[There is no opening clip this episode] CLARA: Welcome to Episode 308 of Physical Kids Weekly, “Six Short Stories About Magic.” I’m Clara. DANI: And I’m Dani CLARA: And we started today’s episode out without a clip to honor what makes this episode so unique: a 10-minute segment about Marlee Matlin’s character, Harriet, that has no sound whatsoever. DANI: We’re also doing something else with this episode that we’ve never done before -- we’re talking to two guests, who are paired together on this episode. Our first guest plays Fen on The Magicians, and you’ve met her before. Please join us in welcoming the beautiful, the talented, the Cheetos-obsessed Brittany Curran back to Physical Kids Weekly. CLARA: Welcome, Brittany! BRITTANY: Hi, that’s my favorite way to be introduced. [LAUGHTER] CLARA: Our second guest is new to the podcast, but her character is one of the most central, iconic, and, I think, even controversial characters on The Magicians. Julia Wicker has experienced the full gauntlet of human emotions. She’s even lost her shade, and through all of it, Stella Maeve has portrayed her with grace and empathy. Stella, welcome to Physical Kids Weekly. STELLA: Aww thank you. Thank you. Happy to be here. CLARA: We’re so happy to have you both here and Brittany, thank you so much for suggesting having you on as a pair. I think this is going to be real fun. BRITTANY: Yeah, we had so much fun working together that I thought it would be cool to be [sing-song-y voice] together again. STELLA: Yeah! [LAUGHTER] DANI: Yes. CLARA: So both of your characters have been through a lot in the last season or so. Brittany, your character Fen did something she’s never done before in the last episode -- she put her needs first and asserted herself with Eliot. So what has it meant to you, Brittany, to be able to play a character who goes through that kind of transformation? BRITTANY: It meant a lot because I, as you know, have internalized Fen so much, and so to see her grow up in this archaic world and then get married to a man who puts her in the corner all the time, and kind of staying in this archaic belief of ‘oh the woman has to stay at home while I go off and adventure and you have to stay here and not really have a say in any decisions’. And to finally tell Eliot, ‘I have feelings too and I am upset and this is bothering me truly and deeply and I need to go off by myself’. When I read that scene, I cried. I was so excited – and there’s a lot more to be said. Yeah, it meant a lot to me, and it meant a lot to Fen– finally being able to say that stuff and do her. And then finally meet the most wonderful woman who has probably been the nicest person ever to Fen, which is Julia. [LAUGHTER] STELLA: Yeah, it’s cool. I was just gonna say it’s really cool because I feel these two women help each other find their voices in different ways. BRITTANY: Yeah. STELLA: Through Fen finding hers, Julia comes back to herself in a weird way. You know what I mean? So both of these women developing new skill sets with each other’s support that they wouldn’t normally have, I guess. BRITTANY: I completely agree. CLARA: That’s awesome. BRITTANY: Absolutely. DANI: Yeah. So, Stella, your character’s gone through a pretty big transformation, too. Most of last season dealt, in one way or another, with the aftermath of Julia’s traumas. This season, she’s suddenly the most powerful magician on Earth, but the thing that makes her powerful is directly tied to the worst thing that ever happened to her. So how do you think that changes the way she understands and wields her power? STELLA: Ugh, the irony of life, right? That’s a great question. I think that its such a good metaphor, and I can’t speak for anyone but myself, but I know it to be true for me. Like God, the things that drive you as a human, and the things that drive me, and the things that have made me a better person, and have made me who I am today came from a lot of good, but came from strife, and came from the awful things that have happened. And they shape you, and they make you, and it’s sort of like, without the bad, the good can’t exist. So without these things that happen in life that can be really traumatizing and awful, they are also what make you more powerful and make you sort of be able to exist in this universe. And not only exist, but coexist and also help people. My mom was a victim and is my hero and is one of the most amazing people I’ve ever met, and now what she’s done with that, she’s a therapist and a social worker and she helps people every day. You know what I mean? You go through these things in life that are so awful and then it can propel you and that is what Julia has [done]. She’s got this god-like power and she got it from an awful source, so at first she doesn’t want it. She hates it; it’s a constant reminder of the rape and everything that was taken from her and everything that happened to her. And then once you accept yourself and can accept that these things have happened instead of being in denial, and fully embrace yourself, and love yourself for it because you have grown and its made you who you are, then you’re not only okay with you being you, but be in your power and help the world too. BRITTANY: I like that. DANI: I really think it comes back to one of the first amazing quotes from the show and also the book, “magic comes from pain”. I feel like your strength and all the beautiful moments in life still come from pain as well. [CLARA and STELLA talk over each other] STELLA: Oh sorry! CLARA: I was just gonna say its… I think Lev has talked about how his views on that have evolved over time, and one of the things I think is really powerful is that saying “magic comes from pain” doesn’t mean that you have to experience pain to have that power, but it does mean you can make something great out of even the worst experience in your life. DANI: Yeah. STELLA: Exactly. I like that. It’s interesting getting older because when we’re young, we think being an artist has got to come from this chaotic, crazy, stressful, awful pain or trauma or anger or just a struggle that’s wretched. When you get older you realize that ‘I can actually make great art without having to put myself through this’. And then it’s sorta like when these things happen to you– and I’ve been a victim, I’ve had a sexual assault happen to me as well – it’s like the hardest thing to get over, especially as a woman. [With] what’s been happening with everything in the world, but it’s really self-acceptance and what you said is perfect. It doesn’t have to come– you don’t have to create pain to make great art or be a goddess or help the world, but if terrible things do happen, it’s okay to look, to reflect back on it, to utilize that to propel you into the light, like into the goodness rather than to stay in the dark. BRITTANY: Yeah, it’s funny you say that because I’ve absolutely found that--obviously I use pain and situations I’ve been through in life, both good and bad, to inspire. It helps me to figure out my roles and how a person would react. But I find that using that stuff from my past, and accepting it, and moving on, and using it for good, is different from being in a place of stress or pain or whatever while I’m doing it. So I just know for me, like literally let’s say I’m on set and I have a really emotional, painful scene that I’m doing. The easiest way for me to do it is actually to be in a place of peace for Brittany, like where I am in my life. Because when you start from a place of peace and happiness and acceptance, then you can allow yourself to really go there and really honor what the character is going through. So it’s this combination of accepting things and being through them, but then finding your own peace. STELLA: Like you are the vessel that it comes through, rather than to live in that or to fight yourself on it. I feel like Julia was fighting herself for so long– and Fen too– I feel like they were themselves and instead of doing that, they found each other and were able to love themselves. BRITTANY: Yeah, God that’s so true. CLARA: Ugh, that just makes me more excited about this pairing. I mean, it was such a great episode. STELLA: Yeah. CLARA: One of the things we keep coming back to on our show and I think keeps coming up in the conversations around The Magicians, is that it makes space for characters -- particularly female characters -- to be flawed and complicated and to go through all sorts of awful things, but also to maybe not always be likable. I think fans can sometimes struggle with that. And so Stella, I want to ask you first, what would you say to fans who really struggle with Julia’s flaws? STELLA: Gosh, you know it’s so hard because it’s really hard to A) be a human in general and to deal with your own mistakes and then to play someone who goes through life and may not necessarily do things the way I, Stella, would do them. Or maybe I disagree with certain things. Y’know it’s not my place to judge Julia, as Stella. It’s not my place to judge this character or to judge what the writers have written for her. It is just for me to accept it and do what is on the page and what is written and bring that to life as best as possible. I wish that we lived in a world where people had more empathy and were more patient and understanding because the whole thing is the journey. So you’re gonna watch people mess up and you’re gonna watch awful things happen and you’re gonna watch great things happen. And hopefully if you, as a human, or your character evolves--which is the ride we all wanna take– that people can be along for that journey rather than just be predisposed to anger and judgement and frustration. I guess that is what I’d have to say. I try not to judge the things that happen or the things that are written whether or not I would agree with them. And a lot of the time we do have to say things or do things that are definitely uncomfortable and we don’t, y’know. I guess I would just ask for people to sorta like take a step back and just have some patience and sorta just like, listen and learn and watch. My mom has this great saying, “learn from other people’s mistakes, you don’t have enough time to make them all yourself.” CLARA: Oooh. That’s good. STELLA: So it’s like, yeah. It’s Elenor Roosevelt, I think. It’s cool. It’s like, you’re not gonna live long enough to do them all yourself, so maybe try to watch what happens when someone else [does] and try to be better, y’know? DANI: Well we pretty much go on rants all the time about how much we love Julia’s character despite her flaws. STELLA: That makes me happy. Cuz I love her too and everybody’s so hard on her. God, man. She’s so strong. DANI: Julia’s always been my favorite, my favorite since I read the books. I mean, you’ve done an amazing job– STELLA: Thank you, Dani. That’s awesome. DANI: --making her come to life. You’re welcome. So we do have a question for Brittany. What’s one thing you’ve learned from Fen? BRITTANY: God, now I’m thinking about Julia. [LAUGHTER] Now I gotta shift back into Fen. What’s one thing I’ve learned from Fen? Gosh, I’ve learned a lot from her. I don’t know… I would say I’ve learned– let me think this through. I’ve never thought about this in this particular way before. Y’know, throughout the seasons I’ve mentioned that Fen’s grown a lot, and in the beginning, when we first meet her, she’s very different from me than how she is now. I think we’re slowly aligning more and more as the story goes on. I think the things that I’ve learned from her is really recent and it was in the scene where she tells Eliot she needs to take her own space and kinda heal for herself. And I think it’s really important for us to remember that you don’t have to be happy all the time, you don’t have to be likable. Because I have this thing of wanting to be likable, and pleasing everyone, and making everyone happy. And what does likable even mean? And sometimes being not super happy and needing to like, turn off the happy, pretty, everything, and just like going in a corner and dealing with that on your own is important. I think I’ve learned that from her. Like not needing to impress everybody, not needing to be there for this other person, but being there for yourself. Cuz then you can be there for people more. If you’re not there for yourself, you will never be able to be there for other people truthfully. CLARA: Yeah, absolutely. STELLA: I agree. CLARA: I liked what you said about what is likable. There’s a quote in one of my favorite books, which is Contact by Carl Sagan and I can’t remember exactly what the word is, but it’s something kinda similar where it talks about how a man being… I’m gonna go with likable because I can’t remember the word. But a man being likable, and how that’s not the same as being liked. BRITTANY: That’s great. That’s a very good point. CLARA: We make ourselves be this version of what we think other people will want and it’s not necessarily what they want. At best, I think it’s inoffensive and it cuts off a really big portion of who we are. And I think women especially are prone to doing this, to accommodating other people. BRITTANY: You’re so right. It’s funny I was taking this writing course or something and I wish I could remember this exact quote, but it – oh God I’m gonna butcher it, but it was talking about writing screenplays, but this applies to any kind of writing or any kind of storytelling, and it said, “specific is universal’. Meaning if you write a story you think anybody will like, that everybody will identify with, then no one will identify with it. STELLA: It’s so crazy that you’re saying this. Sorry, I’ll let you finish. BRITTANY: I’m just saying, that the stories that we watch, like Moonlight, for instance. This beautiful film that won Best Picture last year, most people have not gone through that exact story in their lives, but we all can find something brilliant and beautiful and we can all understand something about it because it’s so wonderfully specific and exact. What were you gonna say, Stella? STELLA: I was just gonna say, I went through this weird, I was having this existential crisis. I go through various phases in my life every few years where I’m known to delete all social media and just go off of the grid. And then you’ll get a job like The Magicians where they’ll put it in your contract that you have to get back on it. So it’s roped me back in because of like, formalities. But I went through this thing recently where I was like, man, I’m not on it enough and I don’t tweet enough, or I don’t do this enough. So it was like a short time span and I was around some people who were doing it to do it, and with my social media, I’ve always posted things that spoke to me or something that was cool. An interesting photo or just a cool quote. And it wouldn’t be every day but it would be authentic. Whatever it was. CLARA: I remember your tribute to Prince when he died. Because it was that. It was really authentic. STELLA: Yeah. I’m in love with him. Like he’s my… I don’t know. He’s my guru. He’s like one of my biggest influences. Like he keeps me going. But yeah. I went through this weird thing a couple of weeks ago where I was like, I can’t just do this to do it. Like I’d rather not do it and pick it up every three months and have it be authentic than do this every day and not even believe what I’m doing or what I’m saying. It’s kinda like, who is this person? I had a moment of, this isn’t me and I don’t wanna do this just to gain more followers or just to do it because this is what you’re supposed to do. The followers, or the people you connect with, you’ll connect with when you’re authentically yourself, rather than trying to appease the masses and create this thing that’s inauthentic. It was Summer I was talking to about it, because she was like, I gotta get more followers. And what I’ve learned is the followers will come when you are okay with you and it won’t just be followers. It’ll be the right people you want on your team, and we can follow each other. And it’s just funny that you’re bringing this up because I feel that you’re 100% right and I just went through something like this in my life. BRITTANY: Yeah totally. STELLA: Like, what are we doing this for and why? And who is it we want to speak too and what is the message we want to send to people through our art? BRITTANY: Yeah, absolutely. DANI: We were just telling Felicia why we think for our podcast is semi-successful is because we are always passionate and authentically ourselves. STELLA: Totally. DANI: And it’s like, that’s what it’s about. STELLA: Yeah, yeah! It’s not about a popularity contest. It’s about embracing who you are, and being different, and being able to talk about that in an open forum, and connect with people. CLARA: It’s funny because I think this has come up in like all of our interviews this season [BRITTANY: Really?] cuz we talked about similar stuff with Felicia about how she realized she sort of became successful at a time where she didn’t know what she wanted, so it was a process of figuring out that she still had to pursue the things she wanted and not try to fit herself into this box that other people wanted. And Arjun was talking about some similar stuff. I don’t remember as much of the details of that because it was in January, but it seems to be the theme of this season of our podcast, so it’s neat that it’s coming up again. BRITTANY: Well that’s good. STELLA: That’s a good thing. I support it. BRITTANY: Yeah, me too. DANI: Yeah, we were gonna follow up with the same question for you, Stella. What have you learned from Julia? STELLA: Oh gosh. But I feel that’s the same thing I answered. [LAUGHTER] I guess to be able to forgive yourself. Like to be able to forgive yourself and to love yourself through the flaws. I’ve learned that through and from her. To sort of like, be able to move through it, whatever it is that’s going on, to take it to the other side and be who you are instead of living in denial or not accepting, to accept every part. She’s helped me with that. CLARA: I actually had a conversation with my therapist pretty recently that was kinda about seeing that some of my friends--I have some friends who have their own struggles that they go through, but they really seem able to do the whole being authentically themselves really naturally, and they seem to be able to assert themselves in ways that I can’t. Like, I’m pretty assertive on the business side of things, but personally, it’s a really hard thing for me to be vulnerable in that way. And how one of the things I think I’ve learned from them is it’s okay. It’s okay to fall apart sometimes. [STELLA: Yup] It’s okay to take the space that you need. And if I would take care of them, and support them through that, I should probably support myself too. [LAUGHTER] BRITTANY: Yeah. STELLA: It’s true. Also, side note: Woooo! Therapy’s awesome. BRITTANY: Yay therapy! Yeah, I know, I couldn’t agree more. CLARA: Also a theme of our podcast. BRITTANY: Yeah. STELLA: That’s great. Love it. BRITTANY: One of the things Stella and I were talking about the more we worked together and the more we thought about it, was how on the surface you wouldn’t necessarily think Fen and Julia are similar if you were to look at their two storylines. But the more we talked about it, wow. Certain really important things are really similar, like have been aligned. God, what was that– STELLA: I remember when we had that conversation. We had a come to Jesus moment. We were like, oh my god! It was very synchronitive. BRITTANY: It was like all of these things a row were super similar, of being empowered in their own way– STELLA: Oh wait, I remember! [They were] being ripped away from everything that they knew. Their worlds were shattered. So like Fen leaving Fillory. Julia being top of her class and having everything handed to her and then going–. And then [Fen] coming to Earth, and the casualties and the luxuries were ripped away. And sort of like everything that they had known or thought they knew, they had to relearn and reknow and were sort of loners by themselves. Fen had no one, Julia had no one, and they kinda had to fend for themselves. Right? BRITTANY: That was exactly it and you added onto some of it too. Like having these luxuries in different ways and having it ripped away. And then having people go [with] life without them. And having adventures without them. Going back to the very, very beginning, like Julia not getting into Brakebills with her best friend, and going on this huge adventure. And with everything in Fillory and Eliot going to get magic and leaving Fen behind and having her not be a part of getting magic back, even though she lives in this magical world. And Julia is a Magician. STELLA: And had it not been for Fen, he wouldn’t even had been the King of Fillory. BRITTANY: Right! STELLA: You know what I mean? BRITTANY: Or known about the Muntjac! I like to take credit for that, that Fen knew about the Muntjac. CLARA: She did! She knew about the Muntjac. In the last episode we had you on, she knew about the sword being not real. BRITTANY: Right, right. And that’s what I love about Fen and Julia now. It hasn’t really shown up yet, but the incredible kindness that they both end up coming to in spite of all the pain that they’ve had and being outsiders. How kind, I can’t say too much, but how incredibly kind and open they are. What were you gonna say? STELLA: Wait, I just remembered something, but I don’t know if it’s a spoiler alert. How far… what episode…? BRITTANY: You don’t remember what episode–? CLARA: We’re on 308, so here. We’re actually gonna go into an episode recap in a second, so why don’t we save that for after that. But Brittany, we do have one fun more question for you. BRITTANY: Okay cool. CLARA: So I don’t know if you’ve listened to our last few podcasts. Don’t blame you if you haven’t. Super busy, I understand. But we’ve been promoting a new ship for Fen. So what we want to know is– BRITTANY: Oh, yeah yeah yeah! CLARA: Do YOU think Fen should leave Eliot for Todd? BRITTANY: I would pick Todd for literally anyone. [LAUGHTER] DANI: I know. This season I’ve just come into so many new ships that I just don’t know what to do. I’m just to the point where can everyone just be together? Like everyone. BRITTANY: Just one big, happy. STELLA: I could see an orgy. BRITTANY: I just want a crazy magical orgy. CLARA: We had one of those this season! BRITTANY: That’s what I want. I know, but I want to be in it. [LAUGHTER] BRITTANY: I was at the wrap party with Sera and I said, why does Fen never get invited to the orgies? And then she reminded me that Fen DID get invited to an orgy in the second season, Fen just said no. And I was like, oh that’s a good point, that was my fault. Let’s have ANOTHER magical orgy now that Fen’s more liberated. [LAUGHTER] CLARA: Alright– BRITTANY: I mean, not that I would– STELLA: James is like, wut. [LAUGHTER] DANI: No, but honestly though, Todd is probably perfect for Fen. BRITTANY: This is exciting to me. I love this. DANI: I just love him because he’s kinda like one of those ridiculous side characters that show up every once in a while, which I love. Like Adam’s amazing. BRITTANY: Yeah, he’s so great. So funny. STELLA: Adam’s great. DANI: Yeah, he’s so funny, and it’s like, do you adlib all your lines? And he’s like, not all of them. But his delivery makes it feel so authentic that it just feels like it’s him. [BRITTANY: Yeah] And I just feel like both his character is so authentic and so is Fen, so that’s why they would work together so well. BRITTANY: I think that would be hilarious. I would love to see them together. STELLA: Me too. It’d be cute. CLARA: They would be. And it would give Fen a chance to dominate, I think so. BRITTANY: Oooo. That’d be fun. STELLA: We wanna see that. CLARA: Alright, so episode time. So I’ll start out with a recap and then we can get everyone up to speed. This episode unfolds as a series of vignettes, starting with Penny, who encounters the prophet Cassandra (who coincidentally looks a lot like Alice) while he’s looking for the fifth key in The Underworld. By reading the pages she writes, Penny learns what the other magicians are up to. Quentin, Poppy, and Kady are helping Harriet break into the library, so they can retrieve the key and so she can steal the Alexandria Cell -- a battery with huge stores of magical power. Meanwhile, Alice barters with the head librarian for access to the books in the library, and Julia and Fen uncover the grotesque source of the magical powder Irene’s been hoarding. Lastly, this episode gives us 10 arresting minutes of Harriet’s backstory. As the head librarian’s daughter, Harriet was raised in the library, where her mother’s fearful and overprotective nature put her on a path to democratizing magic at any cost. Okay, recap done, so I’m gonna start with my usual question...Dani, what did you think of this episode? DANI: It was beautiful. I love this season in particular. Every episode is so different and genre-defying. I was telling this to Clara when I was texting her my feedback: Wow, it’s like every episode basically keeps upping the ante. Five is probably still my favorite; it was beautiful. But this one is pretty close behind it. I hadn’t seen anything like it on TV. CLARA: That’s the sort of the first question I have for you all– and I promise we’ll get into the Julia and Fen storyline quickly. This vignette with Harriet. This ten minutes of silence where all of the acting is done without sound and where all of the words are ASL, is I think really emblematic of the kind of daring and fearlessness that makes The Magicians unique. Like a quarter of the episode, like ten full minutes out of a forty-two-minute episode that has no sound. It’s not just like no words. There’s no foley, no music, nothing. But it totally, like it draws you in completely. What’s it like for the two of you, working on a show that takes such risks? Stella, we’ll start with you this time. STELLA: Gosh, I haven’t seen the episode so I can’t speak for that, but it sounds fantastic. That sounds really cool and I was thinking about it the other day and the fact that we’ve cast--or Sera has cast transgenders and done such a cool job of doing numerous things like this for our show which I love. It cultivates modern television making and it’s nice to just be different and try things. And also within that, not making a spectacle of it, or promoting it, or try to gain traction from it, but just allowing it to exist within the series and then people just uncover it themselves which is pretty neat. It’s pretty neat. CLARA: Do you feel like it gives you license to take more risks as an actress? STELLA: I think The Magicians is a cool playground to exercise things that… yes. The short answer is yes. I think it’s a cool show that is so chaotic and sporadic and random that it allows us to try things we haven’t tried before. And if it doesn’t work it’s okay because you can make it up in the next episode and you can try to figure something else out. You can try all these different, exercise all these different tools, and if something doesn’t work then you know to do it differently in the next episode or who’s to say? To the audience, we’re always Fen and Julia, but like in our own heads– and I can’t speak for you, Britt– I feel like we’re... I know I’m every day trying. Like I wonder if I tried it this way or today I’m going to do this or make this decision or this choice. And we do sorta get that leeway, so yeah. BRITTANY: Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree. STELLA: Yeah. BRITTANY: Yeah, it was super ballsy. I’d forgotten that that sequence was going to be completely silent and it was. It was brave and it was ballsy and I love it. And I think that a lot of people would be afraid to make a decision like that on such a big show and I think it’s important to make decisions like that because, and like Stella said, not make a spectacle out of it, and not like make some big thing about it and some big statement because not every single thing in life has a statement. Y’know what I mean? For people who are deaf, that’s their life. That’s who they are and it’s not a big statement every few seconds, you know? So it’s nice to just go through life and be like, oh, this is how (to the best of our abilities) how this person experiences life. And here’s this other character that is transgender or that is this, but at the end of the day, they’re just a human being going on their own path and I love how our show really honors that in people, just the peopleness of people. STELLA: “The peopleness of people”, I like that. DANI: I actually spoke about this recently with my girlfriend because she is not particularly fond of shows and movies that purposely try to push an agenda, like clearly 100%. And I notice that in The Magicians, it’s organic. It’s just happening. It’s not being pushed on you. BRITTANY: Absolutely. CLARA: And I think in this episode, it kinda matters that Harriet’s sequence is the last one because you’re seeing all these point of view sequences and you really get to see what’s different about them and it really does put you in different characters’s heads. So when you make that shift to her sequence, it just feels like, oh of course. Of course, this is the way this is going to be done because that’s the way she interacts with the world. BRITTANY: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I love that. DANI: It was so beautiful because of the way it ends with the glass breaking, and you can just hear everything all of a sudden. BRITTANY: Ugh, that gave me the chills just thinking about it again. That part was crazy! Yeah, the rainbow bridge. They shot that in a parking garage in downtown Vancouver. It looked way more magical on the show than in the parking garage. DANI: It looked really cool. When I saw the blood and the blood sigils, my first thought was my favorite anime, Fullmetal Alchemist. Like with the alchemy blood sigils and I was like that’s really cool. It looked really cool. BRITTANY: Yeah, yeah, it looked awesome. DANI: Yeah, so moving onto Julia and Fen. This is the first time we’ve had them paired up together. What were your reactions when you realized you’d be working together? Brittany, you first. BRITTANY: I was so excited obviously! I was so psyched because I love Stella and the first season I was on we never had anything together and we didn’t get to see each other that much and I was like, wow I really like the vibes I’m getting from this girl, like I don’t really know her that well. And then the second season, I think we started hanging out a little a bit more– yeah, yeah we started hanging out and working out together– and we started hanging out in real life. And when I heard, I think we were at the gym in my building in Vancouver when I was like, by the way did you hear that the next– STELLA: That we’re working together, yup. BRITTANY: That we’re going to be working together? I don’t know if you’ve heard yet. And I was like, God I hope this rumor is right. Yeah I could literally not be more excited and then the way that Stella–and Stella can speak to this too, I don’t want to speak for her. But, actually I think you [Stella] were the one who pointed this out first, the way we work on set [STELLA: Yes] is really, really similar. Like the combination between being serious and doing our thing, but also being a little bit playful and enjoying the experience and yeah, it was awesome. How much did you love working with me, Stella? [LAUGHS] STELLA: I loved it. Like all the time. It was so nice to have female energy and to also have it so consistently and like, Brittany’s so giving. There’s no ulterior motives. Just like two actresses that wanna have and wanna give each other whatever they can to empower the other and not tear each other down. And there’s no hatred or jealousy or wanting to outshine. It was so cool. It was so effortless, and so nice, and so lovely, and not that way that women unfortunately, which I want to change so badly of ‘no, no, no I love you! You’re great’. You know that whole thing [BRITTANY: Yeah] and then just are waiting for you to twist your ankle so they can eat your soul. [LAUGHTER] [BRITTANY: Yup] It was like genuinely, what can I do to be here for you and help this scene be amazing. And also we would get totally exhausted and crack up giggling together. When one person was getting emotional, the other person would let them do their thing and it was just a great support system, and so much fun, and it was so nice because it didn’t feel like work. It felt like female empowerment and love and fun. It was so good. I love you. BRITTANY: Amen! I love you! CLARA: Aww. DANI: So much love. STELLA: So cool. It’s just so nice. BRITTANY: Yeah. CLARA: So you’ve both called this an ‘unusual pairing’ in previous interviews. What do you think makes this pairing interesting? And Stella, we’ll start with you this time. STELLA: Okay. I think what makes this pairing unusual is that you would never think to put Fen and Julia together. If you’re watching the show, they’ve never had any other interactions. They don’t come from the same world. They aren’t intertwined in the same storyline. So that’s what makes it unusual. But when you see them together, it becomes so not unusual which is cool and surprised me [BRITTANY: Mhm.]. I remember when--what did we say it was like? When we had first heard...gosh I just lost my train of thought, shit. Well, anyway. So I don’t think it’s that unusual anymore now that I’ve been in it. And I think once people see it, it won’t be as unusual as you would think, which is what’s so cool. BRITTANY: I completely agree. It’s like how relationships are in life too. You might see romantic or friendships, you might see two people and they might seem so different. But when you, as a person, get together with this other person, it’s like, wait. This makes SO MUCH sense and it looks like we don’t align, but when we do, oh yeah. This completely makes sense and we’re a lot more similar and compliment each other way more than I ever would have imagined. STELLA: Yeah. No, it’s crazy because it’s like they don’t write– like on the show they wrote me with Alice, or with Julia and Alice, they write things that are… I don’t know. Maybe that’s a bad example. I would say for Summer, for Margo and Julia, there’s like these… Summer always says, ‘why am I angry at Julia? I don’t have anything against Julia, I don’t get it’. So it’s nice to not. It’s nice to have me and Fen, Julia and Fen, love each other. Like female– CLARA: To be on the same team. STELLA: Yeah! BRITTANY: And to be comfortable disagreeing once and a while. STELLA: Instead of fighting. Yeah. BRITTANY: Like for Fen to be comfortable saying… I also feel like our characters don’t tip-toe around each other. Like Fen doesn’t have to tip-toe around Julia. Like when Fen says, no I think Fairies are evil and I’m going to say this thing that’s going to come across as really offensive. Like she’s comfortable enough in saying it. And Julia’s comfortable enough being honest, like that’s unfair. STELLA: Without being nasty to each other. BRITTANY: Yeah. STELLA: They’re not nasty to each other, which is so nice. CLARA: Let’s talk about that scene, which is what I think you’re talking about. Fen is talking about the fairies and saying if the fairies here are slaves, then you’re better off, and I think Julia does this really good job of calling her out, but in a really compassionate way. Cuz what she says is just there’s nowhere where you’re better off if you have slaves. BRITTANY: Yeah. CLARA: And I think you can see that in Fen’s reaction as well. She gets it. She understands that this is a learning opportunity. It’s not just high-and-mighty-ness or something. BRITTANY: Yeah and I think, and I don’t wanna… tell me I might be wrong here, but with Fen’s saying that to Julia. I mean Julia’s SO empathic that I feel like she, and tell me if I’m wrong, I feel like she sees that Fen is not a person who actually likes slavery. Fen is just a person whose daughter was taken and died and literally one of the most traumatic things that could possibly happen to a person and now Fen is blaming it on the one fairy, but also all of the fairies. I feel like Julia probably sees that she’s not, oh I agree with slavery. [STELLA: No] But that the most awful thing should happen to the most awful people that did the most awful thing to me. STELLA: And I think because Julia used to think like that and was able to rise above it, and we watch her journey to rise above it even in this season, she says that to Fen essentially. She’s like Fen, we can be better than this, let’s do better [BRITTANY: Yes!], and let’s rise above it. And I remember actually that day on set. I forget who was directing, but I remember I said to them, I don’t want this to come off as snide or condescending. BRITTANY: I remember that. STELLA: I want to understand what– yeah, yeah yeah. I want to make sure we did a take where– and I remember they said, ‘we got that, that’s exactly what we got from it’. Cuz I wanted to be sure it wasn’t chastising and it was like, I feel you and I know where you’re at and I know we can do this better, I know we can make this better. CLARA: I know you said you haven’t had a chance to watch this episode again since it’s been cut, but from my perspective that’s definitely how it comes across. It’s really fantastic. STELLA: That’s good. BRITTANY: And that’s how it came across to me, every single take. That’s why I feel– STELLA: Me and Britt, you and I, we built that. BRITTANY: Yeah, yeah. CLARA: I really wanna see a web series which is just like Fen and Julia’s wine and cheese nights. [LAUGHTER] STELLA: We should do adventures. BRITTANY: Great idea. STELLA: We have characters. BRITTANY: That is so much fun. STELLA: Remember when we were doing self-tapes and Jason and Trevor, they were like, are you guys screaming at each other in the trailer? [LAUGHTER] BRITTANY: We were in Stella’s trailer and I was helping her put an audition on tape and it was a really emotional one and so we both started yelling and we were both crying and screaming. I got really into your self-tape and then we were doing it for two hours. And finally we heard a knock on the door and it was Trevor and Olivia and Jason and STELLA: They were like, what the fuck? They thought we were really– BRITTANY: At first they thought it was Stella alone in there. STELLA: They thought I was just being weird. BRITTANY: Then they were like, wait no, there’s another voice. [LAUGHTER] STELLA: Then they were like, are you guys hating? Yeah, they thought I was screaming to myself, which I guess Jason is like, used too. And they thought you and I were like, actually fighting. And then I was like, no. We’re okay. BRITTANY: It was all fake. STELLA: Just kidding! BRITTANY: We should warn people ahead of time before we do loud self-tapes like that in a trailer. CLARA: No, please don’t. It’s hilarious getting these stories. [LAUGHTER] DANI: Yeah. STELLA: It’s true. BRITTANY: Only cuz the lighting is so good in the trailers. That’s why we do it in there. STELLA: It’s so good in the trailers. It’s so good in there, man. CLARA: We’ve seen your selfies, there’s definitely got some good lighting in those trailers. BRITTANY: I know. That’s why I take all these asshole selfies in the trailers. Summer does too! It’s not just me! [LAUGHTER] STELLA: It’s true. Summer’s the Queen of Selfies. DANI: So this definitely seems like it’s just the start of Julia and Fen as a team. What do you think, ladies? Is this the beginning of a beautiful friendship? It seems like it. BRITTANY: I think so. STELLA: I think so! I hope so. BRITTANY: I just hope there’s more and more and more forever. STELLA: I hope we get–next year, I just hope they can write more for us and we get into some cool journeys CLARA: Some shenanigans. BRITTANY: I would love that. STELLA: Shenanigans. DANI: I feel like Julia should take Fen to like a rock concert or something. CLARA: Oh yeah! BRITTANY: I love the idea of Julia introducing Fen to Earth things CLARA: Or a rave. STELLA: And Fen should take Julia to like, go get weird in Fillory. [LAUGHTER] BRITTANY: Go do magical drugs in Fillory. I can’t imagine Fen on drugs. STELLA: It’d be great. DANI: That’d be a lot. Drunk!Fen was great though. BRITTANY: Oh right, that was the episode that just aired. I got to be drunk. That was really fun. DANI: Yeah. BRITTANY: I mean, it was iced tea, but yeah. [LAUGHTER] That makes me really feel like I was drunk. I really got into it. DANI: I love when Fen kinda like, looks at Alice and is like, you need to get your shit together. CLARA: Yeah. BRITTANY: Yeah. DANI: Your pain is not like my pain. BRITTANY: Yeah, like you can still get back what you lost. CLARA: But I think that was another great compassionate callout because she’s– BRITTANY: Yeah, it was definitely out of compassion. CLARA: Because she starts out like, this isn’t really the same problem. But the end message is, hey, you can do something about it, so go do it. So she really empowers Alice to get a move on. BRITTANY: Absolutely, yeah yeah. I like that. DANI: I actually love all of the pairings this season. Like back from the first episode with Julia and Josh– BRITTANY: Ugh, that’s one of my favorite scenes in the whole season– when Julia and Josh were chatting at the party. You guys were SO good in that scene. DANI: So good. STELLA: I remember shooting that. That was fun. If only I could blow smoke rings that turn into stars in real life. That would be fucking awesome. BRITTANY: That would be the best. CLARA: That would be good. DANI: It would be. BRITTANY: Or any smoke rings at all. STELLA: I’m good at regular smoke rings! BRITTANY: Are you? STELLA: Yeah, but I wish they were stars! [LAUGHTER] CLARA: Okay so there’s so many storylines that I think there’s no real way for us to get to all of them right now. So Dani, we should definitely add this to the list of episodes to talk about more when we do the season 3 retrospective. DANI: Sure. CLARA: But there’s one more thing I definitely want to mention: Cassandra. Dani, what do you think is up with that? DANI: I just assume that Cassandra is just related to Alice in some way. That would be the only thing that makes sense. Or Alice from another timeline somehow. CLARA: Yeah, I mean it feels like it has to be in some way, but I don’t know how? One thing I did want to mention, I kept thinking about the Cassandra story. How she’s this prophetess, how she has the gift of prophecy but the curse that no one will listen to her, that no one will believe her. And I was trying to think about how that played into this story and it took me a while to get there, but I think it’s just that Penny is refusing to understand and refusing to believe the pages that she is writing are actually things he needs to pay attention to. And it takes him until the very end rereading that first page to realize he had the information he needed all along. BRITTANY: Yup. DANI: Yeah. CLARA: Oh, we lost Stella. BRITTANY: Bye Stella! CLARA: Aww. BRITTANY: She’s having problems with her connections. DANI: Yeah. BRITTANY: Poor baby. CLARA: Well, while we’re waiting I can just ask you, Brittany. Were there any last words you had on this episode? BRITTANY: Gosh, my last words were how excited I am for everybody to see Julia and Fen’s journey and to see these two amazing women that have been through so much, use all that pain and all that strife to build compassion for each other and feel compassion for other people. How they use the crap in their life to actually do good things. CLARA: Good. DANI: They left so many cliffhangers in this episode. BRITTANY: I know. There’s so much. DANI: And I have a feeling next episode isn't going to be able to pick up on some of those, just cuz it’s the big ol’ musical episode. CLARA: Yeah. BRITTANY: Oh yeah! That’s right, that’s right. Yup. I just texted Stella. I said, ‘are you alive?’ CLARA: Well, okay, I guess we’ll pause for a second. [Twinkling sound effect as they pause to get STELLA back] CLARA: Any last words before we move onto fashion. Anything else about this episode, Stella? STELLA: Gosh, no. No, I think we said it all. CLARA: Okay, well fashion time then! So I personally have been obsessed with Fen’s outfits on Earth, both in this episode and the last one. Brittany, are you as excited by Fen in jeans as I am, or do you miss the Disney princess wardrobe? BRITTANY: Yeah I was excited about Fen in jeans and Fen in real outfits. It’s kinda weird. It really threw the crew off. I can’t tell you how many times the AD would look at me and be like, okay you gotta get dressed now! And I was saying, no I am dressed, this is wardrobe. Crew members were constantly like, aren’t you supposed to be in wardrobe right now? Like, this IS my wardrobe! [LAUGHTER] STELLA: You had the coolest shoes. Remember those shoes? We were like those are so cool! BRITTANY: Oh yeah! STELLA: They were like Johnson. BRITTANY: Yeah, the Fen Earth shoes are actually pretty awesome. They’re actually a little Margo-ish. But I love them. DANI: Fen stole them from Margo’s closet. BRITTANY: I mean, she totally would. Nah, she wouldn’t. I hope she would. That’d be fun. DANI: I’m curious to where Fen got her clothes. BRITTANY: I like to think that Fray brought her– STELLA: Free People! BRITTANY [LAUGHING]: Yeah, exactly. STELLA: Which is awesome. BRITTANY: It might be Free People. I’m trying to think about where the clothes are from. Cuz all the Fillory stuff is all custom made by Magali and I do miss it. I totally miss my princess dresses, but yeah, I don’t know where the Fen real clothes are from. CLARA: Some of it has an H&M vibe, but some of it I think is frillier than that too. BRITTANY: Definitely not from H&M. [LAUGHTER] CLARA: Ohhh. Sass. [LAUGHTER] BRITTANY: That was sass. CLARA: Alright so not from H&M, we’ll figure it out. So one of the things I really like is last season, Fen’s fashion very much reflected her relationship with Eliot. We talked about this the first time we had you on, that she was wearing these things that really looked like the femmine version of Eliot’s wardrobes. And one of the things I really like about her coming to Earth, it’s that she’s discovering her personal style at the same time that she’s finding herself as separate from him. BRITTANY: Yeah, I think the wardrobe actually really, really aligns– I’m glad you noticed – with her personal journey. Yeah, the wardrobe was matching Eliot for a while, which was really cool and interesting and I loved that Magali did that, our costume designer. And then as Fen started drifting away from Eliot a little bit, but she was still wearing her Fillory clothes, actually Magali started designing it with like, prints from the 20s, the Roaring Twenties, to kind of represent liberation and all of these other things and themes from that time in American history and putting it into Fen’s wardrobe while Fen still stayed Fillorian-looking and used those kind of fabrics. So even before Fen put on Earth clothes, she still was transforming a bit. And now she’s totally figuring out her own thing and even her Earth fashion is just like Fen versions of Earth fashion, which is super fun. DANI and CLARA: Yeah. CLARA: Dani, since I know you’re obsessed with Julia’s outfits, I wanted to make sure you got the chance to ask Stella some questions about her wardrobe too. DANI: Yeah, so thanks, I do notice her always. I’m literally always, I want Julia’s wardrobe. So what do you think Julia’s wardrobe says about her? STELLA: It’s so funny because I am so bored with Julia’s wardrobe as Stella, and Summer actually went out to the stores Magali buys Julia’s clothes and brought her entire wardrobe. CLARA: Oh my god. STELLA: It was so funny, we all want what we can’t have on this show. Man, I wish I had Eliot’s wardrobe. CLARA: Everyone says that. DANI: Everyone always says either Eliot or Margo. STELLA: Or Penny. Penny’s cool. BRITTANY: Yeah, Penny is cool. STELLA: I could wear my Harry Casdon vest out. I think her wardrobe’s differently changed a lot and I know Magali’s wanted to do a job of that, of sort of in the beginning it’s a lot more preppy and reserved, and I think as time goes by she transitions from like dark maroons to a lot of lighter lavender and whites. And it’s nice to see her transition from really dark colors and themes to like, finding light and moving into the light, which is really cool. Her way of navigating it. The bodysuits are… not fun. They are a killer. BRITTANY: Cuz when you have to pee, you have to take all your clothes off. STELLA: Brittany knew how many frontal wedgies I had during our shooting. It was like, not fun at all. BRITTANY: At least you look good! STELLA: When we had to do our stunts? Oh man… BRITTANY: Oh yeah. STELLA: That was rough. Really, that was rough. DANI: Yeah. Well I know sometimes there are clues to the characters’ arcs in their clothes. Has there been anything like that for Julia that we might have missed? It doesn’t have to be from this season, like maybe in the past. CLARA: You mentioned the colors. STELLA: I think, with the colors. And I guess there was might have been a period where she was more covered up than usual, in regards to her sexuality, and figuring out where it lies, and after the rape and what that did to her, how to naviagte that. You know what I mean? And what parts of her body she was comfortable showing. So I think there might be some of that, which I tried to do, but nothing too major. I think those are the subtleties. I know Magali and I discussed that. And then the darker periods with the darker colors and then the lighter periods. And there are some cool hints that Magali would use throughout the season where she would bring something that we used in the pilot and then throw it in there, like a ring. It would be the most subtle thing, but it would be like a ring or a bracelet that we wore in the first episode ever just to show, oh you still have this in your arsenal. BRITTANY: That’s cool. I like that. DANI: Awesome. Well you already answered which character’s wardrobe you’d steal from. STELLA: Totally. CLARA: Brittany, I don’t think we asked you that question when we had you on before so yeah, whose wardrobe would you steal? DANI: I thought we did. I thought she said Eliot. CLARA: Well, it’s possible. BRITTANY: Yeah, I love his wardrobe. I do love Fen. It’s so beautiful. Magali just does such gorgeous [work]. I really like Fen’s wardrobe. I do like Julia’s wardrobe for real life. I would like to parade around in my chiffon floor-length dresses all the time, but sorry, I do love Julia’s wardrobe. You just look so good in it! I can’t help it! STELLA: Boo-boo! [LAUGHTER] CLARA: Okay, I think that’s it for fashion. Now we’re just like making cat noises at each other. STELLA: Now we are! Like, meow! DANI: My cat is staring bitterly at us, like I’m not paying attention to him and he’s very upset about it. BRITTANY: I know, because he’s the center of attention, just like all of us. CLARA: And we already technically forced Brittany to make cat noises with us on our first episode with us so. BRITTANY: Oh my god, yeah, that’s right! Last year. They did! It was in person so they held me hostage. [Everyone makes meowing noises] CLARA: I don’t even know what to do at this point. Alright, shall we move on to Meow-VP? DANI: Yeah. CLARA: Alright. This was a wonderful episode, full of amazing performances, and I know Dani and I both found it kind of hard to choose. I just love the two of you together but I think in the end I had to give it to Marlee Matlin as Harriet in this one, just because she’s given so much to do in this episode and she takes it as far as she possibly could, I think. So that’s my MVP this episode. Dani? DANI: So I basically from the get-go was like, Olivia. She was amazing but then as soon as I got to that segment with Harriet, I was like, no I think I have to agree with Clara and give it to Marlee Matlin. But she’s literally amazing in everything always. BRITTANY: Yeah, I have to give it to Harriet too, especially seeing her life journey and seeing how much strife she’s been through and literally to come out on the other side and be this strong and this focused on her goals. DANI: Her character kinda reminds me of Kady in some ways. BRITTANY: Hmm. Yeah, I could see that. CLARA: It’s probably why they get along. DANI: Yeah, probably. CLARA: So Stella, what about you? Do you wanna nominate anyone as an MVP this episode? STELLA: Oh man. I haven’t seen– BRITTANY: OH YEAH she hasn’t seen it! STELLA: Everyone! Everyone’s an MVP. [LAUGHTER] CLARA: We’ve heard that before. BRITTANY: All the MVPs! CLARA: MVP for you! And for you! And you! STELLA: And for you. DANI: And I’ve definitely given it to the ensemble before though. STELLA: Yeah, the ensemble. CLARA: There’s lots of great ensemble episodes. It’s hard not too. Episode rating time? Yeah? DANI: Yeah. CLARA: So I know, the hardest question of the podcast, but Dani, scale of 1 to 10, how would you rate this episode? DANI: I’m definitely going to have to give it a 10/10 CLARA: Yeah, me too. Such a great episode just on every level. And you know, I texted you and I was like, I don’t know I really liked five but I think this might be my favorite now. [LAUGHS] It was really hard. Brittany and Stella, I won’t ask either of you to rate the episode on its merits. I think that’s way too hard when you’re in it. But I’d love to know from each of you, and we’ll start with Brittany, which episode has been your favorite to work on this season? BRITTANY: I would say, oh, probably seven and eight. Last one and then this current one. Cuz I think it’s the ones where Fen has made the most growth, and I think it’s really great for me to express these things I’ve been wanting Fen to express forever. So I’d say seven and eight. CLARA: Yeah, that’s awesome. DANI: I love that. The kinda monologue part that you have. BRITTANY: With Eliot? Yeah. DANI: In that last episode. I really loved it. BRITTANY: Thanks. That was a really interesting scene. I love doing that. CLARA: I don’t know if I said this in our last episode or if I just texted it to Dani, but everytime Fen, everytime you’re on screen as Fen and she starts to well-up, I just immediately start crying. Fucking instant reaction. [LAUGHTER] BRITTANY: Aw, yay! That’s so sweet and sad. CLARA: It’s good! That’s empathy. BRITTANY: Thank you for emoting. It makes me happy. CLARA: Oh well we just lost Stella, but we’re at the end of the episode anyway so I think I’m just gonna thank both of them. So Stella, you’re not here, but thank you so much. And Brittany, you are here, so thank you so much for joining us and suggesting that we do this. It’s been really a fun treat to talk to both of you and get to talk about a pairing from multiple sides. So yeah, you’re both really fun, I hope we get to do it again soon. DANI: Yeah, me too. BRITTANY: So much fun. DANI: We definitely need to have Stella back on so we can interview her like our traditional style. CLARA and BRITTANY: Yeah. BRITTANY: There’s so much depth to what she has to say about Julia and the show. A lot of insight. CLARA: I think you both have that. Brittany, with this episode, I don’t know who's currently the front runner, but you’re like our Alec Baldwin or Steve Martin of SNL. You’ve been on more than anyone else. BRITTANY: Yeah! CLARA: I’m always so impressed that you have new things to say and new insight. BRITTANY: Yeah, no totally! DANI: You always come on. Then Arjun always comes on. And we almost always have Lev for our finale. BRITTANY: Oh cool! CLARA: So you’ll probably be matched with him by the end of the season, but yeah. We love having you as a guest. BRITTANY: I love Arjun too. CLARA: Okay, I guess I should thank the listeners at this point. So listeners, thanks for joining us. Remember to subscribe and rate us on iTunes or Apple Podcasts or whatever the hell it’s called these days. The more positive ratings we get, the higher we show up in search results, which means that more fans can find us and hear interviews with the wonderful Stella and Brittany that we had on today. As always, you can follow us on Twitter or Facebook @physicalkidspod. Bye! BRITTANY: Bye! DANI: Bye!