this doesn't work for me. And it's more in the realm of like, it doesn't work for me versus I'm not worthy or I'm not lovable or I'm not valuable.


It's like, you know what, no, that doesn't work for me. It doesn't fit my values and it doesn't work for our relationship. And so therefore I'm moving on and it doesn't matter to me if it's a friendship or if it's a lover or, but, you know, it's like, yeah, we get to screw up with each other. But like, if it happens repeatedly, I'm probably going to be like, you know what?


I'm going to love you from afar because I may still love that person. But it's kind of like that idea of putting that boundary in place that really protects my light. I always go back to that metaphor that Rob bell, I love Rob bell, he uses. And he talks about, you know, like when you put your hand in front of the birthday cake, the candles, that's kind of like what we need to think, how we need to think about boundaries.


It's like, you don't want anybody else to blow out that inner light. And I've got a PR, I've got a responsibility to protect that inner light inside of me. And so when I find that somebody out there is like repeatedly blowing that out in me, that's just like my that's on me. Now to like put the boundary in place and be like, love you.


Bless you, see you later, you know? And then it's like, Oh, I can breathe and get to, it's not that we're, we're not going to grieve because that shit is hurtful. But my God it's. So it's such a revelation to learn that I don't have to stay in it forever and keep. You know, it's like the definition of crazy-making, you know, is like to keep doing the same thing over and over and accept and expect that different result.


It just, but it takes those of us. Who've been traumatized a real long time to figure that out. 


Vironika: [00:55:58] Yeah. And I think also seeing the difference between, you know, somebody who's just blowing around and then they happen to put your candles out as opposed to somebody who's got. Just got some kind of weird thing about birthday cakes and like childhood trauma, but they're literally like coming right over to you right in the eyes and blowing out those candles right in front of you.


Like there's things that. I think when that happens, what I really see now, and this is one of those things that I was like, wow, this is really embarrassing to say out loud, but the more that I'm saying, these things with you right now, the more I'm realizing, I'm not the only one that goes to these things.


And so I think it's really important to be able to acknowledge them. I think what happens when somebody recreates a trauma with you treats you the same way that your father or mother treated you, you know, yells at you for the first time. Like, I think something sets off within the victim of that situation.


Who's like, Oh shit, this can happen. And then in so many ways you want to know when it happens. You want to know that it's not just going to happen to you. You want to be able to see. What it is, that's going to be able to bring that thing out. So it begins this like really weird dance where I think I would see the warning signs of something incoming.


Like I would see that he was like repressing his emotions, starting to get angry more. He was like, stop making eye contact for days at a time. And I would see that. And then when I looked back at my behaviors, You know, I would start like nagging him about things and I would start pushing on certain things that I knew, like were things to push on.


So it's like when he would start going into this part of his part of the cycle, I would be like, I would want to be in control of any part of it, because I'm like, this is happening to me now. Like I know what's coming. I know that somewhere in like three to 10 days, I'm going to get yelled at. I know that.


So how can I. Take control of it as much as possible. And that's not saying that I'm like blaming myself for bringing it on because to be honest, I think it would have happened anyway because it was happening anyway. But as time went on, I became this like participant in it where like, I would try to. Be like, okay.


Like if I push on this spot or I push on this spot, is that when it comes up in this situation or this situation at the very end of the day, it would always be, my fault was like set it off and it wasn't. But at the same time, I think it's really interesting how, when we're recreating a childhood trauma, there's this really natural desire to take back control because.


In that trauma, we were lacking control, but then when we recreate it with a person who's like not being conscious of what it is, that's happening, we're constantly re-traumatizing. And then also, because we're trying to take back this control, it gives the person like this outlet to be able to be like, it's your fault though.


And then they show this long list of our behaviors that have led to it. And then we're like, well, shit, I did do that. So it must be my fault and it all starts all over again. I think being willing to look at those patterns and be like, this is actually what I can not tolerate from people because it's starts this.


God knows what it is. Like. It's just like this weird dance where your trauma is trying to heal itself, but there's not a safe space. So you're constantly just. Coming out from underground being like, is it time yet? And they're getting like bashed over the head with a hammer and it's no time yet. Gosh, over that, it's like, no, you can never just like smell the air.


You can never come above the ground because there's coming out of the wrong bowl. Like that's just not the place. 


Monica: [00:59:43] Well, I, yeah, I go back to that expression, you know, water seeks its own level. And so there's that way that we're going to attract the people that we need either in order to see it in order to kind of maybe, you know, a triggering example, but it is. Inauguration day to day, but the same way, kind of all this stuff was here already. This racism, this sexism, this, all this was already here. And Trump basically comes in and kind of like a big magnet kind of pulls it all to the surface. So I always say like, what gets revealed gets healed. And sometimes in a relationship, we kind of need to see it.


We have we kind of need to reveal it all before we can heal it. And then of course you can't heal it. All all at once. And so there comes that self-compassion and having it modeled is hard for us women to find, because if I were to look at the root of what I see in the world, it's women are entranced in unworthiness.


They don't know how to love themselves. And it's. Through this creative process of what you're doing, of what I'm doing, of what so many women are doing that we're starting to model. This is what it looks like, and it's messy and it's not linear and it's cyclical or whatever it is. Right. But we're modeling it and we're revealing what it looks like so that other women can now be like, you know what?


It doesn't look the way I think it should look. And these women are. Are talking about that, you know, their own messy experiences with healing. And so I think that this is the only way that, that we really get to see the real deal is by daring to share the things that most people in this society might consider embarrassing and shameful.


And I want to create a new narrative around that, that there is no shame that it's it, that it's actually the vulnerability and the sharing that's going to create the healing. 


So what you were saying actually made me think of a column two lined up. I was just going to say, I was just going to invite you to share like one last poem and the, and what I want to say before you read this poem, Veronica is, and I'm holding my hands to my heart because this conversation has been like, just so rich and so rewarding.


And I don't know, like, I just feel I could talk to you forever and there's so much here. So I first, I want to say, you know, just thank you. Thank you for being a yes. Thank you for just writing from this place inside of yourself and thank you for daring to share things that you know, other women can really, I'm hoping to see themselves in.


Yeah. Just keep, keep going, keep doing what you're doing. It's just so amazing. So yes. Please read another poem. 


Vironika: [01:02:29] It's this funny, but this is the last one because it's like between these two for me, but yeah. I'm really feeling that I'm really feeling this one, this one's called healing looks different every day.


Last week I wrote letters to the people who made it worse. Eight days ago, one called and apologize. Seven days ago, I stopped the leaving six days ago and let someone hold me for the first time. In months, five days ago, I shaved my head and felt beautiful. Again, four days ago at the airport, I looked men in the eyes with no fear.


Three days ago, I kneeled in the grass, ate a red pepper and believed again, two days ago, I wrote forgiveness letters, inhale sleep yesterday. I'm waiting test results. I imagine dying felt relief. Last night I exhale gave up on believing today. I woke up stretching my heart to fit all this new bliss a few hours ago. I didn't just believe I knew tomorrow. I might write a forgiveness letter to myself. 


Monica: [01:03:38] Mm. That one hits me. Oh my gosh. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, okay. So to our listeners, so, uh, okay. Where can they find you for Vironika? 


Vironika: [01:03:56] Um, so, um, it's actually not my real name. That's 


Monica: [01:04:03] okay. I'm inspired to be now. I'm inspired to be Monica wild. How about that?


Vironika: [01:04:11] So that's a big, long story that I actually realized I should write a blog post about it because I wrote a eulogy Veronica Wilde on my actual website. V I R O N I K A. If you just put in that first name, I'm the one that comes up. Like I've been Veronica, Veronica, I've got three books out. So the first two are under Veronica.


This one's under Veronica wild. And so, um, all my social media right now is under Veronica wild. So yeah, I just felt very weird, like V I R O and Ika. Yeah, so I'm on. Instagram. I feel pretty cozy on my Instagram right now. I'm on Facebook. I've got Pinterest. My Pinterest has been blowing up lately. I'm not even sure how to use it.


So I was getting all this traffic on Twitter. So yeah, if you just search for Berlin. So this book, this latest book is called love and Gaslight is a picture of a baby on the print. Kind of looks like a matchbox. Yeah. Check out the book. Um, connects with me on social media and yeah, let me know what you think.


Monica: [01:05:19] All right. Awesome. Well, and to our listeners, I'll be sure to put all of Veronica's links in the show notes and yeah, the book is so great. So definitely get the book and until next time, Veronica. More to be revealed. 


Vironika: [01:05:37] Thanks for having you on Monica. 


Monica: [01:05:39] You bet.

We hope you enjoyed this episode. For more information, please visit us@jointherevelation.com and be sure to download our free gift, subscribe to our mailing list or leave us a review on iTunes. We thank you for your generous listening and as always more to be revealed. .