Looking for a way to unlock the full potential of your digital dentistry workflow. I'm Elise Heathcote, associate manager of digital services with Everclear. I'm excited to introduce you to Cam Academy. I have a new in-person training experience designed specifically for dental technicians. This hands on course explores the full potential of program Cam software, helping you take your digital workflow to the next level, learn directly from our experts, refine your skills, and bring new precision and efficiency to your lab. Cam Academy is more than a course. It's your next step in digital excellence. To reserve your spot. Visit the Everclear Academy website or contact your local Everclear sales representative today. Welcome to voices from the bench, a dental laboratory podcast. Send us an email at info from the bench. And follow us on Facebook and Instagram. Greetings and welcome to episode 393 of voices from the Bay. My name is Elvis. Good morning. My name is Barbara. Or good afternoon. Well good morning, Barb, how are you? All right. We're back to recording early on a Saturday. I know last episode you were very thankful for not waking up to me, but now you're waking up to me. So, yeah, this one. I have moved too far from my bed. But that's okay. You're worth it. Podcast is worth it. Everybody's worth it. It's a great thing about it. Yeah, you can record anywhere. You know, I'm not as chit chatty without my coffee, so let's get going. Yeah. So, hey, we're about a month away from the Nowak dental lab fest that's coming up. It's happening in New Orleans, November 6th to the eighth. It's going to be awesome. I am so excited for this event. We got to give a big shout out to the amazing people at eight eight. They are the ones that are sponsoring for me to go out there. So I'm going to be recording in their booth, next to their booth, around their booth. I'm not sure the exact setup, but definitely going to be set up around eight eight. And I'm going to be talking to all these people that are going to be at this, the show. Of course, Barb, you're not going to be able to make it. I'm going to be on a cruise with my whole family. So I'm super psyched about my cruise, but very disappointed that I will not be there with you, but I can't wait to hear all the interviews and see everybody and all the pictures on Facebook. It's going to be amazing. It is. So everybody listening, you basically have two choices. You can either go to Nola Fest, and for those that don't realize that Nola is new New Orleans and New Orleans Nola Lab Fest. Com and register for this event before it sells out. It's it's getting up there. Or it can be like Barb and miss out and listen to all of us talk about it when we're all in Chicago. Right. Because we're still going to be talking about, you know, that's happening. Yeah. Yep. So many great speakers. But some of the highlights I'm actually really excited for is a river cruise party that has like a 1920s theme, which I think is going to be fun. Stuck on a boat with everybody. Oh yeah. Can't Get Away from me. And of course, the game show to end all game shows, Family Feud Lab edition. That is so great. Yep. Yeah. Hosted by you. The one and only if you're on social media. We've posted the link, but you know no X posted. It's out there to help us fill out the surveys that we're going to be used during the game. So this is your chance to participate even if you can't make it nice. So just go ahead and treat yourself and join me in New Orleans in November. Noah Lipscomb. That's my coffee. That must be coffee. So this week, we got to speak to a technician that has a kind of unique journey to doing something you don't see a lot of technicians doing. Ed Molina was inspired to get into dental by his older dentist brother, but he started off as an assistant, surrounding himself with some very talented mentors. Ed was soon into some pretty cool, facially driven digital workflows that, of course, include facial scanning. Awesome. Now he's in the lab with his brother, but what he's doing is he's helping offices around the country get into digital and helping them navigate the good and get through the bad. So join us as we chat with Ed Molina. Voices from the bench. The interview. It's Ed Elvis. Just Ed. And. Yeah, I gotta get the last one. Is it Molina? Correct. Yes. Molina. Holy crap. Wow. That. You see that? I got it right. Yeah. Barbara and I are super excited today because a gentleman reached out to me on Instagram, I think. What was that? April. Wow. And we were like, we were in Germany. Well, that was the reason we delayed it because he's all like, hey, how do you get on the podcast? I said, reach out in June. I got way too much content right now. It's August and we're out and here we are in August. But we are so excited today to talk to Ed Malone. Oh, I already mess it up. Milan. Milano, right. Molina and Molina. Molina and Molina. You know what, everybody? I had it right before we hit record. Ed molina. Ed Molina, welcome to the podcast. How are you, sir? I'm doing well. Thanks for having me on. Appreciate it. Absolutely. We are so excited to get to know more about Ed and all that you do with XO, Ed and training, but you got a clinical background, don't you? Yeah, yeah I do. So yeah. Let's go back to the beginning. Sure thing. Yeah. So I was pretty blessed. Um, you know, my brother luckily was, uh, going to dental school, and he had a buddy named, uh, Doctor Ahmed Ellis, which my brother put me in contact, because at that point in my life, I was just. I hate to say it, but a lost cause. I was just working at target, not doing much. I had gotten married, and, you know, my brother looked down on me and said, what are you doing with your life? You're married now. You don't have a good job. So there's nothing wrong with target. Let me just say, okay, I get it. I get it. You got to get your shit together, brother. Let's go. Get into dental. That's exactly what he said. He said it. Worst comes the worst. Um, you know, you can work for me. He said, in the meantime, let me introduce you to my mentor, doctor Art Morales. So, um, sure enough, I went to his office. I told him, hey, my brother said, you, uh, come check out your office. Either be a hygienist or a dental assistant. Do something. Doctor Morales looked at me, and he just kind of laughed. He said, your brother told you like that? I said, yeah, you know, tough love. Tough love is what, uh, thankfully, got me here. So, um, Doctor Morales took me under his wing. I started off with just as every dental assistant doing sterilization and just kind of watching procedures. Next thing you know, some of his girls get pregnant, and you're right there on me. You're called up. So to another, I was just helping him out. He also at the time, we're from a very small town in the digital field where digital was like the last thing anyone expected to come out of there, but he had a imaging center, which he needed help running. So he said, hey, how about you run my imaging center? So I went ahead and I learned how to do CVC, TS, and then just how to do everything with the CBC, t machine taking panos, just that whole shebang. Let me back up a little bit. So where were you when all this? Like what state? I'm from Fresno, California. Oh, so this is California, and anybody can be an assistant. I'm always surprised by this, that you don't need any sort of schooling or certificate or. No. So that's the interesting part. Like, first I was just shadowing and then I enrolled into the dental assisting program, so I did. So you went through a program? Yeah. Oh yeah. Well okay. That's my program. So before you you did that, you had to go into a program. For how long? Um, it was an eight year program. I mean, an eight year. Oh, my god. Only. Right? Yeah, it was an eight one program. Right. And then it was two months of, uh, extern hours. Wow. So what does that mean? So once you're done, you have to do about 120 hours of, uh, like, being at an office, just learning how to do procedures or helping with procedures and just knowing how to take actual x rays. Because when you're doing the program, no one. Leaves. They're taking a good X-ray. I'll just be honest. Don't tell you about the real world. Look, like 20 times. So where'd you extern? At the same place you were already, correct? Yeah. So that was pretty easy, because I told them. I said, hey, you know, I'm very interested in, like, being good at this. And it looks like, honestly, I thought it was fun, which I still do. Only now is the lab side. Yeah. Of course, but, um, I truly enjoyed it. So I was just, uh, doing pretty much, like, an internship all the way till I needed my hours. Wow. Yeah. And that's when he said, hey, I got this expensive CBT machine. Come with me. Help, help! Yeah. Which led me on to the next part, which was awesome. Then we met Doctor Michael Shear. Yeah, Michael Shear, man. Mr. locator himself. Exactly. So then, um, you know, we took his course, we started doing surgical guides. So luckily, that whole, uh, knowing where landmarks were on, uh, you know, the nerve and just where bone is, they actually helped me because then I was a surgical guy. Well, I wasn't doing it, but I was pre setting it up. And then, you know, he just went reviewed it, gave me the green light and off to the printer the surgical guide went. So you did surgical guides for Doctor Michael Schur. No for Doctor Morales we took him. Oh he took shears I got confused, I was like, wow dude. All right. So you learned from shear and then you went and did them with your doctor, and he realized you were amazing. Yeah, but, you know, I was still new to this whole digital aspect. And, you know, I was just getting my feet wet when, um, Doctor Morales was like, hey, I want to invest more. And then he brought on a guy that you might know of, which is, uh, Fernando Polanco. Yep. Yes. Wow. So, so, I mean, I I'm telling you when I say I'm blessed, I've truly, God has given me quite the people to mention. Yep. Yeah. So then, um, Doctor Morales brought Fernando. Yeah. So he started working with you? Yeah, yeah. So that's pretty cool. Morales wanted to do more stuff in-house. So next thing you know, the guy from the Bay area that knew all the digital stuff came to our office, and he just said, hey, I'm going to need help. This imaging facility. Everyone now has panel machines, CB seats. How about we just put that to rest and let's just go in for an in-house lab? Wow. And you said hell yeah. I mean, actually, it was the opposite. I was like, okay, well, I still got my hours. I only want to work 32 hours a week. You know, the dental assistants have a pretty cush. Some of them, some of them 32 hours. Yeah. Which is funny, which goes to the next part. So I remember he brought Fernando on and it was around Lab Day West. So we ended up going Lab Day West. They go, hey, do you want to go to, uh, Anaheim? There's a little lab convention. You can meet people. You can see what the lab is all about. So I thought to myself, yeah, you know, easy little vacation. Yeah. There you go. These guys did not want to leave the place until ten at night. They were just talking to everyone and anyone. Mind you, this is when digital dentistry was really just coming into play. Yeah. So a lot of people had questions. Everyone was trying to figure it out. Oh my God. Seems a little late now. Yeah, yeah. I don't know who we were talking to, but I was just like, hey, I'm ready to go back to the room. Luckily, they came together with this, uh, digital workflow called Insta risa. Then more people came on the team, which another great mentor of mine is Doctor Jeff Bynum. He was one of the clinical instructors. And, um, he gave me more than just, uh, the clinical aspect. He actually started kind of guiding me like, hey, like, this is what actual aesthetics looks like. He was a little bit. Doctor Miles is very demanding. But Doctor Bynum, let's just say this guy's from the COI center, and he was an instructor mentor, and, uh, he really knows Doctor John Kreuz very well. Say no more difficult to work for them. No. They just have this certain way of doing things. Yes. Yes. There's a lot of very particularities that they have that if you don't do it that way, it's where we're doing the case. So how does it feel like working with doctors like that? Do you just kind of, like, meet them in their own and just be like, okay, this is what they expect and this is what I have to do. And then you do it. Or does it take a minute to get in their heads? You know, so being a dental assistant, that's all I know. Unfortunately, my goal was always pleased that the clinician, the doctor and you know, I have met some lab technicians throughout my small little career here that say, hey, you know, you need to tell the doctor, you need to tell them, like, hey, this isn't going to work. And I'm like, hey, he's the clinician and he knows better. That's my mentality. So I don't speak back much. Or at least I don't believe I do. I try not to say it's definitely a fine line that's hard to cross. And you got you really got to understand the relationship if you can cross it or not. And even I, who will gladly tell you when you're doing something wrong. Some doctors I don't. Just because I know it won't work. And. It won't help the situation. The lie and say shut up, Elvis. That happened to me once. And that's all it took for me to just say, like, hey, this might work. Hey. Yeah. Hey, man. You're you're paying the bill. And it's your malpractice that's on the insurance, not mine. However, I do have one doctor who I do tell no two. And I say, hey, this doctor showed me to do it this way. And that's my brother now because he's been practicing for some time. So I'll be like, hey, that's not how art we do it. That's not how Jeff would do it. Oh yeah. So when you set up this first in-office lab and then it was like digital in early, what did you start with? Yeah. So for the surgical guides, we started off with three shape. And I really liked doing them because, you know, it was very easy and I was just doing Crown and Bridge. Then Fernando came along and he brought in XO Cat and I was lost for, I don't know, six months. So Cat has so many features. And to add to it, um, the milling unit which we got and they came with its own cat software with zircons on which now I mean that that thing just holds my heart. Uh, we have one, my brother and I, and I just love the zircons on system. But I will say it's a bummer that. It's unfortunately a closed system here in America. Or at least we purchased it. Hmm. That's not true in other countries. No. So, um, I know some people here in the East Coast that have some ham ones, and they purchased them before they got into an agreement with another company. And they have open zirconia systems. They have everything open. But if you purchase it now, you'll have to purchase it through an implant company. Yeah. And they'll tell you that you have to use all those products. Yeah. Oh, that's too bad. I'm sorry about that because there's some systems out there that we love that you can't get Ahold of. I haven't heard that minute. Elvis and I talk to a lot of people, and most systems are open now. Yeah, yeah. Which, um, you know, it's still a little bit of a sore spot, but, um, we mostly do at my brother's office, which is the only place I do like, uh, Crown and Bridge and all on x4. We mostly do crown and bridge and cosmetic cases, so it works for that. But for all our necks, I do wish we had a little bit less expensive part. Oh, yeah, for sure. But there's something to be said about closed systems in the in the workflow. It's all verified and and it's just guaranteed to almost work every time rather than hodgepodge being eight different companies to put something together. No, definitely. And that's that's what I kind of sold my brother on. And anyone else speak to, it's like, okay, well, it's sort of like the sprint, right? Everyone likes sprint, right? Why? Because in short, layman's terms, it's, uh, it's dummy proofed. Oh, yeah, you can teach me how to utilize it. And that's why there are in clinical offices. Yeah. Which is exactly what gravitates toward clinical office, because they want a systems based practice so that they can, you know, if there's turnover, whatever the issue may be, they can go ahead and proceed on to what they need to do without a hiccup. Yeah. If you look at those sprint rate printers, it tells you exactly what you need to do. And when there's no doubt about it. And you know what? It works. So. Props to it. After that, all I did was zircons on. And now that I'm on my own, I actually just use nothing but exo cat because, um, it is a little bit easier and less expensive. So talk about being on your own. So what? What happened? You you were working for that doctor and just outgrew it. Or he created a company called Insta Risa. Oh my gosh, are you serious? Yes, I know that. Yeah. The face scanning company, right? Yeah. So, you know, it's funny because, um, if we if we speak to them and, uh, myself a little bit biased, it's not just a based company. It's a facially driven workflow. It's what we were. Oh, I like that facially driven workflow. It's nice. Yeah, but they have the face scanner. That's what I. Yeah, yeah. So, um, you know, in the beginning, we were using a facial scanner called the Arctic Spider, and it was from, um, a company from the Bay Area in San Francisco. And for now, they're introduced it to us. Resolution was extremely good. Predictability was really great. However, that thing back in 2008 was 40,000. Wow. That's expensive. Yeah, yeah, just to get so skin of a face. Right. So we were like, okay, well, Fernando thought, well, what other scanner can I look at? And that's where they came out with the Insta reset 3.0. Yeah, that's the new one that's out from them. Yes. Yeah. You were involved with kind of getting that whole workflow to work with zakat, and I was proof that anyone could learn it. So Fernando came up with it and then they were like, hey, dad, we're going to train you how to do it. And sure enough, um, computers came to me a little easy. So I went ahead and I helped them out. So what does that mean, helped him out? You just, like, went through the software and tried to get workarounds and figure out how to use it. Um, so more than anything, would it be sort of like that acquisition? Right. So you have the the cases. However, now you need to go ahead and show that this works. So we were doing cases where Doctor Morales was doing cases, and I would just be sort of like the if you want to call it like the data, um, the record taker. Sorry to say so. I always do inter oral scans, face scans, photos, the whole shebang, the whole workup before we would do a redesign. Okay, so how did you get implant placement? Were you doing photogrammetry or does. No. So um, we were using or. We. Yeah, they're still using that technique, but we were using um, what is called scanner. So it's where you put some sort of bite registration material which is their own proprietary called scanner. And then you would put the scan markers on. And in the beginning we were using the scan markers, but they noticed that, hey, this doesn't have quite the retention that we need in order to get the predictability that's needed. So then um, they came out with their own scan marker, which, if you look at it, it's a little unique design, but, you know, um, that was the what we feel was the initial part of, uh, initial oral scanning with some sort of breadcrumb trail to get passivity or implant position way over my material that this. What material did you use? I mean, it was like a movie. It's a it's almost like a blue mousse, but it has very special. Um. Oh my gosh, what is it called? Um, I'm blanking on the game. Sorry. No, it's just it's just the way it sets is different. And it sets. Believe it or not, it sets fast and it's really hard. And you did these between the scan bodies. Correct? Correct. So it gives you that connectivity the solid scan throughout the full arch. Yeah. Because you know with tissue. The thing about tissue it's it's mobile. It's shiny. And the scanner just didn't like to pick it up. And you mind you, this was what, um, 2008, 2009. Wow. Okay. Yeah. You're really a fair amount of go. Yep. Yeah. And this system is still around? Yeah. Yeah. Um, I believe it's still still on there. Yeah. No, definitely. So we lost you. So where were you at at this time? Um, at this time, I was still with Doctor Morales, and then, um, I didn't venture off until recently. This year, at the beginning of this year. So you've been with him for a while and just recently. Yeah. Yeah. You know, um, just like everything, um, we all need to grow through a little bit of changing in our lives. And, um, those early years, we were putting quite some hours in. Oh, yeah. And I just, you know. Yeah. I just thought maybe it was time to slow down a little bit. Uh, here I am now, doing my own thing, and I don't know what slowing down means. So what do you do? Yeah. So what I do now is, um, pretty much what I was doing for that company. Only now I do it for myself. So, um, I'll show doctors how to do digital, um, capture for implant position, whether they want to use photogrammetry. Um, how to get tissue. Pretty much just going from analog to digital with everything. And then, um, one of the big things is incorporating the face, which is a facial scanner. If they don't have a facial scanner, it's fine. Um, I'm good with 2D photos. So you're always recommending the designer having that face something picture or scan. Correct? Yeah. So one of the things that, um, both of Doctor Morales and Doctor Bynum showed me were, you know, there's a quote that Doctor John Cowie says, if it looks good in the face, it's because it's probably right. You know, it's it's the face that makes everything look right. You know. Sure. If. You can have the prettiest teeth, but if they don't look good in the face. I mean, look at Tom cruise, right? We all know that way off. So can you go through that with me? Like, how does it photograph the face and how do you use it in this software? Yeah. So, you know, um, there's a sequence of faces, right? Just like in everything, there's a sequence of faces that we'd like to capture, and it's all choice based. So for example, we'll get Duchenne, we'll get natural, we'll get shush and reboots, which is Emma or Emma. Um, people have different techniques, and then we just overlay them and then we now have lip positions as to. Okay, well, bone reduction and Duchenne. I need to go at least three millimeters apically. Right. So I'll go ahead and do use my Duchenne to get me that, uh, you know, ballpark. My, my, um, my bone reduction. Then I'll go ahead and get my incisal edge position from repose. You know, we want to go ahead and show one millimeter and a half to two millimeters of incisal position. Mhm. Exactly. And then, you know, just a natural smile to go ahead and see what it will look like when they give us that natural smile, because that's what everyone wants to do when they get a new set of teeth besides eating. Show them off. Yeah. And you won't believe it. It's it's unfortunate, but some people rather have aesthetics over functionality. Really? Yeah, they want to look good, but if they have to chew, they they just what? They don't really care. They're going to. It's all about looks interesting. Even a 50 year old patient, if you give them a one that's not bright enough. Yeah. Well yeah I deal with that. Yeah. Unbelievable. Unfortunately. Yeah. Yep. That's their one and one. What's this I want it white white white. Yellow. That's right. How do you have them get these photos? Is there, you know, patient sitting. Lean back up against the wall standing. You know, what is your protocol? Your your your protocol. Thank you. Yeah. So? So my own protocol. Um, you know, I've kind of had the opportunity to see how a lot of people capture them. Yeah, it's just being at the same level as the patient. Because if you're interested in looking forward, if you're looking down, you're not going to get a good picture. It's going to be either like I said, you're not going to be at a good focal point. You're either going to be looking down or looking up towards their nostrils, and that's not what you want. You want something that's straight on. So one of the techniques that was shown to me early on was have a mirror in the room when you're taking a picture. Why? Because what you'll do is you'll go ahead and have them look down. Have them look up. And then if they're looking themselves in the mirror, you know, most of the time when you look in the mirror, you want to look straight on. Mhm. And we've got a big footprint. Right. Like you'll kind of readjust yourself so that you're looking straight forward then to help with that. Like I mentioned a lot of this um, a lot of the things that were taught to me were through the course choice principles. Hey, what's wrong with that? Right? And I use these glasses. My favorite version are the clear ones. Like, I think it's maybe version three. Very easy to put on. If anything, you just glue on a little nose piece, you hold them on better. I find the new ones a little challenging to utilize. Maybe because I'm not a clinician. Whatever. Maybe. But I like the clear ones. So why challenging? What does it do? It has some, uh, flags on the sides. So like that, if the patient is looking too far up, too far down, you're seeing color. You're either seeing red or green, and you don't see what we do. Yeah. Got it. Exactly. It's kind of like a a bubble leveler. So they even have little bubbles on them. So like that you can see if they're canted. And you know, it also becomes more of a technique as well because, you know, you have to make sure okay, well maybe the nose isn't straight. So therefore I know I have to compensate. So don't don't pay attention to the bubbles. Just kind of trying to fall apart. Right. Hmm. I've never seen four glasses that help stabilize and, like, straighten the face, I love it. Yeah. I had no idea these things even existed. Mhm. What about lighting? Do you care about lighting? You know, I'm not too picky with lighting. I know a lot of people are. I'm not doing a lot of, like, uh, crazy shade matching cases. And for us as, like four mile three. Oh, yeah. So we have the opportunity to just be, like, all the teeth. So lighting isn't too, too crazy for me, but, you know, same as everyone. Just so the SLR, I however, I would use a ring flash, but, um, that was before. Now, um, my brother has a nice little camera that has the lights and the backdrop to two of the side of flash. Oh. Hold on. Take me back to your brother. What's your brother do? He's a dentist as well. So he's dental school quite some time ago, and he's been practicing for some time. And, um, like I said, I'm very lucky. My sister in law is also a dentist and her brother is a dentist, so I have lots of dentist membership going around me. Man that's amazing. So at Christmas party, that's what we speak about. Yeah, I was going to say. So you mentioned your brother. You didn't really mention that. So you're in with him and her and all your family. My brother and my. And my sister in law. Wow. So you do their work? Yes. Not all of it. Some of it. Uh, I'd say about 80, 90% of it. Oh, nice. That's a lot. And this still allows you to go out and teach other doctors. Yeah, yeah. You know, um, that's one thing about my brother, you know. He understands that, uh, I don't just want to be in the lab, which I think it's one of the things that separates, um, the new technician. You know, the new technician now has the ability capability of going to a practice and saying, hey, I can, uh, improve your flow or your, uh, your whole part of making your restorations so he understands that. And, you know, it's my passion. I really like being able to teach people excel CAD. And not only that, you know, besides teaching, sometimes you'll learn something when you're trying to teach. Oh, 100% for sure. And there's been instances where I go out and I, I'm like, oh, I do it this way. And then they're like, well, have you tried doing this? And it's just one small thing that can change your entire process. So what do they do? Do I mean, doctors say, hey, I'm ready to go digital, give you a call, and you just kind of have a chat with them? Yeah. You know, I'm just kind of. Okay, well, what type of cases are you looking to do? What do you want to bring in-house? How much of this do you want to bring in-house? And, you know, you just have to have that honest relationship and that honest call and tell them this isn't going to be the easiest thing. But if you do decide, well, this way, you know, it can be very beneficial. But in the beginning, it's going to be a lot of, uh, a lot of troubleshooting. You ever have a doctor call you that still developing film and they want to go digital and you're like, oh yeah. Fortunately, I have not. That has not been my case once yet. I have had some more, but not that. Are you ever at a point where you're just like, uh, no, you're not ready or oh point or it's not gonna work? And if so, how do you address that? Like, you just kind of coach them. You have to find the strongest player in the office, which luckily most practices have one. And that's who everyone feeds off of. Meaning the energy, the work ethic. If you have one that just goes above and beyond grabber and you know it's going to be practice, I bet you I can give you a list of a few offices that don't. That's what I was going to say. I've only been to one practice where I was like, okay, well, even the doctors having some trouble, I'm just gonna try my best and just call it a day, because there has been one where I just didn't know how to go about doing anything. It would be like, okay, well, we need to implement this. We need to go here and go. Uh, well, that's going to take too long. So tell me the barrier for you, though. So it sounds like you've got it going on, though, so you just kind of pivot a little bit. Yeah. You know, um. Nothing's perfect. Um, even ourselves. Right. So there's been instances where I'm like, okay, this is not going the direction I want. I'm struggling. I'm getting upset. I think it's starting to show. Let me pretend like I need to make a phone call or go to the restroom and go down. Right. Because that's that's they can go at it again. That's pretty smart, though. Honestly. Sounds like you've been through some therapy to me. Like I said, it's, uh, mentorship under the right people. Um, with doc, what's his offense? I know I had some incidents. I'm not going to say I'm perfect, but, um, I did have some incidents that helped me grow and mature, and he was gracious enough to, uh, you know, give me the second chance. Okay, well, you know, you can't talk to a patient like that. You can't talk to a call. You like that. You can't talk to anyone like that. Wow. That's awesome. How do you introduce offices to digital? What's your process? You know, you have to ask the number one question. Do you have an oral scanner? Number one question. I would say I would agree. Good call. Based on that oral scanner, you're gonna know where they're ready or not. If they have a cheap intra oral scanner that they're saying, hey, this works. It gets me. Crown and bridge. Great. Is that what you want to continue to do? No, I want to move into digital or I want to move into full arch. I hate to tell you, but that scanner is not going to cut it. Yeah. Now, before, you know, you would be telling them you need to purchase photogrammetry if you want to simplify your life and a good intra oral scanner. But now with, you know, the technology that's coming out there. I mean, look at that elite. That's one of the scanners that I recommend a lot. Yeah. Because it, you know, kills two birds with one stock. It's got photogrammetry in it. The shiny 3D elite. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, um, don't tell me you didn't know that, Elvis. Come on. I don't think I did. So that's the one that I. I tend to gravitate towards a lot, especially within the last six months. It's like, hey, you guys need to try this one. So talk about it a little bit, would you? So if. Yeah. How does it work for a scanner. And you were going to recommend The Elite. What what are the like positives and negatives about it. I've never heard of it by the way. In the beginning there was a lot of, you know, um. Holding back on it because for surgery records it was a bit of a pain and a headache. But from what I understand, I haven't used it for surgery in quite some time, but when I did get to use it, the stitching wasn't predictable and there was a workaround you had to do so. You know you normally go, you get your pre-operative scan with your fiduciary marker, right? Yep. You correlate that to your pre design. If you don't have a pre design into the world you still correlate that to the beginning right. Yep. Then you go ahead and you remove your teeth. You have your plastique place implants place mois suture everything back up. Yep. Okay. So how are we going to get that without a fiduciary marker if it's not laying a scan? Because, you know, at the day of surgery, there's heme everywhere. There's saliva. The patient wants to close. It's just a nightmare, right? Oh, yeah. If they're not IV fully sedated, the stitching just wasn't stitching how everyone wanted it and hoped to. So when you were getting your implant position to that scan, it was just like, okay, well, I'm having to do this manually. What's the purpose of it? Like, yeah, I'm getting them a implant position. But you guys were telling me that everything aligns because that's one of the key things, right? We want to save time on the alignment process. Yeah, yeah. So if everything comes in in alignment, then it's a game changer, which now to my understanding, it does come that way. So you can have your whether it's your day of surgery or you know you're going to a prototype trying. Everything comes aligned. You just export the files, bring it into zakat, and you can start working. How many scans do you have to do? Just one. It's a series of three scans. If I'm recalling correctly, whether it's your, um, pre-op or your hybrid in the mouth. Yeah. Then your in caps and your scan marker or your scan flag, which is the, uh, I believe they call them the PPG markers. So you still don't use it outside of the mouth like you do photogrammetry. It's all intra oral scanning. Correct? Correct. Okay. Yeah. So it's kind of like any grandma tree system, I guess. Yeah. What's the difference between photogrammetry and grammar tree, y'all. And do you want to take it. Yeah. So one is just. And I could be wrong. I'm. I might be misquoting a bit. You know, your photogrammetry is actual coordinates that are being provided by the extra oral use of the camera. And then with the grammar tree, it's more of landmarks. Okay, okay. There's landmarks on this marker and it's going to do its best to stitch everything together. But from my understanding that lead scanner has both, if I'm not mistaken, I could be wrong. That's interesting. Yeah, I mean, I've always thought of it as photogrammetry as a picture outside the mouth picking up landmarks. Gramma tree is using your intra oral scanner to scan the same landmarks, but you're it's done inside the mouth like a scan. Is that right? Tell me it's wrong, would you? I'm not asking for help. You're just saying you could be wrong. Would you? For once, he's right. So I'm going to go with you. All right. Sorry. It then. No, it makes me understand. Thank you. Yeah. I'm not the implant guru of this podcast. You are. Are you only helping doctors get into full arch? Or what about those doctors who just want to go digital but have no desire to even place implants? Is that a thing? Um. You know it is. But just from what I experience, the cosmetic dentist, they prefer full spastic restorations, and zirconia to them isn't appealing. So for them, a digital maybe, like for a, um, a wax up, which then they do a model, but they still want to do, you know, they like the hands on part. They like putting in their own artistic sense into their work. So there are people who do want to do it, but then it's, um, it's a little bit challenging because they rather just get the wax up and just end it there. They'll get to, like, salts baths still. Jesus. We're okay. Yeah. You know, you get a lot of the cosmetic ones. California, man. It just has better translucency, you know? So you've got labs out there that are still doing feldspars. I'm from what I understand. Yes. Okay. I'm sure somebody out there that I never learned to do. So I don't like. As soon as they tell me, just provide me wax up. Yeah, yeah. I'm not being negative about it. I think it's pretty awesome. Okay, cool. Yeah. And then what do you do? Teach these offices? Exocrine. Yeah. So, for example, I'm here in Virginia, Alexandria, and, um, it's a clinician I met, and he liked some of my work, and he wants to bring stuff in-house. And he feels like the next step. Okay. They're doing the digital workflow. His next step is now learning how to do zakat. So he has his whole team. Entire team. Today, Friday and tomorrow Saturday. And we're going through the whole design portion. So how do you teach them A to Z. Like what do you do? How does your course go till you're with it a little bit right. Yeah. So that was one of the things that I did mention to him. I said, hey, you know, this might be more than a one time thing, but if you have someone in there who's pretty tech savvy and they're already designing at least your crown and bridge, then yeah, we can go ahead and do it. But if not, then it's going to be a long way over there. Video. Yeah, exactly. Were they already doing like cerec crowns or something? And that's I mean, they at least had their toe dipped into the design aspect of it. Correct. Yeah. So you know, a lot of people have their printers now. So they'll do their provisional design on zakat or zircons on, and then they'll go ahead and take it to the printer. And then they'll just send it out to be finalized, whether it's iMacs or. Zirconia or false path or whatever direction they want to go in. Normally these courses, what I try to do is, you know, um, at least always start with the first step, which is your pre design, because once you do the heavy lifting of the pre design, if you have a decent workflow and you know you stick to it, that pre design is going to carry the weight of the entire process. Ah you're talking full arch again right. Whether it's full arch or like say full arch crown and bridge you know that that pre design is going to be the one, the pre design or the design that the patient is happy with in the mouth. Kind of like their mock up. Yeah. And instead of in their mouth they're looking at it on the computer. So you're taking pictures of the patient doing that mock up, putting that mock up into that picture, showing it to them, getting a thumbs up. And then you're, you know, you're good to go. Exactly. Now we have a surgery day coordinated and doctor preps places implants. Yep. Um, extracts, teeth, the whole shebang, whatever they need to do. And now from the day of surgery to the pre design, then you got to let them heal, you know, for, um, chronic bridge is a little bit more streamlined because then you can just go ahead okay. Hey wear them. You're happy with this. No. What do you want to change. All right. Let's make those modifications. You want to wear them or you just want to go to final two? Most patients want to wear them. Or do most patients want to go to final? Or doctors know if they are a very picky patient, they're going to say, let me try them in. I want to see like in base with the shade. And, you know, it's that that battle again of okay, well keep in mind these are temporary. These are not the final shade. We can always make them brighter. We can change this, that make them a little bit more translucent. But you know, it sometimes works against us when we're. Yeah. And they're it doesn't always work either. I had a patient go through two sets of temps, got the thumbs up and went to final, and she called a week later saying it wasn't right. And I said it's. The exact same thing you loved last week. That's the most bizarre thing, right? It's like it's the exact same thing. But just because it's a different material, you're gonna say, hey, I want something else. It's suddenly teeth were angled in her mouth and I'm like, they aren't. And it was just crazy. And especially for full mouth rehab cases. Like, for all I know, it's they go from no teeth or broken teeth to having something decent in their mouth or something that looks good to hey, I don't like it. Fix this little part here. Yeah, it's like you went from a horror show to the most beautiful thing. And you don't like it. Interesting. Yeah, but at the same part, you know, they did spend a lot of money, and, uh, I'd be a little picky, too. So. Very true. I find I want to kill them sometimes when I'm the third and fourth time, I'm like, what is your problem? Like, I don't understand it. And you try to get in their heads and figure it out and make the adjustments, but sometimes they're just crazy. Sorry, but, you know, you run into those people that are pathologically crazy. Not like Elvis, but no, of course not. So do you teach these offices about these issues they're going to run into when they start doing full arch? I mean, what used to be, hey, lab, change this and redo it. Hey, lab, change this and redo it. Now they're doing it themselves. You will not believe when I tell you that you know certain offices that hold themselves up to, um, you know, the excellence factor. Yeah, they'll keep it that way. But some labs or some offices, once they start doing things in-house. When they used to complain about my designs. And then I look at the stuff that they sometimes asked me to accomplish for them, I'm like, and you guys said something about my design. I always say that. I said they would never accept that from the lab, and yet they're throwing them in the mouth, designing a million in themselves and they look like shit. Sorry, but it's true. Yeah. They have a lower level. It's easy to be pickier of other people's work. Well it is. Plus, when you could ask for a remake and it's not your dime, it's a little easier that I think that's the biggest thing as well. You know, when we were doing things in house, it was just like, oh, you know, just grab another puck, we'll remake it. But then, you know, you go on to your own thing and it's a little bit hurtful now. It's like, remake it. No, What's what's wrong with it? Like, tell me what is wrong with it? Because I do not want to spend another cent on this case that we redid twice for. I don't know what the reason is when they all look the same to me. So true. It's funny, I work with a lot of offices that just got the sprint ready work workflow, and they get the tough on what's it called all on tougher. Oh yes. Yes fax or whatever. They're yeah they get this this bottle of resin and at first you print something and they're like, I'm going to print two just in case or yeah, I'm going to change this and then print another one. But the second they have to order a new bottle, suddenly they're real stingy on it. Yeah. They suddenly learned that, wow, this stuff's expensive. And I'm not going to print everything twice anymore in this area. But, you know, it's just part of a which is, you know, it's funny, I was I was speaking with some colleagues about that, and we were just talking about how people say printing is the future of dentistry, right? Now I have to disagree with that. Oh, you know the cost of the resin bottles. It's crazy now. It's it's crazy. I remember when we first came out, it was a bigger bottle filled at least 90% all the way up. And there was for something. It was a little under $500. Now it's at what, 800 $900 for all of that? Smaller with less. You see, it bottle is so small. Only this was supposed to compete with me. Yeah, they even sell you a special tray so you don't use as much. And then see those things, it's like. Oh, well, now they have a little cartridge. Oh, well, now they have all these nuances that, I don't know, maybe they, they, they do speed up the process. Maybe they don't. But it's just like I said, it kind of makes printing not so fun. So what sort of things do you run into when you go to these offices and get them into digital? I mean, are they off for it? Do they struggle with some things? A lot of it has to do with, like I said, having that one person who's going to guide him or at least keep things on, it's hard to put all that weight on one of them. I was going to say, you know what I'm saying? That's very small, especially the turnover. Yeah. That happened. That was going to be my next thing. I had, uh, one doctor that I was working with, and it broke my heart when they said, hey, this person's leaving in July. And I was just like, oh no, what are my is going to look like? Yeah. What the record's going to look like. Are they still going to look the same? Um, so do you go back in and train when that happens, they get a new person and you go back in and be like, okay. Let's go back through it. We train through that. We have, uh, conversations. You know, uh, FaceTime g. G, uh, Google Meet, the whole shebang. Unfortunately, sometimes it is necessary to go back. I was thinking that. I was wondering that. So you've got to train them from the very beginning and bring them all the way through. So do people that you've trained. They go on to other clinicians, that kind of stuff. You won't believe that some of them just leave dentistry. I would be very excited. What are you doing to a man? Yeah. I thought I was helping him, but apparently, yeah, I made their workload more. Which that does happen. You know, there's some, uh. That's actually one of the worst things that has happened to me. It's, you know, you go in, you show them, and then all of a sudden you say, or you hear them say in the background and they think, you know, you're not listening, or that you're not going to have an opinion about it, you know, oh, well, who's going to do all this work? It's cool that you're doing it. Who's going to do it when you're right? Yeah. Who's gonna who's going to implement this? You know, one of the big things is I don't get paid enough. Yeah, yeah, I hear that a lot, to be honest with you. Dental technicians also mostly. Well, of course, yeah, but a lot of assistance. If you bring in a whole new digital workflow where all of a sudden they're manufacturing. I've had a few of them say, you know, I didn't get into this to, oh yeah, run a printer, you know, and babysit a printer or whatever they say. I mean, it's a lot, which leads to a good a good point, you know? Um, and it's not necessarily a point, but it's, it's the discussion of how many doctors bring in a digital workflow. And they go in all in thinking it's going to be all return capital. Yeah. And then, you know, not even a year later and they're getting rid of their mill. They're getting rid of their printer. They're going back to the lab. Why? Because the lab is dependable or a designer, which is what a lot of people like myself. Often it's like, okay, well, you have a printer, you have a mill, okay, I can do your designs, but who's going to finish them for you? And next thing you know, I'm in collaboration with the with the lab, and I'll do all of their designs. And then we send it off to the lab, and the lab just finishes it. But it's a big responsibility on the clinician's part. You know, they wanted to become a dentist because they didn't want to be. Had a job full time, right? Right. Yeah. Most Christians work Monday through Thursday. Yeah. When they're taking on that in-house lab responsibility, it's like, oh my gosh, the patient broke their hybrid. I can't just tell the lab, hey, remake me another one. I gotta tell my team now. I gotta pay for overhead. Now I have a person that wants to leave the office because now they're like we said, they don't want that responsibility. And then it becomes an issue of shared responsibility when something doesn't go right. I'm noticing this. Like they send the records, we do the design, they print, and let's say it doesn't fit well. Where's the error? You know, we all had hands in this pot and you got to troubleshoot it and it makes it a little harder actually. It makes it really challenging. But you know, um, I've learned now to kind of it comes off a little different when we just right away like, hey, it wasn't me. So now what I'll do is, okay, well, do me a favor. Take a scan of your, uh, printed hybrid, and then I'll bring it into zakat, and I can show you if it's deviation on the print, which 80% of the time we see that deviation wire, they're either overcooking it or under cooking it. And the hybrid is not even the same as what we have on the design. Wow. That's a great idea. So what do you scan? The whole hybrid. Just 360, the whole thing and then just line it up. Yeah. You can either put, you know, some of those reverse scan bodies and then you can bring back into your implant position or you can just, you know, scan it in the mouth, which the one in the mouth works sometimes. But if it's day of surgery, you're going to see that big discrepancy, which is one of the reasons why, you know, I like using photogrammetry because at least like that, I know, okay, it's going to be 10% of the time when it's the photogrammetry. Maybe they didn't put the scan marker all the way down, but at least that gives me peace of mind when I'm using photogrammetry. I don't have to worry about the scan marker position. So more than likely, have you used some of the other systems, the photogrammetry? Do you have favorites ones you like working with? So one of my doctors, she's super awesome. Her name is Doctor Mary Oliveri. She's in new Jersey. I've heard her. She actually Grammy for sure. And you're all over the place. You know, it's funny, most of the clinicians that I work with are here in the East Coast and I'm in the West Coast, so I feel like I need to move here, but, um, no. So she's very awesome and she actually still has the Grammy version. I know it's now twofold, but the thing I like about that guy is just, um, you know, it gives you the implant positions whether you take 1 or 2. It gives you the implant position all in the same orientation. So if you're taking multiple scans for whatever reason, say you're putting some cherries and you have to go very far posterior and some of them are in your way, it exports them in the same position. So I don't have to worry about, oh, I have to find this one or this one. And then hopefully it aligns well. Interesting. Is that the one from blue Sky bio? Yeah. And that's the thing that I was going to say. You know it's very inexpensive. So I feel like that's like a no brainer. Just like the um, the elite scanner because it's A211. But the other one that I do like is um, the one from, uh, from Sam the Micro mapper. Yeah. That's the one I like. You know, same thing. You get your implant position, you can use those scan posts to get your tissue scan as well. However, I will say that one, um, it depends on who's scanning. I had some offices that say I can't get this scan, I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, and I'm trying to guide them. And you know, it's surgery and they're panicking. It's not a good time. It definitely takes a good eye to line them up. Yeah, I had a surgery where it took us a good eight minutes to scan and then the next arch we did, it took four seconds and you're like, huh? Exactly. And you know, it's mostly on the lower every, every challenge I've seen, it's always on the lower. Oh that's that's photogrammetry or not photogrammetry. That's just life. Why? Yeah, lower is just, uh, it's something else. Less landmarks. Barb, you don't have that palette. And the crew guy and got it. The tongue's not there. And it's just. I mean, if I have an upper, I sweat less. Yeah, exactly. How do you guys feel about these, uh, new workflows with the CBCS? I have yet to experience it. So, what is it, a CBT with the scan flags in? Yeah. So, you know, there's multiple ways of doing it, but it's pretty much you're aligning a preoperative, uh, CBT to a day of surgery CBT. So when the patient is flapped and groggy, you're standing them up and getting them to a CBT machine. Yeah. Or, you know, you have them laid there and, um, you know, there's a people out there that have a mobile CBT machine which still just have the patient in the same position that they're in, IV sedated, knocked out, and they'll just go ahead and have the machine rotate around the patient. So you no longer need to bring the patient through the CDC machine. I'd love to see that. I'd love to do a case like that. But no, I don't think that technology has reached Indiana yet. You know, it's cool, but I did have some people ask me because I, you know, I mentioned a lot of things and then they're all, yeah. Is that second exposure radiation really needed? Really. They say that they. Yeah, they asked me and I'm just like, well, I'm not a clinician. I can't answer that question. Wow. But I mean, when you automatically say, yeah, we need those, we need them. Yes. Right. That's interesting. What is it? The, uh, bought green. It has such a big capture and so fast that they say it's less radiation than being outside. That's interesting. So yeah, I think it's just verbiage and what everyone thinks. Right. Because at the end of the day, it's the patient who I'm okay with it. I'm not okay with it. Just like the clinician. Yeah. Yeah. We're not going to go that route. So I'm off as I go into. So as you can get more radiation from eating a banana than you can lunch, right? Yeah. And I'm like and like, people just freak out about it. And those are the same people who think we're getting cancer from our cell phones. So our brain. Yeah. Brain. I guess you're right. That's true. Yeah. I've never heard that. So. Yeah. So how do offices usually find you? Is it just Instagram or Instagram or, you know, word of mouth or. Um, I did meet quite a bit of people through Insta. Risa. You know, they'll be like, hey, remember me? I met you at Insta wrist. And I was like, oh, yeah. Have you been? And then, you know, one thing gets going to the next and then we just kind of start talking and they'll tell their friends. Or whether it's from the Coy Center, they knew Doctor Jeff Bynum and Doctor Jeff Bynum puts me in communication with them. Nice. It's just, you know, I'm lucky to have a good, uh, group that I've associated myself with. So are you. Do you get referrals basically from choice or are you with a company or how is your necessarily from the COI center themselves? But like from people from the COI center because, you know, just like everywhere, it's it's a group of clinicians and they'll say, well which lab are you using? Or oh, who are you using for your practice? Yeah. Well, yeah, this is my guy. Just contact and I'm sure made referrals a. That's pretty awesome. Good for you. And then they say we want to do this ourselves. Which like I said, a lot of the time, once I once I'm out there, they'll say, hey, this is going to take me some time. Can you go ahead and do my design? Yeah, of course I of course I'm here for you. Do you sell the products or do you just say, this is what I recommend getting correct? I don't have any sort of affiliation with any reselling or anything. It's just like what I feel was best. I'll recommend. And then the doctor will either listen to me or say, hey, I learned that, or I heard that this product is better than the one you're saying. And I'm like, okay, yeah, let's go with that one. And then they'll ask the question, do you know how to use it? Or, you know, you can help me with it, I'll do my loop, I can. I think that's really unique in what you do here because, you know, you're you're not the only person that a technician that goes into offices to teach them how to do so, but they usually try to sell them the equipment. Right. You seem very unbiased towards what they have and what they want to use. And I think that's kind of unique. I'm thinking, yeah, you know, um, I kind of just like working with a lot of things because, you know, it doesn't help to be A11 show pony or a one trick. Yeah. Okay. Well, you only know how to use photogrammetry. Okay, well, I don't have photogrammetry. How are you gonna help me, then? You know, you gotta have a way to help people. And not only people, but, you know, sometimes there's the patient. The patient does come in the back of the head of. Okay, well, you know, it sucks they can't get it right. So how what am I going to do? Or how can I have a positive influence in making this code in the right direction? And I love that Fernando showed me that early on. You know, before I met Fernando, I was actually very, like close minded. And this guy, I mean, I'm not sure if you guys have spoken to him or if you guys have met him. Yeah. Yeah. He's. Oh, yeah. Well, have you tried doing this? Oh, I have tried doing that. And he just goes like on and on and just thinking, which I don't know if I'll ever be that open minded, but, you know, I like to think that one day I'll get well. Yeah. Awesome. Well, it seems like you're doing a good thing. Yeah, it seems like you're out there teaching them the good way and the right way to do things. Thank you. Yep. Still offering lab services, too, which has gotta keep you pretty busy. Yeah? Yeah. Well, awesome. Ed, we appreciate you coming on the podcast. And, uh, what's the best way for if someone listening to this wants to get Ahold of you? Yeah. You know, um, more than anything, I'm a I'm a big, uh, Instagram social media guy. Sure. I get a message on my, uh, on my Instagram. I go ahead and I, uh, respond fairly quickly on there. Yeah. Cool. So what's your Instagram name? Because it's usually not just people's names. Yeah. Yeah. So like I said, um, I'm always in the East Coast, but, um, I was one time with the group in Florida and they were like, hey, you should be West Coast editor. So I ended up switching my Instagram name from my actual personal name to West Coast editor. That's Ed 77. Yeah. 77. Awesome, man. Super. I have a feeling you're going to be busy, huh? All right. The dog say it's over. So happy. Hey. All right. Thank you so much. All right. And we appreciate you. Yeah. Thank you. Talk to you real soon. All right. Thank you for having me on. Thank you. A huge thanks to editor for coming on our podcast to talk about your journey to helping Dennis go digital. I don't think Elvis and I have heard a story like yours yet, so it used to be easy to go digital, just get a scanner. But now it's so much more. And who better to learn from than a dental technician? Damn straight everybody. Go follow Ed on Instagram at West Coast Ed 77. Is that right? West coast editor or West Coast ed? Its editor with two D's. Okay, everyone, go to follow Ed on Instagram at West Coast Ed 77 with Toodles and see some of the cool things he is showing Dennis. Because if your lab doesn't know what to do with a face scan, you might be missing out on work. Guys. Yeah, a lot of people are starting to get into it. And if you don't accept it. Mhm. Just do it. All right everybody. Well I hope everybody has a great week. Have a good week. Yep. See you all next week. Have a good one. All right. Okay. Well you know lie from the bed. Exactly. The views and opinions expressed on the voices from the bench podcast are those of the guest, and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the host or voices from the bench, LLC.