In the lab community. Joe Mante, Western regional sales manager for Everclear here. We all know zirconia is a hot topic. There's a lot of information out there, but also plenty of myths that could lead to confusion and misconceptions. That's why I teamed up with Jeff Smith. I was director of Technical and Digital Services to tackle the questions we hear all the time, from strength and translucency to processing techniques. We've got the answers for you, so please join us for an honest conversation based on real world experiences with zirconia. Don't miss out! Watch now and get the clarity you deserve. Simply log on to Everclear, comm or connect using the QR code available on the voices from the bench webpage to listen to this webinar. Welcome to voices from the bench, a Dental laboratory podcast. Send us an email at info from the bench. Com and follow us on Facebook and Instagram. Greetings and welcome to episode 386 The Voices from the bench. My name is Elvis. My name is Barbara. And I cannot believe when you just said that. 386 Elvis. Is it been seven years? It's been well over seven years. Yeah, that's a lot of episodes. It is, isn't it? You're really proud of us. I am, what's funny is. Can you guess how many guests we've had on God? I just saw this number. I don't know how accurate it is, but it's going to be very close, because I think it includes the guests I've already created for upcoming episodes. But guess at that number, I don't know, 390? 600. What? We have a lot of episodes where we talk to four people. Oh, yeah? You know what you read and a lot of people gotta remember. We've had a lot of people on multiple times. Those are not included. So that is awesome. We've talked to a lot of people. And good for the industry to be able to go on and learn everything that they can about all the people and the industries and everything. Technology, vendors, you name it. I mean, it's funny, you know, you say it's a small industry. Well, we've talked to 600 of them and there's still a lot of them left. I know you keep telling me, oh, we have an interview Friday and we have this and we have that. And I'm like, damn. Yeah, yeah. Fair warning. We got a couple doubled up coming soon. Oh, sorry. Yeah, yeah, that's all right. So, Barb, you texted me just this last week and told me you're all signed up for the race, and you're not. You actually purchased a plane ticket. I got my plane. I got my race. I'm ready to go. This might be the earliest you've ever bought a plane ticket for earliest that I beat you, actually, because you were like, yeah, I haven't done mine yet. Exactly. So tell the listeners exactly what you signed up for. So I'm doing the 10-K, which I a lugs have to like. Send my bike anywhere and wrap it all up and pick it up and send it back. So I'm just going to do the run. Yeah. 10-K because that's what you were signed up for. So I know you're going to beat me and that's fine. But I was like, I'm six miles. I'm in. Yeah, I got it. So this is for the race for the future 11. This is the 11th time. 11. It's happening on September 14th in Fort Worth, Texas. That's less than a month. I can't believe it, bro. Yeah, I really gotta get a ticket. So dental technicians and even a couple vendors. Some good partners in the industry. We all meet up on a hopefully. I'm hoping for a chilly morning. It's not going to be chilly in Texas. I bet we can hope. Cold front. Yeah. Good luck with that. And we're gonna run, swim and bike to raise money for the Foundation for Dental Laboratory Technology. So let's ask, how can you, as the listener, participate? Well, you have two choices. You can get off your butts and you can come join us at the race, or you can donate money. Those are your only options. So if you're not going to come join us, head over to this episode Shownotes to see how you can donate to either Barb. Barb Warner, who's running the 10-K, or my team, the Crown Jewels. So what is the Crown Jewels actually mean? Because when I think of jewels, I might think of other stuff. So like what? You come up with that name? Well, I don't know how we came up with it. We came up with a lot of names and that's the one we picked. Uh, no story behind it. Yeah, but okay. Mark and Allie Williamson, you know, are good friends. Yeah, they're both doing the five K and Brandon Smith is going to swim. He wants to swim I don't know God help him. He wants to swim. And I'll be doing the ten case. It was not really a triathlon. We're all just going to go do it. But it's all to raise money. So go to this episode, show notes, look at the links, figure it out, send the money, and just remember, all the money goes back into our industry to help promote and educate anyone willing to take the time to apply for those grants? Yes. Do it. So all good things must come to an end. I love that trip. Either it's a good song or maybe even your favorite show. But now it's the conversations that we got at the Exo card booth at IDs 2025. 11 hours of content. We got all in Germany memes. Yep. So long before this podcast even started. I mean, I knew about IDs, but I just heard about other people going. I really figured I would never have a chance to go. I mean, who's gonna pay for my butt to go all the way to Germany? But then when we started recording at lab de Chicago, Barb, we started talking about getting the spot show to the IDs. I mean, it's like the Mecca of all dental shows. And it was thanks to the amazing and wonderful people at Scad for making this happen. So we're going to end all 11 hours, and I happen to look 54 gigs of content on my computer. Yeah, it's a lot of content with some really good conversations. First up is a married couple that met in a lab. Agata back and Aiman Ansari. Agata is from Poland. Iman is from Iran. They both end up in London working at a dental lab. After a few rejections and you can imagine who rejected who, they started dating and eventually they got married. After a few labs, they decided to do it themselves and put everything they have into opening black Pearl Dental Lab. And they are absolutely killing it at lab work and apparently marriage. Then we wrap up the whole show with a living legend in America, Larry Bodoni. You see, just recently, Larry retired as a president of Exxon North America. But it's the amazing story of how Larry got the job. That is the real gem of this conversation. And it has a nice tie to Ides. Larry also talks about the early days of exochus, and how he went from just a few users in the U.S. to the powerhouse that he had is today, and what life after exochus is introducing him to the next exciting technology in dental. So join us as we chat with Agata Beck, Eamon Azari, and Larry Bodoni. Voices from the bench. The interview. Is Buck. Buck. Buck. Bark back. Yes! I'm Buck. Oh my God! Buck! I'm back. There's not a where's the first name also. Oh no no no no no no. I thought you all had a heaven in ski. No, no. Apparently I have the funny one. Three letters. Nobody can make a mistake. The one that's easy. What's your first name? Agatha. Okay. Your first name is harder. I got what is it? I got that you got this. I think you should be on this. Oh, we have another headset. He doesn't want to be on his head. He's talking like he wants. I know you do. There you go. Put all your shit down. There you go. All right. So. So this is an exciting husband and wife, right? Yeah. I don't want to assume, but I thought I heard that. I said, I think so. She, uh, back I. What's your first name? Agatha buck. I got that back. I got to. I got your back. Yes. Yeah, exactly. I got them from Poland. Yes. Mary's a man. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yes. The funny thing is, whenever I go somewhere, they say, what's your name? I said I'm sorry. I said I'm sorry. I said it's not. I'm sorry, it's an sorry. I'm sorry. And that's how you got her with her. I got your back and I'm sorry. Yes. This works. Where are you from? I'm Iranian. Iranian. So how did you two meet in London? Yes. That's the magic life in London. So you both were working in the same place. You're both channel technicians in your in your home countries. So let's start with IRA. Where did you learn? No, I didn't studied dental technology in Iran. I came to London and I studied in London. Is it Iran or Iran? Um, I know American says iron, but English says Iran. So I don't know why I want to fit in. So what did you say? Iran. Yeah. Did you go to the uni? Yes. Because you still went to London? Yeah, I studied in um, no, I wasn't uni college. I studied in Lambeth College for three years. Wow. Yeah. And after I graduated, I started to work in this field. And then, um, I met this young lady, so. Okay, it's. I learned in Poland. Yes. I finished a bachelor in medical school in Poland. Oh, wow. Wow. So you were already highly educated when you went to London? Yeah. Is that four years? Three years? Three years? Three years? Yes. You both went to school. That's pretty special. What took you to London? Well. Ex-boyfriend. Okay. Do you want to hear this? Okay. I'm gonna put my fingers to my ears. I don't want to hear that. That was eggs. Okay. Here you go. Yeah. Obviously. So you followed it. You followed a guy to London? Yeah. Basically what I would say. The idea of opportunity. Because the dental field in Poland was a bit stagnated. And I felt like if I go to London, I might succeed. And I believe that what happened that takes a lot of guts is a lot. Excuse my ignorance, but is London like the New York City of Europe? Like, I really like to go to New York. Yeah. So there's a lot more dental labs. There's a lot more opportunity, more technology. Are they more keen to give you a chance to try something different? Because I start as a metal worker. I was doing chrome and inlays on lace crowns. You started as metal? Yes. Wow. Really? Yeah. But you're so young. There's still metal over there. Yeah, there is more metal than here. Yeah, obviously. That's. That's for sure. Metal as well. Did you really? Seriously? Did you guys looked at each other's metal hands? No no no no. That was passed on. Was passed that time. So I moved to ceramic and he moved to designing. Seriously? You're a ceramist? I'm a ceramist. So you just fell in love? Yeah. You finally got it. Did you always say that? I always worked it out. Oh, yeah. And you learned that in school? No. I will learn everything in UK. Wow. So it was first, um, self-training. And slowly when I could afford. Or I can ask my bosses to go for courses versus courses. Yes. So what lab did you to beat it? Well, I was in, um. I mean, the name of the lab or. Yeah. Is the ceramics studio. It was the first lab I started. It's one of the oldest labs in London. Oh, really? I love hearing that. And it's really big laugh. Yeah. And now even it's bigger. The oldest lab is still there, and it's big. Steve doesn't own it. No, no, it's not there. Right. You know, that's the family business. Yeah. But I have my own lab now. Oh, really? Yes. I mean, take us. Take us down that journey. So you were there? Yes. You started in metal? Yes. And then how did you get to you? You're a ceramist. And I mean, I mean to the CAD cam now. Yes. And then you opened your lab or. No, it was a bit longer journey. So we did happen over a weekend. No, I wish it took about five years. From from. From meetings. I want to know who hit on who first. Oh, it was all him. He was here. I didn't want the guy better, really, yet I didn't want him. I told me three times. Are you serious? Third time's the charm. And then after he married himself, he had to wait a bit. I love that. It's hilarious. It was quite a story. Did you guys work closely in the lab? Yeah, yeah, basically, it was designing and I was finishing his cases. Oh, so he was always told. Were you doing this? Yeah. Oh, yeah. She was complaining. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And you were just like. She's a challenge. Apparently he likes challenge. She was coming. Your contact points are really tight. It's not a grind it. Move your line angle here. That's. Absolutely. Oh, that's. And then you walk away and he's like, she's hot. I really like her. So I was thinking same. So three times you tried to go out and nothing. And you're just like, oh, I don't I don't want to date the at work. Or is that an issue? You just weren't ready. Probably. I thought he's a bit of a loverboy and I was not interested. Oh my God. High five. That's a great description. He's pretty hot. Everybody. I know, I know, I can't just compliment the girl. The guy is hot too. No, he's not funny. It's no fun. No complaints. Yeah. So the first date, you guys go to a dental show or something? Oh, we went to Iceland. Wait wait, wait. The first date, you guys went on a trip together? Yep. It was. It wasn't supposed to be dates. Oh. You were. It was like. Because we were like a traveling with friends. There was a group. Yes. Okay, that's a little safer. Yeah, exactly. And I tried it inside the airplane. And I said to her, like, are you still seeing anyone? She says, yeah, yeah. I said, I know I'm single. You're single. What about, like, we start together and it's like, I like to keep you as my colleague. Oh, and my friend said to me, we will see that. Now we're getting ready. Oh my God, that's great. So you fell in love in Iceland? Yes. I couldn't resist. Yeah. I think it was really great days. It was. Yes, it was beautiful. So you come back, you still have to work together. Relationships blossom. Right. We hide for a bit, so nobody could say, oh, you try to play that game. Yeah. So take out the little room. So then you stayed together. We will work together. Then we start changing labs. So we've been a few different places. Both of us together. No no no no no. Separately, if you went to work somewhere else and the relationship strengthened when you got away, or did it weaken or about the same? No they don't. He's very clingy, so that's fine. You need the space. Yeah. So how did you guys decide that you were going to open a lab? Like, that's a big risk. It was kind of step by step. Well, I think we just grown into decide to have our own lab because we've been changing from place to place, and we found that. I'm always missing something. And because he's very business orientated and I'm artistic, so it was natural. Step to two happened. Was it easy? How hard was it? I mean, you know, sometimes you get to the point that you are growing, but your box is not growing. Your neck is getting stuck to the box. I think that's the time you have to move. I mean, I know too many technicians that stay in one place. If you're happy, then it's okay. But both of us, we have this attitude that we always wanted to be the best. Yeah. You want? I mean, there is always a better one. Always. But you want to be one of those better ones. So we pushed it to grow. And then we realized that that it's not going anywhere. Because we have to work for yourself, because you can't rely on people to help you to grow. Yeah. They are in some points. They help you to grow, but you're not satisfied with it. Yeah. And you cannot blame them. No, no you can't because they do. We're all human. Everybody gets weakness power. We know how it is. So I said to her, like, I think we should start to open our business to work for ourselves because we have the talent, we know what we're doing, and we don't need to have any mentor or anyone to help us to grow. And we want to work longer. Yes, yes, 12 hours per day. Yes. I want your designs. Yes, please. It's really tough to have your own business, especially for us. Yeah, because it's just two of us. We are new. But I knew it's going to be difficult. But hey ho, it's going well. So you're both bringing in an income? Definitely. Do you both just quit and open this lab? That's balls. That is. That is a big step. So we have to risk. So what did did it start in your house? Yes. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. What'd you get? Just a design station and we have everything. What I said at first. Yes yes, yes. So what? So after you won the lottery. Yeah. It wasn't a lottery. It was ten years hard work. Saved all this money, and you put it all into the. So you quit your job, you put all your savings into this. Wow. So what did you start with? Well, obviously in porcelain. Did you get a mail right away and a no no no no no, we the only thing we're really missing is the milling. But that's what we're trying to buy. Now. You're outsourcing. Yes, but a lot of people do that. Oh, yeah. I mean we're going to buy very soon because in, in in the show you can find a lot of interesting offers. Maybe we could come back with them, print them with a machine. So you guys have that kind of goal like at this meeting, go big or go home. That's fricking go big or go home because you're right. If you're going to find it, it's at this meeting if you can find it. So how'd you get your first clients? Did you steal them from where you were? No. They approached us. Yeah, they approached us. I mean, I have quite. A few people say they've been approaching me since I was working for the place. Quality and your work. And yeah, we've been working together. They learned. They learned well, when you when you're a ceramist, people see your work definitively. And I'm quite sure that your ceramist sees your work. And there's that mutual respect. And so you had probably more cases out there that people saw and connected your name. Now, basically all our clients are just recommendations of social media. I didn't go after anybody. So nobody from our client know. Did you explode with work? Yeah. You did. You never had that. Oh, no, we're not going to make it feeling it. Just the work came funneling in. And you. Yeah. How did you use social media to get your clients? Yes. Their dentist. That's quite interesting because what I found, this is like beautiful media to to to show yourself. So consistency in posting cases cases during the process. Uh cases finish cases in the mouth. Uh collaboration with the dentists. Some of the more known, some of them less known. But, uh, if you can show the case what you've done and is visibly well done, there is no question mark. Is just talking. How do I find her on Instagram? Yeah. So. So do you follow Dennis and then they follow you or like. Yeah, I'm not Elvis. So just explain how you find the Dennis. Well, I have a small clientele starting with. Okay, which which the guys approached me from the beginning. And step by step, they seen the cases. Got it done by this guy. Yep. And then the other one wants to have the same cases. That makes sense. So step by step recommendation social media LinkedIn. And got it. And we fall by now. Wow. Half a year later we we have it's only ready for a male that is still available six months. Yeah. How do you guys manage your time? Are you working? Like sincerely. You up all night or. I mean, it's, uh. Well, do you work weekends? Used to be. You used to be quite well balanced. But lately, uh, we had quite a lot of other times, but weekends are for us. Yeah. That's that's. We always try to keep the weekend as weekends during the week. Work hard. We can play hard. Do we have kids yet? No, no, just the cats. This the white cat? That's my son. He's our mentor right now. There you go. It's awesome. So, yeah, I mean, seriously, are you working well into the evening? Like, you have dinner and go back to the. Yeah. And then you, like, wake up and you're in your pajamas working. Oh, no. No, no pajamas, please. No. But sometimes. Yes. Completely professional. Completely professional. We're trying to keep it. It might be small life yet, but we have attitude of something better than that. You want to grow? Definitely. You want to get out of your house. You want to have other employees. You want it? Yeah. Nice. When are you? When? Think magically you're just going to be like, okay, we got to start hiring somebody. It's going to happen very soon. Oh, good. Because, you know, you don't want to burn out. No. You're way too young. Yes. Way too hard work too. I know two of us to control everything. It won't work. We need to have a good team. Yeah. And we will get there. I mean, really soon. Yeah, we. We try to get first the milling machines and us printers are already there. And as we get all of the machines, we we just kind of start hiring people. Yeah. Yeah. So how do you split up the, uh, the grunt work? Is it all on you? Well, first come to me. What's grunt work? Well. The models. Well, yeah. That, um, taking models off the build plate. Washing them. Okay. All the stuff that nobody. Really. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That's the husband. The husband? Yeah. Okay. That's where I was getting that. I would I would say, I need to say that very loud and honest, that without him, he wouldn't start anything. Because I'm a ceramist and I feel artist, butt head and heart of this business is immense. Yeah. I cannot do any of that. And without him, that wouldn't happen. So I need to be very, very honest. Okay. You guys are going to have a good night tonight. Well, we've had sweets and I mean a lot of people. You know, you're a technician. You're like, I want to start a lab and I want to do lab work, but all that other administrative and business and games and again, that's that's all it is for the level. If not, I wouldn't really think the same damn way with my boyfriend. I swear, and I'm Polish too. I just want to focus on the art and the ceramics, and I don't have that business mind, and I'm okay with that. Yeah, because I don't want it, of course. And that's the ying and the yang. And that is just like, such a great combination. Definitely. As long as you don't be like, okay, I'm tired, I can't do it anymore. Well, he is then he get told off and he has to carry on doing it. That's what happens. That's Polish for you. It is. What's the name of the lab? He's the black Pearl dental lab. The black Pearl? We've heard of that lab. We have you? I've heard that name. I have heard that. Yeah, well, you're six months in. Yes. I feel like I've heard that name. I don't know why. How do you. Where did it come from? Oh, okay. So that's the story. A great question. That's a good story. So black Pearl exists in nature, which is rare and expensive. Yes. So it's a beautiful thing, but not for everybody. And not cheap and the same. You have watched the black Pearl in the Pirates from Caribbean, I believe. Yeah. Oh. That movie. Yeah. Yeah. Pirates of the Caribbean. Caribbean. Well, we're USA, but yes. About that same. So there was a ship which was independent pirates and and they just do whatever they wanted to do. So we decided to be a precious independent. Pirates of the 10th district. Damn. We're going to quote by that name. Yes he did. Wow. That's really cool, I love it. I do think it's a great story, because you always tell that story and you'll always remember that story. And, and and just it's just the pride of it. We really want our business to have personality. We don't want to be one of those. What is your what is your Instagram? It's, uh, black Pearl. No, it's still on my name. Because, as I said, my business has personality, so it has my name. So it's Agatha Buck T. A g a everybody that can't see us. We're all going to Instagram a and B a k t I see you. Yes. It's me. Blonde and curly. Yeah. Your hair's a lot. Pouf. Your hair. All right, all right. I'm following you back because I want to see this black pearl stuff right here. Put. Do it for me. Oh, Barb. See what I mean? Yes, I do. I'm not. Everybody go follow her. That's listening. This is some great stuff. Yeah. Thank you. AG a t a b a Instagram. I love it. That's cool though. Yeah. It's good. It's building. Helping build your freaking business. Yeah. That's pretty. And you're here for a mil. That's a pretty special story. What are you looking at? Sorry. What mil are you looking at? Anything in particular? You can. You can say brand names. And all we considered of what I found is it's quite cost effective for a young business. Yeah, yeah. Is that just Korean thing? Yeah, that's what I think is d u f o d o f d o f d o f. So, is it the letters or do you say Dolph? I have no idea. I mean, that's what they call it. Well they don't they don't like them. Yeah, but I know what you're talking about. I know you're talking about. Well, it looks. It looks really exciting. It's like like a cabinet. So again, it's not huge. No, no, we we are just two of us. So we need to consider spacing. We need to consider the basically organizing the space. Yeah. And we don't need a big machine. So just for for the clients we have currently at the time. Yeah. Yeah. What do you what room did you convert to your lab? One of our room. Yeah. Just remove everything and then put the lav in there. Yeah. So is this a lab? Officially, it's a lab just inside the house. What are your products? Um, I might know ceramics, but, like, is it. Is it? It's not all inclusive. Are you focused on, like, multi-layer and. Yes. So we are GC related. Yeah. Future hopefully GC. Okay. And. Well, I know who you guys rolled in with. So that's probably not far away. I'm talking about people. Yeah. So we we do mostly veneers, single centrals, all interiors. Um, a lot of skin which is the micro layering for GC style. What else? These. These mostly. Yeah, we do DST. It's it's all aesthetic. It's a kind of bridge and implant. No metal? Absolutely. We don't use metal at all. I don't use it. And everything. Zirconia, Emax or Lissie. That's the way to go. And you keep your product portfolio small when you're selling stuff that, like, you don't really. It's. It gets too diluted. I mean, we can do it. Yeah. It's just why our clients decide us to to do what we are the best at. Yeah. I want to do a bit more full arches, but seems like they prefer me to do the veneers, so I do the veneers. Do you still do single posterior? Yeah, a2. Yeah. If they come, no problem. Whatever comes as long as is um, basically in, uh, either in lithium, the silicates or in zirconia is fine. Yeah. Yeah. Doesn't matter when you get your own mill, you got to do pre shaded pucks. Are you going to go white and then dip and stain or what's your what's your plan. Because you got to. Well yeah one mill and a lot of stuff to do. Yeah. Well so we I don't think so. We discussed that yet. Uh oh. Well I mean there is a plan. That's a great question though for them to consider. Yeah. Yes. That's actually a good, good subject to bring up is I thought about it. Um, I mean, materials like a temporary, like a PMMa or wax. I'm going to print it. I'm not going to mill it 100%. It's much better. Um. We're gonna go with, um, zirconia, which is, um, it's a dry meal. And I saw in the exhibition. Like you, you don't have to buy a lot of disk with different shades, right? So there are, like, multi layers disc with really good, uh, metaphorical strength. Yeah. So you might gonna buy three of these. I mean basically you need to have in your stock and accordingly to the production we have, we order the material and then we can if it's like A1, A2, you can use that disk for these two shades. It doesn't matter how many. So like funnel them a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Majority is going to be zirconia to me if it comes to customized abutments or these materials are sent to milling centers because these type of products do it. Right. Exactly. Like to create like anchovies or Atlantis, these big milling centers. Um, because it's high risk with, uh, implant abutments. He's really thought about this. I know he's good. He's good, I know I don't I don't take halfway. I want it for package, but I bought the milling zirconia. It is fine because I check myself that if I'm ready for that, because I have a lot of responsibility already. And this is going to be added into it. Yeah. So. Bingo. Yeah. That's why I'm just gonna go with the dry milling, not dry and wet, because it came to my mind to get dry and wet to mill my customized abutment. And then why would I want to do that? I don't have a time. Yeah, to do this. And this is the next step in the future when the business is bigger, you buy a bigger milling machine. You add into this, you get technicians. Yeah. And then you take a little bit of the load off your back. Absolutely. So we're back in two years and you come and you bring all 14 of your technicians with you, and you talk about the 13th mill you're buying. It's going to be exciting. I hope so. I hope so. Fingers crossed. Yeah. Thanks for the wish. Yeah, absolutely. No, but thank you so much. Thank you. So great to be with you. That was a great, fun story. I don't know if we've had a husband and wife on I Love you. Not this week. I don't know, this week. You had the first one. Yeah. There you go. Thank you. Thanks for having us. Really? Thank you. Good luck with the mill. And I'm glad you grabbed that headset. No. Thank you. The whole world needs to hear what you guys have to say. So. Thank you. Thank you so much. Bye bye. All right, so you want to hear the origin story of zakat in America? Yes. Okay. Yes. So here we are at the X of it. What are you looking for? Nothing. I was telling my organizer. Let him. Let. Yeah, go. I'm good. I'm organizing. So here we are at the expo card booth at IDs 2025. Still. Still still. Yeah. What a floor, what a week. And someone who. I've been running into this whole show. Larry, how do you say your last name? Bodoni. Bodoni? Yes. I'm good. You said that first because I would not have gotten it close. Larry Bodoni I've been running into you everywhere. You shared a cab together. It was because of you that I actually found out where the heck I was going. Are you brought a bag? Yeah, you got it for your study, so thank you for that. It's funny because we're at Oxford, but you used to be the president of Zakat America. For how many years? 13.5 years. 13. Nearly half years. That's amazing. For a company celebrating its 15th year. So you were a I was a founder. Yes. Founder of American America, the American division, which is no small feat. It began very small. Yes, I would say so. Now. I was lucky enough to run into you at a party two nights ago. You told the story of how you ended up with XO cad. But I won it again and I wanted to record it because it's amazing. Okay, so, um, first of all, let me preface this by saying that probably three quarters of the people in this booth have heard this story before, I'm sure. Okay. It's such a great story. So our listeners, a lot of our listeners may not have heard it. Okay. So I apologize to anybody who's already heard the story. So the the story goes that I was working for my very first dental company. It was called Sensible Technologies. We invented the world's first digital. Partial denture system. It was a scanner. It was software. It was a 3D printer, and it was a beast of a system. But it created good partials. It was successful, but the company was 25 years old and could not survive on the revenue that this dental thing was going to do. Yeah. Okay. So one day at, uh, at, uh, Lab Day Chicago 2011, uh, the board met and decided they were going to dissolve the company. I was fired the Monday after lab day. So in Chicago, they decided to dissolve. Yep, that had to. They couldn't wait. Yeah, it's the timing, but it ended up as you'll see, the timing ended up being better than you might expect. So I was informed the day after lab day that I was no longer an employee. I had two kids, a mortgage, uh, college funds, all kinds of stuff going on. I was pretty desperate. So after I punched a few punching bags that week, uh, I decided to, uh, I decided I was going to basically buy a plane ticket to come to IDs and look for a job, because where else are you going to find a job? Quickly, but at IDs? Okay, well, I was debating whether to continue. I was I was debating whether to continue in dental. I said if I'm going to continue dental, I might as well go to the biggest dental show in the world. Right? Yeah. Have you been here before that? I had been here once before with sensible. Sure. In 2009. And, uh, sensible was a very small player. Didn't know many people here. Didn't meet many people here because I was on both duty. But I got to see the monstrosity, so I knew what I was. I kind of knew what I was walking into. Yeah. And so I bought myself a new suit. I did a brand new resume and I walked into IDs. Well, first I had to get a hotel reservation. Of course, you can't get a hotel reservation anywhere near here, anywhere near a time of IDs. So I was actually in a hotel. One and one quarter hours north of here by train. Was the only hotel I could find. And after searching for like, two days for us on the internet, I finally found one. And the first one I found, I made a reservation, I got there, I get here, I walk up to the hotel and it's a disaster. It's one of the worst hotels I have ever seen in my life. In fact, there's both prostitution and drug dealing going on in the open, both outside and inside the hotel. I want a good time on this phone. So I'm like. So all of a sudden I'm thinking, oh, this is going to be a heck of a trip, right? So all I do is I go in, I didn't even eat because I didn't want to go out of the room. I close this tiny little room and the next morning I wake up early. I put on my new suit. I bring my new my new resumes. I go outside, I get on the train, and just as I'm walking on the train, somebody spills an entire cup of coffee over my new $500 suit. An entire cup. It was just drenched in the front. They run into you and just. Well, I was going up the stairs and they were at the top of the stairs and just dumped it on me as I was walking up. So the person even apologized. No, no, this is the train was packed. It was just, you know, anyway, wow. At that point the damage was done. So I got to IDs, I, I get in, I, I go to the bathroom, I'm trying to sponge myself off, you know? Paper towel, you know, do the the sink wash. Yeah. Bad scene? Yeah. Bad scene. So then I, I knew two people at the show at that point because that sensible was no longer there, and I, I wasn't in marketing, so I didn't have a lot of contact. So I knew somebody and I knew somebody at, uh, closer. Yeah. And so I went to see both of them, and they were very nice. They're both still good friends of mine, and they really tried hard to get me a job. But it's kind of weird being sort of a senior level technical slash management guy and coming here to a thing in the middle of a show and, you know, it just wasn't really working. So then I went off on my own and I started walking up and down and up and down all the cadres of the show every 17. But who's counting, I am. Um, and so finally, uh, after three days of walking the show, uh, back and forth to this ridiculous hotel, I met a lot of companies, but nobody really had a job for a US guy. And I called my wife that last. It was. It was Thursday night of the show, uh, you know, Friday night of the show. And I said, I'm sorry. I think this was a disastrous mistake to come here even to begin it. And she's like, well, don't worry, you gave it your best shot, you know, that's it and all that stuff. But while I was walking through the halls, I kept hearing about this thing called Scad. But they weren't I. They were no booth I could find, but they were inside. They were inside a few other Iman gearbox, a few other things. And I, I walked into all those booths and talked to them. And so I finally said, look, I don't know what else to do, but there must be a company here somewhere called Scad because they're all over there, you know? I hear about them all over the place. Do you even know what it was? No. Well, I knew it was. I knew it was dental CAD software. Actually, I did know it was CAD software at that point. That's for the CAD. Yeah, but I was not a dental CAD software expert. I was, I knew integration, I knew how to integrate printers and scanners, and that was kind of my job and sensible. So, uh, finally I find them. They weren't in the directory because they had scheduled their booth too late. They missed the prints. They missed the print. They the deadline. So it took like an hour of the show just to figure out where they were. I walked, I thought I'd walked the entire show, but I didn't walk in the far corner of Hall ten behind the Korean toothbrush vendors. Oh, okay. I figured I could see the corner and there was no additional booth that looked at, so I must have gone. I was in Hall ten, but I never saw them before, so finally I realized that they were actually here. I looked at the desk and they said, yes, they're in Hall ten and there's such and such a place. And so I go there. It's I'm walking, but but more walking. Oh, manly of you. More walking all the way to the corner. And I finally find the CAD booth. What was there? A booth, a table and a drop cloth. No, no, no, it was actually a pretty nice booth, but it was very small. It was. It was probably, I don't know, ten meters by ten meters. It wasn't a big thing. It had a few vertical columns with a few monitors on it, and it looked like CAD software on it. Okay. But there was nobody in the booth where it was completely empty. I mean, this is Saturday. This is Saturday, the last day of the show. There's about two and a half, three, two hours left in the show. So somebody should have been there. Yeah, that's going to be me today at four. Okay. So what do you do? So so I'm so I'm looking at the software. I'm looking around the thing I'm seeing if anyone is even interested. Like maybe a customer can tell me what's going on or something because there's literally nobody there. And I'm aimlessly walking around the booth and I look up at one of the walls, just they have a wall in their booth, and there's a little picture frame, maybe eight and a half by 11in, and in it is a sign. And the sign says looking for President North America. Is that not a true story? It's a true story. There's a picture somewhere. There's a picture, actually, I think teal has it of that wall with that picture on it. That's so crazy. So suddenly I get very excited and I'm like, okay, now I really have to find somebody. Yeah. So there's a closed door there. And so at this point I knock, knock, knock. No answer. They're like, what the hell's knocking on a closed door? So I opened the door, which happens to be open. Oh, and what do I see but a long conference table and two guys sitting in a supine position on their chairs. They are literally like, head back, like, exhausted. Like they're nearly dead. And it turns out those two people were Tilman Steinbrenner and Mike Gerth. Yes. Oh, and you were like, I'm here for the job. And so I. so I did a quick read of the room. Okay. And I'm thinking. Probably not the best time for a detailed interview session. Oh my God, that's the bomb. And they were in their 20s. Yeah, they were in their 20s. Yeah, they were young. Uh, both. And, uh, and so I walked in with my resume, which which I managed to grow with me through my coffee, stayed suit. Oh, my. What did it have coffee. Honestly, still, I mean, I didn't have time to clean it because I was here every day. The resume, although the resume had a little in the corner. That was coffee in the corner. Yeah. And I basically said, hi. Is this job still available? Yes, it's still available. Are you considering, you know, clients from. Yes. We love. That's why we put the sign out. We're looking for somebody in North America. Where do you live? I said, well, I lived in Boston. They said, oh, good. And I said, so we'll be in touch. They said, yes, we'll be in touch. And I left. That was your whole first. That was my first interview. And then they still laid back and they went right back into the supine position. They were just like, checked out to the hell was exhausted. Well, this meeting small and I, at that point, I was slightly hopeful. Yeah. But being a realist, I figured it was about a 10% chance you're actually ever going to call. Yeah, right. Two weeks later, my phone rings. It's Tillman. He goes, are you still available? I go, yes. He goes, well, I'm coming to Lab Day West. Uh, I said, okay, I'll meet you at Laugh Day West. And Lab Day West was where we actually consummated the position. So you actually sat down and had an interview? We had an interview. We had a he wasn't exhausted. Yeah, well, he was exhausted because he came from Germany, but anyway. But yeah, it worked. It worked out. Talk about that first interview. Was it more questions at you, or were you asking them more questions on what had was? Well, by then, since I had seen the sign, I had gone on the web and actually analyzed what they asked. I mean, I did my I, you know, I wasn't going to be idle there. You went in ready to rock, ready to rock. And I was already looking for other jobs here. Because you can't you can't wait. So but when it showed up, it was obvious to me there wasn't like a plan B here. I was going to do it. And at that point, it turns out I am employee number nine at X Acad. There were eight people. Wow. So including the two, including Tilman and Mike. Mike. Yeah. And you were hired that day at Lab Day West? Yeah. There was no, like, let me go back to talk. No no no no no no no no no. Did you guys talk about vision and stuff? What he was looking for for the company. At that point, he was more evaluating me. He was evaluating more like whether I could do it and whether I had a, you know, a head on my shoulders. Yeah. And, um, and we really I found out really what the company was about when I first went to that was in May. And then in August, they invited me over to go to Germany. And so what did you do between May and August? I was actually trying to set up a printer distributorship because I thought that was my backup plan was to set up a printer, distribute printer, 3D printers. Yeah. Yeah. You weren't sitting around. So I wasn't sitting around your brain. Right. But when they gave me a ticket to Germany, I said, okay, well, you know, this could happen. Right. And then I went there and then till gave me. And I still think this is the best advertisement for xkcd was when I wish I could have recorded Tillman's teaching me xkcd for the first time. Oh, it was so clear. It was so crisp and clear. Well, that the underpinnings, the basis of the software, was meant to be a base of software for lots of things. Yeah. And when I saw how clear he was about it and I didn't know much about, I didn't know enough about dentistry at that point, I'd only be in dentistry for three years before that to know how successful it was going to be. But I knew it was going to be clear and easy, and I thought there was a a market for clear and easy after I'd walked the floor. So I thought about that. It's okay. It was originally supposed to be rebranded. Yeah. No one was supposed to know. Know that it was zakat. Exactly. ABBA gearbox was one of them. And everything else. Zircons on zircons. But as it evolved, it turned out that CAD knew more about CAD than anyone else that I knew about. Of course, we had always had three sharp as a competitor, especially in the US. Yeah, they started out when I started. They had like a 90, almost 85 or 90% market share, you know. And uh, Dental Wings was around and they were around. They were fading. Fading. So it turned out that this vision that we had in that first tree training of, of, of Exel had really carried through the entire 13 years I was there. And we just kept adding and adding and adding and adding not only technologies within CAD, but also the partnerships, which I was heavily involved in. All the scanners, all the printers, all the mills, all the cam, all the art, uh, tooth libraries and implant libraries. You know, it was it's all got to be together. So it was just fascinating to watch this occur from literally something that was just literally a couple of screens of, of stuff a brain into now what I think is really more of an ecosystem. Yeah, it's really a full ecosystem. So how much was expected in America before you were hired? Zero zero. Well, I mean, as a percentage, it was zero. I mean, there was one distributor and like a few people, you know, this is what 2011 was when we started. Yeah. 2000. Yeah. So really, like, nobody in America was really using it. There was a handful of systems out. Uh, B and D was actually the distributor, which we no longer could. We actually they ceased to be a distributor shortly after. But um, so we began to build a dealer network. How does that happen? What do you just contact? You go to trade shows, you shake people's hands and you tell them that you think you have really good CAD software, and then you work like heck to prove it to them. Well, how did you know? Was it your vision or Tyl and Mike's vision? Yeah. To want distributors to. Distribute zakat and not be that it. It kind of, um. It's interesting. We actually never I don't think we I don't know if we ever actually spoke about that. It was just we were trying to sell, and I knew and I knew, I knew in the US because it's so big. I wasn't going to know everyone who was going to use zakat, or I think Tilman said the other day that it was all about they already have the relationship with the labs, right? You know, that's your that's your end, right, to come into it. Oh, the distributor. Yeah. To come into a country and not already having that hands you know in in what am I saying the, the the connection with the lab. It's hard to create that. So your notes and your and your Zorn's and all that, they already have it. Yeah. So, uh, yeah, we were in zircons line. We were in Amman gearbox. You know. So I worked with those guys also to learn more about zakat and help them as much as possible. But then it became clear that zakat pure was actually in some ways better than all the derivatives. Yeah, because it was going pretty fast. And so now the zakat brand Bran became more dominant than the ones who were using it? Yeah. And that occurred organically, really over a couple of years. That was never a plan. It was never a plan. It was never a plan. We we we generated the generic version and each each OEM basically rebranded it themselves. And we help them do that. Yeah. Right. But then it became pretty clear that people just wanted the eggs. Okay. They didn't care about the rebranding so much. What did you. They gave you America, basically. Right. So here's. Oh, no no no no no. They didn't give me America. They gave me North America. Oh, they gave me Canada and Mexico as well. Oh. So what did you do? Did you be like, uh. Well, I guess I'll go to. Let's see. Alphabetical order. Alabama first. I mean, no no no no no, that was I, I thought about that, but that's that's not a good strategy. It's like it's like going to every lab, you know. It's like, uh, it's not going to work. How do you grow that? Actually, mostly a trade shows, mostly a trade show. So we we were kind of the, the stealth people. So everybody else in a trade show is selling to the people in the aisles? Yes. I was selling to the people in the booths. Oh. That's okay. Oh, I just connected that. That's that's the trick. Yeah. So for us, there was no such thing as a bad trade show, even if there were hardly any people there, which happens a lot in the early days there. All the booths are still there, and they're board ready to talk to somebody. But they are. The more ready they are talking. No, not in this. Yeah. The more, the more bored they are. Already are. So I started going to trade show trade shows that distributors met. Distributors who had clients. Lab clients who? Yeah. And then a few of them amazingly said yes. I'm still shocked that they did, but they did say yes. Why are you showing your sparkling purses? Because they didn't. They didn't really know. Okay. You know, at that point nobody knew anything. So it's a risk. You know, we're all worried that there would be another not so great software, right? You know, we all got burned at some point with something. And you don't you worry about doing that again. And these early days of selling to distributors in America. Yeah. They all had to have that fear, right? They all did. And the one thing that really worked was word of mouth advertising of from the end users, from the technician technician saying, this is great stuff. Yeah, yeah. It really, really technicians made our reputation. Yeah. They were the ones in the in the rags and in the, um, in the meetings and the leaving the local regional meetings. You'd hear someone talk to somebody, and now we've suddenly got an order through this distributor for that guy. It was like a. It was really like watching a web of things happen. I mean, you could probably go back on this podcast and listen and watch the organic growth over the last seven years of exochus and how much it was barely mentioned to more to everybody. Now we're here in Germany always talking about. Yeah, I mean, it's just that's exactly what happened. And I'm just I just consider myself the luckiest guy to have, like, hopped on the train early, you know, it was it we we, we managed to hire we went from, uh, I started it with, uh, Johnny Orphan. Itis a pretty well known transition he's been on. Uh, and so what was his role with you? You hire him? Oh. Well, don't forget, I had only had three years in dental when I started. Yeah, so I needed somebody behind me who actually really knew dental. Yeah, right. And that's John and that's Johnny. How did you know him? Well, he was the staff technician at at sensible before I started. Oh thank God. So you're like, oh I got this guy's number I know what I know what technician. Great. Let me call him. So you brought him up. Yeah. Well it's a it's actually more complicated than that. I didn't want to go through all the details, but. Yeah. So when did you start growing your team? Do you have sales people did that even? No, no, no, we never had salespeople until I hired Marc in I think it was eight years ago. Oh, eight years ago. I basically did all the selling for the first 6 or 7 years at the agency from. But again, we didn't need thousands of customers. We needed a few customers to sell to more to labs. So even when I left, I think we had 45 or 50 total customers, and this was a sales staff of three, but the first 5 or 10 were like really important. Like, every one of them was really important. Wow. Like imagine and evolution. Uh, took a last stab at us. The early ones. Jensen actually did an interesting thing, but that was a sort of a side thing. They were. They were a dealer for, uh, lava. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Right. Yes. And it turns out three, um, decided to get out of lava. Yeah. So suddenly they had 300 labs with lava scanners, and they had to make a they. The three have said you have a choice. You could either go to dental wings or you can go to CAD. Wow. And I worked that relationship big time. We got, like, all of them. Almost all of them. So wait a minute. Am I understanding that everyone that had a lava scanner could buy CAD software and still use the scanner and still use the scanner? That was a brilliant move. Yeah. Yeah. So that was part of it. That was part of it too. So that was you guys idea to gather. You like ding ding ding. What about one other option? Do they have just. Yeah, actually, I don't have to recommend you. I, I, I, I, I had to I just ran into the guys from Jensen that I knew from the trade shows. And it's all about the trade shows. Yeah. Everybody started going back to trade shows. So I don't know if it works today, but that question. So you were retired but obviously you're not retired, right? I'm not retired. You're really great with them. Yeah. Built the hell out of the company with them. And then you retired. Right. But you've got a bad bite suck shirt off. Right. And I've been. And I know that you have been here all day. Every day. Yeah. So you're not really retiring, right? So what's your deal? So did you get bored? Uh, well, yes, I it and I'll say yes to that question because basically I did three months of nothing. Uh, I had a lot of family issues and, you know, dealt with all that. And then, uh, and then I realized I had nothing to do. And then my wife kept spending money at a ridiculous rate, so I, I so I figured, okay, I'm going to do some consulting. And so I looked around for companies and I found this amazing company. And it's it's funny when you grow up in like one world of like PC software for dental CAD design, right? And all of a sudden while you were doing that, this thing called I popped up. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so I met these guys actually at Zakat Insights last year, uh, two years a year ago. And that's when I met him. And you were there, too. And I was definitely. I was in my mind, I was like, that'll happen. They've grown. We were right around the corner. Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. And so, uh, they told me, look, we have this thing and it's I. And it's bites and it's it's cool, and you should see it and all that stuff, right? And so I said, all right, so I, I went in there and I asked just like some basic questions, okay. You know dental now right. Yeah I know a little bit a little bit. And uh, they said, oh, we have 5000 customers. I said, well, you what? You're 5000 customers. Yeah, we have 5000 customers. I said, oh, and a year and a half, they've only been online for a year and a half. Right. I said, okay, so but really people try it and you know, and they said, they said how many of those users continue to use the software? They said, are you ready for this? This is the most amazing statistic, 94%. That's 94% of people who try it. Use it again and use it again because it's saving time. Because it's time. And all it does is find bytes. And since I'm on a post in the CAD booth, I will say the only good integration is with Excel CAD right now. Yeah, it's just like a button. Yeah, it's just a it's a button in the DB. You click the button, the scans get automatically uploaded to the server. You click the button, you get to not only static occlusion, you get dynamic a jaw motion file. So you can do the dynamic occlusion and execute on any Excel CAD restoration. Works with any scanner, works with any printer. Uh, as mil. It's amazing. Don't you find it kind of crazy? Yeah. That you retired from Excel CAD? Yeah. Went back to consulting. Yeah. And you're consulting with a company that's taken off. He's 29. Yeah. Correct. Act I. Yeah, I think it's Tillman. Yeah, when they were in the 20s. You find all these girls now? Oh, yeah. Listen, did you find that ironic? And they're connected. Yeah, I know. They were already connected before I joined them, which was even better. That's my point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Don't you find that ironic or fate or. Well, listen, maybe God doesn't want you to retire. Have you thought about that? I think there might be a message in here. I think there might be a message. Well. We'll see. But we've heard nothing but good things about bad bite suck. And you came on yesterday. Yeah. And it's remarkable. Yeah, it's a remarkable product. And so I'm there as an advisor. I only work one day a week there. Except here, obviously. I'm in the booth. Um, and I'm sort of kind of assisting them to see how to best address the North American market. I think it's hard that you mentioned why you're here working their booth, because you consulted them that you need more than four people at ID. Yeah, yeah. That's right. They only have a few people in the company, and there's a gigantic. Yeah, they're all here. They're like, I gotta help people. Even the developers are here. The the wife of the president is here. I mean, it's like, you know, it's like a family thing. So, so anyway, so, uh, so I'm really excited about that. It's just that it's infancy right now, but it's so exciting and I really love it. So how do you get to be in with them? It's going to be in their infancy for what the rest of the week. And now. Yeah. No no no, it's it's already actually out of its infancy with 5000 customers. You're not in your infancy. And consult with a company like that. Is it mostly advice like this is what I think you need. Yeah. And and tactically when they need something like a marketing piece like I did a little chart, you know, about comparing this against the other ways of getting bites. Um, you know, I've come up with some value propositions. You know, I'm just trying to really help them out. They'd be like, hey, Larry, we want to work with this company. Do you have any contacts? That is a part of it, I will say, I will say Norm Weinstock with lexer. I know you know Nora. Oh, yeah. We have a list of things that we, you know, check off at IDs. Because he's always thinking, oh, yeah? Have you seen him here? I haven't seen he didn't he didn't come. Okay. I didn't think so. But anyway, uh, so. Yeah. So I'm just. I couldn't be happier. These new 20 somethings are just as exciting as the 20 somethings that I've worked with 14 years ago. Maybe I forgot how much energy they have. That's that's the weird part. Uh, it rubs off a little bit, doesn't it? Well, a certain amount when they were out til four in the morning yesterday, I didn't actually do that. But anyway, they were, uh, they're all here and they're all here. Oh, absolutely. They're all here. The rubber band. If you can hear yourself, you've got a ton of energy. Yeah. So it kind of goes together very well, and it makes a lot. So that's the story. You still have the suit. The coffee suit. What's that? Do you still have coffee? No, I got rid of that. I got rid of that. Yeah. It's iconic. Yeah. They should frame it. Put it up. And did they notice the suit when they were back? Like, I'm sure they didn't. I'm sure they did. I'm sure they did. They didn't even like I think their eyes were squinty, you know. Awesome. Awesome. Thank you so much. It was great. I really I'm glad I had a chance to come over for two. I'm so glad to get that story and get it out. And what you've done with XO CAD. Like I said, this podcast for seven years has been a testament to what you've done. Yeah I agree. Well, thank you for for spreading the word and spreading the message I have. I have zero talent in this area. And and I think you guys do an excellent. Really, really great job. Thank you. I've listened. I've listened to a bunch of them, so I. I can't do all of them, but I, I do listen to the later ones. All right. Thank you. Well thanks again. Thanks for having me on. Okay. Take care. Oh my God. A huge thanks to Agata, Eamonn and Larry for sitting down with us on our very last day in the Exochus booth at the IDs 2025. We honestly, genuinely love hearing about love and love and you could have seen those too. They were so cute. Agathe and Eamonn. They even sound like they work together well, which I'm sure they do actually, because they have great chemistry. So keep an eye on these two. I have a feeling we will be seeing more of them making waves in the industry. We just heard recently that they are in fact moving out of their house and are looking for a ceramist to join their team. If you are in the London area and want to work at an amazing lab and be sort of a third wheel in their relationship, hit them up. Instagram I love that. We cannot thank Larry enough for all he has done. He actually helped Elvis and I get to our spot. Oh, he was amazing. Yes, that was awesome. We needed him. Thank you for all you've done for North America and for honestly just being a really great guy. So happy that you are still in the industry and still leading with the new software. And as we end our run of conversations at IDs, we can't say thank you enough for that and for the fantastic and amazing opportunity trip of a lifetime. Sincerely. So thank you to everyone who helped us live our nerdy dream. Thank you so much. XO, Chad. All right everybody, that's all we got. Say farewell to Germany. Farewell. We'll talk to you next week. Have a great week, guys. Bye. And I have their names right here. What did I do with it? Son of a bun. Sorry. Hang tight. Technical difficulties. The views and opinions expressed on the voices from the bench podcast are those of the guest, and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the host or voices from the bench, LLC.