114 Amanda Star Kingsley
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You came into this world raw and ready to learn your brain, a fertile ground for planting, you learn to love, but you also learned to hate you learned pleasure, but you also learned pain.

You marinated in all the beliefs of your family, your friends, your culture shaped by your surroundings. You formed beliefs about body image, worth purpose. Some messages you didn't even know were taking brute in your mind, but re they did. Now that you're an adult, it is your job to weed. You get to decide what beliefs serve, the future you desire.
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Monica: Welcome to the Revelation Project Podcast. I'm Monica Rogers, and this podcast is intended to disrupt the trance of unworthiness and to guide women, to remember and reveal the truth of who we are. We say that life is a revelation project, and what gets revealed gets healed. 


Hello everyone. And welcome to another episode of the Revelation Project Podcast. That beautiful piece was written by Amanda Kingsley. My guest today, who is a certified feminist life coach and doula. She is the host of the Speaking Light into Abortion podcast. And she's the author of what I wish. 100 Love Notes to Help you Survive Come Alive and Thrive after Abortion. After her own unanticipated abortion. As a mother of three, she recognized the need for a wider conversation around the complex emotional landscape of life after abortion. She reminds her audience that it's okay to feel all of the feelings after abortion and that we can honor our decisions by living the life we made our choice for.

You can learn more about her and connect with her@amandastarkingsley.com. And we'll be sure to put these links in the show notes after the show, join me in welcoming Amanda Kingsley. Hi Amanda. 

Amanda: Oh, my goodness. So honored to be here. 

Monica: This is such a powerful conversation. I mean, just on its own. And as you know, I recently.

Recorded an episode about embryo adoption and all of just this magical, incredible story that you had had an opportunity as well to start listening to. And we were just kind of remarking for the listeners. How like, oh my gosh, what a, what an interesting segue to expand this conversation even more, because I think that conception or what I've started to kind of play with this idea of like inconceivable what we think of as inconceivable right.

In our, in our lives and what happens in our lives. It's like, it's recognizing that there's all of these things happening for us and that the inconceivable becomes kind of this interesting contemplation that in our human mess. Yeah. Of course things are inconceivable, but when. I always love talking about the mass.

And I also grabbed a great verse here that also highlights the mess because I believe the masses are becoming place. It's the place where we become whole. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, we could start this conversation anywhere, but anything you want to say about that? 

Amanda: Um, I love this. I love leaning into this word.

Inconceivable. I wrote it down just to see what it felt like, like, yeah. I mean, the first thing that came to me was just like, it was, so I had my abortion at 38. I already had three children and it was, it was inconceivable to me. I know this is like a slightly different definition of the word than you're thinking about, but for me, that I would ever make this choice.

Yeah. I just was so supportive of the access to abortion and the movement and the right. But I ended up it like in choosing not to keep a concepted pregnancy. Is that even a word 

Monica: Who cares? We're making it a word 

Amanda: Who cares? I conceived of like a whole new life and a whole new movement and a whole new, like, something was born.

Something was conceived from this decision that felt like one I would never make. So I think that word alone just like stirred up a whole bunch of stuff for me. Then I'm even just trying to process as you, as you spoke. 

Monica: Yeah, no, I, and actually that is kind of what I meant, right? Like there are these things that happen.

Our life is like, I never thought that would happen to me either. And the truth is it's it's these inconceivable moments that really force us to reckon with our beliefs. Force us to reckon with our own self-love our own self-compassion or lack thereof. And no matter what, anything that happens to us, that's inconceivable is a reckoning of some kind or another.

Yes. 

Amanda: Yeah. I just got this vision of like, what I had to do in that moment was like step into the darkness. Why would anyone do that? Like I had to step into the pain. I had to step into the dark 

For the rebirth that needed to happen, which was my life now. And this work and this, I mean, even just you reading that piece at the beginning, there was a big disconnect for me.

I was like, I, I wrote that. Who wrote that? That wouldn't have been born into the world. If I hadn't stepped into the darkness and made the choice, that felt so hard. And in so many ways, like so wrong and so inconceivable, but I that's what I needed to do. That's what I was called to do was to like, to step into what, what felt it was just a gigantic leap of faith that I would have the tools and the courage I needed on the other side.

And that, for some reason, like you said, this was happening for me. 

Monica: I mean, we can never, that's the other thing we it's inconceivable to imagine, right? That you would have been doing this work, but yet it led you to have such a reckoning that it became something that you saw as actually being part and parcel of your gift to bring to other women.

And there's so many, there's so much that there's so many conversations. Thread through this to kind of like, because there's the conversation of full permission, there's the conversation of forgiveness. There's the conversation of guilt. There's the conversation of belief. There's the conversation of inculturation.

There's the conversation of feminism. Like there's so much here and it's, you know, I'm like, are you really going to say this? Like, I'm so pregnant with so many things that I want to ask you, first of all, I would love to start. This is something a little bit new. It's just coming up. I want to know, like, what does revelation mean to you?

Amanda: Hmm. For me, it's around like this awakening. There's an idea. There's something in the word revelation. That's. Attached to the unexpected. It's not like you were seeking something and you found it it's like you were seeking something and you found something completely unanticipated and had this like, revelation about what life was, what love was, what, like all the things actually never contemplated that word.

So that's literally just coming to me now, but I, yeah, there's, there's this mystery and magic around the word. 

Monica: I don't know. No way. I just decided to ask you that, but I felt like I still. Realizing the other day that there are different interpretations. Right. And I have my interpretations and then it's so great to just hear somebody else's like in the moment, because what I just saw you do was trust yourself to know that you had your answer.

Amanda: Yeah. That what came out might not feel right. But the only way to get to what felt right. Was to say something and let it kind of evolve, which is the story of my life. Right. Just like, if you want to figure it out, you just got to get in the mess, which is what you said. Right. So there was that moment of like, oh, was I supposed to think about this?

Cause it's obviously the name of her work in the podcast. And I was like, Nope, I'm just going to step into the unknown here and see what comes through. And I think that's why I feel some of the disconnect that. That's the first time I've heard my work, read it back to me in that way. And I was like, you need to re read, you need to read my book.

Beautiful the way you read it. But I think that's part of the disconnect is sometimes when I write a lot, at times when I write, I just let it come through. I let it come out and then I figure out what it meant after. 

Monica: Yeah. I love that because, and I know that I shared with you that I'm writing too, and it's, it's like learning to, to just trust myself.

Actually, I heard this, uh, I heard Jordan Peterson who, as I'm saying his name, I'm also kind of cringing as a feminist, right. Because there's, there's also some baggage I have around, you know, him sometimes, but. But what he said was we go to university to learn how to write, because it teaches us to learn how to think.

And I was like, oh my God, I never thought about it that way to learn, to trust myself, to like, just write it and then look at it and like, see like, what is my thinking process? Like, it's not like you think a thought before you speak it, you process as your, or at least I do. Like I process out loud and then I look at what comes out and I'm kind of sometimes astonished.

Amanda: Yeah. Yeah. I, I mean, yeah, that is so much. I actually wonder, I don't think we all have that personality. I think some of us need to get it out there to understand it for ourselves. And then I think some of us do the work the other way. Totally like need the intimacy and the privacy and the quiet to figure it out.

That is not I'm like, I need to throw it out there. And then learn what it's all about. 

Monica: Yes. 

Amanda: That is how I do this work. That is how I started my podcast. That's how I wrote the book is like, for me, part of the understanding how I think and how other people think being in a relationship to it, right? Like I put the work out in the world.

I have a relate different relation to it when it's just me and the work. Then when it's me in the work in the world, and then someone else has a relationship to my work. And now that helps me process and think about it more. Yeah. It's just all this willingness to be in the mess and trust. The greatest lesson of my abortion was that I could have my own back no matter what.

And so I can go into the mess and even if it doesn't turn out the way I thought it was. I'm going to trust myself and have my own back and figure it out.

Monica: I love that. I want to ask you, as you did this, or as you started getting into this work, after you had your own experience, how did you come to the work? Like how did you come to recognize that there was such a need for the work? 

Amanda: Yeah, I, so maybe give a. Story here, you know, people often wonder, like, what's your story? So I did have three kids. I have three kids now, but when I had my abortion, I had three living children. I had four planned pregnancies at that point.

One was a miscarriage. I'd never had an unplanned pregnancy at 38. I thought I had an IUD in place. It fell out. I didn't know. I call it my immaculate IUD removal. It's still strange to me to this day that I didn't feel a piece of metal fall out of my body, but that's the immaculate part. So at 38 I faced my first unplanned pregnancy and had so much confusion.

So many feelings I knew as soon as. My husband and I both knew as soon as we suspected a pregnancy that we did not want another child that we were done, we actually took a negative test. And I say, we, but, you know, I took a negative test and we were so relieved and we both sort of confessed to each other.

We knew abortion would have been the way, but neither of us were sure we were strong enough. Like, so it was this moment of relief, like, oh, thank goodness. We don't have to do the hard thing. Very funny because the next morning there were three more positive tests. And like, at least we now know we're on the same page.

That it's really hard, but it's still what we need to do. So there was like a lot of processing and a lot of thinking and a lot of feeling and a lot of reflecting. And I would say before I even had the abortion. I knew it was happening for me. I knew at that point I had no idea I would do this work. I never could have predicted any of this, but I did think maybe I'm supposed to write a book, not this book at all.

Maybe I'm supposed to tell a story here. That's going to serve someone. And so I did, I knew as soon as it happened, that it had something to do with writing. And there was a story I needed to tell that I never could have told if I hadn't experienced it myself. So once I had the abortion, I just felt like there was this, like, there is this giant hole in reproductive healthcare where no one was talking about the feelings of abortion and the hole was like between the pro-life narrative and the pro-choice narrative.

Those are the only two stories I knew before my own experience. I knew you either, either abortion was a sin and it was murder and you were a terrible person and doomed for the rest of your life and would never be forgiven by God. I mean, that's like this story I thought, and then there was this other story.

Abortion is healthcare. It's how we take care of our bodies. It's no big deal. It's an empowered choice. This is just my perception of these two narratives. And I was like, well, I don't fit in either of those narratives. And that's when I started to just see how big a space there was between. And then I tried to figure out who was filling the space, like who was like, there, there must be someone doing this work.

There must be someone who can help me talk about these feelings who can help me understand what's going on. 

Monica: I was just going to say, so I'm at a, how many people did you find? 

Amanda: I still haven't really found. I mean, there are, I know, I know one other active coach, two other active coaches doing, doing the work, but really honestly it is this gigantic hole that I try not to get overwhelmed by.

And I hope that me sort of being willing to step forward and let it be messy is inviting other people to like, come with me and also talk more about it. But I didn't find anyone like I did it. I had to do all the work by myself and there are things like there's a free text support line. There's free talk, support lines.

But my story was that I didn't want that. I didn't want to just talk to some random volunteer about my experience. And I know those volunteers now they're like totally lovely people, but as a woman going through it, I was like, no way in heck, am I trusting some random person on the other side of a line to like process this with me?

I don't know who they are. I don't know what they're going to say. There's a huge mass in unplanned pregnancy and abortion world known as crisis pregnancy centers. So can I trust whoever's over there? Like, do they have an agenda or are they going to try and like convert me right Christianity? Like what?

I just didn't find anyone. I felt like was speaking what I was feeling and I didn't have any. I could trust to help me figure it out. I couldn't find an abortion coach. I couldn't. And there's no therapy directory. 

Monica: No. 

Amanda: If there is someone, please send it to me. Cause I've asked so many therapists, but like there is no directory of therapists that are ready to get into this work with you.

So most of my clients come to me. They haven't even told their therapist. They're afraid they're a therapist. Anyway, this is like a crazy long way to answer. I knew I had to do this work because I was in the middle of, it was, it was in the middle of this gigantic hole and I want, well, 

Monica: I know, and I love your answer, you know, it's like, I think, I don't think what I'm hearing is is that everywhere you turned, you saw the void, you saw the gap.

Here's where I think this. Uh, very dualistic kind of black or white wrong, or right, right. Sinful or wholly does not serve because there's a wisdom that stands with an and in the middle that is always inviting us to remember that we get to be both. We get to be all event and to go through an experience like an abortion and to be allowed to have your feelings as they come up to be allowed to explore all of what it brings for your own personal journey is the gift you give yourself.

And yet nobody out there is going to give you permission to do it. It has to, at the end of the day, be your own self. I'll share my experience of this, you know, at 16, when I had my, you know, unexpected pregnancy, I grew up in a home where nobody talked about sex. I mean, it just was not. And I think that this is true for, yeah, for many.

And as the daughter of a former Catholic nun, you can only imagine that how that would have gone down. Right. And at the time my parents were actively pro-life. I mean, they were standing, they were the ones standing outside in some cases of planned parenthood centers with pictures of dead babies. So like, you can only imagine how I felt walking through my living room and seeing these posters.

And I'm, don't tell me that there wasn't, you know, some other, I mean, talk about having some. Real sophisticated feelings about the whole thing and just, just not having the tools or the insight or the maturity at that age to cope with and just doing the best that I could. I mean, I was very, very clear and I, the interesting thing was I hid it from my parents.

The next interesting thing was my mother found the receipt from the clinic. And instead of actually coming and talking to me about it, she simply left it on my pillow so that I would know that she saw it. And then she still didn't want to talk about it. And it wasn't until. I got pregnant again in my twenties and came home and told her that I was, I had basically decided to have it and I had a miscarriage, but there was still kind of this, like, pretending not to know that there was this elephant in the room.

And I, I will never forget having this moment where I had finally accepted that I was pregnant. And then I think at week 12, I miscarried and I loved the man I was with at the time. Like I loved him, but it became very clear to me that he was not, it was like he reluctantly embraced kind of his role and proposed out of a feeling of obligation.

And I was just like, no, And when I miscarried, there were so many complicated emotions and I was so upset and I was so relieved. It was like relief and grief were so present to me. And, but the howling that like the guttural crying, I, I will never forget my mother standing at the bottom of the stairs. I was literally like keening with this agony and she couldn't come to me.

She couldn't embrace me. She couldn't be with me in that moment of like, just utter I, what was I feeling? I, I, you know, it's like, I was feeling this incredible mix of like yes, relief and grief and guilt and sorrow and shame. And. Uh, aloneness. I'll never forget like the feeling that came over me of being utterly alone and just also having this weird compassion for my mother come to me in this moment of like, plus her heart. She can't even deal with this. 

Amanda: Yeah. So much fear that I wrote down the words couldn't be with me. And that's how you wrote it about your mother. That's how I felt about, or you said it about your mother. That's how he felt about the whole world. Like no one wants to be with me here. I had a moment of like raw roaring depth of like grief and aloneness.

When I remembered there was a local organization called empty arms. And that was exactly what I felt. Uh, I felt like. I had the support option and I couldn't, I just, my arms were gone. I don't know. There must be something about arms and like maternal and holding and nurturing and like supporting. But it was this really strong feeling.

And I went to the website and it was so clear right away that I was not welcome that my empty arms didn't count because I chose abortion. And so I felt that like loneliness, you felt it in this case with the miscarriage. And I felt that after the abortion, like how sad that the world can't be with me in this.

And I know statistically, I'm not alone. 

Monica: Oh my God. I mean, 

Amanda: How much fear and pain exists in the world that no one wants to \be. With me in this moment. That's right. 

Monica: Yeah. And that's that void? That's that void? That is, there's still an incredible stigma around it. And I want to, I also want to normalize this for our listeners a little bit more if you don't mind, because while statistics are statistic, I do think there's something about having a little bit more insight around them.

And I wondered if you have any on hand that you would be interested in sharing with us. What are the statistics?

Amanda: I am not a numbers person, but they help. I remember a very clear moment in my car, in the parking lot outside. I was so fortunate to be able to have my abortion in my general women's health practice.

So my regular OB GYN office, I remember sitting in the parking lot Googling, do mothers choose choose abortion? Because here at it was very intelligent, very liberal. I was first doula. I went to midwifery school and I was sitting in that parking lot feeling like I must be the only mother in the world who would ever choose abortion.

And the statistic is over 65% of abortions are with people. People who are already mothers were already parents. I was like, the disconnect in that moment was shocking. How does. Match my loneliness right now. Hmm. If 65% of abortions are happening with people, who've already carried pregnancies and had children.

Why do I feel so alone right now? Like, and I was as well versed in women's health and parenting as, as they come. I mean, obviously I didn't know it all because I felt so alone. I remember that statistic just shocking me. The one in three and one in four numbers get bounced around a lot too, but I think it's, it's closer to one in four people with uteruses have an abortion by at least one abortion, 

Monica: At least one. Yeah. That's the other thing I was going to say 

Amanda: So common to have multiple, like 

Monica: I had three and, and, and here's the other thing that's the other thing is like, when I got to the point where I. Then a fourth unplanned pregnancy. Right. You can only imagine how kind I was to myself. 

Amanda: Very kind loving, so loving, so loving.

Monica: And what was really interesting was I, the man that I was with at the time that I loved so much, he ended up actually dying from a brain tumor, a massive brain tumor, not too long later. Um, actually my S my second son, or sorry, my, my second child, not my second son. Cause they only have one son. Um, I named after him, his name was Ken Hart and it's Shaw heart.

And cause this man was love. He was what I got when we got pregnant was I got to tell him. I got to finally like share my story with somebody who I knew would not judge me. And he was the first person in my life at that time in my mid twenties that I who's the first person I ever felt safe enough with to tell him without editing, without saying, well, I've had one or I've had two, but like, oh, to say three.

Yeah, that was inconceivable to me. How could I, how could I be forgiven? And that's what came up for me was forgiven. And what I finally got was like, no, nobody needs to forgive. I need to forgive myself. Yeah. 

Amanda: And it doesn't matter how many people did forgive you until you forgive yourself. You won't receive that.

You know, the whole world could be standing up and saying, course you chose abortion. Like you are forgiven. We have no judgements and you wouldn't have believed it until you did the work yourself. 

Monica: Right. And that's the other thing is that, you know, it's, there's also this, I know that our mutual friend, Karen Anderson, who works with mothers and daughters, and I love her, her all of what she says about abortion, because she's like, I never felt bad.

I never felt, I didn't, I never I'm asking for forgiveness. Like I don't need forgiveness. Like I grew up with all this Catholic guilt. And so like, again, there's this way that we can assume that all women feel this way, but that's not her truth. And I loved that she was unapologetic about it because she taught me something.

Amanda: Yeah. I remember being so jealous of those women. I was like, what, why do I have to feel so shitty about this? What am I doing wrong? Why? And that's, that's the pro-choice abortion is healthcare narrative that I had adopted if it's healthcare. And if it's like, why do I feel so bad? If it's this big empowered, amazing choice I'm making for myself, why do I feel so shitty?

And I remember being so jealous, I want to be one of those women. Who's just like proudly shouting her abortion. And I am now proudly showed him my abortion. With the grief and the shame and the, I mean, I've worked through it all. I don't have all that and that's the magic, but yeah. I remember just longing to like, have that story of, yeah, it was no big deal.

I just moved on. Right, right. Am I like heaving and sobbing? And like in this deep reckoning and you just moved on, like, what am I missing here? 

Monica: Right. And that's where again, I think we can be our greatest, like each other's greatest teachers. If we were to feel like we gave ourselves permission to have this conversation in a bigger way, because there's no shame here.

And it's, and let's be clear too, that it's not like any of this. I can look back and say, what were there some aspects of me that were re reckless? Yes. Were there some aspects of me that were naive? Yes. Were there some aspects that like it doesn't, but that's just it, right? It's like, as soon as you start defending or explaining, it's like, you're getting into some really slick territory because there's this way that, that we tend to want to position it in such a way that it can be more palatable, be more acceptable that, yeah.

So I think that this is a perfect time to read another excerpt. Why can't wait. You can't wait to hear it. Right. Okay. Here we go. 

You don't, you can't be forgiven for a mistake. You didn't make, there are moments when it all feels like a nightmare. Desperate for relief. You beg for forgiveness. Anything that might make the pain stop solace is destined to come, but it will arrive with acceptance.

Now forgiveness abortion was always meant to be part of your story. There is no need for forgiveness in a perfectly executed plan, abortion. Wasn't a mistake. It was a summon calling you into your life, calling you into your purpose, calling you into your fullness. Forgiveness is an illusion. Your life is here now this way as it's always meant to be.

Amanda: Mm 

Monica: Hmm. Who wrote that? And for, Hey, 

Amanda: Who wrote that? Where'd that come from? Interesting. My answer to who wrote that? You wrote that like you, the collective, you, the babies. Sometimes I think my spirit baby Ray wrote these. I don't know. But what I think is so interesting as you were reading is that I was not raised religious.

I was raised with very liberal parents who were Catholic. They went to Catholic school and their parents were fair, you know, like pretty devout Catholic, but I was not raised with any religion. I remember begging to go to church because all my friends went to church and like, it's the thing you do. Like, I want to know what it's about.

And I still, so my guilt and confusion and grief and shame didn't come from personal religious story. But it certainly came from the like cult, like the influence of particularly Christianity on our culture. Yeah, I think that was confusing to me for a little while too. Like I'm not, it's not God's forgiveness.

I'm looking for like, what does that even mean? I feel like a lot of times we hear that word and it's like, it's so connected to God and to Christianity, I didn't have that. Like I was not looking for God's approval on my decision. God helped me make my choice. And that's just like my God's spirit universe, but I still felt it so deeply.

Like I still wanted the forgiveness. It was just my own. It was just, I needed to forgive myself. 

Monica: Well, I think you're bringing up something so powerful and important to notice, which is that there is a way that, you know, I call it like death by a thousand tiny paper cuts that we get the message that our body is an hours that our life and our decisions are not ours to make.

At some point there was. I had this revelation that like nobody could ever judge me harsher than I had already judged or treated myself. I was like, go for it because you know what? I know what it's like to actually live with someone day in and day out that never. Ever ever gives you an inch. Yeah, that that's who I was to myself for a long time, was like, I put myself in a prison where like, I basically might've been naked on the end of the other, right behind the bars.

And I was like, maybe offering myself a crust of bread every now and again. Yeah. It was like when I finally got to the th the level of self abuse that I would heap on myself, you know, and all of the judgment that I had internalized from my culture. There's so many conversations here, but like, it's ultimately, it becomes a conversation about self love and self sovereignty, and about no longer letting the world define.

Because there's nobody that ever has anything on you when you've done the work yourself, when you had the reckoning yourself. 

Amanda: Yeah. Yeah. And this forgiveness being an illusion, it's just like, there's, there's nothing to forgive. This is you being you and taking your journey and learning your lessons. And even those words, learning your lessons can be twisted a little bit.

You're just here to do all the things and be all the things. And some of us learned her abortion and some of us learn through cancer and some of us learn through car accidents. It's like, there's nothing to forgive. This is just the journey like this is. 

Monica: And I think the end goal is always this evolution of consciousness and this evolution of compassion for ourselves.

And so if that's like the ultimate goal, it's like looking at the grit in between the event and how much further I still am from giving myself all the love and compassion that I need. So what gets really interesting here is when I think back to my mother down at the bottom of the stairs, witnessing me keen, but not being able to come to me right.

There was a point when I had to become. My own cherishing mother, when I had to cross the chasms and come to my own self and hold my own self in my own arms and kiss my own face and say, you're enough just the way you are. Even in this brokenness, even in this moment, even in this, in, in my case, right. I'm speaking for myself because my words are not for anybody else out there.

Yeah. And that's the other thing is like, we can no longer afford or pretend or assume to know another's journey. Yeah. 

Amanda: And even like, did your mother give you a gift? Yes. 

Monica: Yes. I mean, my mother in so many ways has been my greatest teacher and you know, there, I won't sit here and tell you that my armor doesn't come back on when I'm with her at times.

Right. Because you know, there's just, but even then, you know, I offer myself compassion. Like, you know, you can see me putting my hand on my heart over and over again because it's, it's my sign to love myself. It's like my unconscious sign at this point. Like I think of being with my mother. And sometimes I just end up touching my heart, even when I'm in her presence.

It's like my way of mothering myself and saying, it's okay, you've got this, you've got this, you know, it's okay. That she doesn't understand. It's okay. That she can't see you in this way. It's okay. It's okay. And you get to love her regardless. Just like you get to love yourself regardless. Yeah. And I'm not going to tell you it doesn't hurt.

Okay. It still hurts. But that gets to be here and it hurts less and less like the more I just be with it. 

Amanda: I think too, sometimes when I work with clients, we, we do really lean into a feeling. And when you lean into that hurt and like really feel it in a safe container, you access totally new information that you cannot access when you keep pushing it away.

The very things you're craving to learn are like inside that pain they're insights hurt. And if we keep pushing it away or asking other people to band-aid it with their opinions or their love or their compassion, we don't get to like the root of what we need. Like you have to, you have to go in and be with that hurt.

To find the thing that you're looking for. 

Monica: Yeah, you really do. I know that there's also kind of another conversation here that's begging to be revealed. I think, which is the conversation about how women's bodies are regulated and politicized, you know, in the world. And I'm going to mention it because I, I want to say, like I get, there's a whole nother conversation here.

It's not the conversation we're having today, but there's also just this whole other element. And I really, really loved that. Call yourself a certified feminist life coach. Why did you choose that? 

Amanda: Well, actually did an advanced certification in feminist coaching, which led me to the confidence in putting that on the front of the book. But I mean, I've always identified as a feminist. 

Monica: And what does that mean to you? Yeah, 

Amanda: It's been an interesting journey for me. I went to in my undergrad, I was a women's studies major and I've always had this tendency to play the devil's advocate role, which is super annoying for some people. Um, but I remember sitting in class like reading, like, you know, just like the depth of feminist bodies of work and kind of playing with it.

Like, what if I do want to be a stay at home? Mom? What if it's okay to want to just take care of your kids and your home? And like, I just don't remember. Really playing with all the, the layers of what, what feminism was. I don't even know that in all the study I've done and, you know, getting a certification that I have my own favorite definition of what it means to be a feminist.

But for me, it's like allowing it all to exist. If patriarchy shuts off a piece of my existence, that's a problem. Right. And feminism like opens the door for everything to exist. So, yeah, I think it's just like, in my work feminism means like allowing it all, just allowing, you know, and showing. As who we are and trusting and believing that that's enough.

Even when the world's telling us, it's not, 

Monica: I love that. So can I read another one? 

Amanda: Yeah, I'm dying. Okay. Did I write it though? That's the real question. 

Monica: This is the real question. Your thoughts will change over time. Time doesn't heal all wounds, emotional pain after abortion is sourced. In our thoughts, what we think is what we feel in time.

Thoughts, change, changing thoughts, changing feelings, tend to the gift. That is your mind. Your mind is where you will find peace. Your mind is where you will find freedom. Your mind is both the simplest and the most complex tool you have use it wisely. Or it will use you feed it, nourishing content, surround it with loving company, be patient with it.

But forever diligent, you were programmed to survive, but you were born to thrive. So what I love the most about this book is that it acts as an Oracle. 

Amanda: I agree. I use it. I use it that way myself. 

Monica: Well, you had been so gracious to send me a copy. And you had said that, and you had marked, you had marked one of them for me, which was the perfect one.

And all of these little letters are like letters to ourselves and. I especially loved what you said as you inscribed it, because you said for 16 year old Monica, and I hadn't even told you about my story when we met. And then you said for 23 year old Monica, and then you said for 89 year old Monica, which makes the book timeless.

Right. But it also is you could take out the word abortion yes. And use this book in so many ways. I mean, it's just, it's literally like love notes to yourself and they're just beautiful. I mean, I really am just wanting you to know how much I have loved, you know, just reading through many of these pages over the course of, you know, the last few weeks that I've had it. It's just really remarkable. 

Amanda: My dad sat at my kitchen table and he said, it's a zipper book that he so well, it's like, this is a per song. You can take out the word abortion and insert it for anything and that's life. And that's how I use it. I have done so much healing work around abortion. I don't, I'm open to there being more layers that are left unexplored, but at this point, it's just like, I've done that work.

I don't need this book to speak to me at the level of abortion, but I open it when I'm stressed about the pandemic. Right. I'm confused in my marriage or my parenting. Like I use it that way. And that was my hope in writing it. It's like, we're all just on this journey of there's the level of survival. And then there's the level of like acceptance and.

Letting a little bit of light in, and then there's the point where we're like, holy shit, I can thrive. Like I can actually go be so far beyond whatever expected. Yeah. The book, I think does take you on that journey. The beginning of the book is much more centered around those initial feelings and the deeper pain and it moves through and you get to grow as you read it.

Although I, I actually don't recommend to anyone just sit down and read it. I think it's a lot to digest. My recommended reading would just be to open random pages. 

Monica: Right. I will read one last one because I think it's, I think it's really powerful. And I really want to say to our listeners that, you know, if this episode has spoken to you.

I'm reading what? Four or five of these little excerpts, but this is a 209 page book and it's just absolutely beautiful. So did I read this one yet? I don't think I did. It's abortion is how you protected yourself. Nope. Okay. Abortion is how you protected yourself. Anything unplanned naturally brings about fear.

Fear. Isn't a bad thing. It is a human thing. Fear is a survival mechanism. When we accept that we can celebrate our fear. It's on our side. What we want when we are afraid is to be protected. Abortion is one of the ways we protect ourselves when we don't want what we have. We seek ways to cleanse ourselves of it.

This cleansing doesn't always look and feel. But we're in it for the long game. We're in it for the future that we desire. We protect ourselves by choosing abortion. This is our mark of wisdom, not our sin. 

Amanda: And what really struck me when you were reading that is, I think a lot of us think that we will have the procedure.

And then we'll feel better. Like, and then it, let me just there's these moments. I don't know if you remember the, this, but where you just can't get the abortion fast enough. Like just let it be over because then I can feel better and move back the rest of my life. It can go back to normal. And then for those of us who have more complex feelings around abortion, it's very confusing that it doesn't just feel better.

And so the thriving is just continuing to protect yourself and continuing to love and nurture yourself and not falling into that illusion that it's like the magic button that makes everything better. It's, it's a journey. Like it's just a journey. 

Monica: I have a little story to share. I have a friend that she was also a bridesmaid and then.

But like, we went to a couple years of high school together. And so she was with me during this time. And she actually became a psychiatrist later in her life, which is so fitting. But at the time we were just teenagers. And what she told me was something that I did, which was to go and get a box, go get a beautiful box and anything that I could no longer keep in my mind because it, it had no resolution that it was like it was a haunting, like it was a ghost.

And that's the way I felt so unresolved for so many years until I came to my own self forgiveness. And she told me to write a letter to whatever it was, this child, this spirit, this, and say whatever I needed to say in the letter and to put, and to seal the letter in an envelope and to just put it in the box that I would have placed to put those thoughts and those.

You know, in a way to honor the experience in a way that felt sacred to me and honest to God, like years later, I, that box ended up in my basement and my daughter was like, what's this beautiful box mom. And I was like, um, it's right. Like I, I, at first I was like, oh, and then I was like, you know what? You, you can open it.

Those are letters to myself at your age.

Amanda: Oh my goodness. Wait. This is as a teenager, 

Monica: a friend. Yes. I know. She, like I said, she became like a pretty well-known psychiatrist. Like yeah. She's I think she was always like, again, there's that destiny, right? Because she was like the one person that I told at that time, she only knew what I knew at that time, which wasn't that I was going to go on and have these other experiences.

But that was, that stayed with me. And, and I didn't only do it for those experiences, but other experiences in my life. And I, I never went back and opened those letters. I just left them sealed, but it was my own daughter that found the box that has, it has this beautiful border of carvings around it. And inside were all of these sealed envelopes.

And she was so curious. 

Amanda: Did you open them? Did you read? 

Monica: I didn't, I didn't need to, but I let her

Amanda: know. Wow. And I think I did look at one or two, but yeah, it opened a conversation. That's beautiful. 

And we have talked about, but a huge piece of my healing journey and that I invite all of my community and clients to explore is a relationship to the spirit of those babies.

It is my belief. I can't ever imagine it changing that they do come to us intentionally and that they know that they're not coming through. They know they're not going to be born and that they want a relationship with us. There are so many people who do not believe this. But I really have found the people who struggle the most with their abortions gather the most healing when they create that, when they cultivate that relationship and write those letters and to themselves, to the babies, to their future, to their past it's.

So it's such powerful work. And I always say, like, I talked to baby grace as I've named her all the time. Like I just consider her one of our family. I don't know if she's there. I don't actually see her. I don't actually hear her. I could just be making all this up like a crazy person, but it feels good.

And it allows me to move forward and create what I've created. And to just yesterday, I had worked with. Who was really, really struggling with her abortion. And yesterday months after I worked with her, she said, you, you suggested I create a relationship with that baby. And I have since done that and invited my family to also have a relationship with that meeting, including my mother and everything has changed the way.

So again, it's not for everyone, but I think the act of writing those letters is so deeply healing. 

Monica: I agree. It really, really helped me. It really did. Yeah, it just it's, it's like finding these, these ways to be with ourselves, even when we can't be like, I D I wanted a place to put it, so I didn't have to have it banging around in my psyche anymore in my everyday kind of world.

It was like, and her, her thought or what I remember her telling me is just remember, it's in the box, it's in the box, it's in the box. And you can go back to the box when you need to, when you're ready to. But like for now, it's in the box. 

Amanda: It's ]like a letting go without a disposal. 

Monica: Right. 

Amanda: You're not like it's a letting go, but you can always, it's like, you get to detach, but you don't have to forget.

Monica: Right. You want to come back. Yeah. Well, you know, I knew we were going to have a rich conversation and I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful that this conversation is happening when it's happening. I'm so honored that you said yes to co-creating this episode with me and I'm so in awe of your stand for other women in this great void, you know, and, and you're filling the void in such a way that is so loving and so accepting and, and so tender, like, I really see your, your commitment and your love for yourself, which shows me how committed and loving you are with your clients.

And so really thank you so much. Thank you for your gift of this book in the world. Thank you for gifting it to me. I will cherish it. And so, you know, before you go, will you tell our listeners where they can find you? 

Amanda: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much. It's so wild to be here. And I absolutely treasure it.

Like this is not where I would have ever imagined my life leading me. And even just this week, I got a letter from someone who had found my work and I, I just was sitting at the kitchen table and I said out loud to my family. Do you guys realize what I do in the world? Like this is mind blowing, like how many people need this?

So thank you. Thank you for sharing. I'll just keep writing the things that come through. We try and take some credit, but honestly, I think all this work is just happening in this weird, bizarre, spiritual way. Everything. All of my work is at Amanda star Kingsley. It is my given middle name. So that's my website, Amanda star Kingsley.

Um, all my handles. Most of my work lands in Instagram. I have the podcast called speaking light into abortion and I'm super accessible. Like I love when people send me messages. My clients have full access to me. We text, we have ox, we cry, we laugh. Anyone can reach out to me for anything they need. And sometimes I just help them find resources.

People need resources that are not me. And so there's just a lot of connection happening. 

Monica: Yeah. So good. So, so good. All right. Well, yeah. And for, you know, for our listeners, I'll be sure to have Amanda's links in the show notes. And of course, you know, other conversations, I'm sure that'll come from this conversation, but I'm really, really happy with all that was revealed today.

So wishing all of my listeners an incredible rest of your day, and until next time more to be revealed, we hope you enjoyed this episode. For more information, please visit us@jointherevelation.com and be sure to download our free gift, subscribe to our mailing list or leave us a review on iTunes. We thank you for your generous listening and as always more to be revealed.