Speaker 1 (0:14) Hey there, and welcome to the IT guy show. (0:17) It's great to be back. (0:18) This is episode nine. (0:19) I know it's been a long time, but really excited to be back in the big chair and recording new episodes. (0:25) I've got probably close to a dozen topics already lined up, scheduled, ready to go. Speaker 1 (0:30) So really excited to be back with you. (0:32) It's good to be hosting a podcast again. (0:35) But enough about that because today, I have a slightly different style topic for you today, usually focused on enterprise and and and things that affect systems administrators or career type conversations. (0:48) But today, I want to dive a little bit deeper into something I'm I'm I I wish was more of a thing, and that's convergence. (0:57) That is the idea that you carry a single device, whether it's phone form factor or maybe a tablet, and be able to plug it into a dock and go from more of a tablet style workflow to a a laptop or desktop style with with a single device. Speaker 1 (1:13) That really appeals to me. (1:14) I I travel from time to time. (1:16) I try to get out of my office more nowadays, go work from a coffee shop or or take myself out to lunch. (1:23) So the idea of being able to start a project on my tablets and then take it out with me, you know, take it out to lunch and get some work done there and then come home and then go, well, I've got that that podcast episode. (1:37) I've gotta I've got to edit. Speaker 1 (1:40) So let me plug this into my doc, and it's got an external GPU. (1:43) And now I can get I can do things like video rendering, that kind of thing. (1:47) So that's the idea behind convergence. (1:50) And some time ago, canonical with Ubuntu and Unity was trying to accomplish that. (1:55) And at one point, they just stopped. Speaker 1 (1:58) And so then from we we got the UB Ports project and the community built around that. (2:04) And so I actually got in touch with a member of Lomiri, which is the renamed, rebranded Ubuntu touch project. (2:14) And so my guest today, his name is Eric. (2:18) And he and I are gonna sit down, and I wanted to talk to him about where is convergence, what is a Lomiri, and when, oh, when can I get rid of all these different devices and have just one? (2:30) So with that said, let me bring on my guest, mister Eric Moles. Speaker 1 (2:34) So, Eric, welcome to the IT guy show. (2:36) I'm really glad that you set aside some time to join me. Speaker 2 (2:39) Yes. (2:40) I'm happy to be here. Speaker 1 (2:42) So for those of you listening to the audio, that's Eric with a k. (2:45) I'm Eric with a c. (2:46) So in case you get confused, now we we can differentiate. Speaker 2 (2:51) You are quite young, Eric. (2:52) Eric was a very popular name back in the in the early seventies. Speaker 1 (3:00) Well, I'll try not to take too much offense to that. (3:02) I'm I'm an eighties baby. Speaker 2 (3:06) Oh, yeah. (3:07) So in I had once one class I was in with five other Erics. (3:13) Oh, no. (3:14) Really, really something. (3:18) But, yeah, it's with a with a minus with a k. Speaker 2 (3:21) Yeah. (3:22) And, of course, if people write write me email, they always use the c. (3:27) And probably when they write your email, they always use the k. (3:30) So that's they people always tend to mess that up. Speaker 1 (3:33) Right. (3:33) Right. (3:33) I I run into that all the time. (3:35) One last one last Eric story for for the for the audience, and then then we'll dive in. (3:40) But this this cracks me up. Speaker 1 (3:42) So the the moniker, the the brand, if you will, Eric, the IT guy, came because he used to be involved with a, like, Mumble based podcast community. (3:53) And there was an Ubuntu studio develop there developer whose Mumble handle was Eric, but he spells his name e r I c h. (4:06) My last name is Hendrix. (4:07) So a lot of places I'd be e r I c h and then the rest of my name. (4:12) And it became very confusing to be talking about Eric Hendrix versus Eric with c h. Speaker 1 (4:18) So I I found a way to differentiate myself as Eric the IT guy or IT guy Eric as I'm as all my social media handles are. (4:27) So I I think I think it was Eric Eckelmeier still involved with the Ubuntu studio community. (4:34) And so thank you for helping me come up with Eric, the IT guy. (4:40) No. (4:41) We're not here to talk about the IT guy. Speaker 1 (4:42) We're here to talk about Eric with a k and and your project. (4:48) But let's let's let's start with a little bit about who you are and and what you do for a living. Speaker 2 (4:53) So okay. (4:55) So my name is Eric Moles. (4:57) I turn on 55 next Thursday. (5:00) So Happy birthday. (5:02) Already quite long active. Speaker 2 (5:08) I started with open source back, I think, in 1993 when I installed my first Linux version. (5:18) I cannot say this one because it was before the discourse. (5:24) Right? (5:25) Okay. (5:25) True. Speaker 2 (5:26) So I I studied bioinformatics, and I have been a professor of bioinformatics and software engineering for now almost thirty years. Speaker 1 (5:42) In Speaker 2 (5:46) 2017, I basically quit. (5:49) I went started my own business. (5:53) And back in 2022, I started Open Source Science, which is basically an educational institute solely focused on open source technology. (6:08) And with open source science, we have embraced and we support the Lomiri projects. (6:18) So and then, of course, I can tell now what the Lomiri project is. Speaker 2 (6:23) If I don't, you will ask me. (6:24) So Speaker 1 (6:25) It it's like you it's like you know what I'm going to ask. Speaker 2 (6:30) So okay. (6:31) Yeah. (6:31) Well, the the basically, Lomiri is what we used to call in Linux a desktop environment. (6:42) Now Linux distributions tends to call it an operating environment, like it's something completely different. (6:54) Mhmm. Speaker 2 (6:55) In my opinion, it's not. (6:57) But okay. (6:59) So what is Lomiri? (7:00) Lomiri is a lightweight desktop environment, operating environment originally made by Canonical. (7:12) They orphaned the project, I think, back in 2014. Speaker 2 (7:20) Then it was taken over by a community. (7:25) That community is the Ubiports community, and they are responsible for Ubuntu Touch. (7:33) And Ubuntu Touch is well, it's running on this phone. Speaker 1 (7:38) Very nice. Speaker 2 (7:39) Ubuntu Touch is an basically, an operating system. (7:44) It's a full fledged Linux operating system on mobile phones. (7:50) Then specifically, two type of mobile phones that is Android based mobile phones, and they're even better, but they are very seldom. (8:01) They are very rare. (8:03) That's the the mobile phones without any Android part Mhmm. Speaker 2 (8:12) Like the pine phone, if if you know the Pine phone. (8:16) Yes. (8:17) And then you can fully run Ubuntu Touch on it. (8:21) Ubuntu Touch uses the desktop environment. (8:25) Lumiri, which was created by the reports community. Speaker 2 (8:31) But now Lumiri is becoming bigger because Lumiri is, since April 2025, also accepted by both Debian and Arch Linux. (8:44) Not in the let's say, not in the full versions, but in the in the in the in the test versions is present. (8:52) So you could install a meeting on a Debian or an Arch Linux instance. (9:00) And then you have Speaker 1 (9:01) And I Fedora as well. Speaker 2 (9:04) I don't think so yet. (9:05) I know that Speaker 1 (9:06) It's a I think it's an experiment Yes. (9:09) In Fedora. Speaker 2 (9:10) It's not one of the Red Hat's group and Red Hat's Linux interest group in Lumiri. (9:19) Because Lumiri, although you could say it's it's like in a in a in a beta state. (9:26) Mhmm. (9:26) Would you want to use it as a daily driver? (9:30) Maybe in half a year, maybe in a year. Speaker 2 (9:33) It needs to become a little bit more stable. (9:35) But it it's the unique, really unique thing about Vomiri, it's fully conversions, which means if you create an app that runs on your computer with Vomiri, That app can also be installed on your phone with Lumiri or your smartwatch with Lumiri or your smart TV with Lumiri. (10:02) So, basically, you can create one app that runs on all devices and which adapts itself automatically to the screen size if if programmed correctly, of course. (10:18) And we are not there yet because a lot of the apps which are developed for Ubuntu Touch are not developed by the developer with the conversions in mind. (10:30) So then if if you click on and I can't show you because it's a different system, different monitor. Speaker 2 (10:34) But if I click my and this is a Fairphone five five. (10:40) If I click it into my docking station, it will just pop up on the screen, big screen, my keyboard, my mouse. (10:51) I I use it. (10:52) I open an app, and the app will go full screen. (10:55) You won't notice that you're not working on a phone. Speaker 2 (11:00) You're basically working on a full fledged Linux computer Mhmm. (11:04) Which is running from a phone. (11:06) So that's what Lumiri brings. (11:08) And as far as I know, there's no other desktop environment which can offer this. (11:14) So so is this important, and that's why we jumped in. Speaker 1 (11:19) So it's been a really interesting journey to watch this space because I remember, Kash, over a decade ago, before UB Ports was a community, before before all this convergence talk, canonical, Mark Shuttleworth had this idea of convergence to where you basically would carry around a mobile device and you could plug it into a dock, and everything that was on your mobile device would then be on a screen. (11:46) You could use mouse and keyboard. (11:49) And Canonical had all these great plans around Ubuntu. (11:52) They announced Unity eight, and Unity eight was going to be, like, the next big thing. (11:58) It was it was going to blow GNOME and KDE's plasma out Speaker 2 (12:01) of the Speaker 1 (12:02) water and convergence. (12:04) And, I mean, there was just so much hype. (12:06) And as as a technologist who travels from time to time, all that sounded just beautiful. Speaker 2 (12:11) Yeah. (12:11) Lo me the unity eight. (12:13) That's the stuff. Speaker 1 (12:14) And what what happened for for the sake of our audience, what happened was Canonical one day just abandoned it. (12:22) Just said, unity eight, no. (12:24) We're not gonna do it. (12:27) This idea of Ubuntu touch, this idea of convergence, they they just shelved the entire thing. (12:33) But as as my my esteemed buddy Eric here can attest, that is the beauty and the power of the open source community is that the community ended up resurrecting Unity and Ubuntu Touch. Speaker 1 (12:47) And that's that's where we eventually ended up with Lomiri is that the community has been working on Ubuntu Touch, been working on it's now called the Ub ports project. (12:57) There's a huge community. (12:58) And even today, there's huge following of of developers and enthusiasts who are working on this. (13:04) And, you know, here we are a decade later, and you you look at you look at the likes of Google and Apple, and there's just there isn't convergence yet. (13:15) Instead, I'm a self proclaimed Apple addict. Speaker 1 (13:21) I've been stuck in the ecosystem for a long time. (13:24) And even today, I have three devices sitting on my lap sitting on my desk. (13:28) And the three of them still don't quite talk to each other the way I want. (13:32) In fact, my iPad is power is almost as powerful as the laptop that's sitting on my desk. (13:37) And yet, I still can't really plug it in to a mouse and keyboard and use it like I would a computer. Speaker 1 (13:43) You can you can blow up the apps to to a larger size, but it's still very clunky. (13:50) And so, you know, Apple's played with this approach. (13:54) I don't know that Google's really tried. (13:56) There's the likes you you're talking about convergence and docs. (13:59) There's there's the likes of the Samsung Dex, d e x. Speaker 1 (14:04) And and they're getting there, but none of these have the power of the open source community behind them. (14:10) So I think it's up to us to do that. Speaker 2 (14:12) Second version. (14:14) Okay. (14:15) Second version of Dex. (14:17) Yeah. Speaker 1 (14:18) So you'd you'd hinted that Ubiports and Lomiri are are one and the same. (14:23) So why don't could you talk us through that that transition? Speaker 2 (14:26) I Ubiports is the community. (14:29) Ubiports is the the operating system, and Omeri is basically the new name of Unity eight. (14:38) And that's done, I think, because of copyrights things that the uReports community wanted to give it their own name so they could protect it protect it better. (14:53) And, of course, you never knew what companies like economical do. (14:58) Yeah? Speaker 2 (14:59) Mhmm. (14:59) Like, the uReports community may is allowed to use the Ubuntu logo as one of the only derivatives from from the Ubuntu tree. (15:17) They are one of the only ones who are allowed to use the logo and who are allowed to use the name Ubuntu. (15:27) But the community also said, let's protect Lumiri just for the sake of we never know what happens if canonical turns right or turns left. (15:42) Mhmm. Speaker 2 (15:42) You never know what's what's going to happen. (15:45) So it's better then to have our own brand, which we can also use. (15:52) And we are now in in in the middle of, also, of rebranding Lomiri. (16:01) And that's basically because the the whole coloring of Lomiri is is giving you the ID that it's it's for Hundo. (16:12) Right? Speaker 2 (16:12) Mhmm. (16:13) It's all orange. (16:15) And so and we want to to pick other communities to pick it up. (16:22) And so next week, I'm going to the to the the devconf, the the big deviant conference in in France where which we sponsor and where our main Lumiri programmer and project leader is giving a talk about Lumiri. (16:46) And I'll be there just to show her to show her to people on my hopefully, then arrived laptop with the RISC V processor and Lumiri running on it. Speaker 2 (17:00) Oh, beautiful. (17:01) Yeah. (17:02) So, yeah, that's that's it's important developments. (17:07) And I we really believe I really believe that people would like to have one operating environment that runs on all systems. (17:17) That's because it makes it much easier, like you said, with your with your Apple devices. Speaker 2 (17:23) Makes it much easier to connect them to each other, to exchange data if they're all running on the same in the same framework. (17:32) Yep. Speaker 1 (17:34) And and, like, I'm I'm one of the weird people that don't like to have multiple systems sitting around. (17:39) I would like to have one device, take it with me everywhere, and be able to plug it into different form factors. (17:44) Like, if I could I could carry it around in my pocket like a phone and then take that same operating system, the same layout, and put it into a tablet while I'm sitting on the couch and reading. (17:53) And then I can put it into a laptop to be able to just work with me on a on a flight. (17:59) And then let's say, you know, I'm getting ready to work on this show and I could really use a GPU. Speaker 1 (18:04) I'd love to be able to just put it into a doc, have all my preferences, have all my settings, have everything go with me. (18:11) But today, we just we don't have that ability. (18:14) But that that's kind of the idea behind convergence is you you have one single operating system, one single instance that you take with you, and then and then be able to put it into different form factors Speaker 2 (18:26) Yeah. Speaker 1 (18:27) To be able to use for different use cases. (18:30) And then for me, that would be so ideal. (18:32) And in fact, I I could get rid of all the hardware sitting on my desk and I'd buy, like, two of the same thing. (18:37) That way I had the the hardware redundancy. Speaker 2 (18:40) And I can imagine why it's not happening in proprietary space. (18:47) But that I I need to think. (18:50) Yeah? (18:51) And I need also a bit maybe, like, we we would call that in Dutch, which just means the devil's advocate or or lawyer of the of the devil, meaning what evil plans are behind this. (19:10) Right? Speaker 2 (19:12) You know? (19:13) If if Apple would succeed in building convergence, then you wouldn't have bought three devices. Speaker 1 (19:22) That's that's true. Speaker 2 (19:24) You would have bought one device. (19:26) The same for Samsung. (19:28) Samsung also sells computers, and they sell they sell phones. (19:35) If it's fully convergent, then you will buy one device. (19:41) So I think that plays a role in this. Speaker 1 (19:45) Yeah. (19:47) I could see that. (19:49) That's really unfortunate, though, because I think it's a use case that so many different people would subscribe to to be able to to have the power of a desktop, but carry it around in in your pocket when you're not at your desk. Speaker 2 (20:04) And we hard looking at the hard hardware, it should be possible. (20:10) If you look at the Mhmm. (20:12) The the top the top level phones which come out, they are more powerful than than mids mid tier laptops. (20:22) Mhmm. (20:24) So it's possible. Speaker 2 (20:26) Only now, they have to build operating system to do this. (20:29) And if they don't do it, then for sure, initiatives like Lumini can can take on and and become bigger. (20:40) I like the ideas. (20:42) In in the uReports community are about, I think, thousand developers from which 300 are active and maybe 100 to 50 are very active. Speaker 1 (20:58) Now That's really impressive numbers for for an open source project. Speaker 2 (21:02) Yeah. (21:02) But most people are building apps. (21:04) Right? (21:05) They're not working on the operating system itself. (21:08) They are building apps, and that's all kind of people. Speaker 2 (21:13) So and that's important because apps are are needed, and and Ubuntu Touch does not run Android apps Mhmm. (21:24) Like many of the other. (21:27) And I don't want to offend other people who built operating system on phones, but most, in all honesty, are less more than a skin around the Google Android device. Speaker 1 (21:43) Very Speaker 2 (21:43) true. (21:44) Sorry, GrapheneOS, but yeah. (21:47) They don't like that. (21:49) But if in yeah. (21:52) For me, if if you can run if you can install Android apps, then you know then you know what what's it. Speaker 2 (22:02) It's basically an Android with a a big skin around it, degoogled as best as possible, and the intentions are good. (22:12) And I understand why they do it because it's very difficult to build to build a working a working phone from scratch. (22:21) And, like, also, you look at the Bundu Touch, two versions there are, you have the main line, which there are almost no phones which can run the main line, a few tablets, and a couple of phones, but that's all, I think, ARM based mostly. (22:41) And, like like, the Pine 64, both the phone and the tablet, but that's basically it. (22:49) And they can run without the heavy layer. Speaker 2 (22:53) All other phones, if you take a Google Pixel phone or you take the the Fairphone five, yeah, then you have the Ubuntu touch with the Helium layer. (23:04) And the Helium layer layer is basically a small part of Android which controls the hardware. (23:13) And then on top of that, then is is the Ubuntu Touch Linux, which is still more than than a lot of the others, but it's not yet everything. Speaker 1 (23:26) So what what's running under the hood? (23:28) You know, we we kinda talked about the hardware, the the abstraction layer. (23:31) So you mentioned it's still basically Ubuntu running underneath. (23:35) Are are we running one of the LTS versions of Ubuntu? (23:38) What what does that look like right now? Speaker 2 (23:39) I think the current version is twenty four zero four. Speaker 1 (23:43) Oh, I didn't know if that that project had been completed. (23:45) I know last I checked in with projects, the migration from twenty o four to twenty four zero four was underway. Speaker 2 (23:52) Yeah. (23:52) I think it's twenty four zero four now. (23:54) Oh, that's amazing. (23:55) Look could look at mine. (23:57) That was a huge problem. Speaker 2 (23:59) That was a huge problem. (24:00) Mhmm. (24:01) And there are still things that need to be done, like VoIP support. (24:07) Mhmm. (24:10) I don't know exactly because I am not running into that problem, but then I know that I know there are some countries where you basically you can't call with your Bluetooth touch phone. Speaker 2 (24:22) Mhmm. (24:24) But that has to do with the I think if they use three or four or five g, I don't know exactly the details of that, but there are countries where you can't call with your booth to touch on. (24:38) Mhmm. (24:39) And that's basically because the net provider is not offering the necessary service. (24:45) Yes, sir. Speaker 2 (24:46) And therefore, VoIP would be ideal if we could get that up and running. (24:52) But, yeah, I'm not part of the Ubuntu Touch project. (24:56) I'm mainly the education guy. (24:59) I flew in because we want we wanted to make the uBeports community not only bigger, but also better educated. (25:10) So on on Speaker 1 (25:11) on the education front, I I understand that you used to use you used to use Lumiri as part of your teaching approach. Speaker 2 (25:20) Yeah. (25:20) Lumiri yeah. (25:21) Lumiri Speaker 1 (25:21) students up as developers. Speaker 2 (25:23) Yeah. (25:24) That's true. (25:25) Yeah. (25:25) That's that's the the the the case. (25:30) But that's the case with all our education. Speaker 2 (25:34) So we have multiple programs. (25:37) Basically, we started building a four year bachelor curriculum, and that's that's done. (25:47) The you could do that, but nobody does that. (25:50) People want shorter education, and they want to get hands on help, and they want to basically, most of them want to work at the open source company. (26:02) Right? Speaker 2 (26:03) And that's we are connected to we have about 40 partnerships with open source companies and projects that's often almost the same. (26:17) Sometimes it's the same. (26:18) Some sometimes it's both. (26:20) And they give us projects and yeah. (26:26) We put students on those projects. Speaker 2 (26:28) The companies support that. (26:31) And then we hope that from that comes a nice solution. (26:35) Or that's not like we in in February, we organized a big hackathon international where, in total, 24 universities participated from 12 countries worldwide. (26:52) We had seven hundred and nineteen ninety students programming in that. (26:59) And, basically, the the winning team all got job offers. Speaker 1 (27:05) Oh, wow. (27:07) That's really cool. (27:08) And and frankly, that's how the education system should be. (27:11) I mean, my my education back in the we won't say out loud. (27:18) Fine. Speaker 1 (27:19) Back in the early two thousands, I I already admitted to being an eighties baby so people could do the math. (27:25) When when I was going for my bachelor's and eventually my master's, my my education was so far behind the the technology curve, and it was so hyper focused on Cisco switches. (27:36) I think I have one class on Linux and none of that was on the open source community. (27:42) None of it focused on free and open source software. (27:46) I mean, it was it was behind the behind the times. Speaker 2 (27:51) Yeah. (27:51) That's my my business partner said, yes. (27:56) Couple of companies, and they all run on open source, fully an open source. Speaker 1 (28:00) And Speaker 2 (28:03) he said to me, that was the reason that we started. (28:06) He said, I need to improve the sustainability of open source. (28:09) And normally, we have when people say, I need to improve the sustainability of open source, they normally mean, I need more money. (28:16) Right? (28:17) Mhmm. Speaker 2 (28:18) That was not what he meant. (28:21) He meant he said, Eric, everybody who leaves university and wants to come with to work at one of my companies knows nothing about open source. (28:35) They haven't seen open source. (28:37) They are not trained in open source. (28:39) They don't know the difference between open source and proprietor. Speaker 2 (28:44) And in all honesty, they don't care also, most of them. (28:48) So we need to change that. (28:49) So that's our mission. (28:51) Our mission is to make open source bigger and better, and and, basically, also to help the companies who need open source engineers to get them. (29:07) And and from my background, and, like, before we started recording, I'm originally a bioinformatician. Speaker 2 (29:18) And if you go into the field of bioinformatics, you will see it breathes open source. (29:27) But that's basically because we had problems thirty years ago, which nobody could I I remember a a time when I was professor of bioinformatics at a a Dutch university, And then we were I was running a big postgres cluster with all kinds of genomics data on it. (29:53) And it was a big cluster. (29:54) It had a size of about five petabytes. Speaker 1 (29:58) Oh, wow. Speaker 2 (29:59) Yeah? (30:00) That's DNA. (30:01) When you start delving into DNA Mhmm. (30:04) And you start storing lots of DNA, it really becomes a lot of data in a short short time period. (30:11) So then my my director told me, oh, Eric, there there is this guy from from Oracle, and he wants to talk to you. Speaker 2 (30:21) And, yeah, I think you should talk to him. (30:25) So and and then okay. (30:28) So then the guy said to me, so I really understand you use you use Postgres SQL for your education to the students, and could you wouldn't it be better if you would use Oracle? (30:42) Then I said, well, I don't think that Oracle can handle such large amounts of amounts of data as we are storing in our podcast database. (30:55) He was a little bit offended. Speaker 2 (30:57) He said, oh, Oracle can handle all kinds of data science. (31:01) And then he said, okay. (31:02) We have a cluster here running five petabytes. (31:05) And then he said, that does not exist. (31:07) So much data. Speaker 2 (31:08) I said, well, maybe that's part of your problem. (31:13) Then he said, oh, well, just come come come next week. (31:17) You come a weekend over to Geneva in Switzerland, take your wife with you, and and we will convince you you should start using Oracle. (31:26) So I politely refuse, but that's what happening. (31:31) Right? Speaker 2 (31:32) And in Europe, it's all what what we call that in Dutch behind the elbows. (31:40) So it's in full secrecy. (31:42) But in The USA, they blatantly advertise with it. (31:49) If you go to a to an American university, you will see to the IT study, you will just see sponsored by Microsoft, by Oracle, by Cisco. (31:59) So you know the curriculum before you go to it. Speaker 2 (32:03) It's paid by them. (32:05) So, of course, you will not learn anything about open source, which is strange because 98% no. (32:15) 89% of all servers will drive run on Linux. Speaker 1 (32:20) Mhmm. Speaker 2 (32:21) Also, servers. (32:23) Yeah. (32:25) I still don't understand that. Speaker 1 (32:27) So let me let me pick your brain for a second. (32:29) And then, hopefully, the the audience will indulge a little bit of a of a side trail here. (32:35) I recently announced that I'm going to work for Johnson County Community College out in the Kansas City Metro Area in the the heartland of The United States. (32:43) I'm starting as an adjunct professor this fall. (32:46) So I'll be teaching my first class here in here in just a few weeks, And I'm really looking forward to it. Speaker 1 (32:52) And it's it's an introduction to Linux two class. (32:55) So it's based on the LPC one zero one dash 500 exam. (32:59) And I'm really looking forward to it. (33:03) And I really wanna bring my open source experience to bear. (33:06) What what advice would you give to to a new or or or even a seasoned professor that or teacher that's involved with Linux computers and open source? Speaker 2 (33:18) Oh, that's that that's that's a good one. Speaker 1 (33:21) No. (33:21) No. (33:21) Complete curveball we didn't talk about beforehand. Speaker 2 (33:23) So No. (33:24) No. (33:24) No. (33:24) It doesn't when I was in your shoes, as we as we say in Dutch, we have a lot of of figurative speaking and speech in Dutch. (33:36) And you should learn that because you have a Dutch family name like that. Speaker 2 (33:39) I already said. Speaker 1 (33:40) I didn't know that. (33:40) You pointed that out to me in the preshow. (33:42) So I'm I'm I'm eager to go and dive into into my family history. Speaker 2 (33:45) Yeah. (33:46) For sure. (33:46) I know for sure I have a couple of Hendrix in my family tree. (33:51) Yeah. (33:52) But it's it's quite common name, and you can see with the c k in it that it's it's yeah. Speaker 2 (34:01) They were quite early, I think, with getting to The USA. (34:04) Yeah. (34:04) But so when I had my first Linux one zero one and one zero two group, that was, I think, back in 1999 or or February, something like that. (34:24) It was quite a struggle because the students basically were asking me why do we have to do this? (34:32) Oh, no. Speaker 2 (34:34) So different from from my Windows system. (34:38) And in my Windows system, I can find everything. (34:41) And here, I have to learn everything anew. (34:45) So that was that was quite a thing. (34:49) But when you have people really interested in it, yeah, it's it's it's very nice. Speaker 2 (34:55) And the main issues we we had in those days was the difference between distributions. (35:04) And then mainly the different package managers, and then also the different locations where the software would be installed. (35:17) So you would install, let's say, program x, and then it would have a dependency with program y. (35:28) And during the installation, you would get an error message that program y is not on your system, but you think, but it is there. (35:39) And then you have to edit basically the install scripts and to write at a different location. Speaker 2 (35:45) And that is just too much for students who who just start with with Linux. (35:53) So Speaker 1 (35:55) I'm sure there's a bunch of us as admins out in the audience that are going, just check the path. (36:00) Just update the path variable. (36:01) It's it's fine. Speaker 2 (36:03) Yeah. (36:04) Most important, I think, is they should install that as a primary operating system for themselves. Speaker 1 (36:12) Totally agree. Speaker 2 (36:13) If if if you and that happens a lot, of course, people have to learn Linux. (36:19) They do that on their trusted Windows environments. (36:23) So then they install a a virtual virtual machine software, like like Oracle's VirtualBox Speaker 1 (36:33) Mhmm. Speaker 2 (36:33) Which is open source. (36:36) It's one of the few open source projects of of Oracle. (36:40) And then they install it virtually. (36:44) But if the computer hasn't the best specs, then you can imagine how the Linux distribution will be running on their virtual operating system. (36:57) And Mhmm. Speaker 2 (36:59) They cannot enjoy their Linux installment as good as that they would have installed it natively. Speaker 1 (37:10) Agreed. Speaker 2 (37:11) So they should install native. (37:15) But, of course, you will have colleague professors who give all the subjects. (37:23) And if there are subjects where they need Windows computers for, so my advice first advice would be try to find out if there's any obligation to using Windows or Mac or whatever because that can happen. (37:46) And that, of course, is not convenient for teaching Linux. (37:51) Well, are you only going to teach Linux or other subjects too? Speaker 1 (37:55) Just I'm I'm an adjunct professor, so I'm only teaching one course. (37:59) I'm I'm a product marketer by day. Speaker 2 (38:03) Ah, okay. (38:04) So it's it's just a job next to your other job? Speaker 1 (38:09) Yep. (38:11) So we we we took a couple of side trails, but did did we did we kinda cover everything you wanted to talk about Speaker 2 (38:18) with Lumini? (38:19) I think we covered everything about Lumini. (38:22) And people can go if they go to the official science website, they can find soon, they can find the Lumiri project page there because it will be more up to date than the Lumiri project page itself because there are still a lot of broken links there, and they need to update it. (38:42) But, yeah, it's community, so you can't force people in the community. (38:48) So and we will start, hopefully, from next week onwards, we start offering bounties. Speaker 2 (38:58) Mhmm. (39:00) We have developed a crowd we call it the crowd crowd bounty software program. (39:11) So, basically, you know you know bug bounties. (39:15) Right? (39:16) Mhmm. Speaker 2 (39:17) And in my personal opinion, bug bounties are not honest. (39:24) Interesting. Speaker 1 (39:25) Why why do say that? Speaker 2 (39:27) Yeah. (39:27) What's not what's what's not honest on it? (39:29) Well, 100 people can invest a lot of time to try to solve the the same bug, and often the security is that. (39:42) And then the one who writes his report the first at at first gets the money. (39:47) But we don't want that. Speaker 2 (39:49) Mhmm. (39:49) We don't want that people invest weeks of time in building software to see that the prize money is snatched away just before they they reach the final. (40:03) So that that we get the one that we couldn't find an honest piece of software, so we have developed that ourselves. (40:12) Basically but it's a smart smart one. (40:17) So I don't know if it's in the full version already available, but it runs on Odoo. Speaker 2 (40:23) We we run all of business processes on Odoo community. (40:28) Right? (40:28) You have Odoo enterprise if you Odoo community. (40:31) We run it on Odoo community. (40:33) So we have developed an Odoo login to just put the bounties there, but it's a smart one. Speaker 2 (40:44) So if, for example, university you're going to work at says, hey. (40:50) This is interesting. (40:51) We also want to run the bug bounty program, and you have an Odoo instance, you can install the same module and you can say, oh, we team up with OpenShore Science. (41:02) And then both instances will replicate the bounties on on both sides. (41:10) So you can get the decentralized bounty network. Speaker 2 (41:14) That's basically the idea. (41:17) And we know we are going to run it. (41:21) You reports is going to run it. (41:23) And we hope that in the future, more open source projects will join us, run the bug bounty or the crowd bounty software so that we can create an environment where we, in all honesty, can pay developers for work that they are doing. (41:45) So we're trying to make some of the open source communities more sustainable by integrated it into the businesses. Speaker 1 (41:59) That's I'll have to chew on that. (42:02) I'll I'll have to look at the at your all's approach to the bug bounty program because that's that's not a problem I had really thought about. (42:07) I mean, most of the time, we're just trying to convince organizations to use or and or sponsor a bug bounty program. (42:14) Didn't really give much thought to the fact that someone could have developed a more elegant solution, but yet they don't get reimbursed for it because someone else, as you said, beat them to the prize money. (42:29) So that's that's an interesting problem and not one I realized was a problem in open source. Speaker 1 (42:34) May maybe with the future discussion. Speaker 2 (42:36) You think that the problem is more viewable or noticeable in software projects than in security projects. (42:46) There's a lot of the bugs in security projects are things you can do in one or two days. (42:50) And that's, of course, okay. (42:52) It's still not nice if somebody else beats you, but, heck, it's it's it's one day or it's two days. (42:58) Mhmm. Speaker 2 (42:59) But if you have developed software for a month because you wanted that price money and now somebody else just beat you with one hour, we are afraid not only that it's not honest, but we're also afraid that we will lose a soul to the open source community. (43:19) Somebody who is so disappointed that he will never do that again, and that we do not want. (43:24) Right. (43:25) So in our system, you can claim or pre preclaim or park a block for a period of time. (43:38) And let's say we are expecting that this development takes four weeks. Speaker 2 (43:43) So you want to build it, you can park it for six weeks. (43:46) If you do not deliver in six weeks, we will open it up again and other people can then try to park it. (43:53) So that's that's the idea behind it. Speaker 1 (43:57) So more of an open source contractor board than than BugBant. Speaker 2 (44:01) Yeah. (44:02) Yeah. (44:02) Yeah. (44:02) Something like that. Speaker 1 (44:04) I I think that's a very elegant solution. Speaker 2 (44:08) Yep. (44:10) And and we are talking with with interested people. (44:14) Like, I'm try I'm I'm talking also with Brian Osborne, who is the owner of the the Linux magazine. (44:23) He lives in Germany. (44:26) So and and he also runs he runs the biggest website in Opserve jobs worldwide. Speaker 2 (44:37) Forgot the name, but yeah. (44:39) So Speaker 1 (44:39) No worries. Speaker 2 (44:41) There are a lot of possibilities there. (44:42) And and, also, why are you also you you often see these memes where people say, oh, yeah. (44:51) I I I don't I stopped developing open source money because I need to feed my kids. (44:57) Mhmm. (45:00) Why? Speaker 2 (45:01) Yeah? (45:02) There are a lot of companies making a lot of money in open source. (45:08) So why can't we create an environment where we can also and, like, if you if you look at projects which are fully fully open source community projects, like, let let's say, Thunderbird Mhmm. (45:26) Your client. (45:28) You know how that's that's financed, Thunderbird? Speaker 1 (45:34) Is it it's not sponsored by the Mozilla Foundation anymore, is it? Speaker 2 (45:37) No. (45:38) It's it's fully donation. (45:41) So they I I spoke to the CEO, I think, a year ago, and then they had I think in 2023, they had about $15,000,000 in donations. (45:54) Oh, wow. (45:56) But that there's still a people giving money that are often not companies, but just people like you and me sitting at home paying money. Speaker 2 (46:07) So there are people who are willing to pay money for open source software. Speaker 1 (46:12) Mhmm. Speaker 2 (46:13) It's not about the money. (46:14) Yeah. (46:14) That's what Richard Stallman also often has said. (46:18) Free software doesn't mean that it's rather they fucked away. (46:25) You you still can be possible that you need to pay for it. Speaker 2 (46:30) So why not make it healthy environments where people get an honest pay for the work they have done? Speaker 1 (46:39) Very true. Speaker 2 (46:40) At least the possibility that they get an honest pay. (46:43) And if there are enough people who are willing to pay, then a bounty system can facilitate that. (46:51) At least that's what we think. Speaker 1 (46:57) Well, Eric, any any closing thoughts for our audience? Speaker 2 (47:01) Visit the OpenCourseWare science. (47:04) I'm sure you will mention mention our URL or URI. Speaker 1 (47:11) For sure. (47:11) Any any links or projects that we've discussed will definitely end up in the show notes as well as links to the podcast channel, whether that's audio or whether you're watching video. (47:23) But, Eric, I really appreciate your time and and hope to have you on the IT guy show again sometime soon. Speaker 2 (47:29) Yeah. (47:30) We'll see. (47:31) And good luck with your job as a professor. Speaker 1 (47:34) Thank you. (47:34) I'm really looking forward to it. (47:36) As as much as I've grown to love product marketing over the last few years, really excited to be a teacher. (47:42) It was it was a career path adjustment that I never imagined I would have pursued, but interviewed and really loved the idea. Speaker 2 (47:51) Thank you for your hospitality, and see you. Speaker 1 (47:57) You're welcome. (47:58) Any you're welcome back anytime to talk about anything you'd like. Speaker 2 (48:01) That's good. (48:02) Okay. Speaker 1 (48:04) Thank you, Eric, so much. (48:05) I really appreciate you jumping in. (48:07) I've just now noticed that there's some weirdness with the video recording. (48:10) It's not supposed to go back and forth. (48:12) The recording is supposed to have a side by side. Speaker 1 (48:14) I just thought maybe that was just me, but apparently not. (48:17) So so sorry about that. (48:18) But, Eric, thank you for joining me. (48:19) Really appreciate it. (48:20) This has been episode nine of the IT guy show. Speaker 1 (48:23) A little bit different topic today, but one that I'm excited about, hopefully, one day soon. (48:29) I might actually have to go out and get, a pine tab or something and and start playing with Lumiri. (48:33) But the idea of being able to have a single device really feels good. (48:37) And it's great to see UB ports and Ubuntu touch and all that kind of thing moved into UB ports, the end of the community like a project, an open source project is supposed to. (48:49) It's supposed to outlive the companies that built it, or in this case, outlive the company's interest in a project, and and to be able to see that grow and expand and and kinda shed the the old shell of UB ports and become Lumiri. Speaker 1 (49:02) So really excited to to see where that goes. (49:05) We'll keep an eye on that topic. (49:06) And, Eric, we'll we'll make sure to bring you back in sometime soon. (49:10) If you enjoyed this topic, please leave me a comment. (49:13) Hit hit the like button or reach out to me on our Discord server. Speaker 1 (49:17) I've got that up and running again. (49:20) Until then, we've got our next episode already planned out. (49:24) It'll be in two weeks. (49:25) Christian Hernandez, a buddy of mine, former coworker, has gone through the through the data center administrator to systems administrator to now Kubernetes and and vendor marketing journey. (49:39) It's very similar to my path. Speaker 1 (49:40) And so he and I are gonna sit down here in a couple of weeks and talk about GitOps and what that actually means. (49:45) One of my favorite things to do on this show is to take dumb marketing terms. (49:50) I say that as a marketing guy. (49:52) Taking dumb marketing terms and converting those those ideas into what is this really for for you all, my audience. (49:59) I really appreciate you tuning in. Speaker 1 (50:01) So looking forward to talking to Christian Hernandez about GitOps for the Linux systems administrator here in two weeks. (50:07) Until then, make sure to check out the other episodes that I've got. (50:10) This was episode nine. (50:12) So you got eight others you can binge in two weeks. (50:15) So definitely appreciate you all tuning in. Speaker 1 (50:17) Make sure to tell a friend. (50:18) And until then, I will see you soon.