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So Barb, an overdue congratulations are in order.
Oh my God. What did I do now, Elvis?
Didn't you all recently announce the Simply Arch studio?
Yes, we did.
That's awesome. You know that's right up my alley there.
Of course I do, yeah.
And just for anyone who hasn't seen the announcement, what is this Simply Arch thing?
All right, so Simply Arch is our dedicated full Arch lab. So it's high quality. Full Arch cases are a big big part of what we do. And we wanted a team and a dedicated workflow and a production environment built specifically around them.
So basically just no distractions.
Exactly. Just a bunch of full arch nerds doing full arch things.
Oh God, a bunch of nerds sounds terrifying.
It's never terrifying of us.
And does a new studio also mean new toys?
Yes. And of course, we recently brought in Xterra mill as part of the project.
Hell yeah, nice.
Yeah, and then of course came the cam decision.
Ah, here we go, the old cam decision.
You know, Elvis, we tested a couple options and of course we landed on Hyperdent.
Like Hyperdent, just as easy as that, huh?
As easy as that, pretty much. The quality off the machine was excellent. So that means also no hand finishing and the mill Milling times were excellent also.
You're right. That does make the decision quite easy.
But honestly, what really stood out to us was the testing and implementation process.
How so?
You could immediately tell these guys live in a world of high, complex milling challenges.
That's got to build a lot of confidence.
You know what? It really did, and it really does. They weren't just showing us how the software works. They were advising us on the best way to build an entire workflow for our lab. You could tell they've done it a hundred times, guys.
That's a whole new different level of expertise. Well, congratulations on the new studio, Barb.
Thank you. Hats off to my dad for the studio. So it means a lot to me.
Aw. Welcome to Voices from the Bench, a dental laboratory podcast. Send us an e-mail at info at voicesfromthebench.com and follow us on Facebook and Instagram. Greetings and welcome to episode 432 of Voices from the Bench. My name is Elvis.
Oh, wow. That was pretty funky. My name's Barbara.
Yeah, you like that? Yeah.
I did, actually. You sounded like a cow, sort of.
Did you say a cow?
Yeah.
Not what I was going for, but I guess I'll take it. So what's up? Last week you said you had no plans for the 4th. Everybody was gone. And then I text you and you're like, I'm on a boat.
Oh, I did. I went out on a boat, but only until like 2.30. I'm so freaking fried. But at the end of the day, last night, I watched Michael Jackson. That's the best movie. Any of you guys?
Oh, the Michael movie. I totally want to see it.
Oh my God, it's so good.
Yeah.
And I went to bed at like 9. So yeah.
Oh, nice.
I'm still bored. What about you?
Well, actually, first time in the apartments for July 4th, there were fireworks I could just see while laying on my couch. It was pretty nice. I mean, it wasn't anything like downtown big, but it really appealed to my laziness.
Yeah, you don't have to move and you can see it.
Anyways, don't have to deal with traffic, people, nothing. Everything's right there.
That was my point.
I barely had to turn my head.
Yes, I'm with you. I'm a low maintenance kind of 4th of July girl, but I everywhere I went, even on my run yesterday, every day I had a ******* 4th of July shirt on. Like even like walking hats, shirts. It was pretty spectacular. I thought it was cool.
Did you do the morning after run where you see everyone spent fireworks all over the neighborhood?
Yes, actually I did.
They were everywhere this morning.
So.
Yeah, let's get to it.
All right.
So this week, we actually get to talk to the guy who went from weightlessness to dental, Felix Chung. Most of us know about Imagine USA. Most of us actually don't know about the amazing story behind it. You see, Felix wanted to be an astronaut, but luckily for our industry, he had an uncle that owned a dental lab. And at just the right time, Felix saw an opportunity to support other labs with abutments and bars. And 15 years ago, eye milling opened.
Nice.
But what happened over the course of that time? Felix realized that hiring good people and paying their worth will pay off in the long run for the success of everybody. So he went about developing the mist implant components becoming OEM for Keystone, and is soon to be launching a new implant in America called SIC. So join us as we chat with Felix Chung. Voices from the bench. The Interview. So many of you have heard for about 8 weeks we played an ad where we met this gentleman in Spain, Felix, and finally we have him on. Yay! Felix Chung, welcome to the podcast. How are you?
Yeah, I'm great. I'm great. Excited to be on here. And it was, again, great meeting you guys in Spain. And I know we're not face to face, but again, nice talking with you guys again. So looking forward to it. Yeah, we're happy to have you.
Yeah, it was really great just to meet you, but to finally hear the story of Imagine and your journey, because I know it's pretty long in this industry. Tell us your story. How'd you get into it?
Yeah, well, Imagine is we're celebrating our 15 year anniversary this year.
Congratulations.
Thank you, thank you. The business we started in 2011 and I really didn't know I was gonna be in the Dell industry. So when I was young, I had a dream of becoming an astronaut, actually.
Oh, we've never heard that.
How young?
How young? At 6, we all wanted to be astronauts.
And I was very serious about it, you know? Oh, really? Yeah, I actually went to Georgia. I kind of did, yeah. So I actually went during college. So I ended up going to Georgia Tech, majored in aerospace engineering. was very passionate about. I was very serious. And then I interned at NASA for a good couple months and did research at NASA. One of the research was... Funny enough, is how big your head gets when you go into space. So when you're in space and 0 gravity, actually, your head becomes slightly bigger because all the blood flow goes to your head. Yeah, all the blood flow.
Your pelvis does not need to go to space. Oh, shut up.
How do they measure that? I mean, do they like...
So we shaved our heads. We shaved our heads. So we were actually doing the research and we were the test dummies as well. So it was about four of us guys. And we shaved our heads for this research for NASA. Did you go in space? So cool story there. We didn't go in space. It was actually a plane that NASA owns. It's A Boeing, I think it's a 747, and it actually mimics 0 gravity on the Boeing jet. And it goes up and down. And as you're going up and down, you actually experience your gravity. And that's where we did this. And we did this. Yeah, I did this in college.
Awesome. How big your head get?
It's in millimeters. So it's in dental measurements in millimeters. So not very much, but it's- A millimeter.
Is a lot in the mouth.
Yeah, significant enough to where we have to research this. Like, is this a danger? This is like for a prolonged period of time, like how does this affect the human body? So It was very serious research that we did to where we have real data to a point where we were published, but it started the conversation, right? That's pretty awesome, I love it. So, and we were just college students, so we didn't have like the proper accreditation to be published, but I just thought I'd share the cool story 'cause it's-.
No, I think it's fascinating, I've never talked to anybody that experience weightlessness. I mean, this is awesome as one thinks it is.
It is awesome as what you think it is. We got in a pyramid, so we had about 20 of us on top of this one guy doing push-ups just to show how cool this is. So we took a big hand.
Oh, I love it. So neat.
Yeah, So it was wild. It was wild. It was a bunch of college students experiencing the old gravity. So I guess definitely experience of a lifetime. For sure. So what happened?
How did you?
That's what I did.
How did you go from that to dental?
Yeah, yeah. And then funny story, I had an uncle that owned a dental lab. And when I worked for him.
We've heard that time and time again. Sorry to interrupt you, but that's pretty spectacular.
Of course. Yeah. And then I worked for him during when I was in high school, during my summer breaks. And I hated it. was the worst job at that time. Oh, that's hilarious. I was working in the model room and I was trimming models. And it was, not the most fun job. Yeah. So, but again, it was my uncle. And then when I graduated college, I couldn't find a job. So I talked to him like, hey, can I work here part-time until I can get a real job? That's kind of how I worded it. Oh, wow. But that's what, that was, you know, 18 years ago. So to be fair, different mindset, but back then, but back then, that was my experience into the dental lab industry. I wasn't really looking forward to it, but then when I got into it, I actually ended up really loving it. And I stayed. So my uncle, when I joined his company after I graduated college, he built his lab up to where he was the biggest lab in the Northern Virginia area. Oh, wow. You might, a lot of people might know him. It's a Pro Tech Dental Studio. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So he's still around today. That's awesome. He's still around today. Yeah, he's my uncle. And we actually, when I started working for him, He didn't know where I was going to end up, but with, I guess, what I came out of college for, or however you want to put it, he was just like, hey, why don't you try this new scanner I got? And this new scanner at that time was 3Shape. And as you guys know how much 3Shape has changed the industry, right? In terms of digital dentistry. But at that time, it like just came out. And it was like between dental wings and 3Shape and getting there.
But that was like right up your aerospace alley. Like.
That was cool. It was up there. It was up there for sure. And he was just like, hey, play around with it and try to figure out what I need to do with this thing.
Are you glad you went through a 3Shape and not dental wings?
Absolutely. Nothing against that wings. But sometimes you get lucky in life. And I got to say, 3Shape changed my life. So when I got into the software and the scanner, and I was just like, okay, well, what do you guys do right now in the lab? And they told us one thing that they did was they casted custom abutments. And I was like, hey. instead of that, let me just try to see what I can do with Three Shape. And I actually connected Three Shape. And at that time, there weren't many outsourcing centers that were pretty affordable.
You might have been like one of the first people to do that.
Yeah, this was 18 years ago. This was 18 years ago. And we started sending out of office.
I got asked, so you just wrapped your head around that and said, I think this is scannable. Like, how did you even know it might work? Or you were just like, screw it.
I'm going to try. I just researched it online. At that time, you had Google, and Google, again, was doing pretty well. And just did a ton of research. and find out that Glidewell was actually accepting outsourced designs for them to know only. And it was called prismatic back in the day, prismatic custom abutments. And then I started sending a few over there and then showed it to my uncle. And he's like, okay, this is pretty cool. How much did I pay for this? even better. Send a few more out, and then... How much time did?
I spend on this.
Even better? Even better.
Well, I like the fact that he was supportive of you. And he was just like, go for it, man.
Yeah, he was, absolutely. And then started doing that and... I just got this crazy idea at that time. Hey, why don't I make a business out of this and start selling this to other laboratories? Because maybe some other labs want to do what I'm doing, but they just don't know how to do it yet. And why don't we go crazy and not just do custom abutments, but do these titanium bars that I hear about that I can sell for $800? So that's how I started the business. And I needed my uncle and I was like, hey, let's go 50-50 in on it and started the business that way. And at that time it was called iMilling. So it was Imagine Milling Technologies. We just branded it as iMilling. And we started as a milling center that did custom implant prosthetics. So that's how we started.
You were only doing them for other labs, right?
We're only doing them other labs. We still do that today, actually, in our milling center. We have labs that outsource to us. We've rebranded as Imagine now, because we started doing another thing. Yep, and we started doing other stuff, but... When we first started, it was iMilling, and it was inside my uncle's laboratory. And that's how I started the business.
And who else was around? I mean, was Atlantis doing it at that time? Was Procera, who were the big players when you started? Or were there any players?
I mean, nobody.
It's a great question. So there weren't a lot. There's a handful. And we, at that time, bars, titanium bars was really kind of the business I was interested in. And the biggest player at that time was Procera. And there was Procera. And I don't know if people do a lot of business with this company, but BellaTech from 3i. Oh yeah, I remember that name. I was also around as well. So bars went for like $2,000 back then. So you have to pay. Yeah, so it was quite expensive. So my philosophy was, I can still make a ton of money selling it for 1,000. So I was like, hey, instead of 2,000, you can send it to iMilling for 1,000. And we were very known for bars. And so there weren't a lot of places besides Procero and Bellatech they could send for bars. Yeah.
So at that time, they scanned? Like what was the workflow?
So it was almost 100% they would have to send the model to us. They would send the model. We would scan it in three shape. And it was, no offense against 3Shape, but it wasn't meant for bars back then. So we were struggling.
It wasn't even a module to do bars at this time.
It was, we were one of the few people. And by that time with Glidewell, we sent so many abutments to Glidewell. I personally got invited to go out there and they'll show us the whole facility because we did so many abutments. I don't know how many people are sending anything, but I don't think there was that many. And they were just like, what is this company in Protech sending us There's a ton of abutments, you know.
Yeah, let's wine them and dine them.
Yeah, So, but there wasn't a lot, but I think the biggest competitors that were really trying to do what we're doing. And I think, I don't know if you guys know these companies, there was KGenics.
Oh, I know KGenics, yeah.
Yep, so they kind of were around when I was around. Yeah. And then there was a couple other smaller milling centers out there. So those were really the competition that we had.
So you slayed it.
Yeah, we went out and we killed it. Yeah. So we did very well there. So that's how the business started. It was just primary focus on bars. We did custom abutments as well, but I don't know, a lot of people wanted to outsource custom abutments right away. It wasn't taking off that much. It was like third party.
It was hard to take off. I mean, everyone wanted to stay OEM for a long time.
That's true. So that was very hard for Labs to get around, you know, 18, 17 years ago.
Sure, I bet.
You know, these compatible connections, right? And it's taken off now. We have a big business in that, but you know, back then, It was like, okay, what are customers sending us cases for bars? Okay, let's focus on that. So we actually did that for some time. I think we stuck on that for like 3 or four years. My uncle at that time wanted to get out. That's another story we invested in.
Yeah, I was gonna kind of ask that. He was probably thanking your happy ***. Thank you, good idea.
Not in the beginning, not in the beginning.
Oh, he wasn't happy 'cause you were busy.
It wasn't that at all either. This is where Jordan came in. So I know we connected through Jordan, who now manages and is the director. of Follow Me North America, which produces the Hyperden dude. He's the Hyperden dude. But before that, he used to work at Daytron. And maybe I was his first like on-site customer that he ever went to, because they were just told me, hey, we just hired this guy, Jordan. And at that time, we purchased this mill called the Daytron D5. I think we were like #1 or #2 customer in the whole US. And the thing just didn't work when we first got it. They had no support. My uncle invested a quarter of a million dollars on this machine. And for like six months, it was not working. And they just didn't have any support and he wanted out. He was like, Hey, I don't know what you're doing here with this machine, but just give me back my money.
Way too much money for me to **** away.
Yeah, exactly. So I was like, you know what, I still knew that what this machine and what this business could do. So I still wanted in. So I was like, okay, I can pay you back this machine, but you got to give me like a payment plan over three or four years. So we had a good, we worked it out. And obviously we're family, so we're still close. But at that time, we were in trouble. We were struggling and the machine wasn't working and we had other machines, but our primary focus was titanium bars. And, and it was not Milly. So then this guy, they need to bring this guy Jordan. I'm like, oh my God, who is this guy? Another schmuck that is, thinks that he can fix this machine. It's not gonna help me. It's not gonna help me at all. Like, you know? So I'm just like, oh God, it's just like, they're just sending it. This was like the third technician Datron sent out, you know?
And now you're eye rolling and you're like, all right, I got a freaking guy in here. Exactly. He needs to fix it right now.
He is a smart dude. I didn't know that back then. I didn't know that back then. You know, back then I was like, oh, he was in dental. Okay, well, you know, so I guess he had a history in dental. His father owned the lab, so some positive out of it. But really what happened was he came and fixed the machine, you know? And...
How? I got asked how, do you recall?
So I kind of wanted to give him all the credit, but since you're going deep into it, he did bring some... Oh, I'm going deep into it. Yeah. He did bring some from Germany and he had a lot of help. Let's just say it that way. So... But to be fair, it was after that that really helped. It was like, okay, yeah, we got the machine fixed, but now you need to support us and we need to be able to do what we need to do with this machine. And it went really well. We started killing it with titanium bars and this Daytron D5 machine really, really.
And now you had money to afford to pay your uncle back.
Which was a huge risk, but you're getting the whole story. So once this took off, then yes, obviously we were able to make those payments and we paid it off in three years. But it's still a small business.
It's 400 grand, it's no joke feeling.
It's no joke, it's no joke, yeah.
I mean, it's- Even per month, like that's a house payment in my opinion.
It is, it is, and then having to pay that off in three years, right? So A lot of money. And he tacked on interest, so it wasn't something.
I'm sure. My dad used to tack on interest.
He tacked on interest.
He's a good business man.
Yeah, So, but to be fair, you know, he took a huge risk, you know, just getting the... For sure. No one would have even... linked in borrowing money to me at that time. So I'm very thankful for that and couldn't be here today without him. So very thankful for that. But yeah, I mean, that's how we started. And that's how I met Jordan. And we had a great quality milling machine. And that's very important, I think, for any dental lab is to have quality equipment. And it's a big investment for any lab to invest in a milling machine. Even these days, I think they're a lot less. They're not a quarter of a million dollars anymore. So that's gone down quite a lot. But the biggest change that you guys might know about Imagine is probably Exocad, right? We met in Spain at Exocad Insights. And we got connected that way too. But that was back in around 2014, so about three years later. There was a pretty big shift. There was a lot of labs that started doing in-house milling. And I think this was a scare for every milling center at that time. That became like an analysising center was like, okay, well, labs are milling their own zirconia now, right? And now there's these metal milling machines. They might mill their own bars, they might mill their own abutments. So it was a big scare for a milling center like me at that time. And so we kind of jumped on board to also offer in-house solutions. So that's where we got connected with Exocad. We got connected with the scanner called DOF. You guys might know Duke Gear Freedom in the lab industry out there, but that was a scanner that we partnered with at that time. And then we partnered with IMS I-Core. So you probably know IMS I-Core too, and a lot of people have those machines out there. But that started back in 2014 and I actually hired a guy from Datron. He was the head of sales at Datron. Oh my. Yup, yup. Scooped him up, middle of the measure.
You're like, I'm scooping him right up.
Yup, and we went full on and we did really well. And I think today we're still seen as the main reseller for Exocad. At that time, we were the biggest reseller for IMS I-Corps. And we went we did really we went really hard with that. So so as of today, you know, where are we? You know, we don't sell just titanium bars and custom abutments. We also offer in-house solutions for dental laboratories.
But you still do the bars and abutments.
We do. We do. So it's very strange because and this is the shift. This is how crazy the lab industry is with like digital technology. So like I was involved in it from the milling center side, outsourcing, then went in-house for, okay, people might go all in with solutions now so labs can do it themselves. And now they're going back. So it's like, now they're outsourcing again, a ton, you know? So, you have to go through those shifts and changes with the lab industry. And for me, there was a shift in outsourcing After COVID.
That makes sense.
Yeah, that's for sure. I don't know if you guys saw that, but after COVID, there was a big, big change. So people started becoming a lot more tight with their spending.
We streamlined our processes. We eliminated.
Just waste. So people started becoming a little more conservative of what makes sense for the lab business and what I need to do. But there was some big spending. I don't know if it was because of government grants or maybe they got some extra cash, but there was a slight period around 2001, 2002 where it wasn't all that affected. But then after that, I mean, it was just Outsourcing, outsourcing, outsourcing.
So is that the period you just like went ballistic with your company?
Because they were outsourcing. We went ballistic the other way. We went ballistic when people started going for in-house solutions. So we started offering all. So the one thing with the equipment software game is it's high revenue, you know? So it's a big change for a business in terms of revenue. We had to put a lot of focus on it because a lot of that requires technical support. And when we want to offer good technical support, it's very, very hard. And I know we've. especially with the customers out there that's been with us since the beginning, they've experienced growing pains, you know, and I really appreciate them.
Well, when you say that, what does that mean? It's hard to find people that can help you with that technical background that can help your clients.
Think about this. You need to hire a technical support technician that knows more than the person in the lab That's actually doing the day-to-day cases, and they don't use it every day, right? So, how do you find people like that?
So, how do you even do that? Yeah, so how?
How hire those people that do it every day?
Well, that's hard to do, too. That's hard to do, too, because... They like that job. They like sitting down and designing and doing that stuff. Then you want to shift them to somebody that just takes phone calls and gets screamed at all day, right?
Yeah, that's a really, really good point.
It's a tough job, and our technical support team have a tough job because they're offering really complex solutions. And obviously we have Hyperdent to thank for that. We have Exocad to thank for that. But we do a good job of trying our best to support these customers to, let's go back to bars, milling bars in house, right? Milling these titanium bars that was very hard for us to get started and do and big investment that we had to do for these machines. And now we've got to teach these laboratories, even like one man labs, to be able to mill these complex cases. So it was a tough job. And the way we had to do it was from the ground up. We hired these guys with zero knowledge or support on how to do this stuff because they had some experience. And then, you know, myself was part of that training. I have another guy, Daniel Choi. He's been with me since the beginning. He's an engineer himself. So he's a mechanical engineer out of UVA. So he helped in a lot of the training because this is highly, highly technical. in milling bars back in 2014, 12 years ago. So it was not easy finding people to do that.
Also- How do you find people, if you don't mind me asking, like 12 years ago? Like, what do you look for when you're trying to find somebody?
You do have to take them from other companies that are very good. So that was very hard to do when Daniel Troy was with me since the beginning. So he's experienced the, from the start of how to do this and nesting it.
So he was the guy, so I could-- He was the guy.
Yeah, yeah, so that helped. But then, now we have to look to build the business, right? So there was another company out in Washington. I think they're called, they're 3D BioCad, you guys might know them. At that time, they were called B&B Milling Center.
Oh yeah.
There was a great guy named Josh Townsend out there, and he was my 3-shape support guy. And when we first started the business back in 2011, I actually bought my own 3-shape for the company. I wasn't stealing the scanner from my uncle anymore. So I was like, hey, you know what? I think I'm going to get my own 3-shape. I knew one of these for my own business. But at that time, just so you know, I was working two jobs. I was working for him, managing the CAD/CAM center. And then at the night, I was running Imagine Millie back at the time was what was called. So I did that for a year and a half, actually. So I had a lot of.
A lot of lab.
Work, so you had no life, it was basically, yep, I love the business, I hated the business, I loved it, hated it, loved it, so that's kind of how it goes with the lab, well said, yeah, well said, and then... Yeah, I was like, Hey man, by the way, you like know this Three Shape stuff really well. He's like, Yeah, I have to. I'm the only guy. I'm the only support guy here. So, and he had to support a ton of customers because they were selling a ton. They were a Three Shape reseller too back in the day.
Wow.
And they still are. And he was the only support guy there. And I was like, By the way, how much are they paying you? I don't even want to say because I don't want to get in trouble. I don't know who lists But probably not enough, right?
There's no way it was enough.
I was like, it's not enough. And then I said, whatever you're making, man, I'll give you double that. It was like, Oh my God. I need you to come here. I need your talent and your skills. So got him on board. And yeah, so people are extremely important if you want to grow a business and you need the best. And don't be shy to take risks. and hire the best people because it's absolutely worth it, because it's very important when you try to grow.
I love that. Yeah.
Especially if when you try to grow the business from nothing. Like you can't do it by yourself. So you need the best people there, especially when you're growing a business. It's a different story when you're already established and you have a process in place and you have a bunch of people working, then maybe you can, hire some people.
Sacrifice a little.
Sacrifice a little, have a trained curriculum, train them from the ground up. And that's what we do now. We hire. So one of our best techs, he used to work at a liquor store, So it's like, you wouldn't, I think the lab industry is kind of like that, right? you've got to find people, you got to find the dime in the rough.
We like alcohol.
You got to find people that diamond in the rough and you got to kind of train them from the ground up. And that's what we do today with our support techs. And I think that's the only way to do it. I don't know how you're going to find somebody that, like I've said before, that's going to be able to train people that work with the products day-to-day. And I think this is something that's very important for our businesses. We have a milling center. And with that milling center, one of our other good techs, he worked at our milling center. So he is used to using the machines that we sell, using the design softwares and the processes to manufacture these highly complicated cases that these labs want to learn from us to mill in-house. So you guys got to be the experts.
Yeah.
We have to be the experts and we have to be the best of the best because We're the ones that are responsible for these businesses, right? We are responsible for these dental laboratories that make these investments with us and succeed. And it's not easy. So obviously, it's very hard.
And there's no pressure. Yeah.
It's a very, very hard business. And I think it's something that will always be very tough, but we're in it for the long run. Any laboratory invest with us today for in-house milling solutions. We're in it. We've been in it for a long time. You know, we've been in it with HyperDat when it wasn't HyperDat. It was actually called Open Mind back then. There was no HyperDat. Oh, what was it called? It was called Open Mind. And that's the product we bought back in 2011 was Open Mind. And it was this guy named Alan that managed it. He's like, hey, Felix, I mean, there's this thing called Hyperdent. You want to just, I don't know what this is, but it's supposed to be for dental. So gave me a free license, you know, was like, hey, just try this thing out. And I was like, you know what? This is pretty cool. Like, can we, can I like sell this to other labs and, you know, do that? He's like, I guess, you know? So we were the first, we were the first, we were the first distributor of Hyperdent. as well. So that might be a story too. So nobody sold it back then and we packaged it with IMSI core machines. So that's how HyperDyn came to be.
So in your milling center, you only use the equipment that you also sell to labs?
Yes, and that's very important to us.
That's pretty cool.
Materials too. Don't forget the materials. There's materials and the mills.
So do you also do like regular crown and bridge work?
Yep, we do. When we started, the biggest worry we had when we first started was the crown and bridge work was like, hey, if we lose this business, because we just started that business back in like 2012, I think a year later, like, let's try zirconia. And we went all out. We used zircons on. Yeah, that is all out. We lose Zeroconzon per towel. Like we went all in. Like if you want the best of the best. And we were just an outsourcing center. We did not sell crowns and copings to dentists directly at all. Still to, and today too, we're not really a full service lab. Again, we are a milling center, which basically is an outsourcing center for dental laboratories. And the best way to word that in the best terminology is milling center. So what do you guys do? Oh, we're a milling center. And that terminology has been around for a while. I don't think it makes sense today because we haven't even talked about the printing technology that's taking off, you know? So, are we a milling center? I don't know. I mean, Now we're just a center. Because everything we do could be printing in the next five years. So I don't know if milling center is going to make sense in the future, but that word milling center has been around since the beginning. So since 2011, when we started the business, we called ourselves a milling center. And that's still what it is today.
How do you how do you choose materials? Like how do you how did you know Zircon's on at that point or at this point is the best? Elvis and I talked to somebody from last weekend and it's just such an amazing company. But like, how do you choose who and what products you mill?
Yeah, so it was very important in the beginning to partner with people that had their CAD/CAM down. So CAD/CAM meaning their milling machines, the nesting software, what design software. And at that time in 2011, Zarcon Zon was it. They had this. Remember when I talked to you about three shape and I was like, this can't do bars. It's not the best for bars. They're great now. But at that time in 2011, wasn't the best scan for spars. So I looked elsewhere and Zarcon Zon had an awesome scanner that was super accurate. They had these scan bodies. You guys probably all know about scam bodies now, but at that time it was very rare. It was very hard to get scam bodies. So, you know, 15 years ago, you didn't have this whole world of options for scam bodies.
Now there's too many, but yeah.
Now there's too many, right? But back then, who had scam bodies for bars that you were allowed to mill your stuff in-house? It wasn't a lot, and it was Zircon's on. They had scam bodies so that you can scan bars and potentially mill bars in-house. They didn't even have a mill to mill metal. So they were just like way ahead of their time. Like, hey, we've got these like STL outlets for connections that if you mill this in titanium, it'll fit this model perfectly. So for us, we scanned, so when a customer sent a model to us to scan, design, and mill a bar, it was all through Zurich comes on from the scanning and the designing. That's what introduced us to Exocad. So back then, there was no Exocad. It was Armin Gerbach and Zircon Zan. They were the only two companies that were white labeling Exocad. And you couldn't really buy Exocad because all you had was Zircon Zan and Armin Gerbach. And then a couple of years later, they came out with like an open version of Exocad. And that's when I got hooked up with Larry back in the day. Larry. Yep, And we sold just the software. We didn't even have a scanner because we hooked up with Larry before we even started selling stuff in-house. So we didn't even have a scanner to sell Exocad with. My idea was, hey, I will scan this for you, but buy the software called Exocad. You can design your own bars. So you're not happy with our designer because the designer, I used to tell them, oh, we have this awesome designer in-house. designing your bars, but it was just me. So if you guys were curious as to who was designing the bars back then for iMilling, I was the one just designing the bars, but I obviously I didn't want people to worry that I didn't, you know, I wanted them to trust us in sending it. So, but you know, I designed all the bars. I used to train Daniel to help me in times that I got busy. But Yeah, I mean, I wasn't the perfect designer. And there were times that I didn't meet people's expectations for bar design.
So I cannot imagine that. I don't believe that at all.
Yeah, but then, you know, I give customers options. Hey, if you buy this software called Exocab, which is an open version, you can design your own bar. So that's how I started with Larry. That was 2000, I think it was 2012. So that was 14 years ago. And I don't even think I don't even think he was really selling Exocad back then. I think he just got into it. So very, very early days with Exocad. And but back then it was Zircon's on. We use that to scan and design. And then we're like, you know what, let's just use their material because this cat can system is so awesome. So it just naturally makes sense for us, right, to use their zirconia. So what are we going to use to sell and mill and for our zirconia crowns and products?
Bingo.
Bingo here. And we got an N5 mill. So we got a milling machine too of theirs. And so we went all in and we sold a lot of zircons on crowns and things back then.
That was really smart of you. Just saying.
Yeah, So that was important. So when people think about material, that is just a small fraction. of what you need for materials. You really need a great process. You need a good system. You need a good workflow. And that's what's so important these days is everyone is so focused on the material now. Because you know why? Because back then, We didn't have that luxury. We didn't have this 98 millimeter universal puck. We had to work with closed systems, you know, we had to work with Zircon Zahn or Gerbach. You know, Gerbach back in the day was like a D-shape and Zircon Zahn had these 95 millimeter pucks. And then the 98 was actually a machine called Whelan.
Oh, I remember them.
Yeah. So Whelan, so you have to choose Whelan. For the 98 millimeter you have to choose. I think it was Cavo Cavo had their own system. So you you had to choose systems So for us it was like okay, which system works the best for us and we chose our cons on back then so Great company great materials. Obviously, we don't work with them anymore We had the luxury of the 98 millimeter puck now that everyone now is just so focused on the material now now they have the luxury to not just think about the system. Now it's like, okay, what material do we choose? So it's a good day to be in the digital world now. And we partner now with what we think are great materials, but that's hard, right? I mean, what determines which material is better than the other, right? That's very difficult. And I don't have an answer for that today. It's a tough question. It's a very tough question. There's so many out there. There's so many price points. right? There's like different levels of quality and price points, and it's a different story, but I think for sure back then it was Zircon's on, and it was an easy choice for us back then on the material.
Yeah, that was a great answer. Thank you. I appreciate that.
No problem.
I want to just go ahead. No, I want to get into Mist.
Yeah, This is implant parts.
Implant parts and components. You know, I mean, I love these things. I believe, now correct me if I'm wrong, but I was introduced to you because I used to work in a lab that was big into OEM. It was like what it was based off of and Keystone I had to send to you. Is that true?
That is true. That is true. How did you hook up?
How did this all happen?
Yeah. So I'm so glad you asked this question because I never.
Well, obviously he had an inside scoop on it.
But that's awesome that you have that inside scoop because it is, you know, it's very important for this for the lab industry these days. So For us, back around 2013, 2014 is when we kind of branched out to selling in-house solutions, right? So it's like, hey, we're not just a milling center. Now we need to give laboratories on how to mill these products. So back then, there was a company called NT Training. And they were literally the only compatible connection, implant component that was out there that companies like us to use and resell, So we were so focused on that, but I really didn't like the product. I feel like it could be improved. There were some restorative issues with it. So that's when we decided to make our own implant components. It's like, hey, let's do it. Yeah, so that was back in 2014. It's like, Okay, we can't just focus on selling in-house solutions if we're selling bad prosthetic components, right? So that's what made us really focus on that. And we were so focused on making real nice. So all our tie bases are titanium nitric coated, so it means it's gold. We thought, what's better than gray? gold and that's the only option that we have. That's the easiest way to do it.
I got to give a shout out to my son right now because he came into my room yesterday and he's like, mom, if you send an implant out that's... gray or silver, it's got to be gold. I was like, all right. I'm sending cases out. You got to bring it back to me. It's got to be that the proper way. And it looks so much better in the mouth. It does.
It does. It gives a more warmth color feel behind it. So we're so focused on that. We also wanted to clarify for laboratories, what's the final screw? Because it's very confusing when you get 2 silver screws, right? So they're both like titanium. So we're just like, hey, How do we tell a lab, this is your lab screw, this is your working screw. Don't touch this screw. So we also made a differentiator of titanium nitrating the final screw as well. So I would say that's like the major selling point of our mist in plant components. People say other things, but that's just my opinion in terms of explaining it to a lab, you know, like why is your product better? and the others out there. So.
Well, you're explaining it to me and I totally get it because I'm not an implant technician, but I do ceramics over the implants. And I always have to go in there and ask them, which screw do I send? Which one do I keep? Like, I know I sound like an idiot, but it's people like me or lab techs like me that need those. You know, you have to kind of... make it a little obvious 'cause you've got a lot going on in a lab. So thank you for that.
Yeah, yeah, of course. So, but we're a small company. It was hard to really get in implant components. It's very hard to get a brand out there when you're competing with major, major companies, you know? Sure. And it's a huge business. You know, I don't know if you guys know, but it's a huge, huge business.
Elvis knows.
And it's, it's... People fight, people tell on each other to the FDA, people like do this and that. So it's a behind the scenes, it's a very, very hard market, you know, to get out there and get your name known.
So my favorite thing is OEMs. They will tell you not to use off-brand, but yet they also sell an off-brand. And I always thought that would be.
And it's tough to fight that too. It's tough to fight that. It is because you know what they do is they partner with companies like us that make implant components and they make us their OEM, you know? And that's how we got with Keystone. And how did Keystone connect with a small like company like us back in 2014 and 15 and make us their OEM partner? Like, how the heck did that happen? Well, you know who loved our parts? That was our biggest customer back then.
Who's that?
The United States Navy.
Wow, you're kidding me.
I'm not kidding you. So our biggest customer for missed implant components is the United States Navy. And how did they connect with a company's small business like us, iMilling, that was just the milling center, and just trying to get off with this new implant components product? we're right by Washington, D.C. So we're actually Northern Virginia. So we had some of these people come to Bethesda that heard about NT trading of all parts. I was like, hey, which company sells it? Hey, there's a company I'm milling that sells these parts. You should go down there. Because there weren't many distributors back then for NT trading. And we were one of the ones. And I met a guy named Dr. Peter Barnes. That's another story too. He's actually works for Imagine now. He's our clinical advisor. Oh wow. So he just left the Navy in October last year. So anyways, we connected with him and folks over at Walter Reed in Bethesda and was like, hey, Here's his entry training I saw, by the way, Peter, but you should check out this other product we have. It's called Mist, and this is what it looks like. Let me know what you think. He was like, Holy crap, this is way better. Am I allowed customers to say crap here? Is that okay? Yes. Okay, okay, okay, all right.
You can even say the F word if you want to. Don't bleep it out.
Okay, but it was like, Holy crap, this is awesome, you know? And how do we get this in there? I'm like, man, we just need like an FDA clearance on these things, but we're working on this. And then he was like, what? I'm going to introduce you. There's this guy named John D'Angelo. He works for this company called Keystone and he might be able to help you, right? So we were a small little company. We had no money to like get fatigue testing done through a laboratory, you know, put FDA clearance and then buy all these like, you know, implants. I didn't even know who I would get these implants from to make them compatible. And then hooked me up with John D'Angelo. He was like the head of clinical sales for Keystone at that time. And he was just like, you know what? These parts are awesome. I'm going to help you. I'm going to have Keystone help you clear these parts.
Wow.
So Keystone Dental came and did all the fatigue testing for us. They gave us all the implants free of cost so that we could- Even.
For ones that weren't on Keystone.
We started with, but this is what's important. You have to start somewhere, right?
Yeah.
And we had no idea how to do this. So We needed a starting point. And Keystone was our starting point. We worked with them. They were our first compatible implants. And then I got the know-how, right? How do I do this?
Yeah, okay, I get you.
I need to do fatigue testing. Okay, what's the next part? Reverse engineering analysis. Oh, guess what? We got the biocompatibility cleared. So guess what? For the next ones, I don't need biocompatibility cleared because I already did that. And then it gets you in this groove and then you keep working. Now we have about 20 different implant systems. But back in the day, we had to get started. And Keystone was the one to do it. Another thing that happens today, John DiAngelo is now our head of sales for Imagine.
Congratulations.
Thank you, thank you. So he works for us now. That's awesome. But that's what happened. I got connected with John DiAngelo and he hooked us up, man. Wow. And we got the pins with Keystone and that got us the chance to actually fight in this really hard game of Empire Components. So, and we got our name out there through them. Keystone did help, but now we've partnered with a new implant company called SIC out of Germany. It's Swiss German because their headquarters is in Switzerland, but a lot of the manufacturers are done in Germany, so we've partnered with them now in terms of an implant company, but yeah. But a lot of labs know us through the OEM part for Keystone, just like Eva said. And that's how it came to be.
Are you still OEM for Keystone?
We still are. We're still OEM for Keystone. Keystone has also another OEM partner. I don't even know if I'm allowed to say this, but it's from DAS. So I don't know.
We've interviewed those guys. Yeah.
You have? Okay. Yeah. So they also do it. So I think their philosophy now is like, hey, we're going to have OEM components for multiple brands out there. And laboratories, you choose what you want, which is a good philosophy. So I think that's a great philosophy for Keystone.
Some of these big companies, I mean, they stronghold you. I mean, if you want to go, OEM, which I get, whatever, you have to use theirs and they're not cheap.
Yeah. I think it's a good philosophy for Keystone. I still think they're a great company with great implant systems and solutions. So yeah, absolutely. We still are. We're working on one for SIC, which is the implant company we're partnered with now. And hopefully, fingers crossed, by next month, we'll get the FDA clearance and that'll be our second OEM.
That's got to be hard.
Oh my God. SIC, I haven't. seen that in Indiana yet. Is it growing in the States? Has it been here for a while or?
So we have an exclusivity agreement with them to introduce this implant to the United States.
So have you introduced it yet?
We will introduce it in November.
Just said they were getting FDA clearance, yeah.
Yep, yep. We will introduce it in November in New York to the clinical industry. Because we've got to sell it to dentists so that it can get in a lab's hands, right? We can't just, you got to get implants placed in the mouth so that labs can restore them. And we want to also, but you know, our goal is to give a really nice CAT/CAM restorative solution that's affordable too. Like we don't want, you should never be paying like $200 for a Thai base. and then have to sell it for a dentist for like 250, right? So you're just cutting into the profits of the lab. You want to be able to sell it for, let's say $50 and the lab can make, you know, then sell it for 300 to 500, how much they want to sell the screw retained crown for. Yeah, I love it. So that's very important is to support the lab business and be able to, make them money. I mean, that's our goal. Our goal is to, is it to outsource to imagine and then be able to resell the custom abutment to a fair price? Or is it that you want to have complete control and make the highest margin possible by making the investment of buying in-house solution equipment like Exocad and scanners and mills and printers? So we have both options for laboratories and it's up to them how they want to do it. So that's kind of a the business we have these days.
What does the SIC stand for?
So it was founded by a very famous oral max surgeon. His name was Dr. Shilly. So the S stands for Shilly is the name. And then Implantology Circle. Oh, nice.
Oh, I love that.
Yeah, so the way SIC was made was actually They formed the company just to have these key opinion meetings of all these world-renowned dentists from all over the world. And they wanted to meet together in one, it's very fascinating. They all meet together in a different city that George Shilley, he's now the CEO. He gets to pick like where all these dentists are gonna meet and talk about the next great implant product. I love that. And so he takes the feedback from all these dentists and that's how they improve their products and make new products. And that always happens every two years. So, and that's how the company started. I was like, hey, you know.
Feedback.
Feedback, what implants should I make? That's how they make the implant products. It's pretty cool. So they're very well known.
Yeah, so he's taken it from the dentists that are seeding these implants or placing these implants, I should say. And then they're telling the company what they need to make them better.
Yup, yup. They're a small business too, but they have a great product. Their implants are, I think, very, very nice for CAT/CAN components. They have like this flat **** joint where we know exactly what the vertical height is. Some of these conical connections, you can't get that vertical height. So labs will love it. They'll love that. Okay, I can make a bridge. I can actually see if it's seating or not, you know, and I can have like this very tight hex connection. So I know that if I do this 100% digital, it's not going to be slightly rotated here, you know, so they can get the perfect timing, right? Because that's important and the perfect vertical height. You need that when you are making a 100% digital crown. let's say, or implant restoration. So they do a great job with that. So I really loved that implant. I'm not trying to make a ton of money selling implants. I just know that it's very important, at least for the Mist brand that you introduce, Elvis, into this, is that in order for that to be successful, you need to offer... not just compatible implants, but OEM implants to the lab industry. So we're going to continue to build that. We started with Keystone, we have SIC, and we want to introduce more and more because that's also a business that's important for us is the OEM business as well.
Yeah. I mean, I see it both sides of the fence. I don't have game on either side, but I understand how why one wouldn't, why one wouldn't might as well be in both areas.
I absolutely understand why. And it is tough when you're in the compatible implant components game, because you don't know what the implant companies are doing or coming out with next, right? So you just...
That's for sure.
Right so you're like oh my God another connection you know you know how frustrating it was when Strawman came with BLX like oh my God we were just getting down to the bone level now we got to do this BLX connection and since I'm as compatible components game maybe you might hear from me for the first time but they're making another change to their BLX so you got a WB you got a RB a WB and they're making another change to the RB. We're just like, oh my god. I don't know. I think it's just.
Not in my language.
I know, but it doesn't look loud either.
I know.
It's just like, what is this? I got to buy another part for the... Now not, it's not just BLX. Now you got a RB and WB, which was just got introduced, I think not too long ago. They split up the RBW. Now they got this another RB connection that goes over the implant. Like it's like, oh, it's.
They're going back to the synocta button.
For the bridges, for the bridges, yeah. They're gonna have this little lip, a little lip that goes over that for the RB now. So it's not a fun business to be in all the time when you're dealing with compatible connections. So it's a tough, tough business to be in for sure.
It seems like a lot of these implant companies are trying to solve problems that nobody has.
Yeah, it's a business too, right? So it's like, how can I sell more prosthetic components as well? So we're thinking about that as well.
That's crazy.
Yeah.
SIC implants, is that the next big thing for you? Is just working on that, getting that out.
I think honestly, it's one of the biggest things for sure. We spent a lot of efforts to, and we still are, to get this introduced into the US. It's more for the clinical industry. So hopefully you'll start seeing that into lab industry. The other big thing is we are working on a patent for angled custom abutments that labs can do in-house. So that's a big one. So we hope to get some beta testing done this month. So hopefully you'll see that. Hopefully that will really bring the Miss brand into everyone's ears. So hopefully we'll see that soon.
Awesome. Well, Felix, that's exciting stuff, man. I had no idea Imagine was doing so much.
Yeah, You could do a whole other interview. Thank you, thank you. Well, I appreciate you guys having me on and I'm very happy to share my story.
Yeah, thank you so much, man. And I guess what? See you in Chicago, I guess? I mean, it won't be the beach, but...
Are you guys coming to Lab Day East? No, not doing any.
Our next one is LabFest.
Yeah, I see, I see, I see, I see. Probably Chicago then. That's probably where we'll see you. Yeah, I'll wait.
Yeah. Well, thanks, Felix. We appreciate it.
Thank you.
Of course. Thank you. Congrats to you guys.
Thank you.
All right, have a great weekend, all.
You too. Thank you.
A huge thanks to Felix for coming on our podcast to tell us about the amazing journey that you have taken to be where you are today. And it's always funny to us to hear about people that start in our industry not liking it, but eventually coming to love it. If your lab is looking for a good milling, but not milling center, Give Imagine USA a try. And if you're looking to manufacture in your lab, also give Imagine USA a try. The fact that they support what they use and that they only sell to labs puts them above the rest in my book. So thank you again, Felix.
Yeah, thank you again. What a great story. All right, everybody. That's all we got for you. And of course, we'll go up to you next week. See ya. Bye.
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What sort of dirt do you want, *****? The views and opinions expressed on the Voices from the Bench podcast are those of the guest and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the host or Voices from the Bench LLC.