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So Barb, an overdue congratulations are in order.
Oh my God, what did I do now, Elvis?
Didn't you all recently announce the Simply Arch studio?
Yes, we did.
That's awesome. You know that's right up my alley there.
Of course I do.
And just for anyone who hasn't seen the announcement, what is this Simply Arch thing?
All right, so Simply Arch is our dedicated full arch lab. So it's high quality, full arch cases are a big part of what we do. And we wanted a team and a dedicated workflow and a production environment built specifically around them.
So basically just no distractions.
Exactly. Just a bunch of full arch nerds doing full arch things.
Oh God, a bunch of nerds sounds terrifying.
It's never terrifying of it.
And does a new studio Also mean new toys.
Yes, and of course we recently brought in Xterra Mill as part of the project.
Hell yeah, nice.
Yeah, and then of course came the cam decision.
Here we go, the old cam decision.
You know, Elvis, we tested a couple options, and of course, we landed on Hyperdent.
Like Hyperdent, just as easy as that, As easy as that, pretty much.
The quality off the machine was excellent. So that means also no hand finishing, and the milling times were excellent also.
You're right, that does make the decision quite easy.
But honestly, what really stood out to us was the testing and implementation process.
How so?
You could immediately tell these guys live in a world of high, complex milling challenges.
That's got to build a lot of confidence.
You know what? It really did, and it really does. They weren't just showing us how the software works. They were advising us on the best way to build an entire workflow for our lab. You could tell they've done it 100 times, guys.
That's a whole new different level of expertise. Well, congratulations on the new studio, Barb.
Thank you. Hats off to my dad for the studio. So it means a lot to me.
Aw. Welcome to Voices from the Bench, a dental laboratory podcast. Send us an e-mail at info at voicesfromthebench.com and follow us on Facebook and Instagram. Greetings and welcome to episode 442 of Voices from the Bench. My name is Elvis.
My name's Barbara again.
What's happening, Barb? You look a year older.
I am.
Did you have a birthday the other day? Yeah. How was your birthday?
It was fantastic. I got to watch my grandson.
Anything special?
No, they came over. My grandson came over. My kids came over and they got me flowers and a card. I don't know. I used to love birthdays. Now I'm kind of a little ho-hum about it, but I'm still grateful I'm alive and healthy and so far so good.
That's true. I believe you. You used to be a whole birthday month kind of person, weren't you? Yeah, not so much.
I'll come back strong next year.
There you go.
So now I have a seven. So we'll see how it goes. So what's happening?
There you go. I'm training up still. Just got back from a run because coming down to those final weeks before the race for the future. So even though I run a lot, I've really been lacking on like speed or.
Well, are you trying to win it or race it?
No, you know. I'm just not into just trying to get a great time. I'm just doing it to raise the money.
And it seems like you're doing good. I see you on Facebook. You're almost to 1000. Have you hit 1000?
Not yet. Not yet. Luckily. And yeah, great opportunity. Thank you to everyone that's donated. I know a few people caught it on Instagram. A few people caught on Facebook. There's still a chance. It's September 27th in Valley View, Texas. I just looked, there's 18 people from this industry that are risking that rough Texas heat to raise money for the Foundation for the Dental Laboratory Technology.
I love it.
18 people are going to be out there doing this. I'm just one schmuck. But you can still donate. As we mentioned, Facebook, Instagram, I'm doing those personally. Or you can head over to dental labfoundation.org, hit that donate today button. and just enter my name or Barb's name. She's doing the virtual just because she won't be there. She's still there doing it in spirit.
Yeah, man.
Yeah, or you can just type in voices from the bench and they'll split the money. It all goes to the same place. It really doesn't matter.
But if you do donate, thank you.
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely. And I don't know if I mentioned this, but logistically, because they moved this race to Valley View, Texas, we're leaving the race and going directly to the airport. Oh, yes. Let me tell you. you how sweaty I get after a 10k I don't know what I'm gonna do I'm like on Amazon looking up like shower wipes or something.
I'm not sitting next to your plane.
Yeah I might have to donate all my money to the people in my row Hey, you know what? This week we finally get to have a conversation that's been about three years in the making. We finally get to sit down with Michael Wandling and there's a pretty good reason we wanted to make this conversation happen.
Yes.
Mike was named the 2025 CDT of the Year, but his story goes way beyond that award. From getting his start at Keller back in 2001, working his way through casting, metal finishing, control training to become a department and production manager, eventually opening his own lab, becoming a CDT examiner, serving on the NBC Board of Trustees. Jesus.
He's an overreceiver.
Helping shape the certification exams themselves. Right. Mike has spent his career not only working in the industry, but giving back to it. He talks about how that journey unfolded, what drove him to keep pursuing additional certifications Master, Master.
Yeah.
Why training and education has always been such a big part of his career and what it really means to be recognized as the CDT of the Year. So join us as we chat with Michael Wandling. Attention, dental lab owners and managers! Think about your daily workflow. Are you still hunting through piles of paper invoices? Are doctors texting you to see if a crown is even finished? Are you logging into six different portals just to grab digital scans from your doctors? You didn't start a dental lab to become a full-time paper wrangler. It's time to streamline your business with Lab and Cloud. Built by techs just like you, for you. Lab and Cloud is the ultimate all-in-one platform engineered to run your entire lab. With over 90 powerful features, you can automate everything. You can track cases in real time, generate smart invoices, manage local delivery and shipping, and handle employee time tracking. All from a single, cloud-based dashboard. Even better, your doctors will get a dedicated portal to submit cases seamlessly. In your digital scanner files, they route automatically into your workflow, completely secure with full HIPAA compliance. Stop burning time on administrative chaos, scale your business, delight your dentist, and take back your day. Visit. labingcloud.com right now to book your free personalized demo. That's L-A-B, the letter N, cloud.com. Labing Cloud, your lab simplified. The operating system for dental labs built for text by text. Hey, just mention Elvis is handsome and get one month free. Hey listeners, have you ever wondered what the hell I'm doing when I'm not recording voices from the bench? Believe it or not, I actually have a regular job. I'm a client rep for Derby Dental Laboratory. So I'm in the field all day, all the time. I'm either doing chair sides or I'm building relationships. and rarely am I in front of a computer. Well now here's a fun fact for y'all. Dental labs grow by keeping their customers and doing more business with them. Now that's my job. keeping those doctors happy and keeping them coming back for more work. It would be virtually impossible to do that without iCortica. So how do you get visibility with your accounts? Are you exporting data vomit in the form of a spreadsheet that only gives you a small piece of the puzzle? In fact, using Excel makes me angry and you don't want to make me angry. iCortica gives me everything I need at home or right on my phone even when I'm sitting in my car. I can see sales, remake rates, notes for my LMS, and it even tells me exactly what my risks and cross-sell opportunities are. I could even see if a doc just called to complain before I walk in the door, because honestly, that is a door I might choose not to walk in. The key is I'm always prepared and never surprised. I honestly wouldn't be able to do or enjoy my job without it. So head over to iCortica dot com to schedule time with them today to learn more. Icordica, stop digging for data and start taking action to keep more customers and more revenue. That's I-C-O-R-T-I-C-A dot com. Love you, Rob.
When lab owners talk about ROI, the conversation usually starts with price.
Yeah, but it really shouldn't end there.
Exactly, Elvis. But because the true return on investment isn't what you pay on day one.
It's what your equipment delivers every day after that.
No doubt. So think about the hours spent remaking cases, troubleshooting equipment, or waiting on production to get back on track.
Those are the hidden costs that quietly eat away at profitability.
But now imagine A workflow that keeps moving. One that delivers consistent results day after day so your team can stay focused on serving customers instead of solving problems.
That's where Roland's DG Shapes DWX milling solutions will definitely make a difference.
Reliable performance means more productive hours, fewer interruptions, and the confidence to take on more work as your business grows.
Because when your equipment is dependable, every completed the case contributes to your bottom line instead of your stress level.
And that is the real ORI. More production, more efficiency, more opportunities to grow.
Not just a purchase, it's an investment that continues to pay dividends long after it's installed.
So everybody, if you're looking for a milling solution that's built to support your lab today and well into the future, go ahead and visit RolandDental.com and discover Roland's DG Shape DWX Milling Solutions.
Voices from the bench. The interview. So here we are, long time coming. I think we've been trying to schedule this conversation for probably three years now. But we really wanted to do it last year because we have the 2025 CDT of the year joining us, Michael Wandling. How are you, sir?
Hey, I'm great and I am so happy to be here today. Finally. So yeah, the last time that we did this was back in Chicago. Chicago probably in 24, I believe.
Wow.
Yep.
And then just so you know, in 25, because in 2024 when I did this with you guys in Chicago, I was the first interview of the of the weekend and I thought that was cool. So then I'm like, okay, I'll do that again for 25. I came. The booth wasn't ready yet. And then every time I would stop by, you add somebody there. And that's just a reflection of how great this podcast is and has become because of both of you. Everybody wants to be part of it. And so I just kept walking by hoping it would be open. It never was. And then last year, same thing. And then I would run into Elvis at Labfest and talked about really wanting to get together to do another podcast. And it still has been such a trial to get that together. But we're so busy. Everybody's got their labs that they're working in and running. And I completely understand. I'm just happy to be here today.
Yeah, any rescheduling on our end, we apologize.
It was probably my fault.
Yeah, maybe, but a little bit of me and a little bit of everybody. But when we were at LabFest, I was like, I don't want to do our 15, 20 minute casual talk. We want to hear the story of the 2025 CDT of the year.
No doubt.
Appreciate it.
How'd you get into this mess, man? How did you find out about teeth?
Take us all the way back.
Okay.
When you first got into it.
So this is going way back, but when I was in college, I had some friends that were getting ready to go into dental school. Then once they were in dental school and I was still studying business, they had brought up I was a little bit undecided as far as what direction I really wanted to go into.
So you chose the general business?
Yeah, that was a recommendation from my mom. She goes, if you don't know what to do, then just get your degree in business and you can use that pretty much anywhere. So I wasn't really... Yeah, I wasn't really in love with the business classes though, because I couldn't really apply them to what I was doing in everyday life. So they were a little mundane and all that kind of stuff. So jumped around a little bit, but I did the friends that ended up going to dental school brought up to me that, you know, there's this whole side of the business called Dental Laboratory and that they had some friends that had worked at Keller. in St. Louis that they're always hiring. And I might want to look into that if I'm looking for something else. And then long story short, I could learn, you know, kind of learn the trade. And then when I learned all that and they graduated from dental school, then I could, you know, do their lab work for them. And- That's a sweet- I know, right? Yeah, but I did, but none of that ever came out.
Of course not.
But anyhow, it at least got me into Keller and getting started. And that was back in 2001.
So hold on, so you graduated with a business degree. Those guys said, Hey, you should check out. And then you went and interviewed with Keller.
Yep, they only had lab tech positions. They didn't have any kind of like administrative things going on. It was just more of lab technician, so-.
So where'd you start?
I started in Crown and Bridge and I actually started doing waxing, metal finishing, and casting. And casting, nobody wanted to do the casting role. So they're like, hey, here's the new guy. Let's do it. And back then, you know, that was pretty much it. You had a few metal free restorations. You had Empress and you had gosh, there was...
Oh, Eris, Eris.
Yep, and Procera. Was that that yet? Yeah, it was just kind of there. But if you remember Procera, which was one of the first kind of CAD designs, and we could, you know, you'd have that little red probe that would scan the dye and then you'd have... Was that the Forte?
Isn't that what that was?
Are you extending your knowledge?
I'm trying. We had that here at summer and I remember seeing that and it was such a weird kind of way to do it.
Was because it physically it physically touched the part of the die. So but the main the main thing was really casting and I was doing upwards of sometimes 40 rings a day, which holy moly.
No wonder you passed your CDT exam.
And then also casting partial frames too. So that was kind of, they put the new guy to do all that kind of the A lot of the mundane things that didn't need a high level of detail, but in the process of casting, then I also learned how to do some waxing and then metal finishing. And that was a big part of my first few years. And then I got into doing some quality control.
So hold on. So did you kind of gravitate to casting and metal finishing and all of that? Did you just know that you enjoyed it and that it was like a career option for you?
Or did you not have a choice?
I had no choice.
Did they give you an aptitude? Aptitude. Thank you.
They had different tests. They had different tests. Like they had a chalk carving, they had an eye color test and all those. I passed all those fine. But they just didn't have anything available other than that role at the time.
Yeah.
Makes sense?
I wasn't sure if a business guy could use his hands. I wasn't sure.
Yeah, somehow I figured it out. But probably from playing, playing sports all my life, hand-eye coordination, I think it kind of helps.
No doubt.
So anyways, after that, I did some quality control for Fixed. And then this was what really kind of got me started was we were getting busier. We were starting to hire more people and they were in need of a like a full-time Trainer.
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.
So this is something that has come up a lot over the past few years when an opportunity presents itself for me. Now, if I feel prepared for it or not, I just say yes. You know, if it's something that's kind of presented towards me, because I almost feel like maybe this is a direction or possibly maybe this is kind of the path for me. So when this opportunity came up, the trainer position, I didn't feel like I was even qualified for it. So I didn't even apply to to take on that role. But I had human resources and some admin people pulled me aside. We would like we would like for you to apply for this role, we think that you'd be a good fit. You're good with people. You're good with your hands. You have the right temperament for it. And I said, okay, I'll give it a shot. And then they sent me to different places. I went to, you know, Keller at that time started to become part of National Dentex. And so some of the larger labs, you had Green Lab and there was, Stern down in Texas. And there were some different laboratories where they had kind of sent all the trainers from National Dentex to get some training done, especially with PTC training. And so then I got trained by Jim Mayhem, which is one of my mentors.
Great guy.
And so I learned the PTC and bridge and ceramics courses. And then I was able to bring that knowledge back to the lab and start training people. So when you get certified, back then it was you got a phase one certification and then you would come back to the lab and they called it like a phase two certification for the technicians. So then I'd get them ready. If you remember back with PTC, they used to do the phone drills.
Yes. We hated them. We hated them.
So part of their certification process was you would go over the drills with your team member that you're training.
Yeah.
Step by step process. So it's all, it's very systematic.
Yeah.
And object, it's built on objective standards versus, you know, just an over the shoulder guy kind of teaching more subjective standards like, hey, do it this way. And so the objective standards, they would have step-by-step procedures on how to wax a crown, how to build a crown, how to contour a crown, how to do all those steps. Same for the removable side, setting teeth and all that stuff. And once you went over the step-by-step process with your team member, then PTC would actually Do a phone drill and they would be the ones to go over the drills with the team member to kind of verify that they are PTC certified
So they would call the lab and just randomly like ask
well we would call that yeah when the team was ready we would call them and and say hey, you know Susie's ready for her phone drill on crown and bridge waxing and then they would they They would get on the phone and then I would walk out of the room and they would go ahead and basically kind of ask them questions and have them walk through the process just to make sure that they really knew what they were doing.
Everybody used to stress so bad when we had to do the PTC phone drills because you can work with your trainer. So Mike and you work together, but then you've got an other person on the phone drilling you. And we used to sweat those out.
Oh, wow.
It was awesome. Like it was a really great experience and a really great program.
Yeah. So then after being kind of a, I ended up becoming the director of training education at Keller, which was a great role.
So hold on. So they loved you so much that they promoted you. had to have been 30, right? Or under 30? You're pretty young.
Pretty close.
Yeah.
right around that mark.
Wow.
So you were always called to train people and work with them and mentor them.
I think what I found through this whole process is that I just really love training, that I really love sitting with people and helping them out and teaching them and just watching, it's all about the people in this business, whether it's the patient or the doctor or your team members or that if you can sit down and really take the time, make that person feel like they're the most important person at that time, which they are, and they see that and they feel that, And then they'll do anything. They will want to do their best. They will want to put out the best product possible. They start to think more about the patient than just another case. And if you kind of work with the team and just instill those values in them early on, they've become really great, great team members and great employees. Yeah.
Being a trainer, it takes a whole level of tolerance and patience and being able to not get angry at people and just want to do it yourself. I mean, you had to have, I don't know, did you already have that skill or did you have to learn it?
Listen to his voice. Can't you tell?
I can tell. I'm very calm.
I think he's dealt with me.
I just, it's just something that I think I was just wired that way. And
it's amazing. I'm just, most people aren't.
Yeah, I'm just, I'm a very, I've always been able to keep my cool and stay patient with people, even though you, the, like you said, you want to kind of, you know, grab the case and say, this is, this is how you're supposed to do it. It's just something I was just kind of wired. That's just how I'm wired. And it just, that's why I became the perfect match.
Sure. No, I love it.
Okay, so.
Yep, you're at Keller.
Keep going. So anyways, then we hit the recession time around 2008. And our hiring kind of went on a freeze. And the other part that changed was back then, it was still primarily PFMs, full cast on the fixed side at least, a few metal free options. But that was still not the bread and butter. The bread and butter was still crown and bridge PFMs and full cast crowns and things like that. So when you have a recession, a lot of times what'll happen, different costs will go up and we had the price of alloys skyrocketed.
Yeah, big time.
Okay, so that deters people from going to the dentist and it was frustrating for everybody around. So then you get into the whole thing of zirconia and that That goes back to Glidewall when around that time they came out with the Broxer crown.
And it was ugly and white and just a replacement for gold on a very bad posterior.
And they sent me out to Glidewall. I got the call. I was very fortunate that I was able to go out to Glidewall and kind of see how they did it because back then it was still, you melted out of a white zirconia and you still had to dip them and to whatever the shade A, B, C, or D, and you had the different shades. And when they centered, then they came out. And there's still zirconia that you use the color liquid on today. But this, like Barb was saying, this was very first generation, not the best aesthetically by any means, especially to consider what today's standards are with all the multi-layer products out there. So anyways, we started to get into zirconia and at that time Keller was at the forefront of laboratories that got into it. And I think back then you had to become a Bruxer certified lab to even offer that zirconia. That changed shortly after in the beginning, that's how it was. we started to do that and it really took off. And so then they actually had more of a need for me to take over as a department manager. So I ended up, the role of trainer, we got to be so busy that they needed more help managing the process and not so much training. And that's the sad thing is a lot of labs, they make that mistake to where training gets put on the back burner when it should be at the forefront. It should be at the center and people usually push that aside because they see how many cases are coming through and we have to get the correct workflow down. We have to manage the workflow and make sure everybody is following the standards and all those things. So I went from the director of training and education to ceramics department manager. And then I did that for a couple of years and then I became the fixed production manager, which I was over all of fixed. At that time, there was like 75 team members or something like that.
Wow, just been fixed? Yeah.
And then I had department managers kind of under me at that time. But that was That was some good old memories there. Yeah.
So I've got to ask really quick on that timeline, because you're kind of going up the ranks and you're training. What point, how many years later or how many years before did you get your first CDT?
Okay, so.
Designation.
Yeah, okay, that's a good story too. So I'll just go into that a little bit. But Larry Weiss, who both of you know, at that time was the president of Keller. And he had asked me, so at that time, the CDT program, we had four or five team members out of, gosh, 100 plus techs that were certified. And they were all, I'll just be nice and I'll call them seasoned technicians. Yeah. They had been in the industry already for, quote unquote, old seasoned techs that they were probably 25 plus years, maybe 30 years in the industry already. They were all probably within retirement of the next 10 years. And so Larry Weiss wanted to get more people certified to kind of start planning for the future and one of the biggest I guess I don't know not complaints but one of the biggest reasons why people didn't get certified is back then you would have to take all of your equipment all of your your handpiece or your ceramic oven or your Bunsen burner or whatever and you would travel to different laboratories around the country that were host site laboratories and so you know Elvis with Derby Dental was a host laboratory for a number of years yeah and so there's other laboratories throughout the country and people just didn't want to travel and take all their stuff so that was kind of a deterrent to them so Larry asked me if if I could look at what it would take for Keller to become a host laboratory. And so this would have been in probably 2000 and late 2008, early 2009. Wow. And so I looked into it and this is how I got my start with working with the NBC and the NADL. Just reaching out and looking at what we had to do to become a host lab, there's a whole application that you fill out, you have to make sure that you have the right bench space and outlets, Bunsen burners and all that kind of stuff. And then once we got accepted to become a host laboratory, we started to host CDT exams twice a year. And we went from four team members that were certified, possibly five Maybe I can't remember if it was four or five. But anyways, within a two year span, we got up to 17 CDTs.
Nice.
Just at the lab itself.
That's amazing. So was that you and Larry or Larry?
Well, Larry just asked me to get the thing started. And then I contacted the NBC, found out what we have to do. And then As far as how to get prepared for the CDT test, that was kind of what I ended up taking on my own. So to be a good host or to be a leader, a leader leads by example. So I decided, let me go ahead and I'm going to go through the steps of the process and try to get. take this myself and then I can teach others how to do it. Because going back to my days with training so much, I love to train and I love to teach people. So I went through the back then the Air Force manual and it's still one of the best resources out there. But the Air Force manual volumes one and two, I just went through them just like I was back in school going through a chapter, you know, a chapter a week and just kind of really And not memorizing it, I was trying to internalize it. So that way it became something that I understood and then I can teach it to other people. And we would set up study clubs to where we would sit down and we would go over the Air Force manual. And then when it came down to the practical exams, I would open up the lab on Saturdays for anybody that was interested to get their CDT that we would, I'd bring donuts in and back then my kids were really little. They were maybe my littlest ones were like two and three years old, so I'd bring them with me. sit them on the floor. Here's some toys. Dad's going to go help people. Dad's going to go. You sit here and watch cartoons and play with your toys. I'll be back.
Oh, that's hilarious.
So anyways, that was huge because the people that were really interested in getting their CDT, they've been waiting for so many years, just the opportunity wasn't right for them. So once we decided to actually host, they could come in and practice. They had home field advantage. They could use their ceramic ovens or boil outs or whatever they needed to use. And so opened up Saturdays for a long time. And then when it got to be like, let's say if we were testing in September, then six weeks prior to the exam, I would open up the lab and I would do kind of a mock run where I would say, okay, you guys start and you got 5 hours and 15 minutes and just make sure that, yeah, just this is the time to figure out the workflow, figure out so you get all the bugs worked out because when the day of the exam comes, it is so stressful that a lot of things that you think that, so you could have a, a 25 year technician that can do anything. But if they didn't really think about or plan out their workflow for that day, what are they going to do first? What are they going to do second? Those are things that you have to really plan for. And it worked. And we had, like I said, we went from five to 17 within just a couple of years. And then that just That was huge. So I got my first CDT in 2010 in Crown and Bridge. Nice. Then in 2011, I got my ceramic CDT.
So year by year, you didn't F around. You were all in. You're like, I'm gonna go for it. I'm fresh. I'm ready.
I'm doing this. I was all in. And then I received a call from Rachel from the NBC.
Love her.
she asked, actually one of the first things she asked was, what are you guys doing at your lab? Because whatever you're doing, we've just had 12 new CDTs within a couple of years. What are you guys doing? And I just told her about what I just said. I formed some study clubs and opened up the lab on the weekends and just made sure everybody was really prepared. And we were just very successful with that. And then this was one of the questions early on. And she said, would you be interested in, you know, when it comes to the CDT exams from time to time, we have to update them. We have to update the question bank. We have to update the job task analysis. Analysis, boom, that's what we meant. Outline and all those things of how the practical exams are done. And she said, would you be interested in in volunteering and helping with some of that. And in my mind, I'm thinking, I am nowhere near qualified to help with any kind of certification process. But again, I just said, yeah, sure, whatever. And I said yes. And that was really the rest is history from my work with the NBC that that really it started off with helping write, you know, write the questions, write updating questions because and nowadays it's really accelerating. It's accelerating so fast now to where we really have to keep up on that.
I just want to say on a side note, Elvis and the rest of the industry, Mike and I were the A-team and we've got a lot of questions that work.
So this has been mentioned, I think, a few times on the podcast. Talk about why are you guys the A-team? I mean, like you just handled the questions.
Obviously, so the A-team when this was one of the things, so we had to we were asked to. write some questions, send them in. And they brought us down. I can't remember if it was Orlando.
It was Orlando. Yeah, Orlando.
How many are in this group? Like, is there hundreds of people doing this?
Yeah, I think about eight. So they had four groups of two that they would break us up and they would give us kind of a group of questions. We would review them, make sure that you know, where the source is coming from, that that was cited and making sure the stem of the question makes sense and that the answers are relevant.
Sure.
What the question is. Barb and I killed it. And I'm just saying, I'm just saying that, so Barb and I got partnered up.
Red Bulls.
Yeah, I don't think it was a coincidence. I think we were partnered up and we just killed it. And we were the best out of the four teams by far. Barb mentioned Red Bull. So I had a lot of sugar free Red Bulls to keep my brain going because these are really like daunting tasks. You're in a room. with hundreds of questions that you have to dissect, you have to look up, you have to make sure that they make sense and all that kind of stuff. And it just is so mentally draining. I bet. Without the Red Bull, I don't know if I would have survived. Sponsored by. Right, sponsored by Red Bull.
I would just like to say, you know, in response to what Mike's saying, you know, when you see some things about NBC and all of this stuff on social media, like there's a lot that goes on behind the scenes with your peers, like Mike and I, you're going through hundreds of questions, trying to make sure they're relevant, trying to make sure the answer is not in the the answer to the questions not in A, B, C, or D, making sure everything's accurate, writing new questions, updating the exams. It's mentally, I agree, exhausting. And fortunately, we worked really well together, but we took it very seriously and we were game on from the minute we started to the minute we done, we're done. I would agree with Mike.
We had the best energy out of the four groups. Like we were really passionate about it too. We weren't messing around. We were gung-ho. That was, and I think it showed because we were definitely the best. So we got, I think we kind of gave ourselves the name A-Team, but that's okay.
You probably did and I probably agreed.
So what? people submit questions they think would be good on the test and your job was to make sure those questions are relevant and then you had to come up with the right answer and the wrong answers.
Yeah, essentially. I mean, it's not just anybody that, not just anybody wrote the questions. They were chosen as subject matter experts in the field.
Correct.
People from different laboratories that might have been, doing something at that time. And then it's like, hey, would you be interested? Kind of like me in the beginning.
Rachel's got a good read on people and she, she's excellent. And she knows if you have somebody that's going above and beyond and she pulls people in and asks them questions, say, hey, would you like to be involved? She had a lot to do with that for both of us. Yeah. Shout out to Rachel.
Yeah.
But how did you research it? How did you?
I mean, you have resources. So you have resources. You have the Air Force manuals, but then there's also books on morphology and dental anatomy and just the biology side of things. Just all those kinds of things. So we had tons of books there that we would flip through. I just had stuff, internet searches and stuff too. So we had tons of resources.
That's awesome.
So we'd have to go to page 352. Do you see the question? Do you see the answer? Okay, is that written correctly? How about the answers? Is the answer in the answer? And is there any that you have to change? And should we add a period or should we capitalize?
Oh geez.
Eliminate it because it's not a great question. And then it was, all day long for I think 2 days, 2 full days. But we worked our ***** off and I agree with you. We had the manuals and we had books and he and I would have to flip whether it was he or me and make sure because you want to make sure the certification.
Of course, yeah.
And it keeps its integrity. That's the main thing. as technology's changed, there's some, when you talk to just regular technicians out there, a lot of times they don't really see the relevance in getting certified and they don't because of technology and those types of things. And that was a challenge when we worked on the digital workflow was making sure that it was relevant, but you want to have the exams have integrity. You don't want them to just where everybody can pass. So you want it to be on the same level as complete dentures or crown and bridge or implants. And so that goes back into whether it's writing questions or updating exams. That's another thing Barb and I have done in the past is these big job task outlines that we would make sure that what we're testing on is what is being done in the industry. And so whether it's the practical exams or the written exams, they both, we've gone through them all with the fine tooth comb and Barb and I were a big part of.
You update them, you add digital, you take out a lot of the analog, you make sure they're current, you go through and you're talking 500 to 1000 questions. And is this relevant? Is this not relevant? Like there's a lot of work that goes into it. And I agree with Mike, it's part of giving back, but it's also part of what we do and we're passionate about it. So it was a lot of fun.
When you started doing this, Mike, how many CDTs, how many certifications did you have at the time?
I had two.
Only 2.
He's an overachiever.
I was going to say, I know you're a master, so you kept going.
Yeah, so I had crown and bridge and ceramics, and then Rachel had asked about, you know, if I would be interested in getting involved. And then I just fell in love with it. And then you fall in love with just the whole process of how the exams, just the makeup of the exams. And then you get to meet great people like, Barb and I'll just call out a couple of my good buddies, but like Randy Lund. And there's just so many really good people that you meet over the years that they become almost like an extension of your family. And so When I get together with these people now, it's almost like a family reunion because we've been through this for so many years and got to see the process and got to see the changes and the updates and just, it's just been a great, the whole thing's been great. And so anyways, that also got me, so going from item writing to the job task outlines, and then I got involved with Because we were hosting so many exams, I got to know a lot of the CDT examiners.
Yeah.
Okay, so they would come to the lab and we'd go to dinner and we'd talk and kind of pick their brain and stuff. And throughout this process, I started meeting people that were called master CDTs.
Oh my God. And your little light went off in your brain.
And I'm like, what? You're certified in all parts of the laboratory? How is that possible? Because when you start at a big corporate setting or corporate laboratories, a lot of times team members will get hired to do a job and they might If you get hired for fixed, you might do only fixed for the rest of your career or removables. You might only be setting teeth and that's all you ever do. And when you start to meet people that are completely well-rounded and they've been able to do all things, it's just like a big eye-opener. And I'm like, I want to do that because I'm a big believer in being a lifelong learner. Like I think You have to keep you have to keep going. You have to learn more, learn something every day, 1% better every day. Just continue to be the best version of yourself and try to push yourself, challenge yourself. And so after my ceramic CDT, the next one that I ended up going for was the implant exam. And that was an interesting one because it was kind of a cross between a little bit of fixed and removable.
Oh yeah, because it over dentures and stuff.
And I think on the last time we got together, I brought that up a little bit, but it was that transition because I was not a removable tech at all. And I just figured like, this is the one that I need to take to kind of have that crossover.
So yeah, smart.
I ended up, and this was, I took this one actually So now I'm out of just fast forward a little bit. I'm out of Keller in 2015.
Okay.
And I opened up my own laboratory.
Oh.
Okay.
I gotta ask you right now. How did you know you wanted to take the risk to open your own lab in 2015 because the economy was decent. You had a great job, you had great opportunities, but like, was there something else you knew was calling you and you wanted to do that?
Yeah, I think it was just...
Because I remember you told me that.
Yeah, it's just when you're working in a big production lab, As much as you want to put 100% effort into every case, there are so many cases that are coming and going constantly that I just felt like I wasn't able to put all my focus on just that one case that I'm working on.
Yeah.
Okay. So, and I wanted to put out the best possible product that I could. And I felt like sometimes when you're pressured and you're rushed to get You know, you have to get X amount of cases out today. We have to get, you know, 400 cases into shipping by the end of the day. And you're there's just so much that you have to do. I mean, you can QC every your Q seeing everything, you're looking at everything and you're doing your in your mind, you're doing your best that you can on every case. But in reality, when you have to push that kind of caseload through, There's just, it's human nature. There's gonna be things that get missed. There's gonna be, you're not 100%, you're starting to get burnt out. Your brain gets fried after looking at the same stuff all day long. And I just felt like that wasn't what I wanted anymore. So I wanted to put, you know, 100% effort onto every case that I sit down and work on for the patient and for the doctor. I wanted more from my relationships with the doctors because I had very little contact with the doctors back then. And when you have your own lab, you start to form real relationships with these doctors. They become your friends. You know, it's if they're having a bad day, you're having a bad day. And you kind of feel what they, you know, you feel what they feel. And and you start to put yourself in their shoes a little bit more and they put themselves in your shoes and it just becomes a good relationship. The very first year I opened the lab, it was called Horizon Digital and it was in St. Charles, Missouri. We were strictly just a fixed lab to start and I had a business partner that also had roughly, I think, 15 plus years experience too that we kind of opened up together. And that was the time where I had some, I have all the time now to kind of work on myself. So that's when I took the implant certification. In the implant certification, you have to set teeth on a denture. That was part of it. And then I actually took that exam at Derby. in 2016. And then the very next year in 2017, I took my complete dentures at Derby again.
Damn.
Yeah. So that was good. And then I actually, in the meantime, I was asked about becoming an examiner. a CDT examiner, because a lot of the people that become examiners, they've been involved, they've given back. They've done all the kind of stuff where they've wrote the questions, they've done the job task outlines, they've been involved. They are just very passionate about the industry. And that was I absolutely love that part of what I do too. That is one of the best things that I get to do. I'm so honored to be part of that group.
Yeah.
And to be able to certify new technicians out there grading their work. And it's just, it's just been amazing on that part. And then, gosh, this is probably going on my fifth or sixth year. I joined the NBC board of trustees with Barb, and that's been good too. And everybody knows probably by now, but Barb is the chair for the trustees. And then I'm the vice chair, so next year I'll step into her.
Oh, I didn't know you were vice chair. Yeah. You got to clean up Barb's mess.
Oh, nice.
Oh, she's doing a wonderful, she's doing an amazing job as the chair. She's, and this is the first year, and this has probably been brought up on one of your podcasts before, but this is the first first year that we've actually had women in the three leads for.
Yeah, that has come up, yeah.
The NBC trustee chair, the foundation chair, and the NADL president.
Thank you, Megan and Susan.
But how many trustees have been on the board that were also One of my, not the trainer, but I don't even know the examiner. Examiners, yeah. How many people have been on the board and been an examiner? There can't have been.
Yes, Brandon.
Well, before I think the first one was probably Harry Prasad.
Yeah, good dude right there.
But he's and he's the current CDT of the year.
Correct. Yeah.
But Harry, that was years ago. And then I was brought on. I can't even remember. I guess it was back in.
Somebody on this podcast might have been the reason that Mike was nominated. Who that might?
Be? Nominated for the board? Yeah.
Who nominated you for CDT of the Year? Do you know?
I don't know.
Many people.
Yeah.
You don't know? You don't know? No. If no one's stepping forward, I'll take credit.
You kind of have an idea, but they don't tell you. They will not tell you actually who nominated you.
Yeah. Well, what was it like finding that out? That had to have been exciting.
Exactly.
Yeah, that was quite the phone call because you get an e-mail and it just kind of states like you've been nominated for CDT of the year. And you don't ever think that you're going to win because there's so many great people out there. I mean, there's way more talented people than me out there, technical wise or they're educators or whatever that I try to, I'm usually pretty humble about this kind of stuff. So I just, I thought going into it, I'm like, I got no chance. Yeah. The judges voted me in and I just, I'm just so honored to be in that group. I mean, there's really some great people. If you look at the past two years, there's some really strong people in the industry that have been nominated and have won. And there's There's even more people that have been nominated that haven't won. I mean, there's some you're going up against some really tough competition really super tough and there's every person that's I would say Maybe not everyone, but just about everyone that gets nominated is probably worthy of it. They've given back to the industry. They've created something. They have a patent on something that's helped the industry. There's all kinds of things that go into it. But one of the greatest honors that I could ever receive, and I'm just still so humbled that I was the one chosen for it.
And after going over your history, obviously it was well deserved. It was pretty impressive.
Thank you. Thank you.
Congratulations again. I mean, like you'll never lose that title.
No.
So it would be wear it proud.
Thank you very much.
Yeah.
So what do you what's your lab now? Because I think it's changed names, hasn't it? It's not Horizon anymore.
Yeah.
So what?
Because we merged with another lab in the St. Louis area. And this was years ago. This was back in 23.
Okay. What brought that on?
So just a few different things. I mentioned when I had a business partner, my business partner, a little bit older than me, We were a couple of things. It's we were trying to figure out kind of exit strategies, thinking ahead. Like, we were still pretty new with the business, but when you have a business partner and you have to figure out thinking long term, do I buy them out? Do we have what's our succession plan?
Yep, great topic.
So anyways, an opportunity presented itself in the St. Louis area, a lab called Summit that was already established and they had been around for a long time. Your Summit.
Elvis.
No, I've never worked at a Summit.
Summer.
Summer. Got it.
Okay, my bad.
So anyways, the person that owned Summit was looking at acquiring some more, I guess, some seasoned technicians. And we were kind of looking for trying to figure out what's that transition going to be for us. And we ended up merging with them. It ended up becoming a very good marriage of the two. So it used to be Summit Dental Technologies and now it's called Summit Horizon Dental Laboratory. So We kind of changed the name because we incorporated the horizon from my lab and what's our. But it's been good. And I've, we have, it's not a real big lab. You know, we're probably small to just barely medium sized. But we have a great team, seasoned team members. We have, gosh, a few people here that have been doing it for over 20 plus years as well.
Wow.
And currently I'm running the operations manager for the lab.
So are you at the bench?
On specialty cases.
Got it.
I don't think I'll ever get away from the bench totally, but I don't know if I want to.
I don't think it's a negative. I was just curious. Yeah.
So most of the stuff I'm really focusing on, you know, the production of the cases through the lab, the workflow of the cases. I got to monitor and keep up with the quality standards, making sure that the team's following the standards before what they're working on and then what goes out the door. Talking to all the doctors, any questions or concerns that they have. And going out to offices, you know, just kind of wearing a bunch of different little hats. Pretty much everything. Yeah, it's kind of like a lot of what I was doing when we just had our own laboratory. But now that we merged, we have a stronger team. We have more equipment and a lot more doctors.
So when you guys merged, did you bring them into your building or did you go to theirs?
We actually went into their building. They had more space.
Okay. So did you buy the building as well as the lab? Lab meaning clients and all of that, or was it, I was just curious. You don't have to answer that if you don't want to.
So Summit already had the building and their own clientele. And then when we merged with them, we moved in with them because they had the space. And then we brought our doctors with us. And, it's just kind of like when you have mergers, a lot of times the leadership changes. So, I took over as operations manager and it's been really good.
And when you guys did that, you were talking about your partner being a little bit older than you. Is he still there?
Yeah, he's still there. Yep, he's still here. It's just when we were trying to think of exit strategies in the next like, you know, 10, back then it was like we were trying to think out 10 years. Like when it was closer to him retiring, what were we going to do? And this opportunity kind of answered the question for us instead of you know, me having to buy them out or think of other ways that we would, you know, I guess you really have two options. You can either buy out or you can sell.
Yes, exactly.
And so we ended up taking a third option, which was even better, which was a merger.
Sounds like it was a win-win for everybody.
Yeah, it was great. And we're still in the St. Louis area, so nothing has changed with that. But it's been good.
Do you miss the 100 plus lab life? No, that's a lot.
Nope, never, again.
Yeah.
You know, it's like as you get older, you just, you want things to be simpler. You want things to be. easier. And in fact, I mean, it can be so stressful when you have that many people. Think about it. Every person brings their own baggage from home. They have a bad day, they wear it on their sleeve, and then you feel it. And it's just getting people to care. It's always a challenge, always tough. But I do not miss that size of a lab at all. There's no way I can't. I could not go back to something like that. It's just too crazy.
Well, before we wrap up, I want to touch upon you doing something with Adite. He's like, yeah, I've been seeing that. Yeah. Touch on that real quick.
Okay. So yeah, I've just I've just recently became a KOL for Adite, which I'm just so happy. I've We've used their products for a number of years. And actually, it was at a Vision 21 meeting in 25. And I was over by their booth and I was talking to Tom, who's the president for North America Audite. And just an amazing guy. If you get a chance to talk with him, he's just, he's an awesome guy. And he's one of those people that when you're talking with him, he gives you his 100% full attention. And I've told him that. I said, you know, you talk to other people from other companies and just random people in general, and rarely do they ever give you 100% undivided attention. You know, they are focused on you. And I really appreciated that with him. So at that time, we had just started to test out zirconia. And I was talking to him about it. I'm like, wow. I said, we just started to try out some of your zirconia and I'm just amazed by it. And we've just, I think this first part was Azir, which was more of a monochromatic zirconia. Then we got into the Prozir. And so we've kind of developed a friendship over the years. I've run into him in Chicago and at vision meetings. And I've talked to him and just said, I just absolutely love the products that you guys offer. Everyone that I've brought into the lab, it's just been an amazing product. And so just recently, within the past few months, I was asked to be a KOL with them. And then I started to do a, I did a webinar a few weeks back on their Prozier Ultra.
Nice.
And that was a great, it was a great opportunity and I'm just very pleased to be a part of that group now too.
So will you be presenting in Chicago or doing hands-on for them?
I think we're still in the talks with that, but I think that's kind of in the plans to do some stuff in Chicago. So I'm sure we'll- So we're.
Going to see you all over the place.
Hopefully.
Well, you need to let them know that Elvis and I think it's an amazing company and an amazing material, and we're really happy for you.
Oh, thank you so much.
Really, really great. Couldn't have a better ambassador.
Seriously. So much.
Yeah.
Master CDT. Yeah. Well, you know, even though we missed the 2025 CDT of the Year conversation, I am so happy that we got to have this one. And Mike, it's always great seeing you. We've had dinner a few times. We've just been around a bunch of me. It's just always good. You're a good dude and I appreciate what you've done. I mean, so much as we've heard.
Agree.
Well, I really appreciate you guys too, because you guys have promoted so many people in the industry, so many different companies and so many different products. And without you guys, a lot of people would be in the dark on a lot of that stuff. So just thank you guys for doing what you do.
You don't have to suck up anymore, man. You've been on.
And we still like each other. Elvis and I actually get along still. So thank you.
Well, thanks so much, Mike.
Yep.
Yeah, it's been an honor to be on this with you guys. And hopefully the next time we won't have to wait three, you know, three years.
Exactly.
No, of course we're going to go. You've been moved up on the priority list.
And good luck at chair, Mister.
Thank you so much.
Awesome, Mike. Well, thanks so much, man. We'll see you next time.
All right, take care.
Yep, have a good one.
So a big thanks to Mike for coming on the podcast and telling us the story behind the technician, the trainer, the examiner, the lab owner, and now, amazingly, because there's not a lot of them, master CDT and NBC vice chair. So we are super proud of you. But what really stands out about Mike's story is how much of his career has been about helping other people become better technicians, plus keeping the standards of our industry moving forward. From opening his lab on Saturdays to helping technicians prepare for their CDT exams to working with me behind the scenes, A-team, A-team, on the hundreds of certification questions and job task outlines, he's clearly somebody who believes in giving back. Mike, thanks again for finally making this happen, and congratulations from both Elvis and I once again on a very well-deserved CDT of the Year honor. Hopefully, the next time we get together, we won't have to wait another three years. Hopefully, we'll stay in Chicago.
Such a great story about a guy who's given so much back.
I know.
We love it. Mike, keep doing what you're doing, buddy. All right, everybody, that's all we got for you.
And of course, we'll talk to you next week. because we go every week on this. Bye. Bye, guys.
Seems like as soon as I edit this, it's off to the next one. The views and opinions expressed on the Voices from the Bench podcast are those of the guest and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the host or Voices from the Bench LLC.