Eric (0:14) Hey there, and welcome to the IT guy show. (0:16) I'm your host, Eric, the IT guy Hendrix. (0:18) This is episode 17, and today we're going to be talking about a topic that is top of mind for so many people right now, especially in the technology industry. (0:27) That's how do I find a job? (0:29) What what is what is LinkedIn job hunting? Eric (0:32) Can I find a job using LinkedIn? (0:34) Well, having found, maybe not directly, but definitely indirectly, both of my current roles using LinkedIn and my network, I think today is a very, very appropriate topic. (0:45) I kinda talked about the layoff process last week and and how to kind or a couple of weeks ago during the last episode, I talked about how to how to survive a layoff. (0:55) So my guest today is Jeffrey, and he has built a strategy, if you will, around job hunting on LinkedIn. (1:04) So without further ado, let me introduce my guest today, and let's dive into today's topic. Eric (1:10) Jeffrey, welcome to the IT guy show. Jeffry (1:12) Thank you. (1:12) Happy to be here, and thanks for having me. Eric (1:16) Definitely. (1:16) Thank you for being patient. (1:17) I know, I know we've had this, plan for quite some time, but really excited to have you on the show. Jeffry (1:23) Thank you. Eric (1:25) So why don't you, tell us a little bit about yourself, who you are, what you do, and and, and tell us something you do for fun as well. Jeffry (1:32) Oh, okay. (1:34) So, again, thank you, Eric, for having me on. (1:37) I am Jeffrey Ullman. (1:40) Been in the IT space a long time, over thirty plus years, three zero. (1:46) And I'm proud of that, by the way. Jeffry (1:49) Not everybody agrees, but that's another topic. (1:51) We can come back to that. (1:53) I spent about twenty six years or so at IBM, about six years or so at at at Oracle. (2:04) Spent about two years at a company called Avnet. (2:08) And then most recently, IT wise, spent about two years at air at Eric not at Eric. Jeffry (2:15) At Red Hat, and that's where I met Eric when we were both at Red Hat. (2:20) That's another story, but we can come back to that. (2:23) When I left Red Hat after thirty or so years, I thought I might wanna do something else. (2:32) So I have lived and worked in South Florida for the thirty plus years and was aware of the tech ecosystem with that was happening locally. (2:41) So I joined a nonprofit called South Florida Tech Hub, hence the name. Jeffry (2:47) And we're a nonprofit supporting the tech ecosystem, startups as well as large companies, Office Depot, Ryder Logistics, a lot of large companies as well. (2:57) And I'm currently director of membership supporting existing companies and or organizations. (3:05) We have other nonprofits that are members as well as hopefully helping the organization grow. (3:11) So as Eric mentioned, part of what I've done over the years, and we'll we'll get into that, is actually use LinkedIn to to find a job. (3:21) So that's a little about me. Jeffry (3:23) What do I do for fun? (3:26) Well, I'm actually I I grew up in Savannah, Georgia. (3:31) And I think indirectly, I became a history buff. (3:35) So I watch a lot of the history channel, and we can have another show on the history of Savannah, Georgia, has a lot of history. (3:44) So history in general is kind of something I'm interested in for fun. Eric (3:48) So why don't we dive into this a little bit? (3:52) First off, was there a moment or or maybe maybe a story that that really impacted you, something that sparked this passion for job hunters? Jeffry (4:03) Yeah. (4:03) That's an interesting question. (4:05) So having having needed a job, having been laid off, I use LinkedIn to actually find some of the roles. (4:17) And I noticed there are a lot of thought leaders out there on LinkedIn. (4:23) A lot of great thought leaders about branding, personal branding, LinkedIn profile optimization. Jeffry (4:31) All of that stuff's important. (4:34) I was laser focused on finding finding a new role, and I noticed a lot of the thought leaders talked about indirectly finding a new role, but nobody really focused on it. (4:47) And then I realized, and I talked to a few of them privately, and they agreed that none of them ever found a job actually found a job on LinkedIn using LinkedIn. (4:58) And that said, okay. (4:59) Well, then maybe as a giveback, given all the time and effort I spent since the reality is they've never really found a job on LinkedIn. Jeffry (5:08) I have. (5:09) I put, decided to go ahead and put my, methodology together. Eric (5:14) That's awesome. (5:15) And I and I I kind of alluded to this last episode as well that with technology and with with AI entering the job job search process, it's really difficult to kind of cut through the noise and and to make yourself kind of visible. (5:35) I myself found my current role. (5:38) I work for a company called TuxCare as a product marketer, and so my job is to build messaging and build content and that kind of thing. (5:44) I actually found that job through LinkedIn. Eric (5:47) And then I'm also working as a professor, an adjunct professor. Jeffry (5:53) Do I have to call you doctor? Eric (5:55) No. (5:55) I don't have a PhD. (5:56) Okay. (5:57) But my my wife, for some reason, refuses to call me a professor. Jeffry (6:03) Okay. Eric (6:04) But but I'm actually teaching an introduction to Linux course, and that job I sort of found through LinkedIn. (6:12) People I'm connected to through my LinkedIn network actually knew about the job at Johnson County Community College just not too far from where I live and, told me about the job. (6:22) I applied, and and, you know, I've been been teaching for a few months now, and I love it. (6:26) Oh my gosh. (6:27) It's it's so exciting to connect with folks and teach Linux and to engage with with the academic community as well. Eric (6:37) And I kinda had the same experience, and that's that's kinda how you and I came to to Right. (6:41) To today's conversation was. (6:43) I I even hired someone when I was job hunting earlier in the year to help me with my profile, to help me stand out, to help kind of grease the algorithm as it was. (6:54) And that's that's all we focused on was, well, your your headline needs to be this and you should have these keywords in your description. (7:00) All those things are incredibly important. Jeffry (7:02) Right. Eric (7:02) But the problem is that doesn't really show you how to how to move forward. Jeffry (7:08) Exactly. (7:09) Exactly. (7:10) You said it better than I did. (7:12) I realized a lot of the other thought leaders, they're great at all of that, and that is extremely important. (7:18) But once you get all that done, what do you do next to find a job? Jeffry (7:22) And they're really not that helpful, I found. Eric (7:26) Yeah. (7:26) I I totally agree. (7:27) And it it's it's not an either or. (7:29) I think you have to have both. (7:30) Think it's Jeffry (7:31) a little Correct. Eric (7:33) So you you you hinted in your intro that you've been doing this for about thirty years, maybe about twenty six before kinda shifting your focus. (7:42) Can you kind of talk about how that experience set you up for for for what you're doing today? Jeffry (7:48) Yeah. (7:49) So I kind of alluded to this. (7:52) So for those of you out there listening or and or watching, if you have recently lost your role or this is your first time looking for a job, primarily for those that have lost your role, I I've been there. (8:08) I've been late. (8:09) I'm fine and happy to say I've been laid off more than once in thirty plus years. Jeffry (8:16) So I was laid off from IBM after twenty six years. (8:19) So you can imagine that wasn't a pleasant experience. (8:23) But so the reason I mentioned that is I I do know what it feels like, to be laid off. (8:29) I do know what it feels like to be looking for a job, and I I do know what it takes, I think, to, to find a new job, leveraging LinkedIn. (8:40) So that's part of, the reason I mentioned that is that I've, I've been there. Jeffry (8:46) I know how you feel. (8:47) I feel your pain. (8:49) And everything, pretty much everything that we're gonna talk about and that I've documented in my presentation, which I've also made available for free, and we'll we'll talk about that, I've done. (9:02) So I personally know how you feel, and I've personally documented and used everything that I've talked about. (9:09) And I think and we'll talk more about this as well, but I think it's also important to to give back. Jeffry (9:14) And that's the other reason I I did all of this and put that methodology and presentation together. Eric (9:21) Yeah. (9:22) One one of the things that you kinda helped me understand, this past year is that layoffs are a fact of our industry Jeffry (9:30) Right. Eric (9:31) Now now more so than ever. (9:33) And one of the keys that I've I've discovered both in in talking with you and talking with others is you can absolutely not take it personally. (9:42) It's Right. (9:42) It's just a fact of of our existence. (9:45) It's just a fact of the industry. Eric (9:49) And, you know, getting laid off earlier this year was the second time, maybe third, depending on, you know, if you count an internship. Jeffry (9:55) I think I might be a little older than you, Eric. Eric (9:59) Just by a few weeks. Jeffry (10:01) There you go. Eric (10:01) So this was actually my second time getting laid off. (10:05) And what I wanna do is I wanna be prepared for if and potentially when it happens again. (10:13) So to to kinda help prepare for that inevitability and for for my audience as well, let let's start with some some of the basics here. (10:22) What what is the least understood aspect of job hunting via LinkedIn? Jeffry (10:27) Right. (10:28) So I have come to the conclusion that if you're really seriously looking for a new job, it's almost effectively a job in and of itself. Eric (10:41) Oh, for sure. Jeffry (10:42) Takes a lot of time, a lot of effort, a lot of grunt work. (10:46) So if you're going to be serious about it, I think you have to treat it like it's your new job. (10:53) It's finding a job. (10:54) The the other thing is and I I talk a lot about this in in my presentation. (11:03) It's a it's a numbers game, and, unfortunately, the numbers don't work in your favor. Jeffry (11:10) And this is kind of what you were talking about before to not take it personally just to kinda deal with the reality of the situation. (11:21) I've I've thought about this a lot, and I've done a lot of research and kind of a long story here, but let me give you the context. (11:29) So when I was in college, one of my professors said in a marketing class, and this was pre Internet. (11:40) So it was direct marketing snail mail that if you if you got a three to 5% response rate in snail mail, and I believe it translates to email as well into electronic, If you got a three to 5% response rate, it would be considered successful. Eric (12:01) Mhmm. Jeffry (12:01) Your marketing campaign. (12:03) And I do think looking for a job is is in effect a marketing sales campaign. (12:10) A lot of technical people say, Jeffrey, I'm not looking for a sales job or whatever. (12:15) I and I I suggest it doesn't matter. (12:18) Whether you're looking for a technical role, a marketing, or a sales role, you are selling yourself and you are the product. Jeffry (12:25) So if you kind of accept that, you know, scenario, I realized when I well, I got a little ahead of myself. (12:33) So I in that class, I asked a professor. (12:36) I said, okay. (12:37) Let me let me make sure I understand. (12:40) Let's use some real numbers. Jeffry (12:41) If I mail out a 100 pieces of mail and if I only get three to five responses, which would be the three to 5%, it would be considered a successful campaign? (12:54) He said, absolutely. (12:56) And that that stuck with me for a long time because I think a lot of people, quite frankly, naively think they're gonna get more of response rate. (13:06) So I've turned it around and said, well, wait a minute. (13:09) If three to 5% is considered successful, that means you're gonna get rejected 95 to a 100 per I mean, my math is off. Jeffry (13:21) Yeah. (13:21) 95 to 97% of the time. Eric (13:24) Mhmm. Jeffry (13:25) So kinda going back to what you were saying, once I realized that in effect, was gonna get rejected 95 to 97% of the time, The times I got rejected, I took it less personally. (13:39) I said the numbers are more are not working in your favor. (13:43) Right. (13:44) So I would say it's two things. (13:46) The fact it's a full time job and the fact that you're gonna get rejected a lot. Jeffry (13:51) I'll give you an example. (13:53) I hear a lot of people say, you know, Jeffrey, I've I've applied for a 100 jobs. (13:58) Sent out a 100 resumes, applied a 100 jobs on LinkedIn, and I've only gotten, I'll just say, five responses. (14:06) And I say, you are doing amazingly well. (14:09) You are on the high end of the three to 5% rejection. Jeffry (14:14) And they go, what are you talking about? (14:16) And I said, it's perfectly normal to get rejected 95 to 97%. (14:20) So if you've gotten five responses, you are doing great. (14:23) And they have to look at me. (14:25) Are you crazy? Jeffry (14:26) And I go, no. (14:27) Think about it. (14:28) So it's kind of a mindset change. (14:29) So those would kinda be the two basic basic things I think people don't realize. Eric (14:35) Oh, and and even zooming out beyond LinkedIn, as it is a full time job, more or less, the pay is terrible. (14:43) But that doesn't mean that the hours have to be terrible, though. (14:46) Right. (14:46) Especially when you're dealing with a rejection rate that high, you've gotta set boundaries for yourself. (14:51) You cannot e even if even if your your savings are running out and even if you'd have zero income, you cannot push yourself beyond what you're emotionally and and physically capable of doing. Eric (15:02) Even during that time, you've gotta take care of your body. (15:05) You've gotta take care of your mind. (15:08) And that means setting hours for yourself. (15:10) That means continuing to spend time with your family. (15:13) That means taking care of yourself physically, whether that's going out for a run or or going to a gym. Eric (15:19) I mean, you you've got to protect yourself during those times. Jeffry (15:23) Right. (15:24) Agree. (15:26) And take breaks. Eric (15:27) Yes. Jeffry (15:28) Take one break. (15:28) Take a walk break. (15:30) Mhmm. (15:31) I like that point of, you know, if you're gonna treat it as a regular job, you should have regular working hours and that kind of thing. (15:39) That's a good point. Jeffry (15:40) I'm gonna use that going forward. Eric (15:42) Yeah. (15:42) Yeah. (15:43) No no charge. (15:44) No charge for you. Jeffry (15:45) Thank you. Eric (15:47) So what's what's the the first thing a person should do if they're gonna start using LinkedIn for job hunting? Jeffry (15:53) Yeah. (15:54) So LinkedIn is a behemoth of an application. (15:57) Lot of a lot of things going on. (16:01) But what I would suggest is go ahead and and I'm I'm gonna tailor kinda everything I'm saying to The US because LinkedIn does vary by country. (16:15) So Mhmm. Jeffry (16:17) In The US, if you're gonna be looking for a job and you're seriously gonna consider it as a full time job, there's often a debate. (16:25) Should I just use the free profile or should I pay for a premium profile? (16:31) I think it's worth paying for the premium profile. (16:36) It's gotten a little more expensive, but the way I look at it is it's an investment in yourself. Eric (16:44) Mhmm. Jeffry (16:45) And there are and we'll talk a little more about that. (16:48) All of the added value you get, I think, is worth it. (16:52) So go ahead and right now, it's called premium career. (16:59) LinkedIn does change the name, so I think it's worth getting the premium paid fee model profile on LinkedIn. (17:12) So that would be the first thing I would do is go ahead, bite the bullet, go ahead and get a premium profile. Eric (17:19) Yeah. (17:19) And and I definitely did that as well. (17:23) And I know it's unfortunately, it's it's a little bit pay to play. (17:28) It it helps extend your reach. (17:30) It includes additional InMails, that kind of thing. Eric (17:33) Right. (17:33) But, it it does increase your visibility, and there's there's a lot of extra tools. (17:40) Right. (17:41) So I I wanna hear from you. (17:42) What what are some of the features of the premium Yeah. Eric (17:44) Career package that you really you really encourage? Jeffry (17:49) Yeah. (17:49) So one tip, and I didn't find out until recently, And someone about you know, we talked about building your network on LinkedIn. (17:59) Someone mentioned this to me, and it's like, oh, boy. (18:02) If you if you pay on an annual basis so so let me back up. (18:08) LinkedIn lets you go month to month, or you can pay for an annual basis on an annual basis, and you pay a year ahead of time, twelve months. Jeffry (18:18) You could try it month to month and see if you think it's worth it. (18:22) But if you are gonna continue to use it and you do pay on an annual basis, it actually reduces the monthly cost to about half of what you were paying before. (18:35) And you have to be able to afford the monthly pay I mean, the annual payment as well. (18:40) It's not cheap, but that might be something else you consider. (18:44) So it's interesting. Jeffry (18:47) There are a lot of additional features in the premium profile that you don't get in the free profile. (18:55) One of the things and you mentioned this. (18:58) You know, LinkedIn is a for business company. (19:02) One tidbit here, most people might not know about ten years Microsoft acquired link, LinkedIn. (19:09) They don't really promote that. Jeffry (19:10) They don't really brand it that way, and you kinda have to poke around. (19:14) Or remember ten years ago, LinkedIn bought them. (19:17) But what I'm old enough to have used LinkedIn prior to Microsoft. (19:22) Microsoft has start started to incorporate a lot of AI features that you mentioned. Eric (19:27) Mhmm. Jeffry (19:28) So one of the things that if you really wanna leverage AI, you really have to have a premium profile. (19:35) They a lot of the features that leverage AI are only available to premium subscribers. (19:40) But a couple of quick things, you mentioned more you mentioned InMails, which we can talk about a little later. (19:47) There's a nice feature that you can see who viewed your profile. (19:54) You can go back and see if a recruiter or hiring manager viewed your profile. Jeffry (19:59) The other thing that is interesting, the algorithm that LinkedIn uses, and they look at everything you like, everything you post, everything you read, all the jobs you've applied for previously, they have a feature that it will present you with jobs that it thinks is a good fit. (20:19) I think they call it jobs where you're a good fit. (20:23) Clever name. (20:24) And I've I've actually seen the algorithm get better and better and better. (20:32) So that's only a premium feature. Jeffry (20:34) So it's a nice way to let the algorithm you know, rather than have Skynet kill us all eventually, it's a nice way to let the algorithm work for you. (20:48) And quite frankly, I'm impressed that it does a really, really good job of presenting me with jobs that it that it thinks is a reasonably good fit. Eric (20:59) Mhmm. Jeffry (20:59) One point on that, creating job postings is more of an art and a science. (21:07) The title might be different. (21:08) The posting might be different. (21:10) The the internal algorithm does a really good job. (21:13) So that's one great feature. Jeffry (21:14) There are a lot of features I'm sure I'm leaving out. (21:17) I do document that in my presentation as well. (21:21) I think it's worth the net of it is I think there's enough value there to go ahead and pay for the premium profile. Eric (21:27) A lot of the, lot of the built in AI features and my audience knows I I kind of waffle back and forth on whether AI is a good thing or, as you mentioned, if it'll ultimately lead to Skynet in our demise. (21:39) But I one thing I really liked was some of the AI summary capabilities. (21:49) So after after you spent several hours job hunting in a day and you everything kinda blurs together. (21:56) So it's really nice to read through a a job description and just go, what? (22:01) I I have no idea what you're asking about. Eric (22:05) But to then, you know, on the right hand side of the page, you can just click summarize, and it'll say, well, this, this, and this. (22:12) And then it gives you a follow-up question that you can prompt that says, am I a good fit? (22:16) And it'll pull out things out of your resume, out of your profile, and say, well, you've got these these things or here's some areas to grow in. (22:25) And it it really helps, especially when you then go to maybe maybe fine tune your resume to a specific job application to then highlight those things very, very visibly to say that, oh, you're looking for x y z application experience. (22:41) Well, not only do I have five years of that, but I also, you know, helped build out a new implementation at at ABC company, you know, something along those lines. Eric (22:50) So a lot of the summary and explanation, the the ability to ask the AI a little bit to get some context. (22:59) Because like you said, creating a job description is is always an art, and one of my favorite interview questions to ask a company I'm interviewing with is, okay. (23:07) So I read the the job description, but tell me when I'm actually going to be working. (23:11) What what does my day look like? Jeffry (23:13) Great question. (23:15) Interestingly enough, that feature, which by the way is a great feature, it's a relatively new feature. Eric (23:21) Mhmm. Jeffry (23:21) I don't know if you're aware of that. (23:23) And the other thing it will do is it will rank what it thinks whether you're a good fit. (23:30) There's a little ranking bar. Eric (23:32) Mhmm. Jeffry (23:32) And it's pretty it's pretty good. (23:34) It's pretty good. (23:35) So the AI is it's good use of AI, and it's pretty good. (23:41) And it's it's getting better and better. (23:43) So there you go. Jeffry (23:46) A positive use of AI. Eric (23:48) There you go. (23:49) It's one of the few. (23:51) Alright. (23:52) So we've we've gotten laid off or we've decided that we need a job change. (23:56) We've gone out and signed up for LinkedIn premium. Eric (23:59) We've set ourselves some health healthy boundaries. (24:01) We've got ourselves a working schedule. (24:04) What's next? Jeffry (24:06) Yeah. (24:07) Great question. (24:08) So if you so two things. (24:12) And this is a new feature, relatively new. (24:15) You can, I guess, manually set up what LinkedIn calls job alerts? Eric (24:23) Mhmm. Jeffry (24:25) And I've based them on keywords. (24:30) And then based on the keywords, the algorithm will send you an email with a link of the jobs that think matches as that keyword. (24:42) The the other thing recently is you can use AI. (24:48) There's an AI feature to not say I'm you know? (24:53) So let's say, most of the my career has been in, I forgot to say, customer facing sales role. Jeffry (24:59) So let's say I have a I have a job alert set up for account manager. (25:04) What does that mean? (25:05) It can mean a lot of things. (25:07) So there's now a feature. (25:09) I think they still call it beta. Jeffry (25:10) You can say, well, I'm looking for a job where I'd work with customers and engage them on a day to day basis, blah blah blah, rather than a keyword, and it'll try to go out and find job postings for you. (25:24) So there are two ways now. (25:25) I would say start with the old way on keywords and have multiple job alerts. (25:32) Typically, you want four or five. (25:34) And the other thing about job alerts is not only do you wanna use keywords, but you wanna have a geographic job alert for all jobs in a certain geography. Jeffry (25:45) You wanna kinda slice and dice it both ways. (25:47) So that would be the first thing I would do when you're looking for a job. (25:50) Go ahead and set up your job alerts. Eric (25:52) And it it can get very overwhelming. (25:55) Like, do I start researching companies in my field, or do I start networking, or do I do this, or do I do that? (26:01) It's just there's so much. (26:03) Right. (26:03) And and you're absolutely right. Eric (26:05) The going into the jobs and setting up some parameters. (26:09) You can in fact, I think they've added functionality recently to, include, like, salary expectations or level of in office, presence, whether that's on-site, off-site, or hybrid, really helps kind of cut down the noise, which kinda brings me to my next question of do do you person I I have my opinion on this, and I'll share it. (26:33) But do you set up alerts to come to, like, your email or your app? (26:38) And if so, at at what frequency? Jeffry (26:41) Yeah. (26:42) Great question. (26:43) And by the way, I would use both. (26:45) I I have the email app on my phone, and then I use just browser based on my laptop. (26:52) Because there are actually some features unique to the mobile app versus the browser based. Jeffry (26:59) Maybe it's generational. (27:01) Sometimes there's more real estate on the laptop, so it's easier to use than the mobile, but use both. (27:09) So LinkedIn lets you have alerts either daily, weekly, or I think monthly. (27:17) Daily would drive you crazy. (27:20) I think monthly is too late, so I would have weekly alerts. Jeffry (27:25) And then it'll send you an email with a link to all the jobs. (27:29) So I I would start out. (27:31) Unless you really wanna get overwhelmed, which I wouldn't suggest, I would start out with weekly I'll weekly time frame for alerts. (27:39) That gives you enough time to see it and apply before you get the next one. Eric (27:43) For sure. (27:45) So I I took a slightly different approach, which is kinda why I asked. (27:49) Okay. (27:49) I turned off the notifications because it it got just crazy. (27:54) I mean, my LinkedIn feed was nuts. Eric (27:57) I I get zero LinkedIn emails, end of my design just because with with mobile devices and and with with everything that that you can do with browser notifications, I just I turned off emails. (28:09) I'm particular about what hits my email inbox and LinkedIn saying, hey. (28:14) We found these 462 jobs that might might appeal to you. (28:18) It's just like, no. (28:18) I don't know. Eric (28:20) So I I turned off notifications entirely. (28:24) And instead, I used the the job screen in LinkedIn almost like I did my regular social media feeds. (28:31) So each morning when I'd when I'd come to to work, quote unquote, you know, I'd go through my news app, and I'd see what's going on in technology because I didn't wanna fall behind there. (28:42) And I'd go through my social media feeds because I'm know, trying to maintain a presence there even though I wasn't working in IT for a few months. (28:49) And then, you know, I'd kinda settle down to to my day job, quote, unquote. Eric (28:53) I would sit down, and I'd go to the jobs page. (28:55) And I had filters set up to only let me know about jobs that met my criteria, that met those keywords. (29:03) And so all I had to do is just go to that tab, hit refresh, and then just kinda go down the list until I came across where I left off yesterday. (29:10) And so just kinda going one by one. (29:12) And what's nice is you can actually hide companies. Eric (29:14) You can hide specific jobs. (29:16) So if it's like, occasionally, something would slip through and it's like, I don't need to be an account manager for some, like, pharmaceutical company. (29:27) I I'm not sure how technical marketer how that slides through. (29:30) And so you can just hide it. (29:32) Or, like, I looked at it. Eric (29:34) I'm not a good fit. (29:35) They want a PhD and fifty two years of COBOL experience. (29:39) That's not me. (29:40) Hide it. (29:41) I don't have to see that job. Eric (29:42) It won't prompt me for that job again. (29:44) And that's just kinda how you filter things down to where then you might have, you know, 10 or 12 new job openings a day that you can kinda go through. (29:54) And of those, you might apply to four or five. (29:56) And then of those, you know and and just it's like you said, it's a numbers game. (30:00) You just gotta filter things down towards manageable. Jeffry (30:03) Yeah. (30:05) That is a good point. (30:07) Let me make a general point. (30:08) There's typically many ways to achieve the same result on LinkedIn. (30:15) It it is a behemoth. Jeffry (30:18) I like that approach as well, and that's that's a good idea. (30:21) I do mention that in the deck, that approach. (30:26) I like that as well. (30:28) I I guess I'm a maybe it's an age thing or whatever. (30:32) I I I guess I was going more for quantity versus quality. Jeffry (30:38) And if you do take that approach, you're right. (30:42) You will get a lot of job postings, but I I did a lot of skimming. (30:45) But I like your approach. (30:47) I think you would agree. (30:48) You're kinda focused more on quality versus quantity. Jeffry (30:52) I think they're both valid. (30:54) And you hit you made a good point. (30:56) It's not perfect. (30:57) The algorithm's not perfect. (30:59) The people that write the job descriptions. Jeffry (31:02) So you're gonna have to have some human interaction and actually look at them as well. (31:06) So I like that approach. (31:08) Both valid. (31:10) With AI, it's gotten better. (31:12) What you're doing For sure. Jeffry (31:13) AI has gotten much, much better. (31:15) And that's a relatively new feature too. (31:18) Mhmm. (31:18) Previously, you could only do job alerts. Eric (31:21) So you you've mentioned the presentation, and I will definitely have links to there's there's a long version and a short version. (31:27) We'll have links to both of those in the show notes. (31:30) Right. (31:30) But you mentioned and and I didn't really realize this as I was as I was going through through my job hunt earlier in the year. (31:38) But you mentioned that there's a lot of fake job posting Right. Eric (31:41) Out there now. Jeffry (31:42) Right. Eric (31:43) Wanna talk a little bit about what you found? Jeffry (31:44) Yeah. (31:45) So this is this is something that I didn't learn until about fifteen or twenty or so years into my career. (31:56) And it's not something that's documented, but it's something that's true. (32:04) And I've talked to enough hiring managers. (32:08) I've talked to enough recruiters. Jeffry (32:10) I actually had this happen for me personally at IBM, so I know it's true. (32:18) And this this I don't know if this is specific to the IT space because I've only had, you know, a career in IT. (32:25) I think it's probably true across all verticals. (32:29) But many, many jobs, by the time they get posted externally, the company already has one or more internal candidates that they're going to hire. (32:42) Or they're gonna hold they're gonna make the pool these five internal candidates. Jeffry (32:48) But for legal reasons, maybe internal HR reasons, they have to still post the job externally Eric (32:58) Mhmm. Jeffry (32:58) On their website and then on LinkedIn. (33:02) So a lot of the jobs you'll see and no one will ever tell you the recruiter or the hiring manager will never tell you that. (33:10) Right. (33:10) But by the time you see it publicly, they already have internal candidates. (33:16) So you're never gonna and, oh, by the way, they may still go through the process of interviewing candidates, partially because if they ever get challenged, well, why did you hire that internal person? Jeffry (33:29) You can say, wait a minute. (33:31) I interviewed five external candidates. (33:33) None of them were a good fit. (33:35) So I was actually surprised, and I I came up with a statistic. (33:41) I think I'm being conservative. Jeffry (33:43) Probably half of the jobs that you see posted externally, they already have an internal candidate in mind. (33:49) And it's kind of a shocking reality. (33:52) You won't see this documented. (33:54) No one will ever tell you. (33:55) It's probably it's probably illegal, but it happens every day. Jeffry (34:00) So just keep that in mind as well that a lot of the jobs that you see, their companies already have internal candidates in mind. (34:10) So it's just something to be aware of as a job job seeker. Eric (34:17) So there's there's a couple of other features that, I have mixed feelings about. (34:22) And the one that comes to mind the quickest just because this is a numbers game Yep. (34:27) And it's not just you applying. (34:29) I mean, I I saw jobs that have been posted for four hours and already had 200 applicants. Jeffry (34:34) Right. Eric (34:35) And and so this feature is what LinkedIn refers to as easy apply. Jeffry (34:39) Yes. Eric (34:39) What are your thoughts? Jeffry (34:41) So a broad broader question is let let let me let me extend it a little. (34:45) So companies typically before there was LinkedIn, would only post their roles on their website. (34:53) And then LinkedIn comes along, and they can post roles on their website. (34:58) However, companies have to pay for LinkedIn job postings. (35:02) So kinda my thought was and you'll and you'll you'll typically, the jobs on LinkedIn are a subset of all the jobs on the company website because they have to pay for that. Jeffry (35:13) So kind of back to my point of is is it a real job posting? (35:17) If they're paying to post it on LinkedIn, Anecdotally, it makes sense. (35:23) Maybe it's more of a real job. (35:25) So you also not only have to look on LinkedIn, but you should look on the company website for jobs as well. (35:33) So you can apply on a company website. Jeffry (35:35) You can apply on LinkedIn, which typically links back to the web page of the company's website. (35:42) Or the third option you mentioned, easy apply. (35:46) I've seen jobs that only have easy apply, and they're not listed on the company's website, which is kinda interesting. (35:54) And that leads me to believe maybe they're more seriously interested in the role. (35:59) But if it's if it's already posted on the website and they have an easy apply, I I would go ahead it is pretty easy to apply with easy apply, but I I think sometimes nobody ever looks at it, honestly. Jeffry (36:14) Mhmm. (36:15) It just goes into a black hole somewhere. (36:17) Theoretically, it goes to, as I understand it, whoever posted the role. (36:24) So I would go ahead and do it because it's pretty easy, but I I don't I wouldn't put put a lot of faith in a role that has an easy apply. Eric (36:33) For sure. Jeffry (36:35) You agree? Eric (36:36) I I do. (36:37) In fact, even the name is just off putting. (36:40) In my head, I saw easy apply, which means easy to ignore. Jeffry (36:44) Yeah. (36:45) Yeah. (36:45) True. (36:46) True. Eric (36:47) But there there are a lot of times where there'll be a posting on LinkedIn. (36:51) And when you hit apply via LinkedIn, it will take you to the company website Jeffry (36:54) Right. Eric (36:54) To put in an actual application. Jeffry (36:56) Right. Eric (36:58) And so one one thing I will encourage folks to do just because we are talking about AI, we are talking about what is inherently just a database via LinkedIn jobs, is when you do apply to the company on the company page to go back to LinkedIn because it'll it will prompt you and it'll say, hey. (37:17) Did you end up applying to this job? (37:18) Always click yes or no because that helps teach those search algorithms. (37:23) It helps teach the underlying AI what you're interested in. (37:26) So if you clicked on this particular company and and clicked on this type of a job, then it knows that, oh, you well, you're serious about these because you actually went out to the website and applied. Jeffry (37:37) You know, that is a really good point, and I don't have that in my presentation. (37:41) I'm gonna go back and add that. (37:42) That is a really good point. Eric (37:44) Now now the first one was free. (37:46) I might I don't know. (37:46) I might have to charge it for the next year. Jeffry (37:49) You know, because your how else would the algorithm know you applied? (37:54) Just clicking on the link doesn't know that. (37:56) That is a really good point. (37:57) So I'm gonna put that in there. (37:59) And it does learn. Jeffry (38:01) It does track. Eric (38:02) It does. (38:03) I mean, the more the more companies I applied to, the fewer notifications I got and the more accurate those were. Jeffry (38:09) Right. Eric (38:10) I mean, I'm I I was an IT guy, IT operations guy for a long time, and so my my skill set is fairly specialized. (38:19) It's not like I'm a Python developer and can go work anywhere that has Python. (38:23) I'm I'm not a developer. (38:25) So having that training really helped narrow things down. (38:29) So the last few weeks of my job hunt, it was companies that had operating systems, companies that built tools that managed or automated operating systems. Eric (38:38) It really helped narrow things down. (38:40) And I got fewer of those false positives of, oh, so you so you wanna go be a paralegal for a, for an attorney's office? (38:47) No. (38:49) No. (38:49) I don't. Jeffry (38:49) Right. (38:51) So we've That's really good point. (38:52) Thank you for that. Eric (38:53) Not a problem. (38:54) We've we've kind of been building this workflow. (38:56) We've we've established that for whatever reason, we're job hunting. (38:59) We've set ourselves some boundaries. (39:01) We've signed in for LinkedIn. Eric (39:02) We've signed up for LinkedIn premium. (39:04) We're working on we're working on kind of training that that algorithm a little bit. (39:10) We set up our notifications. (39:12) Now we found a job that we're really excited about. (39:14) We go to apply. Eric (39:15) It links us to the company website. (39:18) Sometimes it's really quick and easy. (39:19) It's just, you know, standard questions or fill out your resume. (39:24) Don't get me started on companies that force you to put in your job history even though they already ask you for your resume. (39:30) Just don't even get me started. Eric (39:31) But sometimes it's very involved. (39:34) I mean, some of these some of these applications take thirty, forty five, sixty minutes because of all the questions. (39:42) Sometimes I kinda felt like that was a deterrent, and sometimes it's it kinda told me how excited I was about the job. (39:49) Like, I don't know if I wanna answer all 20 of these short form questions. (39:54) Maybe I'm not that excited. Eric (39:56) Or it's like, well, now you've got my attention because you've you're asking me all these questions. (40:01) I wanna fill this out because I want to I wanna get past all the people that saw this list of questions just go, So what about what what what tips and tricks do you have Jeffry (40:13) Yeah. Eric (40:13) Around those those company application pages? Jeffry (40:17) So I'm gonna give you a contrarian view. Eric (40:20) Okay. Jeffry (40:21) Sample size of one. (40:26) One of the things I base this on is having probably gone through a 150 or so interviews since I left IBM and all the applications. (40:40) I personally think nobody looks at what you put in your application online. (40:48) It's only there for legal reasons. (40:52) Are you a veteran? Jeffry (40:54) Are you disabled? (40:55) Are you a citizen? (40:56) Do you need sponsorship? Eric (40:58) Right. Jeffry (41:01) I personal oh, we'll come back to what are your salary expectations? Eric (41:05) I was gonna ask you about that one. Jeffry (41:07) I personally don't answer any of that now because I don't think anybody looks at it. (41:16) Every recruiter or hiring manager, we've never discussed anything I've ever put in those big applications. (41:23) They do look at your resume. (41:25) They do look at your LinkedIn profile, but they'd never go back and look at your application. (41:33) So sometimes they force you to put in some text. Jeffry (41:37) So I say, please see resume. Eric (41:40) Oh, yeah. (41:42) I like that. Jeffry (41:43) I think it's a waste of time, personally. (41:46) I don't think anybody looks at it. (41:48) And some of them are crazily involved and are ridiculous. (41:52) So I just if I can leave it blank, I leave it blank. (41:56) If I have to put something in, I'd say, please see my resume. Jeffry (42:01) Fortunately, a lot of companies now let you import. (42:05) This is why your LinkedIn profile needs to be current and up to date. (42:09) You can import your LinkedIn profile, and you don't have to give them your job history. (42:15) As a matter of fact, any big company that doesn't do that, I have concerns of their IT HR rules because come on, guys and girls. (42:25) Why am I reentering the same stuff into my resume and my LinkedIn profile? Jeffry (42:30) Because it's very easy to import it. (42:32) You'd be shocked. (42:33) Some big companies don't do that. (42:34) Most big companies now do that. (42:36) So, yeah, I don't spend any time on that. Jeffry (42:42) The other thing with salary expectations, that's a whole another discussion. Eric (42:46) I hate that question. Jeffry (42:47) I usually put one or two. (42:49) I don't give them a number because I personally think it's too early in the process. (42:55) You haven't even talked to a recruiter. (42:56) You haven't talked to a hiring manager. (42:58) Like you said, you haven't really found out what is the job day to day. Jeffry (43:02) So to me, it's too early. (43:05) I'll leave it blank or put a one or a zero. (43:08) If they'll take text, I say yes. (43:11) I expect a salary. (43:12) No. Jeffry (43:12) I just say yes. Eric (43:14) I've done that before. Jeffry (43:16) That's my opinion. (43:17) Sample size of one. (43:19) I just didn't wanna spend a lot of time on that. (43:24) Let me mention one thing. (43:26) Sure. Jeffry (43:27) Because we might we we we may or may not get to this. (43:31) So once you do all that stuff and you found a job that you've applied, you're excited, you've only done half the work. (43:38) Mhmm. (43:39) The next thing you wanna do is ultimately get to either the recruiter or the hiring manager. (43:46) And that's where you can leverage LinkedIn to hopefully leverage your network, search, and actually try to find the recruiter or the hiring manager. Jeffry (43:59) Because all that other stuff is great, but until you get to a recruiter or or hiring manager, it's kinda moot. (44:05) So I talk a lot about we can spend some more time on that, but you wanna leverage LinkedIn to try and track down who the actual hiring manager is well. (44:14) So Eric (44:17) after we've hit submit, what what's going on on the company side? (44:21) Because for the most part, as an as an applicant, it looks like it just goes into a black hole, and maybe that pops back out with some sort of output that isn't just a straight up rejection letter. (44:33) So what's going on on the other side of things? Jeffry (44:35) Well, I'm no expert. (44:38) I think, typically, these days, companies are using what's called an ATS, applicant tracking system. (44:45) And I used to tell people not to tailor your resume for a role, but now I've changed because it's so easy to do it with AI. (44:56) Mhmm. (44:56) Previously, people were retyping, recreating their resume for each role, and I said it's not worth the effort. Jeffry (45:03) Now it's easier. (45:04) So I'd say, yeah. (45:06) So it's worthwhile before you hit the submit to potentially try to use AI to tailor your resume. (45:14) I would not rewrite it. (45:16) But, typically, it goes into an ATS applicant tracking system that tries to match you for the role. Jeffry (45:24) And then, hopefully, if you pass through the ATS, a recruiter will will reach out to you. (45:29) The other thing, though, is you get rejected a lot because of the ATS as well. (45:36) That's part of the 95 to 97% rejection. (45:40) Right. (45:42) But one thing you do wanna do is read the job description in excruciating detail either on LinkedIn and the web page for keywords. Jeffry (45:53) And then you wanna try to insert those keywords in your resume. (45:57) So when the ATS sees it, hopefully, it'll raise your profile in terms of applicants they wanna talk to. Eric (46:05) Right. (46:06) Yeah. (46:06) I mean, especially at this stage in my career, I know what my worth is. (46:09) I know what I can bring to a company. (46:11) So it's really just kinda gaming the system, unfortunately, to get in front of a human Jeffry (46:16) Right. Eric (46:17) In in front of human eyeballs. (46:18) So if you can survive that first round with the ATS, I found that usually I do fairly well in the interview process. Jeffry (46:24) Right. Eric (46:26) But it's it's getting in front of an actual person that that's kind of the trick. (46:31) And so this is kinda where your your methodology comes in. (46:34) You wanna talk kinda talk through what that process Jeffry (46:36) looks like? (46:37) I mentioned it a little before. (46:38) So I think the days of just applying for a job and getting a response are are long gone. (46:50) Not not gonna happen. (46:51) I think you do need I think you do need to and and I think you're being naive if you think you're gonna get a response. Jeffry (46:59) So you do have to kinda be selective for the roles that you think you're and by the way, you've gotta do your own self introspection. (47:08) You've gotta do your own due diligence. (47:11) You're wasting everybody's time if if you're okay. (47:15) I'll use myself as an example. (47:17) If I'm if if I'm applying for chief sales officer or CTO, it's a waste of their time and my time. Jeffry (47:25) I'm not a fit for that role. (47:27) You've gotta do some reasonable self introspection. (47:31) But for the roles you think that are a good fit, you can leverage LinkedIn to track down the recruiter or the hiring manager, and I talk a lot about that. (47:42) You could actually search on LinkedIn in the employees for recruiters. (47:49) What I suggest is search on the title of the role as well, because not only might you find the the recruiter if you use recruiter, you might find the hiring manager of those roles. Jeffry (48:04) The other thing because they might have, you know, manager of so and so, or they might have it in their role. (48:09) The other thing that I've done is look for people that have the same title and reach out to them and say, look, we haven't met. (48:20) You don't know me, but I've applied for this role. (48:23) I go ahead and ask, would you mind looking up who the hiring manager is and give me their email? (48:30) A lot of people say, well, you're crazy, Jeffrey. Jeffry (48:32) People aren't gonna do that if they don't know you. (48:34) You'd be shocked back to the three to 5% response. (48:39) That's about what you'll get. (48:41) But I'm I'm still pleasantly surprised people that I've never met don't know. (48:46) Sure. Jeffry (48:46) It's so and so. (48:48) I I just hit a pot of gold because then I reach out to that hiring manager. (48:53) By the way, I can bypass the recruiter then. (48:56) Sometimes you don't wanna do that because companies get upset. (49:01) But if you can do that and find the name and the email of the hiring manager, you send them an email that day or an in mail through LinkedIn. Jeffry (49:08) The other thing, and you mentioned to this, your personal network. (49:12) I'm just gonna pick a company. (49:14) Let's say you're interested in Cisco. (49:17) Chances are you and I have been around. (49:19) We probably have somebody we know that works at Cisco. Jeffry (49:24) So personal contact, you wanna reach out to them. (49:26) Hey. (49:27) Can you look up, the hiring manager? (49:31) So there's a lot of that narrowing down to find the recruiter and the hiring manager you can do in LinkedIn. (49:42) So that's part a large part of my methodology is suggesting ways to do that to get to because ultimately, you wanna get to either the recruiter or the hiring manager. Jeffry (49:54) One point on that is sometimes it may be too aggressive for people if you're asking for the hiring manager. (50:00) That's okay. (50:01) Ask for the recruiter. (50:03) Nobody should have an issue with giving you the name and email of the recruiter for the role. (50:08) Because oftentimes, the recruiters may get a 100 applicants for that role. Jeffry (50:12) And exactly what you said, Eric, you wanna cut through the noise, you wanna cut through the chatter, you wanna you wanna hopefully have the recruiter wanna reach out to you. (50:23) So that I spent a lot of time on that, and that's a large part of my methodology. Eric (50:28) So as as we kinda close today's episode, I wanted to ask that you you've made this content freely available. (50:38) And, I mean, there's dozens of slides, and you cited research, and you've got links to you've got links to to other resources. (50:46) You even cite a few people that specialize in areas that you don't, like like LinkedIn profile optimization. (50:53) I mean, I when I first read through it, I was like, this is a ton of information. (50:57) And and second of all, where was this when I was job hunting? Eric (51:00) But but, you know, this is this is kind of a way of giving back. (51:04) What what what was it that just really inspired you to to give this away for free? Jeffry (51:09) Yeah. (51:10) So great point. (51:12) So many people have helped me in my career. (51:17) Like I said, it's not the first time I've been laid off. (51:21) Many people, as I mentioned, would provide the name and email of the the hiring manager. Jeffry (51:29) I think it's important to and I don't wanna say I'm too serious here. (51:34) I mean, we we live in a world where there let's just say a lot of negativity. (51:41) So I've always felt it's important since other people have helped me to kinda pay it forward and to help others. (51:50) This happened to be an area where I spent a lot of time on LinkedIn. (51:56) I also didn't really see a lot of the things I talk about documented very well. Jeffry (52:00) As I mentioned, there are a lot of great thought leaders. (52:03) I I list four. (52:05) None of them really focus so much on just getting a job. (52:09) So I kinda saw there was a need out there and a niche not being filled. (52:13) And it's important to give back. Jeffry (52:16) So I I spent the time, and I figured if I'm gonna spend the time to do it, why not make it why not make it freely available? (52:24) So Eric will provide a link. (52:27) I got a lot of feedback. (52:28) And as you mentioned, there's a very long detailed one, and then there's a shorter one. (52:33) So take your pick, and, I'll make the offer. Jeffry (52:37) If anybody looks at it, has a question, reach out to me on LinkedIn, or has feedback. (52:44) Like, Eric has given me some great feedback. (52:46) I'm gonna go back now and update it because that's the other thing I do. (52:50) LinkedIn is great. (52:52) It's powerful. Jeffry (52:52) It's a behemoth. (52:54) It is constantly changing. (52:56) Something we talked about today, you could look at it tomorrow and it might be different. (53:00) So the other thing I think the value I bring is I try to keep it current. (53:06) I'm always updating it. Jeffry (53:07) I have a new version about every two to three months because there's so many new features. (53:12) AI is changing, new features and things change, screens change, and all that. (53:16) So happy to help people. (53:19) Thank you, Eric, for the time. (53:21) I I believe you agree with everything I just said. Jeffry (53:24) So Eric (53:24) I do. (53:25) Very much so. Jeffry (53:25) Thank Eric (53:26) you. (53:26) As I I agree it's important to give back. (53:30) You know, I'm I'd I'm a product marketer and a and a teacher, and that that that pays my family's bills. (53:36) But I I see the show as kind of an an attempt to to give back a little bit. (53:40) Right. Eric (53:41) And I was given a chance to to interact with amazing people in our industry. (53:46) And bringing them together in into a into a regularly occurring event, you know, in the form of a podcast is just kind of my my little way of of giving back to the community. (53:58) So I always appreciate finding people of of a like mind. (54:03) So to be to be completely transparent, it took me months to be able to get around to this topic. (54:10) I I was pretty caught off guard by by being laid off earlier in the year. Jeffry (54:16) Right. Eric (54:17) And then for for about ninety six days, the only work I could find was working overnight at a gas station. (54:23) So it it took me a while to be able to sit down and go, you know what? (54:27) I I lived that experience, and we need to talk about it. Jeffry (54:29) Right. Eric (54:30) So if if you were and you kinda reached out to me not too long after I was laid off, and and you had some great advice and some encouragement. (54:37) So I I just wanna open it up for a moment that if you've got somebody in my audience who's just been laid off and they are just overwhelmed by decisions and directions and and uncertainty, what would you say to those people right now? Jeffry (54:54) Yeah. (54:54) Thank thank you for that. (54:55) So I would say, I know how you feel. (54:59) I'm not I'm not someone that says, well, I think I know how you feel. (55:02) I know how you feel. Jeffry (55:04) I've been laid off more than once. (55:07) I've actually had someone call me at 10:00 in the morning, say, today is your last day. (55:12) Your your your your your email and everything won't work after five. (55:17) Send your laptop. (55:18) So I I've been there. Jeffry (55:20) I know how it feels. (55:22) Until we're all bots by the way, Eric, I'm assuming you're not a bot. (55:26) You're a live human being, by the way. Eric (55:28) No. (55:28) I was this morning when I checked. Jeffry (55:31) We're all human beings. (55:33) We're it's never a pleasant experience. (55:36) Like I said, I was laid off after twenty six years at IBM. (55:39) That was not a pleasant experience for me. (55:42) I try to tell people it's not you. Jeffry (55:49) It's not whether you did a good job or a bad job. (55:51) Typically, it's not. (55:53) It's just the vagaries of the industry. (55:56) So I try to tell people not to take it personally. (55:59) It's hard because we're human. Jeffry (56:02) The other thing I I tell people, it's okay to have a pity party for yourself, but set a time limit. (56:11) Is it gonna be a week? (56:13) Is it gonna be a month? (56:14) Is it gonna be six months? (56:17) Quite frankly, when I got laid off at IBM, it took me about six months to get out of my funk. Jeffry (56:23) So having a pity party is fine. (56:25) You're human. (56:27) But set a time limit and then then move on. (56:29) So don't take it personally. (56:32) It's sorta like when you're someone in your family dies and you go through that process. Jeffry (56:40) You've got eventually get out of it. (56:42) A mourning process. (56:44) I I kinda like that analogy because you can't, you know, you can't mourn forever. (56:49) You gotta move on with your life. (56:51) The other thing I tell people is don't you know, this is this may sound a little cynical, but don't give the company the satisfaction of all the negative energy you gotta put in because you were laid off. Jeffry (57:04) Just accept it, have your pity party, and then move on. (57:11) Because, again, quite frankly, in the grand scheme of things, the world is not resolving around whether you have a job or not. (57:19) You've just gotta take responsibility for yourself and then then move on. (57:23) And use use my methodology. (57:25) I think you'll find it useful. Eric (57:27) Yeah. (57:27) For sure. (57:28) Help? (57:29) Yeah. (57:29) I mean, in in this notebook, there was notes about job interviews. Eric (57:35) There was journal entries. (57:37) Some of them angry. (57:38) Some of them sad because, I mean, I spent five and a half years with a company that I thought I could potentially retire from. (57:45) Yep. (57:46) And it may not may not have been the death of a relative, but it was it was the death of who I was, where I was at. Eric (57:54) It was the death of this this idea of stability Jeffry (57:58) Right. Eric (57:59) Steady income, a job that was going to be there. (58:02) So pity party kinda gets a negative connotation to it, but I definitely think that that that is natural and is healthy to have a morning process. (58:13) But like you said, at some point, you've gotta pick yourself up, dust yourself off Right. (58:16) And start applying to jobs. (58:18) It's not fun. Eric (58:20) It's grueling. (58:22) But I think with what we've covered today and and if definitely check the show notes because Jeffrey has some amazing resources, some Yeah. (58:30) Links, some strategies. (58:31) It's amazing, amazing work. Jeffry (58:33) Thank you. (58:33) I'll make this offer. (58:35) If you think there's any value in anything I've said, and we can debate that, that's okay. (58:41) I do kinda have a lot of contrarian opinions. (58:45) If you think there's any value, I'm happy to, you know, do a one on one. Jeffry (58:51) You know, happy to help. (58:55) If you wanna do that, just reach out to me on LinkedIn. (58:58) I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn, and I'm happy to try to try to talk about, you know, things in more detail or or anything. (59:07) So happy to do that. (59:09) I'll make that offer. Eric (59:10) As someone who's taken Jeffrey up on that offer, I can I can personally vouch that Jeffry (59:14) Thank you? Eric (59:14) He's true to his word there. (59:16) So Thank you. (59:17) And if you'd if you'd like some additional nerd support, there are links in the show notes for our Discord and our matrix room. (59:25) So definitely click on those links, join a growing community of sys admins, nerds, technologists, and and career IT folks as as we're building out those communities. (59:35) So definitely plenty of space to to to grow, to build your network. Eric (59:41) And if you haven't already, feel free to add Jeffrey or and or myself on LinkedIn. Jeffry (59:46) Good point. Eric (59:46) Pretty active there. (59:48) Again, our profiles will be linked in the show notes. (59:51) So, Jeffrey, I really thank you for for joining me this this week. (59:55) Great conversation. (59:56) It Jeffry (59:56) was Thank you. Eric (59:57) It was great to to kinda debate a couple of ideas there. (1:00:00) And and but the the show goes on. (1:00:04) If you join me here in about two weeks, we'll be going live. (1:00:07) I'll have Brody Robertson, a a fellow YouTuber. (1:00:11) He's got some some really insightful videos as well as some really fun videos. Eric (1:00:15) We're going to be talking about the migration from the x 11 protocol over to Wayland. (1:00:19) So we're gonna veer away from our from our IT deep IT technology type conversations, and we're we're gonna jump on the Linux desktop for for an episode. (1:00:30) We're gonna talk about what x 11 is, where it's going, and and its replacement, Waylon. (1:00:35) So join me and Brody Robertson right here on this channel in two weeks for our next episode. (1:00:41) So I'm really looking forward to that. Eric (1:00:43) Make sure you make sure you hit that like button. (1:00:45) It helps grease those algorithms. (1:00:47) I know it's dumb, but just click the button. (1:00:49) In the time that it's told me it's taken me to tell you to do so, you could have done it already, so just click the freaking button. (1:00:56) Make sure you subscribe. Eric (1:00:58) I'm trying to release some extra content as well, maybe some guides, some walk throughs, as well as, the regular, conversation every couple of weeks. (1:01:06) So on behalf of my guest, Jeffrey Ullman today, I've been your host, Eric, the IT guy Hendrix, and this has been the IT guy show. (1:01:12) And I will see you again in two weeks. (1:01:14) Until then, take care, everybody. Jeffry (1:01:16) Thank you, Eric. (1:01:17) Bye.