Hi folks of the community. I'm Laura Prosser, the digital marketing manager here for IWA North America, and I would like to invite you to start following us on Instagram. It's your chance to obtain exclusive updates on product announcements, industry news, upcoming educational events, and heartwarming stories about our local team and industry professionals. So let's get social together! Simply start following us on Instagram at. That's Instagram at. We'll see you there. Welcome to voices from the bench, a dental laboratory podcast. Send us an email at Info Voices from the bench and follow us on Facebook and Instagram. Greetings and welcome to episode 374 voices from the bench. My name is not Grandpa Elvis. Ah, my name is Grandma Barbara. Yes you are. Congratulations. The baby made it. Thank you. Yeah, it was a 30 hour labor. Oh, I haven't done anything for 30 hours. Oh, all night long for this lady. They finally made the decision to have a C-section at five. After pondering it for five hours, then it was a little bit of a cluster. But he's beautiful. Who ponders it? The doctors or the mother? The nurses and then the doctor. And yeah. So there was no complications per se. I kept trying to force it, and then finally they called it and said, no, we're doing a C-section. But he's beautiful. They're both healthy. All is good in my world. How about you? Awesome. I'm doing good, right? I'm doing all right. No new children, which is good in my life. No new dogs, which are basically my children. Yes they are. All is good. All right. Good. Weather's getting running worthy. And. Yeah, loving all that. Yeah. All right. You got to give me a peacock update. Last week, you had a killer peacock in your yard. Is it still hanging around my neighbor. She's kind of a freak and, uh, found a way to get rid of it. I don't know how. And you're not asking questions, and I haven't heard it, and I haven't seen it, so I don't think she killed it. I think she called somebody to come and get it because she said they're nasty and they peck on cars and. Yeah. So. Yeah. So I haven't seen him, but I didn't do anything to him. I enjoyed him, but yeah, he's gone. Keep your hands clean and yes sir. And nobody will know. All right. Speaking of Florida, Skagway, just three weeks away from the FDLE meeting. What a better way to celebrate the summer than fun in Orlando. Learning about teeth. Right, right. Join me and hopefully bar. What? What do you get back Saturday and you're going to try to swing by? I think. So I might fly into Orlando. It's just I still haven't even. You know how I roll. I haven't even made my flights yet. So no, no, you do it before. It's way too early. Well, definitely me. And maybe Barb will be at the Jensen Dental booth on June 13th and the 14th. Recording anybody willing to sit down. So make sure you head over to Fhd+. Net for more information and to register. All right. So this week we get to have a conversation with a dentist in Aspen, Colorado who's doing some cool treatment planning with a mathematical equation. No doubt. Super cool. It's really neat. So Doctor Andrew Turchin knew he wanted to be a dentist the minute he shadowed one. After spending 13 years in upscale part in New York, he moved his practice to upper scale Aspen, doing a lot of very high end crown and bridge. He developed a pretty simple way to communicate to his lab by using a formula that will dial in both aesthetics and occlusion. Now, Doctor Turchin is teaching other clinicians and a couple dental technicians his new way of doing things simply. With the end in mind. He talks about having an in-office technician, how the formula works, and how a balanced occlusion goes beyond just the teeth. So join us as we chat with Andrew Turchin. Voices from the bench. The interview. Barb and I are always super excited when we get a dentist on the podcast. Doctor Turgeon. Am I saying that correctly? Yes. So, Doctor Andrew Turchin, you reached out to me and say, hey, are you guys interested in having a dentist on that's got a lab? Yes I would. How are you, sir? Very good. Thank you. So you tell me you come from Aspen, Colorado. So, yeah, you must do some pretty high end, expensive dental work, I only imagine. I've never been there, but I hear about it. Yeah, I sure do. I was in New York City for 13 years before I moved here about 13 years ago. It was very similar market for me. Yeah. And I always took the cosmetic reconstructive route. And here we are in Aspen, Colorado, continuing what we did in New York. And, you know, we've grown it to an education component. We teach a lot of dentists occlusion and cosmetics and reconstructive dentistry. It's a lot of fun. So. Yeah. Yeah. So we usually ask technicians how they learn about dental labs and it's, you know, no different wanting to know how you learned about dentistry. Uh, yeah. It was a good friend of mine in college. I was a little bit lost on what I wanted to do. I was I loved sciences and health, so I was thinking about physical therapy or chiropractic and. Oh, you want to crack some bones, huh? Yeah. Yeah, that would be fun. Right. Snap a neck or two. Got it. Exactly. And, uh, I just knew I wanted to help people and work with my hands, I guess. And she said, you know, why don't you do an internship with my father, who was a dentist, a friend of mine in dental school, and it was only about 20 minutes down the road from college. And I did it. And I said, wow, this is this could be a fun profession. It's tinkering, it's fixing, and it's helping people. It seems like the perfect combination for me. And just from that, you decided to enroll in dental school. That was it. I applied to dental school right after that. And, uh, I was lucky enough to get into a couple of schools and chose, uh, what's now called Rutgers Dental. I was at Rutgers undergrad at the time, so I guess I'm a Jersey boy at heart. You always hear about trying to get into dental school being hard, but you just said you got accepted into a couple of different schools. Yeah. I mean, it was it was a lot easier 26 years ago. 27 or. Yeah, it was. Well, you sound young. Yeah. It's not on video, but you'd see my white beard. I'm 51, so I'd say I'm, I'm a middle aged now they tell me it's one of the reasons I moved to Aspen. It's literally a fountain of youth here. 70 plus year olds are skiing double black diamonds on a regular basis. So it's a special, special place. And how many of them have broken bones? Huh? You know, they heal. It's the question is how many have replaced parts? Knees, hips, almost all of them. And that's the great thing. We have the technology today to replace our body parts, not just our teeth. That's true. So when you got into school without having that passion for dentistry, was it hard to get into it? Did you did you find the the schooling difficult? Well, I'd like the lab aspect. Yeah. And then the science is fine. I mean, I did I was a science, you know, major in undergrad. I was an exercise physiology major. So what I don't want to say was easy. It was very, very hard. It was very intense. The lab stuff was pretty cool. I started again, I liked working with my hands and doing things, so I like that. And then once I started working on patients is, I think when I started taking it very seriously, I think that's what I was meant to do, is help people heal people. And, um, it's it's a blast doing it. So that's when I became very passionate. I wasn't acing dental school by any means, but I was scraping by. I'll never forget when the, uh, Dean called me into dental school and he said. Andrew, you know, you've got some CS and some BS and, you know, and uh, you know, you're not you're not doing that. Great. And I said, that's the same as I did in college. And you let me in with that. But that's just who I am. You know what you're getting. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think I'm doing great because in dental school you take about 50 credits at a time versus college 15. So for 17. And so it's much more intense. So for me to even be keeping up. And I was just happy I was passing, but I was really proud. I wasn't acing school, I wasn't top of my class or anything like that. But by the time we got the clinics and by the time we graduated, uh, the top people in my class were coming to me as a young, you know, as a new dentist in New York City. Yeah. They needed that single anterior tooth. They came to me, they thought I could pull it off. And we all know that just takes an amazing lab to pull off. Yeah. And really hard. So, you know, I think clinically is where I shine. I'm not saying I've got the best hands in the world or any of that. It's just I care about the end results for people. So it helps me do my best. Yeah. When you're going through school and you started seeing those initial patients. Bedside chair side manner. Is that even taught, or did you have to kind of learn it? Yeah, I don't think it's taught at all. Yeah, I think it's just something, uh, you have or learn. And when I say, have we all get better inside? But some people are. Yeah. You know, more natural, more natural. Sure. Socialization and things like that. And certainly in dental school, it runs the gamut, just as I'm sure it does in the lab industry. Right? Well, yeah, I don't have to guess. I've met a lot of lab technicians over the years, so. And I actually I just got back from Chicago because I think lab techs are a lot more fun than dentists. That's why I go. Yeah. So you you hung out at Lab Day the whole weekend? Oh, well, I only was there Thursday night and Friday night and into Saturday I grabbed, I think I had a 330 flight out. So I had a friend coming to town that it was a last minute decision to go. What happened was I was sitting here seeing patients in about and I was getting texts from all over the country saying, hey, are you going to be there to catch up? And I said, you know what? Cancel my last patient. I jumped on a fourth and I went because I always wanted I went a couple of years before. And it's really it's something I don't want to miss. I really need to go every year. It's. I find it more interesting than going to the dental meetings. So tell me, as a, as a dentist, like take me through your lab day experience, do you actually physically go to LMT and what kind of courses do you look at and go to? Uh, I'm most interested in. Ceramics courses. Yeah. So, I mean, I saw a kite and I saw, oh, yeah, Jonathan Burke and I, you know, I saw a few different people I knew, and I didn't take as many courses as I wanted to, number one, because I didn't sign up for any because I didn't plan it last minute. Yeah. And then when I got there, it was like, go, go, go, and I hadn't. It's much easier to choose your courses online. That's my advice. That hasn't been. But I also wanted to go see a bunch of vendors. I was looking for a new mill. You know, the the elusive Emacs mill that's, you know, can nail it every time. Yeah. Much harder to do than milling zirconia. Yeah. My favorite Articulator 82. I had to go see Dave, and I just have to go see people and look at the latest technologies. And we're expanding the lab. So there's some equipment that we were looking at another mill, like I said, and, uh, maybe some new printers to just expand. We're taking 1000ft² adjacent to my office, just for the lab. Instead of trying to squeeze, you know, how dental practice, try to squeeze their lab into a small space. But I think, I hope, with 1000ft². Well, heck yeah. Right. But as I thought about seven. Yep. Yeah, right. That's one of those great Emacs meals for sure. Obviously. Right. Because I makes it. Thousand square feet. Good. Now. Yeah. You're right. Right. It won't be soon. Yeah, I think about that on occasion. But hopefully enough room for 2 or 3 texts within a lot of, you know, equipment. Do you have a bunch of partners or is that just you? That's just me. You know, one dentist left. Oh. So why am I expanding the lab to multiple texts and such? I think is what you're getting at. Yeah. Because of my teaching, I have well over. You know, we're we're probably going to be multiple hundred soon of dentists we've trained that are always looking for labs that understand our philosophy and can give them what they're looking for. It's sometimes it's lost in translation because we do we do things a little bit uniquely and, and, you know, tooth form and tooth shape and what they're really looking for. They come to my course because it's the most comprehensive four day course on cosmetics and occlusion there is. And I know that sounds impossible to teach in four days. And I get it. But we've got some tricks of like analyzing cases. We've got a mathematical formula, for instance, that tells us a lot of things that we have to do, and it helps people take years of knowledge and condense it into one mathematical formula. So for all these reasons, my students are when they want to get going and they want somebody that understands our process. So I'd like to support them. And it's always been hard because we haven't had the capacity. I keep my technicians relatively busy. Yeah. So you want to build a lab to do outside work as well? Yeah. Yeah. The number one thing will always be to support me and my patients first. But yeah, I'm just one dentist. But we do a lot of full mouth reconstructions and, you know, cosmetic reconstructions and occlusal reconstructions, if you will. So what came first? You doing your own lab work or are you teaching? Oh, that's a great question. By the way, I've never done my own lab work. That's silly. I've done some lab work. I know how to do some lab work. I've never been one of those dentists that by a serac and think I'm going to replace my lab and sit down and want a glaze. Yeah. Yeah. And I do love it. And I do do it on occasion. Uh, you know, somebody's on vacation or, you know, we've been in between technicians on occasion, and I've sat down and I've done the work. So I always look at it as a great learning experience, even if it's hard to see patients all day and then work trying to finish a ten unit case. But it's important that I actually know how to do it. But in the beginning, I had never done that. I wanted great work, and I hired a ceramicist and a technician a full like. Old school analog technician that could do everything. And I did it because I wanted the best for my patients. Yeah. Is this in New York? No, this was here. It was only about 8 or 9 years ago. About three years in here. I realized we had a couple of issues. Number one, shipping wasn't super reliable into Aspen. Yeah, interesting. Because of what? Snow and whatever. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. All that? Exactly. And then number two, I know everybody says, well, there's great ceramics you could just send to. And I've worked with plenty of them. And, you know, things could get lost in translation. To me the most important thing is communication. And we have better tools than ever. Photography and, you know, XO, CAD and things to communicate with. Yeah, but I tell you, things get lost every day if you want all the details to be right. Yeah. Yeah. There's no way you can communicate everything. I mean, you can document, you can written word, but you'll lose a lot when you just don't have the patient there. Are there even labs in Aspen? I don't even know. I imagine there is. No, there's. It's a tiny town of 8000 people. So, yeah, we're the only lab, but I don't do work for anybody else in town. I and I, I it's for myself. And every once in a while, I have room for another case from one of my students or anybody. So how did you find this magical technician that can do it all? I called a a colleague from New York City, a precedent that always had great technicians in his office in New York City. It was a thing. This. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I was brought up like. That's every practice I worked at before my own. I there was a technician, and then when I went out on my own in New York City, we tried to maybe get a technician or have enough space, but realistically, it was fine. In my building on Madison Avenue, there was probably ten technicians in the building. You kidding me? I know where Madison Avenue is. That's crazy. All in other dental offices, right? There were two standalone labs and one lab within a dental office that they were happy to take other cases in, and all in the same building, all in the same building, you know, 25 floors of offices. And there's there was a couple of labs, but if not, if I liked a different technician, it was like, okay, he's ten blocks away. He'll stop by and, uh, see a patient. And so it always felt like I had an in lab technician, and I was used to sitting down with technicians and looking at line angles. I mean, I did this even with Jason Kim. We looked at cases closely together. Yeah, I don't know. I was so used to it. I spent so much time in the laboratory, in the in-house laboratory, as an associate at my first job with Jonathan Levine on Fifth Avenue, and I would wax cases and I just, I don't know, I just think it's important to get your hands dirty and to touch and feel cases yourself. And that's one of the issues with digital, even when we're designing digital here in the office. Every once in a while I'm like, you know, just print a model. Let's see if it's really what we think it is because you have to hold it. Yeah, I don't know. Do you guys do a lot of digital stuff and what's your. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Tons. I like when I do like a ten unit veneer case and then doctoral prep maybe a molar. And I get to print it and look at my work and see the anatomy and everything. And yeah, so it gives it a different perspective when you can actually hold the finished product in your mouth or in your hand that's printed in your mouth. Absolutely. So yeah, I agree, I totally get it. So how do you collaborate with your ceramics now? Does he go in and meet the patient with you? Do you? I don't think we found out how you got this guy yet, did we? Oh. Oh sorry. Oh yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. Oh yeah. So it was a normal thing for the horse. Yeah. Well, called, uh, one of my buddies, he always said, I'll find you a technician. So I called him, and I said, I'd like a technician. I think what case didn't come in in time or it was mistakenly made the wrong shade or something happened that I said, that's it. I need my own technician. I do enough of these cases, and I think it'll be a boon to my practice and elevate my practice. To have an in-house technician and a boon to the quality of care I give my patients. It's the number one thing for me. Yeah. And so I called somebody in New York City and he said, you know, Andrew, I think I have somebody for you. He's one of the technicians that had moved back to Italy and he wanted to come back. So, you know, he came to visit. He never left. He sent for his family and they moved later. And, um, you know, that was that was the first of, you know, it's been about eight years. You know, we've had a few different people. And sometimes the team is one person, sometimes the team is two people, and the second person is when we decided for capacity issues and everything else, one person's hard to get it all done, to be honest, but a digital person and an analog person really, really helps the situation. I know you did this for quality of care for your patients, but honestly, are you saving any money doing this? Is it costing you more? Hell no. Right? It cost me so much more. Yeah, especially where I am. And the cost of living is insane, isn't it? Exactly. So to house somebody. What? I end up giving people housing. Giving people their home. Oh. Are you are you hiring? No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, and I eat my costs, and I still pay them as much as anybody else pays. Um, I figure the cost of living is expensive. Here, let me take care of the number one cost of living thing is housing. So housing is taken care of, and then I pay them a salary that's as good as anywhere else, which is just, you know, a huge benefit in this way, they they feel comfortable living in, you know, a place where. Groceries are 7% more than nationally or whatever it is. And then how do you guys collaborate together? So you've given up all of that. I'll go back to my other question, like, do you bring them in to meet the patients? Do you guys do the digital designs? They set them up for you and then you say yay or nay or change this, or how does how does that relationship work? I mean, a little of everything, even this new addition, they're going to be another 20ft down the hall. It feels like it's going to we're going to be disconnected more. I'm a little worried about that. They are, I don't know, ten feet from my maybe. Well, yeah, about ten feet from my main operatory, the ceramics now. Wow. And it's just so close. So whatever we think that they need to be. And if it's about a complex shade they're in, uh, usually I have them in for even for doing a 20 unit veneer case. We talk about the shade. I think patients it's it's a nice I hate to say it. I learned it a long time ago in New York City. It's a nice show for the patients as well. Yeah. Yep. Here's your ceramics. Yes, exactly. So every part of it, from taking the shade to design, I think the more eyes the better. So myself, the digital technician designing and the ceramics are all looking at the case together, a big screen, all giving comments. And sometimes we do the last final touches live together before we go to the filling. Wow. And I mean, can you imagine the quality of care that you can get with this type of collaboration. I think four eyes are better than two. Six eyes are better than that. I guess there's a number where it's not good, but I think these three people the dentist, the digital technician and the ceramics, those are great. Great to get together. Yeah, yeah. So they collaborate with that. And then I get to see the case in production. So in other words before we go like I get to check in bespeak just like this. Yep. Right I love that. And I could say you know what I see. And I could see a line angle that isn't where let's say I think it should be. But I'm not dogmatic, I am. I'm a I'm a collaborator. I enjoy us all getting together and all seeing what we see and seeing. And so we'll have a we'll have a debate. We'll say, well, you know, I don't think that should change like that. So we'll pull out. We have a box of models of real natural teeth that we've taken on our patients, and we'll look at anatomy together. We all learn every day because I think most dentists and most ceramicists especially, I mean ceramics technicians, but most technicians, especially because dentists, a lot of them don't really have a clear cut like tooth form in their head. Right? But we yeah, we all have different ones, don't we? Right. Like I you know, I like this line angle. I always have it in my cases and other people don't. I like this rounded distal. Other people don't. And in the end the patient decides. So the best way to collaborate in my mind. Is design a case together. Put it in the mouth as temporary. Fine. Tune it till the patient loves it. That's part of the process. I teach and give them a scan of that to work with. It doesn't mean it's perfect, but it's pretty close, in other words. We know the tooth form they're looking for, right? Whether it's a very severe look or rounded look or, you know, all that tapered. And we know the arch form. We know in size, alleged position. All those things don't have to guess. And I think a ceramicist it gives the whole idea is that it gives everybody confidence, the ceramicist, the patient and myself that we're going to deliver a case that meets the patient's desires. Yeah, it's like a blueprint to a house, you know, everything's up front. There's no guesswork. Sure, there's some tweak in here and there and some incisal translucency and halos and all of that. But the end result is that going in. You almost know they're going to be happy, or you pretty much know they're going to be happy with. Oh, I know it's it's like we're at 99%. Yep. If a patient doesn't say they love their temporaries, they have to say they love them. They don't love them. We're not going to go forward. And you said it was a blueprint. You're right. We call it the dual blueprint method. The first blueprint being the wax up. The second blueprint be the refined in the mouth to the patient's liking. So who do you blame at that 1% if you don't have a lab to blame? I knew that was coming. Obviously the technician are I kid you know it's it's you know they say the head of the fish stinks and all that stuff. So the or the buck stops here is probably more appropriate. In the end. It's my problem and I have to figure out where we went wrong. It's really hard for us to go wrong, to be honest with our process the way we do it. Um, somebody didn't do their job and in the end, it's for me. You know, labs have the quality control person in our lab. I'm the quality control person. Yeah, I said, sure looks good, guys. And I went to put in the mouth. I should have caught the errors beforehand and I should have. And again, it's very rare, but because we look at it from every angle to see if we're meeting the expectations of the patient. Have you ever had a patient where they were impossible to please, and you just have to call it and just be like, forget it. You know, there was one that. Right. Very early in the process, I made her a set of tests, and it was a very difficult case. You know, that was restored, like, you know, single implant, like, I think there was an implant bridge in the front, but it was on Mars, which I had never seen before, except for like full arch type of stuff. And the temp was a little off. I made her another set of tests and she was. It wasn't even that. It's not about being picky for me. I don't I don't have an issue with patients being picky. Yeah, I have an issue with patients not being nice. Yes. Yeah. There's a big said. Yeah, right. I allow I beg the patients for feedback and input into the case. We have a separate appointment where we just analyze the case with them and fine tune it until they love it. And because of that, I think it lowers the stress level for everybody. Heck, yeah. When you say, oh, yeah, that's great. We have a whole appointment for that. Come on in. Tell me what you don't like. And it's a dentist and a lab technician. We all have to be ready to hear it and willing to hear it and consider it part of the process instead of saying it's not part of the process. Yeah, like, let's plan for a collaborative approach and hope then then that input will come very nicely because it's expected. But if we put defenses up and we don't want to hear it, and the patient, this is the number one thing, I think in cosmetic reconstructive dentistry. And I'm going to say maybe in any relationship at all is people feeling hurt. Yeah. Well, right. Yeah. That's important. I mean and think about today, you know. You know, forget about politics or any social media. Very few people in this world feel heard. So if we want to really have patients become the raving fans that we want them to be and be happy with, they have to feel heard throughout the process and whatever we have our, you know, hands over our ears in any way. I think I think it's a failure. Yeah. Well, I think there's something to be said about being too heard. Mhm. I was in an office the other day and I kid you not, they have an in office lab technician. They're doing an all on for on X or whatever. And they were telling me that the patients coming in for their 27th trying. Oh no way. That's actually a thing. Are you kidding me? Yeah. I was blown away. And I said, why are you letting the patient be this nit picky? I mean, at some point you gotta just say. And they said, yeah, the first one was fine. I was like, unbelievable. Yeah. That's interesting. Often we hear in our profession, patients are crazy. Patients are crazy. I always like to fight for patients and say they're very few are actually crazy. True. But yeah, but but some are and and and I wonder I by the way, 27 just seems like that person's probably one of those. That's I do I agree. Yep. Right. I kind of blame the office a little bit for letting them get away with it. At some point you gotta you're allowing their expectations to go wild. I've gone up to three. I don't do try ins. And by the way, that's the thing most dentists don't have. I hate to say it, they don't have the waxing skills. If you, you know, it's usually 1 or 2 times, usually one every once in a while too. And on rare occasion, three. But that's the most. Uh, but adjust it then. Yeah. Like adjust the tooth position. Adjust the braziers. Oh. What are you looking for? And that's I leave a 30 minute process to play around. I could add and subtract to the temporaries or to A or an X. Try in if I did a denture try and I didn't like something. Not that I do dentures, but if I did, I'd go ahead and change the incisal edge position right there on the whether I do it with composite or move the teeth, however I want to do it and then send it back and say, this is what we want. And it's yeah, simple. I was going to say as soon as you said dentures, I said to myself, there's no way he does dentures. No way. One every three years. Yeah. Yeah. That's appropriate. Is that just because of Aspen in the area? Yeah. It's a different socio economic. Yeah, sure. I'm taking eights to tens versus taking like, twos to sixes and sevens. Eights. You know, that type of thing. That makes sense. Yeah, we do very little. All in all in X even. But, um, on occasion, I mean, I just played in arch recently, but it's very few. It's generally fully dental. It's not edentulous or fully dentate patients. When did you know, number one, first question, when did you realize that you wanted to teach other dentists. And then second question is how did you create and come up with your curriculum? Because it does sound like it's something specialized just to your teaching. Yeah. That's a those are great questions. It was a good buddy, Dave Sherburne who wanted his veneers done. Uh, Florida dentists, uh, Saint Pete, Florida. And he said, Andrew, uh, can you do my teeth? I said, sure. He said, you know, can you can you teach me how to do it? At the same time? Why don't we just grab a bunch of our friends and have, I don't know, 6 or 8 of us come for the two weekends and we'll have a blast. I'll have a new smile, and everybody will learn how to do it. Huh? And I said, okay, sure. And then before you knew it, there were people signing up and paying me for this, and I had to write a curriculum. So what am I? Guiding principles is begin with the end in mind, as we all know Stephen Covey. Mhm. And I did that. I said, well how am I going to teach them this. And I said, well I have to have a lecture on this, a lecture on this, I'm going to do a hands on component. In other words, people are going to get the lecture for the theory. They were going to do over the shoulder, uh, component that they're watching me do a case so they understand the prep. I mean, you could put slides up of preps all day long, but people want to see you prep ten teeth. Yeah, I want to see how that flows and how that goes. I want to see you terrorize it. Forget it. Slides are silly. I mean, lectures are fine, but you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Just why I, you know, wanted to see ceramics building things at the show. To me, you learn a lot about how hands move and just I don't know, there's something about seeing it. I learned to ski by. By skiing behind somebody, not by a lecture. Yeah. So I did an outline and I said, okay, great. I'm going to teach them all of these ideas. But there's a lot of ideas to teach somebody when you're teaching aesthetics and occlusion. Right, right. The idea of smile, that's great. Then the ideals of occlusion, that's great. And I'm very simple. I don't I don't try to get too complex to me. You know, it's centric relation fossa canine guidance. We're done. Right. Do we need, you know, a two year continuum on occlusion to teach that sometimes it seems like that's how they teach. But I'm a simplifier and these are the basics and these are the things that will work. And so we did that. But then I still realized that there's so many competing things. You you know, you know it. You know, I want to lengthen teeth, but then we have two of a bite. So how do we balance all of that? So one day on a plane flight. I don't know about you guys, but I do my best, like thinking and no distractions. Yeah. No, seriously, I can't get online. I do, I get a lot done on planes. Exactly. And I pulled up an Excel spreadsheet and wrote a mathematical formula for the perfect smile and bite. And the thing is, the inputs into it didn't exist. In other words, the measurements didn't exist. So I had to create the measurements. And I did that in a two hour flight. I came out and the it hasn't really changed at all since it explained to me math for. Yeah. I mean, is it like if the length of the tooth is this, then the other teeth need to be this long too? I mean, how does this work? It's interesting. I'll tell you what it. It spits out. It doesn't spit out the things, you know. It doesn't. It doesn't spit out tooth shape. It doesn't spit out. Embrace your form. You know that those type of details. Yeah. What it spits out is where do I have to put the tooth? In other words, do I have to build it out and think about the anterior teeth? Do I have to lengthen them? Do I have to bring them out at all? Do I have to change the. So it gives you length and AP changes to the tooth? In other words, the incisal edge needs to come out two millimeters. Something as simple as that. But what numbers are you putting in? I mean, the length of their nose. There are I mean, it's some of them, you know, like length of the incisor, but then display at rest, display at full smile. Gingival display. How far from the wet dry line there in central edges. So what we usually do just visually this is what you do, right? People do it visually, but when you're waxing in the lab you don't have the visuals in front of you, right? No, not at all. Would it be nice to say the incisal edge needs to come out two millimeters for the tooth to be vertical and to the wet, dry line. So it solves for ideal tooth position, as if you're setting up a denture tooth. And then at the end of all that, it also gets the you know, when I say it gets it tells you about occlusion, it doesn't tell you. Esparza. These are things you have to know, just like you have to know abrasions and and tooth form for aesthetics. But for the occlusal part, it tells you. By the way, it also tells you if you should change the lower in size ledge position. Right. In other words, lengthen it or shorten it. And and then lastly the last thing we solve for is vertical dimension. How much do we have to increase or or not? Uh, vertical dimension to have a a good amount of of guidance, but not too steep, not too right, not too shallow. Yeah. How can you change the length of a tooth before you find out if you need to open them up? Well, I start with aesthetics. Always interesting. Right. I know a lot of people want to start with function, but if you start with function, then you sort of end with function. I mean, you can't. Yeah, right. If you start with aesthetics and plan the aesthetic and size, the ledge position ideally first, then you could back in the occlusion aspects of it. Let's make a pretty smile and let's see what we have to do to to get the occlusion right after that. That does sort of kind of sound like a denture setup. It does. Did you always do eight and nine first and you put them in the proper area and then you build everything around that? Absolutely. And if you think about it, everything we need to know about aesthetics we learned in denture class Pretty much. Wow. Yeah. So it's a it's a really interesting idea. And it gives the lab a really good guidance. And we get very close to the ideal with our first set of temporaries. And we don't do a second set. We just adjust them. We just occlusion. We adjust you know contours we adjust length. So we might say oh they're a little too long for me okay. Oh my gosh a little bit. No, no. Some people want to go over every little line angle and that's fine too. But you need a dentist. And I wonder about that dentist at a 27 Tridents. Dentists have the skills needed to make adjustments to it. Or it sounds like if the patient didn't like it, he'd say, okay, I'll send it back. No in-house lab. And they were printing every single one in office. Wow. It's a lot of resin. Yeah. Which, you know, reminds me, how often is it that people are so wanting to do things digitally that they won't do the the thing that takes 10s to do in the analog world, it's either that or the complete opposite, where they try to do it on the computer and say, oh, I'll just do it after it, Mills or whatever. Right, right. That's true. Because they because they don't know very well. You're right. It's either one or the other. I took an XO cad course. That's a complicated software, if you ask me, I know. It gets easier to time, but I think a lot of people don't get what they want out of the software. And you're right. Do it. You know, I think it's easy if you're going to you're going to build up a unit afterwards. But if you expect to do a minimal cutback or even no cutbacks type of situation, I think it's a lot harder. Less so on or on X, because there's not the complexities of fitting it to the the prep and the gingiva that are there. Yeah. So this mathematical I love this idea. I mean, you must have done it a thousand times and it works almost every time. Is there ever a time it doesn't. Not very rarely. And even if it doesn't, it's telling you something. Is that a weird thing to say? No. Not really. Yeah. Yeah. And it's very interesting. The shocking thing about it for me, even to this day, is. I wrote it once and didn't have to edit it, so it's the exact same way. And it works right every time, and you just keep replicating and duplicating the same process over and over and over and over. And then you teach it to young docs and they're able to do the same thing. Yes, you said young docs. On occasion I get to teach an old doc a new trick. Oh, I bet they love that. They do? They do. It's kind of funny. I had a somebody that taught by Larry Rosenthal, who I was trained under to many, many years ago. He took my course and he was he was really it was about the algorithm for him. He knew he wanted to learn this algorithm. And when he took the course in between the two, you know, he saw a lot of patients and he came back. And I always ask everybody, what, what what changed in your practice in the last month since I saw you? Like what? What cases have you done differently or. Or what? Even conversations. That's a great question. Yeah, right. I'm always interested. And there's always one person at the course that says nothing. Yeah. And that you're out of here. I'm here for the credit. I just wasted a lot of money. And I wanted to come to Aspen. Right? Right. But, you know, there's personality types that don't implement fast, so I. I thought that was very interesting. And I thought about it. It's not my fault, but I started I wrote a bunch of how to get the most ROI out of your C kind of. I wrote a series about that because having seen so many people and most people are in a group, you know, if they teach, they teach with 50, 60, 70 people. I teach only ten at a time. So I really get to know and care about each one and make sure they're learning. But there's personality types that don't necessarily they're not very good at implementing even things they know. Yeah. And I'm right in the middle. So I get both sides. When the doctors come to the courses. Do they ever bring assistance or anything? No, because there's so much over the shoulder. I mean, when I say no once in a while they can come to the lectures, but over the shoulder is in a large operatory and we fill it with dentists. If I had a bigger operatory, I'd fill it with more dentists. Yeah, true. Yeah. And I don't do. I could stream it to all the TVs in the office and have people sitting elsewhere, but that's just not the kind of course I want. I want a very intimate course. Yeah, I was talking about the dentist, one of the dentists, when he came. Oh, they gave you the feedback? Yeah, yeah. He said, Andrew, the only problem is every case they went to put in because it's a very accomplished cosmetic dentist in his own right. He said every case that I went to put in, I had to send back to the lab for them to remake it, because I realized how wrong I'd been doing things for so many years. Oh, I'm sure that made the lab happy. Yeah, I'm sure he paid him. He's not a he's not he's a he's one of the good guys I know sometimes. People. You know, sometimes the texts don't love us, Dennis, but I think there's good dentists that are understand how much effort and how hard it is to do what you guys do. And then there's others that take it for granted and just, you know, yeah, I get it. I've seen them. But you must love them. You buy them houses. I mean, come on. But but I don't understand. What did he mean by that. So. So he sent it back for a remake because he did it wrong, and now he knows how to do it correctly. So that doesn't happen anymore. Yeah. So he was putting in a case and maybe realize that the incisal edge position was way off. He's not blaming his lab, so I'm sure he knows it was his mistake. Yeah. And how he planned it. So I'm sure he very generous, you know, not very generously. He just did the right thing, which is pay the lab to remake it, which says something that a. Oh, yeah, you know, his ethics, that if he knows better, he'll do better. And I just think that's amazing. And that, you know, somebody might say, okay, I'll get it better on the next case, right? He said, no, I'm going to redo these cases. And that's just, that's I think says a lot about him as a person. I really have a lot of respect for him. Oh, great. Did you just do the math wrong. Is that I forgot to carry the one or. No. No, this was he was he started these cases before he took the course. Oh, right. So then he saw the algorithm and he believed it. Oh that's the other thing I think that was it's a testament to besides his like character, but also, um, the algorithms, you know, convincing this once you know it and understand it. Mhm. So is it like a software. Obviously it's a lecture. But when you talk about the algorithms do you actually input it. The dentist inputs it and it and it figures it out for them in conjunction. I put it on an Excel spreadsheet. It's very doable. But as a software, I mean, I can make an app for it, but I'm gonna say, where's the app? Yeah, it's an easy app. But there's also it's as simple as filling out the the measurement form that we give you. Fill out the top with the measurements at the bottom. You go from left to right and, you know, do the math. Uh, it's it's not it's not that complex. You know, the greatest ideas in life are simple. And this is my greatest idea in life is a simple formula that figures out very competing things right inside the edge position, like, oh, how do you start with that? And then go to function? But it's very easy. It goes in the right order and everything is ordered correctly on the sheet. What is this? And our newest version actually tells you take this and da da da da da da and do this, you know, tells you the math instead of having to remember it or going back to the lecture. I do it, you know, because I know how to do the math, right. It tells you, you know, have you ever thought about teaching this to labs so we can talk to our doctors about getting the information for more success? Yeah, but the docs don't know it yet. They have to take my course. I think about, like, um, like, uh, I don't want to say, what's the term like? Um. You know, we're called cosmetic competence coaching, CCie approved labs that understand it. I've had that come and and take our course just for fun. I don't I don't, I don't I tend not to charge lab techs. I you know, I actually I tend not to I've never charged a lab tech. Uh, it's usually a lab tech I know, and I like online. I say, come on down, you know? Yeah. Hang out. For some reason, I always find room for a lab tech. I won't find rooms for assistants. I won't find them. The course is sold out. You can't pay me to get into it. But I find room for a lab tech. Because you know what? The lab tech knows that they'll stand outside the room. You know, they don't need to learn the prepping as much as. But if there's room, they'll pop in. They'll. Sure. I mean, I think of somebody, uh, the last person who came, and he's like, hey, Andrew, can I check your. Can I look at your preps, too? I'm like, come on in. But if he was sitting in that room the whole time, it's, you know, the capacity is ten people. Yeah. By 11 it's getting a little tight. So I think they're understanding that they're guests, but we treat them as every other one. They eat our meals with us, they come out to dinners with us and it's always fun. We like, um, I don't know, I have a thing for lab Texas. The truth. Well, that's why you're on the podcast. Yeah, yeah. Well, Elvis. Yeah, he asked about how you train them, and I was thinking about how brilliant it is that you're expanding your laboratory so that your dentists can utilize your lab techs that already understand what you're teaching. Think about how long it takes to learn something. Sometimes it's repetitive, Competitive like feedback, right? When you train one of your lab techs in your office and you have a thing that you you know your style. We all have styles one way or the other, and it's sometimes it takes repetitiveness. So I'm sure I could teach lab techs, but I think my dentists are going to get the best result if I, if I'm still overseeing the the crew. Agree. Damn. Yeah. So have you hired more technicians or. We have somebody starting in two weeks? I, I've quite the you know we've we've got a a lot of applicants but um yeah I it's it's it's hard to find the talent I'm looking for and I don't people don't have to be like the most amazing artisan technicians. Uh, I to be honest, we're very simple with our build up techniques, and and they're not complex, but they need good eyes for line angles and things like that. They need to be good players. There's a lot of things they need, but, you know, it's hard to find the people I'm looking for. What I'm really looking for the dream. My dream is that the same person, and this is so rare to find these talents designs the case and does the porcelain. Yeah. You know what? That is rare. You're right. Yeah, but some of the best labs in the world, that's the case. And the reason that is, is because and I know you've seen it, I think you even alluded to it a little bit ago is, oh, why didn't you why why is the design not perfect? And now I have to do all this work. In the. After the fact. Yeah. Right. And they're not giving each other what they need. There's something about if you're doing both parts, you're going to give yourself what you need. Mhm. Yeah. Right. To make the contact spot on. So you don't have to spend as much time grinding them. You're going to make the shape a little better. As good as you can make it on XO CAD before you go and mill. And this way there's less work physical world. How did you choose exo CAD versus some other softwares? You know we have three shape two if somebody is a three shape person. But the technicians I, I try to let my technicians choose things like that for sure. I mean, there is enough. I'm trying to get them into a certain philosophy, a certain, you know, unworn tooth form, straight teeth. When I say straight, I don't mean like, not natural. But in other words, my goal for my patients and my patients goals, I know they are are teeth that looked like they already had orthodontics. Not that they didn't have. Yeah. Yeah. And people, especially European ceramics, will criticize me for that or criticize me for doing bleach shades or, you know, believe me, they'll criticize me for anything. You know how it can be. Oh, yeah. For sure. If people just look right. Yeah. And this is my argument to all of those. If they could go get Invisalign and a whitening and get Straight BL three teeth. Then when they're spending the kind of money they're spending with me, they deserve that at least. Or if a box of white strips will get them to a BL three for 50 bucks when they're spending 50,000 or whatever they're spending. It's the least I could give them is the shade that they want. Do I want the depth and translucency of a natural? When I say natural, you know, a enamel BL three. Of course I do. I want all of that. But the idea that I know I have a good friend who's in all an ex buddy, and he says he will never do below a B1. It's a travesty. And da da da. And he's like, you could do it on veneers, but I can't do it on all inks. And I think that's a little silly personally. Yeah, whatever they want. Yeah. And if you're not getting the life like look at a year's zirconia and staining or layering technique, then maybe work on that. Instead of saying they can't have it because I've seen I, we did a BL one case that looked gorgeous and that's not what I like to do. Uh, I like to be more in the BL three range or b I'm B1 myself. I mean b1 emax, which is probably a hair lighter in reality. You know, when you mill those, they're, they're not quite true. And I and people love my smile and then they, they choose to be L-3. Yeah that's fine. I wanted a little bit brighter, doc. Yeah, exactly. Who did your work? My mentor, Jeff McClanahan. Yeah. My mentor. I flew in, and our lab did it. Of course. But he prepped my teeth and and, uh, adjusted my occlusion and all that good stuff. And I tell you, if people say occlusion doesn't matter, it's the biggest bull I've ever heard. Yeah. My neck discomfort of dentistry went away as soon as my occlusion was adjusted. So the the pain you get from bending over and looking down went away because of your occlusion? Yes. Immediately. My neck has not hurt in a year or so. What has it been a year in? Interesting. Uh, yeah. It wasn't this year. Yeah, it's been a year and a few months. Is that because you're not biting down? And I just don't understand how that works. Yeah. It's amazing. It's. The body's very connected, right? We all know the song. I don't sing it for you. When the posture of the jaw and the TMJ helps predicate the posture of the head on C1 and occiput, so it changes the entire posture of your neck right there. It was instant. It was shocking. Is that part of the formula? Well, see, or you know, CR is just, uh, where we're working from, so it's not it doesn't need to be math. It's one of those things. Just like fossa doesn't have to be there. To me, occlusion is, like I said, it's cr Your canine guidance in case I don't try not to get too much more complicated than that because. And my mentor will. He gets into the I don't want to say the weeds because I don't think they're weeds at all, but I think it's that simple. And I'm so dumb I have to keep it simple. And yeah, my the good thing is my students appreciate that because I have all the dumb people come to me to learn and I get the, you know, just enough information to not be dangerous, but I actually get great results. We've got great success over the years. So you say you have like about ten students. So you have one patient and it's your patient. And then you go through the whole protocol as they are watching you. Just the one patient. A lot of the live patients, you know, each dentist brings a patient. But it sounds to me like it's your patient yourself. And then the students. Exactly. And the you know, that's the over-the-shoulder part you're discussing where I'm treating the patient. Then there's lecture components to go over all the theories and everything that we usually do the lecture first, and then they get to see me do it on a patient. And then there's also hands on. In other words, there's exercises that they're doing. They're learning to take the records, the measurements center correlation, all of those things. So that and then they work up each other's cases on their articulator in between. So there's a lot of components and oh, I love that. Right. That's cool. I think Dennis should wax more themselves. Not to take away work from you guys because it's called a diagnostic wax up. And I think the dentist should diagnose the case, the occlusion. I think that makes a lot of sense. I mean, I do too. Right. We're just making it ideal to what we think is ideal. And what I also urge them to do. They learn so much about occlusion by waxing a case. They also learn how to adjust things in the mouth if they have to. If you can't do it in wax, or when I say wax sometimes most of my students and even myself, oftentimes we're waxing composite. It's just a material we're more familiar with. Mhm. Neither here nor there, but especially if they're using global composites to wax the case. Then when they go into the mouth to adjust the temporaries and say, oh, I want to adjust this line angle, they can add and wax in the mouth as well. That's pretty brilliant. How often do you do these classes? Yeah, we do them just twice a year. Once in the spring, once in the fall. Yeah, because you're shutting down for four days, right? Yeah. Two. Yeah. It's a Thursday and Friday. So we really only take one day out of the week, but we do it in those times because that's when Aspen slower. I have a little more time in my schedule. I'm not swamped with big cases as much. Yeah. And I find it a perfect time to to to do that instead. And. It's just wonderful. And then they come back, right? So then you get everything ready and then they come back. What, in like three weeks to see you see them usually wait a month. So that's two days. And then a month later two days. Wow. Yeah. And and that's perfect because our process is prep and then have them back. I usually like to have them back to for the to adjust their temporaries 3 to 5 days later. But for the course we'll do it the next day for convenience of the students. And then at insert it's insert and a post-op to fine tune the bite and maybe find some extra cement that you left behind, things like that. So they get to see all of that and and so much more. Really. Wow. It's really a great course. You're doing these out of Emacs. Yes. We're I'm 100% New Mexico I know is the way everybody's going. But I just love my Emacs. Um, are you pressing or milling or. We do both. We have we have both setups and depending on the situation. But we're trying to move more to milling and we're we're working on that. That's why I was at Lab Day looking for the the ideal Emacs mill a lot. Anything could mill zirconia. I don't say anything, but a lot of mills could. Mills, zirconia. Imax is just so much more temperamental. Yeah, well, I know what Barb recommends. I know I was I was going to ask you. So in the ingot selection, does your ceramics come in and recommend like is a MT or an Lt or a high translucency or do you mostly use the medium translucency ingots or do you kind of are you all over the place? I'm a systematic, boring guy. I like to do things. Yeah. Every day. You thought so. So I'm empty all day long. Give me Imax. Yeah. Me too. Right? Yeah. H we know h cheese issues, right? It's so low value. And air gets power over time and light. You might as well do a PFM. Bingo. Yeah, we use all MTS occasionally. I do, but not very often. And I never do a full mouth case out of it. Maybe it's like a single central or a lateral, but yeah, I'm definitely an Imax fan. You mentioned kite. Are you using Meo? We use Meo as our surface, but we're, you know, we micro layer. Yeah. It's not you know, it's a very real simple micro layering situation. And what we've done is again, we're doing mostly these big cases. We might change everything when we're doing a single unit like you mentioned, but we do a lot of ten and 20 unit cases. So we've created our own shade guides out of our Emacs layer, the way we layer, so that we can be pretty accurate with what shade we're, we're going to, you know, the shade guides that people use are just they're silly. They have no semblance to reality. So how easy is it to have a patient choose from our actual our custom shade guide made out of the materials that that we use every day? Yeah, which is pretty darn smart because they don't change. You know, if you know when it's an MTB three, it's the same thing that you're going to be milling it out of. So that's that's pretty awesome. Yeah. Consistency. That's my big thing. Yeah. No surprises. Yeah. So wait I think you'll like this PGP precision process for predictability and profit. Mm. Love it. Right. Every time we redo something we're losing money. Oh 100 my world. In your world. Right. You don't want anything spend back. That's why I'm sure you charge extra for the single central. That's why I charge extra because I know I'm going to be redoing it. You're going to be doing it 3 or 4 times. Oh, I hate those. Even when the lab guys in the same building, you still do it 3 or 4 times. Exactly. Yeah. I went from charging in New York City when I didn't have a lab tech in the office. I used to charge double for a single central, and now I charge one and a half times. Yeah. Good call. Yeah, because a little bit easier. Usually we can custom stain it and get it going right there. At least it's only a little extra chair time versus. Redoing it because of the Wronging it again, we took a shade tab picture with our empty shade guide. Not not their shade guide. Their shade guides kind of you know it's not it's not layered at all. It's not it's not glazed at all. And it's something about using those tabs that really help us get closer quicker. Yeah. Regular shade guides look like denture teeth. Yeah. No. Reality. And what do you guys press or mill? Very. I mean, you know, a minimal prep will press something that that just has just a sometimes when the doctors do veneers and they cut it all the way to the lingual and it's impossible to mill out, we'll press those. But I try not to if I can avoid it. We do have 2 p.m. sevens. Oh, and they're amazing. You can pretty much get anything to mill, but occasionally I'm just not a fan of cutting down the freaking pressed units, and it's just kind of a nightmare. And it takes a lot longer. But yeah, so so a little bit of both. Oh, cool. Mostly. Mostly milling. Yeah. And the pe7. I know, it's amazing and I've been eyeing it. I hear it's very picky with its air. Right? It has That's perfect air at all times, or else it'll not be happy. Yeah, but if you maintain it well and give it the er, it wants it. I hear it, Mills. Amazingly. It's literally we, my technicians take really good care of those mills, and they make sure that they change the stuff that they're supposed to change and that they've got good burrs. And yeah, our air pressure is pretty regular here in my lab. And but I recommend them highly. They're unbelievable. I love them. Okay. Yeah I know they're expensive, but, you know, sometimes you gotta you gotta bite that bullet if you want that predictability and the profit. I love the peas, but. Yeah, so I would, I recommend it. Awesome. Just don't ask her about the oven that she uses. Oh, yeah, I know I do have a very old oven. Well, that's all the mills are good. You know what? You have the old oven because it works and you like it. Yes. Thank you. Right. It works. If it didn't work, you wouldn't be using it. I'm pretty confident of that. Bingo. You know, and Elvis had to bring that up. I had to, uh, tease her. Nice. Well, Doctor Turchin, I think that's some pretty amazing stuff you're doing in Aspen. I had no idea you're teaching so many other dentists. Oh, it's fun this unique way. Yeah. How do they find you? Twice a year. How do they find you? Do you have a website? Obviously, yeah. Cosmetic confidence coaching. Where is it? Yeah, right. Cosmetic conference coaching. Yeah. We know. I think it's cosmetic. What's my website? Oh my God. Pretty much. Let's see. No, we're leaving it in. That's funny cause cosmetic coaching.com. Yeah. Cosmetic coaching.com. Right. Yeah. Love it. And they find us there and I you know I teach in different organizations. So they hear about my course and things like that from dental clinical pearls dental success network to practice on fire. I'm kind of they're all their cosmetic educators online. So they you know, they like my posts. They like my work. They say, I gotta try this teaching course. I love it 90% of the time. They love it 10%. They do nothing different back at the office. Yep. Hopefully it's a little less than that. It sounds amazing. Before we sign off, I want to know if there's somebody listening out there that is really good at XO CAD and really good at ceramics and wants to live in Aspen. Are you looking? Yes, yes. Always looking for a great talent. It sounds like an amazing experience for someone that's got those skills. Yeah, especially for somebody that loves. I always think they have to love to ski or bike or do one of those outdoors things to. Not that it's and you know, some of the best fly fishing in the world and all of that stuff. Oh yeah. Not that it it has to be, but. Aspen's a place. That's what Aspen is about. And for somebody to pick up and move across the country and come to Aspen. I think they I think it's best when they like those things as well or want to try them. I'm agreeing with you 100%. I might just be that girl. Yeah. What are you. What's skier? Are you skier? Hell, yeah. I'm a skier. Oh, nice. And fisherman. Ceramicist. But I don't know exo cad. So. But I'm going to learn it. There you go. We have three shapes. Let's not forget, we have three. I don't give her a few months. Right? That's right. But, you know, that's my dream person. If it's just a pure digital person right now, we have. You know, I'd say we have to steer towards that because our, our team now is, is kind of more analog right now. And I need a little digital talent for sure. Although I have an amazing designer in Greece that I use. Don't tell anybody. But yeah, I just, you know, I loved his work and he's just been amazing to work with. It took some time to learn my style, but what I love about him, he's one of those people that are really good at making libraries are. I hired him to make our libraries, and he made us custom libraries based on our favorite natural teeth in the practice. I love that. Yep. So helpful. And yes, you know, we're starting with something real. Instead of trying to create real, you know. Awesome. Doctor Turchin, thank you so much, man. Thank you. Thanks for having me. And it was a real pleasure. Yeah. Thank you so much. And good luck. Next lab day. Stop us. Say hi. Awesome. Take care, guys. We'll talk to you later. Thank you. A big thanks to Doctor Turchin for coming on our podcast and sharing your story and your philosophy, which is pretty amazing. We, Elvis and I and our whole industry are big fans of in-office technicians, and it sounds like you have an amazing opportunity for somebody to really grow their skill set and also help out a lot of people. Maybe you even know a doctor that could use his help when planning cases, and if so, send them to cosmetic coaching. Com and maybe they will finally give you what you need. Meaning more and better skills to treat them, which I love. We can only do as good as what we get. You know it. So. All right, everybody, that's all we got for you. Barb, go do your grandmother duties. I will. Thank you. Talk to you next week. Have a great week, guys. Bye. How's the baby? Ah. He's good. He's so cute. The views and opinions expressed on the voices from the bench podcast are those of the guests, and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the host or voices from the bench, LLC.