Hello, Voices of the Bench community. John Isherwood from Ivaclar here, inviting you to join us this February at LMT Lab Day in Chicago. Over the three-day show, we're excited to be offering 16 different lecture programs for you to choose from. Simply log on to labday.com/ivaclar, that's labday.com/ivaclar, to check out our lineup and register for these amazing courses. Looking forward to seeing you in the Windy City this February. You know, Barb, when it comes to lab day, I love hanging out with you and our podcast friends in the Ivor Klar Ballroom. But I was thinking, I really don't get down to the exhibition halls anymore, do you?
You know what, Elvis? Not as much as I used to.
Yeah, sometimes I try to sneak down there during the breakdown just to say hi to the few vendor friends that I have. But that's about it.
Isn't that nice of you? Maybe I should make it down there this year. At the very least, I can grab some cool swag.
I don't know. Doesn't it feel like giveaways have dropped in quality over the years?
Maybe a little. Although, I did get a legit orange Hydro Flask from Follow Me last year. You know, the Hyperdent guys? Definitely not a cheapo.
That's right. They raffle those off for their milling roadmap activity. It's kind of like a mini scavenger hunt.
Yes, so full disclosure, I didn't actually participate, but I've got friends in low places.
Of course you do, Barb.
Normally you have to collect stamps from a few of their partner booths to qualify, but honestly, they're probably booths that you're visiting anyways, especially if you're shopping for milling equipment.
Yeah, but you might as well get some cool stuff for doing something that you're already planning on doing, right?
Exactly. This year, their featured partners are Axis, Imagine, DOF, and Roland. So you got to stop there, plus another few.
I've actually heard that they're switching up the grand prize.
Oh yeah.
They used to do cash, which is everybody's favorite. But this year they found a super cool Honda electric scooter and slapped their logo on the side of it. And it folds up like a ******* suitcase. It's like Iron Man. It's awesome. Jordan showed me pictures of it while we're in Vegas.
What? Of course you got the inside view. All right, that just might be the ultimate door prize.
Right? We're already walking the floor, collecting swag. This just happens to have wheels and can carry around a human adult.
Oh my God, you've convinced me I'm going to participate this year properly.
You should as long as we're not recording, but it's easy, and it actually sounds fun. The HyperDent booth is E27 in the East Hall. Grab your game board there first, and it's got a map to navigate to all their partner booths, and then you just collect it.
Nice, guys. Sounds like a plan. I'm in.
Oh my God, what have I done? I hope it comes with a helmet for your sake.
Yeah, thanks.
Welcome to Voices from the Bench, a dental laboratory podcast. Send us an e-mail at info@voicesfromthebench.com and follow us on Facebook and Instagram. Greetings and welcome to Episode 409 of Voices from the Bench. My name is...
My name's Barbara.
What's happening, Barb? We are back from Vegas. We have survived.
Yeah.
How you doing?
We have survived. I mean, you know, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, but it was quite the meeting. Unbelievable. Awesomeness.
Yeah, you were a little low-key this year. Seems like every night, as soon as we wrapped up, Barb was gone. And everyone's like, where's Barb? Where's Barb? And I'm like, I'm not her babysitter. I have no idea.
Yeah, it was good. And I... behaved and spent a fair amount of time not socializing this year, but I came back in a better state.
Yes, I totally understand. Totally understand. But we had a great time. A lot of really good speakers. That panel discussion on the last day had some powerhouse people in it, and it was really good. I mean, really good. Of course, it was really great to see everybody, as we always like to start the year off at Visions and just say, hey, and find out how everyone's doing. And you spend a lot of time saying, see you in Chicago? You're going to be in Chicago? See you in Chicago? Very excited for all that. Yeah. I was able to enjoy a little bit nicer weather as we come back to Indiana and we are below 0 today.
Oh, are you guys getting hammered this weekend?
That is what they keep saying. Yeah. So went to the grocery store and it was empty of stuff to buy.
Kind of how it happens in Florida when there's hurricanes that come. So I understand.
I could go three months without eating a loaf of bread, but apparently now I need to eat three. So we'll see.
That's funny.
So this week, we welcome back to the podcast, John Wilson, who happened to start his own podcast, but we're not going to fault him for that. In fact, we like his story and his format. See, John owns Sunrise Dental Lab in California and for many years has had failures and successes with his career and his lab. And on his podcast, Margins and Meaning, John takes everyone on his journey and shares the lessons he's learned along the way. But on this podcast, John updates us on what he's been up to, which is cool, which is setting up his lab to align with the clients that he actually wants to work with, why he started the podcast, and some of the wisdom he hopes to share to the industry. So join us as we chat with John Wilson.
Hey, Voices from the Bench listeners, Barbara here. Are you ready to take your digital dentistry skills to the next level? Then you do not want to miss Exocad Insights 2026. It's happening April 30th through May 1st on the stunning island of Mallorca, Spain. We're talking two full days of powerhouse keynotes, hands-on workshops, live software demos, and top tier industry showcases all in one incredible location. And yes, Elvis and I will be there too, bringing you exclusive on-site interviews that you won't hear anywhere else. Now here's something extra special this year. The Women in Dentistry Lunch. It's a celebration of the women who lift this profession higher every single day. You'll hear from an inspiring panel about career growth, bias, well-being, and the real stories behind their journeys. It's one of those rare events that remind you why your work matters and how powerful we are when we support one another. And of course, I look forward to the legendary EXO Glam Night. You can network, listen to music, and have unforgettable fun under the stars. Tickets are going fast, so head to exocad.com forward slash insights dash 2026 and grab yours today. And just for our listeners, Voices from the Bench listeners, use the code VFTBPALMA15 for 15% off. We will see you in Mallorca.
Voices from the Bench, The Interview. Thought this would be a good conversation.
No, I told you up front. This time is going to be different. Last time I was a motor mouth.
So he's going to ask us the questions.
Motor on, sir. It's fine. It's all good.
Motor in.
So this is exciting. Barb and I welcome back to the podcast who is now a fellow podcaster.
Nice.
John Wilson, Sunrise Dental Lab. How are you, sir?
Wow. Well, thank you for that interview. You guys, that introduction is, it means mean more to me because coming back means that I wasn't a complete failure the first time I was on this show.
Well, I looked it up. It was October of 21. So it took you a while to get back?
Well, yeah, life kind of gets in the way sometimes, but you know, the passion doesn't. And yeah, before we started recording here, we just talked a little bit and I wanted to be on the air. My accolades to both of you. guys have really done something that You know, a lot of people set out and try to do, but your longevity in this forum is commendable. 400 some odd episodes later, you guys are still fresh and relevant, and I'm proud to call you my friends.
Aw, thank you. Some people call it crazy. It's you gotta have an obsessiveness with it. You know, I kind of even equate it to people that are really good in the lab. You almost have to be obsessed. You know what I mean?
No, you are. Not almost. You are.
Okay. I've crossed that threshold.
So I like to use the word dedicated. Dedicated to me seems a little bit more fitting because there's a reason for it. Nobody says you have to do this. There's a reason why you're doing this. And those are the things in life that, you know, really mark individuals. I think so often we are gifted with this time on this planet and we take it for granted. So people that really give of themselves and really make something that is worth their time to me is super, super important. And I think not enough people really recognize how short of a... life we actually have and living for tomorrow is not what we should be doing. We should be living in the day and really recognizing that.
And you got to have fun while you're doing it. That's the key, in my opinion.
So true.
Barb and I, we wouldn't do this if it wasn't fun.
That's always true. And I think that's a, you know, life is about, you know, enjoyment, right? But, you know, having purpose with it all. that kind of segues in. I was always curious, how did you two meet? How did you guys get together? You guys work so well with one another. You play off each other so well. I always wonder how that connection actually happened.
You want to go, Elvis?
Yeah. I mean, this is, basically, Barb was always involved with the industry, very much on Cal Lab, on the NADL board. And when I came into the industry, at the time, the owner of the lab I worked with was very much supportive of me getting involved outside of just our lab. So he took me to Cal Lab, he took me to Chicago, he took me to Visions, and I saw Barb up on stage and doing various panel discussions and things like that. And then I joined the NADL board, and we were on it together briefly, because I think by then you were on the executive, so you only had a couple years left. And just hanging out at those meetings, becoming friendly, why we work hard at the NADL meetings, we always like to play hard. So just having a good time. And what was it, Barb? Chicago.
Oh, it was a very cool night in Chicago. Yep, this is a great story.
Yeah, we We were getting pizza? There was a few of us out. And I at the time was getting more into sales at my lab and I started driving to offices. I got out of the lab, I guess really is what it was about. And I started listening to dentist podcasts. And honestly, I just thought to myself, how come we don't have a podcast? How come the dental lab doesn't have one? And there's one thing I knew I didn't want to do is I didn't want to do a podcast alone. And I'm going to talk to you about this because that's what you do and that's crazy. But I needed a partner. I needed someone to bounce off of. I was still new to the industry, so I needed someone that was well-versed in the industry. I needed someone that was more of a technician, the ceramist, and Barb, her personality and everything. everything. Cold night in Chicago, eating pizza, and I said, Barb, I got this crazy idea. How would you like to be on a podcast? And of course, her famous answer was, what's a podcast? And that was serious. Yeah. she had no idea. So kind of explained it to her. And then what? Is that when we walked back?
And then we ran home with the, yeah.
And you took your shoes off. You were barefoot. Oh my goodness. Because you were in heels and we're both runners. So we run back. Chicago at 9 o'clock at night is probably 4 degrees. From there, we met with Renata at the show and we said, hey, we're going to do this. Do you want to be our first guest? And she said, yes. And she's been our guest every year, every year anniversary, her and somebody else. And it just, we started reaching out to friends and then eventually we were like, we need to talk to people that aren't friends. And.
We sucked a little bit, but we started with a script and some questions and then kind of limped our way through it and got better and better and better as the years went on. And just, Elvis and I are pretty tight. We get along really well. We never argue. We do kind of bounce off each other and we both have different ways of looking at questions and the way we're processing the interviews. It goes one way and then the other way. And it was just really natural for us. So thank you. Thank you for asking that question. And by the way, I did say yes. I said, what's a podcast? And then I said, hell.
Yeah, I'll do it. I think it's great. And now I have a little more context because, you know, getting involved in my own journey with this, and we'll talk about that in a bit. But what really came into play for me was I wasn't a big podcaster. I didn't listen too much. There was a few things, you know, I'm really passionate about our industry. And, you know, you would put up these blurbs for these people. people that I really respected and and it was really fun to see and listen and hear and put words to the pictures that you'd see on the internet and and it really gave life to another avenue of our industry that we weren't able to share you know it's always fun to go to the shows and and go to continuing education and and spending time with with people that are in this trade but There's such a bigger part of our life in this trade that we don't get to share. And especially, the small guys sitting in their basement, thinking they're alone in this and then hearing all of the same struggles. To me, it's been awesome to see people really connect with that aspect.
Yeah. Because it was hard when we started. We knew people on the NADL board and those are big names. They own big labs. And I really wanted to reach the, hey, I'm working by myself. Hey, I'm, you know, out of my house or I'm in a dental office. And, you know, reaching those stories is just as cool as talking to Jim Clydewell, in my opinion.
I think it's cooler because it's the bigger segment of our trade. And while, you know, we've seen a huge shift of where our industry is headed and good, bad, or ugly, that the real truth of the matter is, the people in the trenches that have made this something to really be proud of. There's a bit of craziness in us all to stay in something that has the type of pressure and just struggles that we all face. And sometimes when you're alone, sitting in your little chair and your little kingdom that you've created, you start to think that maybe You're alone. So hearing these stories, we can commiserate with one another. It's been really a good path for me to realize that, you know, I'm not so special. I'm pretty similar to a lot of people out there. And I think that's just a good thing to really connect with.
Our goal is to make people feel not special. That's what we. So John, I mean, it's been since 21 since you've been on. Give us an update. What's been going on with Sunshine?
Sunrise.
What have you been up to? Sunrise. Oh my God, I'm sorry.
Don't be, don't be sorry.
Sunrise Dental Laboratories. What have you been up to?
Be quite frank, I've been at it, making teeth and evolving with our industry and trying to run a team as best I possibly can, you know, after doing it as long as I have. I fight that, what I call yesterday's thinking, where, we're constantly looking at what's worked in the past and think, well, It should work today. And that's a pretty good way to have consistency. But you have to be flexible. You have to be able to adapt. And our trade is one of those that had, for the longest time, you could be very yesterday thinking and be successful. Today with digital and how we exploit it, how we can be more efficient, those are the things that I think set apart smaller laboratories today. It's a very difficult business. We've had the same struggles for years. So, you know, having a better mindset has been my biggest relevance. And over the time in the last four or five years since we've talked, you know, we've solidified what I call that, you know, team approach to dentistry. I've really pushed for that. I'm only involved with with clients today that I align with. I'm in a very unique position. I chose to keep the laboratory a little more manageable You know, I got to a point in time where it was just very difficult to find any balance. I couldn't have the passion every day that I wanted because, you know, you had to kiss some frogs and fill the case pans and make sure that your staff was managed. And all of those struggles in life, after getting to a point, I recognized I could still have happiness in this trade if I was to control the teams that I was affiliated with. So doing this over those years, I've really held tight to that. And while some people may look at me as a little bit of a prima donna when it comes to who we allow into the laboratory, There's a reason why my staff have been with me as long as they have, because I treat them with respect and I don't ask more than I would do for myself. So it's been a good fit for us. I'm lucky to have the clients that partner with us in the way that they do. but I'm not actively looking to grow any more than we're at. I still love what I do. And the day I wake up and decide that I don't want to do this anymore, well, hey, I've had a pretty good run in this business and I'm lucky to be able to say that I could walk away tomorrow. So.
Wow.
When you say align yourself with, like, what is that like? Did you have to lose some clients along the way? Or if I dare say, fire them because you weren't aligned and then, you know, just kind of get to a point where you were at your sweet spot.
Some of my deepest, closest friends in this industry call them Dear John letters because I've given many of them over my career to clients. I'm one of those guys that, You know, if I'm going to give everything, if I'm going to look harder, if I'm going to look past what that script says, if I'm going to be a true partner to you, have to give me everything that I need. And when that doesn't align with your beliefs, if money is going to be the number one thing that you're doing for your patients and extracting from them, I'm not going to be a good fit with you. If you know that I'm going to be by your side, stand beside you, know, be a true team leader, be married to the case is just like you are, own my responsibility and my team's responsibility, and that really resonates with you. Well, we're going to be pretty good friends, but when you want to use me in a manner that is not something I connect with, well... we're just not going to be long-term partners. And I've held strong with that. Over the years, the biggest hurdle with all small laboratories is just cash flow. So as soon as I made choices, hard choices, and limited the type of clients that I wanted to connect with, well, life got easier. It got tough for a while as I sorted through all the headaches, but standing tall, standing on policy, being accountable for your actions, not just talking and saying that you can do something, actually delivering, all of these things to me were things that my parents taught me coming up, but somehow along the way, building a business and and trying to grow and trying to scale all of these things, it's harder to not make compromises. I got to a point where I decided I'm not going to compromise on myself. My integrity is too important to me. I want to be able to do the things that I know that I can do in the best manner, lead a team with that same thought, and hopefully, you know, align with teams that really love that.
Great answer.
How much energy did you put into these clients? to get them to be a partner with you. Did you try or did you be like, oh, I just know you're not gonna work and bye.
So that's a great question. And you know, I think that the more truthful answer would be it's evolved. You know, when I was in the transitional phase where I was. believing in greatness believing in passion believing that there are our potential teams out there that would give what I want to Receive and those are the things that it took a while to really believe that it was possible And there's a few mentors in my life that really brought that to the forefront of my my day-to-day But yes, I was involved in a bunch of GPR programs over the years where you know people would go and they would learn a specific skill And I would be involved in those programs because it was like my farm team. If I started them early on this and started training them with the things that we would need as they moved out into the real world and they got their own practices starting, or they went into another associate position, well, my name was on the tip of their tongue when they got to that place. And that was a good way for me to, you know, not just share wisdom, but really cultivate relationships. I say that word a lot, but I live my life with that mantra. I think that there's a lot of ways to make money in this life. But you know what? The things I'm most proud of are the relationships that I've formed. and the things that I nurture on a day-to-day basis.
Yeah. And it's important to remember that when you say relationship between lab and doctor, that doesn't mean going out to dinner with the doctor or going to play golf. It's more than that. It's not just relationship in the traditional sense of relationship. It's... supportive, I guess.
I've used this term before. I look at the client as the quarterback, and I want to be that wide receiver that is in the huddle with them, and they're calling the play. And I have the power that I can suggest that maybe we can run this play in a slightly different manner. And instead of just being the guy that just catches the ball, I might be able to dictate how that route might go a little bit different. And those types of relationships to me are something that just don't happen. You have to create that. You have to be able to share why we can do something different and generate the trust. Trust is something that is, I'm not instantly given in this life anymore. And some people that have a big heart, they give it freely. I can tell you in the lab world, that's not generally the case. You have to prove yourself. and You know the ones that have stood by my side for you know I have clients that go back 30 plus years and to me that is an amazing testament to you know having Personalities align, you know you've started and stated this earlier how you and barb are such a good fit for one one another You know you play off each other. Well, well, it's the same thing in business But you know, they have to have that trust you have to be able to You know, say what you say, but do what you do and make it work. And that's not always easy.
I would think you guys would, with that trust level that you're talking about, get into new things and try things that you've never done, but be able to do it together to make it work. It's like trial and error. Let's try this new implant or this new procedure. And then as you evolve, you start doing all kinds of crazy fun stuff together that you do some success successfully, but some's just a learning experience. Like, what's that like? I'm sure you've got a fair amount of that.
Yeah, I'm very fortunate. And again, I think it goes back to the passion, and not just being stuck on yesterday's thinking. So for me, technology and the advancement, how we're collecting our data today, well, that's still reliant upon good fundamentals of what we've learned 30 years ago. We're just collecting it in a different manner. We're utilizing technology today in a more efficient manner, but essentially we're making teeth in a very similar fashion. They still have to last. They still have to function. The material science behind it still has to be honored. All of these things don't change. The best part is when you have a trusted client that calls you up and says, Hey, I need to get a new this. And then I become the best outside sales rep for whatever company out there without ever getting paid for it, but it's because I believe in passing on hard-earned life, learned wisdom. And you only get that by putting the reps. So having that expert status on anything, has risk involved. How bad can it be when I tell this guy to buy a $40,000 photogrammetry scanner and he sucks at acquiring the data? The technology is only going to be as good as the implementation of utilizing it correctly. And sometimes you have to pick and choose when you want to make those investments. But yes, I have sound teams that you know, lean on me and we do things, fun things together and try new stuff and bring back old world, you know, methods to do stuff. You know, we've been getting into subperiostinals and doing some really fun stuff that is outside the box in a digital form. And that's been really, really fun for us.
Oh, I bet.
It also keeps you interested in your job, and doing what you want to do, the more creative and the fun. There's only so many single units you can do before you go crazy.
You're absolutely right, guys. The truth of the matter is for me, those mind-numbing moments, you know, those pay the bills. And you got to put the passion into even the small cases. And that's been the hardest thing to direct staff over the years because, you know, Everybody wants to do these big, beautiful, amazing cases. And the truth is, it's the little cases that allow us to have that freedom to be able to be that much more relevant. I'm not selling cheap single unit crowns. And the people that send me these units are because I will only do their big work if they send me the little work. So it's a relationship. Again, we have to work together on it, but yes, it's way nicer to get up in the morning and start designing something that is more than just a second molar. Oh yeah.
So expand on that real quick. I mean, you will only do the large cases if they send you the single units. How do you even... I mean, is that just a trust or do you demand it?
So it's all trust. So, when somebody comes on and today, it's very rare for me just to arbitrarily pick up a new client. we have a wait list of guys that I could call at any moment to have work in there. And that's a wait list. It's a very, very, great position to be in. And that's where that prima madonna status comes from. And I hate it. But the truth is, I protect my staff. I protect what I can do well. I can protect my sanity by saying no. And I couldn't always do that in my career. So getting to this point, I'm not going to squander that gift that I've been given at this point. So, yes, so when we bring things on, doing mail order, having clients in 32 of the 50 states, and my little organization, it's all based upon, those relationships. And, they recognize that if I'm going to give everything on the big case, can you imagine how much nicer and easier I could make their life on the little cases? So you may pay a little bit more on that, but overall, the value is there. And, you know, the great thing is when Mrs. Smith needs another crown in the mouth, they remember that I have all that data and I can see what we've done. I learn from that. We constantly track past cases by, you know, new cases that come in the door. We'll know that. We have scans saved back more than 12 years now. And all of that is chronicled and can easily be pulled in a digital realm today. So we can learn so much from what we're doing, even on the simple smaller cases.
I like the fact that, you know, you're protecting also your integrity and your fees. And it's not a race to the bottom because a lot of clients, they'll do the larger cases with one laboratory and then they'll choose their bicuspids and molars. And, you know, they want, you know, a $60 crown. But yet, honestly, they still want it to fit, function, be perfect. Margins are all there and they demand all this level, but they choose how they want to pay for it. So I just think that's a great example of how your continuing to not do the race to the bottom.
Well, I appreciate that, Barbin. I'd like to think that this was a sustainable path in our industry. The industry is changing. I think we can stand tall and try to protect it, but we have to be realist. Things are changing here on this stuff, you know. before, the skills of your hands could really dictate your price. And the consistency of it all was really actually where the value was. You can make a pretty crown one out of 10 times, but if you can make a crown that fits and functions 10 out of 10, well, what has the value there? So today with digital and putting good systems together, you can be more efficient. You can still have good margins selling a lower price restoration. And the truth is, guys like me that are still selling at a high price point, that time is kind of, you know, not going to be as solid for the long term. So being a realist on that, expanding your knowledge base, getting better at the craft on the more difficult things that still can capture those bigger margins is something that I like to really Push technicians to learn. I'm such a big proponent to education and to, have personal growth and have accountability with what you're doing. So often I see technicians that are so amazingly skilled at one little aspect. They've focused so hard on. They've gotten great at that. But the industry's kind of passing them by. They're not looking to broaden their wings to look at the things that can give them relevance longer.
That's a great point.
Yeah. Speaking of education, where did I see you? Florida and Chicago? Well, yeah, that's true, but it seems like you're on the circuit for speaking these days. I am. Have you always done that or is that reason?
No, I, again, like anything else, people that are super passionate about this and that choose to give back, we're not doing it for the money. the time that it takes to put together a good program, and to share the wisdom and the little bit of honorarium that you get from these manufacturers, that's not where my direction is. And for the last, 10 plus years, I've been doing it because I want the trade to continue to evolve and continue to share wisdom in a good manner. I'm one of those guys that, coming up, not having that day-to-day conversations like I do today, I think techs today have such amazing resources to get better. The hardest part of it all is you have to still want to do it. So for me, traveling and doing these things every week before I go to these things, I ask myself, what the hell am I doing this for?
It's probably 1 A.m.
When you're putting together your program. week before gridding it out, I'm remembering that plane ride home, that Monday morning after getting an e-mail or a text or some sort of comment that went through on that thing. And I do it for that because these people, these people that expense their travel to come and share this, they deserve that attention. They deserve to have a good program. They deserve to be able to take something back to their lab on Monday and have value with it. You know, before on these things, people going to these shows, it was more or less a, let's puff my chest out, show a beautiful crown, and not really learn anything from it other than just being inspired. And there's nothing wrong with inspiration, but I really like to teach from a level of some way of giving back, being able to utilize this in a more streamlined manner. And that's what I think real education is about and real continuing education in a short weekend little setting aside from going to the big bar, you know, this is the best part of it for me, connecting with people, looking in the eyes of a young technician and having them feel heard. To me, that is awesome.
So what do you talk about recently? Like what'd you, what'd you talk about in Florida or Chicago?
Florida, wasn't it tough to get here for you?
Yeah, that was not a fun travel. But yeah, that was a keynote. So the keynote that I did for the FDLA, Danielle and Alex are two amazing individuals that give back to this trade. And they asked me if I'd come out there and do this. And And it was difficult. I'll tell you why. every one of my lectures over my life have been technical. It's been very easy. I can talk teeth all day long, but when you're talking about feelings or directions or any of this stuff, it may sound like it comes off easy when I'm sitting here chatting with you, but the truth is, digging deep and really reflecting on those things are difficult. There's a lot of times in this life we put little memories in compartments and hide them away because they were hard. And that keynote for me was really demanding because it chronicled my real path and journey in this, much like the podcast that I started.
Yeah. So basically you just talked about your journey and the emotion. Yes, emotion.
It was the emotion and it was. That keynote was all about, how we can lift up our staff, how we can lift up the people that really make a big difference, our right hands. The reason why, people like me can be successful is, related to the teams and the people that are around them. I don't take, all the pride of doing it myself. Very happy with the effort that I've put into it, but the truth is, I couldn't have done it alone. And if I was, it was going to be much less than where I've accomplished. But now, we have Chicago coming up. I got some travel. I'm going to Iva Claire's main mecca in Liechtenstein in the middle of this month. So. Wow. So I'm doing some things. I connect again with relationships. Ivoclair has been such an amazing partner to me in my laboratory over the years. I connect with the company more than just the materials that they produce. I think that they have some really amazing people there. And while, you know, many of them are aging out and changing the new leadership that has come in, have some great ideas, they're doing some amazing things. And I partner with companies like that. So coming into Chicago, I have a couple lectures that I'm giving, one for Argan and one for Ivo Claire as well. And then we have a bunch of other stuff through 2026 that are already on the books. But my main focus here recently is this little podcast that I put together. And I'd like to share a little bit about that with you guys.
Oh, yeah.
Well, yeah, let's talk about it. It's called Margins and Meaning. And I love this. And I've listened to everyone and kudos to you for getting on a mic. by yourself. I just don't understand how you wrap your head around that.
I do. Listen to him talk. He's a natural.
It's amazing that you can do this. I could not fathom doing this by myself, but kudos to you.
Thank you. And let me tell you. So it got started with the whole reason I started this was I wanted to chronicle my journey for my children. You know, I lost my parents here and, you know, you start to really reflect. How much do you really know about your only the stories that maybe they shared over holiday dinners, and you'd hear the same stories over and over and over, but there's so much more to a person's life. So my initial thought was, you know, I... I'm getting up there in age. I'm starting to worry that, I believe that a person's relevance is based on their experiences and sharing that with anybody that's willing to listen has been great. And if somebody could get some pearl out of the struggles that I've been through on this journey, all the better. But it was more of a selfish thing up front to share this with my children. And the real funny part of it all, I don't think they've listened to one damn episode.
So that's family for you. Did any of your kids get into the film?
No. So you know what? And to be quite frank, there was a disappointment with that over my life early on because, you know, I wanted to have this legacy passed down, and have them embrace, these deep feelings that I have for these teens that I'm involved with. I never wanted to leave that alone, but they made their own path and I am proud of them. They really chose what they wanted to do. And you know what? Who knows? Maybe they get sick and tired of what they want to do and come pick up the words at one time. But I seriously, seriously doubt it. My son is an amazing artist and he works for Meta and he worked in a little startup company doing virtual reality video games. He knew at 13 what he wanted to do and he made it happen and it's been such a great path for him and now working for Facebook and all the industry changes that's been going on there has been great. My daughter who just got married this year which was really an amazing tear-breaking circumstance. It was just awesome. She's a wedding photographer and she works in a fine art gallery as a saleswoman and she's done exceptionally well for herself as well. I'm both very, very proud of my children and, you know, that's my pride.
And both of them followed a little bit of an art. which is what you are. Both of them are into art.
So I really never looked at it that way, but it's so true. My first wife was, she's a teacher, but she went to school for art history and she was a very talented artist. She could look at somebody, take a pencil and just make a photograph out of them. And I was always in awe with that. And while, you know, I can take a mouse and do a tooth, I can take wax and a carver, all of the medium. are very similar in the fact that you can use your mind's eye to do something exceptional. But, you know, I always thought it was the mother's side that really gave it to her, not the father's side, but even though we're all creating something in some way, shape, or form, it was following their mother's footsteps more than their father's.
Huh, interesting.
Yeah.
So the idea came to you, I want to do this for my kids. I want to tell this story. Talk about the steps.
So it started with this. I told myself, one, you know, I'm not doing this for money. Two, it's not going to be, you know, beholden to any sponsorship. I wouldn't have to be specific. I wouldn't have to tailor my words. I was going to be able to give freely and share honestly and not be beholden to any of this. And with that, starting this path, I said, I have to create some sort of following, which is very difficult in a niche market like this. So I needed to use what I consider my strengths, which is storytelling, and be able to give a feeling. And feelings are one of those things, especially on just an audio format. It's hard to share. So chronicling a path in dentistry was not something that just flows off the tongue, but, forcing myself to remember those hard moments and forcing myself to really try to reflect on what I learned from that. And then putting a format together for short little episodes. I thought, you know, it'd be really easy to listen to somebody for 20 minutes without really getting sick and tired of their voice. And it was kind of narcissistic for me to think that anybody would want to listen to this. And I've had such great feedback from technicians that really are, saying what I just said earlier, we're not alone. We're all a bit crazy. We all have the same struggles. We've all felt and been in similar situations. And maybe not everybody pivoted or changed the way I did. So maybe hearing that story could empower somebody to change. I think change and fear are the two things that really fight us in this life. And if we can gravitate to, be open to the possibility that we don't have everything figured out, and that's okay. But looking forward to making a better choice and better paths to making meaningful change. Well, that's something we all should really want to do.
Did you know like what you wanted to talk about on your first episode? Like did it come to you in the middle of the night? I mean, did you have like two or three things already cut out that you knew you wanted to talk about?
I wanted to share me. I wanted to share who I am, what influenced me, how I got started in this trade, the pitfalls along the way. way, the learning situations. I'm up to 7 little episodes in a month. And in that time, those seven episodes were to try to give me some credibility. I want people to hear who I am. They may have this belief on who I am. They may have seen me lecture, they may have seen me on social media, they may have seen something about me, but the bigger segment of this trade, this world, I'm just some nobody in Southern California making teeth and doing it for a long period of time. So if I could share some... credibility that can grow on you and you have you want to listen to me deeper, well, then I can get into some of the more fun stuff, not just the stories, sharing specifics about how we can do certain things in digital, give back in a meaningful way, much like I said, be able to take it back to the laboratory on Monday. Short little ways that we can share ideas to spur innovation, spur passion, and push this trade to back to that craft era that we all love. And that's what I don't want this trade to fade from.
Do you write out? I mean, it's so well said, every episode. I mean, do you write it out or is that just you?
So yeah, so I am very visual. So I don't practice. Every one of those recordings are are in chapter.
Take one? All in one take.
I will say if I stumble on a word, instead of cutting it out, I will reread it based on what I'm saying. So it's not verbatim. Most of my things are based on feeling. So I'll put a chapter-based system. For 20 minutes, it's literally less than 3,000 words. And 3,000 words to me is, is spoken in a cadence that is not rushed and has inflection. And that type of preparation takes a little time. It's not 20 minutes of time. So for me, I want it to flow. I want the story to have you asking, is there more? What's the next step? And I have people that say, hey, these are too short. Make them longer. Well, It's by intention. I want you to want more of this. And as soon as I see the numbers grow to the point where we can substantiate longer versions, we'll add some of those things in. But again, I'm still at that beginning stage where I don't know what the hell I'm doing. All I'm doing is just talking into a flipping microphone. I don't know how to market it. I don't know how to do any of this stuff. And it runs so similar to my path in dentistry. all of the things that I've learned in this trade, aside from putting my head down and just putting reps in, was by osmosis. And I've said that in my podcast. It's based upon being surrounded by people that are smarter than you and really absorbing what they have to give you. And early on in this trade, well, that wasn't the norm. So, you know, over the years, I want to do the same thing. And when it comes to this little podcast, you know, and learning from it, I need to see that there is some, attendance that somebody really wants to listen to. So the numbers are small. it's, you expect that you're going to be somebody overnight. It just doesn't happen. You know, I have, thousands of downloads already in just this little, little format, which is encouraging. But God knows if they're bots out there, you know, mining my words in some way to come back and punish me in some, I don't know. But the truth is, what makes my life best is when I wake up in the morning and I have a text on WhatsApp or I have something on Messenger or some sort of e-mail comes in to me and they say, thank you, that, you know, you've made a difference. So, you know, I've not been the greatest of that with people in my life. So, you know, it's encouraged me. You've seen that I've reached out to you guys for a reason because, you know, I started thinking about that. It's the little things that we can do in this life that makes life better. Being kind is not hard, and I don't understand why it's not the norm out there. I think certain people have an innate ability to just give that, and I want to gravitate to do that more. So Doing these little things, acknowledging the people that are giving more and doing more and making sure that they know how important they are in this life, I think that's being a good person and I want to be that good person.
Wow. For our podcast, since we're guest-based, and I think I've mentioned this a few times, I would never do this just talking by myself, but I enjoy it when the guests reach out after telling us, how much feedback, positive feedback they got from their episode.
Which happens A lot. Yeah.
You could reach out to Barb and I and say, we're great, but man, we're just driving the car of someone else's story. And I love it when people say, oh, so many people reached out to me. That's to me is the reward from doing this.
Yeah, I think that all of us in this life, we, you know, we don't come on and talk for an hour if we don't have something we want to share. And Sharing and being heard are two different things. So, when you get the feedback from people that actually listened, that is encouraging. It makes all the passion, all the things that you hold dear in your heart that much more meaningful. And I think that that's a pretty common occurrence with people. You know, it's not just our egos that want to get stroked every now and then. The truth is, good people that have something worth listening to should have a forum to do it. And I think that today with the internet and what we have with social, too much of this is just short little blurbs that really have no power. And our minds are getting trained to think that is what we need. And I hate it. I can't stand it. And I hate to be part of that. But the game today to try to grow that side of any type of following is you got to play the game. So I've tried differently with this podcast to be a little different, share stories and really just talk in an honest manner. And so far it's been fun. It's still fun. So I'm not quitting anytime soon.
Good.
How did you come up with the name? Or how long did it take you to come up with the name or do you just automatically know what you wanted to say?
What are some ones you didn't go with?
That's a great question and I wish I would have kept it. I literally... sat there for almost an hour just putting names out. And all of them sound stupid. And even this one I connect with only because it has a little double entendre to it. And being in dentistry and having some sort of tie to it, there really is the meaning of life, the meaning of what we do, the meaning of why we choose what we do on a day-to-day basis. it all has a margin to it. So those are the little ideas on how I started with that. And, it's some get it, some don't, but that's some get me, some don't. it's that's been the biggest wisdom over life is that, you're going to connect with the broadest range of people if you are not pushing, boundaries. I like to push boundaries and share truths, my truths. And that's what this podcast has been all about.
So you're what, 7 episodes in at the time of this recording?
That's correct. In a month.
Yeah.
I started right after Thanksgiving with the idea. And, you know, this month I had a little more free time. You know, it's funny, you know, It's been a really weird year. This is our first year. We still ended on a high. We still did well, but the last quarter of this year, the industry as a whole had a pullback. It was really odd. And I've been pushing very hard to empower my team to make decisions on their own and not have to be so involved on a day-to-day basis. I still love it. It's still fun for me. So I did take a little extra time this month and a longer break. And I'd been doing some new things for my health and my life and just change things up a little bit here. And again, not just forcing myself to how I did it before. And the podcast just started and I had such fun. I had good feedback with it from the get-go. And I started, looking forward to it. was another way. So once I get through the story base to be able to get up the modern day, well, then I'm going to do little chronicles going back and subsets of this is what happened in this part. And this is how I got into implant dentistry. This is how I got into full arch. This is how digital came into my lab. All of those little stories have relevance because it allows somebody that maybe considering that to get into that. It's a neat way to do it. And then I'll eventually bring on specialty guests that are aligned with me, and I want to hear their stories. My biggest thing is, just because you've heard my story, well, there's 100 hundreds of stories out there of other paths that were ending up in the same place, but completely different journey. And that's what I think is interesting out there. If I'm going to sit here and talk about the newest zirconia, that's going to be pretty cut and dry. Why would you probably still market for that aspect out there? The better part of our day-to-day, I think, is decision-making and thinking on your feet and being able to adapt to challenges, that's been my relevance over this career is to be able to, outthink the next guy when it comes to challenges. if it was all easy, everybody would do it straightforward, right? So it's those challenging cases that come into the laboratory that, really push that expert status because you have to be able to not just think that one-size-fits-all for all of this stuff. We're not making widgets. And while every one of the things that we do are a one-off in a day, if you think about it in that mindset, well, it should be rather straightforward to get to the finish line. But some of these more challenging multidisciplinary cases require out-of-the-box thinking. And that's the part that I enjoy the most.
It's going to be really hard to to bring on a guest to keep up with what you're doing, man. You do such a good job. It's going to be hard to follow.
Well, thank you for that. You know, that means more to me than you know. You know, you guys are the bar that you've set here because I don't know anything about this stuff. I've listened to other podcasts out there and I don't connect with a lot of them. You know, a lot of this stuff is so sensationalized and selling and all of this stuff. It just drives me nuts. I'm not looking for, you know, a 30 minute advertisement. I want to be able to connect with the story. And the ones that I connect with, those are the ones that I keep going back to. I walk every day, three to six miles, and have headphones in when I'm not with my wife, and that's been a real gift to be able to do that. Before it was always music, and now I want to... expand my thinking with listening to other people's stories.
I've been listening to you on runs, so you got one person doing it.
Well, I appreciate that. And what I would really love is... in private, maybe send me a little note saying, hey, you know what, John, you really sucked at this part. And this is where you could get better because those are the real world. That's where I learn. And I never take it as criticism. I want to have growth. And I asked my closest friends, I said, be honest. Did I sound like a tool here or what happened here? Really, really be honest with me. And most of them are very complimentary. So, you know, I'd like to learn from it. That's the only way I'm going to improve. I would like to think.
I know everybody is their worst critic, but dude, I got nothing bad to say. It's like listening to a story of someone's life that I can relate to because it's the dental lab industry. I mean, that's all it is. And it's an easy listen, which is nice. It's a fun listen and I always look forward to when they come out.
Well, thank you so much.
And they come out a lot. Ours is every Monday. Yours is like double that.
Initially, I think I stepped on myself one time and saying that I was going to put out a couple a week and I started right away second guessing myself because it's impossible. It's too much time to be able to put something meaningful together like this. And it's been fun because here's the real thing. You know, it's one thing to be able to have to chronicle a technique and to be able to think about how I can explain that. But going back and recounting your journey, a lot of the things you haven't thought about for years, and when you go back, 40 years, there's things you haven't thought about so long. And then you open that can of worms and then all of these feelings just come back. And that's where I think that the stories really get their merit from because it's based on that initial feeling that I had when I was recounting it and You know putting these little little snippets together to remember so that when I'm just talking off the cough I can go ahead and make it a sound smooth.
And especially in our industry like we can feel feelings and emotions We're emotional people and I think that's why it's so easy to connect with you when you're talking and just the way that you sound and the things that you say day. Like I'm just like all in.
Barb, you're too sweet.
And you know what else I love? I love the fact that we talked about our industry and how amazing it is. How many people are sharing your posts on Facebook and giving you shout outs like Joe Young and all of us. And I think also it's like we're promoting the amazingness of it. I think it's like you said, it's self-promoting itself, but all of your friends and all of the people that are totally digging the podcast are promoting it also.
Well, I love the fact that, you know, whatever I have to say is somehow connecting with others, that they're willing to do that. And to me, that's the justification for the time and effort it takes to do it. But it does. Every single time I pop in into Facebook or Insta or any of these forums where people are saying something about it, anything that I do in this world, well, that takes effort. And I think It goes back to what I said earlier. I think that not everybody puts that out there. And I connect with the people that really, really do. There's a handful of people in my life that are advocates. I mean, true advocates that are going to be by my side, regardless of what I have to say. And then there's other friends out there that you know anecdotally, and very little, really firm connections with them over time. And those are the people, when you hear them say something, complimentary, it just warms my heart.
Yeah, it's so genuine too. It's amazing.
I truly enjoy when the people say nice things. I'm like, who is that? You know, I don't know them. Which is cool.
It's been it's been fun, watching the journey evolve because I wasn't sure. And again, I don't want to, go over the same points over and over, but sometimes when I'm listening back to me talking, I'm thinking, who is this Jack? And what the hell is he having to say this? And why would anybody be connected with this? And then, you know, the episode comes out and I'll get a pat on the back in some manner and I'll have to rethink it. Much like those lectures that you prepare for thinking, why am I putting all this effort in the week before? But the end of the game is if there's value to it, well, you're going to know and the feedback will come and so far so good.
Awesome.
It gets a lot easier listening to yourself.
I hate it.
It's or you could do or you could do Barb. Barb just never listens.
I sound like a man. I really hate it. And technology's been awesome. You know, I did invest in some good equipment to do that because there are people in this genre where you listen to and that voice is just not fun to listen to. And And for me, listening back to my own voice, I don't sound like that. That's not me. Who is that? And I think that's just, it's just human nature to be your own worst critic.
Yeah, so true. So margins and meanings on all the platforms, I imagine. Apple Podcasts, Spotify, all of that. We always have to tell people, as soon as you get done listening to us, go check it out.
I really appreciate the plug. And the truth of the matter, I didn't come on the show for this. What I really came on.
No, of course not.
I really wanted to come on this. You have a lot of interesting guests and you have a lot of repeat people that have come back on, but I really wanted to allow me to have some retribution here because you told me last time I took over the show and talked non-stop for an hour. I don't have to listen to that first thing. I'm thinking, Man, what a motor mouse. Shut up. Let them ask a question.
Oh, we love it.
I told you that. We love that. We love it when they just let us not work. Yes.
Well, you did great. And thank you again for coming back.
It's been my pleasure. Both of you guys are so awesome. And I love to hear your guys' story. And I think you guys should talk a little bit more about that. I think it'd be curious to say, you should do one show, just you and Barb, and you go back and forth finding out little things that you think you know everything about one another. I guarantee there's something interesting there.
Oh yeah. I don't disagree.
Maybe.
Awesome.
Or maybe that's why we've gotten along so well is because we haven't done that.
So who knows? Oh, that's fun.
Good job.
Well, John, I look forward to more episodes. Keep doing what you're doing, and we'll see you in Chicago, I imagine.
Yeah, I look forward to it. It's always a pleasure to spend time with you. guys are great people, and Chicago will be here before it, but in the meantime, you guys take care of yourself. And thanks again for the opportunity to come on your podcast.
Thank you so much.
Absolutely. Anytime.
All right, my friends.
I'll talk to you later. Have a good one.
Take care. Bye-bye.
A big thanks to John for taking time away from your podcast to come on ours. We appreciate your approach to tell your story, the good along with the bad. Hey guys, be sure to go find margins and meetings on all platforms. You can listen to his podcast. He's a really great storyteller and the subject matter is all something that we can appreciate. If you want to see more, remember also he's speaking in the Ivo Clark Ballroom during lab Day Chicago. Also, thanks for letting us ask a few questions this time, John. We love you.
Yeah, we appreciate it, sir. Thank you so much. All right, everybody. That's all we got. We are down to what, about 3 weeks till lab day? No. Four, three, 4, whatever. So. See you soon. But we'll talk to you next week.
Have a good one. I got it.
Okay, good. Because I don't. The views and opinions expressed on the Voices from the Bench podcast are those of the guest and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the host or Voices from the Bench LLC.