Looking for a way to unlock the full potential of your digital dentistry workflow. I'm Elise Heathcote, associate manager of digital services with Everclear. I'm excited to introduce you to Cam Academy. I have a new in-person training experience designed specifically for dental technicians. This hands on course explores the full potential of programmable Cam software, helping you take your digital workflow to the next level. Learn directly from our experts, refine your skills, and bring new precision and efficiency to your lab. Cam Academy is more than a course. It's your next step in digital excellence. To reserve your spot. Visit the Everclear Academy website or contact your local Everclear sales representative today. Welcome to voices from the bench, a dental laboratory podcast. Send us an email at info at voices from the bench and follow us on Facebook and Instagram. Greetings and welcome to episode 394 of voices from the bench. My name is Elvis. My name is Elvis's partner, Barbara. How are y'all? I think you're just Barbara. I know, but I like to mix it up a little bit. It's Friday night. I had a cup of cocktails, like, work with me. Oh, we have that Barbara today. Yeah. You do? Yeah. You do. Nice. And Taylor Swift. Barbara. Mhm. Yeah. Are you liking the new album? I know it's your thing. So y'all need to listen to wood and let me know what you think. Okay. Well I don't think you have any idea what that means, but those of you that listen to the podcast, that might be Taylor Swift fans, listen to that song and you should let me know what you think. I've been doing a fair amount of full arches here in Indiana. I've been kind of getting really busy with these things. I've been doing a fair amount of ten unit smile design cases and I'm just like, ah, a lot, a whole lot, Elvis. Everything you do is on a prep, right? You don't get into one unit, don't get into blood and implants and no, but I did actually go yesterday to one of my best accounts and seated a ten unit case, and she wanted me to tweak on number seven a little bit. And I love that. I love getting out of lab talking to patients. She was love, love her new smile design and it just makes me so fulfilled. So yes, I do occasionally get out of the lab and do that. So I get what you're saying. Yeah, I did a surgery yesterday and they had to tell the patient to stop dancing. I mean, she was fully flapped bone reduction, and she's waving her fingers around and bebop into the music. And it's probably because she was listening to Taylor Swift, but I'll give you that, I guess. But I gotta say, I've been doing so many of these arches that I actually ended up getting a micron mapper photogrammetry camera. Good for you. I love this thing. It's a game changer. So we were always doing Gamma Tree, which we talk a lot about on this podcast and everything fit. I mean, everything was good, but it just wasn't great. You know, it wasn't 100% passive, but this thing literally takes seconds to get the records, and everything so far is absolutely dropping in. Wow, I can't recommend this thing enough. I don't recommend a lot of equipment on this podcast, but I gotta say, the Micron Mapper has totally changed my job. It's amazing. Now the only downside is it's too fast. I don't really get a chance to enjoy using it that much, but worth it. We got ours through CIN 360. We had them on the podcast a couple of years ago. I'm going to go ahead and put a link up on the show notes if anyone's interested. I think you should. It's it's amazing because honestly, you hear about equipment, but when you know somebody like you, Elvis, that actually uses it and says, hey, it's really great, I think I'll shout out to the company. So good. All right. The countdown continues. Nowak Dental Supplies Lab Fest is right around the corner. Thank you to. Eight eight North America. Of course, I and I alone because I know crews at that same time. It's all good. I'm going to have crews. Yep. Setting up and recording. Anyone willing to sit down and chat. Now it's all happening in New Orleans on November 6th to the eighth. Now, for those of you that are fans of the old ladies of the mill events, actually, Thursday night is all about ladies of the mill. They have a couple speakers, a couple cocktails, and a whole lot of fun. A couple speakers I think I saw Mandy and Brittany that are going to be there and speaking. So shout out to you too. Good job. I wish I was there, it's going to be a lot of fun. So everyone, if you haven't already, time is running out. Spaces are filling up. Nola Fest. Com to register and book a room. I'm jealous. That's all right. You'll be missed. I know. So this week we meet a Canadian dental technician, lab owner, president of the Dental Technician Association of British Columbia, an accordion player and master of all things digital design. Will Varda Will comes on and starts an amazing story about his dad becoming a dental technician at the age of 12. And let's just say this story involves plaster impressions and goat horns. Goat horns. Then he talks about his own journey growing up in a lab, learning from his father, getting a degree in something else, and then of course, coming back to the lab just in time for it to grow with digital. Now he owns a lab, and he's on a mission to pull the technician community together and to teach the fundamentals of digital on a cruise ship. A cruise ship? Yeah. So join us as we chat with Wil Varda. Voices from the bench. The interview. So we are super excited today to talk to a gentleman that, you know, I've known about you for a long time. We've messaged, we've chatted on social media, but I don't think we've ever met. I don't know why we have a strong meme relationship. I think that's true. That's true. There is a bond there. Emojis back and forth. Yeah, it's just strange. Out of all the shows we probably both go to, I don't think we've ever run into each other, but let's introduce you, Will Vada. Am I saying that right? Right. That's right. That's it. That's from British Columbia, Canada. I am very excited, guys. This. I've had a couple highlights in my career, but this is finally, finally means I made it. You know, from the bench that's like Trump's Trumps the rest of my accomplishments and my failures. We'll see how it goes. And then when I asked you to come on, you said, well, all my other friends have been on, so it's about time. Oh, yeah. Well, I looked you up and you're pretty awesome. I see you on. I have a car and I see you on the insurance. And you're the president of an association, so you're a big deal. Ah, it's a it's a small. It's a small community. Yeah. I spend way too much time not working and screwing around on the internet and also too much time working. And I should probably have a hobby in life and things like that. So a hobby that's not teeth. Yeah, I mean I have I okay, I do have plenty of those but man Mandy why I ever spend a lot of time chatting with people but it's it's the best. It's the best because I think it's so easy to feel like like you're alone, you know, in your life and your struggles are yours. And I mean, the amazing thing about this podcast and just in general, social media, dental is like, no, we're all in this together. And every lab, I'm realizing is kind of the same. Yeah. Like we we all have the same issues. We all have the same everything. It's it's amazing. So it's I mean, yeah, that's why it's so important. So will we always like to kind of find out how. People get into this crazy mess that we all end up being about the same. Yeah. Yeah. It's about your dad and how you got into this. And what led you to our crazy industry? I mean, you guys know, describing it to people that no one knows that our job exists, basically, right? They do after they spend two minutes with me. Yeah. Sir, this is a Wendy's. I know, but I'm a dental technician. So I it's it's a field that. That's why there's so many families involved. Because I would never I could have lived a thousand lifetimes. And that wouldn't have picked this field out of a hat, you know? Yeah, I'm very grateful to be in it, but it's one of the it's one of those things. So many people are born and born into it. So I grew up there was a lab in my house, like I had my childhood bedroom. And then down the hall was, uh, was a plaster room. My dad just, uh, solo work. And he had a, uh, casting machine in the shed outside and from a from a very young age. I was in, you know, dental offices with deliveries. And it was part of my world was like, as long as I remember. How did your dad learn it? Yeah. Tell us a little bit about your dad. Yeah. So my dad is from Iran, and he was 12 years old, and he wanted to go work in the toy factory. Who wouldn't at 12? Who wouldn't? I don't I don't blame him. And my grandfather was like, no way. I don't know why he said no way. But he was like, no way. You're not doing that. I have a friend who's a dental technician and you're going to go work for him. So my dad went there at 12 and 12 and man the stories. It was a different world. It was like a century ago when you talk about, you know, milling and, oh, there's this new 3D printer and this new resin and the fields moving so fast. But if you look over two generations, you're like, oh my God, I mean. I'm going to describe to you guys how they made the crown, as best as I understand it. I'm talking with my dad. Please do. I'm sorry. This is like a different universe. My dad started wearing this guy at 12, and my grandfather would. He would actually pay the guy and tell the guy to give the money to my dad as a paycheck, because the guy didn't really need a 12 year old running around in his lab. So my grandfather would give him money and say, you know, pay my son every, you know, week or month or whatever. And so he's like, he's working and he's doing something right. Um, so in this lab, the lab was in the basement of the dentist house, and this dentist worked for a lot of the, uh, Iranian royalty. So the Shah's family. Yeah. And, um, and, uh, this is juicy. Yeah. So it feels long, man. It's, uh. So. So they would work in the basement of this of this dentist house. He was quite well known. And, you know, dentistry, I'm sure, was super expensive. Yeah. And only for sort of, sort of the elites. The dentist was a was an opera singer, and my dad said he would sing like he would take 2 or 3 showers a day. And as they're working downstairs, this dentist is singing opera in his bathroom. Oh my God. That's awesome. So what is this, like, the 70s or 80s or. No, early. This would be. That'd be like the 50s. 50s? Yeah, like late 50s. Okay. The way this guy would make crowns. And I think this was peak technology at the time. They would take an aluminum tray and they would fill it with plaster. Just plaster. Plaster. And they would put that in the mouth and hard plaster would set around the teeth and the dentist. Yeah. And I guess the dentist, the first impression was plastic. That would be the impression. Holy. Mhm. Okay. Yeah. I got questions about undercuts but I'm going to let them go. Yeah. So the dentist would you know attempt to block out undercuts. But I mean my god imagine having plaster set around your teeth thinking it might yank your teeth out. I'm sure it did. And and certainly part of the service. No. Yeah. Here's a new denture for you, sir. Wow. Okay. Yeah. And so this plaster would set, and, you know, they would just take a little quadrant, just the the Jason teeth. There are a couple teeth. Right. And then they would, you know, inevitably be breaking it out and it would come in pieces and then you would glue back together the pieces of the plaster to give your impression. Now for the prep. The prep would be a metal cylinder that they would fill with some kind of hot compound. My dad described it as like, you know, like a letter that would be sealed with a seal, kind of like a plastic. Oh, like a wax kind of thing. Yeah. Some compound. Maybe it's something similar to, like, denture. Like the green stick? Oh, yeah. Something like that. They would fill this hot thing and again. Imagine being a patient with some kind of hot plastic wax being put on your prep. Hot with God knows what, you know. Painkillers. Well, we've been doing this for seven years and have never heard that. Spectacular. They would fill this cylinder with this this compound that was hot, and they would smoosh it on the prep. So now you've got this compound that has an impression of the prep, and you have this plaster broken into pieces that is the adjacent teeth. Hmm. So they would take this cylinder of metal and they would pour inside of it. I'm sure those steps are missing. Obviously, the inside of it led. Oh my gosh. So they make a lead die really hot. Then they would take the lead, die, and they would stick it inside of that plaster impression where the die is. Right. The. Yeah. The plaster impressions that stick it inside their put separator and make a model. So now you've got a model with like two adjacent teeth and a lead dye sticking out of it. That was like a gallery kind of model, right? Like a removable die. Oh, yeah. Then they take a gold crown and they would flatten it into a sheet like a previously made crown. Yeah. Like a like a gold gold crown, you know, issued from the shore, I'm sure, with the shore's face on it, the lion on the back. Oh, and clad in this gold crown. Cut it to the size of the of the prep. And then bend it around the. This metal die like a like a like wrapped like a cylinder. Does sound like Caltech. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, something like that. And then they would solder up the one side. So now they have a gold tube that goes over this die. Then they would cut another piece of gold like a cylinder of gold that would go inside like on the occlusal surface of the prep. And they would solder that in place and the margins, they would just cut with scissors or something. There's no power tools, right? These are hand pieces. Right. So you would just adapt this, this gold best you could to the margins. And then you had a the you had a hammer that of course. And the hammer. My dad said it had to be made from a goat's horn. What. It had to it had to like it was that was it was essential because the ghost horn had the right properties to make a good crown. Well, that's been my problem this whole time. I've been using cow horn. This is. This is why we talk, you know, we pick up tips and tricks. You know, we can take back to our labs at the end of the day. So the goat's horn is important. So you would you would hammer. And now you have this cylinder with this occlusal piece, like, stuck down the bottom of cylinder. And you would hammer down with this goat's horn, I guess, burnish somehow the margins. Yes. Hammer down the cusps. Yep. Wow. Wow. And then you take this off of the metal. Die. And inside, you know, I'm sure it just looks like hell. It looks like a tube of metal with a disc of metal in the occlusion, and it just hollow. So you would go and then solder that all to be one piece on the, on the inside. Then you put it down. You do your hammering. You're using hand files right to kind of file it and shape it. And then you take like a screwdriver, like a some kind of screwdriver thing and you'd hammer the anatomy into the occlusion. Oh, oh, I love that. And fill the rest of it with solder or something. And so I mean, that's, that's as far as, as I understand, they would make 1 to 2 crowns a week. Oh, and they'd be working on those things the whole time. Yeah. In the basement of this dentist house who's singing opera nonstop above you, showering three times a day. And you know what's amazing? And this is sort of a, you know, a general thought about work in general and the idea of efficiency and productivity and growth. Is that those 1 or 2 crowns. A week was enough for this dental technician to live a very nice life, support his whole family, go to the Caspian Sea on vacation for 2 or 3 months a year and wow, support everyone. 2 or 3 crowns a week. That's insane. Yeah. And now we're cranking them out, like, uh. Like God knows what. You know? Really? Yeah. We can barely make ends meet, and I'm doing 300 of them. So hold on. So that's how they did it in the fifth. So that's how they did it. And they run in the 50s. So when you know, and I ran. Yeah. I think they were casting here in the 50s. I don't know. You know and I think that was a that was a transitional time when they did casting. Apparently they did some casting for some other things. And that would be the casting with, you know, the the centrifuge would be your arm and you'd have a chain, right? Oh, I've seen that you would cast. So they did some cast, like Whip it around the gold crowds were done like this. And my dad said at the end, they look beautiful somehow. I don't know how, but he said they looked beautiful and they did some casting. Another crazy, the balloon that was filled with alcohol and air. And you hand pump it with your foot and then you cast this thing and then swing it over your head, or anyway. So that was one generation ago. So, you know, we can say, and he was doing this at the age of 12. You know, that there's a you know, that Parks and Rec show that Ron Swanson. Yeah. Those funny quotes is like one of his quotes was, uh, child labor laws are ruining this country. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. He's like, well, if you knew what I was doing back when I was. I mean, imagine you're pouring leather all day, too. Right. Yeah. Wow. I do like the idea of a metal die, though. I mean, it'd be pretty nutty. Benefits. Pretty nice to adapt a crown of metal. Die. Now, now we have these lousy plastic pieces of garbage. They bend and chip. Yep. So your dad just told you that today, or did he tell you that previous? I knew it from before, but I called them just before this. They, like, remember the details of how they did it. So. So anyways. Yeah, I mean, that's one generation. And, you know, my dad still healthy and kicking. He's been retired for maybe ten years. Ten years plus kind of ten, 15 something. Does he micromanage you or not at all? Not into the lab and say, hey, what's going on? No. Ten, ten years he's been one 100% out. Good for him. So let's follow the story because this was in Iran. Were you born in Iran? No, no, I was I would go to this lab. I was born in California, actually. So, um, so how did he get over to Canada? So he he came to New York with his family. They kind of escaped. They had to do military service, and the family fled. Yeah, there's a whole story and. Sure. Of course. And, uh. And so my dad came here and he was 16, and he started making dentures in their house for all of his family, friends. And my dad was soon making more money than anyone else in his family by a long shot. He just making these underground dentures, uh, in the family apartment. Yeah. That's insane. Right? For everyone. And, um, so they came over here, they landed in New York, and he was making dentures at his house. Yeah. Yeah, for for all the family friends. So he was doing that, and then he got a job in the lab and then moved to California, and he's working with, um, I don't know if you heard the Elliott loft near. No. Um, there's, like, some dental tools named after him. Oh. Oh. And then, you know, the ceramics started happening, and he was there as they were experimenting, like they bring ceramic in big sacks, like there were potatoes, like a £50 sack of ceramic. And they were mixing the colors themselves, and they would make their eight new oh, wow, mix it by hand and and roll it and stuff and, um. Yeah. And it was big. It's a it's a long story. I mean, he's a I we should have just had him on the show and won't be happy to talk to him, but I'm just trying to get to the point where you roll into the story. So when were you and you. So I started at the ripe old age of 17, already an old man at that point. At that point? Yep yep yep. So were you a lab rat? Yeah. So I was a yeah. I mean, I was in the lab, you know, 17 and and started doing everything. And my, my dad was very insistent. He said, like, you have to know every single job in this lab. Like it was mine from the bottom up, bottom up model work, which I still suck at. That's the that was my the one thing I still am garbage at. Um, you know, coping on the ceramics. I did a lot of platinum foil veneers back then. Wow. And, um, so you did do that way back when? Oh, yeah. And then, you know, FMS and then and ceramic and all that. So yeah, it's been a long time. It's been about 27 years. So you work with six years. So you were there when you were young and then he taught you everything and then what. Yeah. I mean, he taught me everything. And, you know, my dad's teaching style was was very different. And and I think you'll probably what was mine. Recognize this again like this. Like universality of of our experiences. My dad's teaching style was I'm going to show you how to, let's say, wax of coping. Okay. Watch carefully. And he would wax at full speed two minutes and then let go. Two minutes. No. No questions, no explaining. No. This is why we do it this way. This is why I do that. Nope. Do it. And then he'd say, you do it now. And I would only get to see it once a once every other week. No pressure. Yeah. So and so, you know, ceramic work the same thing. He's like oh ceramics. Easy. Here's a PFM. You know dentin deep dentin incisal. And he would build up in like, you know, four minutes. Like super fast. No one no explanation. And they'd be like, oh no, no phones to record it and rewatch it. Right. It's like, yeah. And there was you. We didn't record or anything. It was just like, you better be watching. And then of course, you know how texts are like. I would wander around the lab and in between my work and I'd try to look at, you know, what are the ceramics doing? You kind of, like, look over their head. You know how they are. They would, like, turn their back to you, kind of like to cover their hand because they all had their things, right. Like, you know, you're doing coatings that everyone had their thing. Like, I had one guy, you would pluck a hair and when he would cut the bridge for a PFM, he would take one of his own hairs and he would saw the wax with a with the hair because it gave the finest cut. What the. Interesting. I haven't heard that before. My first question is, is what part of the body the hair come from? Second thing it would depend how large the bridges, how coarse of a hair you needed. Wow. Oh, man. Just talking. I just remembered so many things at 17. Did your dad own a lab? Yeah. So by the time I was 17, he. He own the lab. We were out of the house. And how many employees? Or was it just himself? I don't know, seven. Six. Okay. So decent size. Seven. Seven. You know, back then, just just old FMS and and of course, you get raised in the sense of like working till ten is just like normal, right? Like, oh like we have a serious problem and it's why. And we'll talk about this later. Um, you know, being the president of the association, I see the numbers of, of DTS, like CDs, the registrants. And it's just dropping every year. And we're not we don't have enough tax and we're not making enough tax. And I think part of the reason is, is the work life balance. I mean, it was not it's not it was non-existent. I mean, it was like you just sat there all day and all night, you know, like, yeah, yeah. And like trying to attract young people and, you know, you want to train them and you're trying to address sort of the toxic elements of what work means, and you're trying to address that in yourself, right? To be like, no, you know, you got to have a life. You leave at five and, you know. But we have portrayed as a field a pretty intense, you know, work with a lot of stress and a lot of hours. And I think that that just hasn't been in the an attractor, obviously, for younger people. So I mean, that's something we can talk about later. But but I mean, you know how it is. I, you know, I spent so many nights in the lab and midnights and and that was just normal for sure. I mean, that's just you're baking that PFM bridge in the cracks. Yeah. Yeah, it cracks in the glaze and it's a full arch. Yeah, yeah. And it's 8 p.m. right about that last night. Oh my God, that comes to me in my fricking dreams, man. Oh man. Oh that's horrible. I'd love to say it's a Canadian problem, but it's not I don't know. But, you know, the best conversations happen late at night. And by best, I mean the worst. Of course, I don't know. I don't know if you've ever experienced conspiracy theories with dental technicians, but they are full of them. Yes, they are my entire I. I'm not getting into them because they get me in trouble. But man, I just remember just like just like 10 p.m., it's me and you know. One guys, you know, from the Balkans and one guy's from South America, and they're just going at it, you know. I'm just trying to get through my job and their Luciferian world order. Just protocols of the world. Bankers just like every night. I just I'm just trying to plow through. But, man, I mean, if you want education and, uh, God knows what, um, don't get it from a dental lab, that's for sure. So I so I was in the lab forever, and, um, I went to university working for your dad. My dad went to university. Yeah. Um, I did my university at night and night school. Because this is a weird thing. Where. So you're in Canada, so you had to get a degree, correct? Um, I mean, you. Okay, so that means no. So our degree. So you need a degree and ready to own a lab. And up until three years ago, there was a ratio where a lab had to have one RTT for every three non rats. And so they got rid of the ratio because it just wasn't possible. There just aren't enough people. So now you need to have one RTT in the lab. Okay. That's fair. And it doesn't matter how many people matter. That's how we are with CBS and some states in the US. So yeah. So so anyways, I was I wasn't sold on the field, but I worked full time and I did my university at night and I got a degree in philosophy and I was going to go down that path, what I was going to go to. Wow. Like my, my dream as every undergraduate in philosophy was to be a philosophy professor. And I looked into it. I looked at my friends that were getting their masters and that world looked very depressing and horrible. And by that time I'd been, I mean, 17 to, I dunno, 25 or whatever. I, you know, I had had so much experience in the lab already, right. So I had decided, you know what? I already know how to do a thing. And it's a real thing that actually has a job at the end of it. So, uh, so, I mean, incredibly grateful because I would be in a, you know, one bedroom apartment probably right now as an adjunct professor with with one, two classes a semester, you know, barely making ends meet. And that's if I was lucky enough to if that was a win condition. So what did you do, come in and say to your dad, I want to go. I'm in. Um, my dad played the slow game. He never told me that I needed to do this. He never actually even told me to work in the lab. He just played the slow game. Just like, let me do it his way. And he just waited for me to, you know, jump in. So. So yeah. Then I, I committed to worked, um, you know, work through my, you know, 20s and 30s. I had my, my 20s twice and my 30s and just playing in bands and, you know. Yeah. Being a bit of a disaster, but always there in the morning, uh, you know, 830 bleary eyed and the from the clock playing in the club and I realize, oh, yeah. And, uh. Yeah. And so what do you play? Uh, I play the accordion. What? Yeah. Did not expect that. Did not expect that. Yeah. We had the we had the band that was, uh, like 15 people. And it was sort of me and this, uh, Persian guy played the saxophone. We we wrote the songs, and it was sort of like, I don't know, it makes me feel like Balkan and Persian folk elements, but it was also a punk band because the singer was a Bosnian, he sang in Bosnian and he was a punk. So do you still do that? I work with a Bosnian. Like, I love those guys. They're so amazing. Yeah, I mean, it was it was so fun. So it was like a party band that was folk punk, let's say folk punk, something like that. So yeah, we I had a lot of fun. It was, it was. Are there videos online? That is my question. I'll see if I can find one. I'll see if I can find. I would love to see this. We used to do all sorts of things. One of my favorite. One of my favorite events. I should probably talk about dental technology at some point here. Uh, yeah, I just tell one story. We used to take out I got it. So one of the girls in the band had this purse they didn't want anymore, and it was like, uh. It was like fake fur with this, like, thick kind of Muppet fur. Kind of like a thick, okay, really ugly purse. So we used to get this wine from this Bosnian guy who would make wine and you could buy a bladder. It was a plastic bladder that the wine kit came in and it'd be, uh, four liters a gallon of wine, and it would be like 15 bucks. And in a bladder. I took this bladder of wine, put it inside this hairy purse, and then cut holes, and then made two series of nipples with, like, two nipples. I don't know, I'm telling you, I don't know why I'm telling the story. And then so I do. I said, well, we're playing. We would send out one of the girls in the band, would stand on the, would sit on the shoulders of the other one, and they'd have a long stick with a string, like a fishing rod, and then this hairy sack of wine with nipples on it. Uh. I have a visual thing in my brain right now. That's the first time I did it. I'm like, no one's gonna go suck on a random nipple, you know, out of that hairy sac. And as soon as it went out there, they were like starving kittens. They were cheek to cheek. Just that one of them was a too enthusiastic and pulled the nipple right out of the sack and emptied the whole gallon on themselves. Oh. Anyway, so I was doing that and coming to the lab at 830 and pulling up for Canadians. Always good in my world, dad. I'm all right. My dad would look at me and said, you look like hell. What's going on? One day you're gonna take over for me. So how did you transition from that point to that? I've seen you all over. I have a car. So when did you grow up? Yeah. When did you grow up? Uh, yeah, I didn't, but, um, it's not a negative. Okay, okay. So serious. Okay. So serious. Serious conversations now. Um, so. Okay, so the big change, like, for everyone, was like the digital transition, right? Yeah. So the lab was doing not great at the time. My dad had some health issues. He had a stroke and a heart attack. And, you know, I mean, labs are stressful as hell, right? And and. Sure. And I mean, I, you know, I remember we'd like bill cases that were in the delivery car to make payroll. Oh my God. You know, like. Yeah. And, you know, they're the lines of credit to to make payroll and, you know, like. And so the writing was on the wall. That was basically we need to radically change or just close was basically it. And my dad to his credit. My dad was always very successful. The lab was ran very great. But you know, when Gladwell, you know, and the whole digital thing started, we were late to the game. Mhm. Like we got into it maybe 15 years ago, but in this in small way, you know. So we had lost a lot of business. And so uh, so anyways my dad to his credit at that time was like, let's just get out this big loan and, uh, buy all this stuff. We got 100 grand loan and gave it to to, uh, origin. And we got through shape and we got our milling machine. And I think at the time we were doing like, 2 or 3 zirconia crowns a week. So, like, the ROI made no sense. Wow. Yeah. Like, it wasn't a financially smart decision. It was like, we just need to do something. And at that time, my dad kind of. Uh, was kind of like, done with, you know. So he, he was like, here you go. Will you take this loan and, uh, good luck. There you go. Basically. Well, sink or swim, it was just like, I have to go hardcore on this. Here's the transfer of the, uh. Yeah, that's pretty awesome. And so, I mean, that's how it started getting into three shape, getting the software. And as I grew in that department, I just you just keep taking chances, right? You buy your 3D printer, you buy the new software, you buy this, you buy that. And there wasn't money for it per se. You just borrow it and then you just, you know, kind of fake it, you know, till you made it through a thing. So were you always into it, like, did you like, dig it and you thought this was. I mean, it's cool. I mean, I mean, our field is objectively cool. Like, it's the stuff we play with is is amazing. I mean, how fun these milling machines, how fun is, you know, even the software. Sometimes I'll catch myself just enjoying, you know, moving the blobs around. It's like, yeah, it's intrinsically interesting. Right? So, you know, we we hit it hard. And I went to Arjun and got my first three shape lesson, a typical dental technician. I showed up to the first training and I was like, hey, by the way, I have this six unit interior case. We have to mill it today, so if we could just do that one first, then we can start the training. Uh, you took a case to training, of course, and then they did it. Yeah, basically. That's awesome. That's amazing. That's sort of what changed the entire trajectory of my life was digital. And more importantly than that, was like the Facebook study group was. I mean, it was absolutely. I, I even say it was life changing. The amount of connections that I made. And if you look up like my name on that group, I'm not so active anymore. But, you know, I have like 10,000, you know, comments, post things like, yeah, so what was it? Just like answer, help and answer, ask for like post videos. You know, that was like your parlay into all of this. You just led that that was with men in seven, right? Yeah. Yeah. I wasn't a moderator or anything, but through, you know, just being a really active user, I became, you know, really good friends with, with those guys. And, you know, I consider them lifelong friends. And um, and we talk, you know, daily basically good people. Yeah. I mean, great people. And so when you're among people that are doing inspirational stuff like seven, I've told them a hundred times. His lecture in 2018, it was before the, uh, additional scans tool was in three shape. So before that tool was in three shape, he would do. If he had to combine two scans, he would save one of them as the syntax of a tooth, like an anatomy for reuse. And then he would rename it, put it in that directory, and then copy and append design to preparation scan. Mm. And he was doing that to combine scans if he had to, um, for kind of weird workflows. And anyways, I saw that lecture that had that in it and you know, but you know, 2018, I was, you know, I was I was good I was proficient in through shape, like I was running the lab with it, and I was doing all the larger designing and most of the designing and, but that lecture like, blew my mind. That was like it opened up like, oh, I don't know anything. Oh yeah. And uh, and since, since that moment, I've tried to surround myself with people that make me feel like I don't know anything. And there's lots of people in my life that have, like, been very generous with me and like, yeah, I mean, men's salon, um, John Wilson and watching them do stuff. And to this day they do things and I'm like, I am like, I am garbage at my job. I'm a student, right? You think you know something? And then you see, you know, John's doing some sub pterygoid implant case that's layered five times with different materials. Like you're like, dude, come on, why are you even trying to do that? Yeah. So. So, um. Yeah, I've just been very lucky and, and, and so the, the three shapes of the group and that whole crew and, and, um, it's really been people and, and that's what was changed. And I'm a firm believer. And, you know, I don't want to say this in a flaky, new agey way, but I'm a firm believer that if you are passionate about something and you love it and you want to do it, let's let's take on X. I didn't do on X, like historically in my job. I didn't do dentures either. But if you just. Obsess about it. You talk to everyone who does it. You do practice cases. You watch every video that exists. You, anyone that will give you the time of day, you talk to them. You. You figure it out and you have that passion. I don't want to be new agey, but it's. It's not like you set your intention in the world, but somehow that work comes to you. Yeah. Somehow it just somehow, if you start doing it and you don't even know how. Yeah, but and maybe it's, you know, maybe a dentist or a specialist wants to kick the can with you on it, and they hear it in your voice. Right. That you're like, my whole life I never thought about money. Ever. Like, I don't really think. I don't really look at my books that much, which is. I'm not bragging. That's a horrible. Yeah. I was going to say, dude, you know, business lab owner are the garbage businessmen in general. But, yeah, so are dentists. But I always approached it as like, I'm excited about this. And when dentists hear you on the phone and you're like, let's do this big case, I'm not thinking about the money at all. I'm thinking of like, what a fun thing we get to do. You know, like, let's do that. Let's find this out. Let's, like, change this person's entire face. Yeah. I think that attitude has, like, served me quite well. And it really comes down to being invigorated, being passionate, and that comes down to community. Because it's really easy to get discouraged if you're alone, right? Oh, 100%. How much have we done in the lab that we just winged? The first time you did, like, a UCLA cast abutment and you just winged it right on the daily on the day? True. Yep. Right. And if you if you have a sense that you're alone winging things. I mean, it's pretty discouraging. And you feel like you're faking it, you know? But yeah, if you have a community that's constantly doing things and they're doing things that's like inspiring you, and then you carry that energy, you don't even have to talk about how inspired you are to the dentist, but you have it comes across like it comes across in your voice. Like without words. Right. Yeah. Yep. No. Totally, totally agree with that. I love that you say, you know, if you become obsessed with something, the work comes. Yeah. Is there an opposite? Is there an opposite to that? Can I become obsessed if there's work I don't want? Do you have too much work on this? Yeah. I'm the wrong guy to ask. I miss them. Yes. I'm like, oh, this is a totally, like, effed up. Oh, if this was a case from a couple weeks ago. Dentist blended together a verification jig with soft reel material. It was like a slinky. Yeah, but, you know, my my problem is, like. Oh, man, what a fun puzzle. I can't wait to try to fix it. I can fix her, as I say, you know. And so I need to learn from you or someone. How do you say no? Like, as long as a dentist is is like a nice person and they're nice. I'll. I'll do it. I'll figure it out. Yeah, we'll figure it out. If they're still on the phone. No, I don't tolerate it. But I'll get stepped on all over by nice people. So. Yeah. So when that happens, do you fix it. Mhm. Or or die trying. Yeah. Or die trying I love that. Yep. Yeah I would agree. So that's what it's all about. And you know when we talk about like I'm putting together this this cruise and it's it's a big gamble right. Because I had to get sponsors. You have to pay a big deposit. And then it's like, am I going to get sponsors? And I had very generous sponsors with Apple and and no Bell and a whole bunch of people. You started this? Yeah. It was kind of my, um, up for the cruise because the problem is, is that I have an amazing community online and don't ignitions online. It's kind of the opposite of the way the world works. Normally people are awful online and good in person, but don't think they just tend to be, uh, good online and terrible in person. Um. For sure. Interesting. Yeah. So the, uh, the community, like, I never grew up knowing people. My dad was super, like, apolitical. Like he would never go to the association meetings. He wouldn't be a part of any of it. He said, oh, I see, yeah. If I want to sit in a room with a bunch of technicians complaining, I'll just go to the lab. Why do I need to go on my Saturday for that? Yeah. Everyone, old senators, blah blah blah blah blah. Like. So how did you get involved then? Like give it up. So they reached out, and, uh, they needed board members, and I didn't want to do it like that because I just I'm not, like, very politically minded in the sense of, like, let's look into the bylaws. Let's look into, like the, you know, same with Elvis to me. But we love giving back for sure. Um, yeah. But at the same time, I know that the community is totally broken. Like, there's still this old school paranoia. You're gonna poach my accounts, you're gonna poach my employees, you're going to steal my technique, you know? So, yeah. So I joined the board just to see kind of what was happening. And then they needed the president, and, um, the executive director kept pushing me and I was like, man. They said, hey, will you all lined up? And everyone stepped back and you were still standing there. I know how that works. You were next in line. Yeah, it was basically that it wasn't right. Yeah. It wasn't like some, you know, profound, uh, victory that I, you know, uh, won this big, uh, competition or something. It was just like they just needed someone. So you didn't have to fight a moose for it or something? No. So, anyway, so so my my entire goal. Because I know I'm not a paperwork, bureaucracy political person. And that would be. That's part of being an association. Right. And I acknowledge that that's like not a good thing to say or a good skill set for someone. And neither am I in that position. Right. But what I think I am reasonable at is talking to people, making connections, getting to know people and and leveraging that to build community. And I realized that if we want to do anything, there has to be community like forget, you know, we had all these plans of. You know, going into the school or trying to get people into enroll or having ads for the profession because it's dying. Um, but you can't do a single thing if you yourselves aren't cohesive. Right. So, so the boat cruise was that kind of concept of like, let's just see. And, and so I, I was, you know, blown away by the sponsorship we got, we managed to fund about half of it and the other half is ticket sales. And now we're just trying to make sure we fill the boat. And again I've been amazed. Some lab owners, you know, they told me like, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna sell my tax. They're they're just gonna get poached by their labs. It's like, wow. Okay. Um, so they really feel that way still. Well, there's less and less tax. It's a pretty big deal. You know, you lose your big tech. You know, the way I see it, I mean that. Yeah. They're not giving them a reason to stay. You know what I mean? Right. If it's that tenuous, then they're looking, right. I mean, yeah, and you have you have a problem on your end. So what's the idea behind why a boat? What? I mean, I, I like boats, okay. I like boats. Where is this boat going? I mean, um, it's not like a multi-day thing, is it? Oh, God. No, I don't think anyone. Would. You say cruise in my mind went to, like, oh, you're going to the Bahamas or something? It's a four hour cruise around Vancouver. Oh my God. Um, so, yeah, we're gonna we're gonna get everyone together. I'm hoping. How long was the Gilligan's Island cruise? It's three hours. We're very okay. It was very important that it was in three hours. That would be. I mean, can you imagine a survivor episode? And they're all down technicians? Yes, we can actually. That's hell. Worse than Lord of the flies. Oh, yeah. Yeah. No way. Yeah. And then there's going to be sea. I'm going to do an hour, uh, of sea, which is, like, very indulgent. And my wife made fun of me for. But no one volunteered. So it's, like, very indulgent to be like, I'm gonna have a boat cruise and I'm going to get the money, and then I'm also going to be the guy speaking on it. So you got your wife was probably like, are you crazy? It's called the Will cruise. Yeah, basically. I mean, so, I mean, I feel I still feel guilty. If there was time to change, I would get someone else because it's a little bit. I just there was no one that was like chomping at the bit to do it, so. So I'm gonna do a cruise. Uh, we'll do, uh, I don't know. I think I'm gonna do, like, an actual CAD course, but I wanted to talk about, like, general, like general CAD principles, which I think people don't, you know, they don't explicitly understand, like open meshes and manifolds and splines and spatial coordinates. That's a great point. You know, we all talk about in the digital world teaching fundamentals. Yeah. What about the fundamentals of digital. Absolutely, absolutely. So I mean the analogy I plan to use I haven't done my lecture. It's going to be in I guess two. Weeks. I need the week. Week before. So you're going to wait until the very last minute? Of course. Yeah. Yeah. That's how we roll. That's how you do it. But the analogy is going to be. So I want to talk about like digital freedom or finding digital freedom. And the analogy is going to be cooking. So there's a there's a really nice book called uh Food Ratios. I said Ruhlman, I forgot who wrote it. I forgot. Uh, anyways, the idea is. Yeah. Michael Ruhlman. Um, the idea of the book is like, hey, listen, you can look up a scone recipe, right? And the scone recipe is going to come. It's going to be like 19 pages of the guy talking about his grandmother's scones and the growing up with the scone in the house. And then you can scroll through all that garbage and get down to the wife. And I make fun of those all the time. Yeah. But ultimately, the scone is a ratio of fat, flour and water. Yeah. And it's a fixed ratio. So if instead of going and reading all this, this BS and getting this one recipe for this one kind of scone, if you memorize the ratio between the fat and the flour and the water, and that's just the fixed ratio, you can make any scone flavor in the world, right? Because you have the master recipe. And so I want to relate this to digital dentistry that if we think of we are drawing splines to create open meshes, and we're combining open meshes to make manifolds and we're maintaining and say so for this and you know, we're just making objects and adding and subtracting them from each other. And if you understand like what is the recipe of a digital denture? What is the recipe of a of an all in X? Well, you know, you had one part implant component and one part gingiva. And then the bottom, uh, wax up. If you understand, you're doing like an ABC. Got it. Exactly. It doesn't matter if you're in miss paint or if you're in mesh mixer or whatever you're using. You know I have to make these ingredients. These ones get added together. This one gets subtracted. Right. And if you understand that fundamentally like the I'm drawing a spline to make an open mesh, and this open mesh maybe has an offset. And that offset could be my cement spacer or whatever. Right. Yeah. So if you understand the fundamentals then it opens up. Because the way we teach dental software is is crazy. I mean, we teach it like, okay, memorize this series of clicks. And by the time you get to click 50, uh, you'll have something, right? But you're like, okay, click on this button and click, click on that button. Then click on this button and it's like, well, what if one of the buttons isn't there? Or what if there's one variable that's different? Like you're screwed. Yeah. And half the time I don't even know what the buttons did. You don't really know why you're doing what you're doing. You're just you just memorize some workflow that's on the piece of paper. And that's. I mean, that's like teaching someone that whacks a crown. It's like teaching them. Okay, your shoulder cuff rotated 30 degrees. Now your elbow, you know, unfurl it about, you know, 45 degrees, and then you want two millimetres of your tool inside the Bunsen burner flame and then retract. You know you wouldn't touch it that way. You would say the goal is put the wax on top of the on top of the die. Here's the Bunsen burner. You know how to use your arm. You know what I mean? Yeah. Really? Yeah. And so applying that to digital dentistry. I love this idea. Making an open mesh right now you're combining that open mesh with this one. So when you open like let's say XO CAD. And a lot of us like three shape users historically, you know you look at Exo, oh it's so many buttons. Oh there's so many options I'm overwhelmed. Well when you open your kitchen cabinet and you're in your pantry, you have all your spices there, right? You have, you know, maybe 100 items on your pantry. You don't open your pattern and go, oh, I am overwhelmed. I don't know what to look for. I don't know what I'm doing because, you know, I need flour. Yeah. For everything. You find the flour, right? You need you find the paprika, you put it there. You don't worry about all the things there because most people don't really explicitly know what they're doing. I'm the first to admit that's me. Yeah, I would agree. I do a lot of designs, you know, a lot of denture designs, and I'm flipping normals and I don't know what that really is. Yeah. And so that's a that's a perfect example right. Like let's talk about triangle orientation. What does that mean. How how does a 2D surface. How does it have an inside and outside of the mesh. And like what is a mesh. Like what what is a point cloud. I made a great example is I mean I can do a denture in three shape. You know the the steps are there. It's pretty simple. Yeah. But the one time the lab says, oh, you can fix that, just throw it into mix. Mixer, mix. Mish mash mixer. I'm like, I have no idea what I'm doing. Do I it's what, what what do I, what am I even fixing and how am I even going about it. And it's it's very strange, but I think what you're saying is, is that recipe, those ingredients, they're all the same no matter where you're at. Yeah. And if I was to train someone from scratch right now and. Okay. Believe me, I am a horrible teacher. Like, if you talk to my lab, if you talk to my designers, they would be like. Will is a horrible teacher. I don't think so. I would, I would disagree because I have a teaching style. Aren't you looking for people to sign up for your course? I mean, yeah. I mean, I, I would have to disagree. I think I'm all right at doing lectures, but teaching one on one somehow. I don't know. I mean, of course, I grew up with my dad who's teaching method was watch me do it once at full speed optimization. Yeah. Yeah. Um huh. And so, so anyways. But if I was to do this, you know, transform from zero, I got, like, a protege, young kid who didn't know anything. I think the first two days of digital dental training would be with the computer off and the piece of paper. Don't even look at the program. I don't even want you to even hold a mouse. We're going to look at each other face to face, and we're going to talk about things on the piece of paper. You're going to know why an open mesh is different than the manifold. You're going to think about spatial coordinates. And we're going to go through the recipe book of like the fundamental parts of digital. Forget the program. If you if you know that then when you when you're in. I've never used dental wings. But let's say I was going to use dental wings, right? I know what what I need to do beyond make a tooth. I know that I need to define a boundary to make a mesh for my cement spacer. Right. And I know that that cement spacer has an offset that's going to get subtracted from a tooth library. That's a manifold object. And so if you if you explicitly understand like the building blocks, then you can be like software agnostic. One of the great things about axle CAD, which is also the the hard part and the what makes Exo quite hard to deal with, is that everything's very explicit in actual like it shows you what you're doing. Like, you know, you merge stuff in, the ingredients are still there, right? Like everything's still there. It doesn't delete anything. It's not next, next, next. It's like you're making components, arranging them. The arrangements were there and also the components are still there. And it's very confusing and it's very confusing if you learn the program by clicking on buttons, but you don't learn it by thinking about what are the fundamentals, what are you actually explicitly doing? So anyways, I'll just throw that in to ChatGPT and hopefully it spits out the presentation for me. That's pretty awesome actually. I can get you a transcript over what we did here. And so you're the president. Talk to us about being the president of the association. Um, you know, it's it's it's not glamorous. I read I read an editorial four times a year where I just get to write anything I want. And, um. Do you like that? That's pretty fun. How strong is the association? I mean, compared to, like, labs that are joined versus not joined, is it pretty strong or is there still struggling to get people involved? We only have 300 seats in BC. Okay. It's not a large block. Most of them are in the association. 200 are in the association. It's a struggle to get people out to things I know. And so that's the hard part. And this is, this is part of the reason for the boat cruise. I'm hoping I can't get off. Yeah. That you can start seeing, like, this could be fun, you know. Right. I'm hoping to share. Like, I'm super open. Like I have labs call me that. Ah, I have multiple people call me there. Let's say a quote, unquote, my direct competitor. But, you know, they're smashing their head against their computer. And if I can say something to you that can save you three hours, that doesn't affect me. Like you don't have a client because you know this trick in digital. Exactly. You have your client because they like talking to you. When there's the shit hits the fan. You're the guy that they want to hear on the phone. And that's why you have 100%. And that's why I have a client. And so like if, if we make our lives easier and I there's so much I mean, I don't know so much, you know, and I need lots of help from other people. I like dentures, I keep lecturing for dentures for the digital denture symposiums every single time. I'm like, really? I have done zero analog dentures. I do like a denture a month and it's only for an on x. Like I don't know any. And you're speaking in front of these people. So I go in front of them and I literally the first thing I say is, you know, my name is Willem, a ceramics. I don't know anything about dentures. I like to move things. So collect your refund in the back. Yeah. Okay. That's a room full of denture. I like, I like, I'm there to have conversations over drinks and learn. Sure. You know, I don't like zero degree, 33 degree denture teeth, carded teeth. I don't know what the numbers mean on cards. Like if you gave it to me, I don't know. You stretch the teeth and morph them. I mean, what do you mean, carded teeth? I don't know. Yeah. Anyway, so I've, you know, I've constantly have so much to learn, um, especially in, in that direction, the natural. So I'm pushing myself to do lots of dentures. There's like, no money in dentures. I mean, it's just it's just for funsies for me. Um, good. Really? Is that just for you or just for Canada in general? Well, just Canada, like. like a denture. Let's just in terms of ratios, let's say a denture is worth three monolithic posterior zirconia crowns. So I mean you could just make three braindead. Never going to be a problem. Click click click five minutes crowns and just stop waiting on. Or you can do a full mouth reconstruction that's magically held in place by suction. What if you're lucky? Yeah. What's what if you do that? That's all lab true. No offensive. And so my takeaway is like, denture techs are like a godsend. And they are not respected enough. And dentures are not. The dentures are not being paid enough. Like, for what these guys do every day like mad respect. You guys are a rare dying breed and you should be respected more and paid way more because you're doing promo reconstructions. And same for clinicians that are good at it. I mean right. You need both for it to work. Right. I want you all to make money in a second before I do a denture. Oh, I'd rather do one too. It fixes in screws. Go in. You're done. Like I tell my my friend, if I have to hang a picture on the wall, would I rather put a nail in the wall and hang it? Or. They're rather like, rub the picture and hope it sticks somehow with friction. Great point. Put your tongue to the roof and swallow like. And it's not fair. It's not fair that you charge ten times more for it on X because okay, so so what I'm talking in terms I add the open meshes called implant components. It now is worth ten times more. I subtracted one mesh from a denture without flanges and now it's worth ten times more. Yeah I mean I'm simplifying it, but like I'm also not like it doesn't quite make sense. No, but I think it's everything. In the world. I mean, you get this sense of it being a higher grade when it's usually the same material, somewhat, so that you can charge more for it, I guess. I don't know. Yeah. I've spent less time helping people do all on X cases than I do helping with just regular removable cases. Oh yes, you have patient 3 or 4 times all on x one and done. Yeah. Easy screwing. Done. No no no Torah is sensitive or something. Something the. Yeah. Anyway, so I don't know how we started talking about that. Who knows where we ended up? Anywhere. I know exactly, it was awesome. Thank you. I want you to take this thing you're doing on the boat. Yeah, and bring it to the States, man. I think you get off the boat and bring it down here. Take it to Chicago. We need to find you a sponsor, because I think this is a great thing. Basics of digital. Just understanding the basis. Yeah, well. We'll see. We'll see. Hopefully it's not just going to be a boat full of confused people. Like, why is he talking about cooking? Patrick. It's gone. I guess you're talking about. Well, you might have to change the scones when you come down here. We don't know what that is. Well, I guess they're kind of Canadian, aren't they? The British Canadian? Yes, a little bit. What would you donuts here in America, man. Donuts? Yeah. Well. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks, guys. Well, we were just all over the map, but, uh, you know, that was great. It's pretty fun. Just, uh, just to sit and chat. I feel like we could share stories for, like, a hundred more hours, but. Oh, are you sure of that? Yeah. And, uh, put the bug in your dad's ear. We want him. Yeah, yeah. Honestly, it would be a really interesting podcast because he's seen the gamut of everything, I think. I think it would be really fascinating. Well, awesome. Will have yourself a good weekend. All right. Take care guys. Thank you. Pleasure. Okay. Take care. Bye. Bye bye. A huge thanks to Wil for coming on our podcast and telling us some crazy stories of your dad, which I love. My dad, everybody knows. And when you spent time on stage, which was great, but when you did talk about dental, we totally see the value of what you are trying to do bringing the community together. Because let's say it's true. We are all in this together and there's obviously enough work for everybody. So we should only be supporting and teaching each other. And we hope someone hears this idea of the fundamentals of digital and cooking and get you to Chicago. Come on, guys, let's teach each other. Thank you all. All right everybody. That's all we got for you. And of course we'll talk to you next week. You know we will see you. Bye. You want everybody to know that I love her new CD. Oh, well, by all means, I will. The views and opinions expressed on the voices from the Bench podcast are those of the guest, and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the host or voices from the bench, LLC.