-------------------------------START CLIP-------------------------------- JANE: If I change anything that could undo every sacrifice we've all made to stop The Beast. ELIOT: Why did you build a workshop full of time travel gadgets if you aren't willing to use them? JANE: The lesson that I've learned from a life of trying to change the past is, well, you will almost always make things worse. Speaking of, where is my little volunteer tomato? ELIOT: Volunteer...? JANE: Quentin, my dear. ELIOT: He died saving me. Saving everybody. JANE: Stiff upper lip, eh? How positively British of you. EILOT: Someone's got to keep it together. JANE: Is that what you think you're doing? Back when Quentin first came to Fillory in the very first timeline, he was running from grief over his best friend, who died tragically. ELIOT: Julia. JANE: You. A victim of your own vices. I was worried that I was taking advantage of him, of his sorrow. The first change I made was to save you, to see if he would still answer Fillory’s call, and he did. And then he died 39 times. I’d hope this time would be different. ELIOT: It still could be. You saved him 39 times. Why not 40? JANE: Because he won. If you took away his sacrifice, you'd lose everything that it bought you: your life and the lives of everyone around you. Same with your friends Josh and -- is it Flen? ELIOT: It is not. JANE: You have to let go of the past, Eliot. Let the dead stay dead. Time is a motherfucker, isn’t it? -------------------------------END CLIP---------------------------------- CLARA: “Time is a motherfucker,” indeed. Welcome back to Physical Kids Weekly. I'm Clara. DANI: And I'm Dani. CLARA: And today we’re talking about Episode 502, “The Wrath of the Time Bees,” written by David Reed. And just as an aside, when I sat down to watch this episode, I remember thinking to myself “oh, I should check who wrote it so I can include it when we talk about the episode here.” And within the first two minutes or so there were, like, two different Star Trek Voyager references, and I immediately knew it was David, and I was not wrong. I actually emailed him to tell him that, to be like, “David, I knew this was your episode 30 seconds in,” and he told me that Martin Rush, who was the DP for the episode, actually shot both of the Voyager episodes that little golem Quentin references. DANI: Which are? Not that I’ll know what they are. CLARA: Well, the first one is “Waking Moments,” and the second one is “Non Sequitur.” I checked with David, because I was pretty sure I knew about “Waking Moments,” but the second one I was like, “there are five different things this could be,” and he was like, “yeah, I think I was mixing a few things, but ‘Non Sequitur’ is what I meant.” DANI: That's good. CLARA: Yeah. DANI: So, why don't you start us out with the recap? CLARA: On it. This episode picks up where the last one left off, with Alice creating a golem of Quentin using his library book. But things don't quite go as planned, and she ends up creating a much younger version of Quentin than she bargained for. Julia helps her see that what she was looking for was closure, and while she'll never quite get what she wants, talking to the golem still might help her move on. Meanwhile, in Fillory, Eliot and Margo get into some timey-wimey shenanigans as they try to save Josh and Fen -- with mixed results. And in Brooklyn, things get dicey after Kady and Pete run into a pair of sleeper agents. A lot to cover for sure. So, Dani, what did you think of the episode? DANI: I really liked this episode. It was one of those ones that's like the perfect blend of comedy and drama that “The Magicians” is so great at. There's so many hilarious lines in this episode, but also like the episode’s called “The Wrath of Time Bees.” CLARA: I love that you -- for folks listening at home we didn't actually get the episode titles when we first got the episodes. They just -- normally we do but this year they just said like 501 screener or 502 screener -- so Dani texted me a couple days ago and she was like, “the name of this episode is epic.” DANI: Yeah, they finally added the names. CLARA: Well, and fortunately, we got them on Instagram a little bit before, too. So now we have them for the whole season. DANI: Yes, it's interesting that they're using that tactic of, kind of promo-ing the crap out of the season. CLARA: Interesting how? DANI: Like just the way they dropped -- all of the names of the episodes and -- like one liners from this season? CLARA: Oh, yeah. Well, and today they announced that Fen is taking over The Magicians Syfy Instagram today, when we’re recording this, to do a like Fen and Fillory series. Which of course, the first thing we see that's related to that is in this episode. DANI: Yeah. Yep. CLARA: So, I love what you said, and this was a really meaningful episode for me too. We talked last time about how -- all of the crew are processing their grief in different ways. And I think it would have been really easy to do like a one-off tour, like here's how Alice is coping, here's how Eliot's coping, here's how Margo is coping, here's how Julia is coping, here's how Kady's coping, and just like, do it once and be done with it. But what I think this episode demonstrates is we're not going to be taking the easy way out this season. It goes deeper in that exploration of grief, and I really love that. It's hard to watch sometimes, but I think it's really good. DANI: Yeah, it's really interesting. I don't know -- it's already getting to be like super emotional and were only two episodes in. CLARA: Oh my god yeah, tears constantly. DANIE: Constantly. I've cried many times, already over these last couple episodes. CLARA: So, let's get into it. And I want to start our deep dive just a little bit differently today because, I mean you were mentioning that their promo-ing a lot of the funny lines, but there were a lot of really profound lines that stuck out to me in this episode. Things that really get it those different ways that the characters are coping. And so, I thought it might be interesting to kind of start with the ones that resonated with us the most. For me, it was kind of surprisingly one of Kady's lines. Near the end, she says, “I thought that if I took on more power and more responsibility that I'd want heroin less. But the truth is when I thought I'd relapse, I wasn't disappointed. I wasn't mad at myself; I was relieved. It gave me permission to relapse some more, trying to lead the Hedges, it's only going to get harder. And I'm not sure I can do without a crutch, which maybe means I shouldn't do it at all.” And that really resonated with me personally, because while I don't have her, substance abuse issues, that approach of just like taking on more and more, doing more and more, blowing past my own boundaries, even when I know it's bad for me. That is totally, how I respond to grief and negative emotions, it’s just, like that's my way of avoiding them. DANI: Yeah, I feel like there's been many instances in my life where it's like, kind of the bad thing or the disappointing thing, happens and it's kind of like relieving, in a way. Same with like, -- if you're an introvert and someone cancels plans, -- your just like, yes! A little bit different, but it's a similar feeling. CLARA: We'll say a little more about that, like, what are what are you thinking about? DANI: I don’t know, like, say you don't really want to go into work and it gets cancelled or something, but you kind of need to go to work, but you don't want to go to work. So, it's kind of like a relieving feeling to, I don't know, for negative things happen, sometimes. CLARA: I think I know what you mean. DANI: I think it's a lot more personal with her because, you know, it's heroin. But – CLARA: Yeah, but I think there's also -- there's a middle ground in there, which is something that I have experienced a lot. Like I think anyone who deals with anxiety, like you, or like I. You know that experience of, -- the way that you build it up in your head, is so bad and so much worse a lot of times, than how it actually pans out. Like even when the worst of the worst happens, it's never as horrible as you think it's going to be in your head when you're sort of building it up with that anxiety. And it's talking to you and telling you that like, your life is going to end. DANI: Yeah. CLARA: For her, her relief was a little bit different, right? Like her relief was around. Like she says, “like feeling like it gave her permission to fuck up more.” But as somebody who like has some pretty bad perfectionistic tendencies, I also really get that, right. Like, if you feel like you have to be perfect all the time, and like there is so much responsibility on you. And like your way of dealing with bad shit is to take on more responsibility. It just like, it can be this, you just build more and more fear and anxiety in your life, to go along with that about fucking up and so when you finally do, it's like, okay well, I guess at least now, everyone sees -- it's like if you have imposter syndrome, right? Like, okay, well now everyone sees that I am an imposter. So maybe I don't have to pretend so hard anymore. DANI: Yeah, I feel like hers is rooted in something a little bit more sad, because like, last season she wanted to die. CLARA: Yeah. DANI: So I feel like it might be something like that again. CLARA: You think –- you think that she’s DANI: Like she’s still not sure if she wants to live. CLARA: Hmm well, I hope she -- she wants to live I want her to live. DANI: Me too. CLARA: I feel like in this episode too though, we're still setting up the Kady and hedgewitch storyline. Like I still don't know where it's going, but I'm much more interested in it after this episode, then I was in the last one. Like, now I actually give a shit. There's some urgency to wanting to see how it's going to resolve. I mean, this is sort of an unfair question to ask you, Dani, but --, where do you think this plotline is going to go? DANI: Honestly, I have no idea. Like, it's one of those storylines, that I just have no idea where it's going. There's nothing in the books or that is like rooted in this at all. So, there's nothing to like latch on to. CLARA: Well, that's a really interesting thing about like, Kady’s storylines in general, because she's not the only new character, and she's also not like -- there are plenty of times when a storyline that is sort of central and one character in the book, ends up being centralized around a different character in the show. We've talked about that a fair bit before, but with Kady, that doesn't happen very frequently, right, like Kady is a, pretty much new character and then sort of very loosely like in name only, based off of a minor character in the books. But she's also not really taking the place of anyone in the books. She's, she just gets made from whole cloth. And I really like that it gives them a lot to explore with her. DANI: Yeah, it definitely gives them a lot to do on their own, like something that hasn't been written before. It's interesting, Kady's journey has always been really good to watch. CLARA: Mmm. DANI: I quite like her. CLARA: Let's keep her around. DANI: Yes. CLARA: You had said that after the trailer, that you were hoping Jake Choi’s character would have a meatier role, than he ends up having at least, if this episode is any indication. Are you disappointed that he didn't? DANI: Yes, I mean, for many reasons. For one, -- I feel like they really could have done something with his character. I mean, he identifies as queer in real life, so -- I don't know, like my head immediately went to like, oh, he should be like a love interest of Eliot's, but it obviously is not going to happen. But I did like his role, like I thought he was really funny. Like, they definitely cast very well, to like, his strengths. He's a very funny guy. He usually plays like the funny stupid guy and things. So, it was interesting to see him not be so much stupid but still funny. CLARA: Yeah, and kind of awkward. DANI: He's very awkward. I was like, kind of digging that vibe between him and Kady, and then it just turned very, very dark very quick. CLARA: Yeah, it got dark really quick. DANI: He does have a tattoo of a Kraken so um -- CLARA: Oh shit. I forgot about that. You mentioned that in the trailer episode, I think? DANI: No, because they hadn't shown him – except for his eyes lighting up in the trailer. CLARA: Oh, maybe you just texted me. DANI: I think I texted it to you, yeah, cuz like, when I was watching it, probably the second or third time I was just like looking. I was like maybe his tattoos mean something. I know that the actor has a lot of tattoos in real life. So, it could just be his tattoo. But like, it just feels like it could be a little bit too much of a coincidence that he has a kraken tattoo and obviously we're gonna see a kraken this season. So, you know, fingers crossed. CLARA: Well, I don't think it necessarily means he is the kraken but more like, like if he's a sleeper agent, right? Like, that's one of the things that we get. “oh, hey, we're starting to understand the Hedge Witch plotline talking it out, talking it out?” Right. Like he doesn't -- we don't know who he's a sleeper agent for. That's a sort of big linchpin of the end of Kady’s storyline for this episode. But we do know like, that's the one hint that we get about like where the storyline is going to be going and if the kraken thing is like, I don't know if there serving the kraken or if it's like the order of the kraken or something like that, but if there is some kind of like -- DANI: Yeah. CLARA: -- thing going on around that, like that seems like a really interesting place for it to go and also not what I expected at all because like, what we see in that one glimpse we get of the kraken in the trailer has nothing to do with the Hedge Witches and it's like, isn't it Eliot and what is the name of Eliot's -- the Homunculus, that Eliot was like, hanging out with? DANI: I forgot, it’s um, god what’s his name? I can't remember what it is. I’ll remember it like probably right afterwards. CLARA: Okay, but the guy, the other guy, who was like in the happy place with Eliot last season. Yeah, so like it. That would be a really good deflection, a really good – DANI: It’s Charlton. CLARA: Charlton. Yeah, that would be really good deflection though, right? Like If, if they showed us this one scene that doesn't have any of the people who are primarily involved in the kraken plot, some good misdirection. DANI: They always love to like, at some point in the season kind of start to combine the storylines. CLARA: Yes. DANI: So, like, eventually I feel like, you know, it's going to come together and have to relate to like, the overall, like arching plot. So, this isn't really about Kady, but I have a question for you. CLARA: Okay. DANI: Because it kind of has to do with Kady, but not really. How do you feel about like, Pete being kind of important again? CLARA: I don't know. I mean, what I want to see out of Pete is some confrontation of past skeeziness, if that makes sense. Like if he's going to stick around. I need a little more of like, head on dealing with his patriarchal bullshit then we've seen so far. DANI: Well, I do love Kady constantly not putting up with this bullshit. CLARA: Yes. DANI: And being just antagonistic towards him a little bit. I don't know he's kind of growing on me just because he's more like that -- the comedic relief character right now, all I know is that Killy’s probably going to be really happy because for some reason, she’s the only person I know that loves Pete. CLARA: Everyone's got to have a fan. So, let's move on to Alice's storyline. Because you were saying last week that kind of Alice's way of dealing with her grief and that just, like, pit of depression she falls into like head in the mattress. Really resonated with you and how you cope with things like that in your life. And I kind of want to see if that holds this week, because she moves out of that into some pretty drastic actions. Do you still see yourself in the way Alice is processing Quentin’s death? DANI: I feel like every, like everyone at least has some kind of period of grief where they just do something fucking crazy. Even if it's just something simple like, you know, some people will chop off their hair or whatever, when they're depressed or going through something. CLARA: The breakup haircut. DANI: Yeah. I don't know, I'm not really like a drastic person like that, that kind of stuff rarely happens. I'm definitely more like a wallow in self pity for quite a while and then eventually I just kind of snap out of it. What about you? How do you...? CLARA: Well, I think I sort of said it earlier that like the, the thing that resonated most with me, well, I'll talk, I'll talk about both of them. But like Kady's was definitely a big thing that resonated with me and then that scene I played with Jane and Eliot, there were parts of that that resonated with me. Which is something I never thought I'd say, like I don't generally identify with Eliot in any way other than that he's queer and like, that's just not the kind of person that I generally am. But his way of dealing with grief was kind of similar to mine. And what was -- like I'm curious in this week set of like, here is how everyone is coping. Who did you identify with most? Like what was your big line? DANI: I don't know if there's, like, a specific line that jumped out to me for anyone, grief-wise in this episode. Except for maybe the like, the timeline about like, how what is it? The one that's at the end of the clip. CLARA: “Time is a motherfucker.” DANI: “Time is a motherfucker.” And it is. I feel like I would be more similar to Eliot. I've definitely been through it like that worse. It's like substance abuse or something bad and like just more like getting angry. I feel like he's more angry and he lashes out at people. Like he lashes out at Margo, who, they love each other so much, but they like really kind of got into it. And they've been getting into it a little bit this season in ways that we like hadn't really seen before. CLARA: I really like that. I've really enjoyed their scenes together. That was -- I was trying to decide what clip to pull. And that was the other one I was considering. DANI: It's a good one. It's really nice to see. Just, I mean, we're always just getting more facets of the characters, which is always great. CLARA: Yeah, but I think it is important to their friendship to be able to challenge each other, right? Like, especially when it comes to something that's so big. That's one of the things I value about our friendship is that we can call each other on our bullshit. And – DANI: Yeah. CLARA: Right, like, if one of us is you know, spiraling about something, the other one can be like, okay, but you know, that's not true or can you know challenge the person to deal with something head on it? They're not dealing with; I'm trying to avoid any specifics because you know personal. DANI: Yeah, well bringing it back to Alice’s storyline in this. CLARA: Please do. DANI: I feel like a lot of people, -- if they had the ability to do something like, bring back their ex that died. I feel like people would do that if they could or just anyone in their life. The whole ritual to like, bring him back reminded me a lot of there's an anime called “Full Metal Alchemist.” CLARA: Oh yeah. DANI: Great anime probably like the best one of all time. Where these two brothers bring back their mom, who died, and they have to do some pretty fucking dark magic to do it. It's not magic in that show. It's alchemy, but it's still like really dark and like a lot of the symbols are similar, but there's this whole thing in that show about like equivalent exchange, which they don't do here, though, and the closest thing to that would be the mere world like how they got into it with the blood, is very similar to the equivalent exchange. CLARA: Well, the sort of mythology around golems is really interesting and I like they don't really go into it much in “The Magicians” like I don't think they did the first time either. But it's comes from Jewish tradition from like Jewish mystical tradition. And the, like golems are typically these like, sexless sort of, they're not fully human creatures, which they talked about a little bit in the like Margo one, but they're like one of the sort of important features of them is that they're ephemeral, right? Like if you keep a golem around too long, it turns bad and turns on you. So, like, typically you have to destroy it, which you do by uttering this word. But like even in like versions of stories where, like the person who creates it isn't the one who destroys it. There's always that ephemeral element that like the golem does sort of disintegrate. There's only the one exception I know of is the one that I know of, because I read that book the summer and talk to, talk to the author is in Alice Hoffman's newer, newest book. Well, maybe it's not her newest anymore. She's very prolific. But now I'm blanking on the name of it, but it's a like World War II historical speculative fiction. And then that one, it's much more Pinocchio, like the golem slowly becomes more and more human. But she also takes some other interesting liberty's in that very intentionally like she makes the golem female which you never see female golems. If they have sex or gender, they're always male. DANI: Hmm, interesting. CLARA: But yeah, I do think it's kind of interesting that we haven't touched on that. And I, I wondered when I was re-watching, the episode, if that was a constraint that Alice was aware of, if it was something that would hold when you use the like, book, in essence to make the creature and I mean, of course, he ends up being a femoral, right. Like, the whole conversation between her and Julia is about how Alice, kind of like her brain created a version of him that couldn't fulfill the task. So that he wouldn't have to – DANI: She could keep him around. CLARA: Yeah, yeah, exactly. But it is sort of the first real way that we've contended with that part of the mythology in the series. DANI: Yeah, that's true. There's definitely a lot more there. I'm wondering if it's similar to like, How golems are made in the other episodes because they don't -- have never really showed it before. CLARA: Well, the only one we saw was the Margo golem. DANI: And Eliot. CLARA: Oh yeah, yes, you're right. The Margo golem though was definitely a unformed, unformed or unfinished, something like that. DANI: And it was taking her life force. CLARA: Oh, maybe, see, that's what that could be. I haven't seen that in like past mythologies, but that seems like a way that it could like turn on its creator or whatever. I buy it. DANI: Yeah. CLARA Um, so going back to the like the Alice storyline more generally, I was listening to, on the media this weekend. And it was this replay recut of an earlier episode about trying to use restorative justice on the internet and like really quick primer, but I'm not going to get into it too much. The whole idea of restorative justice is that like instead of punishing somebody for a crime. By like imprisoning them or hurting them in some way, or like taking away their rights. What you do is you try to facilitate a way for them to have a conversation with the person that they hurt. DANI: Okay. CLARA: And like really genuinely understand what they did to hurt that person and apologize. But also, to kind of make it up, to make it up, I mean, to the extent that you can in some way. So, like, it's sort of a mix of genuine confrontation of like, like genuinely contending with and confronting what you did and the pain it caused, and then also service to the community and to try to make amends. Like the part that's relevant, in part because like one of the guests that they had on, she said something like facing the people you've hurt and acknowledging how you've hurt them as one of the hardest things that we do as human beings. Which I think is genuinely true like, just look at how defensive most people are in any kind of confrontation. So many people have so much difficulty saying the words “I'm sorry,” much less like really facing what they've done. I thought about it when I was watching, Julia and Alison act in this episode, because you can just see the fear and shame on Alice's face. You can see how much she doesn't want to face Julia's judgment, even though I think she probably knows all along that Julia is the best person to help her. And I don’t know, I just thought that was really profound. And I was curious what you thought of that and what you thought of those scenes in general? DANI: I mean, I really like whenever Julia and Alice have screen time together, because they're so similar in some ways, very driven people, but they're also, obviously very different. I like that they kind of seem to have a little bit of a budding friendship this season. CLARA: Yeah. DANI: Which I feel like they probably never would have had if Quentin didn't die, unfortunately. It's just really interesting to see Julia this season too because she's very much and just like, “take shit into my own hands” and she's not wallowing or like sad over anything she just trying to be like, I guess like an anchor for other people. CLARA: Well, it's funny that you say that because in a lot of ways, I think Julia is the only one who is -- well, Julia and to some extent Margo are the only ones who are really contending with their grief, like facing it head on. Because like, she is not running away from how hard it is for her. She is not burying herself in like substances or in work or like trying to find meaning anywhere else. I guess. Henry sort of alluded to this, I don't feel like I have seen it, really, but like he said, sort of alluded to her maybe burying herself in her relationship. DANI: Mm hmm. CLARA: But from what we've seen so far, she seems to be really contending with Quentin's death and what it means to her in a more in a deeper way than most of the other characters at this point. DANNI: Yeah, that's true. Something that I feel like I have to mention, because if I don't, I never will. And I'll forget about it. How the fuck did Alice get a sliver of Quentin’s soul from the underworld? CLARA: I really want to know that. I was kind of like maybe I should just let it fly. But I'm glad you brought it up because that feels like a plot hole to me. DANI: Mm hmm. It really does. CLARA: I don't think his soul was hanging around. I don't know. I still need to go back and watch that original underworld scene but like, we did not see Quentin’s shade there did we? DANI: No, but the way that like, -- the way that they ended his storyline last season after he died. CLARA: Mm hmm. DANI: He like went through the door, it made it feel like there's just not going to be any remnant of him in the underworld at all. So, I'm very curious as to how she obtained that. CLARA: Hmm. I mean, she spends a lot of time in the library and there is clearly some porous relationship between the library and the underworld. DANI: Yes. CLARA: I don’t know. I like, I do feel like that has to get resolved, though, for me to be fully satisfied. DANI: Yeah, I feel like there's a lot of little questions being raised in general, like, obviously, that page, that she wants by golem Quentin to read for her, that he can’t. Like, it looks very familiar, doesn't it? CLARA: It looks very familiar. Did we -- we talked about that? A little bit last time didn’t we? DANI: No, because they haven’t shown page yet in the episode before. CLARA: I thought they showed it very briefly at the end. DANI: It was just like – CLARA: I’m trying to think of how much trouble I got us in last episode. DANI: I don’t think so. It showed her setting up her spell. CLARA: Yeah, well, so do you want to explain what it is that people? Or what you think it is? DANI: I mean, if it is what we, what we think it is, we think it is a page to build a new land, which is what Quentin did. In The Magician's Land, it's a very big plot point. CLARA: Mm hmm. DANI: And it would only be fitting that Alice would be the one to do it. But I mean, I, like I've said a million times, like, I want her and Eliot to do it together. I think that would be great. I don't know. I'm really excited for that to be a potential thing. CLARA: Yeah, I agree with that. And I don't remember how much of those we talked about last season. But in The Magician's Land, the plant that Quentin sees that, like Julia takes him to on the far side of the world, which we sort of a version of in episode 412. That is a, that provides a critical component of making that new land. And I think that's part of why I mean, it may be all of why, but a big definitely a big part of why that page feels like it has to be the same page from the books, because it has that plant very prominently there. And you know, they've retconned the look of it a little, but it does in the in the page look a little bit more like what I imagine it looks like in the book. DANI: Yeah, it's a lot more similar to like your tattoo. CLARA: Doesn't look exactly like it, but it is more similar. It's more leafy and less floral for sure. DANI: Yeah, I'm curious if they're just going to like change that. CLARA: Yeah, we'll see, we'll see. We'll see how big of a retcon it is. Or maybe it's done as a different plant. I mean, the relationship with that plant, that Quentin had, was very different and 412 years and the plant does a different thing. So, I could totally see them handling that in a different way. DANI: Yeah, that's true. CLARA: Um, so just to wrap up the golem storyline, any other thoughts anything else you wanted to share about just like how you felt about that generally? DANI: I mean, I loved it. Just any chance to like to see Quentin again, in some form, I feel like is pleasing and but like, also the actor, Luca. I can't remember what his last name is at the moment. But he's incredible. Like, he has even Jason's mannerisms down. CLARA: Oh, my god. So much so. DANI: He clearly did his research. He's an incredible actor. CLARA: It's incredible, partly because Jason isn't there on set, right? Like it's not like he can just go up to him and observe him, which is I think, I think that a lot of actors who are playing the same part as another actor, will do. He just has to – DANI: Yeah. CLARA: Go from what is like from what he's already seen. DANI: Yeah. And I mean, he's just such an incredible young actor obviously. He's amazing in You, the first season. CLARA: That's where I’ve seen him before. DANI: I'm glad. I always loved – I swear we have already talked about this. CLARA: Probably. I don't know. I have a cold, cold brain. DANI: Yeah. He's an amazing young actor. I love to see like how Sarah is always bringing people from her other shows into “The Magician’s” world. And John has done it too, It's awesome. Like, and I think they said there would be more of “You” actors in this season. CLARA: Well, and the reverse happens to, like I noticed that Meera Menon, who directed some of the episodes last season, directed a few episodes of “You” this season, Season Two. DANI: Shannon Coley too. CLARA: Yeah, see. Some crossovers that would be a weird fucking crossover. DANI: You can tell Sarah really likes to use the same people. I would just die if they got Penn Badgley to do anything in “The Magicians” because I think he's an incredible actor. CLARA: I think if they did they'd have to make him be someone super nice. Just as like a mis-direct right? You'd have to be looking at him sideways the entire time and be like, when when's the other shoe going to drop and he just have to be nice no matter what. DANI: I feel like if anything, he'd probably end up being some like mystical creature. Because they love to make like -- CLARA: Oh my god that would be great. DANI: Their random one-off characters is like some mystical creature so, but yeah, that would be great. I mean, I always see that character. I mean, this is off topic. As being basically like an evil Dan Humphrey from “Gossip Girl” anyways. CLARA: So that character you mean Joe? DANI: Yes, Joe. CLARA: Okay. DANI: You know we shouldn't talk about “You” too much that would be an entirely different podcast. Which we could easily do. CLARA: Yeah, yeah. Well than back to the golem storylines. DANI: Also, though like – CLARA: Sorry. DANI: Oh, also though, like this episode every single time I watch it makes me want tacos, like hardcore. CLARA: I feel like it's a good takeaway. So back to the golem storyline. I just felt like I'd bring this up because you know that I felt kind of, I've you know how upset I was when I watched the premiere the first episode for the first time. And I mean, I was trying to be all diplomatic about it, last time when we talked to Henry and had him on and you just straight up said, I didn't realize what's happening until Clara texted me that she was pissed. Not letting me get away with my diplomacy efforts. But the thing is, like I have a hard time articulating exactly what I, like why it upset me so much. And it came up again like, in the, it came up in the panel that we did in Seattle to. But James says something in this episode where she's talking to Eliot, that does a pretty good job of articulating that feeling for me because she says, “if you took away a sacrifice,” meaning Quentin's, “you'd lose everything that it brought you” but then she says “you have to let go of the past Eliot let the dead stay dead.” And for me, like I just have the strong feeling that if Quentin came back, especially if he came back, like really quickly, like I am with you, it would be great to have him back in like the last couple episodes of the series for sure, and be able to, to close some of that out and let those characters get some real closure. But if he came back really quickly, and it wasn't hard one in any way, that would just make me feel really fucked with. Like the pain that you and I and everyone else went through all the ways that the finale like, created that and changed things. It would just feel like it for nothing if he came back in the first or second episode. And so, like that. DANI: Yeah. CLARA: That was what triggered me in that at the end of that first episodes what I was afraid of, but I agree with you like the way this episode pays it off is so, so good. I really love that it doesn't try to erase what happens or write over it. And that like, is a theme that keeps coming up, like Jane has that thing that she says to in that clip that we played about how like trying to change the past just makes it worse. And you see that happening with the Eliot and Margo storyline a lot that. Like every when they try to sort of yah, change what happened or resist it or like rewrite time. It just kind of fucks it up more, but Alice, like, what she wants, Alice is closure. She really wants to say goodbye to like her Quentin, and she doesn't get that. In fact, she doesn't even like fully get to say goodbye, because he's already gone by the time that she thinks to say it. So, it's not exactly what she wants, or what we want, but it is, it gets her what she needs. It gets her facing those feelings and processing them and that for me was pretty meaningful. DANI: But like also like how can you like not cry during that, -- scene between Alison and Quentin golem – CLARA: Oh, you can’t not. DANI: And like that has the fucking music their theme music playing in the back I was like, oh god. CLARA: No, you can’t, not cry. That's the impossibility of it. But that's right, like that's what makes it good. It's -- it feels very real. It gives you it like, it caused in me, it produced in me, these feelings the same, that are complex and hard to process, and you know make me cry leak out of my face. Um, but that also just aren't easily resolved. I don’t know. I liked it a lot. DANI: Yeah. CLARA: I don't know maybe I liked it more because I was so mad at it. At like the hint of it in episode one. DANI: Yeah. I mean, and they do it again. They do it again at the end of this episode. They do it again at the end of this episode with the letter. CLARA: Yeah, and I got again. DANI: There really like fucking with you. CLARA: I got pissed again. I do think like it's a little shitty to tease that, the first time I can get behind, the second time, I was like a little more genuinely pissed. But it's also what I said when we talked to Henry, is kind of true. Like of course Alice would try, and frankly, if Alice tried and Eliot didn't, it would feel disingenuous. So, I get it. I just kind of wish it weren’t at the end of an episode. So, it's like teasing things. DANI: Yeah. CLARA: But you know, don't have to love everything, I guess. DANI: This show loves it's fucked up cliff-hangers. So, I'm not really surprised. CLARA: Yeah. That's a good way to put it. So, I want to talk about the scene that we played with Jane and Elliot some more, because for me, that was just like, a real wow moment. And I mentioned this earlier, but I ended up identifying with Eliot in that scene, which is something that I almost never do, like I, liked him as a character, but the people I've known in my life who are like Eliot, who are affected in that way, have always been people that I can't really trust. And so, I feel like there's a -- I always have an emotional distance with that character. But he tells Jane “someone's got to keep it together.” And she calls him on his bullshit, in a really nonjudgmental way, but also just really kind of forcing him to confront the truth, that he is avoiding shit. Like he's still running away. The way that he, the way that he kind of always does. It's not with drink, maybe, or other sort of substance issues, and it's not with sex, but he's still running away, still avoiding those negative feelings. What was that? DANI: He's just still not talking about it. Like he won't talk to anybody about it. CLARA: Yeah. And I mean, you said earlier that like, that did resonate with you a little bit. Can you talk a little bit more about that? DANI: I just feel like, sometimes it's really hard to put into words. When you lose someone or not even just like death wise, like a breakup or something. Sometimes it's just really hard to like talk about and or sometimes you do talk about it and then like you just feel like you're always talking about it and like no one wants to hear it anymore. There's always that feeling too. So, it's just kind of like you get in your head, that like, they're not going to understand or want to hear about it after a while, so you just don't say anything. But there's nothing wrong I feel like with not wanting to talk about it right away. I feel like you know, everyone grieves at their own pace. And I think eventually, you know, we'll probably get him to talk and it's probably going to be really emotional. CLARA: Oh, yeah. I don't think that, -- this show could or would try to get away with not facing that at some point, and not facing it. It's good. I agree with you. They're going to face it in a really devastating way. DANI: Yes. CLARA: Just keep those tissues ready. So, yeah, I mean, watching Eliot not deal with Quentin's death, is like waiting for the other shoe to drop. You know, it's coming, you know, he's going to have to face it, you know, it's going to be devastating. How do you prepare yourself for that emotionally? Can you? DANI: I don't think so I don't think you can really prepare for it. I mean, I guess. Like, just maybe talk about it with someone beforehand, like, I -- we've done so much talking about what the season might hold and what can happen. So, I feel like for us, we're at least a little bit more emotionally prepared for it. But like everyone else, I'm not entirely sure how they would do that. Unless they just talk to each other. I feel like that's the best way. CLARA: Good advice. So, we talked about their storyline a bit because we've talked about Eliot, but the last thing I just kind of want to bring up in this episode before we move to fashion is the Margo of it all. How you feeling about that summer visual? DANI: Yes, we have not talked about Fillory. She is great, always. There's a lot going on in Fillory, in general, we haven't really talked about it too much. And not even just Margo, like in the beginning – CLARA: Oh yeah, Fenn. DANI: Where Eliot sees like Fen’s ghost and you what I was thinking actually, there's this point where like, in that before Eliot starts talking to her. It's like showing right before she died and she says, “are we still going to be friends after this?” CLARA: Oh my god. Yes. DANI: And I'm wondering that's important. CLARA: I mean, I think it's important just, I think it's just character revolution right because that is Fen in a nutshell right? Like she is so desperate for approval and for people to like her. DANI: It is but they persons also like cloaked in hidden and they say no. And I'm just curious if like, it's relevant because I just feel like it might be, but it is very much just like a Fen thing. CLARA: Yeah, I think that's a like that's also she's not dealing with Quentin's death, Maybe. I mean, she doesn't, it seems in that scene like she never knew. DANI: She doesn’t know. CLARA: Yeah. So that's going to be a whole new layer of devastation. DANI: Yeah. CLARA: But it is sort of a way that she deals with grief or just like with negative shit in her life. She has such low self esteem. She's so desperate for people to like her. And I also kind of identify with that, even though I don't think I would feel that way about somebody who is like literally murdering me. But it's it can be hard sometimes. DANI: Yeah. I feel like, I feel like Josh would be really devastated when he finds out about Quentin, I'm curious to see how -- CLARA: Oh yeah. DANI: How he'll react because he was definitely close-ish, to him. CLARA: I'm trying to think of the characters were closer if you're just reading into Trevor and Jason's relationship. DANI: They're pretty close. I mean, they have quite a few moments together. I mean, Quentin's not all that close to anybody except for Eliot, and like – CLARA: And Julia and Alice. DANI: Alice and Julie so, yeah. Like he's not even really that close to Margo. So, but I feel like he had a decent friendship with Josh. I mean, he's the reason they even like, reached out to him and got him back in the gang anyways. CLARA: Yeah, that's true. And I mean, in the books, not in the first book, but like, you do, their relationship does develop, and you can definitely see that there's a sort of mutual respect between them. DANI: Yes. CLARA: Yeah. DANI: Definitely. Fen and her phone. I couldn't Fen with the phone, her phone I couldn't stop laughing because like, all I could think, is, I swear it had to have been Todd that like made her that phone that has three bars and is working in Fillory because he needs to send her like emojis and memes obviously. CLARA: I hope so that would be so amazing. Well, you remember, I mean, they've been using bunnies for it, to like, communicate between worlds but in the books there are these sort of telegrams that go through the fountains. I could totally see the like Instagram stories being a modern update of that. DANI: Yeah, I thought it was pretty funny. CLARA: I want to see her use filters. DANI: Wouldn't people seeing this Instagram story, it would be like thinking she's just batshit insane. Like what is she talking about? CLARA: Well and who’s seeing it right, which I think is Joshua's question like who the fuck is seeing these stories? But I definitely want to see her use filters, I want to see – DANI: Yeah. CLARA: Which Disney are you Fen style? DANI: Oh, that would be funny. But of course, obviously these episodes were written before that trend came about. CLARA: That trends been around her while, but I feel like over the last few weeks, it's just become all that Instagram is. DANI: Yeah. I mean people are bored with Instagram. I feel like we got to find something. CLARA: On to the next social media. Any other Fillory notes you have before we move on to fashion. DANI: I think, I covered it. CLARA: All right. Then we will move to fashion. I will admit that I wasn't paying attention to fashion as much in this episode as I wasn't the last, but there are at least a few things worth mentioning. At first hiking Fen continues her love affair with pantsuits in this episode and it is glorious. The one that we see her wearing in the throne room is this really cool material, that's like almost holographic. Like burnt sienna and gold. And the other thing that I noticed, which kind of struck me even more This episode is the shoulder pads and I think I talked about them a little bit last season the season before. But I don't think I really got into like the history of shoulder pads, because the raised shoulder pads, or raised shoulders that she has a really epic and it felt to me like that plus, the just being in a pantsuit. And her sort of whole vibe is a tribute to the like feminist power suits of the 80s. And those were all about, like women being in the workforce for the first time and sort of having to pretend that masculinity to get respect, but like another way of seeing that, is that they were performing masculinity and usurping it as a way of claiming the power that men had. And they did that by making themselves bigger like the same way you would make yourself bigger if you encountered a mountain lion, I think it's interesting because there's a similar movement now about like, women getting big and taking up space, but it's mostly focused on actual bodies like bodybuilding, and aspects of fat acceptance, and a bunch of sort of things around that in like, response to manspreading. And I don't remember I don't know if you caught this but when we talked to Ryan at the Con, they said something to me or they said something to us as they were like going up to claim their seat about how like, I love taking up space. Because like I'm never allowed to. And it's like, it was interesting to me that like as this is coming back as a, like physical embodied thing. We're seeing that fashion on Fen, who of course, is like the most feminine character, in the show and a lot of ways, most traditionally feminine as like a fashion statement. So, I thought that was really interesting. And that is all I have to say about that suit. What is your biggest fashion note from this episode Dani? DANI: I think that I mostly noticed how much I didn't like some people's outfits. CLARA: Oh? DANI: Um, I really don't like the way Julia is dressed in this episode and I always loved the way she's dressed. But I have a feeling that it was more to hide Stella's pregnancy than it was anything she's wearing like these too big for her clothes. CLARA: Ah, yeah. DANI: Her, any of her outfits. I didn’t like them at all. CLARA: Were there were there other things you noticed? Or was that like? Were there other outfits? You didn't like? DANI: Um, I really don't like Josh was a mustache. CLARA: Oh no, the Tom Selik mustache is, no Bueno. DANI: And then no one else was wearing anything of crazy note and I mean Margo is wearing the same episode, I mean the same outfit as the last episode. I mean, Eliot looks good, but Eliot always looks good, so. CLARA: Well, Eliot's outfit I think does deserve slight note because I didn't think about it when we saw it. I don't know if he saw that outfit in the last episode or not. But he's wearing all black. DANI: No, I think he changes. CLARA: Yeah, but I think he's wearing all black. DANI: Yeah. CLARA: And we talked about how like Margo wore all black in Season Two, after Alice died. She -- right like she wasn't really outwardly grieving Alice, very much, but the fashion choices she was making were reflecting some of that feeling that we weren't getting head on and I kind of felt like Eliot's all black suit in this episode is kind of serving that same purpose. Like he has yet to contend with those feelings in any kind of real away, but they're starting to show up, starting to peek through in the way he dresses and in sort of other aspects of his demeanor and carriage. DANI: Yeah, definitely. CLARA: So those are my main fashion notes other than to agree with you that like the mustache on Josh is a bad, bad idea. Do you want to move on to MVP’s? DANI: Yes, I think we are pretty much done with the episode. CLARA: Okay, so you're going to do MVP, and you're going to go first this time, since I went first last time? DANI: Honestly, you know, it's pretty rare that I'll do this and give it to a guest star but I feel like it has to go to Luca who plays the golem, Quentin because he's just so good. Like, it's hard to embody someone else's character and do it so well. CLARA: It's also really hard to like stand up to Olivia, in episode like we were talking about last episode, just how arresting she is. And she is still very arresting in this episode and that kid Luca, he does not -- he's not noticeably worse than she is in any way. And that is a feat in and of itself. DANI: Yes, very -- they did a very good job together. I mean, he's, he's just really good. And he's done it before. I mean, in “You”, he acts alongside adults, always and he's really good at it. CLARA: I think that's a good choice. I went with something different. I ended up going with Hale for this episode. I think Henry sort of mentioned last episode about how he kind of gets undersold a bit because what he's doing in this episode, and the last one is really sort of covering over emotion. He doesn't get to emote, the way that everyone else does. But as he, as that progresses, as it did in this episode, especially in their two scenes that really hit me. Like the first one is when he's talking to Fen, and you just see all the different ways that his -- he is reacting without really reacting. Like he's not saying anything to her very true, very accurate assessment of him, as you know, basically a coward. That I thought was really powerful and then again, there's sort of a similar thing going on when he and Ellie or he and Margo are fighting where he is just like not reacting to her but you can also tell that it is hitting him. Even as he is refusing to acknowledge it. So, I thought that was really good and something that probably does get underhyped in a lot of ways. Especially when you like, compare that to some of the more clearly emotional performances, so I wanted to give a Hale. DANI: Good. That was a good one. CLARA: Okay. Um, so what the fuck do we want to do about ratings this season? DANI: I mean, like, I don't know if like I would say this episodes 10/10. I feel like the seasons just going to get that from us a lot. So, it's kind of pointless, but I don't know how else we would grade it. CLARA: Well, I do think I do think that what we kind of did last time might be worth doing. So, I might just ask you like, what are the things that really, really worked for you in this episode? And what if anything, didn't work? DANI: I mean, I love so much about this episode. There's just so many lines, there are so many moments between so many different characters like this episode, I don't think there's a thing that doesn't work for me. I think it was perfect. CLARA: I'm glad you feel that way. I will bring up one thing that you mentioned earlier, which is the little plot hole around where Alice got that shard of Quentin’s soul. DANI: I mean yeah, that's annoying to throw out there and not have an answer for it, but like I'm hoping that there is an answer for it eventually. CLARA: I feel like there has to be some, but whether or not we get it, we're still waiting on that candy witch story which, you know, think could be related? Who knows? DANI: Oh, my God, don't even like -- I’m starting to that we will never get an answer for that. And I thought it was hilarious because I felt like they purposely brought it up in that episode where Ember does the like, voiceover and then they didn’t even do it. So mad. CLARA: Well, um, I really liked a lot in this episode. I think the acting choices were great. I mentioned this already, but like, I kind of loved the way that they sort of wove, the things that happened good and bad and the mistakes that you made. They, you're stuck with those mistakes, right? Like you're stuck with the shit that's happened the past has to stay in the past. I liked that as a theme, and I liked sort of it. It represents a kind of maturity that I think a lot of us have struggled with, right? Like, it's like you said, like, who wouldn't want to try to bring somebody back even if you know that it probably can't end well. That's the whole like, ring Hallow, Stone Hallow from Harry Potter. It's just too big of a temptation. So, I like that as a theme a lot. What didn't work for me Josh’s mustache, that didn't work for me. I'm inclined to agree with you though I think it was a really good episode and I guess the one thing is, even though I think I'm more excited about Kady’s storyline, and I still wish that they push it a little bit further a little bit faster. So being at the end of the second episode and still feeling like it's getting off the ground is maybe something that doesn't quite work for me. DANI: Yeah, I feel like they're probably just waiting to give her like an episode that's pretty much mostly Kady it's probably going to happen at some point. CLARA: I await with bated breath. DANI: They like to do that with Kady. She'll kind of disappear for a while and you know, all sudden she's back. CLARA: Then she'll punch somebody. DANI: Yeah, she’ll punch somebody. I guess. Yeah, I mean, the only thing that disappoints me is obviously they're under usage of Jake Choi so I'm hoping that it gets rectified. CLARA: Alright, so that takes us almost to the end. But before we wrap up completely, it's just something I wanted to talk about because you and I have talked a lot with each other about our fears going into the season. About the show itself for sure, but also about just doing this podcast because so much happened last season like we got really deep and really personal on a number of episodes. And then the finale kind of blew things apart in a lot of different ways and affected us both on ways we expected and in ways that we could not possibly have expected. So I just thought it -- the show seems to be leaning into the hard stuff. And I thought it might be worth us trying to do the same in our own little way and just talk about how even feeling going into the season. Are you okay doing that? DANI: I guess I'll try to find words for it. CLARA: Well, okay, why don't why don't you start? How have you? How have you been feeling going into Season Five? DANI: I just try not to think about it. Honestly, like I just gave myself a break. Like I literally have not watched any episodes of “The Magician's” or the finale. I still haven't watched the finale again, since we watched it like five times. I don't know I just kind of distance myself from that. I distance myself from Twitter only came back, basically right before this season starts. I just kind of, just stayed away and just try not to think about it too much. Except for obviously, when we were in Seattle, like we talked about in a decent amount because we're doing a can Con panel about grief. But yeah, I just kind of didn't think about it too much because I just wanted to just be able to jump in without too many like negative feelings. CLARA: How do you feel now? two episodes, I guess three episodes in with the trailer one. DANI: I feel fine, but I mean at the same time, like we're recording these before anyone's actually seen anything. So I don't know how I feel after that but I feel fine right now. CLARA: I feel like – DANI: What about you? CLARA: Well, I feel like you've done a better job. I mean, you have done a better job of distancing yourself than I have. I left Twitter for like a month and a half, and then I came back recently. But I left too late like I stayed, I stayed in the sort of center of things for too long. DANI: Mm hmm. CLARA: And I think I did that for a bunch of reasons. Some of them like sort of noble, around like one feeling like I wanted to help people and wanted to bring some calm and kindness when it felt like those things were sometimes in short supply. But also, I think some of it being realistic and like looking at myself, I think some of it is that it's, it's hard not to be in the middle of that. And it's hard to when you and I have been part of the fandom for so long and been in the middle of things and like created this podcast in part to bridge the gap between the fandom and the people who make the show and who worked with the show. It's just been hard for me to let go of that role, even when it was causing me a great deal of pain, which it definitely was. DANI: Yeah. CLARA: Parts of the break. But like I am, I am nervous, right we are recording these before anyone else sees the episodes, we only have our reactions to go on and I'm really grateful for that, because I don't know if I could do this. I don't know if I could do this, and jumping again, if we didn't have time to process these, just the two of us before everyone else's opinions and feelings, and I mean, all of that we're in the mix. Because it can be really hard to, it can be really hard to ignore that. It can be really hard to focus on what, for me, it can be really hard for me to focus on what I feel when there are so many other strong emotions present. And I think to do this show, openly and honestly, which we did in season four and which I loved like I'm so proud of what we did in season four. To do that, there has to be a certain amount of distance we have to be processing honestly and openly and independently in the moment. It's hard to do. It's hard to do when there's other stuff, other people having -- DANI: It is hard to do. CLARA: Yeah, other people having reactions. DANI: I mean, I'm going to just continue to do what is healthy for me and I'm probably honestly not going to read to people's reactions. CLARA: Yeah. DANI: And whatnot this season because I'm just not interested, no offense to anybody, but I'm just not because people are, have just been mean. CLARA: Mm hmm. I mean you got death threats. DANI: Regardless of their opinion, people have been, people have been mean, to people who liked the episode, people have been mean, to people who didn't like the episode. It's been very back and forth. So, I just feel like you know, if you don't want to watch the show, or if you're going to watch it, just to hate on like, just don't like I don't care. Like, you're putting yourself through that, and keeping negativity in your life and I feel like you know, like, that's their choice. So, I'm not going to read the negative comments. CLARA: Yeah, you're making a choice not to engage with it. And I think that's a healthy choice. I honestly, it's one that I struggle with. I don't know. I hate that I give a shit what people think. It's less about other people than about me, right? Like, I hate that I care so much, what people think of me. And, and it's -- DANI: It is hard. CLARA: Yeah. And I mean, it's not even that I want everyone to like me because I'm too much of an asshole to like, think that's realistic to a sharp edged. But it does matter to me to feel understood. And I know that's like its own form of immaturity, like I know that people aren't going to understand me, no matter how much I explained myself, and the more I engage with it and try to, like, make them see me, the way I see me, or the way I want to see myself, the more I feel shitty. I know that like, what I need to do is just trust in trust in my belief and recognize that like, they're going to feel about me the way they're going to feel about me and that's okay but it’s fucking hard. DANI: Oh, it definitely is hard. I mean, it is hard to stay away from comments like, especially like, people reacting to, like, even our episodes, like people negatively reacting to like the last podcast we did last season with Olivia and people just, like, tore that shit apart. And so, it was really hard not to read those comments. But I feel like having learned from that I'm going to try my best to stay away from reading what other people have to say. CLARA: Hashtag same. I mean, really, I feel the same way. I realized at various points last, like over the hiatus that I, it was like a form of self harm, right like I was going on. I think partly because I was afraid of what people were saying, but I would go on and I would look for it. And then when I found it, it made me feel just as shitty as I thought it would or worse. Like, I don't know what it was and it was just, yeah, it felt like a form of self harm like addictive in that same way. DANI: Yes. CLARA: Alright, so accountability buddies. DANI: It is pretty hard. CLARA: Yeah. Accountability buddies. Rule one of the internet. Don't read the comments. DANI: Yeah. Never Google yourself. CLARA: What was that? DANI: I said never Google yourself. That’s more for like actors and stuff but you know. CLARA: Well, my voice is giving out. So, on that lovely note, don't Google yourself, don't read the comments. Clara's voice is dying. I think we've come to the end of our show. Listeners, thank you for joining us. If you liked this episode, you can subscribe online wherever you get your podcasts and you can follow us on Twitter or Facebook at Physical Kids Pod. Bye. DANI: Bye.