Hello, Voices of the Bench community. John Isherwood from Ivoclar here, inviting you to join us this February at LMT Lab Day in Chicago. Over the three-day show, we're excited to be offering 16 different lecture programs for you to choose from. Simply log on to labday.com/Ivoclar, that's labday.com/Ivoclar, to check out our lineup and register for these amazing courses. Looking forward to seeing you in the Windy City this February. You know, Barb, when it comes to lab day, I love hanging out with you and our podcast friends in the Ivor Klar Ballroom. But I was thinking, I really don't get down to the exhibition halls anymore, do you?
Know what, Elvis? Not as much as I used to.
Yeah, sometimes I try to sneak down there during the breakdown just to say hi to the few vendor friends that I have. But that's about it.
Isn't that nice of you? Maybe I should make it down there this year. At the very least, I can grab some cool swag.
I don't know. Doesn't it feel like giveaways have dropped in quality over the years?
Eh, maybe a little. Although, I did get a legit orange Hydro Flask from Follow Me last year. You know, the Hyperdent guys? Definitely not a cheapo.
That's right. They raffle those off for their milling roadmap activity. It's kind of like a mini scavenger hunt.
Yes, so full disclosure, I didn't actually participate, but I've got friends in low places.
Of course you do, Barb.
Normally you have to collect stamps from a few of their partner booths to qualify, but honestly, they're probably booths that you're visiting anyways, especially if you're shopping for milling equipment.
Yeah, but you might as well get some cool stuff for doing something that you're already planning on doing, right?
Exactly. This year, their featured partners are Axis, Imagine, DOF, and Roland. So you got to stop there, plus another few.
I've actually heard that they're switching up the grand prize. Oh yeah? they used to do cash, which is everybody's favorite. But this year they found a super cool Honda electric scooter and slapped their logo on the side of it. And it folds up like a ******* suitcase. It's like Iron Man. It's awesome. Jordan showed me pictures of it while we're in Vegas.
What? Of course you got the inside view. All right, that just might be the ultimate door prize.
Right? We're already walking the floor, collecting swag. This just happens to have wheels and can carry around a human adult.
Oh my God, you've convinced me I'm going to participate this year properly.
You should as long as we're not recording, but it's easy, and it actually sounds fun. The HyperDent booth is E27 in the East Hall. Grab your game board there first, and it's got a map to navigate to all their partner booths, and then you just collect it.
Nice, guys. Sounds like a plan. I'm in.
Oh my God, what have I done? I hope it comes with a helmet for your sake.
Yeah, thanks.
Welcome to Voices from the Bench, a dental laboratory podcast. Send us an e-mail at info@voicesfromthebench.com and follow us on Facebook and Instagram. Greetings and welcome to episode 411 of Voices From the Bench. My name is Elvis.
My name's Barbara. I'm gonna sing to you.
What's happening, Barbara?
Oh my God, worst day of my life, but I'm gonna be up.
Yeah, we had a recording scheduled and I get this frantic text from you. Yeah, lab life. I mean, it is what it is. We get it.
This is Barbara to the second power. So this is the new me. I don't get spazzy. I don't get crazy. I don't know. I just deal with things as they come. So thank you for rescheduling.
Even our guest was like lab life. I get it. No worries.
Oh, yeah.
So it is what it is. You can tell that we are a couple of hosts that actually work.
That's wrong. How are you?
I'm doing great. I don't want to talk about weather. I'm doing good.
I was going to say, let's not talk about the weather. And it didn't ****** snow, man. I tried. Oh, that's right.
That's right.
My boyfriend looked at me like I was an idiot every time I went outside. And I was just like, all right, Barb out. Sorry.
The nice thing is in about two weeks, you can enjoy all the snow you can handle.
Yay.
Because the countdown continues to Chicago 2026 with the debut of Barb as the chair of the Cal Lab Association.
So excited. I can't even tell you how excited.
Are you worried? Are you freaked out a little bit? Or are you just so like hyped?
I'm watching Simon Sinek and all these people that week I'm reading books. books. I'm going to an awesome counselor. That's like one of those leadership counselors. Oh, yeah.
Oh, wow. No pressure. You are kicking it up a notch.
All the stars are aligning so that I don't. Yeah, whatever. I'm only going to say positive things. I'm excited. So yeah.
Oh, yeah. There's nothing but positive things that come out of Cal Lab every year. So it's all kicking off Thursday, February 19th. The podcast will be recording at their cocktail event, which is happening from 4 to 6.30. You have to be a Cal Lab member to come to this amazing event and to see us at the cocktail event.
Yeah.
So what do you have to do? Cal-lab.org. Get all the details. It's really not that expensive for one of the best meetings.
And I love the fact that we're announcing it on podcast also, because we can have more people that don't don't know about CalLab, see the amazingness of it. So that's a new word. Amazingness.
And then the amazingness continues on Friday right after CalLab because we're set up in the Ivoclar Ballroom again for third, fourth year. I don't remember. That's right across from the registration desk at lab day at the Hyatt.
Yes.
We love this setup. We love being with Ivor Clara in the ballroom, and we're going to be there Friday afternoon and then all day on Saturday.
So, just saying, if you can't find us there, and I know you can, we might just be at the big bar. Won't be recording, so you can tell Elvis that, you know, you love him and he's amazing.
Well, you can say that while I'm recording, too. I'm not going to stop you. I mean...
Moving on.
Okay, so this week, we meet a dental technician in London that has set himself up a really nice digital-only lab called BiteRite. Michael Joseph got into the industry as a delivery driver, like so many people do, but Michael did it on a scooter, which is a little different.
Is that crazy or what?
Fascinated by what they were doing in the lab, Michael got himself a job in the model room. and eventually got into school to learn the craft. After working in sales for a few different companies, Michael missed that lab life, like we all do. I fell for it.
Except for today.
Yeah, except for today. And opened his own lab. Then COVID hit, and he almost lost it all. But thinking smarter and not harder, Michael pivoted to open a new lab that has no wax in it. Fully digital. Now Michael's running an amazing lab, doing everything including full arch photogrammetry all over Europe. So don't miss this amazing story of growth from referrals only as we chat with Michael Joseph.
Hey, voices from the bench listeners, Barbara here. Are you ready to take your digital dentistry skills to the next level? Then you do not want to miss Exocad Insights 2026. It's happening April 30th through May 1st on the stunning island of Mallorca, Spain. We're talking two full days of powerhouse keynotes, hands-on workshops, live software demos, and top here industry showcases all in one incredible location. And yes, Elvis and I will be there too, bringing you exclusive on-site interviews that you won't hear anywhere else. Now here's something extra special this year. The Women in Dentistry Lunch. It's a celebration of the women who lift this profession higher every single day. You'll hear from an inspiring panel about career growth, bias, well-being, and the real stories behind their journeys. It's one of those rare events that remind you why your work matters and how powerful we are when we support one another. And of course, I look forward to the legendary EXO Glam Night. You can network, listen to music, and have unforgettable fun under the stars. Tickets are going fast, so head to exocad.com/insights-2026 and grab yours today. And just for our listeners, listeners, Voices from the Bench listeners, use the code VFTBPALMA15 for 15% off. We will see you in Mallorca.
If you want to grow your business, you need to truly understand what's going on inside it. And of course, what's going on with your customers. And that's where Icortica comes in. It's the tool that makes seeing and acting on those insights easy. My name is Robert Rizzo. I'm the Head of Marketing, Sales, and Education at Canadian Dental Labs. We've been using Icortica for over two years now. It's become a cornerstone of how we operate. icortica enables my team and our organization to process all the vital information about our business performance and our customers' journey at a glance. It helps quickly identify where we should focus our efforts and figure out what the next best steps should be. With built-in tools, it helps take the guesswork out of decision-making and lets us realize opportunities early, and very importantly, helps us solve problems before they become too big to fix. And when we have questions, Rob and his team, and have to give out a shout out to Prudence, are incredibly responsive. They're always there to help us get the most out of the tool, and they feel like a real partner invested in our success. So if you're serious about growing your business and understanding customers better, Icortica is the tool that can get you there. To learn more or to schedule time with us to discuss your needs, visit icortica.com/voices. That's Icortica, I-C-O-R-T-I-C-A.com/voices. Icortica, helping dental labs grow.
Starting the year off right in the dental lab isn't just about goals. It's about results. This is when dental businesses really start asking the real questions. Is it our workflow delivering predictable productivity and profitability?
Because unpredictability is expensive, when production slows down, remakes can pile up, and ROI takes a hit. What we've learned is that constant output is what drives real financial performance and.
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That's why we rely on Roland's DGA's DG Shaped Milling Solutions. They deliver consistent accuracy, minimal downtime, and automation that you can actually count on. WX53DC doesn't just mill, it keeps production steady and ROI measurable.
And guys, real ROI isn't not about shortcuts. It's about fewer remakes, less waste, and the confidence that every job will be delivered on time. Backed by decades of Japanese engineering, DG-shaped mills are built for predictable performance that you can trust.
If it works this reliable, profitability stops being a guess. You know what your systems can produce, and you can plan your growth with confidence.
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Visit Roland DGA's DG Shape Milling Solutions at Lab Day Chicago booth. and see how consistency drives profitability. Crafted with Japanese precision, trusted by dental professionals worldwide. For more information, visit RolandDental.com. Voices from the bench. The interview. Barb and I, of course, are super excited today to talk to a lab owner out of London, Michael Joseph. How are you, sir?
Very well, thanks. Thank you, Elvis and Barbara, for having me on the show.
Absolutely. We love guests with accents, you know, or I realize.
Yeah, I've got a North London twang. So if you're from London, you know I was from North London.
Is it really that distinctive between a north and south of 1 city?
Yeah, north-south, east, and west.
Really? I don't think we have that in America.
They all sound the same to me.
Right, just state to state, right?
Yeah, that's crazy.
Barely. So Michael, we always like to find out how you got into this crazy industry.
Going way back.
Go way back. So I'm 49 and when I was about 18 or 19, I was traveling overseas and my neighbor who just got himself a scooter said to me, you know, you've got a motorcycle license. There's this courier company looking for people. So I went to work with them and they dealt exclusively with dental labs. So picking up impressions and from.
On motorcycles.
Yeah, on scooters. Oh, that's very scooters. 125 CC scooters. So I was always picking up stuff from dentists. And then when I pick up from a lab, and particularly some of them, I'd see this, like, when they'd see me at the door, this panic, and they're like ferociously polishing things. Oh, yeah. And I always wondered, what the hell are these guys doing, right?
Where the hell have you been? And how quick can you get this over there? Go, go, go.
They used to say that to me. Could you get there really fast? Could you go there directly? And I would be like, sure. But it was a very small city I worked in.
What do you think they had? Like body parts you needed delivered or something like that.
Well, what I was watching them doing was polishing, you know, with brushes, you know, like ceramic. And I was wondering, what are they doing? And then I heard them talking about investing and things like that. And I was like, what? Are they investing money? What are they doing here?
Oh, yeah, that makes sense.
I love it. Yeah, and I used to see denture teeth made-up as wax up. So I was thinking, if that, and I said, you know, I had a little prod and I thought, that's wax. How's that going to work in the mouth? So all these questions came up. And there was one guy who was particularly friendly, a one-man lab who I used to pick up and deliver to. And then I started to spend a little bit of time there with him and understand what the laboratory was doing, what they were actually doing in the lab, what the hell a dental lab wants. And then I subsequently came back to the UK. And in those days, there was no internet. So there was the London Evening Standard where jobs were advertised. And I just mentioned to my dad, I wouldn't might mind doing this. And he saw an advert, trainee dental laboratory technician wanted, no experience. So like that he was, he didn't even ask me. He just called him up. And then he, when I got home from work one day, he said, oh, you can take me to this lab tomorrow. They're looking for a trainee. So your dad got you the job? Thanks, dad. Yeah, he was very instrumental in all these kind of things. And he was, he was a kind of very motivated go getter type person. He was an osteopath. And then So I went down there and I started casting models. And then my brother was going to Manchester University to study accountancy or finance. And in those days, you used to get a prospectus book that everyone left in the toilet because it was something to read, all the different courses. So I was reading through it. And then one day, I was in the bathroom, I was reading through it, and they saw dental technology degree, BSc honors. So I showed it to my dad, and he did his thing. He called them up, and they said, well, they have all these requirements for A-levels. I was, I didn't do any air levels. I was not so academic at school. I had dyslexia. So in those days, they didn't really understand what it was. And so I found it hard to study and stuff. So when he called up the university and they said, well, they've got all these requirements. And then he sort of put the phone, you know, he said, oh, hold of me. He said, look, let's just get an interview there. So he convinced them to have an interview with me. And I went up there and I showed them that I'd been working in a lab. And they were like, okay, we'll let you on the course as long as you can pass the.
All right, so before we get into the interview in the school, You first started in a lab with the only experience of picking stuff up and hanging out a little bit. What'd you think when you finally got in there and had to do the actual work?
Well, I was really excited, but then I was, when I looked at the volume of the amount of work boxes there were in the morning there, because it was a national, you had the national health care. So it was like, at the time, the government were paying for all dentistry. So it was, you know, there was like 150 boxes to be cast. And it gave me one to do. And I spent the whole day asking and being shown how to do it. And it was unusable. And I was thinking, how am I going to do hundreds of these a day?
I thought you liked that stressful part. That's how we roll.
Yeah. Well, that's what I learned. So yeah, I got into it. And there were two other girls there working there who were very experienced. And as time went on, they left. And they didn't replace them. And I just kind of picked up the slack. And I was doing 100 trays a day. That's 100 sectional models, 100 solids. And in those days, there was no Pindex machine. So you kind of, you wrapped up the impression in carding wax and marked where the pins went in with inlay wax, poured like 50 of them. They went around with the pins before it went off, trying to get them all in the right places.
You did them in batches of 50.
Maybe not 50, I don't know, 20 at a time.
Yeah, I know, but still. That's pretty impressive.
You must be quite fast, honestly.
Yeah, I got I got very quick at it.
Yeah.
And they, in those days, in that kind of lab, you didn't, there was no like measuring water and plastic. It was just like, you got the sort of consistency you wanted and that was it.
Wow.
So how long were you there before you discovered the school?
About 10 months.
Oh, really? So you put some time in pouring mom.
Yeah, I did a lot of it to the point where my mom had to buy a separate washing machine because it destroyed one. All the bits of stone attached to my clothes every day. So they had a separate washing machine in the garage. to wash my lab clothes.
Your parents are very supportive of you in this career, Joy.
Yeah, they wanted to get rid of me. They wanted to get me working.
Is it? Do you need to have a degree in the UK? We've talked to a lot of folks in the UK to make more money, or do you need to have a degree to be in the lab? Like how does that, what's the difference?
Well, actually you can nowadays, see back then the dental technicians weren't registered with the General Dental Council. That came in much later. So at that point, you didn't need to be qualified or anything.
Okay.
So you could just learn on the job. But the traditional thing that people did was go on what they called a day release course. So when I started at that lab, I started in October and they were like, the course doesn't start till the next. September. So I was working and waiting to be enrolled in that. And then you went, you went to, you worked in the lab four days a week and you went one day a week to college to gain what they called a BTEC, which is like a qualification, the equivalent of a, I guess, in your high school diploma type thing. Just a bit better than that. And that was the qualification you needed, which was a BTEC. But you didn't really need to be qualified. Most people, a lot of people weren't qualified, they'd just learn on the job training over, you know, as an apprentice.
So back then it was an elective to go to school and learn that part.
That's right, yeah.
So did they teach you like vocabulary? Was it hands-on at the time or was it a little bit of both?
Well, I never actually went on that. Then I went to Manchester University and that was a full-time course where there was, it was also to give it the degree qualification. It was very material science-based. So you learned more about polymers, stone, metals, zirconia, and all that kind of stuff. And then we did like probably three days a week in the lab. over a year, we probably made one crown, one denture. It was very slow. Kind of like a dentist. Yeah, nothing was anywhere near clinical standards, as you can imagine.
Yeah.
How was your first crown?
It just looked like a piece of chewing gum. And my first gold crown was, you know, you can imagine, it just looked like a... a lump of something color, gold color.
Yeah.
We call them chiclets here.
Yeah, so, and there, yeah, and that's how I got into this. And then it goes further than I qualify. I did the degree and then I registered as a dental technician. By that time, registration had come in with the general dental counselor. So I registered, I think it was around that time or a bit later. And then I went to work for a lab also in Manchester for about a year. And then the wages were so low, I just couldn't cope with it anymore. It was so, again, I phoned up my dad and he said, well, I've just seen in the Evening Standard again, an advert for a salesperson to sell, well, at the time I didn't know, it was oroscoptic and loops to dentists. So I took this maternity position, one of the salespeople was going on maternity leave, and then I ended up, they didn't come back and I ended up being quite successful there. in sales. And then I moved to another company, which was actually Sirona. And then I moved to Skill Bond, which is actually an Argon company in the UK. They were the Argon Gold Dealer, and they're now the Argon Milling Center. And I worked there for a year in sales, which ignited my passion back for dental labs. And I decided to open a lab.
So you switched to sales?
For about four or five years.
Wow. And then it was the Argan area that made you want to go back and be awesome lab.
Yeah, the time when I worked in 2005, '06 for Skill Bond on the road, Emacs had just been launched, so I was doing a lot of sales. I'd sell a furnace and a whole Emacs kit to labs, so I got to know the lab community again.
Yeah, you wanted to get your hands back in it.
Yeah, so that kind of got ignited again, so I decided to open a small lab on my own.
So, what's that look like when you...
Well, that was a room in a... So, I bought some equipment, and then I had... From yourself? Yeah, my dad helped me. We bought some equipment, and I also had an outsourcing element. I thought to get going, I used a Chinese laboratory to help me produce work at first. And then... And I realized that I need to do everything myself. So I was making all this crown and bridge work in this service office, which was a new, it has all these offices for like accountants, lawyers, who just take a room. And at the time when I took the office, it was a new, there was no one really in there except me. But over time it filled up with accountants and lawyers and all different businesses. And then I used to get these calls from the front desk. It's sometimes like, you know, there's a lot of noise coming from your room, people complaining. I used to just, and then I used to start trimming models at night and the, what you call a garbage can, where all the waste water would go and I'd empty it in the toilets and the offices there. Oh geez.
It.
Was a whole thing. And then one day, one Monday they called me, they said, we've been into your room and you're clearly using it for manufacturing and you're gonna have to leave because the noise. Oh, you got caught. Yeah, I got caught. So then I rented the, I took a lease on the building I'm in now, which is about 2009. No, 2007, and I've been here ever since.
I want to know more about Skill Bond, because I don't think we have that in the States. I mean, they sold Argon and they sold Ivoclar.
Well, so Skill Bond was a guy set up Skill Bond, and then back in the early days when Argon, when it was actually the MD, I think it was Anton's parents, used to fly in and drive around with a gold in like a suitcase and set it out with a suitcase. And then there was this guy called Nick Sargent who opened Skill Bond, who had Skill Bond and he became the Argon dealer, but he also sold Ivoclaw products. And at that time, all Argon sold was gold. They weren't a milling center.
Oh, yeah, okay, yep.
And then eventually, I think Argon bought Skill Bond and they took it over and ran it as the dealer. And Skill Bond sold everything, equipment, they had a service department. And then as things developed, I think, I'm not sure how long ago it was, that they realized that the gold was coming to an end and Argon very successfully developed all of their global businesses into million. Yeah, that was quite brilliant.
Yeah.
It was a brilliant transformation.
Yep.
To actually successfully execute that globally is impressive.
Yeah.
You were there before Argon got them, right?
I think Argon had just purchased them, but they were still just selling gold and The lab was analog. It was 2005 and six. We're nowhere near digital.
So you were in just still selling all that analog stuff?
Yeah, wax, you know, casting machines, burnout furnaces, all that type of equipment, handpieces. There was nothing digital. I think at that time, 3M launched their first scanner and they started to open the milling centers, what they called.
Yeah, the 3M scanner. What was that stupid thing called?
Yeah, massive thing. What was the product called? I've forgotten what the product was called.
I can't remember.
There's a product. It's called Lava. That's right. Lava is a product. Lava.
Yeah, I remember.
So, yeah, when you can only get copings, opaque copings.
Yeah. What was your territory? Because here in the United States, territories or states? What do you have, countries over there?
No, so we, no, so obviously we've got, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and England, but it's divided into, Iowa's Southeast, which is the best because that encompasses London. So that's the whole, and then there's, and then there's Southwest, there's the Midlands, Northeast, Northwest, and then Scotland. That's how the territories are divided up in sales now.
So you must have been. able to build your laboratory. Were you part sales when you opened up your lab? Did you use that skill to go out and sell the dentist?
That was the great thing because over those years I built up a network. I mean, I didn't have like a Rolodex, but in my head I knew all of these dentists and practices and over the years dealing with them in all the different, the two different clinical companies I worked in. And then Working at Skill Bond Argon, I built up a huge knowledge of all the materials and the equipment, so I knew exactly what I wanted and what I needed, and when I worked at Skill Bond, they'd send you to Renfoot to learn all about the products, or they'd send us all over the place to all the companies to add extensive training on all the materials, and that helped me. know what I needed. And then as soon as I opened up, I called up all these dentists and I said, you remember me from Oriscoptic? And now I opened the lab and I gained my first 15 or 20 customers.
And so did you do all the work yourself that first year?
Yeah. Like I said, I used to get like Chinese labs to make me copings and stuff. But I realized very, very early on, this is going to be a nightmare. So I dropped that and then I rented this building and I designed like a fuel laboratory and I kitted out with custom made benching and it was just me and nobody in it. So then I hired first assistants. So I had more to answer the phone and stuff. And then I very quickly built a team and we just bought more and more equipment and that grew. And I had a lot of trainees doing that. Remember I told you about that way of studying where you do four days in the lab. So I had a lot of, quite a few girls. And they picked up, pressing, they'd each have four or five to press and finish every day, Emacs, and bonded work. I had a metal technician downstairs that I found. And then there was someone called Alex, a French guy who came in, he was a great ceramist, and then he really helped me get organized. As much as you could get organized. And then it went from there. And then right up, I'll fast forward to COVID, and then COVID came, and that destroyed me. that I had. I lost a lot of staff who went back to, because we had a lot of EU's people and then just pre-COVID was Brexit. So we had those two things to deal with in the UK. So there was, I came back and I had no staff and it was running around trying to find people. And obviously quality wasn't great because of that. And I lost even more to the point where I thought this is the end. I was talking to my partner and I've become very disillusioned with the industry and everything. And I got divorced as well. All those three things in one go. Yeah, that's nice. Wow. And then my partner, my new partner, I was telling her how there was a shortage of glycerin suppositories in Europe. And I was working out a way of getting them manufactured in India. And then I just was doing this. And she said to me, you know what? You're really good. You know what you're doing in that. You know nothing about this. Why don't you just look at a different approach? And then I just thought, right, what have I got to do? And I remember pacing around the lab, looking at everything. I thought, I could put a milling machine here and a printer there. And then I decided to, I said, right, let's move the remainder of the lab. A friend of mine down the road, he's got a bridging loans company, had a spare office. So I said, look, can I move into you for a couple of months? And I decided to gut the lab, every light fitting, every piece of everything. the benching, we removed all of it and started again and designed a fully digital laboratory.
Wow. That took a lot of guts coming back from reducing everything to rebuilding.
Yeah. So probably at that time I'd lost, I was down to about 15% of the customer base.
Wow.
That I built in the previous.
How did you get that? Just a partner saying it's time to think different. I mean, what really motivated you to. That's a, like Barb said, that's huge.
Yeah, because then I thought to myself, you know what? I'm good at this and I know what I'm doing. And I learned very quickly trying to go into pharmaceuticals. I know nothing. I wasn't getting anywhere. I didn't actually go into it that deep. And then, you know, me and her spoke and we worked out a way of getting the capital to do this because to redo the lab was, you know, a huge amount of money. Buying all the equipment. I probably spent about, I don't know, 750,000.
Easily.
Easily. Yeah.
No, because it was different. It was like having a proper networking with a good switch, proper. And I, always in my previous lab, I always never had the compressor thing sorted out. It was always like, I had like one of those like hobby compressors because you didn't really need compressed air. It was just for the air guns.
Yep.
Right. There was nothing.
But now you need it.
Now I need it. So I got a compressed air company to come in and assess the place and, you know, have a proper compressor system with, you know, pipe compressed air on a tested system and networks. And I bought a Roland milling machine and, you know, copies of Exocad, a Sieger printers. And I decided that I'm not gonna have a piece of wax in the lab. And I still don't. I haven't got any wax in.
So what made you go with Exocad?
Because before that, I was already getting digital scans, but another friend of mine who had a little lab where he was digital, I just sent him the scans. And then he'd send me the files and we'd have them printed by Skill Bond or Milled. So I kind of spoke to him and he said, actually, I knew it was going to be Exocad, but I also bought a three-shape system as well. But very quickly, eight months into it, we never used it. So I just got rid of it and now I just don't get on with 3Shape.
Yeah, there's another way about it.
I think 85, probably 90% of the labs in the UK are XOCAD.
Yeah, we've heard that.
My biggest gripe with 3Shape is why can't we make a viewer? Why do we have to have all this software? Why do you know what I mean? The easiest thing to say?
Yeah, it's a great point. I mean, I use my exocad viewer all the time just for looking at things real quick.
Right. And also even to download scans to get an inbox, you need a dongle and, you know, quite a sophisticated piece of software where all the other networks like iTero, Dexis, you can just download it from a website.
Yeah.
Those are my two big gripes with them and that it crashes A lot.
Yeah, well. There's been a few memes about that.
So yeah, so Exocad is definitely the choice for the lab.
So you put $800,000 upwards in equipment, revamping, re-gutting your whole entire laboratory. When you were at a low, you said 15% of your clients still had. You had to have a vision once you did this to rebuild your client base. So did you just relaunch your marketing as an all digital laboratory? How did you handle that?
Yeah, I did. There's a guy here who does a lot of marketing that I knew that very successful on the clinical end. So I kind of contracted him and he said, well, you've got to get an Instagram page and start making videos, educational videos, give them something. So if you look at my Instagram, I do a lot of that. I'd be very active. And then getting a proper CRM in with automation connected to everything. So there's all these marketing emails that went out. And then as I went along, I got a referral of one particular dentist. And from him, I just loads of work for him. He was really happy. And he probably referred me to another 50 other people.
Wow. Nice.
And then I realized that after spending 2,000 pounds a month on Instagram ads, which you get nothing from, I don't know how it is in the UK. In America, it's very, very, in the US, you're very different. I think dentists in general population are more receptive to sales than they are in the UK. And here, as I've discovered, the best place to get new customers is peer referrals. Yeah. And latterly now I'm going into, I'm trying to speak more at different events because that's how you get kudos with the dentist in the UK. Peer referrals, I don't do any advertising apart from my Instagram. Which my partner that makes all the reels for me, she handles that.
We definitely try for peer referrals, but.
But we are more sales for sure.
Yeah, I just don't think Dennis here talk as much with each other maybe. I don't know, maybe they do.
At this point now, 24 months later, that is a constant source of new business. And also teaching, exposure, going to loads, as many of events as I can. And study clubs and meeting people. having a chance to put my ideas about digital workflow, especially in the full arch area, because that's something I focus on, photogrammetry.
When you get referrals.
Oh, Elvis just went, ding, ding, ding.
No, yeah, we'll get that.
Photogrammetry.
When you get referrals from the doctors, do you... offer them something in return for that referral.
Yes.
No, it's really nice to them. They're very appreciative. They don't kind of want that. He's, you know, like, and I do get a lot of that business that way now. And I don't know, maybe it's a British mentality. They're just kind of passing on to their friends and their colleagues the name of a good lad because they all play golf together, they're all in the same society, they socialize together. I'm assuming it's the same in the States. So they all chat and they say, I've got a problem in my lab. And someone says, well, I've got a great lab. You should give this guy a call.
It's the best compliment.
I love it. Yeah. And I, since I reopened, I focused on some key areas, which is what every lab should focus on, I think, which is reliability and consistency.
Yeah.
And how do you do that? Like you just have a QC area, same technicians working in the same doctor's cases.
As it's developed, we now use a software called Great Lab. I don't know if you've heard of it, which is an LMS. Yeah. Seth. You just heard Seth. Yeah. I'm very close to Seth. We speak every day.
So I love it.
So what initially happened was when I set up the lab, I was using LabTrack and I realized that this is ancient. All of these softwares that are available at the moment were designed for analog labs and they've been kind of re-kind of jigged to cope with a digital laboratory. And what I learned is that an analog lab is admin light, writing invoices, booking cases in, and a digital laboratory is admin heavy, meaning file management organization. And I was actually contacted a pal of mine who's a developer and said, look, we've got to make some LMS. There's a youth market here for this. And he turned around to me and he looked at everything and said, are you ready to burn through $1,000,000 and get nowhere? He was honest with me, he said, this is a big undertaking because I went into AI and I told ChatGPT every single thing it needs to have and it produced this whole document for him.
Oh God, yes.
And he was like, this is a very complex problem. And then I was constantly... searching at night for different LMS. And then I came across GreatLab and I had a meeting with Seth and I just, I went with it and it's got some features in it and the way it operates, we've built a whole ecosystem around it in the lab. So every technician has a computer screen in GreatLab and there's not really any information on the lab ticket apart from a few details. And then they scan the barcode and then the whole case comes up with all the photographs, every single file, scans, milling files, printing files, metal milling, photogrammetry. It's all in one place. Wow. And all the notes are there as well. And what it's got, which is the best feature, I think, is something called ScanHub. So they have an API with iTero, 3Shape, Medit, and PrimeScan. So when we get scans, we don't check the networks. It comes directly into the LMS and we can convert that into an order in about 5 seconds. That's amazing. And it drags all the STLs, the photographs, the dates, the notes into an order. And then Great Labs also got some other features. I have Hagia's printers.
So do I. Yeah.
They're brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. I think it's probably the best printer on the market for a production laboratory, especially the A3D. So we've got a button in the LMS, which is a Hagia's button. We can select the print files and just send it directly there. It also has a built-in integration with our accounting package, also with ByteFinder. So it's got loads of integrations. So keeping everything moving through the lab, saving time, because it's so hard to find people who understand our business. And the only thing we can do is simplify it. Yeah. We're having automation. So what I'm doing at the moment is I'm harnessing every bit of software I have available, whether it's dentally related or not. to create an ecosystem that everything runs through the lab smoothly. And we have a protocol for everything. And for me, that's the key to producing good quality work every time that a dentist gets what they ordered every single time. And they don't need to adjust anything. No contacts, no bites. That's my big point.
How was the transition from LabTrack? I mean, did you have to rebuild everything or did it integrate over?
I'd redone the labs and nothing was really integrated yet. And I was trying to make a Sega printers consistently print out removable dyes, which I discovered that's impossible. And I called up this, there's a guy here called Wei, who's the, he's got a company called Intopia that are experts on printing and they were getting into dental. And I also had some of those, what is that printer called that everyone uses? It's not designed for dentistry. Something you can buy?
Oh, Frozen or something?
Yeah, Frozen, yeah. So someone said to me, get a Frozen. And so I had this pile up of boxes waiting for printed models. And I just, it was like all these failed prints. And it's probably down to us because printer errors, I find that 99 times out of 100, a user error, not the printer. It's very sensitive. It's like a very messy business that has to be done in absolute claims.
Interesting, yeah.
So this guy walks in and I said to him, look, I can't get these Frozens to work. And he said to me, no, you need a Haygears. And he showed me these two printers and I was under so much stress. I just said, okay, let's order them. And he was like, that's it, you're going to do it? I said, okay. And it was the best decisions I've made over the years have been split second gut decisions. And we have the A3D here printing, I don't know, hundreds of models a day, works probably 22 hours a day. And the misprints are... almost never. And if it is a misprint, it's our file.
Does it blow your mind thinking back to the days where you poured up 100 mile a day and now you're just printing? You're like, this is just crazy to me.
Yeah. I mean, we do make, we got some legacy clients, some older dentists that I'm not going to let them down. They stuck with me through the bad times. So we still cast their models. Yeah.
Really.
We still do about 5% analog.
It's about 5%. And they're nearer retirement and they're not going to get into scanning. I mean, like a year or two away in the 60s.
Yeah, we do the same thing. We have a small model crew and you've got to take care of the people that have taken care of you.
Exactly. But that's a very, very small area in the lab.
And you're the backup, right?
Yeah, I can always cast the models.
Are you at the bench at all? Just question.
No, I haven't been at the bench for 10 years.
Okay, got it.
Yeah, and I think right now how got the lab set up this whole ecosystem of how the cases flow through. I need to always be available to speak to the customers. So how it works is if you work with us, we set up a WhatsApp group without my lieutenants, Marta and Amelia, who, Marta's the admin, well, she's the operations manager, and Amelia is technical operations. So once a case is booked in, and it'll go off to one of our designers, because we have All our designers are external.
Oh, wow. Awesome.
Yeah. And we have a portal to send them work, which also I built, which connects to the NMS as well, because you can get lost in WeTransfers.
Yeah.
How did you find these remote designers?
Because I had one in-house and I realized that...
They're a pain in the ***. Just kidding.
Just kidding. I'm not looking at you.
Their expectations are beyond what the business model says. So they are... few and far, it's not many on the ground that actually can do the job. So when you find someone, they sort of want a salary that means 30% of your, 30% of what you're going to build a client is just in the design. And that just doesn't work. And they demanding these high salaries. And I'm just trying to, I work out one guy who wanted such a heart and salary. I said to him, you need to design 90 cases, including models a day, for me to be able to pay you that. Can you do it?
90 models a day. Wow.
90 units plus the models, design the model because otherwise your salary just isn't work. And when I put that to them, they don't really want to know because they think they'll get it somewhere else. And maybe they do. Good luck to them. So I then started to find designers all over the place, anywhere from, I don't know, from Romania, France, the Netherlands, South America. all over England. So I've got a network of about 8 designers and Amelia, she actually inspects all the designs and her job is to communicate with the designers. Then we send every dentist gets a viewer for everything and they have to approve it, which I find everything.
So every dentist approves their own designs before you go to mill.
Yeah.
Wow.
And then some of them. We worked with a lot of prosthodontists, a lot of people that are, they've done that. Yeah, they've done that high quality, the equivalent if they went to Michigan or Harvard to do that postgraduate course, where they actually become quite good because they do a lot of lab work. So they understand what they want. So those kind of guys will go back and forward maybe a couple of times with the design. So when they get it, you know exactly what they're getting.
You know, I think that's a huge benefit. I find, I'm a ceramist, I'm at the bench, We're sending a lot more photos of designs than we ever have. A lot of clinicians, even not at that level, they just want to see it. They want to be a part of it now.
Yeah. And I think that's going more that way. And it's a good direction to go in. Because we always, you know, in the old days, Amanda, we always talk about, you pay lip service to that communication work when really we never talked to anyone. We just did whatever we thought was right. Because you could never get hold of anyone. Yeah, with a patient, I'll call you back, I'll call you back. The date gets closer and closer and closer. So in the end, you've got to do something, right? You've got to make a decision. So now with WhatsApp, in fact, to the point where the phone hardly ever rings in the lab, because if they do need something collected, you know, sometimes it's something that needs collecting, not an impression or an impression. We've got a link that goes directly to the LMS and then straight to the driver's software to tell him he needs that. It's more, it's all integrated.
You don't jump on your scooter and go get it.
I have done in the past.
I was thinking of that, Elvis. You and I are on the same page today, buddy. That's awesome.
Yeah, and then there's lots of other things we've done. You remember like if a patient needs to come to the shade for a lab. So you have this conversation where the patient's standing in front of the desk, front office, in the dental office, with one phone in one head talking to us, then speaking to the patient, then trying to work out the appointment that they should come to the lab. So we just simplified that. We made a a calendar with a QR code, which we print on business cards. They can give it to the patient. They scan the QR code and they self-book their appointment and we only do shades on a Friday.
Oh my God, I love that.
Otherwise it just, it disrupts it.
I love that in our industry, we get so technical and digital with all the manufacturing, but it seems like all this other stuff you're doing just makes so much sense. Simplifying the files, the patient scheduling, the pickups. Who's calling on the phone anymore, for crying out loud?
Yeah, I mean, we're gonna do more of it. We're getting to, I've actually taken the premises across the road, which is off the, across the, I'm like on a small service Rd. like a back alley kind of place with like car systems and repair places. So a building became available, which it never does. So I just, I took a 10-year lease on it, thinking at some point I'm going to need to expand and now I need it. Because if I'd let it go and not taking it, as I'm expanding now, I would have had to move the whole operation.
Oh, I see, yeah.
So, and we're getting to that point now. I'm going to split the lab. So this building we're in now will be just milling and printing. And actually my office is going to become a printing room. And ceramics, admin, and bit of design we've got here going to move across the road into a new more spacious premises. And then the guys downstairs, instead of having to sit amongst 7 milling machines, we'll be able to move upstairs where it's a bit more, where it's a bit quieter.
So who's going to cross the street every day when it's winter and cold?
It's only 10 meters.
Oh.
So how are we going to work it is that once, so the case comes in for design, it comes in obviously at the admin end. So when it goes across the road, the design has been done. The components have been ordered, and then it goes for milling and printing, and the components will be delivered to the current building. So when it comes back across the road, it just needs ceramic.
That's pretty genius.
Hopefully, we'll see if it works. We've just ordered three Diamac machines and another Roland, which I'm waiting to get delivered.
Oh, wow.
How do you know as a business owner when it's time to get more machines? Like what level?
Well, it's actually, I got it from Jim Glidewell, reading his, you know, instant change and listening to his podcast. And his bigger thing is you've got to have redundancy in the business as you grow. You've got to be able to cope with your new customers because we all know you get one shot, right? One chance. So if we screw that first case up or it's not 100%, are they going to send more work? So I've always got redundancy. So we can always grow and expand. So when I ordered these machines, I realized, yeah, we need to be able to mill more. Now one poor Roland is working 20. I mean, in 18 months, we've had to change the spindle. That's how much we've done.
Wow.
We've gone through 2000 hours minute in a year and a half. So I've got another Roland with a changer coming. I've got getting a Diamac AS1 with powerful spindle to do titanium bars and apartments and another Roland, another Diamac, the smaller DS wet and dry for lithium disilicate and another just dry one just to do the high end, high def jobs, the full arches, but the Diamax got that 90 degree milling possibility, as well as the milling head swivel, so there isn't anywhere that it can't get into.
Wow, that's pretty fantastic.
So we're waiting for the Italians to give us a delivery date, which we're waiting for. They're on Italian time. That's not a big thing. Well, no, that's just the culture, and I was lucky I didn't order it in July, because then you wouldn't be seeing anything till Christmas. But no, it's a brilliant machine. It's the right machine for us because since we're doing a lot of full arch work, it's also from Jim Glidewell, Vertical Integration, everything you do, do it yourself. So we're not relying upon anyone else.
Well, I do love the fact that you've read his book because he's pretty awesome.
Yeah, it's quite a tremendous story how they've done that.
No doubt.
Zero debt, nothing. Any banks, anything. That's all. Cash pile.
Yeah.
Must be nice.
Yeah.
So talk about your full arch. I think we were discussing on LinkedIn photogrammetry. So when did you get into all that? Same time you went digital.
Not long after that. So I started, so from a referral, I picked up a dentist in the South Coast here. He was a very young guy and he's, we've actually named some of our products after him, George. And he said, you know, he was doing a lot of photogrammetry and he said to me, why didn't you get into this? And I, I couldn't, and he spent like hours in the evening speaking to me on the phone, getting me to understand the workflow. Because when you first learn about photogrammetry, like the questions are, how do you get the bike? How did you do this? How did you do that? Yeah, So then I bought my first, I use a topple scanner. I think you've got those in the States as well. There's ICAM, Tupple, Pick. There's a whole bunch of them, but I particularly like Tupple. It's also a UK-made product. And I started to do a bit of marketing on Instagram and slowly, slowly picking up more and more customers. So we do immediate load. So we provide same-day service pretty much anywhere in the country. You get a bridge by 5 PM with Rose and Screws.
Anywhere in the country.
Pretty much. Up to about Manchester.
How do you pull that off?
I mean, right. So if let's say, so two weeks before we ask them to send us a wax up with whatever's in, you know, whether there's a few wobbly standing teeth, whether there's a denture. So they send us all of that information. We do a wax up, you know, set the OBD, we get that right. Then on the day of surgery, they, let's say you're doing a full upper, they place a marker screw in the upper, a fiduciary marker, and we use an arch tracer, it's an American screw. You had those guys on a few months ago, make our tracer.
Yeah, the OptiSplint people.
Yes. I don't use OptiSplint, but I use the ArchTracer. And DESA just also introduced their own marker screws, tradiciary marker screws. So we put a marker screw in the upper, take an intraoral scan, capturing the marker screw.
Then- Do you go there for these cases?
The first case, whenever the first time they use the system, I will go there to do the training on the photogrammetry scanner.
Nice.
Then afterwards, now we just DHL them the box with everything in it, the scanner, the marker screws. Scan flags for the MUAs because we like them to press scan flags. Interesting.
You send them the camera.
Yep. In like a, you know, one of these pillar cases. It's like a. Yeah, You could throw it out of the, out of a 10 story window and it'd still be okay if it landed. Yeah, Where it lands. And we send them that the day before and then we pick it up the day after. And I've just developing a diary because now we've got more scanners, more topples. Scanners, it's very difficult also, like shapement point, but they have to call me up, is the scanner available? We have to look in our Outlook diary, so I'm having, it's nearly finished, a piece of a login for the dentist to log in, they see a calendar, the availability, they click, they want it, they ask them if they're having an immediate, is it a final? Is it outside of the M25, which is the London Green Road, if they want it at the same date, there's a fee for, that's how I do it, I use a direct courier bike, motorcycle. So if they're very far away, let's say they finish the surgery at 12, they're designed in 45 minutes, printed in about half an hour, finished, and then on a motorcycle to wherever it needs to go in the country.
Somebody jumps on a motorcycle.
Yeah, as a courier, yeah, we have a dedicated guy who just works for us doing that, he's got a big old bike, and he's not affected by traffic as much.
That's smart. You went back to your roots with that. Yeah, yeah.
So now this bit of this logging thing, we're launching it in two weeks time. So normally the problem for the front desk is booking us the surgery day for the patient and the sedationist, getting everyone to coordinate. So I thought, Look, let's make it easier for them and easier for us. So I had this bit of software web app developed. So the dentist makes an account, they can add all the different surgeries, the clinics they work in. And then it can go and say, okay, I'm going to do it on this date. And they can see the availability of the scanners, they can book it. And it then sends them a series of text messages and they have to fill out a form telling us what they're doing. When they receive it, they kind of do a login thing saying I've received it and everything's present. Then when they finished with it, they do the same thing and confirm that they've autoclaimed various items like the markers, the special photogrammetry scan flags and the desk scan flags. And then they press return and it will print out a label. Now, depending on where the scanner needs to go next, it will print out a label going to the next clinic and the algorithm works out, which is the closest scanner. And we have an API with DHL into the software.
So you don't even get the scanner back. It just goes to the next job.
Yeah, and we have, yeah, it's launching in two or three weeks. It's nearly done. And if we need to, we can hit a button and record the scanner. if it needs something. And also we tell them on the list, if you've lost something like, I don't know, something's gone up the aspiration, like a screw or something, or a scan flag, not a top of scan flag. Those are very expensive and you can't replace one. You need a set.
And.
So therefore they can book it and then they can see when the up and coming booking is in. And then we have our own dashboard here. We can see where all the scanners are. And as we add more scanners to the system, the algorithm just gives more and more availability. So we're building up heavy scaling. And that'll just be, I think, on our website.
Are there offices out there printing their own technology? Yes.
So we do a few different price points. We do the full service where we send you the scanner and we print it for you. Some people have their own printer, but they don't have the scanner. Some people have both, but we just provide a data service where we're just designing the stuff for you and the guys print it out.
How popular is that? Because it's pretty popular here in the States.
Yeah, I always think we're like five years behind you guys. Really? Yeah, that's why I'm going, that's why I like to go to Chicago.
You sound like you're five years ahead of us. I know I was.
Going to say, it doesn't sound like that to me.
I might be because I'm watching you guys. I think that's a lot of the things, but definitely in dentistry and my friends that are surgeons, they go to Vegas, they go to the austere integration meeting because they say they're just a bit further ahead.
Yeah.
Well, a bit, five years. Like, how many clinics in the States have printers? Quite a few.
Everybody.
Yeah, quite a few.
Oh, clinics like doctors.
Doctors.
A fair amount.
Yeah, probably, I don't know, 1%, 2%. Yeah, unless they're like someone who's done CEREC already, and then they're already more included. They're like, yeah.
But that's good, because that means business for you.
Yes, absolutely. So that's another thing we're introducing is we're doing, we're gonna do a processing course for So they can elect anyone in their office, a nurse or someone who works there who they want to send down to learn how to post-process after printing and finish. We're going to be running a course, especially for that on the weekend. where they'd be able to send a nurse or someone in their dental offices if they want to train to do that. Because the problem with printing in offices, especially if they're using those ceramic infiltrated materials, that post-processing them, because you can't just dump them in a vice of alcohol. switch on the ultrasonic because it interferes with the ceramic particles. People report to me, this white stuff came to the surface. And I'm like, yeah, that's a ceramic.
It pulled it out of it.
Yeah. So what I find with Rosen screws is, or desk screws, the flats, the desk superstructure screws or any screws, if the, especially with those materials, not the printable PMMA type, that you get a lot of residue and they don't actually keep it all the way through. So if you've got a little pimple on your conical screw channel or on your screw seat at the flat thing, that's creating a pressure point. And that will be the source of breakage somewhere in a week, two weeks, three weeks. So I think it's really important that we can, if they're gonna get a print on, like you need to have a really powerful egg on, they shouldn't be using the three-in-one thing on the dental chair. You gotta have this properly taken care of if you can do it yourself.
Yeah, and even though the offices will print it themselves and it breaks, they'll still blame you.
So now when we say, yeah, and that's another thing. It's more about, I think more than looking for materials that are X amount of megapascal strong, I think it more comes down to passivity, connector thickness, and screw seat integrity. Obviously, you've got to get your bikes right and your dynamics right as best you can in a full arch case. If those things are respected, then you won't get breakage, even if you're using PMMA. It's like printing, you know, it's user error. So those are the things that we're very strict on. If we're doing an FP1, yeah, it's going to be really thick in the back.
Yeah.
And you can tell the patient in the final that and out, but it's got to be like that so it doesn't break.
Yeah.
If they need a cantilever on the temporary, we're not going to put it there. We're going to go to the fives. We'll add that in the final when we've got the bar.
Yeah, and that's the biggest thing we run into, those patients complaining, I don't have any back teeth. You will, right? We'll get you there.
It's calm down. It just breaks off. But I think, yeah, it's something I'm really hot on is protocol is in the lab, all both of you guys know what it's like. So you've got this three-unit bridge you've milled out. It's got to go. It needs to be centered tonight and finished. It's got to go. It's got to get there on time. So the milling guys bring it upstairs when they're cutting it out in the morning and the evening, show me a chip in it at the margin. Now, the stress of the business and the pressure tells me, that'll be okay. But what I've learned over the years, and in order to operate the standard we're operating here, is that that's what it's going to be. We have to build another one. Because the road to hell is paved good enough.
Yeah, that's for sure.
That's what I talk about.
It's one of the toughest calls to make at the last minute. Can it, should it, will it?
And they hate me, because if I get 20 boxes here to check, 10 are going back, minor stuff, contact this, clean model. So what we send to our customers is a beautifully presented product in a nice box, clean models, well-fitting restoration that they're not gonna have to adjust. That's my big thing, no adjustments.
Yeah.
Are you still getting referrals? I'm assuming so.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's all the time. It's a constant thing. And now some dentists I work with, they run a course teaching dentists who want to move up a level into doing better restorations and really understanding what you're doing with emergence profile. And then I kind of got involved with them, making the models for the course and the hands-on. And now I'm getting more and more involved to the point now they're like, well, the next one, you need to give a talk, not just sit there as part of the discussion. Even though they really make the point of including me, and then someone else invited me to speak, and then another study club. I want to do more and more of that.
Are there a lot of study clubs in the London area?
There's loads of them, yeah. Dentists, yeah, there's dentists and technicians alike. There's a lot of study clubs. People are keen to learn.
Yeah, how do you get invited to them? Just working with your clients.
Yes. Yeah, so they'll say to me, like, I'm a member of this study club and I think the members would like you to speak. One I went to recently where I spoke was in like, we have these old gentlemen's clubs in the UK.
Yeah.
So.
I guess they don't mean the same as gentlemen's clubs.
No, So it's like, yeah. Did you come with happy endings? No. I don't think so. Not these kind of places. I mean, some of them are so backward that women can't even be members today in 2026. Wow. So they were for the sort of lords and ladies who lived in London, the money people they had, they had these clubs they went to after work and socialized. So their meeting is actually in one of these clubs. So I pick up the dentist on the way there and he says to me, I said to me, you're smart, you're in a suit. He said, yeah, you need a suit. You can't go to this place without a suit and die. You won't let you in. So I had to quickly run home and get one and they served like a silver service meal and then afterwards give a talk. So it was very, very nice.
You had to have a suit and tie.
Yeah, you can't walk in the building without one.
Yeah, I don't have to go in those places.
You have to wear a jacket and tie. He said they've loosened the own ties a little bit. So I had to quickly go home and get changed and like find, because I live in kind of two places at the moment because my partner, she lives obviously with her three children and I've got a boy. So when he's, so half my stuff, I still spend time in my apartment. Sure. And so I was nearer my flat when I picked my dentist up and I was like, I don't have anything there. So I went and I found some weird looking jackets and funny little shoes and a tie and a shirt. I looked really strange, but I didn't let it affect my talk. It didn't let it affect my self-image at that moment.
Yeah, just tell them you're doing it to get in the door.
Yeah, and that generates business, and we have a QR code I give people to scan, and then they enter their e-mail and name and phone number, and they get emailed all of my stuff, and then as they click on things on the e-mail, I get messages, so I know who's looking at stuff. Yeah, that's fantastic, but he's smart. Yeah, love it.
And most of these doctors, are they already digital or are you introducing them?
Most of them are. But I do, and it's like, there is a set of prosthodontists, people have done the prosthodontics course, they're on the specialist register and they're reaching, you know, the twilight years of their career and they're the biggest opponents to digital. And they, at every point they want to rubbish it and say, oh, it's not accurate, it's not this. So I just told them the same thing. Especially younger people in a different point of their career, I said, if you don't get into it, you're getting left behind. And it's not getting easier. Everyone thinks digital is easier. It's getting more and more complicated. Digital workflows. Incredibly complicated. Swapping out screws, bottoms, mixing different libraries together to get things done.
One of my favorite sayings is it fixes 3 problems and causes six more.
Right. But the workflow is for digital, like doing a full arch. So we do this immediate load service, right? So when you come to do the final, it's two appointments, not seven.
Oh, I know. That's so huge, I think. So all they're doing is- The work is already done.
Yeah, all they're doing in the second appointment, unless, so is taking a fresh photogrammetry scan after they've re-talked the MUAs and a new soft tissue scan for the new landscape of the top tissue as the healing process has happened and it's all healed up. I don't see how you can do an FP1 without doing an immediate load with photogrammetry. Oh, I don't think you can.
No.
If you don't get that soft tissue right, you're going to spend the rest of your career as a dentist trying to please this patient who doesn't have any soft tissue and he's got big black triangles that you can never fix.
Yeah, 100%.
Yeah. So I think for that, it's critical. And also any full arch work and even any, I think any, even a three unit bridge, I put MUAs on it, do photogrammetry if you can. Wow. Yeah, everything. Because in effect, what's a photogrammetry scanner? It's a digital verification jig.
Oh, totally.
So you know what the differences in the technology are from iOS? So iOS scanners stitch images together, one relative to the other, and hard surfaces, that works very well. But soft tissue, it finds it difficult. So you get cross arch distortion in those areas. And that's why you're seeing what I call the intraoral imposters, all these types of scan flags, flags that you use non-photogrammetry that have bends in them, you know, so there's more flat surfaces. So they have L-shaped scan flags. You must have seen them. Oh, sure. I had IO connect, all of those things. Yeah, But the issue I see with them is that they are still stitching images together. So it's going to be more accurate than your ordinary intraoral scan with MUA scan flags. it's going to be 40 to 50 microns in accuracy. But when you come to photogrammetry, you are measuring the implant positions relative to each other. It's taking a photo, highly accurate photograph of those positions. So you guaranteed precipity, six microns.
It's amazing. And you take out the human error of iOS scanning.
Yeah. And also you save loads of appointments. And also, none of it's reproducible in analog. So imagine you've gone, and we've all been there, you've gone through that process of where you've done the initial impression, then the jig, then the master model, then the bite block, because the bite block never fits the primary model, so you cannot make it on there, because it's not going to register the bite properly. Then you've done your density setup, and then you've been around with that a few times. Now, every time you change that density setup, you've lost that information, so you don't know what your journey has been. Then you cast a frame, if you remember that, weld each section, all of that business, apply ceramic to it, and on the last fire when you glaze it, it cracks. You know, all of that stuff we used to have to deal with. And now, and it's happened, did a photogrammetry final for someone, older guy, professor, cycles to work every day, got knocked off his bike, landed on his face, smashed the zirconia, and the bar was exposed. Went to the dentist, and he said, You know what? Everything's okay except the ceramic. So he said, what should we do? So I said, look, I'll mill out a new sleeve, we'll decorate it, we'll stain and glaze it. You get him in the morning early, take the bridge off, set, bike it, we've got our courier to bring it back to the lab, debog the old sleeve, reattach the new sleeve, back to the dentist, done.
Done.
You can't do that analog.
No, but we all had to go through that analog. to get to where we are today.
Absolutely. Absolutely. Everything's reproducible. Even if you look at like doing, remember we used to do those highly detailed white wax wax ups, and then you want to copy that into a build up. The skill involved in that to mirror that, all right, you can make all your matrixes. But now we do a digital wax up. Once that's approved, we just mill exactly the same in full contour.
I love it. Michael, what a story, man.
Oh, there's more. Now I'm just become so infused with dentistry. It's all I think about. The extent that my partner is like, she makes Instagram videos about it. You know, I'm sitting at home and she's like, you know, she's gone to bed and she's like, I'm sitting on the sofa. So she comes down and says, she's wondering what I'm looking at. She pulls my phone around and it's like a milling machine or something.
Yeah, I get it.
Dental ****.
Yeah, dental ****. That's why you. I love it.
Yeah.
Michael, thank you so much. We appreciate you coming on and I mean, just reaching out and saying, hey, let's talk. And I love what you're doing, man. ByteRite seems to be the right thing.
Yeah.
I saw you guys at the IDS, but you guys were busy. I wanted to talk to you then. Well, we were busy. I'm glad we've connected.
Me too. That was a great story. I really enjoyed it.
We love hearing from across the pond. And congratulations on all your success and the amazing turnaround that you did from after COVID to what you're doing now. Good stuff.
Thank you very much. Really thank you for inviting me on. It's a real pleasure and honor.
Absolutely. We appreciate it. And hopefully we'll see you at next IDF.
Yes. Will you guys be in Chicago?
Yes.
Yeah, are you?
Yeah, I'm coming to Chicago. I'm going to the CalLab meeting. I've just joined CalLab. So that'd be my first CalLab.
Oh my God, that's awesome. You are speaking to the chair of CalLab right now. Oh, you are.
Yes, I am. Yeah, it's our 100-year anniversary. We're the longest association in the US. I can't wait to meet you. That's fantastic.
Yeah, I have this image of these discussions where all the new stuff that no one knows about is... In the Cal Lab meetings, which it probably is.
Yes, it is super exciting.
So, I'm really looking forward to that, so I'll see you then.
Awesome, then we'll see you then, Michael. Have a good one, man.
Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you so much. Have a great day. Cheers.
You too.
Thank you. Bye-bye.
A huge thanks to Michael for reaching out to us and coming on our podcast. We absolutely love hearing from successful labs and technicians from all over the world. This is now the third person on our podcast singing the praises for greatlab.io since we've had them on. So I think they might be on to something. So congratulations, Michael, for all your hard-earned success. We cannot wait to meet you in just a few weeks at the CalLab meeting. and the Chicago meeting. So safe travels, my friend.
And if Barb seems a little raveled when you meet her, it's because she's on stage and having to run the show. That's right. Yay. All right, everybody, that's all we got for you. And of course, we're going to talk to you next week.
Have a good one. Bye.
Great eggs and hams, am I am I am. Oh, sorry. Okay, here we go. The views and opinions expressed on the Voices from the Bench podcast are those of the guest and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the host or Voices from the Bench LLC.