181 Libby Bunten: Divesting from Patriarchy === Monica: Welcome to the Revelation Project Podcast. I'm Monica Rogers, and this podcast is intended to disrupt the trance of unworthiness and to guide women to remember and reveal the truth of who we are. We say that life is a Revelation Project and what gets revealed gets healed. Hello, everyone. This is a Precious bonus episode with Libby Bunton, one of my favorite people in the whole world and somebody that I co lead the Unbecoming Sisterhood Circles with. Monica: If you haven't yet met Libby, you're in for a treat. I just adore her and she is suss. Such a wealth of wisdom, and she is an incredible embodiment coach. We're going to invite you to join us for our deep journey this fall into the embodied feminine, where we will be disrupting the trance of unworthiness. Monica: And deprogramming from good girl behavior and divesting from patriarchy. These programs are really designed to meet you wherever you are. And if you're a woman who has been interested in joining a sisterhood circle. This may be the perfect one, but in this episode, we also share some tender and vulnerable personal stories. Monica: So I think you're going to really, really enjoy this episode. And if you haven't had a chance to listen to our first episode on this subject, it is called unbecoming and we aired it last September, and it is still incredibly relevant for the work that we do inside of our sisterhood circles. So. Please join us for the episode where you'll not only learn more, but you'll hear more from Libby about her own experience of unbecoming as well as some personal stories from yours truly. Monica: Also, if you haven't yet joined the giveaway, please do. You'll be able to find the link in the show notes after this episode, and you just follow that link and get yourself on the giveaway. Emailing list, because you will get a chance to win curated gifts each month from authors and artisans who are participating in this spirit of generosity and reciprocity. Monica: And we really are inviting. All of you, when I say we, I mean, my whole team who is so committed to just each and every podcast episode and returning the love that you give us every week when you so generously listen to each of these podcast episodes. So not only are these gifts from authors that we've had on the show. Monica: But we've also had a tremendous amount of response from other gifted, talented makers and artisans who wish to participate. So you never know what you're going to win. So please, please join us for the giveaway. Monica: Hello, dear listener. And welcome to another episode of the Revelation Project podcast. I'm Monica Rogers, your host, hostess, and I'm with Libby Buntin today, bringing her back on. Hi, Libby. Hi, Libby: Mon. Yay. So excited. Monica: So great to have you. And of course, because I always have the pleasure of catching up with you. Monica: I want to just, let's start with like, what's your most recent revelation of late? Cause I know you have a few. Libby: I do have, I have quite a few, I brag. It's been a rugged summer of And I would say one of the big things from the macro is My grandfather died recently, my mother's father, and the big perspective I've gotten from that is the importance of stories and all the stories that left with him specifically about my mother. Libby: So that's one thing that's really like top of mind for me, which is why I don't take being on a podcast lightly. It's so important that we share stories and we respect stories and we make our stories. belong. So there's that. And then also just working through a lot of grief. And interestingly, that has actually shown me more of my gifts and my skills, my ability to orchestrate effortlessly when I'm invited into spaces, my ability to see. Libby: People and have them feel seen by me and kind of get shit done in a way that isn't like grindy. It's just kind of a gift. So those are a few things. Monica: I love these so much. I want to go back to what you said about storytelling, because of course our episode today is really centered around this conversation of unbecoming and divesting from patriarchy. Monica: And you and I talk a whole lot about the storytelling or the spellcasting that a lot of women have fallen under after thousands of years of being spoon fed these stories. And actually even beginning with. Fairy tales. I mean, we can go right back to the very beginning of all of our girlhoods. And I was actually thinking about this earlier today, but I was listening to an episode that I did with Judith Berger. Monica: And she was talking about this. She was talking about the misogyny in fairy tales. And I hadn't even really thought of it that way before, but what I was thinking about was, yeah, it was reminding me of all of the fairy tales when I was little, where I started recognizing that all the roles of women were either these. Monica: Princesses, but again, there were these choices that were very limiting. There was like the princess, the stepmother, the witch. I mean, if, if you've got more name than I know that they've definitely upped their game in the fairy tale realm, Libby: the damsel in Monica: distress. Oh, the damsel in distress. These are also archetype. Monica: But it, it's really been fascinating and so much of the work that you and I are up to when it comes to unbecoming is going into these unconscious places, let me call them, and. Starting to remember, I love this idea of the unconscious as actually being, you could also call the unconscious the shadow work. Monica: You could also call it the descent of a Nana. You could also that the unconscious itself is So available to us, even for remembering stuff like past lives, if you believe in stuff like that, but that it's all right here and all we have to do is, if we're lucky, be guided into exploration of these unconscious parts of ourselves. Monica: Yeah. So I just wanted to know what. What you think of what I'm saying and I mean, Libby: it's all so interesting to me the whole idea of the groundwork or like the training ground that we don't even know that we're on when we're or getting indoctrinated into when we're little and We're such a forward motion culture in this like grind culture. Libby: We're such a like a fast pace culture and this type of thing requires slowing down this type of access to what you're talking about in my experience required me to slow down, but everything in my training when I say training, I mean patriarchal conditioning said. It's actually not safe for you to slow down because your value is tied to your productivity. Libby: Who's going to get it done? If you want something done right, do it yourself. And then there was sort of this like somatic fear of I'm going to have to listen to myself if I slow down. So it required first some slowing down for me to be able to access that stuff. But. Man, is it real all this stuff that you're saying that we get just spoon fed as you said about it's like we don't even realize it's like a cult, you know, I mean, it culture is a cult, but it's this whole it's in the air we breathe we say this all the time it's this whole like systematic programming of roles and you're either this or that like binary roles for women you're either the witch or the princess or. Libby: The damsel in distress or the whatever it is the saint and it just when you start to unpack it and you see how it's actually impacted you it's like you can't unsee that and to try to unsee it is actually more painful than going toward it but it did require for me a lot of slowing down to even realize what I had been adopting as my own. Libby: Unconsciously, because it was the only option or the only options that were presented to me. Does that make sense? Yeah, Monica: I love that Libby. It does. And I also want to kind of circle back and bring your grandfather in here and your recent loss because what I was actually hearing you say. One of your revelations is there's this way that you can be with grief now. Monica: There's this way that you can be with loss, that you can be with yourself in your loss, in your grief, in all of these emotions that wasn't available to you when you were running. And by the way, I'm so sorry about your grandfather, you know, and I wanna, what was his name? Libby. His name was David. David. Monica: Okay. I love also this piece of it because when we do this work, a lot of these explorations kind of bring us back in time before we kind of go forward. So I want to get curious about your patrilineal line and kind of Start threading this conversation with how some of this work shows up in our lives, because I think that we can talk about unbecoming and divesting all day long. Monica: Yeah, but if we don't kind of do some of the storytelling around it with our own personal stories, I think it's just lives out here. I don't really know what they're talking Libby: about, right? It's all intellectualized and not really able to land. When we don't, that's part of why you and I just like as a side note, like love group work, whether we're participants in the group or we're facilitating it is because that's how we actually, in my experience, connect the dots is I call it an embodied experience. Libby: It's like we have this intellectual idea and understanding of something maybe through. Therapy or books we've read or whatever, but when we hear it in the context of someone's story, it actually lands in our body differently and we can really embody the truth of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Monica: So David, Libby: David, David T. Libby: Williams, Monica: David T. Williams recently passed. Tell me more about David T. Oh, David Libby: T was a coal miner. Very controversial industry, and he was a coal miner from the middle of nowhere, West Virginia, and he was really sweet as pie from my perspective, but there was a lot of, I guess you could say, family lore about how he was before my grandmother left him and moved away from West Virginia with their three little children that they had had together. Libby: So, you know, it's interesting when you started. Going down this road, you were like, okay, let's talk about your patrilineal story. The first thing that came to me was how everyone had been divorced and remarried. So I had four grandmothers and four grandfathers, but including my own father. The men were actually pretty unavailable. Libby: Almost all of them. Now, you know, I know this is not unique. Okay. I'm just saying that it's not unique, but actually physically unavailable in the sense that they went away to work or they lived. You know, he lived in the middle of nowhere and I grew up in Maine. So access to him was really difficult. So that's just really coming to me right now is like how unavailable that relationship was. Libby: And it's making me have a little sensation in my body right now, like making me emotional about that. Because I do think as he aged, he became more of a like divine masculine energy. But just so tender, and I'm realizing how much I wish I'd had more of that with him. Yeah, Monica: yeah, I, I'm resonating with what you're saying about wishing you had more time. Monica: Yeah. Because our men, the men in our lives, at least I'll speak from my own experience. I lost my father when I was barely 21. Hmm. I think I was, yeah, it was September before my December 21st birthday. And at that point you haven't been out of the house for that long. And I was just so. Immersed in my own life. Monica: And of course it was just a really hard time in general for the entire family because he was so ill and it was, you know, it was like I felt so fractured already in general, just from my upbringing, but also just this deep grief of knowing my father was going to pass. And I think now, gosh, there were so many questions I didn't have at that time in my life. Monica: I didn't even know that I didn't know that I would want to know. Libby: Yeah, totally. Monica: He had so much wisdom. And of course he dispensed nuggets of wisdom his whole life. And really he did. I mean, you know, I write about this. Yes. And his voice is so clear in my head, but there's also, there was this, also this emotional unavailability. Monica: And even when he was with us, it felt like. He was removed in some way, and he too went away to work. He left the house very early in the morning as a vascular surgeon, and he came home very late at night and. I'm in this moment, Libby, remembering that I used to literally go and get from the bar a glass and fill it with ice and wait at the kitchen table for him. Monica: Because I knew that first of all, if I was waiting for him, my mother would let me stay up a little bit later, but that if I were lucky, he would pour himself a drink and tell me a story or two before I headed up to bed. But. It, there was this very kind of, and I feel like this is something that ends up coming up a lot in our groups. Monica: We talk about the mother wound and sometimes there's this very gaping, like we don't even realize we have it. Cause so many women think, you know, that they were daddy's little girl and there's such a father wound as well. Because, you know, when I even presence this conversation, I recognize that those two, again, those two primary relationships in our life are so important. Monica: And they hold so much potency. And so it isn't until we get to a certain point where we are in relationships of our own or having families of our own, where we start to unearth some of these unconscious. or even conscious wounds. And we realize we've been really running and avoiding our whole lives and that there's actually a tremendous amount of wisdom by going back to these places before we go forward. Libby: Yeah. I love, first of all, before you were even telling that story, I was like seeing the picture of the, the black and white picture behind you. Is that your grandfather and then your father? Uh huh. Okay. Yeah. So I just feel like they're so here. That's so interesting because this is not the conversation you and I plan to have. Libby: It never is. We always just go with it. It's never exactly what we think we're going to do. But. What kind of stands out to me about that in the context of unbecoming and divesting from patriarchy is how sad it is that we get told our story is out there. We're always chasing the idea of creating. A story when the story is happening in plain sight, it's kind of what you say about hiding in plain sight, the story is happening in plain sight and we're so again forward focused, so out there focused that we, by the time I feel like a lot of us catch up to the truth of what we really desire and the truth of where we came from, sometimes it can be too late in the example of my grandfather, in some ways, you know, I did know him. Libby: a little, not as much as I would have liked to, but it's kind of like, it is kind of like the trance of unworthiness that you're always talking about because we're in this matrix of always out there and going in. There's so much, I mean, it's in our genes, it's in our DNA. There's so much story there. Libby: There's so much matter and we think it doesn't matter. We think the story doesn't matter. And when we have. Loss, a lot of times it gives great perspective, um, like inflection points. For me, I'm having a very big one, especially because it was my mother's father and my mother is gone, so. In the context of, of the patriarchal conditioning, I think it's really powerful to hold it against that because that this is part of what we're missing out on. Monica: Yeah, you know, I was inviting us to kind of go there right away with your just presencing of your grandfather's recent passing and also recognizing that. For those listeners, maybe who are just joining us this, I mean, we love the men in our lives. What we're up to with this work of unbecoming and divesting from patriarchy is the systemic lack of balance, this systemic way of being. Monica: And I should probably just pull up a quick definition, but it's, We all hopefully by this point recognize that when we're talking about patriarchy, what we're talking about is a system that has actually kept men and women from being able to To love each other. Well, let me put it that way. And it's kept men and women from being able to integrate and balance and honor and know about the energy or the matter that we are and where we're actually from, which is from the matter, the mother. Monica: And that is. We are of the earth and so we are human and we have this spirit, you know, that the body is the matter and that our spirit or our soul is the essence that lives within that animates this body. And so when I think about even. My father, your grandfather, so much of how they related back in those days was through storytelling and coming from a very Irish family, Irish and Scottish, you know, there were characters like these people were characters and the more kind of eccentric and outlandish you were. Monica: The better the story was, right? Libby: Paul, my husband always says, and he's half Irish, is like, never let the truth get in the way of a good story. It's so true. It's so true. I love what you're sharing, Mon. Like, it's just. I'm actually just having a revelation in this moment about how much what we are told, I know I said this a couple minutes ago, but it's landing more about what we are told matters, the celebrity culture or what how you make your life look on social media, or it's just this whole. Libby: You know, you said spell casting earlier. I don't know if that was before we started the recording, but it really is this spell that we're under that that's somehow more important than what's happening in here. And it keeps us disempowered. It keeps us out of our bodies and it perpetuates. the system of oppression of patriarchy for men and women. Libby: It's not like you said, it's not just women who aren't, who it isn't working for. It's men too. I remember hearing a talk, I think it was Brene Brown. And she's like, when I talk about shame, I didn't talk about men a lot. And men would tell me I'd rather die on the horse with my sword in the air than let anybody see that I might be weak or that I might need something. Libby: So I just think it's a really interesting. Access point that we're going in Monica: through me too. I love that these conversations or are organic as I think they all really the best ones are organic but there's also really what we're presencing as we talk about this is all of the isms as well all of the systemic issues that have been part of the patriarchal culture that as you. Monica: So beautifully just pointed out have not allowed that there has been this compartmentalized way of kind of operating and being in the world and I had read an article earlier and I want to kind of just presence it here Because I think it's really important and this article Is on ravishly, and I think it's anyway, the article is called take the cake, a fat girl's guide to intelligently divesting from patriarchy. Monica: And what I loved about this article is that she talks about all of the ways that we don't realize how we invest in patriarchy. And that could mean emotionally, that could mean literally with our money. But let me just read this particular part because it'll give us quite a bit to kind of talk about here. Monica: So what does change look like? It looks like taking a cold, hard look at how much you're investing in patriarchy and asking yourself what you're getting out of the investment. It's important to be strategic and intentional when it comes to the people's ideas and entities with which you are aligning. If your vision of your life doesn't align with patriarchy's vision, then you owe it to yourself to divest and to reinvest in yourself. Monica: And so what I loved about what we're just starting to do here is to start to presence what. Patriarchy's vision for our lives are, and so for me, and I don't know for you, Libby, what this is. I mean, I do, but I want you to talk about it. It was always about prioritizing others over my own happiness. It was always about conforming. Monica: It was always about competition with other women or this hidden scarcity that was kind of always in the water, so to speak, there wasn't enough. There wasn't enough time. There wasn't enough beauty. Beauty. There wasn't enough youth. There wasn't enough. It's also about keeping quiet. It was for me. Anyway, it was about keeping quiet and not rocking the boat, which is something that my father actually was a big voice of in my life. Monica: He would always turn to me and say, like, you just had to stir the mud. Monica, right? You just had to stir the mud. Libby: That's what I love about you. That's what I love about you. Monica: Now I brag about it. Um, it's so good. So yep, rocking the boat again, dad. And I know that he's completely in another place about it. Monica: He's like, he's like rooting for me rocking the boat now, because I believe that when we cross over, then we remember again, we're like, Oh yeah, I forgot about this whole, whole, whole world, this whole universe that I am part and parcel of everything and everyone. It's like, we're back to unity consciousness. Monica: So it was also about. Building a career and investing my entire life in work in such a way that I literally had no life. And I was so depleted, so exhausted, so overwhelmed, but I had a 401k. You know, it's like, Oh my God. So presents a few for yourself. Libby: Oh my God. So much is coming up for me when you're sharing this. Libby: And I love the excerpt from the article. And I just want to, I have to say one thing before I forget it, because I'm actually, what's coming to me is who's getting the return on that investment. Uh, patriarchy. It's not us. Yeah. That's just a big, the house always wins. This is kind of that same idea. Oh my Monica: God. Monica: That's fucking brilliant. The whole Libby: fucking return. I have chills. The whole return on investment is. Girding the system. We are not getting it. It's just the solution created that we will get a return on the investment. If we make ourselves more, well, I'll share some of my things for how I was investing in patriarchy and it is a sneaky bitch, sometimes it still happens. Libby: I still, this is a lifelong journey. I just want everyone to know. I have not arrived. That will never happen for me. It was making myself. I'm actually doing a lot of writing about this. Making myself consumable. Ah, yes. To others. Digestible, kind of packaging myself, to the point where I was punishing myself in so many ways. Libby: One being just, this sounds like maybe a small example, but it was really profound. The more I think about it is that I wouldn't wear anything that would show my legs. I would wear pants to the beach for like decades because I was so worried that I would be too, my thighs would be too disgusting for the public consumption. Libby: Now, my dear thighs were like dying for some fresh air and some sunshine and some love and to feel the waves and. It's really just, yeah, that's one of the things that, that one just really always stands out to me and also making myself small in the literal and, you know, Metaphorical sense, but really making myself small, which resulted in eating disorder. Monica: I haven't met a woman yet that does not suffer from disordered eating. Most women don't know that they do, but yeah, and maybe that's changed. Libby: Maybe it's changed, but I mean, we just recently saw a statistic that it's like by the age of 12, like 50 percent of girls have. Disordered thinking around food. Libby: It's so real and so smallness and trying to constantly. Substantiate my value through overachieving I did also figure out at a young age that overachieving would like keep me quote unquote safer like less conflict in my life because I grew up with a lot of conflict and trauma and addiction around me, but overachieving to the point where it was just. Libby: Sucking my soul like the pit was bottomless. I've said this before, probably on your podcast, always trying to fill this hole of not enoughness that would never be filled by anything out there, but we're constantly being sold that it's all out there. And I guess some other things would be giving away my sexual power. Libby: Empty consent. Monica: Say more about that. Say more about empty, empty consent. Yeah. Libby: I didn't learn this is actually a recent revelation is I did not learn anything about consent and I'm realizing like most people don't and when I say consent I mean like where I end and you begin what a yes feels like what a no feels like what a maybe feels like I think I said to you recently like the only thing I was taught about consent was no means no which was treated like a joke also Monica: Libby You I'm over here. Monica: Like, well, fuck sake. Right? Like we're taught to obey. So even if you, again, I'm thinking of my father. So if my father turned to me and asked me, it was like, yes, sir. Even if I didn't, you know, like, even if I didn't want to, it was like, I'm going to get my ass Libby: kicked. Totally. We're like forced to hug people. Libby: We're forced to, you know, whatever it is, bathe with other children. We don't might not want to bathe with. And so this idea of empty consent is something I've been like really riffing on in this writing stuff that you and I are both up to, because I would essentially, in various different ways, the easiest way to say it is like roofie myself, intuition and my, my judgment, I guess you could say, in order to put myself in a state where I could give away my erotic Lyrics Power and it was a very, it's a double bind because I like wanted to feel the energy of my sexual power, but I never could because of the way that I was taught that it should be taken or given away. Libby: But it's never for me. So that's kind of what I mean by empty consent. It's I would literally black out or I would do things I didn't want to do sexually. And it's just astonishing to me how I Didn't reflect on that for so long, but this is what happens as you unpack these things is you're like, oh You always say you can't read the label from inside of the bottle. Libby: It's like oh, well, that's fucked up Oh, yeah, but that I was taught that my body is something to be taken or given away without even Deciding that I'm consenting. Monica: Exactly. And how normalized it is until you actually go back and look at some of the places where you're still having, it's like what I've started to get really curious about is. Monica: Why do I still have a memory about that? Why is there something still lingering about that that is haunting me? You know why? Because there's a piece of me that I abandoned there. Yeah. Because I said yes when I meant no or I said no when I meant yes. And I have to go and retrieve that part. Yeah, yeah. Monica: Right? And so it's like, it's such a beautiful thing to be able to get curious about some of these things. And I want to make sure, you know, that we're also really clear that this work is coaching work. It's group coaching work. And so while. This is not therapy. It is incredibly therapeutic and we're not interested in dwelling in the past. Monica: What we're interested in doing is to revisit the parts of ourselves that we have abandoned or the pieces and parts that we have normalized to the point where they're actually crying out for. Us to do the inner work to do the, to make the unconscious conscious. So that we can actually remember our wholeness. Monica: And this is where things start to get really magical because I can raise my hand and say, I could do this unbecoming work for the rest of my life and I would still be unbecoming an area, right? It's like I was realizing when we started this conversation, I've focused on my matrilineal line up until now. Monica: And I've done. Bits and parts that are about my patrilineal line, but when I really kind of go back, I have, there is so much conditioning about what it meant to be a girl, what it meant to be a boy. And I have brothers, I have brothers in two different generations, actually, I brag, and so it's so amazing to me, there's still so many questions that I want to ask and. Monica: I haven't even talked to my brothers about some of this stuff and that's just occurring to me now. Right. So there's so much gold here, I guess, is my point. And as we do this work, there's so much Comes to light and what comes with that light is also healing and levity and vitality because when you think about it's like we're dragging our past into our future every time we don't turn around and take an inventory of where we are and how the hell we got here, especially if You're out there listening and you're feeling overwhelmed, afraid, miserable, lonely, exhausted. Monica: I am talking to you, come be with us for this program, because this is what this unconscious stuff does is it begins to weigh you down and you don't know what to do with it. And what is needing to be done with it is to first be with it and then alchemize it. Yeah. And what we are What we love so much about this work is not only are we divesting from patriarchy and all of its intersecting systems, racism, sexism, capitalism, colonialism, right? Monica: Colonialism. And we, we, we really bring in special guests to talk about these different topics. But what we're really up to is creating a supportive circle of sisterhood where we can help each other remember, because so much of what happens in these spaces is the storytelling from our own lives. However, these are the stories that we share about our personal lives. Monica: And suddenly I see part of myself in her that I didn't even think about that up until she mentioned it. Us having this conversation about the men in our lives and. What did we gain? What did we lose? Where are we at in our relationship to our, to our ancestors who have passed? What do we want to take forward with us? Monica: What do we want to let go of? Yeah. It's just all of these ways that we have to, at some point in our lives, say, okay, I'm ready for a redesign. I want to unbecome from everything. I'm not so that I can actually. Be who I am. Libby: Oh my God. Yes, Monica. I just have this like vision of, I've thought about this before, but it's landing differently in this conversation. Libby: I've had this conversation. I'm probably with you, but we get blueprinted by patriarchy and let's say here's the blueprint and we are the house. Our life is the house. And if we're not doing this work, if we're not. In, if we're not turning toward, because we're taught to turn away, we're taught to turn away and then we spend decades bracing against whatever suffering we have not yet processed or whatever experiences that we have not fully expressed or accepted. Libby: Or accepted, um, or alchemized or whatever. And what we need to do is completely wipe the blueprint and make a new one. But what we keep trying to do is we like erase. The window and try to put the window in the other room, but then patriarchy just keeps coming back and putting the window where it was on the blueprint. Libby: Do you see what I'm saying? It's like we're trying to like piecemeal healing and it's not. That's just not how it works. All of it. Has to be in the mix. We always say like everything gets to belong. We have to be willing to have it all be in the mix so we can actually create the blueprint. We can just burn, wipe, whatever you want to do with the old one. Libby: We can't go in and just change pieces of it. It's actually like a whole fresh new take. Leaving the matrix and creating a new one or i'm even thinking about the investing thing if we're no longer investing in patriarchy then what are we going to be investing in and the only way we can find out what we're investing in is to understand what we believe in what our values are where we've been and where we're going. Monica: Yes. Yes. And we think we know what we believe in until we do some investigation work there. Oh yeah. And there's so many unconscious beliefs that rule our lives. And that is also really incredible discovery. So many revelations just in that module of what we do. Yeah. I also, another way to approach what you were saying, which might be helpful to our listener is to look at it like this, who would I be? Monica: If the world hadn't got its hands on me, if patriarchy hadn't come over and said, Monica. None of those parts of you are allowed, so you're not allowed to have a basement, you're not allowed to have an attic, you're not allowed to have windows, you're not allowed to have a disposal in your house, you're not allowed to have a dishwasher, whatever that is for you, it's like, who would I be if I had been left Just be a creative being right? Monica: Like be an outrageous, creative, magical, mystical being. And so, so much of this work is about getting women back in touch with those parts of themselves that they kicked out of the house or that they eliminated from. The design because then they wouldn't belong and then they couldn't have other people over because then it would be their decor would be unacceptable. Libby: It's so true. Monica: Whatever you want to say, right? Libby: Yes, totally. Oh, my gosh. Absolutely. And I'm just. Another thing that happens is we're taught that we're taught to believe that our struggle is shameful and, and unique in its shame. And when we gather, we realize, Oh, pretty much everybody is fucked up around this or whatever it is like, Libby: not as a judgment, like, Oh my God, I can fucking breathe because I'm not the only one. I don't have to think that I'm just this horrible troll living under the bridge. That's what I, sometimes I like imagine. I'm like, I see a picture and I'm like, Oh, I'm not, I'm not a troll living under the bridge, but you know what I'm saying? Libby: It's like, so weird. When you start to Monica: like the trance of unworthiness are, and this is why I love this work so much is because you can't be in the trance when you're constantly in. An environment that is showing you who you Libby: really are sunshine and water and love and all Monica: the things and nourishment. Monica: Right. And that doesn't allow you to lie to yourself anymore or deprive yourself anymore because there's so many versions of what this looks like. And what's so Just beautiful about the entire experience is that not only do we realize that we're not alone, but we get wildly intimate with other women for the first time, because we actually trust ourselves and each other. Monica: I mean, we get to that point right in the group. That's the magic for me is seeing women light up to this. In this place where they're like, Oh my God, like I never knew it could be like this. I get the chills when I say that every single time, because in every group we've ever run, that has come up. Like, I didn't know that it was possible to be this way with other women. Libby: Totally. And one thing that's coming to me right now is the extent to which we can celebrate another woman is the extent to which we can celebrate ourselves and vice versa. And it's just. You can't, there's nothing that compares to it. There's really nothing that compares to it. It's bringing, it's like a coming home. Libby: We've talked about this. It's, it's remembering how we're actually designed to be together and it's like massive space for. Everybody's everything everybody's everything it's like you don't have to kick any parts of you out of the house in fact we're inviting them in and saying let's party see what everybody needs because these parts that we've abandoned really do have something to tell us. Libby: They really do. And they, they need us. This is another thing about patriarchal culture. This savior mentality. It's like, again, this out there thing. It's like someone else is going to come make me feel better. Or this job is going to fill this hole or whatever. And actually we're the thing. That we're waiting for. Libby: And we're here all along. It's just we don't know how to be here because we've been so fucking traumatized out of our bodies and out of trusting ourselves. And when you go into spaces, like I look at you, Monica, for example, I just want to say this out loud. I remember when I met you, I was like, I want to be like Monica, you know, and I was like, I want to be like, yeah, but we have these experiences, right? Libby: Like, oh, they've got their shit together. They figured it out or whatever. And it's like, yeah. A forever journey of first of all, but like, this is the way this is, this is how we found our way was together. You can't like, if one of the tools of patriarchy is isolating women from each other, then the antidote is community with each other. Libby: You know, it's, it's the only, in my personal opinion, and I did get a master's in clinical psychology. Okay. Just going to throw that out there in my personal opinion and experience, it is the most healing. And synthesizing environment where people, I love therapy. I have a therapist. I'm supposed to see her in the morning, you know, all that. Libby: And there's oftentimes a gap between the things we know and learn and the actual living it because when I'm in my therapist office, nobody's going to know what I told her. Nobody's gonna, when we're in a community with other women in this particular way, we're like, okay, I'm pulling it out into the light. Libby: Everyone's going to see it and they're going to cheer me on. They're going to say, we see you. We're going to say. Shed those tears, we're going to say, do the thing that you've been lusting to do or whatever it is, and you can't, it's actually real life practice. You can't hide anymore unless you literally just disappear and we, we don't want that. Monica: Yeah. And let me also just presence that we all have this part of us that says, Oh no, whatever they're talking about, if they knew the real me. Nobody would accept me. I would be kicked out. I would be kicked out of the circle. I would be I mean, it's everybody's secret thought. That's not a secret. Just saying, Oh, yeah, everybody has this thought. Monica: So in case you're the one having the thought right now, Libby: in case everyone is having Monica: Everyone is an exception to the rule of what Libby and I are talking about, because that's the other thing is we have women in our group who have been through life, like for real, have had all kinds of life experiences that are not. Monica: Pretty pleasing or polite. And let me tell you, all of it is welcome. We welcome it. We embrace it. And that's the beauty of it is part of it is we haven't processed it because we haven't authentically known who we authentically are in all of this. So part of this journey is actually like starting to tell the truth about your own life, no matter how messy and ugly. Monica: And in many cases, how beautiful it is, and you've been hiding how beautiful it is because there's also women that come and if they've been taught to be small and not shiny their whole life, and yet when you really start. moving through the stuff. It's like, Oh my God, girl go. Right. And we all have, we all have various points where this work is meeting us. Monica: So there's no prerequisite. In other words, it's not like you have to have a certain degree or whatever to get into this work that you have to have done a certain amount of therapy. Right. If what we're talking about interests you and you want to check it out. Great. But the reason we call it unbecoming, I feel like it's worthy of mention. Monica: Is because that word was used in my generation a lot. Monica, don't sit that way. That's unbecoming for a young lady. And so I, that would ring in my ears. Literally, how many times a day do we sit that I had internalized the voice that said, young ladies don't sit that way. A lady doesn't sit that way. A lady doesn't talk like that. Monica: A lady doesn't do this. A lady doesn't do that. That is unbecoming. For a young lady, for a nice young lady, for a nice Libby: young lady. No one's going to marry you if you don't cross your legs. Oh Monica: my gosh, and that was said. Oh, Libby: wow. It's Monica: brutal. It's like, who's ever going to want you, Monica? If you, it's like, that was my worth, was how polished I was, how appealing I was. Monica: Yeah. That. Was what it was all about growing up in my world. That might not have been our listeners world. That might not have been your world Libby, but that was my world. It was like, that's what I was taught. My value was, was in this exterior appearance and, you know, and it contributed in a huge way to my perfectionism and. Monica: I reaped tons of gifts from it as well. And so the other part of the work that we do is looking through different lenses of perspective so that we can actually claim the gifts that exist within some of the shadows, because I would often say that my perfectionism was a shadow. And I didn't even know what perfectionism really was. Monica: I would joke about it, but I didn't know all of the different masks that it wears. And it was really amazing for me to start unbecoming from the perfectionist. So back to kind of this word of unbecoming, it's, you could think of it as like unpacking, untangling, Libby: unraveling, unwinding around. Yeah. Monica: Yeah. And we've been taught, oh God, she's coming undone. Monica: In fact, there's a book called that. It's one of my favorites actually. Oh, hell Libby: yes. We brag, we are fuckin straight up undone at this point. We Monica: are so friggin undone. It is just, yeah, it's very unbecoming. Yes. It is very unbecoming. And so there's also, as you can hear, probably by listening to us, a tremendous amount of affection and laughter and levity in these groups, you know, it's serious work and it is also magical work. Monica: And we, we brag, we bring a ton of laughter and joy and levity and just really. I feel like there's, there's this exquisiteness to this work because it's so real. Libby: And also like, we're in the sisterhood with you. Like we're the facilitators and navigators and we're still unbecoming. We're actually teaching these things because it's what keeps us healthy. Libby: We have designed our lives and work around this type of healing and teaching. Because, A, I personally believe it's the greatest contribution I can make is to help women be more embodied and more outspoken and more themselves. But also, it's what keeps us healthy. We're, I actually need to be in these spaces. Libby: Like, this is not just because I think it's a great idea. It's actually, I had to come undone. I had to come undone. Well, the first time I did a group like this was the one that I ended up doing again, then the second time was with you, but I called myself like the freight train of crazy in that group. And then the facilitator at the end of the group, who we love and adore Megan, Joe Wilson was like, Hey, who are you, you get this come with me. Libby: And I was like, because I was such, I felt like such a fucking mess, but it was like. No, that is the way. Monica: Like you're the perfect mass for Libby: me. I always joke and say like, I have the perfect trauma for this job, the perfect messed up background for this job. But it's so, I just want to really underscore, we actually learned so much about ourselves facilitating this together. Libby: We had deeper and harder conversations with each other. We called each other forth more. This isn't like you're over there. Healing and doing the work. And we're over here just like eating our popcorn and not growing. It's like we, we do a lot of intuitive leadership where we're just trusting what's coming up in the moment. Libby: And we're right in the trenches with you. Like, I just really, I really want to say that because I think it's important because a lot of coaches would like kind of try to lure me and I guess you could say or prospect me for their groups or whatever. But yeah. My I realize looking back is that they weren't living what they were selling or they weren't living what they were teaching and I couldn't get with that. Libby: That was like a big barrier for me. And so I just want people to understand that. And I think they do at this point. I mean, I brag. I'm kind of like. A usual suspect on this podcast like they probably know me a little bit by now and obviously Monica is like the queen of the podcast so I think people know this but I don't think we can remind people enough because we're so used to this like hierarchy around learning and teaching and around Monica: leadership. Monica: And around leadership. Yeah. And I love that we're bringing this part of it in because that's exactly what we're doing is we're teaching the teachings, practices and tools of what we call embodied feminine leadership. And let me already say Just right from the get go, every single woman in the world has her own inner leadership. Monica: I have never met a woman that isn't a leader, period. So if, if you're even hearing this and you're like, oh, that's not me. No, every woman I have ever met is an incredible leader. And when I even see even in her pinky finger, what she is capable of, it's just, it's a joke to me. This is, this is the joke of the trance of unworthiness is actually, we have been conditioned to believe that we are the weaker sex. Monica: Our actual spiritual essence is one of power men's actual spiritual essence is heart and depending on you can go way back to like Vedic all kinds of gurus will talk about this that actually. This whole world has been inverted and so to get out of this patriarchal programming that keeps us working at a patriarchal pace that keeps us putting ourselves last that keeps us Libby: preoccupied with our thighs Monica: preoccupied with our thighs that keeps us starving ourselves from pleasure joy rest. Monica: Birthday cake, submarine sandwich, whatever it is, it is tragic, it's tragic. So there are so many places that I could take this conversation, but where I want to take it next Libby is. We started this conversation by talking about out there, out there, out there, we talked about how we were taught to obey, comply, to not give our consent, to be small, not actually, to wear different masks, to kind of get by, to survive. Monica: And You were pointing to this earlier, but you were talking about it's all been right here. And so what I would love for you to share more about is when, what are you talking about? What's right here? Libby: Well, what's the easiest way to say this? The answer is right here. The, what I'm thinking about right now is I recently heard somebody refer to our Intuition is like the technology of our body, the things that so magically happen right here inside of us that we're so, we're so distracted by out here that we can't even hear the message. Libby: So I used to have a mentor who would say, you know, and you don't have to use the word God, but in this case, she said, God is always broadcasting. It's just, can we turn down the chatter enough so we can hear the message? And I actually. My lived experiences, it's always broadcasting through my body, always, always broadcasting through my body and I've been taught to constantly override and silence my body, like literally. Libby: When I had an eating disorder, I would be hungry after not eating for a day and a half and exercising and working and whatever, and I would look at something and my body would be like, Oh, my God, that, that I want that the trance would come right in and say, Nope, not yet. You haven't done X enough. You haven't done. Libby: That's like a very concrete example, but. In my personal lived experience, if I can just slow down, which is a radical act and is scary, we actually have to build a tolerance to slowing down. Like that's my, my caveat here. But when I can actually. Listen to the sensations in my body, they will tell me yes or no, they will tell me that person is safe or not, they will tell me don't walk down that alley or yes, walk down that alley, they will tell me go to that class or travel to that place, but we're able Always getting taught to look out there to be like, well, what are they doing? Libby: What are, what are those people out there doing? Does that, you know, do you know what Monica: I mean? Yeah. So I love this because it's bringing me to this kind of statement, which is we're taught. Through consensus culture to get a consensus, to get to our answer versus the way that we coach in this program is to help you find your answer. Monica: We don't have your answers for you. You have your answers and you have always had your answers. And this is another big part of the trance of unworthiness. And let me also be clear that the trance. You know, when I talk about the trance of unworthiness, I'm talking about the trance of scarcity, I'm talking about the trance of unworthiness, I'm talking about the trance of being unlovable, I'm talking, like, whatever you want to call it, it's a trance, it's just a spell, it's just, you are conditioned to believe something about yourself, to believe a whole lot of things about yourself and the world that are actually a bunch of friggin lies, and somebody told you a story and you believed it, and what we do in this world, Course, and what we do on this podcast is we take the pen out of the patriarchy's hands and we say, I will be narrating this story from this point forward. Monica: Thank you very fucking much. Actually. No, thank you. I mean, what I've come to learn is that I'm actually grateful for the patriarchy because separation and fracturing actually is what is required in order to remember we, let me just be clear. We are on a planet that is dualistic. There are polarities. Monica: It's unavoidable. And so, we In these polarities, what we're here to do is to actually explore these polarities. And so we're often raised to some point in our life where the universe anticipates and wants. Us to do the unbecoming work, because that's where we also do the remembering work. It's where we make the unconscious conscious, and it's where we cancel out these opposites and these polarities and come into unity first with ourselves and then with others. Monica: And the only thing that is getting in the way are all of the barriers that we ourselves have put. Between us and love and unity and what we're up to in the unbecoming work is revealing those barriers and looking at them and being like, Oh, I don't need that anymore. Oh, you know what? That was like this hungry ghost. Monica: Yeah. And the illusion that I never wanted to look at. And now I'm turning around and looking at it and oh my gosh. There behind that Gary monster was my little five year old self that believed that she wasn't good enough and, and I've carried that belief up into my adult world and here's how it manifests and I'm going to create a new story about this now. Monica: Yeah. So it's such unworthiness. Monica: Can manifest in all of these different ways, but really the best way to describe it is that it's keeping you from knowing your own enoughness and your own magnificence Monica: and your own. Brilliance and your own light and your own vitality and your own health. Absolutely. Everything guaranteed that is wrong with the world is part of the trance. And there's also a lot wrong with the world. So, so one of the things that we often do in this work is, you know, we point to the absurdities and also the truths and those things get to all belong together. Monica: So it's. Really great work. And I want to kind of come back to Libby, you and I really just, and you talking about how. The body comes into it. And when we talk about embodiment, hold on, we'll, we'll wait for Jack to kind of stop chiming in the FedEx guys here. Oh, Jack. Thanks. We, we hear you, buddy. Thank you so much. Monica: So, yeah, because I think embodiment is also one of those. Ideas and when it comes to the body and divesting, that's a big one. Libby: It is embodiment is like, unfortunately, a buzzword right now. Um, so I think it loses some of its importance when it becomes a cultural buzzword that way. And it is so important. Libby: You know, I call an embodied experience kind of like what I was describing earlier. It's like the aha moment, like the light bulb. It's like, oh, that's what my teacher in seventh grade meant. Or that's what when you actually have. You know, teachings are just words until you have a lived experience with it, where you actually with your body live through something that connects the information, connects the dots for you. Monica: What I hear you saying is like it lands or it integrates or it finally makes sense because you're getting it out of your head and into your Libby: body. Exactly. Okay. Exactly. And another way of looking at embodiment is so we. One thing we do in this work is get really clear on our values and how we want to show up in the world and. Libby: Embodiment is when we can live and show up enacting and practicing those values, even when pressure is applied. So say more. Yeah, I think of like dissociation, right? Thank you. Dissociation like we, you know, we've had this conversation, I think, on here for saving me many times for many years, many times for many years. Libby: Let's just say this to the people who are listening is like, have you ever had an experience where you are saying something you actually don't mean because you're in an acute sort of like pressure chamber of like a hard conversation or an interaction that triggered you Or fight Or flight. Fight or flight. Libby: Yeah. Trauma response. Exactly. I know the answer is yes. I'm just gonna say if there's one person listening to this, who the answer is, doesn't have the answer. Yes. Like just call us and tell us because we want to know how you're doing that. But it's out of, it doesn't, the needle doesn't point in the direction of your values. Libby: If your values are love, connection and curiosity. Now this isn't to say we don't get angry righteously that we don't have, you know, sadness righteously. I'm not trying to bypass any of that. We actually very much go and lean into that in this group that we run and this is how we live our lives. But it's when we are able to, when pressure is applied, like Monica and I having a hard conversation when we were leading this thing, she was like calling me in and I actually was having a really hard time staying embodied because my history said it's time to leave because it's not safe for you to tell the truth if you're scared or whatever, I don't even remember what it was in that moment and she stayed, she stayed and she said, you know, I don't even remember what you said, but it was perfect. Libby: And Monica: I know, I remember, I remember what it was. We were leading a retreat together in person and I was questioning how we were dancing together and if it was working for you. And you were so conditioned to be like, Oh, there's something wrong that she wants to talk about it. And I. There was nothing wrong. Monica: I just wanted to talk about it. But you were so conditioned to be like, Oh my God, she wants to talk about it. So something must be wrong, Libby: right? Pressure is being applied. I can't Monica: be myself. Pressure was being applied. And like, I was like, Are you okay, Libby? Are you still here with me? And I remember reaching out my hand to you and touching you and being like, I just want to make sure everything is working for you. Monica: Yeah. Because, right? And you were like, Libby: Yeah, I like burst into tears. And I remember you're like, For example, I won't know if something feels like I'm being an asshole unless you tell me. And I was like, Right. What are you even talking about? Like, I was so confused because I was leaving, pressure was being applied. Libby: And when I say pressure is being applied, that can simply be somebody putting the focus on you. Yes. Right. And so my value is love and connection and honesty and integrity. You know, some of those, those are some of my values, especially in leadership, you know, and pressure was being applied and my needle was bouncing back and forth between. Libby: Staying and going. Monica: Right. She's like, am I doing this right? Am I doing this right? Are we doing this right? And I think we were both kind of trying to find our way. And so it, these foreign territories where there's like this silent agreement that we're not supposed to be messy or talk about things as Libby: women. Libby: Will be abandoned. Like I was actually genuinely afraid that you were going to kick me out of the garden like and you're and you said, I will never forget this part. You said, I'm not trying to kick you out of the garden. I'm just trying to make it more beautiful for you. Oh, my God. No, it makes me cry, Monica, because I was like, wow, like how generous and amazing and everything in my conditioning was like, this person's looking at you and it is not safe. Libby: It is not safe for you to tell the truth because she, you love her and she might run from you. Like that's really what I'm surmising was happening there because a lot of it was like blackout. Right. Cause Monica: that's what happens. Right. Libby: Versus times when pressure is applied and I am able, I'm like, like right there. Libby: It takes practice. That's right. It takes practice. This is why it takes practice with people who are willing to be messy and brave. And understanding that it's actually like healthy attachment stuff. It's like the repair, the repair Monica: it is, and it's building a baseline of recovery because every time we recover together as women, we build a baseline of recovering. Monica: And when we recover, it's always. Even something better. Yes. Because we haven't stepped over the pile of shit. Yeah. In the room. Yes. The, the steaming, stinking pile of shit in the room. Right. We haven't stepped over it and pretended it's not there. We've turned around and said, do you see? Do you see this pile of shit in the room? Monica: Let's get it out of the room so that we can make our space beautiful. Let's burn some incense. Like, let's just talk about this. Like, like we have to say yes to the mess. And so what I love about where we're heading with this too, is that one of the big lies of patriarchy is that women don't collaborate well and that you can't trust other women. Monica: And that is bull shit. That is. Bullshit, you can, and it takes some tools and that's the other part about this work is that when we're divesting from patriarchy, it doesn't happen without tools. And I love it. Is it an. Audre Lorde, we can't build a new house with the same tools of the master or something like that. Monica: I just butchered it, but it it's this idea of like, we need new tools. And these are the tools we're teaching other women is how to build a new house, how to build new relationships. And one of the things that comes up for a lot of women, when it comes to divesting from patriarchy and investing in themselves. Monica: They suddenly have fear, and the number one fear is this is gonna disrupt my relationships. I just am gonna presence that. Because again, if you think you're special and you're the only one having that thought, oh, if I did this work, things are kind of tense at home, it would probably disrupt the household even more. Monica: So I'm not gonna save you from that thought, but I am going to offer another perspective. That you can keep pretending not to know that things are difficult in certain relationships that you have and keep doing it the way you've been doing it. And if you. Always do what you've always done. You will always get what you've always gotten. Monica: And so what I want to invite you to do is to invest in yourself and to know that yes, it may get messy. We will say, say yes to the mess. And the beauty of doing this work is I can guarantee you, you'll get clarity on whether to go or stay. But there will also be. A recovery mechanism and tools where you will be able to redesign your relationship in a way that fully works for you. Monica: And I'm talking about all relationships, your relationships with your children, your relationships with your husband, your relationships with your lover, your relationships with. With your money, I mean, everything. And so is this disruptive work? You bet. It's why we call it disrupting the trance of unworthiness. Monica: You betcha. It is disruptive Libby: work. We're naughty. We're very naughty over Monica: here. Disruption you will ever have. Yes. So I've loved this conversation so much and to end it. Libby, I wanted to read the definition of divesting. Yes. It's so good. Because I thought this was so cool. So the definition of divesting is to deprive someone of power, rights, or possession. Monica: I can't help but mention that women were possessions. And we've been taught that we're to be possessed, or we're taught that we're possessed if we're even emotional. It's so interesting, like, the use of some of these words. I also love, like, it's to deprive someone or something, in this case, patriarchy. Monica: It's to deprive patriarchy of power. And it's actually about claiming our rights and so many of these rights. And I have a bill of rights. You're more than welcome. If you haven't already, it's a free gift on my website. It's called my bill of rights. And it's just all this whole idea that I teach about called the sacred and, and it's about being able to be messy and magnificent these ways that we think that if we're this, we can't also be that. Monica: And so. We're going to deprive patriarchy of their right to keep oppressing and suppressing and keeping us in this trance of unworthiness and we're going to kind of call this shit out. We're going to reclaim our power and we're going to take possession of our own bodies and our own selves and our own ideas and our own damn thoughts and what I loved underneath this, it had a sentence which I thought was hysterical. Monica: As it was demonstrating how to use it in a sentence, you know, because that's important. And this was the sentence, y'all, you cannot make this shit up. It said, men are unlikely to be divested of power without a struggle. Libby: I mean, come on. And. The end mic drop Monica: like drop. Okay, so one more definition is to rid oneself of something someone no longer wants or requires. Monica: So I don't know. Do you want body shame? Do you want to? Work your whole life and never know how to relax in your own body or have time to create the thing you've always wanted to create. I could take this in a whole nother podcast episode, frankly, but what I do want to do is just invite. Everyone who's listening to this podcast, we're going to be doing the unbecoming work, probably till the day we die. Monica: And this particular cohort will begin on November 7th, I believe. Mm hmm. Is that right? I think so. Yeah. And anything else you want to add Libby? Anything you want to invite? Um, I've just enjoyed this conversation so much. Libby: Thank you. We've been so many places and it's been so fun and I just want to say thank you for inviting me over and over again to be In the garden with you for making the garden more beautiful for me. Libby: And for everyone who's listening, you're worth it. That's, that's it. You're worth it. We are worth it. Whether you do it here with us or somewhere else, you're worth it. Monica: Yeah, you're worth it. And I love that because yeah, we're really not into the hard sell. Yeah. It's like you either want it or you don't. I mean, just, just do the work. Monica: Yes. Libby: Listen to your body. Your body will tell you if you felt activated at all listening to this, your body's trying to point you somewhere. Just see what it's like to do, to follow Monica: that. I love that Libby. And I just love you so much. I love you. I love you so much. I love this work so much. I'm so grateful for you. Monica: And yeah, it's just a beautiful garden with you in it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. And for everyone, we'll make sure to put. Links in the show notes and more to be revealed. Monica: We hope you enjoyed this episode. For more information, please visit us@jointherevelation.com and be sure to download our free gift, subscribe to our mailing list or leave us a review on iTunes. We thank you for your generous listening and as always, more to be revealed.