Eric (0:15) Hey there, and welcome to the office of the IT guy, the show where we celebrate the people and talk about the technology that's changing our world. (0:22) I am your host, Eric, the IT guy, Hedricks, and my mission here is to share a love for open source and help build a stronger community. (0:28) I'm so thankful that you tuned in because the office is now open. (0:49) Hey there, and welcome to the IT guy show. (0:51) I'm your host, Eric, the IT guy Hendrix. Eric (0:52) This is episode seven. (0:54) And today, we're going to be talking about battling burnout with an interesting twist. (0:58) We're gonna talk about how to battle burnout with a sword. (1:01) You heard that right? (1:02) Yes. Eric (1:02) We're talking about swords and not just the kind you build in Minecraft. (1:06) So I'm really excited. (1:08) Got connected with an amazing couple on on LinkedIn, and we've been talking back and forth. (1:14) And so without my usual just kind of blabbing on about these two, why don't I bring them in? (1:19) We'll do some introductions, and I think you'll love them just as much as I have. Eric (1:25) So welcome to the Ice Tea Guy show, Jen and Brian. (1:28) Welcome to you both. (1:29) Hello. (1:29) Hello. (1:31) So I I I threatened in soundcheck to throw Brian under the bus. Eric (1:35) But, Jen, introduce yourself. (1:38) Tell us what you do, what you do from. Jen (1:42) Sure. (1:42) So by day, I am a lowly mental health therapist. (1:47) And by night, I'm building this program where we help people to battle personal and professional burnout with swords and lightsabers if they like. Brian (1:59) Right. (2:00) And I'm Brian Horton. (2:01) By day, I am IT person. (2:05) Technical, ranks that I came up through led me into management, and I've been in management for a while. (2:12) And that's my day job. Brian (2:14) My evening, we work on our program. (2:18) I used to teach swords, sword fighting in the past, and it's one of my joys. Eric (2:26) And and so, Brian, I I kinda gathered that you that you're you're one of us. (2:30) You came up through the desktop support sysadmin type type ranks. (2:33) Right? Brian (2:35) Correct. Eric (2:37) Okay. (2:38) One one one of my people. Jen (2:40) Yes. (2:40) That's how that's how we met. Brian (2:42) We actually met that way, at a university. (2:45) Tell. (2:47) I was, it was an interesting job. (2:50) My first IT job was actually kind of help desk. (2:54) Yes. Brian (2:54) But we also worked on the back end exchange server, file servers, all that good stuff. (3:00) And Jennifer also happened to work there, and she had me at the first line that she said, which was, I'm working on evolving teleportation. (3:15) I knew she was my person. Eric (3:18) That's awesome. (3:19) But you're gonna say, can you fix my printer? Jen (3:23) No. (3:23) Everyone started asking me to fix their printer once they found out I was dating the IT guy. Eric (3:27) Ah, yes. (3:28) I know exactly how that feels. (3:30) My my wife throws me under that particular bus on a regular basis. (3:33) Oh, you're having trouble with x y z? (3:35) My my husband can fix it. Eric (3:36) Like, I'm I'm off the clock. (3:39) I I don't know anything about technology. Brian (3:41) Or people ask about phones and other things. (3:45) My path led me into infrastructure. (3:48) Yes. (3:49) Petabytes of storage does not mean I know about your phone. Eric (3:53) Yeah. (3:53) Yeah. (3:54) Exactly. (3:54) In fact, there are certain operating systems I refuse to support anymore just because it's been so long since I've had one of my own. (4:00) It's like, your Android phone? Eric (4:02) Best effort. (4:03) Sorry. (4:07) So as as as bit of a personality enthusiast myself, I I've gotta ask. (4:13) What so we we've got therapist mental mental help by day, and we've got IT managements. (4:21) I imagine there's there's some interesting dynamics in your all's household. Eric (4:25) What what's that like? Jen (4:27) I think it's a constant learning experience for the both of us. (4:32) And and sometimes that's really fun, and sometimes it's frustrating. (4:36) But we're in it to win it. (4:38) So at least that's how I see it. Brian (4:41) Yes. (4:41) Fascinating, frustrating, and fun. (4:43) I would definitely use those three f's. (4:46) And what is so fantastic, though, is my wife is such a wonderful, insightful person, but she comes at it from different angles than I do a lot of times. (4:58) Sometimes we're we're lockstep. Brian (5:00) Other times, it's like, wow. (5:03) You got there way before I did with my logic. (5:06) You know? (5:09) And then other times, it's like, no. (5:10) It it the logic is here. Brian (5:12) And so it's interesting. (5:15) It's interesting. (5:15) I I think we complement and enhance each other quite well. Eric (5:21) I mean, it's it's huge. (5:24) I I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing if I hadn't met my spouse. (5:27) We we've been together for over five and a half years, been married for over three, and I wouldn't be here if she hadn't encouraged me. (5:35) Because I I was IT operations for years. (5:37) Right. Eric (5:38) Went from desktop support to server administrator to specializing on this really cool thing, Linux. (5:43) And and if if I didn't have her there backing me up, I would never have started attending conferences, launching podcasts, never would have gotten out of IT operations and into nowadays, this technical marketing, but really this kind of IT advocacy type work that I do. (6:02) And I have never been more fulfilled in my career. (6:05) And I try to give her as much credit as I can, but at the same time, she doesn't let me forget that I I am where I am because of her. Brian (6:14) Oh, that's fantastic. (6:15) Supporting a a supporting partner is awesome. (6:21) Yeah. (6:21) That is so wonderful, and we try to support each other. (6:25) We are all on each other's team. Jen (6:27) Yeah. (6:28) Well, in IT in general, you know, part of what brought us into wanting to do work with the TechSphere to start because we could start it anywhere. Brian (6:36) Mhmm. Jen (6:37) You know, the things that that I know through therapy are applicable to anybody. (6:41) However, what I know because of being married to Brian is that so many people in IT are having to take on such a load mentally and emotionally, and they're not being supported. (6:53) Absolutely not. (6:55) And that's what's been a big driver for us. (6:58) And so I'm excited, you know, not only about what we can bring to the space, how but we can help open up more conversation about it. Jen (7:05) Part of what brought me to you. (7:07) Because I know, Eric, that you particularly had talked about burnout. (7:10) That's when I first, you know, found you on the internet. (7:14) The more people that can talk about this, the better. (7:16) Because we cannot leave our IT work person supported. Jen (7:19) It's it's gonna cause it to collapse, and too much depends on it right now. Eric (7:24) Yes. (7:25) Everything depends on it right now. Jen (7:26) Mhmm. Eric (7:26) You you can't walk anywhere or interface with anything without there be being a computer chip somewhere. Brian (7:34) Right. (7:35) And and I lived a lot of what Jennifer's talking about. (7:38) I've seen supporting end users. (7:44) Yes. (7:44) I've done that. Brian (7:45) There's there's its own level of frustration trying to get all the back end tech working and solving problems and all that. (7:51) And then when I was promoted into management, that was a whole new level because now you're dealing with people Mhmm. (7:58) And learning how to do all that. (8:00) And, you know, I was some things I handled well, some things I didn't handle well, and stress, burnout, and bringing work home, and all those different things. (8:14) It was so we we lived it. Brian (8:17) We we knew it, and that was a space that we knew is the IT space. (8:23) And you you mentioned earlier when we were, talking about having lots of stories. (8:28) Yes. (8:29) We have stories to to tell on the IT side. (8:31) I do about lots of, different things and that I've seen both good and bad. Eric (8:38) Yeah. (8:38) You you definitely develop some scars, because one of the biggest things you can do is is time box yourself to where this is this is work time and this is not work time. (8:48) But when you're in IT operations in particular, as as a lot of my audience is, you you don't have that benefit. (8:55) Like, I I tell a story frequently about being at a a family birthday party, And I just ordered a steak from a very, very nice steak restaurant and was so excited about it, but missed dinner because I got paged out because that was my weekend on call. (9:10) And so you can't always just turn it off. Eric (9:13) Right. (9:15) But as as we'll get into here in a few minutes, there's ways to to work around that and ways to mentally reset. (9:22) But first, I've I've gotta ask I've gotta ask the the origin story here. (9:26) Because I I can I can picture therapists working with people all day? (9:29) I can picture IT IT management and and kind of how that might look. Eric (9:37) You know, very typical. (9:39) But but the two of you kinda took a different approach to to life together. (9:45) So what what was it that you you two were kinda on this path together? (9:48) You're you're on each other's teams, as you said, and and all of sudden you decided that this is a problem. (9:54) We need to fix it. Eric (9:55) We'll we'll talk about the how here in a minute. Jen (9:57) What Eric (9:57) was what was that, like, triggering moment of this is a problem, and we're uniquely positioned to fix it? Jen (10:05) So the real moment happened, like, the whole, like, woah, with the clouds and the sunshine, when we were taking a walk around a mall during an anime festival. (10:17) And I was talking about my desire to do more on a nonclinical level, which means basically not doing treatment. (10:29) For folks that don't understand therapist and licensure, I can only treat people when they meet criteria for DSM, plus there's an impairment of functioning. (10:42) That's a person that requires treatment. (10:44) But that's not the majority of people. Jen (10:46) Most people don't need treatment level of help. (10:50) And so I wanted to be able to reach more people, plus not be stuck one to one talking all day. (10:56) I wanted to do something more fun. (10:59) I was kicking this around with Brian, and he just said something along the lines of, well, wouldn't it be cool if we could do this with swords? (11:06) And I said, well, of course, you could do it with swords because I know all about experiential work. Jen (11:12) And so then he's like, what do you mean? (11:14) And I just start explaining this to him, like, really emphatically as we're walking around in circles. Brian (11:21) So it you're right. (11:23) And it kind of expanded from there. (11:24) And on many walks, we'll talk about, you know, things at work and and a few things. (11:29) We try to limit work talk, but sometimes we would talk about people's growth. (11:34) And I love helping people and helping maybe supervisors get past some, you know, growing pains and all that, kind of in a mentoring role. Brian (11:44) And and Jennifer would explain. (11:47) It's like, oh, well, you know, this is what's going on in the mind. (11:50) This is you know? (11:51) And then we've had those previous talks, it just all really just came together there, especially with the sword thing because, wow, it was just a million ideas. (12:01) We had to really pair things back to make it workable. Jen (12:06) Yeah. Brian (12:08) But, yeah, it it can be traced back to pretty much a moment. (12:11) We don't know exactly what time and really what day. (12:14) I don't remember. (12:14) Maybe you do, Jennifer, but I can remember the moment then. Eric (12:20) So how did how did you get into swords? (12:22) Because you you mentioned being as, like, a sword instructor. (12:25) And trust me, I've looked around Kansas City to to try this out for myself at this point. Brian (12:30) Right. (12:31) Right. (12:31) So, personally, I've always had a love of swords as as a child. (12:36) The you know, King Arthur, the knights, Conan, Sinbad. (12:41) Maybe that's dating me a little bit, but you know? Brian (12:44) So I've I've loved all that. (12:46) Okay? (12:47) And but there was a time of my life where I I was going through a rough patch in life, and a friend of mine said, hey. (12:55) The local college is teaching a sword fighting class. (12:58) Let's go to it. Brian (12:59) I was like, well, I guess. Eric (13:02) Oh. (13:02) And you're you're not talking about fencing. (13:04) You're talking about actual sword play. Brian (13:07) Correct. (13:08) Medieval sword fighting, sword and shield. (13:12) You can't see, but I'm holding a shield. (13:13) See the shield and see the sword? (13:15) And which is what the class was mainly teaching. Brian (13:20) So I I took the class, and it was it was great because I I had all this heaviness in my life, and I was feeling I felt like I was losing at life, I'll be honest. (13:32) And but I could go into the class, and I'm I'm learning something new. (13:37) And it's something that I'm enjoying, and it's something that I felt like that maybe I could be good at it for to start off with, but I wasn't. (13:46) I had to learn. (13:47) I had to practice. Brian (13:48) I had to go through all the things, and it just changed my mind state. (13:54) It was while I was there, and it was it was just different. (13:58) And it so I would come out of class, and my problems would still be there, but I was different. (14:05) And that felt good. (14:08) So fast forward a little bit. Brian (14:10) I loved it so much, and I I wound up being pretty decent at it. (14:14) And the teacher asked me to help teach the class, and I'm like, hey. (14:19) I will do that. (14:20) And so we taught many semesters of sword fighting at this college. (14:27) So I loved watching this the students come in with the, maybe preconceived notions or maybe they're shy or maybe they don't have confidence or and you see their skills grow. Brian (14:41) You see their eyes light up. (14:43) We would do dueling. (14:47) And when they land that shot on the instructor, you know, the first time, because, hey. (14:51) I I don't let people hit me. (14:53) You have to earn it. Brian (14:54) You know? (14:55) That that lots people up. (14:57) And and by the end of the class, you've made new friends, friends that have a a a different interest and a different looking at life. (15:05) It really helped me through a rough patch in my life. (15:07) And I know from personal stories, helped a few other of the students through rough patches in their life by changing your mindset for a little bit, and and you're engaging physically and and mentally on a different level with different things. Brian (15:23) So I I've held on to the love of swords and sword fighting. (15:28) My kids have gone through some of that. (15:30) We've gotten actual swords and, you know, sliced up some pumpkins and some different things, watermelons. (15:37) And fast forward to kinda today, I'm excited all over again. (15:41) I can feel that same level of excitement because we're learning lightsabers. Brian (15:45) And it it's a lot the same as medieval swordplay in a way, but there's a whole bunch of things that are totally different. (15:55) So I'm having to unlearn a few things. (15:58) But so long story short, that's that's kinda how I got into I've always had a love of swords, but taking that class and how it made me feel was just it was just on a different level. (16:10) And bringing that to other people along with helping with things like burnout, that's I don't know. (16:20) That's just become a a passion. Brian (16:21) As you can see, I'm kinda getting excited just talking about it. Eric (16:25) I I can for those of you listening to the audio podcast, I can attest. (16:28) The the amount of hand gesturing has increased by the 47.6% in the last two minutes. (16:34) So yeah. Brian (16:38) So that's the nutshell version. Eric (16:42) So some people get into yoga, some people do martial arts, some people do mindfulness meditation type things, you just pull out a sword. Jen (16:51) I mean, it Eric (16:51) makes perfect sense to me. Jen (16:53) Yeah. (16:54) But, you know, not everybody can jive with yoga. (16:58) Yoga requires a level of vulnerability. (17:00) I mean, we have good studies behind what yoga can do. (17:03) But I have clients over on my therapy side that absolutely, at this point in their life, cannot do Brian (17:08) yoga. (17:09) Yeah. Eric (17:12) And my cardio and my flexibility lack. Brian (17:14) Mhmm. (17:16) You know, I I did try yoga, Eric, and give it another shot because it it can be it can be good. (17:23) It was difficult, but, slowly, it won me over. Eric (17:30) So we've we've we've we've had this moment at an anime conference at, at a mall, and we're we're doing labs. (17:38) And and so you you combine these different ideas. (17:41) And all the so all all the leadership training that you've taken, all the books that you've read didn't quite cut it. (17:49) So what what was was kind of what what what did what did the first season of of this idea look like? Brian (17:55) So I'll will I wanna speak to one thing. (18:00) Yes. (18:01) Getting training, especially in management and a lot of leadership training. (18:06) Do they try to make it exciting? (18:09) Yes. Brian (18:10) But it's boring. (18:14) A lot of the books there are books that are better than others, but a lot of the books and training material was boring and or dull as in the first part of their of of our company. (18:27) And, you know, the the swords, we felt like would bring a spice to things. (18:34) Obviously, we have a passion for what we do, and that's where kind of the daring comes in from the the with Dulme daring. (18:42) And that's yes. Brian (18:46) We wanted to get past boring things and and add a little excitement, add some fun to the training. Jen (18:53) Okay. (18:53) Well, I'm gonna step in here as the ADHD partner and say that, yes, this started in part as the boring piece, but also just a part of engagement. (19:08) I had been placed into management, not on a tech side, but I think in a similar vein of not being able to have training resources and support, that really resonated with me. (19:23) And blessed, I tried. (19:24) I tried to read so many books. Jen (19:26) I tried to do all the things, and it wasn't helping me. (19:29) And I will admittedly tell you I went down in a ball of fire. (19:35) To the point where I didn't even wanna take supervisees anymore, even for just licensure to that level, which is bad. (19:42) Because, you know, in my profession, we're supposed to wanna train up the next generation. (19:45) And I'm like, no. Jen (19:46) I don't feel like I can do that. (19:49) So I think as we started thinking through this and getting all these ideas, it just became, you know, how can we make something that's just different and really gonna speak to, you know, my therapy brain says, how do we use behavioral activation and fun and things that we have researched behind, like games, sports, whether that's eSports or whether that's a physical sport? (20:16) These things do work. (20:17) How can we use that? (20:19) Because we know they work, but nobody's using it. Jen (20:21) Mhmm. Brian (20:24) Right. Eric (20:24) Go ahead, Brian. Brian (20:26) I was gonna add there that's, you know, swords, that's that's a that's a big element to what we do. (20:32) But, yes, we are nerds and tech nerds at heart. (20:37) So we do draw things from you know, we we like computer games, board games, all kinds of games, you know, d and d, fun fun things that we like to do. (20:48) And, you know, our people, we we pull from those elements to to to maybe enhance a point or to connect with people at a deeper level. (21:00) You know? Brian (21:01) It's it's kinda like, you know, you find that common ground Eric (21:06) in Brian (21:06) in some interests, and you can you can start there and do a lot of things. Eric (21:13) So I I was gonna let you I was gonna have you introduce your your your business venture, but I I wanna dive into that. (21:20) Like like I said, I I promised you tangents within tangents Brian (21:23) within tangents. Jen (21:23) Let's do all the tangents. Eric (21:26) So when so Jen actually reached out to me out of the blue on LinkedIn, said she saw my website and saw that I'd talked a little bit about burnout. (21:34) And so, of course, that that triggers this this countermove of, okay. (21:40) Who is this person and what what is she talking about? Brian (21:43) So I Eric (21:44) you know, some healthy LinkedIn stalking and reading, like Jen (21:47) Of course. Eric (21:48) Reading posts and that kind of thing. (21:50) And something that really sucked me in is it's like that that moment when you know you're going to end up doing something no matter how much you try and change your mind. (21:57) Because I don't usually take cold calls, quote, unquote. (22:00) And but, like, you talked about d and d, and there's there's a blog post about using Minecraft to study work habits. (22:07) So I I I wanna kinda unpack that because Jen (22:11) Let's do it. Eric (22:11) Like, I I told you guys that I'd I'd been missing d and d, that it it'd been a while. (22:16) So I over the last few weeks since we since we last chatted, I've got a group of, like, five, and I I drew the short straw. (22:24) So I'm gonna be DM ing this, but we're we're gonna go through tyranny of dragons at our at our house over the next, hopefully, couple of years. (22:31) I hope this turns out to be a big epic campaign. (22:33) So but but you talked about using Minecraft as sort of a work study. Eric (22:38) Why why don't we unpack that a little bit? Jen (22:40) Sure. (22:42) What's really awesome about games is that, a, we can be, I think, more authentic when we're able to be someone that's not ourself. (22:53) And we also have permission to play around with parts of ourself that we maybe don't have permission to play around without in the real world. (23:03) Because there may be consequences to that that we're can't deal with. (23:07) So let's see what happens in the game. Jen (23:09) The other thing is game really operates as great metaphor for us to unpack things, And we don't even know we're unpacking it. (23:17) So when I talk about using gaming as like a learning lab or for some other form of self discovery, we're not talking about showing up and going, let me focus on what I'm gonna learn out of this game today. (23:27) Because that'll ruin it. (23:28) Right? (23:29) Not nothing faster to ruin it than make it, like, work. Jen (23:33) But when you can take time to reflect about your gaming when you're not gaming, you'd be surprised what you will learn. Brian (23:42) To extend a little bit what Jennifer was talking about, especially, back in the nineties, there was this little game released called Starcraft. (23:49) Maybe some people remember it. Jen (23:50) What I Eric (23:50) was wondering. (23:51) I you Jen (23:51) we played so Eric (23:52) much. (23:52) Was about to challenge the entire audience. (23:54) Anybody that wants to play Starcraft two, let let's bring it on. (23:57) Protoss will my my protoss game is still strong. Brian (24:01) Oh, awesome. (24:02) Weeks ago. Jen (24:03) He was zerg. (24:04) He's the zerg king. Brian (24:06) So I played Starcraft one a pretty good bit and even was ranked in the ladder for a little while and all that. (24:11) But I loved to have, different accounts that I could go on to be different different play styles Personas. (24:19) Different personas and stuff. (24:21) And, you know, Jennifer, you were mentioning about you're able you know, permission to be someone else. (24:27) You know, I was giving myself permission to be someone that that tried some different things or, you know, played as this other person for a little while or whatever. Brian (24:35) So it was a lot of fun. (24:38) I'm not as good as Starcraft two, so you probably will take me. (24:42) I will I will hand you that. (24:44) But d and d is another great example. (24:47) You know? Brian (24:48) You could be a barbarian that is you know, gets triggered at the simplest of words and beats head in, or you could be the sly caster, or you could be the slinking thief. (24:59) You can't be those in real life. (25:02) So it gives Eric (25:02) you permission. (25:03) Legally anyway. Jen (25:04) Not not legally. (25:05) What's fascinating, though, I love to and I do this in therapy with folks as well if I find out that they play, to talk to them about the kind of characters they're attracted to playing because a lot of times, we get called to doing very similar things And then asking ourselves why. (25:23) And then can you even take on the challenge of playing something that's the total opposite of what you're used to playing? (25:31) We've done that with each other lately. (25:33) What we've been playing Grim Dawn. Jen (25:34) And like, he tends to like to do, like, DPS spellcaster stuff, and I tend to wanna be a melee, beat your face and type of person. (25:41) And so we're like, okay. (25:45) We're gonna challenge ourselves, and we have to play as the opposite. (25:51) I became Conversations. (25:53) Yeah. Jen (25:53) We've heard out of this have been fascinating. Brian (25:55) Yeah. (25:55) I became the ground pounder as we called it, and she was doing the DPS, and it was, yeah, it was it was interesting. (26:03) And Grim Dawn is a game sort of like Diablo Okay. (26:07) For people who may not know what that is. (26:08) But give it a chance. Eric (26:09) Honestly, I wanna go look it up. Brian (26:10) It's really a great game. (26:12) Enjoyed a lot. (26:13) It's more like Diablo two. Eric (26:14) So Yes, sir. (26:17) This is completely off script, but this is what I promised. (26:21) You make an interesting point as I think through sort of the ideal character that I've wanted to play in a long running d and d campaign. (26:30) And it seems like every time it's a mini campaign, that's the one that goes on for a year. (26:34) But the long running campaigns always are the ones that peter out after a couple months. Eric (26:38) So I've always wanted this very deeply intelligent wizard, someone who's very utility, little bit of focus on combat because, I mean, you walk into a room, cast fireball, drop the mic, and walk back out. (26:52) You know? (26:54) But as you were talking, I kind of made a connection there with my transition out of IT ops and into technical marketing. (27:05) I always envisioned myself as as the guy who had six six monitors and and I could I could read machine code like some people read English. (27:15) And, you know, I had I had this idea of what my what my career would like, be that I was going to be this deep technical person, that my my two choices were I give up and go into management. Eric (27:25) No offense, Brian. (27:27) Or I'm I get in deeper, eventually be that that that systems architect, that enterprise architect that builds everything out and can tell you what what kernel modules do at the deepest of levels. (27:39) And turns out that was that was a completely wrong impression of my capabilities and my personality. (27:46) That's why I struggled with with things like anxiety, depression, burnout for so many years was I was trying to force myself into what into this role that I thought I was I was wired to be. (27:58) Whereas instead, I'm very, very happy being very thin, very wide. Eric (28:02) I I talk about an entire Linux operating system for a living. (28:07) But you get in too deep, and I'm just like, yeah. (28:09) I don't I don't know. (28:10) I have engineers for that. (28:11) But I'm very, very happy going out, getting people excited. Eric (28:14) That's that's my personality type. (28:16) I'm an activator if you follow, like, CliftonStrengths. (28:19) I I learned something new. (28:20) Learning is one of my biggest skills. (28:22) I I learned something, and I go out, and I get other people excited about this thing that I learned, which is why I had to do content creation because I I learned something and then write about it or record videos about it. Eric (28:33) Mhmm. (28:33) And now I get to do that for a job. (28:35) It blows my kids' minds that their dad gets to play on YouTube and get paid for it. Brian (28:39) So Eric (28:39) but it it was it was interesting that maybe I need to apply the, may maybe my next campaign, I need to take a more charismatic character and see where that goes just because I have I I had an incorrect assumption about my my career might be might make for some really fun engagements in in, like, a d and d setting Mhmm. (29:03) If I picked a character that that matched. Brian (29:07) Yeah. Jen (29:08) Yes. (29:08) Then imagine Well, seriously, not only that, but the the experience that you have being out of that comfort zone and then being able to reflect on the emotions that you have, being able to reflect on the thoughts that you have. (29:22) I mean, this could lead to leaks of really deep work. Eric (29:25) Mhmm. Jen (29:26) All while you're having fun, which is why I love to use games. (29:30) Because unless you're like a ragey gamer, there's not that much on the line. Brian (29:36) Right. (29:38) And there there is an aspect to gaming, though. (29:40) If if you're going into games and you're just vegging out, that, you know, that that may not Jen (29:46) That's be different. Brian (29:46) Yeah. (29:47) That's that's different. (29:48) But if you're engaging in the game and you're having fun and you're you know, it it's it's helping you work through things or it's helping you to have that little bit of let's let's change how I'm feeling at this moment type feelings. (30:05) You know, that that's the good side. (30:06) There are obviously people that can get addicted to gaming and some different things like that. Brian (30:13) But yeah. (30:16) We're we're talking about the fun gaming. Eric (30:18) Right. (30:19) Yeah. (30:19) I'd I'd still cringe when I think about the number of hours I have in, like, EVE Online back in the day. (30:25) Of course, Steam tracks all that. (30:27) It just makes me cry a little bit. Eric (30:31) So so we we we took this concept of gaming and and swordplay, and we've we've mashed it up with we we've mashed it up with professional development with maybe maybe a touch of therapy in there. (30:45) So so introduce introduce your your your all's business because even even the name itself made me made me smile when when when we met. Jen (30:56) So we called it dull made daring because what we wanna do is take things that tend to be dull for a lot of people and flip it on its head, just like we talked about changing every D and D character, and then see what happens when we do that. Brian (31:11) Yeah. (31:12) And and by the way, that has become a litmus test for us when we have ideas. (31:16) You know? (31:17) Is that dull or daring? (31:19) Is you know, where's the daring aspect? Brian (31:20) How can we bring that in? (31:22) But go ahead, Jennifer. Jen (31:23) What? (31:24) No. (31:24) Think just being and being true to myself. (31:27) Mhmm. (31:28) As a person with ADHD, you know, I'm not gonna stick with it if it's not interesting. Jen (31:33) Mhmm. (31:33) If if we can't change it up, if there's not something to be learned from it, which is why when he brought up the swords, and I was like, dude, that's fantastic. (31:41) Because, like, you're not becoming a sword master in one week. (31:46) And you can, like, shift from sword to sword to sword. (31:48) So I guess to get down to what the program is that we're working on right now Mhmm. Jen (31:55) Mhmm. (31:55) Basically, what we're wanting to do is help people who are challenged by the people side of IT. (32:05) A lot of times when we're working frontline tech ranks, we don't have to interface with people as much. (32:11) Some people do. (32:12) I mean, if you're on help desk, you're doing it all the time. Eric (32:14) Right. Jen (32:15) But if you have the luxury of even, like, maybe working from home and not having to talk to folks except maybe an occasional Teams meeting, you know, maybe it's not so difficult for you. (32:25) But the longer you're in IT, you're either gonna move up and get promoted, or you're gonna wind up a team lead. (32:33) Something's gonna happen, and you're gonna wind up having to interface with people more. (32:37) And tech people, I say this with love, y'all can have trouble talking to each other. (32:48) Mhmm. Jen (32:48) Okay? (32:49) And I don't say that as an insult. (32:51) I say that as there's some different mindsets that you deal with all the time that are working against you. (32:57) Mhmm. (32:57) So I'm not talking about what you were born with. Jen (33:00) I'm talking about you having to live under security mindset all the time Mhmm. (33:06) Having to live under troubleshooting mindset all the time. (33:09) Yep. (33:10) These things interfere with your ability to communicate with one another. Eric (33:14) Well, think what you're I think what you're getting at, and and Brian backed me up on this, when you're in that IT mindset all day, it really impacts your personal relationships. (33:23) Like, one of the biggest things that has helped my wife and I out is she'll she'll start talking about an issue at work, and it's like, wait. (33:29) Wait. (33:30) Hold on. (33:30) Time out. Eric (33:30) Eric Eric needs Eric's calling to time out. (33:33) Do you want me to listen to hear, or do you want me to listen because you're asking for my advice? (33:39) Because either way, it's a lot of pressure off of me to not have to try and fix something and go, okay. (33:46) Good. (33:46) I can just I can listen. Eric (33:48) I can be there. (33:49) I need to engage my empathy instead of instead of sitting there thinking, oh my gosh. (33:53) I can fix this in five minutes. (33:55) Please let me fix this. Brian (33:57) That fix it mindset is the troubleshooting mindset is is definitely something we've had similar moments probably multiple times throughout our our time together because sometimes I forget, and you I'm just in that troubleshooting mode. (34:14) And but, yes, that absolutely. (34:17) That is a great example of how that mindset can creep into a personal relationship or, you know, with kids or with other friends. (34:30) Yeah. (34:30) Sometimes you just need to be an ear. Brian (34:33) You need to say that sounds terrible. Eric (34:38) Sorry to derail you, Jen. (34:40) But what you're saying is You're fine. (34:41) Perfectly with what I deal with here at home, or I guess I should say what my family deals with with me. Jen (34:49) Well, it's so common. (34:50) When we were talking with other IT folks as a part of just, you know, researching if this dog could even hunt, we kept hearing the same stories over and over and over again of frustration, stress, feeling just constantly questioning themselves. Brian (35:14) Right. Jen (35:14) Am I saying the right thing? (35:16) Do I need to say that? (35:17) How do I I know I need to say that, but I don't know how to say it. (35:20) I don't wanna cause problems. (35:22) I wanna get in trouble. Jen (35:23) How do I talk to these vendors that are driving me nuts without getting in all kinds of trouble? (35:30) So so many people things. (35:34) And what I found was that when Brian would come home, and this validated out in other conversations, the stress was 99% of the time about the people. (35:45) It wasn't about the tech. (35:47) I mean, yeah, every so often, we hear, like, oh, this darn stupid server that never works is not working again. Jen (35:53) Right. (35:54) But, usually, that was because the person who does the budget wasn't gonna pay for one. (36:02) Mhmm. (36:02) Right. Brian (36:03) And when you when and if you ever draw that short straw and go into management, You know, then a lot huge part of your job becomes working with those people. (36:17) And, you know, that's where a lot of of my personal story comes in about having to deal with, you know, hey. (36:26) You're with your peers. (36:28) We're all tech. (36:28) We're all the same team. Brian (36:29) We're we've railed against the machine together, and now you are the machine. (36:33) You know? (36:34) So how do you do things like performance reviews and and delegation? (36:39) And and how do you learn to do those things as a manager? (36:42) Because working with a script is is logical. Brian (36:46) Mhmm. (36:47) Working with people can be an emotional roller coaster at times. (36:53) You know? (36:53) Everybody somebody's having a bad day or they don't agree with what you're saying. (36:59) How do you sell unpopular ideas, you know, at work? Brian (37:05) So those kind of things would cause me some stress and borderline burnout at times. (37:11) And Mhmm. (37:12) You know, sometimes I would handle that well and other times not. (37:16) And I learned better and better ways. (37:18) And, you know, now we feel like we feel like we're in a pretty good place. Brian (37:24) There are still times that that the stress gets to me and, you know, you gotta do some some things. (37:31) You know, things like being on a podcast at times can be could be a little stressful. (37:39) So, you know, you you you practice some of the the reset your reset, how you're thinking about things, and you keep going. Jen (37:50) So, yeah, that's mainly what we wanted to tap into was how can we make something that was specific to the issues of people working in tech with other tech people? Brian (38:03) Right. (38:03) Mhmm. Jen (38:04) Okay? (38:04) Because that's unique, and a lot of stuff out there isn't really geared toward it. (38:09) And then how do we do it in a way that resonates with the folks that a book or the HR training just isn't gonna cut it? (38:17) Mhmm. Brian (38:18) Right. (38:19) And and there are things like, you know, say, time management. (38:23) You could go out there and you can look at a lot of list, and and it'll tell you how to do time management. (38:27) And Mhmm. (38:28) And maybe there's pointers out there for all the things that I mentioned earlier, performance reviews and all that good stuff. Brian (38:33) But how how you were feeling before that performance performance review review, or or why why did somebody self rate themselves at the top or at the bottom or, you know, the different things or or why do you you know, why are you feeling either good about a person or bad about a person when their work is different than that? (38:55) You know, dealing with those things, I don't really see a lot of things out there that that helps you. (39:02) You know, there's not a checklist that you can go through to help with that. (39:06) That's that's a you gotta come to some terms within yourself, and you've got to know yourself and then work on understanding the people. (39:17) And for me, the huge help is sometimes understanding the motivation or the why. Brian (39:23) Why do I feel this way or why is that person doing a certain thing in a certain way? (39:30) And, yeah, that's that's that's been really one of the huge eye opening things to me. (39:37) And you talked about where does that that therapist viewpoint come in. (39:44) That's where the therapist viewpoint comes in a lot because explaining explaining our tendencies is a is a human and how we think. (39:53) Right? Brian (39:53) That's that's squarely in Jennifer's ballpark there. Jen (39:57) So Right. (39:58) But what's cool about how we wanna do this is that you're not coming to therapy where I'm gonna explain to you stuff. (40:08) Right? (40:09) Because you can use a sword. (40:13) You can use a lightsaber. Jen (40:15) You could use anything honestly. (40:17) Right? (40:17) We we're gonna be honest about that. (40:19) It could be anything. (40:20) It could be D and D. Jen (40:21) It could be Minecraft. (40:22) It could be whatever resonates with you. (40:24) We love to do swords and sabers, so we're gonna stay honest to that. (40:29) But what we wanna do is help people be able to access swords and sabers in a way that's engaging to them and then use it to be able to do better with people stuff because the insight they're gonna gain Eric (40:43) Mhmm. Jen (40:43) By running a program with swords or sabers. Eric (40:46) I love that. (40:48) So what what's what's available? (40:50) What, are you are you selling book series, mailing list? (40:53) What's, Jen (40:54) okay. Eric (40:54) How can how can folks I mean, like, I I wish I could send this back to back to myself in in the IT operations days because dealing with people was one of the reasons why I went into technology because I didn't think I wanted to deal with people. (41:07) That sidebar turned out to be the exact opposite. (41:10) I love dealing with people most days, but took a lot of time and effort and dealing with impostor syndrome, like, every other day going from, oh, I got this to the next day going, I am working on some of the most public stages there are. (41:26) What am I doing here? (41:27) I'm I should be locked up in in the in the, you know, in the server room somewhere. Eric (41:33) But I I I can I mean, I could just see from the videos that that you have out, like like, out on LinkedIn and on your website? (41:42) It's like, this is this is something I wish I had years ago. (41:45) Might have saved me a few of the scars, granted that I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing. (41:50) But Brian (41:51) And and that's exactly what I've said, and and that's exactly what we're trying to build is something that I would have liked to have had access to at some point, before, you know, I did all my trial and error. Jen (42:06) So, basically, what we've got so we have the free video, and we have it for your listeners, Eric, that they can go to. (42:16) It'll be at ww.dullmadaring.com/eric. (42:23) It'll walk them through how to use a saber or sword, and they have one, we promise, that they can use to get their brain to kind of be quiet, calm down. (42:35) If you're feeling a little stressed out and overthinking today, that's what this video is for. (42:41) Walk it through real quick with you. Jen (42:44) See if it resonates with you. (42:47) If it does, we're waitlisting our program right now. (42:51) We've got a six week live workshop and mentoring program that's gonna begin in early twenty twenty five, but we're gonna open up registration in winter of twenty twenty four. (43:03) Okay. (43:04) And that's gonna address basically all the stuff that we talked about today, these people issues. Jen (43:09) Mhmm. (43:10) And we're gonna help people craft a way to use swords and sabers in a way that fits them while also providing collaborative support from a small set of peers and collaborative support from us. Eric (43:25) Right. (43:30) And, Brian, you you feature in this video showing off your your sword skills. Brian (43:36) I there's there's a few videos out there of of doing a few things. (43:42) And it's if Jennifer says, let's make a video with a sword, she doesn't have to twist my arm or anything. Eric (43:50) Sure. (43:50) You're very reluctant to get involved with that. Brian (43:53) I will tell you, though, that making the video was is the the the stress slayer video was I've I've we did things like that similar to that beforehand, but I use that all the time now. (44:10) I go through I go through that several times. (44:13) Not not all the time, not a day, several times a week. (44:20) So it's it's fun, and it does work. (44:24) I don't know the science behind the the mind thing, but, boy, Jen (44:28) that's great you don't have to. (44:30) If people want science, I'm more than happy to, you know, they can find me and I will send them science y things. (44:36) Now have we done direct studies on lightsaber? (44:39) Probably not. (44:41) There's a ton of studies out there behind fun, behind physical activity. Jen (44:47) I know we talked about that. (44:48) And one of the things that I really love about this program is for a while, Brian and I were stuck talking about it because we were hemmed in thinking, oh, we're gonna have to pick whether it's a saber or a sword. (45:01) We're gonna have to pick what type of sword play we're teaching. (45:06) Is it gonna be choreography? (45:07) Is it gonna be battle? Jen (45:09) And then when we just kinda opened up, why don't we just let people choose what they wanna do, and we empower them to be able to pursue that path in the program Mhmm. Eric (45:23) So they can Jen (45:23) choose what they want. Brian (45:25) Right. Eric (45:25) I love it. (45:28) So we've we've got a few minutes, and I I like to I like to provide a sort of practical aspect to to podcast. (45:39) I I know I can kind of veg out and just binge podcasts just to put something in my brain, but I I usually like to take something and and package it practically. (45:49) So one of the things that that started this conversation between you all and and myself was was this topic of burnout. (45:56) So how about for for a sort of a practical something they can take home and and and kind of what their excitement for for, like, your program is what how how would one of my listeners know if they're if they're getting close to being burned out? Eric (46:13) What are what are some of the warning signs? Jen (46:16) So since there's no official DSM diagnosis here, what I like to tell people to do is number one, check their energy flow. (46:27) Just kind of monitor, hey, is my energy drastically going up when I'm at work? (46:33) Now I might not want to go to work, but when I get there, oh, it's go time. (46:38) I gotta go. (46:39) I could go, go, go, right? Jen (46:41) And slam back a few monsters, and we get this taken care of. (46:44) And then the second I get home, boom. (46:48) I'm dropping off like a rock. (46:50) Maybe when I was commuting home I thought, you know, maybe I could go to the gym today or something and that totally falls off. (46:57) It can be a sign. Jen (46:59) Another thing is going to be your irritability. (47:03) If you're finding yourself more irritable than usual and if you don't have good insight to that, ask the people around you. Brian (47:09) Right. (47:10) And that that was a big warning sign for me is your irritability. Eric (47:14) Yeah. Brian (47:16) And ask the people around you. (47:17) They sometimes know better than you do. Eric (47:20) Usually. (47:20) Probably. Jen (47:22) I think another thing you wanna look at, I tell folks there's a difference between being diligent about your job and being obsessed with your job. (47:32) It's okay and appropriate for you to want to be diligent. (47:36) There are a lot of things that you all deal with in tech that require you to be diligent. (47:45) It does not require you to be obsessed. (47:48) If you cannot let it go no matter what you do, you know, you're trying to play the game and you can't stop thinking about work to the point that it's interfering with your game, to the point that it's all you can talk about with your spouse or your friends, there's probably a problem there. Jen (48:05) One of the final things I like for people to look at is are they isolating? (48:12) Are your social connections dropping off? (48:15) Do you not really want to leave the house? (48:17) Unless it's to go to work, which you're not really thrilled about, but again, once you get there, it's go time. (48:21) Let's go, go, go. Jen (48:22) You suddenly have all the energy in the world. (48:26) So because some of these things can kind of trail closely to depressive symptoms, if you suspect this in yourself, I would also run it by a doctor just to be safe. Brian (48:44) Right. (48:44) One one thing that for me, especially I told you, irritability is one of the big things for me. (48:50) A lot of that was because the fulfillment wasn't there anymore. (48:54) Like, you know, I'm I'm doing my job, and I'm may even be doing a great job, but it doesn't feel satisfying or fulfilled. (49:02) And that would just enhance my irritability. Eric (49:05) Oh, for sure. (49:06) Yeah. (49:06) I can I can totally relate to that? (49:08) And and one of my go tos was to continue to press harder. (49:12) It's like Jen (49:13) Yes. Eric (49:14) If I can punch through this barrier, if I can accomplish this project, then I'll feel like I've arrived. (49:21) And, sadly, whether it's IT operations or some kind of marketing motion, you you never arrive. (49:27) There's no utopia that you you you get to. (49:31) And and that's what I tell a lot of my sysadmin friends that are are worried about automation is what if I automate myself out of a job? (49:37) There'll always be something else to work on. Eric (49:40) And there's just no point in in burying yourself in work until you're done because you'll never be done. Brian (49:48) Right. (49:49) Spend some of that time learning new tech and all that because, like you you mentioned, you love to learn. (49:57) I think that resonates with our people, and that's part of the joy of the job is is learning new things. (50:05) I think if you if you you can get kinda stuck wanting to do the same thing every time. (50:10) And I don't know if if that's necessarily a a symptom of burnout, but it can be a symptom of you kind of growing stale in your career or in your way of thinking. Eric (50:22) No. (50:22) No. (50:22) I I think I mentioned in the preshow that I'm I'm in the middle of a job transition right now. (50:28) And so I've got I've got ebooks. (50:32) I've got multiple notebooks. Eric (50:35) And on one of my other monitors, I actually have a Kubernetes cluster that I've just been playing with because I've I've been a Linux systems administrator for years, and that's that's part of who I am. (50:45) It's what I've been focused on, but that's not all that I am. (50:48) And in fact, Jen, you you you made a comment about working a full time job, having a family, even having some fur kids who just walked in behind me. (51:00) But I do this because I it's it's almost like chronicling my own journey for for others. (51:07) A lot a lot like you guys came up with with swords and and defeating burnout. Eric (51:12) This is kind of one of those things that I I can I'm good with a microphone, And I I can't believe that I've been doing this part this this type of work for, gosh, six years, seven years now between podcasting, conference talking, that kind of thing. (51:29) And this is just a chance that I can I can give back? (51:31) In fact, when when I rebranded and relaunched my my podcast as the IT guy show, the the idea was Kubernetes, Docker containers, automation, cloud, all these things are huge and don't even get me started on the AI front. (51:49) Oh my gosh. (51:50) All these things are are so important in in IT operations. Eric (51:55) But if you're just a Linux sys admin, how do you get from from there to to here? (52:01) And and so part of, like, sort of the more deep technical side, I'm hoping to kind of build a journey through these episodes to go from Linux as your thing, but now Linux is Linux is Linux because you can go on any cloud platform and deploy any type of Linux you want. (52:19) So is it really so important? (52:23) Ignore the red fedora on my shirt. (52:26) But is it really important to use Linux? Eric (52:30) And then your boss comes and says, alright. (52:32) We want this Kubernetes thing, we want it next week. (52:37) Well, I don't know how to get there because I've installed Kubernetes a dozen times in the last ten years, and I never get past that that point of, alright. (52:45) It's installed. (52:46) I can I can run through the deal, and I can see that I've got I've got servers that are running and they're ready? Eric (52:52) Now what? (52:53) Mhmm. Brian (52:56) Yeah. Eric (52:57) It was a tangent. Brian (52:58) We we were talking Eric (52:58) about burnout. Brian (53:01) But you see, what what you did there, though, is a little bit of your passion came through. (53:07) And where you can, work your passion into your job. (53:10) And that to me, hearing more about what you've what you've done, that's that's exactly what you did. (53:18) You took some of the things that you had a passion for, and you're working them into it. (53:22) And that's that's what we try to do as as well. Brian (53:27) You know, my fulfillment at work, lot of times, would come from this wonderful script or, oh, it took one week to do this. (53:34) Now it takes five hours, you know, these kind of things. (53:36) Now I I feel much more satisfied helping people at my work and and other places help themselves get through things. (53:50) You know? (53:51) I've I learned a long time ago, you know, the the teach a man to fish type Mhmm. Brian (53:55) Thing. Eric (53:56) Oh, for sure. Brian (53:57) Yeah. (53:58) Don't give them the fish. (53:59) Teach them the fish. (54:01) But so that's what I like to do. (54:04) And what that has helped me, you know, as a as a manager some too is you find the people that are interested in getting on that improvement loop for themselves and in the career. Brian (54:18) And when I'm around those people, I feel better, and I I get better. (54:24) And I get a a lot you know, I wanna give back. (54:28) Here's the all these lessons that I learned here. (54:31) How can I get that down to people without sounding like I'm, you know, being holier than thou or anything like that? (54:40) So like you were saying, I just love to give back to people, and we just wanna wanna do that in our in our journey. Jen (54:50) We don't even wanna suffer the way that we did, to be honest. (54:56) Like Eric (54:56) Right. Jen (54:57) Straight to the heart of the matter here. (55:01) I mean, when we were doing validation interviews with IT folks, especially when they were talking with me at first, because I am coming from a non IT space, and I think they would also know as a therapist, and so they might feel a little cautious. (55:15) But after it was clear that I really heard what they had to say and that I was a safe person to talk to, So many folks in IT are suffering, and they're having to suffer kind of silently Mhmm. (55:27) And act like everything's just fine, and it's not just fine. Eric (55:31) Well, the expectation is that's your job. (55:33) That's what you're supposed to do, and that's that's not healthy. Jen (55:36) No. Brian (55:37) Right. (55:37) And and sometimes mental health in general, it can mean a lot of things to a lot of people, but Mhmm. (55:44) In some areas, could be stigmatized. (55:47) Well, mental health is also it it's about being more fulfilled, happier, you know, not getting into dark places, and and and, really, your enjoyment of life goes up if your mental health is better. (56:04) Mhmm. Brian (56:04) And prioritizing that is one of the things that I I had to do. (56:10) I mean, I was I was there with that work first mindset. (56:13) Hey, Jennifer. (56:14) Let's go by the data center for just a minute so I can look at this one thing. (56:18) You know? Jen (56:20) We still make jokes about that. (56:22) I mean, years later, he'll be like, do you wanna go to the data center for one minute? (56:25) I'm like, yeah. (56:25) No. Brian (56:27) You know, those those kind of things. (56:29) So you have to prioritize you have to prioritize yourself, your mental health at some point. (56:34) You know, some people realize that they need to maybe there's a physical aspect, and they prioritize their physical health. (56:41) And kudos to those to those folks. (56:46) But mental health is arguably more important. Jen (56:50) Well, they're intertwined. Brian (56:51) They are intertwined. Jen (56:52) In there. (56:53) We have we have such strong evidence with physical activity now, and I think people tend to put that in a little silo and think it's all just, oh, I have to go to the gym. (57:06) Whatever movement works for you, which is part of the reason we incorporated swords Brian (57:11) Right. Jen (57:11) Because it is physical motion. Brian (57:13) But not only swords. (57:14) Swords your way. Jen (57:16) Swords your way. (57:16) Yes. (57:17) Mhmm. (57:17) But, I mean, the research behind movement, period, is so strong for mental health. (57:25) I think we're getting to a point where I'm hopeful they're gonna allow doctors to just write a script to do it. Jen (57:32) The evidence is that strong. (57:34) A lot of folks wanna align it with, I don't know, weight loss or something. (57:37) It's not that strong for weight loss. (57:39) Mhmm. (57:40) It's super strong for mental health. Brian (57:43) Mhmm. Eric (57:43) Well, I mean, to your point, I don't think it's any coincidence that around the time that I was making the shift from IT operations into I I started with technical sales. (57:54) So sysadmin to solutions architect. (57:57) I don't think it's any coincidence that I was able to make that transition mentally and career wise. (58:03) But because at the same time, I actually was on a tear of just I lost 20 pounds. (58:09) I stopped drinking pop every day. Eric (58:11) I was working out. (58:13) I I found out that I still hate cardio, but I I love strength training. (58:18) Like, I'm I'm five foot four and not physically imposing. (58:22) But, you know, my peak, I could bench press twice my twice my body weight. (58:27) Wow. Eric (58:27) And that was that was really awesome. (58:30) Granted kids, COVID, and life, everything. (58:33) I've put 18 of those back on. (58:35) But as part of this job transition, I'm trying to build it into this transition that I get back to the gym, get back to that strength training because I felt so much better. (58:44) I look so much better. Eric (58:46) And, you know, I like like I said, then at that time when I made that transition, career wise, I was making that physical transition as well. (58:55) And I think the physical and mental, benefits from getting into into good physical shape gave me the energy and the confidence boost I needed to make that difficult transition at work. Brian (59:07) Right. (59:07) Right. (59:08) And with the strength training, you you you get these incremental wins and you Mhmm. (59:14) You're learn you're learning form. (59:16) You're you're being able to do some things, and it it it is. Brian (59:20) It helps your confidence. (59:22) It's getting you to a goal that you wanted to reach. (59:26) And, yes, it it's a physical activity that Mhmm. (59:30) You know, it's you know, I'll I'll go back to sword. (59:33) Just like swords, same thing. Brian (59:34) You you can do that. (59:36) But it's also any activity, as Jennifer was saying earlier, there's benefits definitely there. (59:41) Well, Jen (59:42) I know he knows I started strength training. (59:45) I didn't understand how good it was gonna be. (59:49) And right around the time I started, there was a major study released that said that for long term depression prevention and alleviation, lifting heavy weight for women was the number one activity that you could do. Brian (1:00:04) Wow. (1:00:04) And Jen (1:00:06) I now I am not a neuroscientist, so I cannot tell you about the chemical function. (1:00:12) But what I can tell you is that on days when I lift, I have more energy. (1:00:19) My mood is fantastic. (1:00:21) I feel calmer. (1:00:24) It it does wonders. Jen (1:00:25) So I'm just I'm ready to become the tank that I play in games. Brian (1:00:31) She could already hit pretty dang hard with a sword too. (1:00:34) So she gets some guns on her. (1:00:37) She's gonna Yeah. Jen (1:00:39) I think you're watch out. Eric (1:00:44) So any any closing thoughts? (1:00:45) Any anything you wanna leave our our viewers with? Jen (1:00:50) I think for me, I just wanna leave them with you've got to do something to have fun. (1:00:58) Right. (1:00:59) You've got to. Brian (1:01:00) I'm gonna echo that. (1:01:02) Do something to have fun. (1:01:04) And sometimes you may have to look into what you think is fun because maybe sometimes you just gotten into a rut, and what you thought you like doing is not really what you like doing. (1:01:14) Mhmm. (1:01:15) And if if you can't think of something, try something new. Brian (1:01:19) You know, do strength training if you've never done strength training. (1:01:22) Do a d and d campaign if you've never done a d and d campaign. (1:01:26) Buy a new board game. (1:01:27) We did this the other the other day and a few times. (1:01:31) You get a new board game, one of these complicated ones that you takes you a long time to figure out and, you know, figure it out. Brian (1:01:37) If you don't like it, then then, you know, don't stick with it. (1:01:40) But try something new if you if you don't have a go to fun thing. (1:01:46) And and look for those signs of burnout because that you know, it's it's real, and it it can affect your job performance and your mental health. (1:01:54) But more than that, it can affect affect your relationship to maybe the people that are closest to you. (1:02:03) So, definitely looking be on the sign look for the signs of burnout and get that fun aspect of something in there to help put you in a different mind state. Eric (1:02:18) Well, I tell you what I'm gonna do. (1:02:20) Renaissance Fest is going on right now in Jen (1:02:22) So the Eric (1:02:24) I think I might go talk to some of the some of the actors and see where they learn to to sword fight. Brian (1:02:28) Right. (1:02:29) Right. Jen (1:02:29) Definitely. (1:02:31) So you can make your sword play plan. Eric (1:02:33) There you go. (1:02:33) Yes. (1:02:34) Exactly. (1:02:36) Hit the gym, get the strength training back because, you know, at five foot four, I'm probably not one to wield a great sword, but, you know Jen (1:02:43) Okay. (1:02:44) Well, so cool thing is if you've got people that are interested in swords, and then if they hear you say something like a great sword and they're thinking, like, their mobility limited or weight limited, lightsabers are a great option. Eric (1:02:56) There you go. (1:02:57) And I'm a huge nerd to boot, so that works. Brian (1:02:59) Right. (1:03:01) And, you know, the there's different styles, you know, the two handed swords, one handed sword. (1:03:05) There are the rapiers, or the fencing swords. (1:03:10) You know? (1:03:10) Hey. Brian (1:03:11) A battle axe will work. Eric (1:03:12) There you go. Brian (1:03:14) And I've I've I've used a lot of those different ones, and there is something about holding that two handed sword that is pretty special. Jen (1:03:21) It's cool. Brian (1:03:22) Yeah. (1:03:22) The lightsaber kind of scratches that itch a little bit. (1:03:25) It's more like a katana if if you've ever Eric (1:03:27) Mhmm. Brian (1:03:28) Yeah. (1:03:28) Wielded a a katana. (1:03:30) And so, yeah, look into look at some different things. (1:03:33) We do have a few links on our Discord that has some, which, you could get to Jen (1:03:40) Yes. (1:03:40) From our side. (1:03:41) If they go and get their free video from the link, we'll send them an email that will have the Discord in it. (1:03:47) It'll probably be in their second email. (1:03:49) We're not gonna email you to death. Jen (1:03:50) We swear. (1:03:51) I tell you explicitly how many you're gonna get. (1:03:55) And then Eric (1:03:56) I'll have to go double check that email for the Discord link because I don't think I'm in your old server. (1:03:59) So Brian (1:04:00) Okay. Eric (1:04:00) We'll have to exchange Discord links. Brian (1:04:02) Yeah. (1:04:03) Yeah. (1:04:03) There's a there's a few, links there to some different types of swords and some different places where there's, like, some you know, how to do some sword play resources anywhere from medieval learning how to do dueling, hitting each other as hard as you can to choreography Mhmm. (1:04:24) Some different things. (1:04:24) So there's just a few helpful links to get you started if you if you wanna look there. Jen (1:04:28) Yeah. (1:04:28) And Brian will always just talk to you about it. (1:04:30) If you don't wanna read through the links, Brian (1:04:32) just talk to him. (1:04:33) He'll tell Jen (1:04:33) you about it. Brian (1:04:34) I'm I'm having to I'm having to pause and because, yes, I could talk about Swords for a long time. Eric (1:04:43) So so call to action is go join the Discord and engage Brian in talking about Swords. (1:04:48) That way, Ben gets a break. Brian (1:04:50) Leave leave some messages, and we'll get to it. (1:04:53) It's being at Cloud World, it's a little harder to get back, but yeah. Eric (1:04:58) Yeah. (1:04:58) And on that note, thank you all. (1:05:00) Thank thank you both so much for for joining me from Oracle Cloud World out in Vegas. (1:05:04) You guys have had a crazy busy week already, so I really appreciate you taking the time to to be a part of the show. Brian (1:05:10) Yeah. (1:05:11) Very enjoyable. Eric (1:05:12) For reaching out. (1:05:13) I really appreciate the the chance to get connected and and talk and really influence some of my thinking lately. Jen (1:05:20) Well, I it's my pleasure. (1:05:22) I'm just glad that we can all give back to one another and do more for IT folks. Brian (1:05:27) Right. (1:05:27) Right. (1:05:27) Yeah. (1:05:28) Same here. (1:05:28) Thanks for having us on the show, and really appreciate it. Brian (1:05:31) We want to you know let's let's give to each other and Jen (1:05:35) Mhmm. Brian (1:05:36) Lift each other up. Eric (1:05:37) But For sure. Brian (1:05:38) Course, you know, there is that Vader, you know, lifting up of people Jen (1:05:44) I hope Eric (1:05:44) you're not Brian (1:05:45) diss I mean it in that way. (1:05:47) But Eric (1:05:51) Well, so my guests today are Brian and Jen Horton from Dole Made Daring. (1:05:56) They are on a mission to eliminate burnout with the use of a sword. (1:06:00) So definitely go and check out the links. (1:06:03) We'll we'll have all of that information, their contact information, everything in the show notes below. (1:06:08) So definitely check that out. Eric (1:06:10) Go sign up for the mailing list. (1:06:12) I've gotten, I think, two emails already, and they they're both kind of kind of a nice deterrent or a nice redirection away from the usual vendor emails and and meeting requests and that kind of thing. (1:06:25) So short videos, really informative, give you in fact, the first video comes with an exercise that you can do at home. (1:06:32) If you've got a sword, if you have a lightsaber, or if you have a stick, doesn't really matter. (1:06:36) Yep. Eric (1:06:37) Use it. (1:06:37) Give it a try. (1:06:38) It was it was a lot of fun. (1:06:40) I felt like a dork because I'm in basically built my own studio cubicle here, and so trying to do it in front of Jen (1:06:47) my computer didn't work out that great, but Eric (1:06:48) we'll try it again in a more open space. (1:06:50) But Jen and Brian were my guests today. (1:06:53) Thank you all for joining us. (1:06:54) I know I said this was thirty minutes y'all. (1:06:56) I apologize. Eric (1:06:57) Here we are at minute number 70. (1:06:59) But Jen (1:06:59) No worries. Eric (1:07:00) But we had a great conversation. (1:07:01) Really appreciate you joining me, and we'll we'll have to have you on the show again because it it's obviously, tech is my my sort of the sort of the the fire that I burned, but that that doesn't come without learning lessons about productivity and taking care of yourself. (1:07:19) So we'll have to have you on the show again in sometime in the future. (1:07:23) Again, links in the show notes. (1:07:25) And so I think so some call to actions. Eric (1:07:30) Definitely like, subscribe. (1:07:32) Go join the Horton's Discord server, Dole May Daring. (1:07:36) The next episode of this show should be should be two weeks from when this one releases. (1:07:40) I'll be talking to gentleman from from Google talking about the art of continuous improvement. (1:07:47) And you can also catch me on my other podcast, the fedora podcast. Eric (1:07:50) I'm excited to be contributing there as a as a volunteer marketer. (1:07:54) We'll be talking about Fedora q and a. (1:07:56) So what happens when you write a piece of code, and it doesn't just get sent directly into production? (1:08:02) At least we hope not. (1:08:03) So we'll we'll talk a little bit about what Fedora Linux does to to vet out code to test things live. Eric (1:08:09) So definitely go over to Fedora podcast and catch me there. (1:08:13) Some some interesting things happening for me on the Red Hat front, so stay tuned to hear more about that. (1:08:17) But until then, on behalf of my guests, Jen and Brian Horton, thank you all for listening, and we look forward to catching you again next time. (1:08:24) Thank you so much. Brian (1:08:25) Thanks. Jen (1:08:27) Thanks. Brian (1:08:27) See you next time.