Barbara Warner's father passed away last Sunday from dementia Barbara: Twenty years ago, IVAClar introduced IPS EMAC and we all know how that has turned out. Hi Voices, of the Ventures, Barb Warner here and I would like to personally invite you to iaclar'ips Emacs panel discussion which is on Friday, February 22nd, starting at 3:00 at the LMT Lab Day in Chicago. I will be joined on stage with Jessica Barrell, Stephanie Goddard, Mike Roberts, Jed Archibald and Dr. Ken Malamn as we dive into the world of VMAX. After the panel discussion, Ivaclar will be hosting a happy hour to commemorate this 20 year milestone. So amazing. So. So please join us by registering@labdday.com IVACLAR and I cannot wait to see everybody in Chicago. Elvis: Welcome to Voices from the Bench, a dental laboratory podcast. Send us an email@info voicesfrohebench.com and follow us on Facebook and Instagram. Greetings and welcome to episode 360, Voices from the Bench. My name is Elvis. Barbara: My name is S. Barbara and we have a six. Barbara: I'm so excitedmm. Barbara: We have a six for nine episodes. Elvis: Yeah, we do. It's gonna be 360 whatever for at least a while. Barbara: Well, good for me. Elvis: Barb, how are you holding up? How you doing? Barbara: better than I should be, but not the greatest. I don't know if the whole podcast world, I know, the whole dental world knows that. My dad passed away last Sunday. So ye, super sad. Passed away with dementia. Dementia is a very sad, slow, horrible disease. But I was there pretty much every week, every day and spent as much time with him as I could so he's at ease. I was with him when he passed because the good Lord told me I needed to get there right then and there. And yeah, I talked him into heaven and cried over it and had the cross on his chest. But good man, Great for our industry. So many people affected to buy him with his company for so many years. I've just heard from I have Alar folks and Argan folks and just everybody that knew me and knew him and so I'm just super grateful. No regrets. He's A.B. Elvis: Yeah. Barbara: And thank you for letting me mention it. Elvis: Absolutely. It's hard, but I don't think a lot of people realize maybe listening to this podcast, how big your dad was in the industry. Barb: Yeah. Elvis: back in the heyday. Barbara: Yeah. Elvis: Didn't he participate in those times before the nadl and all of that and. Barbara: Yep. Elvis: And really get involved and fdla Cal. Ah yeahab. Back in the day. I'll say. I believe I met your father even before we did this podcast. Barbara: I bet you did. Elvis: Yeah. Just out and about and around and. Very kind man. I. I think the only regret is we never got him on the podcast. Barbara: Yeah, he probably wouldn't have known what to do with himself, but. Elvis: But I know he touched a lot of people. I know a lot of people have said some really nice things about your dad and how he helped them in the industry early on. Barbara: Oh, yeah. Elvis: I'm sorry for your loss and I'm just, I'm sorry for your family and thank you. Barbara: I know what you're gonna say next, but, his funeral is on Thursday and there's other event on Friday, so you can, you can say this if you'd like. Elvis: Yeah, I mean, it's. Maybe it's obvious at this point, but unfortunately, Barb, you're not going to be able to attend this year's Chicago festivities. Barbara: No. Elvis: That's got to be tough. I understand, I get it. But time spent with your friends and the family, it's important. Barbara: Yes, I know. I feel like I'm letting you down the podcast down. I have a clar down calab down. It is where I need to be. And I know you're gonna be amazing. It's going toa be hard to, not doubling up, because I know that it's two and a half full days of recordings and so I feel like I put a lot on you. But do proud, do me proud. Elvis: I will say this. You will be missed. I understand. Everybody understands. Don't feel bad. But I'm notn to lie. It's going to be hard and the energy is going to be different. And you know me, I'm probably going to start talking to someone and do a three hour conversation because you're not like, let's wrap this up, Elvis. There's a line. I'll probably talk to one person all day's funy. Barbara: Right? Just think of me that happens and give your little snap of a rubber band and say, snap out of it, Elvis. Elvis: I'm gonna have a post it note says what would Barb do? That'snna be wrap it up and find the next person. Barbara: Yep. Bingo. And good luck and God bless everybody. I hope Chicago is amazing. Thank you, Ivaar. Thank you. Every that's supportive of us and of me personally that's reached out to me. Thank you so much. Elvis: Yeah, you will be there in spirit for sure. Barbara: Ye. Exocad will be exhibiting at IDS this year in Cologne, Germany Elvis: But you know what? This also gives everyone a little bit more of a reason to go to IDS this year in Cologne, Germany to that cause if you need your helping of live Barb, we are re gonna be there. Barb will be there. Barbara: Yep. Elvis: She better be there. I can't record a foredign country without you. Barbara: I made my reservations. Exocad, help me. They were amazing. Elvis: Nice. Barbara: So they are done? Elvis: Yeah. Awesome. So March 25th to the 28th in the Exocad booth. So they were nice enough to give us a very small space and their very big booth during this massive show. Barbara: Damn. Elvis: I think I saw that like Lab day was like 300 vendors. And then I looked at IDS, it's like 3,000 vendors. And I was like, so we are excited once again to team up with Exocad and hang out in the coolest booth with one of the coolest design software companies. Mark: Doubt. Elvis: So I have the deets. I have the deets. If this means anything to anyone, we will be in Hall 1, Booth A040C041. Does that mean anything to anyone? I have no idea. Ryan Axelson: Wow. Elvis: Looks like it's near the west entrance. So if you see Barb and I wandering around, can you please direct US to booth A040C041? Because I have no idea where that is. Al right, but stay tuned, we're going to have some exciting news coming up of what's happening at IDS with Exocad and us. Barbara: Awesome. Dentscape has a new take on AI generated crown design Elvis: So this week we talked to a company new into the dental lab space that has a new take on AI generated crown design. So a while ago Ryan Axelson reached out to us and said he's working with a company called Dentscape and think our listeners would enjoy hearing about it. Barbara: Yep. Elvis: Love it or hate it, AI is definitely going to stay in the dental industry. But the really good thing about AI is that it's only going toa keep getting better and better the more we use it. Barbara: More information. Elvis: Yep. So Ryan brings with him the two co founders of Dentscape, Bill Chou and Dr. Sylvie Lu. Bill comes from the Meta and Amazon technical background and Dr. Lou comes with the dental knowledge and desire to see AI improved dentistry. Now Ryan comes from a 3D printing background and needs is going to bring all of this to the market. They talk about creating dent scape, some interesting insights into how and why AI works, what sets theirs apart from the others and what's next for this ever growing aspect of design. So join us as we chat with Ryan axelson, Bill Chou, Dr. Sylvie Liu and I guarantee you that none of this episode was AI generated. Are you a dental lab in need more talent to improve your bottom line Mark: Are you a dental lab in need of more talent to improve your bottom line and keep production on schedule? Are you a dental tech with great skills but feel you're being limited at your current lab? Well, the answer is here. Hi, I'm Mark from Win Wingo and this is precisely why WinW Wingo was created. The dental lab and dental tech community needed a place where labs and technicians can meet, talk about their needs, and connect in ways that foster a Win Win outcome as a tech. If you're ready to make a change, thinking about moving in the next year or just curious what's out there, sign up today. It's totally free. As a lab, you might be feeling the frustration of paying the big employment site so much and getting so few tech candidates. We understand they don't much care about our industry. WinWNGGO.com is simply the best place for lab techs and lab owners to actively engage in creating their ideal future. WinWindGo.com how dental techs Find paradise. Adite will be showcasing their cutting edge digital dentistry solutions at Lab day Chicago Elvis: This February, there are a lot of vendors to visit, at Lab day Chicago. And one you don't want to miss is Adite at Ah, Booth E26. They will be showcasing their exciting new products and cutting edge solutions in digital dentistry. Attendees can explore hands on demonstrations of Biomix stain and glaze techniques, something many guests have mentioned on here before. Along with some of their other innovative technologies, ADITE will also host engaging lectures and Grand Suite 2 that's in the East Tower, covering topics such as Ezir 3D Prour digital dentures and their AITE cloud design service. And even before you go, you can stay updated by following aiteort America on all social media platforms. And don't miss this opportunity to see how Adite is shaping the future of dental labs. Tell them you heard them on Voices from the Bench. And we appreciate your support of the podcast aite Voices from the Bench. Get them right two out of three The interview Lo. hey, look at me. Get them right two out of Take it. Bill Chou: Got it. Elvis: Everybody ready? Get rocking and rolling. Ryan Axelson: Sure. by the way, it's Sylvie. By the way, Sylvie. Leo. Elvis: Sylvie. Did I get that wrong? Well, okay, one out of three ain't bad. Bill and Sylvie welcome Ryan Axelson to the podcast So Bill and Sylvie, Sylvie, we are super excited today because we got an interesting group on here to talk about AI and our dental space. Now, Ryan, you reached out to me not too long ago and said, hey, we got this interesting concept. I have no idea what it is, which makes it more interesting to us because I want to learn all about it. So let's introduce everyone from Dentscape AI we have Ryan Axelson. Ryan Axelson: You got it. That's right. Elvis: Hey, what's m up, Ryan, how are you? Ryan Axelson: Hey, what's up? Good morning. Good morning. Hey, well, thanks for having me, on the show today. It's great to be here. I've, been listening to your podcast for a while. I actually got introduced when I was working at Acurtta. Barbara: Wow. Ryan Axelson: Yeah. So I, come from the 3D, printing space and I was really excited about after I joined den gate, I was starting to think about, hey, how can I introduce, the team to Elvis and Barb? And I thought about you guys and I thought, hey, maybe there's a chance for us to, introduce ourselves and be here on the podcast. I think it's a great story. Barbara: Well, beautiful. Totally welcome, you guys. Elvis: Love it. Barbara: Awesome. Elvis: Yeah. 3D printing, huh? We're gonna dive into that where you come m from, so. Also joining is Bill Chou and Sylvie Lu Also joining is Bill Chou in Selvie Lu. How are, are you both? Bill Chou: Hello. Hi, I'm Bill. I'm the co founder and CEO of Dencape. Barbara: Good to meet you. Ryan Axelson: Welcome. Sylvie Liu: Yeah, good to meet you. I'm, Sylvie, the CPO and coenter of Denscape. Denscape helps dental technician elevate their efficiency with AI So, Bill, you want to introduce yourself first? Bill Chou: Yeah, absolutely. So, a little bit about densscape. Denscape is an, AI agent for dental labs that adapts to your preferences and generate 100 crowns in just 10 minutes. So we help dental technician elevate their efficiency with AI by simplifying workflows and reducing workflows. Elvis: So how did you even get into this business? Were you a dental technician, Bill? Bill Chou: Actually, Sylvie is a dentist. So Saylvia wanted a bit. Elvis: Oh, a dentist. Sylvie Liu: Yeah. I'm the practicing dentist and also a lecturer in digital dentistry. So my role in the team is to bridge the gap between the AI technologies and also the clinical dentistry and also product designs. So I will make sure that everything we build at thescape is both very innovative but also user centric. Barbara: That's a big role. Elvis: Yeah. Why did you become a dentist? What's your background Why did you become a dentist? What's your background? How long have you been a dentist? Sylvie Liu: Yeah, actually I've been a dentist for, nine years now. Okay, I want to talk about the story how I, become an entrepreneurs from a dentist. I actually have a great time in dental sChouol and I really like the arty of the dentistry. I love tooth morphologies. I like to do the layering of the composite rains. And I in my students facease, I actually won a championship, in the clinical case competitions about like the interior teeth. Interior cases. But what really unexpected happened after I work in a dental clinic for three months is that I start to feel bored. Like dentist R.A. is all about the stabilities and caring about their patients and also the quality of the treatments. And I found there's no way for me to express my creativities. I like to draw and I like to do something new when I was a kid. So that made me thinking about is this what I want to do for the next 30 years? So this question just really make me stop and reflect and I start to find something new and that really can excite me. So I'm searching for that feelings for years. And later on In 2019 I made Bill. So at that time Bill was working in aws. So AWS is selling the cloud services and we talk about AI and how AI can work in the cloud. So what is share about? What is share to me really inspired me and I thought why not we bring AI into dentistry and what if we can use AI to elevate our working efficiency? That will be super amazing. So that is how we start landscape and that is the story about how I turn into the entrepreneurs. Pre Teeth Pro focuses on solving staff shortages in dental labs Barbara: So when you were thinking about that though, like what were you thinking when you say dentistry to the dentist's office, to the clinicians? Sylvie Liu: Yeah, actually in the beginnings we do think about clinicians like we actually start from the DSD app before we. Bill Chou: Actually this is our second part. We started a company like three years ago with AI Assisted Maldesign app called Pre Teeth Pro. So back then we actually do a lot of door to door like visiting to dental clinics to do DSD promotion, but later on Like Dr. Abazi, a really highly respected cosmetic dentist, share some insight with us saying that actually what patient and dentists see on digital smile design shouldn't just stay in 2D. It needs to be translated into 3D so that the consultation and final result can truly align. And that insight sparks something for us. So we started digging deeper, having more conversation with dental professionals. And that's when we uncovered a much bigger and more urgent problem, which is staff shortages in dental labs. We decided to, yeah, we decided to address this problem with our AI AC assistic crown design. And fortunately our experience with DSD gave us a solid foundation to build on especially for multi unit anterior crown generation. So I think now we work on more like the left side because it's where step shortages Happening. Right. And yeah. So we're trying to solve the problem in the lab world right now. Sylvie Liu: Yeah. Really focus on technician right now. And from a dentist perspective I also see some like frustration from both sides is that patients often don't understand why it takes one or two weeks to get crowned. And I know the dental technicians are already doing their best but it's just overwhnmed by the workload. So it's not about lacking any kind of skills or efforts. It's simply a like a mismatch between the volume of the work and also the number of the technicians. Barbara: Interesting. Elvis: We only do two weeks. Cause we can. Bill Chou: Yeah. Elvis: How do you even start developing AI for teeth? I mean you're not the only people in our industry in the space that do it. Bill Chou: Right. Elvis: It has to start somewhere. It has to start from designs that actual people have done. Elvis: Does, how does it work? How do you build this? Bill Chou: Right. So actually we have four co founders in total. So our team is like you can say when text meet dentistry. I came from aws Amazon Web Services. Barbara: Oh nice work. Bill Chou: O yeah yeah that's I know a little bit about like cloud based technologies and AI. I sell a lot of AI services to different industry back then and my tech co founders, the other two co founders they are AI researchers from meta Facebook. So together we saw an opportunity that we can transform the dental lab industry by tackling this kind of problem. So I think there are three key pillars to answer your question. Like how do we build this? Right. So there are three very important pillar. First is about the data. Right. So we partner with a large deno lab for high quality data set ensuring like we have the real world accuracy. So we train our model ourselves. We are not using someone else model. And the second is algorithm like what I shared. we have a perfect team to execute this idea. So like tech bro from Amazon and Facebook with a dentist. So we try to, we build our algorithm all our own and so far so good. And the third pillar is about computing power. So we are backed by Nvidia which gave us access to their computing resources. So all three together we have Denscape online. Barbara: You said you had a large laboratory that helped you. So they use the software and just give you guys constant feedback on the good or the bad. Bill Chou: That's one thing. And the other thing is we have a lot of pair data set which means they have original scan file and the design like Crown design files sto. So our model knows how to turn a row data into design data. So that's where our model can keep improving and trying to close the gap and eventually the model know okay I need to take care of this, take care of that. We actually have a special algorithm to make the data work. It's called mixture of experts. We have just like lots of experts taking a look at the model itself. We need to have theignment align we need to have the occlusal correct, something like that. So we have tons of special algorithm to handle that. Barbara: Yah. Elvis: Usually when you hear of AI I mean let's be honest Chat GP is popular right now. Making images that are just kind of crazy looking. How does that relate to something that's functional for a mouth? Do you know what I'm saying? I mean what exactly does an algorithm do to make a good looking crown? Is it all just math equations? Sylvie Liu: Yeah. Dencape uses supervised learning and generative AI to design dental crowns So talking more about the tech behind how we can generate a crown from an int internal skin. So there's actually two kinds of man AI technology we're using right now. So the one is the supervised learning and the second one is generative AI. I know there are some it's like a jargon words. Oh yeah, jargon words. Yeah. But I'm going to explain it in a very simple way so that you can you can remind like I'm. Elvis: A third grader please. Sylvie Liu: That's the best way. Yeah. So for the supervised learning so it will actually like an expert that can make judgments on those like internal skann. So for example like this kind of AI IFI give tons of photos about cats to this kind of AI and tell the AI to learn that this images is a cat. So it will extract some features like the shapes of the cats and also the whiskers so it will know that oh this is a cat. So after the training it can like constantly identify the cat in a new photo. So this kind is a supervised learning. So we use supervised learning to tell AI to recognize the tooth on the internal skin and also like so they can separate the teeth from the gums and detect the marginal lines on the abut tooth and ah also define identify the cusp and the groove on the tooubth. So it's like back in the sChouol where learning, learning the tooth morphologies. So this kind of AI the supervised learning is actually in AI models that can understand the internal skin. So this is step one and step two is that we use a generative AI so just like ChatGPTD, which is very popular recently. So this kind of generated AI is actually more like a creator. So it can like generate pictures or generate contents according to your prompts, according to your instructions. So our AI will use those inputs from the users settings. For example, we will tell the AI or prompts, the AI that we want the cement gap to be 0.08 millimeter, for examples. And they will also use the insight from the supervised learning to know the O. here is the abutment margins. And according to those instructions, this generative AI will design the crowns and then that can fit to the patients like occlusions, the customize ahetics. So what we really do in Dencape is that we combine these two kinds of AI together so that we can have the accuracy from the supervised learning, but we can also have the creativities and the customization from the generative AI so that the workflow will be streamlined, which I can totally see. Elvis: It makes a lot of sense. Barbara: Yeah. You were talking about how much you love the artistry and the creativity of dentistry. I could see where you would really be fascinated with this. Sylvie Liu: Yeah, we have to have more imaginations about the futures. Elvis: O Ryan, where do you fit into all this? Ryan Axelson: Yeah, I've just been quiet, just listening to the conversation. I think it's. It was fascinating. When I first met Bill and Sylvie, I was at a Smile con back in 2022. I think that was October 21st. Yeah, I was with Acurate at the time. The CEO Aush and I were traveling and I ended up meeting Bill and Sylvie and learning about their first product, Pre Teeth. And I thought that was cool. They were doing the virtual smile or digital smile design. I thought that was, you know, kind of a cool concept but you know, not, didn't. Didn't have any input for that. And then after. I have a kind of a long story. I I broke my leg when I was living in Taiwan. So I was living in Taiwan for. Elvis: Three years for acurta. Ryan Axelson: For acurtta? Yeah. And that's where ACURTA is based, right? That's where their headquarters is. And I was living there, working for Accurita for a little while. And I broke my leg cycling up in the hills, above Taipei. Elvis: O geeez. Ryan Axelson: Yeah, was. It was a slippery. It was a basically a rainy day. My bike slipped out from underneath me. I came down on my hip and basically broke the Top my femur O. And being a startup you really can't, there's not much you can do while you're in bed. And so I decided to kind of step back and let them do their thing. So I I had to step, step away from that company. So that was kind of my exit out of Acurtta. Ryan Axelson: That whole time was just under a year. That whole time I'd really learned dentistry and got excited about what, what dentistry was and 3D printing, that was super exciting. At the time, 2022, there was still a lot of a lot of things going on with dentistry and 3D printing and there's still a lot more left with 3D printing. So I was really excited about the industry and the technologyies being introduced but you know, I had to take a six month walk away from that industry. Elvis: You weren't walking thene. Barbara: You weren't walking? Ryan Axelson: Yeah. Rolling away from the industry. I have was in a wheelchair for, for three months. Wow. It's weird. The whole process is actually a four month of no weight on your leg. So I had four months of crutches. Elvis: And I don't think I could do that. Ryan Axelson: Oh, it was terrible. It was terrible. And I had a, I had a pin in my leg by the way. It was like this four inch pin in the, in my hip. Barbara: That was God's way of telling you to learn something new, right? Ryan Axelson: Ye. So yeah, it was tough. And then my kids wanted to go back to the states. they had already spent three years in Taiwan. They're like, you know what Dad, I don't want to go to high sChouol here in Taiwan. So we ended up, my wife and I, we moved the kids back to America and started our life back up in, in California, Northern California, where we are from. Sylvie from Denscape is creating a crown from scratch And I kept in contact with all my, all my friends and partners, back in Taiwan. And one day I reached out to Sylvie and just said, hey, how are things going House pre teeth. And she responded, you know what, we're looking for an advisor. We're entering a new, we're creating a new product. Would you be available to help us? I said, you know what, let's do it. So you know, I had the whole background of working in dentistry, a little bit of labs. I think acurtta had about 30% of our clients were focused on labs. So I kind of had a little bit, skin deep knowledge of labs. And as we started talking, you know, it just, it just propelled itself. It Became a really interesting story and I learned a lot about what they were doing with, with Dentscape. They were pivoting from pre teeth over to Denscape and creating a new product to create a crown from scratch. I thought that was just absolutely like bonkers. Like how does that even happen? Right? I knew that you could, you could talk and chat with an AI agent with chat GPT but to be able to create a crown from scratch, that's, that's bonkers. Right. So I thought that was just fascinating and I wanted to learn more and I was sold. Like as soon as we started talking I was sold. I was like this is amazing. We have to bring this the market. I will help you whatever you need. You know, my life is yours. So it it started and in July I basically turned full time and m we started working on our go to market strategy. Digital smile design is an AI tool used by dentists to create smile designs Elvis: Well you've mentioned what pre teeth a few times. What was that? Ryan Axelson: Yeah, that was their first product. That's their DSD product. That's the name of the dsd, the digital smile design. Elvis: So that's where it all started being able to design a smile that AI. Bill Chou: Yeah. So pret visit like app for dentists. They can take picture of their patient and generate smile design in just, just seconds. So we do smile analysis. We analyze a lot of things from the smile view photo and then we generate a like a smart design with like veneers or like tooth widening and lengthen crentthening. Sylvie Liu: Just better for the dentist to do the consultations in the same appointments. Barbara: I can see that. Bill Chou: So that's yeah that's actually, that's actually serious pain point back back then doing a lot of practice. Barbara: Is that still being used? Bill Chou: Yeah. So we have more than 8,000 users around the world right now. So it's still available. You can just search it on app store. Elvis: So you just take a picture of a smiling patient and what does it do? It just superimposes what good looking teeth would look like. Sylvie Liu: So it will actually just I build it. It will actually do the smell analysis first. So it will like recognize the paient's eyes and then the lip borders and also the jaw and where all the teeth is. So it's not like a photo editing tools. So it's actually generated DSD according to this patient's conditions like where the teeth is, how long should the be? for example like the inside a should be aligned with the lower L border to create a better SM small curve Et cetera. Barbara: So by using that, so if the patient says yeah, I love that, then the dentist can take a picture of that and send it to the lab. And the lab can do a wax up off of that. Bill Chou: Exactly. And so it used to be like a technician have to look at a photo and try to build based on that. But the problem was some users told us they want to convert, use AI to convert those 2D simulation and like trment plane into 3D. And so we actually we are building 3D part right now and eventually we will bridge them together. Right. So we have 2D already now we are building on 3D. Eventually it will be like all streamlined. So from end to end it's more like the whole workflow. We can help with the dental professional to provide a better experience for a patient. Sylvie Liu: Yeah, we know that creating the WasApp from the DSD images is also a pinpoint for those technicians. Barbara: Yeah. Elvis: What would they have to do now like take those images and reproduce it and like three shape or exocad. Bill Chou: So right now yeah they can use the tool they use to design it for their things. But actually they can also use. Yeah we do provide the tool for like crown design. So like generating posterior anterior multi unit, single unit, both. So yeah then yeah so eventually we can provide a seamless experience for them. So because we know it's all about workflow, right now's not only it's not only the innovation. So it has to be with simplicity and user friendliness if we really want to build a great product. So we look at some companies like Apple for inspiration. So yeah, just think about iPhone. It's very powerful but also very intuitive. So the moment when we pick it up we know exactly how to use it. And that's the experience we want to build with. Barbara: That's pretty cool. I like it. And you know I can see as a technician having the dentist forward me that photo before ever designing the case or making the temps or making the digital wax up. How helpful that could actually be for us. Ryan Axelson: Yeah, exactlyah. Are you successfully doing AI dentures? Yeah, we have some progress Sylvie Liu: So the time when we want to really focus on dental technicians. So what we prioritize in our roadmap is crown bridge and dentures because according to tons of user interviews to those lab they say that like crown bridge is the bread and butter in their products and also the denture is the most time consuming one but like provide slim profit margins for them. So we really want to help those technicians to elevate their efficiency so we might focus on crowns, bridge and dentures. Like this year, or next year I would agree. Barbara: Especially dentures. There's not a lot of skill level with the dentures at all right now, I don't think because it's so new. Elvis: Are you successfully doing AI dentures? Bill Chou: we have some progress, but we haven't released anything to the public yet. Elvis: So I don't think anybody has. That's some pretty involved, I got super excited there for a second. Ryan Axelson: Yeah, we're excited about that. We're actually, we're on the back end. We are working on that. I think that is the next big mountain to climb is AI produced dentures. Elvis: Yeah. Bill Chou: So you know, like Elvis and Barb, you to me like, not from dentistry background. When I jump to work on this, I realized dentistry is really, it's very diverse. There are so many small segments under the dentistry umbrella. Right. So many. Like we have crown brid and you can even have different type of like very small segment. And I feel like it's very interesting. But also it makes, it makes it harder to build a product because everything, every type of like restoration design, you need, you need to alter your algorithm based on that. Different workflow, like even different business model. And I mean, yeah, that's very interesting for us. But yeah, I'm glad that we can have a team to work on that because we have Syilvy on the team. So when we have some dental question, I always go, actually the whole team always like go find Gott. Elvis: Ask the dentist. Sylvie Liu: Yeah, go ask me. Other than the like, the really innovative algorithms, what I really care about is the simplicities of the, the software. Because like the cast sow offer we have right now mostly is really complicated. It takes like courses or training sessions so that you can master that. But let's just step back and think that most of the tools we use outside of dentistry, is often very. Don't need that kind of learning curve. Is very intuitive. And it's all become it's all because of the design of the products or the uiux. So that is our philosophy in landscape. So we don't want to just bring the AI into the labs. What really want to do is bring the AI that is easy to use for those technicians, whether you are a, senior, technicians or you are new to the caste systems that we really want to integrate into your workflow and to just to amplify your capacity. Elvis: So something I've always found interesting with AI is a good tooth Design is not consistent with everybody. Right. You can have 14 different people make a tooth and all 14 will look slightly different. Sylvie Liu: Exactly. Elvis: How do you dial in what the AI should produce? Bill Chou: Yeah, actually that's something set us apart from those companies who to do AI. So we have. Our idea was personalized AI. Just like you said. There are several ways to design a correct, I would say, ah, correct design. But everyone have different philosophy when it comes to like athetics. You, everyone's actually, they don't think beautiful things look all the same. So we do have a customization onboarding process. And during that onboarding process we will provide some Chouices, so they can Chouose the design they like. And through those questions, we learn how this user think about what's their philosophy. So that's the onboarding process. And along the way when they use more with the AI we actually provide, it's a web based cat system. So when they can do some adjustment on that. So after they adjust the design, we actually learn from the data as well. So they use more, we learn what their ideal design looks like and eventually this AI agent will design more like the technician. Barbara: So you're extrapolating from my brain what I'm thinking about aesthetics and then it's tweaking it as it goes off of what I'm feeding it after the original conversation of my view of what I'm looking for. That's pretty amazing, you guys. Bill Chou: Yeah, that's actually just like think about Tesla, right? So when you drive a car, you actually teach the car how do you drive. So when you use more, the car can help you drive just like you. And when the AI really comes to that point, you can focus on something you want to focus on, like do more complicated cases. Barbara: So it's not only like setting it up the way that you guys set it up, it's setting it up the way the user is visualizing it to be set up. I don't think anybody else is doing that. Elvis: When you get the AI design, you provide a website that the user can tweak it in and that's where it learns it. Or do we pull it into our three shapes and exocad. Bill Chou: You don't have to do anything on just the AI will lear it themselves. Ryan Axelson: Yeah. Sylvie Liu: So after the AI generated crown we will provide our website already have some adjustment tools so you can just add more or remove some of the mees on our web based tool so that you don't have to export that and then input again into your cast software. You can do, the adjustment on that. That will be easier for the users. Elvis: And that's how you learn. Right. You take what adjustments we do on your website to find out what the next AI should be more like. Bill Chou: Yeah, so that's for this, specific user. So we are not using a like, model that works for everyone. So everyone won't have exactly the same design, after a while. Ryan Axelson: Right. Bill Chou: Because that doesn't make sense. Like what, Elvis say, like they don't have the unified answer to this. Sylvie Liu: Technicians don't like the cookie cutter. They don't like cookie cutter tooth for every patient. Elvis: Yeah, no, definitely not. Right now we have more than a dozen labs using our AI Ryan, how do you bring this to market? Ryan Axelson: Right, so right now we have more than a dozen labs using us and testing us. We're at the very beginning stages. So really all size labs? Yeah, actually we do have all size labs. We have, there's kind of three main use cases out there. There's the smaller labs, the, you know, the one to, one to ten employee size labs that are doing more artistic, more individual relationship with the dentist. And they can use us for customized AI generation, customized crown generation using our AI. And then you have the midsize labs where they need to have higher volumes and balance their speed. And they still have their bread and butter workflows. Crown splint and bridge. Ryan Axelson: And it's really important to have speed, but they also need their text to really focus on full arch restoration. So it's. Yeah, you know, I went into a lot of midsized labs and there's, you look at the back wall with the cases and most of those cases that are sitting there for a couple hours, guess what? Those are typically crowns. Why? It's because they want their text focused on four arches. They got to get out those four arches. And you know, they're doing 10, 15, 20 full arches, a week. And that takes a lot of time. And sometimes the bread and butter, the, the crown doesn't get a lot of love. Barbara: Yeah. Ryan Axelson: So what we're able to do is kind of offload that bread and butter business, allow of that, basically streamline that business so you don't have to spend five, 10 minutes on a crown. Maybe you spend two minutes with us, get a crown out the door, it's done. You, you QA it as a human. You QA it, make sure it looks good, and then send it to your, milling, send it to milling or send it to print, whatever you plan to do. And then finally, with large labs, it's really all about scale and automation. In other words, they're doing things called blind milling, which is, you know, no. No touch, no human touch at all. Barbara: Yeah. Ryan Axelson: And so that's where we're working on. We're not quite there, but we're really building up that workflow and making sure once we have the volumes, I think we'll be able to scale right into that very quickly. We're helping those labs right now at the testing phase to do blind milling because we're able to create that crown, create a workflow where it's drag and drop. And eventually we're going to have an inbox listener or work with partners to be able to funnel in cases from the management software all the way through to cam. And CAD will just be, like, it'll just be a click. It'll just be done. Barbara: But, like, just like you said, we're fully loading it. We're letting you know how tight we want the contacts, how thick we want the margins. Do we want that? The crowns completely out of occlusion and everything you're loading into it. So we kind of already preigned what we're looking for, so I can see where. And then you have a seat and finisher giving you feedback. Okay, so no, that didn't work. We want tighter contacts or we want loser contacts. And then you revise it as you go, and then you finally get to the sweet spot and you're like, all right, we're ready. I could see that. Ryan Axelson: Yep, yep. That's what we're working on. We have the. We have an onboarding process where you go through kind of a bunch of check marks and you figure out what, what kind of, you know, spacing gaps, all that, what are you interested in? You know, do you like rounded corners? Do you like straight corners, et cetera, square corners? That's really where we are going through that onboarding process. And then over time, it gets better and better. Elvis: How does a lab get you that information? I mean, do we have to download all of our iOS scans? And how does that process work? Ryan Axelson: Well, it's a slow startup. All'let Sylvia and Bill kind of go to the next stage. But really what it is is you start using us and letting us know how our crowns are doing. Once you see the results, our crowns will get better and better for you. So that'it's kind of like a hockey stick scale. So as you give us more feedback, our software gets better. Betterah. Bill Chou: Yeah, right. So actually we don't need dongle or anything. We just go to our website and you will find a contact us form. You can leave information there. So basically we are offering one month unlimited usage right now. So if you want really want to let AI to be in your workflow and try to see how it can do for you guys so you can use it. And we don't charge for the first month. That's the special offer we are providing right now. Elvis: Does it t matter if we do 20 crowns or 200 crowns or 2000 crowns? Bill Chou: Yeah, let's try ouri actually our AI can do 110 minutes. So w. Yeah, as long as you have the business that's. And you are the perfect customer we are looking for. Bill: AI will predict the margins and it like the user can adjust them Barbara: So m. Yeah, because I could see the more that we use it, the more and better your system gets faster. Bill Chou: That's right, right. And the way we can catch up with your needs faster and that's what we want. So I feel like it's a women's situation right now. So as a startup we have to grow fast. And if you have the knees, please go find us. And we will also be in IDS and Chicago. Elvis: Nice. Again I want to ask how a lab gets you that information. I mean we have ISOs all over the place. Bill Chou: Oh, oh, got it, got it. Elvis: Yeah. How do we get it to. Ryan Axelson: Yeah, it's just an upload process. So all you do is upload the upper and upload the lower. And then what happens is our system figures that out, figures out what the indication is going to be and also figures out the margin detection path of insertion. The occlusion is decided with our computer and then from there it comes back with a result. Elvis: We have to individually every case kind of go to a website and upload it. There's not a one click everything that we have in our system to send over. Ryan Axelson: Well we actually have a new feature that we're releasing that is a drag and drop. So you can drag up to one hundred files all you folder fil. Elvis: Oh, there you. There is. Ryan Axelson: Yeah. Jag and drop. Sylvie Liu: And if you download the cases that the dentist or the clinic sent to you, for example, iterero folders and you just download the folder and drag the entire folder into our systems and ra AI can read the prescription inside. So it will extract, yeah, extract the two numbers, extract the trumment type and also the material inside and let you check if it is correct or not. And then you can directlyal to the next. Barbara: Does it automatically create a question like if it feels like it doesn't have what it needs to move on? Sylvie Liu: Yeah, exactly. We also know that is something that technicians have to make a call to the clinic as soon as possible. So we will filter out those with some missing information or with like short prescription notes so that the user will know which clic to call, as soon as possible. Yeah. Elvis: A lot of things we hear about with AI is margin marking. I've talked to a lot of labs that use AI and they always say they have to mark their own margins. Are you asking for labs to still mark the margins? Sylvie Liu: Our AI will predict the margins and it like the proposals so that it will actually we trnd our AI to recognize the margins by using the supervised learning I mentioned earlier. And then it will predict the margins whether it is on the interestal scans or is on the section die models. And it will like the user to see if the margin is correct or not. So the user even they see the current generation results afterwards, it still can adjust the margins according to the AI, predictions. So it will give the user, the technicians, the total control over the quality of the crown, especially the margins. Barbara: So if you want to fix it or add a little here or reduce a little there, that's an easy fix. Sylvie Liu: Exactly. Elvis: And Ryan, with the labs you're working with, are you see, I mean that those margins are hit pretty much pretty good most of the time. Ryan Axelson: Yeah. I think we're still getting more data on that. So far, the margin hasn't been the issue. The, the main issue that we're seeing, is whether or not the tech actually accepts the tooth, the margin. So far we haven't had any issues around that. So we're actually, we're kind of moving past that issue. The next issue is the morphology. I think what's really interesting with AI is that you can't create a perfect tooth. Right. You have to create such a thing. And also there is no such thing as a perfect. Right. But it has to. The imperfections actually create the character. Yeah, our AI is learning that. And it's getting better and better. Having smooth teeth make it look too fake. So, yeah, adding those textures, those ridges, those fossa, that is really what adds character and adds that artistry to where Denscape is going. And the specialized agents that we're creating, Sylvia and Bill mentioned a mixture of experts before. what that means is that each agent, we've actually separated all of them, each agent focus on a certain item of the tooth creation. You also have. We, can create agents for morphology, create agents for texture, creates agents for margins, etc. So each one is focused on making sure that it's 100% accurate. Barbara: So what about function? Is there, is there something in there that will help you check excursions and function and that sort of thing? Ryan Axelson: what do you mean by that? Barbara: Like if you have an upper and lower and how the, how the jaw actually works together, is there a way to manipulate it where you can check and make sure like it's not high if you're, if you're moving this way or that way with your jaw? Ryan Axelson: Oh, got it. Yeah. Yeah. We do have, the ability to check on, occlusion swt. we're working on a couple other items that I, maybe, maybe Sylvie can tell you a little bit more about our articulator. Sylvie Liu: Yeah. For the like, fixed prosthesis, like crown bridge, Right now we mainly focus on the central occlusions so that AI will, listen to your instructions before you send it to generations. So it will your like the value you input. For the occlusive distance, it will act as a prompt to the AI. So it will generate crowns according to the occlusion, occlusal distance. You type it in. Yeah. We also know that the virtual articulator, the lower jaws movement is also very important. So that's also in our roadmap so that you don't have to adjust a lot after you mill the crown. And the dentist will be happy. The technician will be happy as well. Yeah. Barbara: Awesome. That's a great feature. And that's one that I think, you know, if you look at something aesthetically, you know, but then you also have to have the fit and the function part of it. So it it's something you can't forget about. You talk a lot about crowns. What else is AI designing Elvis: You talk a lot about crowns. What else is AI designing? I mean, you mentioned dentures, crownons. What else? Ryan Axelson: splints. We have splints, completed. We have upper splint. We'll be adding more, more features on the splint later. And bridges will be coming pretty soon. I think February will have, bridges available. So we're excited about that. Elvis: That's a whole new ponic design. Yeah, the whole poics area to get into. Ryan Axelson: I know, right, right. That's an important part of our next stage is be able to kind of accommodate that design. Sylvie Liu: Like one technician told us that the price about a bridge, like the three unit, bridge is equal to three crowns. But Actually workload is more than three crowns. You have to take care about the conductors and also the pontic. so it's become more complicated. So I think the bridge is really where AI can fit in and help the TISH technicians to enhance their workforce. Elvis: Yeah, if you can knock out bridges that would save a lot of time. Barbara: So if you get the system, is it like all inclusive or is there a part where you only do anteriors or you do posteriors and anteriors and then there's this extra part that you need to get to do the splints and then furthermore the dentures. How does the, the system come? Ryan Axelson: pay as you go. Bill Chou: Yeah, it's all in one. Ryan Axelson: Yeah, yeah, as you go. Bill Chou: All in one platform. Ryan Axelson: It's all in one. It's, it's pay as you go. You basically buy credits with us. So and each credit is translated into a application. So a one crown is one credit and for splints it's four credits. Barbara: Well that's an interesting concept. How'd you guys come up with that? Ryan Axelson: I think it's just a business model that we. It's one of the, one of the ways that a lot of tech companies are moving in is really around usage based pricing. Ryan Axelson: So you want to align your cost base with your clients, and the way they pay. Right. If you misalign those things, you have either you're out of touch with the reality of the market or you're negative. You're basically using more usage and then clients are getting too good of a deal. Barbara: Right. Ryan Axelson: So the way you matchx, that is the major portion of how we charge or basically a major portion of our cost. Our variable cost is actually AWS usage. Right. Those Nvidia chips are not, not cheap and they use a lot of power and AWS charges us every time you create a crown. Ryan Axelson: So the, the way we decide, does. Elvis: It really do it like that? Interesting. Ryan Axelson: Yeah, they charge us like 0.0 whatever cents per per usage of their computers. So it's time, it's time usage. And so the more we use, the more they charge us. So what we wanted to do is align that to customers so it's equal so everybody is getting the best deal possible. And then we're just basically taking that gap on that. That's how a company works. from a business perspective we are aligning that so we're more efficient and giving the best deal for the customer. Barbara: Yeah. Ryan Axelson: And also allowing us to you know, basically Build the best product that we're also looking at efficiency. Right. You want to look at code. How much code is being used and how much that code is forcing a computer to use that energy. It all comes back to energy. Elvis: But it also allows smaller labs to still use the service and not be priced out. Ryan Axelson: Exactly. So you don't have to pay for a dongle. There's no upfront fee, there's no annual fee. It's basically you use 10 crowns, you pay for 10 crowns, you use 100 crowns, you pay for 100 crowns. That's it. Barbara: I love it. Elvis: It's great. And it all takes 10 minutes to get it back. Barbara: 100 crowns, 10 minutes. That's pretty awesome. Ryan Axelson: Under crowns, 10 minutes. Yep. Yeah, it's pretty cool. You mentioned Chicago. Do you have a booth number for Chicago Elvis: You mentioned Chicago. Do you just have a booth? You have anyone speaking? What's, what's that looking like for you in Chicago? Ryan Axelson: Yeah, so we, we have some interesting things coming up. We are going to be at Chicago. We are also going to be at ids but as far as Chicago'looking here for the booth number and I don't see it. Guys, do you have a booth number for Chicago? Bill Chou: For Chicago? They haven't announced yet. So that's why we don't have the booth number. I think they were notify plus if. Elvis: You give a number noe nobody knows where it is. It's so big. Ryan Axelson: So big. Bill Chou: Yeah, yeaheah. They haven't given it to us. Maybe next week. I guess so. Sylvie Liu: Yeah, just find someone that is where wearing the landscape T shirt and we. Elvis: There you go. Sylvie Liu: Happy to talk to you. Ryan Axelson: Exactly. Barbara: Are you going to have like a system set up so that we can sit down and check it out? Bill Chou: Yeah, exactly. We will have a demo there and you can experience the whole workflow. You'amazed by how simple it is. And really the UI we try to build like Apple style. Very beautiful. Sylvie Liu: Intuitive. Bill Chou: Intuitive as well. Elvis: How about this? If I bring a scan to Chicago, could you AI design it for me? Wall I'm in Chicago and look at it. Ryan Axelson: We would love that abutely. Elvis: I think that would be cool. Bill Chou: Yeah, let's do it. Elvis: Yeah. I'll bring a flash drive with a scan that I got and we'll see how it is. Ryan Axelson: Yeah. Actually if anybody out there is wanting to take a look at our AI if you have any single crown, multi unit crowns, anteriors, posteriors, splints, bring your file to us. Bring your file, your STL file. We'll take that and then we will Upload it into our system and produce you a crown output STL file out of that. We can also accept other file types. Bill, Sylvie, one of those file types. Sylvie Liu: Ply and obj. Elvis: What about scans directly from a like prime scan. Don't they do weird formats with dent supply? Bill Chou: Yeah, I think we are trying to fix that. Elvis: Yeah. Bill Chou: But for now like poi the general file type. Sylvie Liu: Looking forward forward to like having more kind of file type inputs so that we can fit more to the workflow. It'like workflow is really important in the dento lab because everybody is so busy and we cannot stop by any kind of troubles or errors in the workflow. Elvis: And you mentioned ids we're going toa be there too for the first time. Super excited. Sylvie Liu: Oh no. Elvis: Yeah. Denscape will be exhibiting at IDS in 2025 So any big announcements at IDS for you all? Ryan Axelson: I think what's exciting about IDS is that it's so gigantic. It's. Elvis: Yeah, tell me about it. Barbara: I know. Ryan Axelson: Yep, we're, we're excited. I think the big announcements will be very similar to the announcements that Chicago. we're releasing Bridge. We'll be releasing more features on on splints M. Our crown design will get even better. So what's really exciting is that I think we're going to have some special announcements coming up. So some of our partnerships will be re releasing at ID in Chicago. So stay tuned for those. There's going to be some very big names in your industry that you're going to recognize that're going to be partnered with us. People's names that some, some people may recognize and also some, some companies that are kind of tried andrude in your industry. So we're excited to release those names once Chicago and IDS comes around. Barbara: I know. Isn't that tough? Yeah, you got to wait and you got to wait and then finally it gets here and you get to tell everybody. Ryan Axelson: Yep. So we'll be at Hall 4.1 and Booth B17 at IDS in 2025. And if you have the if you're. Sylvie Liu: Tired in IDS just come to our booth and take a rest and have a cocktail. Barbara: I've heard anyways at id. Sylvie Liu: Yeah. Yeah. Also snacks. Barbara: Yeah. Elvis: Is this your first time doing a dental show for Denscape? Bill Chou: So actually last time we were at Ideas but with pre teeth Prada. So first time for D. Yes. Ryan Axelson: Yeah, this is our first time for was pretty. Yeah 3D design. Barbara: Well congratulations you guys. Elvis: Looking forward to y. Ryan Axelson: Awesome. Elvis: this all sounds really fascinating. I can't wait to see. The more you do, the better it gets. It's gonna be insane once we get all this stuff, worked out. I mean, it's just, it can only get better, right? Ryan Axelson: Yeah, ablute. Bill Chou: Exactly. Ryan Axelson: And I think, I think it really comes back to one of our main points of Denscape is that we are actually really focused on labs and we want to solve labs problems. And also not just lab problems, but also tech problems. Right. Tech. Techs are, it's kind of the perfect storm right now for especially dentures. Ryan Ruxer: Traditional denturesists are retiring due to automation and that's why one area that we want to focus on is we've, we've heard this story over and over again. There's, you have on one side of the story is, ah, a bunch of traditional denturesists are retiring and their knowledge is going away. And then, you know, any, any of those digital denture guys, those folks have, you know, come up on board, but they're also starting to retire. Barbara: Exactly. Ryan Axelson: Then you have this increase in, in demand for digital in general. So there's more scanners. What is it about a 70% penetration rate of scanners now in dentistry? So you have, you have this workflow that is now faster and faster and you have patients saying, hey, you know what, you know, such and such dentist is providing me a crown in 48 hours or you know, so many hours back. Why aren't you doing this? So you have more pressure on the dentist to speed up that process. Saying, hey, where's my turnaround? Why is my turnaround? Why, why can't I get a more and faster and cheaper? Then you have the Glidew wells of the industry who's already moved to automation. Right? They moved to automation. Actually, when I visited Glidewell in 2022 and I got to see the robots, it was amazing. Oh yeah, it was absolutely amazing. They have these robots and each robot goes and grabs a spindle, that one little piece of zirconia crown or Brux Brous. Was it Brus crown. I forgot the name of their crown. But they. Theyux Ruxer. Yeah. And they go in and mil it right there. It takes a couple minutes. It drops into a conveyor belt, goes to a QA process and then they ship it out. It's done. It's like bam, bam, bam. So you have dentists moving to the big, big labs. And so the, the little labs, they're still focused on that kind of traditional process that still works well, but the middle labs are getting pushed out And I think we can provide a lot of value to the middle labs, especially during this perfect storm. We can give them more tools, more arrows in their quiver to fight back and provide a bigger user base and provide better customer service to their dentists. Elvis: Love it. Sylvie Liu: Exactly. And also I want to share something that was really inspired by Jensen Huang. The CEO of Nvidia is just. He recently spoke about like AI agents. So he said that the future AI agent will join every industry and work with you. So it's like an AI coworkers like in the dentistry, the AI designer, like Denscape not only will, learn your, design preference, but it will work with you. So we can imagine that the AI will do the crowns bridge denture designs and the other human technicians can really be, freeing up and they can focus on something really is advanced like veneers, implants and also olng force etera. So it's not about replacing any human technicians, but it's about like amplifying the capabilities. So that is our visions to help the lab to amplify the productivity. Elvis: I love it. Thank you so much everybody. This is some fascinating stuff. Super excited to see what the future holds. Every if you want to get into AI, check them out. I think it's worth it. Ryan, Bill Silva and bring your hands to Chicago. Ryan Axelson: Yes, yes. Barbara: That's great. They can totally see it work right there. Elvis: Real on your cases. Plus you can tell your people at the lab you were working that weekend. Barbara: Yeah, exactly. Well, thank you all very much. That was super. Elvis: Thank you so much. And we'll see you in Chicago. Ryan Axelson: Excellent. Bill Chou: Forward there. Elvis: Thank you. Bill Chou: Bye bye. Sylvie Liu: Bye. Dentscape AI is co founded by a dentist. So one would hope that quality is always at top of priorities Barbara: A, big thanks to Ryan, Bill and Dr. Lu for coming on our podcast and talking about Tescape, which is a really cool, great company. I certainly have a little more understanding about this AI everybody's talking about now. And to think about all that goes into the creation of one design is crazy. Most of the time it's done in literally seconds. You got toa love a company that is also co founded by a dentist. So one would hope that quality is always at the top of priorities. And from the sounds of the doctor, it is if you want to see it work in person. Totally great idea you had, Elvis. The booth at lab day is N3 in the west hall. So seriously, we challenge you show up with a scan or two, let them show you right then and there how their system works. That really was a great idea. If you're not going to Chicago, head over to Dentscape AI and get a month. A month for free. What do you have to lose? Month for free? I try it. Go for it. Elvis: Seriously, you know it. Barbara: Thank you guys. Thank you everybody. Elvis: Alrigh everybody, this is a week that most of us, and sadly not Barbber heading off to Chicago. Safe travels. I will see everybody there. But of course we will also talk to you next week. Barbara: Yes. And have fun in the big bar. Have fun freezing your offs. Have fun being everybody that you know and love. Have fun in the lectures. Enjoy Ivalar's party and their celebration of emacs. And just have a good time for me and think about me and send me love. Elvis: We'll pour one out for you, Barb. Barbara: All right, that too. I didn't even that a good ch. Bye. Elvis: If you don't have pets to wake you up, that just means you're lucky. The views and opinions expressed on the Voices from the Bench podcast are those of the guest and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the host or Voices from the Bench llc.