Looking for a way to unlock the full potential of your digital dentistry workflow. I'm Elise Heathcote, associate manager of digital services with Everclear. I'm excited to introduce you to Cam Academy. I have a new in-person training experience designed specifically for dental technicians. This hands on course explores the full potential of program Cam software, helping you take your digital workflow to the next level, learn directly from our experts, refine your skills, and bring new precision and efficiency to your lab. Cam Academy is more than a course. It's your next step in digital excellence. To reserve your spot. Visit the Everclear Academy website or contact your local Everclear sales representative today. Welcome to voices from the bench, a dental laboratory podcast. Send us an email at info at voices from the bench. Com and follow us on Facebook and Instagram. Greetings and welcome to episode 392 of voices from the bench. My name is Alvis. My name is Barbara and it's Friday. Elvis. A much needed Friday, indeed. Oh, finally. We're doing this on a Friday instead of an early Saturday morning when I can sleep in and enjoy my coffee. And, you know, not that I mind talking to you, but I do like doing this on Friday. I'm hard to wake up to. I get it, I get it. So when we were out in Texas at the race for the future, you know, talking to the other labs, everyone seems a little, I'm not going to say slow or stagnant, but kind of plateaued. How are you or how's everything down in Florida? I know I always say this, but I am so effing busy. I'm tired. So you're getting all the work. You know, we're largely heartland and they pay almost $100 a unit for our work, so it's not like they're $50 units, but interesting. They crank out the interiors. And so I do a lot of small design, a lot of digital diagnostics, and it's just extremely busy. So I would say we're fortunate and I'm happy it's Friday because I'm about out of here. Yeah. Even the offices, because I spend a lot of time going into offices all day and even they seem to be slow and they're even talking about how slow they are. And I've, I've seen online, Dennis, refer to this as suck timber. Really just sucks how slow September is. I'm gonna use that. I'm doing that. Please do. And not just for dentistry. I know that's what I was saying. Well, it's my birthday month, so that's kind of sad. But, you know, I do like, you know, sorry. I'm not going to go there. Yeah. PG pg. So they're slow now. We're about to hit that end of the year rush. And I just think, you know, the economy and blah blah blah. I think I think everyone's just a little slow right now. Except for you. Everyone's sending it to Barbara. Oh. All right. So how's the running going? You good? I'm still running. Yeah. I hurt my knee. So I've been biking. I biked every day this week. So I'm back in hardcore thinking maybe I'm going to do a triathlon. Elvis, because I got a cross train, so I'm just going to swim, and I'm going to bike until my knee gets better, and then I can start running again. I heard it like three days before the race, and I was, you know, your typical athlete. There's nothing wrong. I'm fine. Yeah, but there's definitely something wrong. So I've been nice in it and I gotta stop for about a month. So. So I switched to bike, so hopefully it'll make my a little tighter. And what, you'll be back running in a couple of weeks? Yeah. Three. Awesome. So last week, Barb, I got to geek out on all things over dentures and implants. And I know when you say that you really mean it, I do. I love this stuff. I know, but this week you got to geek out on all things anterior cosmetic work. Totally. Yeah, because Jed Archibald is back on the podcast for the third time and finally by himself. And he was awesome. Jed's known as the guy who put pretty much everything to the test and really knows what works and what works to make everything better. Jed comes on to give us a brief background on how the family got into dentistry, how he's handling those minimum prep veneers with Empress Empress, his new and improved resins that he's actually developed that's meant for technicians and his new role at Utah Valley Dental Arts. So join us as we chat with Jed Archibald. Voices from the bench. The interview. Barb and I are super excited today and here. Sorry. You know it's live when you hear Elvis's dogs barking in the background, so that's always a good sign. Makes it real. Barb and I are super excited today to welcome back for the third time. But for the first time by himself, Jed Archibald. How are you, sir? I'm doing great. I'm doing great, you guys. Finally, you finally have me on enough times that you felt you could trust me to do it by myself. Well, I don't know about that. Without supervision, here's Jed. Yeah, yeah. So get get ready. Get ready to be let down. Here we go. No way. Jose, if there's one thing I've learned over the years doing this podcast, Utah is like a Mecca of dental lab people. What's going on in Utah? Can you explain this to me? You know, I don't know what happened there. Well, I will say that Utah is a fantastic place to visit. Anytime you try to do a course or an event in Utah, there's absolutely no trouble at all filling seats. Just because we have a little bit of everything. We feel very fortunate here in Utah, especially if you're kind of a family person. It's very family oriented and it's just fun. There's something for everybody in Utah, we have the most diversity, right. You can head west and you can go out to like the salt flats where it's it seems like you're on Star Wars, or you can go down south to John Wayne Country, or you can go up in the mountains and feel like you're in the Alps. And it's just it's just wild that we have all these things essentially at your fingertips, kind of in one state. So just refresh my memory. Were you born and raised in Utah or did you just move there? I was born well, a little bit of both. I was born and raised in Utah, and I lived for a little bit with my mother in Las Vegas and then in LA for a little bit, and then. Came back to Utah in my teens. Wow. So a little bit a little bit of both. Well, I mean, we know your dad. He's pretty famous in this whole, uh, industry working with Gordon Christensen. I mean, we're not gonna spend too much time on him. We had him on another episode. What did your mom think of all this dental stuff? Was she in the business? Uh, well, that. Wow, what a cool question. So she was not in the business, but she was actually a little bit of the catalyst to my father getting in the business. So when they got together, my mom's dad. So. Grandpa. Yeah, he. He saw that my dad, John, uh, was really good with his hands and tinkering, even though he's got hands, like, you know, the giant hands. Yeah. An oxymoron, but he was really good with his hands, and he's like, you know what, Johnny? He's like, I feel like he might be really good as a dental technician. So they they kind of scoped out a few dental schools, and they found a good one for him. And and off he went. So there is a little bit of a connection there. But other than that, you know, my mom, like probably most wise, probably has a little bit of a love hate relationship with. Oh, God, my mom did you know? Yeah, right. The industry kind of has a way of kind of sucking you in a little. How did grandpa know about it? Uh, Donald. Oh, sorry. I left that out. So he was a dentist? Uh, believe it or not. So he was a dentist. He was a really, really kind of an interesting guy. I mean, so he went through dental school, and he set up shop there in Las Vegas, and he did very, very well. And, you know, uh, he was one of the first, you know, kind of of the early, early kind of, uh, establishes down there in Las Vegas to the point where I believe the bank, if I remember the story. Right. The bank that they used, their account number was like 0006 or something. Yeah, it was their account number and the number. Yeah. So that was back in Las Vegas was definitely a small town, but, uh, yeah. So he was a great dentist down there and part of the community and just just to stand up guys. So that's that's how he knew about it. So he was the one to give you the nudge. Hey, he was the one that kind of steered Papa John and the in the direction and, uh, got this whole crazy show off and going, dang. And he was pretty much doing it your whole life, right? Oh, yeah. Yep. Like most, like most fathers, he was doing it my whole life. He had a couple jobs coming out of school a little bit, and he saw a an ad in the paper from a certain Gordon Christianson looking for a dental technician. He was coming out worse at the time. Not the Air Force, but the military, uh, kind of working off your school debt through that. And, uh, and he saw that and he's like, well, I want to get back to Utah. And, uh, he came up here and and that's how they met. And, you know, they'd had like a did a little audition case where he just did a case for him on the spot, and that was it. So was he like a lifelong technician with Gordon? Was he his lifelong? Like technician? Is he still. He's not working anymore. Is he not your dad? But Gordon. Yes they are. They both are. They're like, yeah they're both they're both in that creepy they might be alien category because they're still working. They won't quit you just you just wander one day. Yeah. You're just going to get a note one day. Like I got beamed up to the mothership. Um, they haven't blinked in three days, but they're still working. That's pretty fascinating. So they're still together? They're still together. Gordon mainly does education. And so cases that he does are revolving around education because his son will, uh, bought the practice and this is probably maybe 20 to 25 years ago. He bought the practice and his running and does and does great. So will does the actual clinical work. And and Gordon really is only supposed to do patient work if it's essentially around education and stuff. Just to just be fair to the practice, he's probably like get let me in there. Let me in there. Oh, I mean, he's. Yeah. You can't you can't stop that guy. It's crazy. No, that's pretty impressive. And your dad to fact that they've had that relationship that long, which I don't know how. I don't think your dad's all that old, so I'm not trying to be, you know, negative. But I know Gordon Christensen. He's, you know, been around a long time. Yeah. There, you there. You probably wouldn't put them in the spring chicken category. I mean, they both are doing what they love, you know? I know there was always there was a phase there where I was trying to think of different ways to help my dad kind of retire or semi retire. And I finally got to the point of, I came to the realization that, you know what? He's he's happy doing this. What am I? Yeah. Why am I trying to push him a different direction? If he's happy, he's happy. And so you know, you let let him be. Yeah. Love it. And you went often. Did your own thing, right. Yeah. Yeah. Is this where you kind of left and started your own? The Archibald Digital. Yeah. Revised us on that story. Okay, so there was, This was. Oh, gosh. This was about 2006 and I had grown up with us. Always been kind of looked at as kind of the crazy people who were the first through the wall, the first to kind of test and evaluate stuff and not just look at stuff in the iffy way, but, you know, evaluate it from if you was and also see if there are missed opportunities with any material or process. And and that's kind of what, what you know, Gordon and my dad were known for. And so as digital really was taking off in the 2000, it went from being kind of like this weird, gimmicky crew that you'd see down in Chicago. And I don't mean that disparagingly, but it was just kind of like, oh, there's those two. There's those four dentists with white tee shirts hugging each other. Yeah. Um, you know, it went from that to really like it was a real conversation. And really at that time in 2006, everyone I knew who was really a really well established, a really well trusted technician or clinician. Words not happy with digital and the results that digital is giving. And I propose the question. It's it's not about what people are doing with digital, but it's what what could you do with digital technology? And that's what I wanted to find out. And so they were very concerned for my future by kind of taking that leap and investing and really just using my capital just for, just for curiosity's sake, to see if it could hold up to classic standards. So back then you were all jazz for digital, and they were both saying you might not want to do that. Yeah. They were both saying that they had their concerns, even though their fans of advancement, they had their concerns just by what you would see out there. Interesting. Yeah. But I think it's pretty profound. What you said is what what can you do with digital? Yes. So you kind of took control of that whole way of thinking. Yeah. I mean, and at that time I was still I was a lot younger than I am now. But at that time, I knew I had a longer career ahead of me and for my own future, that it was something that I needed to investigate and figure out whether I adopted or not was unknown, but I needed to thoroughly vet it out, just like we've done anything else. And dentistry. And so that's where Archibald Digital was kind of born. And as with everyone, a lot of headaches, a lot of pain points, learning curves, late nights and a lot of back and forth of like, well, you know, I mean, that's you know, maybe we can go all digital in these areas, but maybe we need a little hybrid of both in certain areas where you do a little digital analog and, and try to find where the sweet spot is, where, you know, at a certain point technology is just another tool. Yeah. So at that time, what part of it were you doing digital. Were you learning to design? Were you obviously you were learning to design, but what else? Yeah, it's the same. So the same process that I try anytime a technician is want to get into it. It's the same process that I went just for financial safety really is your biggest learning curve and the best thing you can do to control your identity, your brand is to take control of design. You can send files a million places to have a million different people make them. And you know, yeah, some may be good, some may be bad. But, you know, 80% of the control is in your brain. And if you can get that in design then then you're tackling that. And that's also kind of the biggest learning curve. Right, right. And so everything after that is kind of like, you know, it's a little nuanced for everything after that. As far as maybe it's more convenient to bring in a mill. Is it financially better to bring in a mill. Uh, you can go back and forth on that because, you know, you look at what we offer for milling, you look at what Oregon offers for milling, and it's like. Gosh, you know, the ROI on a million house is maybe not as great as the convenience of having a million house. And so that's that's the same process. I try to help other technicians and advisors like, you don't have to go buy everything, right. You don't have to go get a big loan and leverage yourself and and hope your five accounts stay with you. You can just start with digital, start with design, start there and get that under your belt. And if that is all you need, like if outsourcing from there is all you need, great. You know, you just save yourself a ton of headache. Yeah you do if you feel like yeah, if you feel like you can't get what you need from outsourcing partners, or you have maybe higher demands as far as time frames, or maybe you want a little more control as far as playing around in green State. Okay. Well then those are arguments, valid arguments to think about. Bring it in-house out of the appropriate time. But it's not an all or nothing approach. Speaking of design, what where do you use? Which software do you prefer? You know, what do you like best? That's a tough question. We know. Well, I'm a I'm a victim of being very busy. So I got very good at three shape. Sure. And when you say very good at three shape, you're very good at work arounds in three shape. Right. Yeah yeah yeah. Oh yeah. Three shape. When you're talking about single units, it's the king. You're not going to beat it there. But when you start getting into larger processes, maybe some combination cases, you know, some of your bigger implant cases, veneers, minimal prep dentistry, things like that. You know, it's it it's almost like the software is too smart for its own good and it stumbles over itself. Yeah. And you got a ticket. People that know the tricks tend to not leave through shape, and people that can't find the tricks tend to abort and go Excel CAD, because Excel CAD is just it's more it's more free, right? It's less guided. It's just kind of like whatever you put in the order for them. I kind of don't care. You're going to have access to all the tools. Yeah. And, you know, you figure it out on your way where three shape tries to kind of automate and simplify things for a little more of a production sense. So depending on what you put in the order for may dictate what tools you have access to. And and that generally is where you start to see a lot of the issues come up. So if you know how to get around it, it's a wonderful platform and a wonderful tool. And Excel CAD is a wonderful platform, wonderful tool. And you know, blender has its benefits and, you know, and even companies like Metis who are doing these little app based modules like, yeah, some of those are impressive. And they and they have their place at the right time. So I'm just curious, as a ceramist and not not a designer, you talk about the minimal prep veneers. What is the workaround? Because I know it's kind of like 8/10. How do you force it into making a thinner design so that you can press it? Is that a workaround? It's kind of. It's more of a pick your poison I talk about. Yeah. So you can go as thin as you know, the 8/10 thick is usually referring to the manufacturing process when you get into milling. Right. And you know, if people who know me know I'm not a huge advocate for milling lithium by silicate or other substrates. Correct. Yeah. There is a product that is, I think, a secret sleeper out there which is Empress Multi. Most people don't know that it's still is available. Um I use it. Yep. It's fantastic. I mean it's glass. Right. Yeah. And really, when you talk about an Imax veneer, let's say an Imax veneer, your average lab out there doing an Imax veneer, if they're good. Lab, right. Imax veneer is going to be maybe, let's say 3 to $400. Just rough range that they'll sell an Imax veneer for a feldspar veneer. A handmade feldspar veneer is probably going to be the 600 to 900 range. You know, there are some guys doing like 1200 for a full feldspar veneer. Um, maybe in Utah, but not out here in Indiana. Well, not not in Utah, but there are. Because when you get into wow, you're getting into you're getting kind of the legends of the industry. Sure. Big time. It's definitely a big range. Now the Empress multi as far as what you deliver in a product you can do it CAD. You can mill it, you can polish it, and it's beautiful. Or you can start staining glazing and it just gets better, but it is closer in an end product to a feldspar veneer than it is in Emax veneer. Totally interesting. And so we agree. Yeah. And so with very little different process compared to a milled Emax, you can almost double essentially you can, you know, 50% to 100% up your price for the product. And so and because it's worth it, it's worth it. It's absolutely it's absolutely stunning and almost makes you feel bad. How easy it is. Um, so that that's a product where I really am a fan of milling. Uh, it's great, I love it, but for veneers, minimal prep veneers, if I want to do lithium silicate, which I love doing, I do print to press. And so if I do print to press, I can design a 510 thick veneer. I have a 0.1 margin thickness on that thing. And I can I know I can because it's pressed and the crystals are formed to my shape. Right. Um, I can easily thin that thing down to 3/10 in spots and not have an issue ever. Yeah. So there's so the workaround to that really is kind of the post-processing as far as 3D printing with good casting and pressing resin and having a good technique there. And. And that makes that very easy. And then, you know, the the pick your poison part of that is just with your inner proximal margins. Yeah. As you because we do need a little bit of thickness just to make sure they hold up through pressing and those margins, you know, there's sometimes touching depending on how the doctor preps veneers. And so you have kind of these overlapping margins. But that's that's not a big deal. You just finish your margin before you start seeding and doing contacts. It's kind of a a different order of process, but it's it that's a fantastic way to do it. In worst case scenario, you design things, you know, you may have a spot or a blob or a corner. That's that. You need to press 510 thick, knowing you're going to take it down to 3/10 or even yeah, even even 2/10. Just don't tell anybody. But exactly. But that's the workaround. Yeah, that's the workaround. You can easily see that in the design. And for sure, you know, and that's very easy to get from point A to point B where you start having issues as people who are trying to get to a done finished product right from the printer, right from the pressing, or right from the middle to the mouth in a in a minimal or no prep situation that that's just unrealistic, right? I mean, until robots are prepping or taking impressions, that's unrealistic. I think that comes down to your communication with the doctor. And if you guys have a really good relationship, you're kind of like a. That's not going to work. And I feel like nowadays doctors are more open to listening to our suggestions, um, than they used to be. And so you kind of have that conversation with them and they say, all right, I'm going to go in there and prep a little bit. But before it was always like, just do it. And you know darn well it's going to break or it's not going to make it out the door or the margin is going to chip. But I don't know. I think clinicians are getting better too, and more open minded than they used to be. I would agree with you 100%. Barb, I think I'm actually very excited at this kind of phase of our industry because we've we've gone through a little bit of turmoil where we've had, um, technology and companies and sales, you know, and it's it's I don't think it was necessarily intentional, but. Right. It seems like the industry is kind of trying to divide us a little bit. Clinician to to technician. And now I think everyone has realized like you know what we need a team. We need each other. And and and that's just the best way to do dentistry to my point. Yeah. Great. The work like the workaround I mean the workaround situation like, um, you know, I see a lot of times people who say they can 3D print, uh, veneers and they just go in and they don't have to do anything. And it's like, okay, okay, you know for sure. Okay. Chuckles it's it's like yeah you you can't You can. You know, if you want, you can harm the patient, too. But. Yeah. But the thing is, is, you know, there are little things that we can do as technicians or clinicians that can vastly improve the end result. One of them being finishing margins. And nothing can be printed or milled to a completely finished margin unless it's prepped and designed so. And the simple step of printing a single die and finishing down your margin to that die is the difference between a five year restoration and a 20 year restoration. Right. And that is the difference between having gingivitis and not. And you know, so it's like, yeah, you can see something without finish margins. But you know, I'm going to prefer to finish my margins. I'm sorry. And that's not a big deal. It takes me a few seconds. It's not hard. It's not like I'm, you know, having to get out a big green stone and then go down to four different wheels like, no, I'm a I'm a white Pumicestone away from a finished margin, so it's not a big deal. So you're talking like to the audience like right now when you're talking about leaving a thick margin and ceding something that's got a lip on it, or versus going down and really finishing it to a nice knife edge where the tissue responds and you've got, you know, 20 years of healthy versus. The tissue kind of rejecting that thickness. Yep. Yeah, 100%. And that's the thing is if so, if you are a hygienist and you're cleaning someone's mouth and you have one of those nice, sharp explorers, our goal as a technician and clinician team is to have them with that tip, be able to run up and down past the margin of any of our restorations, crowns or veneers and have it be seamless. Have them not feel it if you can't feel it. Bacteria can't find it. Yep. Here's the dumb question why can't digital get it there? Is it just too small? Well, digital digital can get it. So that's a great question. So digital can get it there. But the question is is humans are in the mouth prepping and touching. And I do not criticize clinicians because I don't know if you've had a chance to to work in the mouth. It's like kind of like being a combat medic. Not the easiest, right? I couldn't imagine, even if I have to help hold a lip, I'm like, I don't know how you people do this. I can feel the breath. Yeah, yeah. There's blood, there's water. You're looking through a little teeny mirror. You have a contra angle. It's actually extremely hard sometimes to visualize the shape of your prep and the margin, just because it is a organic, translucent like material. Your tooth, all that is very troubling. Hard. And so just to get something pressed or milled or printed. It needs to have some measure of thickness. Yeah. Got it. If there's a spot on that margin that doesn't have that minimum amount of thickness, then you're going to have to hand finish it back. Yeah that's it. But if someone could prep a nice mechanical 360 degree shoulder margin around, yes you could, you could print mil or press something that wouldn't necessarily need a a finished margin, but you'd still want to polish it wouldn't you. Yeah. And if a dentist out there can do that I want to let them know about my lab. Uh, please send me work. There's a plug. And that's why you need a lab. We got away from that a little bit with Cerec in there. What is, quote unquote, what is relevant? Dentistry. Yeah. You know, and we saw our standards and statistics dropped dramatically in the US. There's no doubt about it. It's just facts from that narrative. And so yeah, so we have quote unquote clinical relevant dentistry. And then we have classic dentistry which has double the triple the lifespan, which I like the fact that they're starting to go back to that because I come from a large lab and sometimes you see just over prepped teeth. And it makes me kind of sad. And I like the fact that they're going back to, hey, you can be conservative. And you can either mill it or you can press it, but you can still be conservative. Because we've got a product for you. And I think that benefits the patient more than anything. And I definitely see that coming back. I mean, I get a lot more questions from doctors now saying, hey, can you do a conservative prep versus them just going at the teeth? And that's just for me as a ceramist. You know, I feel bad for the patient. So I think that's that. I would definitely agree with you that that is moving in the right direction. Like I said, I can't be more encouraged by a lot of the dynamics I'm seeing in dentistry right now. Yeah, it's we've gone from kind of having a little bit of a dark doomsday cloud in various sectors to, to I feel like everyone kind of sees more of a similar clear path. And, you know, we're kind of getting rid of the noise and, and getting back to having fun and doing good work. I like that quote, getting getting rid of the noise and just getting back to the basics and doing things right. Yeah, yeah. Quote by Jed. Go for it. Yeah, we know Elvis. That's happening. Oh yeah. Of course. So I've noticed recently social media somewhere where I spend a little bit of time. No you're not. You're doing a lot of with CAD Prime. Tell me about it. I mean, I know Barb speaks highly for the product for sure. You know, and I have a car is an interesting company, and they just they've been celebrating their 20 year Imax celebration, and and there's probably been some videos you've seen out there with that. Yeah. Little bit a little bit. They need to be celebrating Empress. I mean you're talking highly of that. Nobody even talks about going back to that. Yeah, right. Well we should. I will. Well, I mean, before we move forward, a little little side food for thought. I'd like to hear from any of your audience if they could pull their clinicians. How many empress have they had? Break? Yeah, I bet it's slim to none. Um, and it's probably still their favorite material. And it's, you know, you look at the emperor of it and stuff, and that's where I'm like, you know, are we kind of in a little bit of an MPA fetish these days? I don't know, but nobody talks about it. Even Ivy. Clara doesn't push it. It's it's a hidden it's a hidden gem. And I encourage, like I said, for those that financial laboratory reasons, it is worth looking into. Oh, hell yeah, you know, but I have a car that is so interesting because they, you know, back in, I believe it was like 2000. Gosh, what was it? It was. 2005 2002. I was thinking 3 or 4. Yeah, 3 or 4. You know, they they were kind of going from, uh, you know, they were in the xenon star days and then but then about 2015 they came out with empty multi and empty multi was so unique because we went from a single composition of zirconia, single composition, meaning single translucency or single type as far as what type of zirconia they can be, you know it can be multicolor or not. Multicolor doesn't matter, but it's a single type, right? It's a single kind of zirconia. Now they have empty multi which was a 6040 split of you know for wiser cornea which is kind of like you know that's a for why. Like origin argon HD plus is is a neat version for why to the top part being five. Why uh which is like Brock's or anterior right. And so this was a higher number. Lower translucency. Is that how it works. Yttrium. Yeah. Just yeah. Just because science wants to keep you on your toes, it kind of it flips you. So it's the urea content which makes it more translucent and less strong. So it's kind of a little bit of a dynamic to wrap your head around. Okay. But yeah. So essentially you're going from low trans to high trans, you know, more strong to less strong, and it was a product that every company out there. I remember that because I had conversations with different companies where they'd come up to me and be like, how can I have a car do this? Because they're like, it's not going to work. It should not work for, you know, a whole myriad of reasons. And, you know, but they they were the first through the wall in that area. Yep. And it was a hit product. Right. But they had smart indications for it. Right. They said because this is this combination material, you know, they didn't want you doing anything more than a three unit bridge with it. Right. Yeah. Which I honestly think is genius. I mean, if they come out and say, hey, we have this really special product, but you've got to go to these parameters and that makes everybody successful. That's what I really respect about Ivy. Clara, I love that. Yeah. Well, and I and I mentioned that because I'm going to circle back to that because it's funny how things have changed, but so from the empty multi days I've a clerk kind of refined and they kind of worked out the kinks and they learned a few things and they really worked on processes. And that's how they came out with this product Prime, which is a completely stable version of that theory. And so a lot of people look at prime and the gradient translucent technology, and they look at that as an aesthetic advantage. And they're kind of like, well, we're splitting hairs. You know, tomato, tomato. But know that the genius of it is its a mechanical stability. So when you combine two different zirconia together, they center at different times in the sintering oven or aka they shrink at different times in the searing oven and you actually cause a little bit of mechanical tension and you can cause mortgage. Yeah, that doesn't sound like it would work. That's exactly right. That's what every company said, right? Um, but that's why I said, you know what? This does work. As long as it's single unit to three unit bridges, right? But they they figured out a way to essentially speed up one part of the zirconia and slow down another part of the zirconia and have them work perfectly together. So they actually center at the same time creating a completely stable material with no tension, no warp edge. You can layer it however you want. You can stain and glaze it, whatever. And and that is completely revolutionary. And as far as I found and I've tested as many zirconia as I can get my hand on, as far as I found, no one else has had that same formulation or been able to fix that problem. And so every company out there right now who is offering a multi translucent zirconia and they can they can feel free to show up and yell at me I don't care, I don't care. We have the we have the picture. We have the data. They know it as well as I do is what's funny too. But the thing is everyone else is multi translucent. Zirconia is exactly the same thing as MT Multi. It has the same problem. It should have the same indications, but they don't. They're playing the numbers game of how many will and may break, because we're doing so many all on X type cases in the US. We're not doing little thimble frameworks where it would break up. We're doing these big, massive hockey pucks and they're playing the numbers. So instead of saying good for 1 to 3 units, they're saying, yeah, go ahead, do a 40 unit bridge, huh? Yeah. And good luck with the fit. And you know what if if it makes it to the patient, I don't mean to freak people out. If it makes it to the page, you're good to go. You're good to go. But there are a lot of labs out there where they've gotten a restoration. They get to the end. They may be staining and glazing it, or they may be polishing it and they drop it and, you know, and they drop it from one inch. They've maybe they've thrown it across the room a hundred times. It's fine. And they drop it for one inch off the table and the hair like a little tuning fork pinging sound. And I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah, and it's in two pieces. Well, that is mechanical tension being released. Yeah. And is that breaking? Right where the the wise meet? Is that what I'm talking about? No, no, no, there's just generalized mechanical tension horizontally between the two Because they're kind of like sandwiched together, one on top of the other, and they're and they're not playing well together. But you got to know it's always going to be there, whether it makes it out of the lab or not, longevity wise. That's like ingrained in the material. It is it is part of and possibly I should say, I don't want to make anybody crazy right now on this podcast. I don't delete that part. But yeah, 80 of them in mouse right now. Wow. Well, I know from me and some of my crazy cohorts who have pushed the limits with empty multi. Yeah, with the intention of having records and recalls and making the patient come back and checking in. Yeah. Pushing the limits just to see you know what that recall limit might be. Uh so far we found that if it makes it to the patient, you're okay. Cool. Like the the the warp edge and the tension through materials is is dramatic and across the board and and so that's why with, uh, prime and prime aesthetic, with their gradient technology being mechanically stable, uh, I go with it. Yeah. I mean, is I've a car maybe a little higher price tag than others, especially for a small guy like me. Yeah, but I don't want to have to redo my work. I don't want to spend a week working on a big, huge restoration and then have it break a glaze like that. That's not fun for me, I don't care. I'd rather have something that I can just. I'd do the work once and I'm done. Doesn't that fascinate you? How there R&D research is that? I have a car, though. I absolutely love it, I love it, and I that's got a geek you out right? Oh I do, I love it, I wish I could if I could somehow feed my family just doing that all the time I would. Yeah. But you know, for some reason there's, you know, it's not in the cards for me here. But the funny thing about Ivy, Clara, and I'm going to be honest here is I, I just don't feel like they're very good at tooting their own horn, because this is. This drives me nuts what they have. We just talked about they have Empress card multi. Yeah a legitimate gold mine. And you never hear about it. You have empty multi which was revolutionary. We didn't really hear about it being revolutionary. You have, you have Prime being a whole new generation and a whole new revolution. And we're still kind of, you know, people are still kind of figuring it out and still and there's a lot of people who feel like all zirconia is the same. And it's like, man, there's so many varieties. And but I've a car is almost two steps ahead, everybody. And yeah, they need to be maybe a little better about being prideful, I guess, so to speak. Maybe that's it. So we use Empress Multi at my lab and I always suggest, hey if you don't have one two. Oh yeah. So but my, my thought is if you don't have any functional issues, if your patients just good to go and they want to do it for aesthetics, it just always I mean it just beats out everybody in my opinion it's just beautiful. It photographs beautifully. It's the most natural looking. So yes Elvis we we we still use it. I'll recommend it. I mean, if it's somebody that's beating the hell out of their teeth and you got to open their bite and you open the vertical and you know, you're worried about longevity. Maybe not, but if it's just aesthetics and they want to improve their smile. Absolutely. Would you agree with me? I 1,000%. I mean, it's it's it's a joy to work with. And it is a secret weapon, and especially if you're looking at it from clinician's point of view, you know, clinicians these days are looking at getting into doing in-house zirconia and even doing in-house lithium dye silica. Even though they've gotten used to it, it's like, you know, that's a process. You got to design it, you got to mill it, you got to crystallize it. And those getting into the zirconia stuff, I just I kind of laugh at that a little bit. I'm like, God help them. I yeah, I look at it, I look at it from the end product and then also from the patient waiting in the chair. I'm like, what are we doing? You know, and then you have a product like Empress multi beautiful product. Um really reliable really trust it. And for a clinician they can just polish that thing and it would, it would arguably look better than a lot of work that I see being done out there. Um it, it's just a fantastic product for you don't have to crystallize it or anything. No, no I know you cut that sucker off the block, seed it, glaze it. You're done. Yeah, it looks wow. You do the margins and everything. I'm not saying half it, but yeah, it's unbelievable. We do our veneers, and I don't know about you, Barb, but we know that at 510 thick with a 0.12 thickness margin. Oh yeah. You've got to have and that's. Yeah. You know and you know milk. Yes. If you if you need something thinner than that, I don't know what you're doing in the patient's mouth, but. Yeah. Thank you. And I honestly don't. It doesn't bother me to thin down a margin. I think it's kind of one of those soothing sort of things that a technician does. They just kind of took the wheel and thin it down. I might love what I do, but yeah, yeah, yeah, one iota. It's funny. I mean, with our conversation we've, we've focused a lot of Empress multi. Yeah. That's funny. Maybe you guys ought to ask for a royalty as the sales. Elvis. Well not me. Well you should at that. I just find it weird that nobody ever talks about Empress. You go to the show, there's not a section for it. That's just. I don't know, I just I honestly thought it was dead. I thought that was gone until now. I guess it's mine. And Barb's little secret. Yeah. There you go. Yeah, I'm good with that. Um, but I think that you represent a very skilled, higher end echelon of technicians that really understand that doctors can still use these products and have a really great result, and the patient's doing backflips and honestly, they're just beautiful. So I think there's just there's a still a place in the world for it. Yes. Elvis. Sincerely. You mentioned printing wax and then pressing. I know a lot of people have issues printing the wax I've heard or whatever you end up really printing. I don't think it's wax, but what do you what do you use? Well, I'm happy in the little shameless that you're going to ask, but I use my own resin, you know, I mean, I. Wait a minute. You made your own resin? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I well, I saw that. How the hell does somebody make their own resin? Well, you just, you know, what you do is you you get dropped a few times as a baby, and then you have a lot of glitters at night, and all of a sudden, all of a sudden, you tap into a part of your brain you never saw before. But wow, that was a great answer. Thank you. What looks bad about your parents? But sometimes it feels like that is a technician. But, uh. No. So. Well, I mean, Archibald Digital has evolved, you know? I mean, I went from kind of figuring out digital to teaching about digital and through teaching, we, you know, I had more equipment and and testing new equipment all the time that I could take care of with clients, you know, I mean, I can only do so much as a technician myself and I so I had a had an abundance of technology around me. And I thought about what could I do with this. And so we started outsourcing to other high end technicians and, and helping them so they could lean on us as they were trying to grow their business and find their way. And we could give them. The best materials and use the best processes and and it would keep the. It would keep all the equipment moving right. Which is what you want in any. Interesting. So you were a milling center for high end. Yeah. You don't hear about this. You know, usually it's like a milling center and they're just cranking out unit and they're 40 bucks each, you know. But you cater to that high end. That's very interesting UK it. Well I mean it's I, I'm passionate about it. Right. And I like it and and really it's all it's all process driven. And when you get things figured out you get it figured out. And it's you're not having to do a lot of hand messing around when it comes to manufacturing side. It's just, you know, have good tools, good materials and good process and, and let people have access to it. And so it keeps the it keeps the machines busy. And then and I can kind of take advantage of that situation I'm in. And and through that as we got into 3D printing, you know, 3D printing was kind of just a little bit of a hot mess for everybody. But I've actually been into 3D printing for, you know, not like some people, but I've been into it for a little over ten, 15 years as kind of a geek. Myself. I've just loved the industry and so to see it come into dentistry and come in the way it had, I it was it was fun to see it hit dentistry. But then also I saw it stagnate very quickly as far as the technology goes. And that's just because, you know, dental companies in general, they, you know, they they don't get to move very fast because they're large companies. Things have to get run through the FDA. And so we were, you know, we would have, you know, essentially a 3D printer that was relevant three years prior, hit the market. Yeah, interesting. 3D printing technology has been evolving almost every six months since it hit the market. And by the time we're seeing what's on the market, they are great machines. I don't mean to disparage them at all. Yeah, they're great machines, great technology. But we've progressed and moved on so far in 3D printing outside of dentistry that it really was frustrating for me. And so I kept playing around with, okay, what again, what can we do with this great technology? Not, you know, not what's being done out there. And and so yeah, so that involved me, you know, playing around with a lot of your off brand, quote unquote hobby printers or popcorn printers because they have the little hood that comes off. And, and it's funny because people, it's easy to discount them because they're easy to poke fun at, by the way they look on the outside. Yeah, but what most people don't understand is the basic technology inside the guts are quite brilliant. They're simple and brilliant, and they deliver better results in many situations. And so I got into kind of helping, trying to push 3D printers to be better. And then, you know, I found that there was a lot of lacking that we needed as far as classic technicians on the resin side. I'm sick of model resins that are kind of translucent and shiny and look like a fricking McDonald's toy. Yeah. You know, and I have my choice between either. Like this. You know, I call like, Porky the pig pink color, a nice mustard yellow, and then like, a dark grey, and I'm like, whoa, what are we doing? So ugly. There's like, what is the deal? Like, we're dealing with ceramics and glass and art and beauty, and this doesn't match this. This isn't what we need. I want, I want classic, I want classic things. I want classic tools. I want to be able to work on models that feel and look like stone. And so we played around with it quite a bit. And, uh, doctor McLaren and myself, we vetted a lot of companies and a lot of resins out there, and we found some great things, but ultimately it kind of led to me just kind of making my own resin. And so we started making model resin and, you know, never looked back. And we love it and support that. What colors did you go with. Well, so we're starting off with our, our I went with the crowd pleaser which is we call it white sand. And it's very matte. It's very opaque. It's as stone like as you can get right now. There's a few tweaks coming in the in the pipeline, but it's a very it's a very, very light buff color. So you could probably equate it more to like at a very opaque, uh, like a bleach four ish kind of color. So not, you know, how sometimes they say something that's ivory and it's yellow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's probably, it probably is closer to what you would expect ivory to be. And so we're starting there and definitely coming out with a, a line of variations of that, something that we like to see as far as ceramics and like to work on because we don't want to work on you don't want to work on a model or hand a case to a patient that is veneers, beautiful veneers, and you don't want to have it look ugly, right? You don't hand them a nice, you know, dark gray model. And hey, here's your veneers. Like real bad. Yeah. It just looks it looks horrible. And on the on the counterpart you don't want to hand them something that's pure white. I've been burned by that too. Where a doctor shown a patient in the case, they're like, why aren't my veneers that white? Exactly. I may be bleached or bleached. Three veneers on a white model and they look yellow. Aha! And the patient freaks out. And so you you want to have a little color. So you you're not, uh, hurting yourself as much as you want to have contrast. So you can see contours and you don't want it to make your ceramic look ugly. And it shouldn't be that hard of an ask. And honestly, as I as I met with R&D teams and talking to a few companies about that, I kind of got the same a little bit of the same response that they as companies and as a vision, they felt like they were going to kind of double down investment in resources towards more your clinical application resins meaning, or the residents that go in the mouth and and charge more for it. Wow. And that's the funny thing. You charge more for it per liter. But how many teeth can a doctor get out of a leader? Well said. I could see right through that. I'm like, oh, they're not going to get the ROI. And and I, I honestly think that's a little bit of the reason why sprint went with the Midas formula. It's not necessarily the technology, but for one crown. One crown, you're going to go through a capsule which is going to be essentially about ten crowns. Yeah. So you look at the volume usage. So I think they're probably solving that problem for themselves, which is good for them. But the thing is, is they felt like their money was best spent looking farther in the future to clinicians in the patient. And that's great. Good for them. But we still had a need as technicians to do our job. And I want to use technology and I want to use good stuff. So I saw an opening in the road there and took it. So we have we have our model resin. We have a really soft, a true 60 shore silicone like resin that is, you know, a little translucent. I call it Ruby. And we have our lavender cast. And the cool thing about newer resins is because we're getting into plant based resins instead of these old traditional resins that are very high VOC, very stinky, you know, they give you headaches and they know the mix, right? Yeah. So now we're into plant based, which are little to no odor. And with our lavender cast. We played with it for a while. So we actually it's infused with lavender oil. Shut up. So really, when you read that, so when you 3D print with it, your printer kind of turns into a diffuser and everyone like you kind of say that I've got lavender and now your lab feels like a spa, you know? So that's crazy. So I, we do the same thing. We just like having fun and it's like fun. The cast was interesting as I, as I kind of tested a lot of the the cast resins out there. I was really surprised at what was being sold because I kind of found what to what you said, Elvis, that just they were not good. Like, not just not good, but not even close to good. Yeah. I heard a lot of people struggle, like, like, how did this make it out of R&D? Like where? Like, did they get one successful casting from this? I'm not sure. I'm like, I'm like, I can't get one and I can usually make anything work. And um, so I was kind of surprised. So yeah. So we offered that through Archibald Digital 3D, 3D resin and, um, you know, we're taking it slow as a company. I've seen a lot of a lot of the printing companies, they usually falter because they push it out the same way they did Mills. They just kind of mass throw it out there and, and hope that the sales teams can figure it out. Yeah. And with 3D printers is just not like that. You know, there's it's too new and nuances of a subject still that there's not enough tools or information for sales and service teams to comfortably help us as technicians migrate into that space and help their staff. And so we kind of take it a little bit. One customer at a time, or we have been for the past two years and kind of making sure we've vetted out our own process, but also making sure that each and every customer is is settled and satisfied before we feel like kind of throwing out an ad and maybe get another customer, if that makes sense. And these are serious customers. These are high end techs. I mean, these you you're not playing. So to make us happy or I consider myself us. That's that's a big deal. They definitely are your more scrutinizing customers. They're not they're not customers. They're not customers doing $100 crowns. Let's say that right. So having something that works efficiently and at a high level is is a premium. Mhm. That's a premium. So we do that and you know I'm happy if people want to give it a go and try I love I love helping people in that space because it's it's a geeky topic for me. It's something that I kind of secretly love. And I get to I get to talk about freshly now. So it's really fun. It's pretty impressive. There's nothing like not liking the material out there, so you just make your own, right? You just can't be. Yeah, well, I've always kind of been that, you know, I'm a I'm, I'm a very practical person. I'm, I'm of the mindset where if you can buy it, if you can buy it, you're probably better off just buying it and using it. But at the same time being, you know, being the person who's up late at night with rock Star and Skittles. Um, if I can't, if I can't buy what I need, I'm going to figure out a way to make it. That's awesome. So before we sign off, we have to talk about before we even started recording. Oh, yeah. And that was fun. Uh, Mr. Jim Thacker jumped online to say hello because you're now at, uh, Utah Valley Art. What is it, Utah valley arts. Utah valley dental, Utah valley dental lab, UV dl yeah. Utah valley dental lab I am here. This is something that is 100% brand new. Still in its infancy. I. You should see the office right now. You would swear I'm just doing like a hands on course right now. It's. You know, half my stuff is still in little crates and bins. I still have my shop. I still have my place of my space there. And. And Archibald Digital still it's own entity. Um, Archibald Digital presents still its own entity. It's still its own nucleus. And I have my good partner, Cody. That's that's running that and making sure everything's good. And he's he's a rock star. But as far as my technician work and as far as my caseload and my patients, you know, I, I, I came across this little opportunity and it really kind of found both of us here. So. Utah Valley had a little opening in management, and I'm not really kind of a management type person, as you can probably tell. I'm a little more of, uh, you know, break a few eggs kind of guy, but but I had been over here. I had been over here the past couple of years because they're actually one of our resin customers as well. Oh, really? I'm not surprised. They were very gracious and open to new ideas. You know, they have four carbons in here and the carbons are it's a great company, brilliant company, great printers. They do what they do well. But they're also kind of geared towards production and not geared towards high end process. And I'm happy to have that conversation with anyone who wants to. But so Utah Valley actually brought us in and they brought our resonance so we could actually provide what their high end ceramics need as far as resin and as far as resolution in detail. We kind of support printers, so to speak. So we have about six of our printers in here and our wash units, and they're running side by side with the carbons. And so the carbons are handling their classic department workflow and the and kind of the heavy lifting stuff. And. And all of our stuff is handling the high resolution, the high end, the ceramic side. So we've been working on that back and forth, and I've been working with them, you know, and kind of helping them out for the past year. Cody and I and they had an opening here and they, they thought, you know what? What if we talk about talk to Jed about maybe coming in and just essentially seeing if there's ways we can help each other out and see if there's ways they can prove, you know, one thing every as an organization grows, the things that you inevitably will be challenged with is you get to a certain size and you start to feel like you need to protect your business. And instead of being aggressive, right. That's usually issue one, right? An issue too is to be efficient. You have to kind of silo people and have these different departments. That's what you have to do for efficiency. And the downsides of that is you you put yourself at risk of being a little stagnant and you put yourself at risk of, you know, Departments losing communication or losing touch with each other, which causes a lot of inefficiencies, you know, and or just unhappiness at your work sometimes. Right. Like if you if you're having to work with other people but you don't see eye to eye, that's not always that fun. That's not always that fun. And so where I'm someone who is a classic trained technician and a little bit of a jack of all trades, and also I understand the digital side, I can kind of come in and help people wherever they are, no matter where they are. I'm here as director of development, essentially, and so I'm going to be able to take everyone, you know, every team here kind of has a little bit of an apprentice type model, but I'm going to be able to take those apprentices and essentially supercharge that process and accelerate them and get them into the working space, probably quite a bit faster than the current process, all while kind of staying my own little individual. Yeah, it sounds Just like your personality. Yeah. So we're kind of mirroring. We're going after a little bit of the, you know, the Ford philosophy where if, you know, if Utah Valley is Henry Ford, I would be essentially Carroll Shelby. So all the crazy, weird ideas that people have can be vetted out and tested by me and my team here without disrupting production. Right. You don't want to disrupt the great things you have going on, because they have a great system. They have about, on average, about 150 cases going out a day. And so you don't want to disrupt that. But at the same time, you want to stay relevant, you want to stay innovative. And so you almost need like a little department of crazy people who you can love it, right? Yeah. They had a void in management and they thought, you know what? Rather than bring in another manager, what if we kind of start this little crazy department idea? Wow. They reached out to me and I'm like, you know what? I am not afraid of change or challenges, and it kind of felt like something that would be fun for me to explore and jump into. And so I was actually pleasantly surprised because I, I kind of felt I kind of felt like it would be something that would maybe be a little too scary or too risky. Well, good for you, man. Usually the topic that I get when never discussions about working with Jed come in. Yeah, but these guys were like, you know what? Let's give it a go. This might be fun. And so I'm actually really happy. So I've been here really just like a couple days. Oh, dude. Oh my God. Really? That new? Literally the new. Yeah. Literally. Literally that new. Crazy. So it's a brand new development happened really fast. It was very surprising. But, um, so far I'm actually very excited about it. Wow. Well, good luck to you guys. Well, it's a perfect band. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Their love for education. Your love for education. It's amazing what you all are going to accomplish, uh, moving forward, but, uh. Yeah. Well, check. Well, check back with me after the honeymoon phase is over. And and and you know, we will. Oh, yeah. They all will share their honest opinions about me at that point, and we'll see. And you know that it might be the conversation, y'all. Yeah, that crazy idiot. We let him go long ago. But, um, you know, and that's fine, you know, because I'll be fine wherever I land, I, I can always do TV. And like I said, I always have my place, and we'll be all right. Well, good for you. Yeah. This is amazing stuff, man. Uh, we always love talking to you. We're so happy we finally got you on by yourself. Yep. And we're what you're doing. It's just amazing stuff. I'm really happy that I qualified to be on by myself because I feel honored. I feel honored to be part of the crew that get to go solo. So yeah. Well thank you. That was awesome. Yeah. Thank you so much, Chad. And, uh, of course I'm sure we'll see you at the next show. And, uh, yes, we will. All the great things you will be doing with, uh, Utah Valley. So. Thanks a lot, man. I'm excited too. Thank you so much, I really do. I mean, I mean, my hat's off and hearts out to you guys because I love people. I mean, and like the Nadel, I love and love people that try to get us technicians together and rally us together because most of us are in our little rooms or offices. You know, we all have our headphones on, and so many of us feel like we're kind of alone in this business. Yeah. And you guys do a great job of kind of bringing this together and making us feel like we're part of a family. So thank you. Appreciate it. So appreciate it. Well thank you dad. We'll thank you. Talk to you next time. Okay. Have a good one. Till next time. A huge thanks to Jed for coming on our podcast and talking all about what you do and Morton, importantly, how you do it. We owe his whole family a whole lot for what we are doing in dentistry today, and it's great to see that he's continuing into the next generation of technology. I agree, actually, some cases Empress just works. And yes, Elvis, I have a car, still sells it. I really thought it was dead, I didn't know. Wow. That was cool though. I do some I was serious when I said I still do something very pretty. Check out this episode, show notes to a link, and also a link to check out some of Jed's printable resins that can make your whole app smell amazing. Lavender. Lavender. Like it? All right, everybody. That's all we got for you. And we will talk to you next week. See ya. Have a great week. Hey, welcome to October. Let's do it. Holy. Let's welcome to suck tober. How about bad? Better October? How about pumpkins and Halloween and vacations for Barbara? Busy October? No, Sally. Get it and get it out. Rawhide. Okay. The views and opinions expressed on the voices from the Bench podcast are those of the guest, and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the host or voices from the bench, LLC.