Nick Clason (00:01): Well, hello there everybody. Welcome back to another episode and edition of the Hybrid Ministry Show. I, as always am your host, Nick Clason. Excited to be along with you on the journey. A few are on YouTube. Hello to everyone there on YouTube. If you just got this blared in your ear holes, hello to everyone there. And hey, if you're on YouTube, you didn't know we were a podcast. We are. If you are on, uh, listening in your ear holes, you didn't know we're on YouTube, we are. So check both of the show notes or check the only show notes for both of those links. http://www.Hybridministry.xyz is all the needs and all the stops and all the places and all the things that you need for this podcast. If you're on YouTube, hit the link show notes and I'll take you there, including transcripts, which we offer for free every single episode. Nick Clason (00:54): In this episode, we are going to be discussing and talking about areas in life in which I have learned, discovered a skill, become proficient 100% completely through online mediums. It may be a little bit controversial, but I just want to explore some other avenues and facets and areas of life beyond just a church in which I have lived into this hybrid experience in this hybrid moment. So make sure that you stick around for that and all the way for to the end, because at the end that's where I'm going to talk about three different church ideas and musings and thoughts that I have in ways that we can lean into this and engage in this just a little bit more, um, realistically and also maybe a little bit more robustly as a church start thinking hybrid a little bit more frequently. But before we do, like I said, uh, subscribe on YouTube, hit that uh, bell button so that you know when we post a video, be sure that you subscribe in your podcast catcher so that every single Thursday one of these episodes will just automatically download for you for free. Nick Clason (02:03): And finally, one thing that you can do for us that's free, but is an incredible, incredible way to give back is to just simply give us a quick rating or review. Open your purple podcast app on your iPhone and let us know, hey, love this show that will help us get the word out more and more about this idea of hybrid ministry. Not because we're trying to go big and go viral, but because we want to help share and spread the hope and message of Jesus through the means and channels in which God has given to us. So that would be an incredible way for you to just help us give back. And without any further chatting, without any further discussion, let's dive in to some different areas in which I and people I know have been discipled completely online. All right, so let's talk about this idea of learning something 100 and completely online. Nick Clason (03:02): So real quick, the definition of a disciple, just a real quick Google search elicits me this response. A follower, someone who is adherent, a disciple, a partisan mean one means one who gives full loyalty and support to another follower may apply to people who attach to a certain person mission or method. So obviously that's gonna have some religious undertones and some religious connotations. But I was listening to a podcast the other day, shout out to my one of my favorite people, Brady Sheer, Alexander Mills, those guys over at Pro Churchill's podcast. Amazing. We'll drop the link in the show notes. By the way, there are gonna be a lot of links to just things that I like in my life in this episode because I'm what I'm talking about, I'm talking about my life, I'm talking about areas and things that I'm into that I've learned from. Nick Clason (03:48): And so hit the link in the show notes. If anything I say sounds interesting to you, I'll try to include it there in the show notes. But I was talk, I was listening, I wasn't talking to them. I was listening to them talk to each other about areas in life in which they have been completely discipled in a certain area, skill, facet or discipline. And it got me to thinking just that was how the title and the whole scope of this episode started. I was like, Hmm, what are areas that I've learned something completely 100% online. So I'm gonna show you two from me. And I also asked my wife last night, and I'm gonna share two from her. So for me, one area that I have exclusively learned online is the art and the area of fantasy football. Now, hear me out. Okay, if you're not into fantasy football, fantasy football is a very intricate sport. Nick Clason (04:37): It is literally drafting real life players. Typically for me, I'm, I'm big into, um, football, not like any other sport, baseball or basketball. So real life football players. But knowing how that plays out in the fantasy realm. So you have to learn things like, like drafting strategies. You have to learn things like ADPs or average draft position. You have to know who is going to be a high scorer or one that's well sought after. You need to know people who are maybe a little more under the radar, a little more, uh, names and nuances, uh, sleepers if you will. I know like I have learned a lot from fantasy football, for example, I'll talk to my dad now, um, who was the biggest football fan I knew growing up. But now I'll talk to him and I'll mention someone like Nick Westbrook at Kenai from the Tennessee Titans. Nick Clason (05:27): And he's like, who? Right now I know that name. Strictly and exclusively through fantasy football means and channels. He is just a casual football fan now at this point. And he, I mean, he plays fantasy football cuz I make him in one league that we're in together. But he doesn't know some of the deeper, more nuanced discussions and people. And I thought about it and the reason I got into fantasy football is, number one, I got asked to be a part of a fantasy football league with some friends who were, uh, know, like real life friends in person at the church or at college or something like that. But then in the years to come, I was a really terrible at fantasy football because I was like my dad. I grew up watching football with my dad. And so I drafted like my dad does, like, oh, that guy's good. Nick Clason (06:14): But then I started listening to podcasts. That was one of my major like avenues of learning. I found podcast, ESPN Fantasy Focused Football podcast, which had Matthew Berry on it for years, all the way up until last year. However, interestingly enough, he rotated off and I think went to NBC Sports and I still choose to follow the ESPN version, but I started listening to them and I got a lot better, a lot more skilled, and I've won some leagues now as a result of it. And I want to be clear, I'm not like bragging or saying I'm some amazing fantasy football player because I'm not, because it's all luck based, but I truly, ultimately really do enjoy it. And, uh, I feel a relationship with the people in the podcast on the other end that I listened to in my ear holes. I listened to 'em on runs. Nick Clason (07:00): I remember, uh, last year after the very first weekend of football, uh, the first thing I wanted to do was listen to their analysis of the first week. I wanted them to help me make sense of what just happened. And so that was something that I was like longing for, striving for. So that's one example. Another example for me is honestly the area of youth ministry. I remember how it started. I was in my office. I decided to clean it out and it was going to be a massive major overhaul change. And I was like, you know what? If I'm gonna do this, I should probably like do it while also listening to something. And that was actually how I started listening to podcasts. I discovered and stumbled upon the Download Youth Ministry podcast with heroes of mine in youth ministry, Doug Fields, Joshua Griffin. They've written books and they are the co-founders of Download Youth Ministry and many other kind of subsidiary ministries and stuff after that. Nick Clason (07:53): But honestly, I had never even really met the guys. And up to this point, I've only met them a handful of times at this point through just different conferences and events that I've gone to. But what happened was I started listening to there at that time they called it the D YM web show, short for download. Youth ministry helped me get better, uh, at youth ministry. But at the, I think the real thing that it helped do and and they even talk about it on the shows, it helped me as a solo youth pastor in a church of under 400 people. I, I, you know, I didn't have a team. I didn't work for a team. Like I had a pastor, like a senior pastor that was my boss and that was it. I didn't have like a youth team, anything like that. And so they were sort of like my youth team place to, to listen to ideas, to chop it up, to hear things. Nick Clason (08:40): They helped me think through some different nuances. They would talk about events that they would do, and then I would figure out how I could bring those and adapt them. And I truly attribute a lot of my just skill and development as a youth pastor professionally to them, to their podcast. Now, in both of my cases, fantasy Football and the Download Youth Ministry podcast, those happened through, uh, podcasts obviously, right? And uh, that's just, that is a means. That is a avenue. Okay? Um, similarly, I asked this question last night as I was preparing for this show to my wife. I was like, what are some areas in life that you have learned or become proficient at completely online? She gave two answers. Her answers were a couple years ago. She used to be a seller on Etsy. She would make decorative wooden signs and she would sell them. Nick Clason (09:31): And she did quite well at it. Actually. She quit her nursing job in an effort to be able to do that. But I remember she learned and discovered the idea and, um, practice best practices of things like search engine optimization on Etsy, how to create good and um, proper listings that are gonna help you get indexed well in search as well as thumbnails and how to do that and all those types of things. And she learned almost all of that through a Facebook group that she discovered that had, uh, just like an Etsy seller Facebook group of people kind of go back and forth, give tips, tricks of the trade. And then another area, um, in the last probably two years or so, she's gotten really into just nutrition, the power of food and how important food is. Food is fuel to your body. Um, and not like dieting per se to just like lose weight, but really like to pursue health, um, in how to do like swaps from the standard American diet, what to avoid, what things to know and look for. Nick Clason (10:31): And for her, she said the area, um, that she really found, uh, interesting, um, in to, to learn all of that was mostly through Instagram and following Instagram accounts. And so in those, for examples, so fantasy football, youth ministry, Etsy sellers, and then like the area of nutrition to me, to my wife, almost 100% of our knowledge, 100% of our, uh, development in those areas happened through online mediums and online channels. Now, don't turn it off, don't freak out. Let's expound upon this just a little bit more and let's bring in some of the church implications and some of the theological conclusions that we, uh, should wrestle with and come to. Now, I will also say, before we dive into some of the theological stuff, I will also say that this sort of idea, especially if you remember me talking about, um, in the last little segment about me wanting to hear the analysis from week one, that is a current YouTube trend. Nick Clason (11:38): I'll drop the link to the episode where I expanded upon the YouTube trends report from 2022 in the show notes. But that is a thing that people are, uh, eager for. So uhno, another area, probably the biggest that I am nerding out on in being a super fan is I am a Oklahoma City Thunder basketball fan. And I wanna listen to what the guys on down to Dunk have to say about just about every game, everything that happens, trades off season moves, like it'll happen and that'll be one thing. But then what I most look forward to is, again, the analysis that these guys have as experts in the field as people who talk about it a lot. Similarly, I'll also do that like over the weekend on Saturday, my wife and I went and saw Antman in the WASP quantum mania, and I immediately went and downloaded the Marvel Cinematic Universe podcast, Antman in the WASP Quantum Mania recap episode because I wanna hear all they have to say, I watched the movie, I like the movie, but they're gonna think deeper about it. Nick Clason (12:41): They're gonna have theories about it. And so that is like this idea of a super fan as someone who attaches to pop culture, but with people who have more analysis to it and in all of these things, right? Like there's something there that can be done in the church space. Now, I wanna get to that in a minute, but before we do, I want to chat through and just think through like in all these things. I learned a lot through podcasts. I learned a lot through y or podcasts and or long form YouTube accounts. My wife learned a lot through like Facebook groups or following Instagram accounts. Um, and neither one of us really honestly said anything about TikTok or short form video content. However, uh, both of the things that the question, right? Was what are areas in which you feel that you've become an expert in through something completely online. Nick Clason (13:33): And I don't, I think my reason for why that would be the case is that, um, most of the areas you become an expert in, it takes time and TikTok and Instagram reels, they just haven't been here for that long of time. But one thing that is interesting to note is that I think that what is, uh, what you discover online in Instagram reel, Instagram reels or TikTok short form video, sort of like formats is you discover new people and new pieces of content, it's harder in those mediums to create super fans. So I think those are there for discoverability. And then I think your goal is to get them to follow for more, to save for later or to get them to watch something longer or listen to something longer that you already produce. So you wanna like just get discovered, find something niche, and then have them, uh, come follow you somewhere else on. Nick Clason (14:30): Um, honestly, and unfortunately, so those platforms are massive and huge right now. However, I think that they are, they help create a, a pathway and a funnel step for those people to, to dive deeper. There are TikTok ERs, Instagram real people that I love to follow, um, when I see them pop up on my for you page, but not my, that's not how I engage with them. That's not how I engage with people. I get on there and I just start going on my for you page. And whatever the algorithm feeds me is what it feeds me. I'm not on there specifically looking or searching for a person or specific, uh, niche piece of content at that moment. I was thinking about this last night, but I don't have a personal relationship with any of the people that I have mentioned or that I have learned from in these areas. Nick Clason (15:21): I would love to, but it's honestly almost never realistic for a lot of different reasons. Maybe one, like the distance of where they live in physical proximity to where I live, or just simply the size and scope of their platform that, um, they, this is how they get their messaging out to the masses and the multitudes because they are so big and they are, they do have such a large scope. And so, uh, when I do find another fan, a person who also listens to this podcast, a person who also is following some certain Instagram account, in my wife's case, we have an immediate connection around our fandom or following of this particular thing. And so I wanted to think through why does scripture discipleship disciple making the Bible? Why doesn't it feel that that same way, like if I find someone who's another down to dunk fan, we're immediately vibing on that. Nick Clason (16:23): But when I find someone who's another Christian, do I immediately vibe with them? And I've never really thought about it, right? Because one is like pop culture and one is like faith. And those are two categorically different things. I get it. However, there are some similarities to it, like in this, like we are following like the same people over here in faith, we're following the same people, right? We're following Jesus of Nazareth, the guy who was discipled, uh, discipled people and then murdered for who he claimed to be, but then rose again three days later. And so I wonder like, is is faith, is Christianity not niche enough? Like is it too mainstream? Is it too much in the public eye? Uh, or is there too much diversity of opinion? Or is is it like you find someone but you don't like, I mean, I'll, I'll give you an example. Nick Clason (17:20): I'm kind of just workshopping this in my brain, but like I will find people who say they're Christians and I'm just immediately kinda like, I, I take a step back as opposed to a step in. And maybe it's because there's some spiritual element going on. Satan doesn't want me to connect or whatever. Or maybe I, I like personally I'm leery because I just don't know where they're coming from. And so instead of like assuming things or whatever, I just kind of like nod and smile and keep going. Maybe that's just what's baked into our culture, right? You don't talk about finances, you don't talk about religion and you don't talk about politics. And maybe because religion finds itself in that category of taboo and things you don't talk about, maybe that's why I don't talk about it. Maybe it's because I'm already a pastor and I'm deeper in it than most people who are just, uh, churchgoers. Nick Clason (18:12): I don't know what the reason is, but as I'm like just thinking these things out and teasing these things out, there should be a connection. I mean, that's literally one of the things that we talk about as followers of crisis, that we have this connection that despite any of our other differences, that unifies us and brings us together because we identify with the work and person of Jesus. And so therefore that should be what drives us, and that should also be an area that can connect us one another. So, um, an example of that actually of areas that I may connect with people around faith are, or maybe other people who listen to other things or connected to other organizations that I too am connected with. I think about like theology in the Raw Podcast done by Preston Sprinkle. And I think about people who listen to that. Nick Clason (19:03): If I found out a Christian listen to that, I would immediately have a different type of connection than just a casual, I'm a Christian, um, or someone who's connected to a ministry organization that I have grown up being connected to called Sun Life. If I knew that, I'd be like, oh, you're a Sun Life person. That makes sense. In fact, that's one of the major reasons in which I took the job I took here in Texas. I found out that a lot of the leadership had been, uh, trained in the Sun Life way of doing things, which sounds like a cult, but really it's just they're trying to model after the, the work of Jesus and what he did in his life, not just his death on the cross, but his life that he modeled and, you know, inviting people to, to come and see he'd follow me, that he'd make them fishes of men and then challenging them to go on and and bear much fruit. Nick Clason (19:49): So there are opportunities for that, but I just think like for some reason there's not that connection. And I want to figure out how we can do that and what that might look like. And it, I don't know that that's necessarily only conforming to the ways of this world. However, I do think there are some things that we can learn from the, the ways of the world, the pop culture, the super fan ideas that can help us in creating some of those moments, um, in, in faith, in cul in, in faith, and in our, um, followership of Jesus. So let's, let's dive a little bit deeper. Um, and let's, let's talk a little bit more about the actual discipline of learning some of these skills, um, and how that can be translated from not just like niche pop culture things, but how can we actually do that as faith communities. Nick Clason (20:40): So one of my learnings, and this might terrify you, so don't call me a heretic and turn this off when I say this, but you can learn a skill without a relationship with the other person. Now, I think a lot of times we learn from other people, but I think that you can learn a skill devoid of relationships with other people. I just evidenced four examples for real life examples. And there are more. I mean, I talked about like theology in the raw, sun life, thunder, basketball, marvel cinematic universe. I mean, another one that's just coming to my brain right now is finances through Dave Ramsey. I've met the man one time when I went, went down and did my debt-free scream. But after and beyond that, I've learned all I've learned about him through digital means and digital mediums. I also think, and sometimes churches find themselves falling prey to this, that you can exclusively meet in person with no digital or hybridization options on Sunday mornings and on Wednesday nights. Nick Clason (21:44): And you can say we don't do any of those other things because that's not how you learn. That's not how you become a disciple. And so you meet on Sundays and you meet on Wednesdays, but you never actually experience any life transformation because you haven't really done anything other than quote unquote meeting together in person you've met in person. But that is all that there is in their relationship. There's nothing more beyond that. There's no actual relationship that happens Monday through Friday. It only happens on Sunday morning in the allocated space. And I think that that is really my biggest argument for hybrid just because you meet in person once a week and you're like, we're all about this. Where else are you leaning into these things? Because if you're not creating more moments for people to connect to those relationships, cuz mind you, I have said you can learn disciplines and things in other areas without a relationship. Nick Clason (22:49): However, the church does often start with a relationship. So I'm not saying to take that and throw that baby out with the bathwater, but what I am saying is that you can have those relationships and offer more growth, offer more opportunities for people to attach to this faith community here in the other days throughout the week. Let's talk about some of the biblical basis for relationships. I'm gonna read for you several verses here, and then at the end I'm gonna, uh, give you a couple of observations. So probably the, the most famous meeting together verse comes from the book of Hebrews chapter 10 verses 24 and 25. All of these come out of the ESV that says, and let us consider how to stir one another up to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together as as the habit of some, but encouraging one another and all the more as you see the day of the Lord drawing near Colossians chapter three 16 says, let the word of Christ dwell richly in you teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs with thankfulness in your heart to God. Nick Clason (24:03): First Corinthians 1426 says, what then, brothers, when you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. Matthew chapter 12, verse 30 says, whoever is not with me is against me. And whoever does not gather with me scatters First Thessalonians five 11 says, therefore encourage one another and build one another up. Just as you are doing, let's look also to the life of Christ, his life with his disciples. His invitation, like I said, was, uh, to invite them to just come and see, to explore. Then ultimately he gave them a challenge, Hey, come follow me, drop your nets and come follow me. And then he gives him a further command. And this is where the sacrifice and servanthood often comes in of following Jesus is not just to follow me, but he's going to change you, transform you and make them into fishers of men. Nick Clason (24:56): And then finally in John chapter 15, we see the verse about the vine and the branches and abiding. And he says, you, I want you now to be called friends and I want you to bear much fruit. So I want you to do what I just did. If you walk with Christ and first John, it says, if you walk with, uh, if you want to follow Christ, you must walk as he walked and live as he lived. So what are the ways in which he lived? He invited people to come and see, uh, earth first. He, yeah, yeah, he invited 'em to come and see, then he invited them to follow him. Then he was gonna change them, transform them, make them into fishes of men until finally then he would, uh, send them out to bear much fruit and repeat and replicate that process of multiplication. Nick Clason (25:42): So in all those verses and in the method of Jesus, all of those things are done in person and can be done in person. Yes. And also they can be done in hybrid spaces as well. And I don't just mean like zoom small groups and online church streaming. What I mean is I have a lot of relationships with people across the country in Facebook groups. I have relationships with people that on regular, ongoing basis, I have a once a week phone call with a friend of mine from college where we do accountability and talk through each other's lives. I have a once a month coaching call with people that I do do on Zoom, uh, or that I do do just through a regular old phone call. Like there are other channels and places to enhance relationships that aren't just Sunday morning at 10 30. Nick Clason (26:34): You see what I'm saying? Like that's what I'm trying to say. Like it doesn't have to only fit into that mold and that hurts our brain. And that freaks some of us out, especially some of us who adhere to a more traditional stance on gathering together in church. But what I'm saying is not that we should forsake that, but what I am saying is that you can't, someone who's truly interested in something, some sort of discipline can be challenged to learn more through some other additional methods and means. And if you're really into it, like I was about thunder basketball or my wife was about nutrition, they will eat those things up. However, what we've done is we've reduced commitment down to one single metric in the church. And that's church attendance. And here's the thing, that's not an indication of a disciple, but because we've reduced it down to church attendance, what we do is we've actually dumbed down the commitment to the point where we say, Hey, let's get the most amount of attendance here. Nick Clason (27:32): And so let's reduce the level of commitment to as low the lowest common denominator as possible. Get the most amount of people here. Oh look, now we have the most amount of butts in seats. Look at our church growth. And the reality is, is that you can offer more, but you're afraid to because the metrics may not make it seem worth it. And you though you can be offering something actually useful and actually beneficial to people to help them grow in their faith, to make spiritual decisions, to foster spiritual life transformation. We don't, we hold back because it doesn't offer the same return that Sunday morning at 10 30 offers. And that's a tough pill to swallow. Nick Clason (28:14): So let's round this thing out. Like I said at the top, here are three in live time unchallenged things that could be done, but I don't have exact frameworks for that. You could maybe begin to start thinking through in churches. The first is podcasts more than just your Sunday sermon from your lead pastor, but podcasts in certain areas, certain disciplines, certain classes, maybe like through the Old Testament, new Testament letters of Paul. I mean, think, think, go to like maybe a seminary catalog. What are things that they're offering students in seminary? And what are things that you have the bandwidth or maybe should make the bandwidth to create, to help encourage and equip your people to become more well versed in their knowledge of scripture? See, our our normal response to that is, oh, let's host a class. And, uh, there's nothing wrong with hosting a class, but what if someone's not available when you decide to host a class, but they still want to engage in it? Nick Clason (29:14): Is there a way to do both? Or instead of hosting the class, realizing that for you as a pastor, hosting a class often requires an evening time commitment from say, seven o'clock until eight 30. Or if you sit down and record a podcast, you can do that during your normal office nine to five office time. You see what I'm saying? There might be a greater return on that. And then you can offer that class for something different, better, more robust that you're hoping to do. Similarly, you could do either YouTube or, or not hosting on YouTube, but some other platform, video based type classes. You can do like a six week class on navigating grief. You can do an eight week class on lust and purity. You can do a seven week class on, um, the, the methodology of following Jesus. You can do a 10 week class on spiritual gifts. Nick Clason (30:09): See, there's all kinds of different ways out there, and I hear the rebuttals right now, and I hear them even in my own brain. Yeah, but I don't wanna put something out there that someone could take and misconstrue. And that might be true. However, if you're not doing it that way, where are you doing it? People do need to know these things. They need to know how to navigate grief and they need to know about lust and period. And they need to know about the ways of follow Jesus. And they need to know about their spiritual gifts. And you probably don't have the bandwidth in your current schedule to offer all those at the same time. Maybe you're the only pastor or you only have one pastor, and so he has to host one class and then move to the next class and then move to the next class. Nick Clason (30:44): Or he could offer them all by shooting them on a video, on a phone or whatever the case might be. And offering them, offering them through YouTube via playlist, offering them on some video course thing that's a little bit more, got a little bit more accountability built into it or whatever. The final idea is just ongoing devotionals and or reading plans that you can offer. You can, uh, curate or create you version reading bible plans. You can, um, write your own, you can get your whole church reading through a certain thing if you're in like a sermon series. And John, for example, you can, while you're in the Book of John, you can have people reading through the book of John together in their daily quiet time, giving them something to do, something to turn to in their, uh, daily quiet time discipline. So those are just three kind of ideas, like I said, un unchallenged, un uh, not not seeing a lot of people doing them, but just ideas to continue to lean into some of those hybrid moments. Nick Clason (31:46): Well, once again, everyone's so glad you're here. Thank you for sticking to the end. I hope I didn't step on toes too hard, but I do want to get us thinking more and more in this way. I know for me, I experience as a pastor a lot of in-person moments and I get frustrated when I see the church not thinking through some of these other avenues that are available to them that they're just not really doing anything with. And so I hope that this is helpful to you. I hope you see it as an encouragement. If you're listening to this podcast, you probably already think this way. And so share it with someone who might be helpful for them to think in a new way. As always, a rating, a review, a subscribe, all those things are incredibly helpful. You can follow me on my YouTube channel link in the show notes or my TikTok account, which I do post two of these for every single episode, uh, throughout the week. So go grab those along with some other, um, church communications, church social media and church marketing tips type thoughts. Those all on my social media, both on TikTok and also on YouTube in the shorts category. But hey, until next time, and as always, stay hybrid.