02:11.50 Alex you know When I was coming up wanting to be some kind of writer, or reporter, and maybe work in sports, I wouldn't say that I knew anything. you know When I was watching Pirates games growing up, I'm from Pittsburgh or or what have you, it never occurred to me that there was someone who had to be compiling all those stats that the announcers were reading off on the broadcast that just seemed like they must have been off the top of your head. 02:39.55 Alex you know If someone was saying that Jason Kendall was on a 14-game hitting streak, which was the longest hitting streak by a Pirates catcher in two years, it's not like the play-by-play announcer just came up with that off the top of his head. 02:52.28 SIDcast Knew that, yeah. 02:54.01 Alex And you know i think once I got to college and started doing a little bit of beat reporting on the University of Maryland's athletic teams, that was my alma mater. I started to realize that SIDs are doing a lot of work, and it's hard work, and it's unseen work. 03:11.44 Alex And sometimes, of course, it's adversarial work to me. I've definitely had one or two or three blowups with people in this profession over the years. But by and large, I think it's fair to say that college sports media coverage, sports media coverage in general, without them, would not be nearly as informative as it is for the people who are consuming it. 03:30.19 SIDcast Yeah, I think that kind of goes to, to because, you you know, when i when I was working in athletics, we would get kids all the time, you know, they they worked as a student newspaper on campus and they would just DM the athletes directly. And then they have to be like, hey, you cannot do that. You have to, there's a certain channel that you have to do and and a certain way that you have to go. But yeah, yeah, I get it. um You know, what's what's your kind of relationship with them now? I mean, you you work in, you and a few others have created a product that, you know, basically, you know, 03:59.08 SIDcast not only just kind of highlights, you know, their, their athletic programs, but also, um you know, at times, you know, it's, it's can, it can be pretty bleak with some of these programs, but you know, what is, what is your relationship look like with them now when you're creating a a product that is just college football specific like that? 04:17.26 Alex So what we do at Split Zone Duo does not tend to require ton of cooperation from sports information offices because we've done a few credentialed events over the years where you know we show up at a game and obviously then you're going through a credentialing process, you're working with the sports information staff, and you rely on some level of cooperation. 04:25.32 SIDcast Hmm. 04:41.50 Alex But for the most part, I don't need a sports information director to bless what I'm doing in order to do it. 04:49.25 SIDcast Right. 04:50.12 Alex And that provides a lot of freedom, I think, but also freedom that you shouldn't abuse. You know, I i try not to say things on our podcast or in my writing. I write it a lot of different outlets as well that I wouldn't say to somebody's face and that I couldn't defend if I was forced to do it in front of the person that I was talking about. 05:11.32 Alex I think that the same rules of journalistic ethics that should apply to anybody in the field should also apply to podcasters, whether whether you call us journalists or not. And I know podcasts can kind of slide ah all up and down that spectrum of how much of them are entertainment, how much them are are true reportage. 05:26.53 SIDcast yeah 05:29.60 Alex But I think that it's a ah spot to be in where you're able to be independent, where you're able to be you know, maybe a bit more aggressive sometimes about following certain lines of of criticism and commentary than sometimes beat reporters can can engage in. Because ah if if you're relying completely on the Sports Information Office to facilitate the day-to-day of doing your job, there is a constant give and take there. 05:58.44 Alex And there are certain lines that, you know, you might not cross, even if they're not in any way inappropriate, 05:58.83 SIDcast yeah 06:04.16 Alex because you need to be able to maintain some degree of access in order to your job. 06:09.41 SIDcast Yeah. Do you guys, have you ever, and I know you said that you get you know credentialed with, with some other outlets as well, depending on whatever project that you're working on, but do you get as independent media, do you get some sort of, you know, a different attitude, you know, when you make requests as opposed to, you know, ah a legitimate, or I wouldn't say, but ah like a more legacy outlet. 06:25.13 Alex Yeah. 06:31.05 Alex Oh yeah, absolutely. um Yeah, I've been covering college football full-time for 10 years now or so, and I've seen different sides of this depending on where I've been working at the time. 06:37.58 SIDcast Hmm. 06:41.36 Alex i started my career at SB Nation, which is a digital outlet that was pretty young, but we had a great college football desk with 06:45.34 SIDcast yeah. Yeah. 06:48.87 Alex true reporters, guys like Stephen Godfrey, who I went ah went on to co-found Splits End Duo with, who had built some relationships. And so we were able to get into most places if we applied for a credential, and it wasn't a problem, but not to all places. 07:01.86 Alex And I think there are still some places to this day that probably wouldn't credential 07:03.35 SIDcast yeah 07:05.33 Alex an outlet like SB Nation, even the national website rather than one of the many team websites. And i have tried, I've applied for credentials on behalf of Split Zone Duo. I have gotten them at some places. At some places, I've known the sports information directors, and it's been very easy. 07:20.23 Alex But I do think there's a difference. ah When I'm doing my freelance writing work, and I i might be writing for The Ringer or for The Athletic or for Five 38 I did for a long time. I mean, there's so many, I have lost count of how many different places I've written for in the last five or six years as a freelancer. 07:41.61 Alex But you know, the ringer is a great example or or the athletic is a great example. 07:45.48 SIDcast Yeah. 07:45.87 Alex People are going to respond to your emails. so And if I need to go to an event and I need to, and I need to get a credential to an event, or if I'm looking for an interview, I'm going to have a much better chance of getting it. 07:57.23 Alex If I'm at a larger, and in some cases, more legacy mediality, even though those are both digital first publications that are only 10 years old or less, then I will if it's it's for a three-person or a two-person podcast that I operate independently. There's definitely a difference in who returns your calls and who does not. 08:17.86 SIDcast Yeah, I think I can only speak from it from from the side that I've been on of of credentialing people, you know, we always have the work. And what I found at my last spot, I was at Oakland University, or less SID spot, at least was at Oakland University before the agency side. 08:34.72 SIDcast And, you know, we were kind of coming across, you know, certain outlets that we we didn't know how to ah how to to categorize it was either, you know, television, radio written, you know, whatever. um And I think that we're definitely starting to get to an age of just content to where um i think, i think when you reference, you know, there, there's some, some places that just will just downright decline you or, or you know, pretty tough to break in. i I think we're, we need to come up on the edges of like being, being okay with independent media, different kinds of media coming in and covering, 09:11.26 SIDcast covering their teams. I mean, um you know, what do you say about those who who kind of still may be a little bit hesitant to let, um you know, an outlet like you guys or maybe maybe even another outlet kind of come in and and give, yes you know, some some props to their teams? 09:12.81 Alex yeah 09:27.46 Alex I think you need to be as a sports information office, discerning about what kind of independent media you're looking at and who the people are who are comprising that independent media. 09:37.82 Alex I would be very cautious too. I mean, right now, especially in an age where, uh, Elon Musk ruined Twitter and made it into a ah thing where anybody can buy a blue check mark and sell a degree of authenticity and sort of an official sheen that shouldn't be there. 09:54.14 Alex I understand why you'd be really cautious. I understand that doubly so. in a sports betting world. mean, I know I've talked with SIDs. I was talking just weeks ago with the sports information director at a Sunbelt football school about how ridiculous it's gotten with people people approaching athletes 10:09.48 SIDcast You have no idea. Yeah. 10:13.32 Alex sometimes in very hostile ways, sometimes in kind of disarming friendly ways, but obviously with nefarious intent to try to get gambling information or to harass athletes or coaches over how their performance affected gambling. So I i definitely understand the caution. 10:28.94 Alex And I think you have to be i think you have to be careful um about who you're letting into your your house if you're you're an SID. 10:33.53 SIDcast yeah 10:36.83 Alex But we're also in an age where a lot of independent media is comprised of people who have been doing these jobs for a while, oftentimes at legacy outlets, though I don't think that should be a prerequisite, who have demonstrated some professionalism, who have a track record of covering these things for a long time. 10:53.86 Alex And so, you know, if it's a case like our podcast, Splits End Duo, ah Richard Johnson and I have both been covering college football full time for a decade. you know, Richard's worked at d ESPN, he works he's worked at Sports Illustrated, he works at CBS Now. 11:05.01 Alex I've written for a million different outlets over the years. So, so Not every independent outlet or independent writer, reporter, podcaster, whatever is the same. 11:16.79 Alex And I think a one-size-fits-all approach just wouldn't make much sense for an SID's office. 11:21.90 SIDcast Yeah. Yeah. I think you kind of have to realize that not everybody is out to get you as you might think, but you know, to, to your points about the kind of the hostility of fans and, and there are some, I had, ah i have my one NBA player. I have, he plays for the magic now and he showed me his DMs one time. He was, he was, we were in the horizon league and and he was the only player that was averaging a double double. He was averaged like 20 and 10, I think is what he was averaging. 11:49.10 SIDcast And there was one day we were playing a really bad team in the league and he scored like 16 points. And he's like, I don't bet. So whatever whatever his you know stat line was to to hit was but something like 24 points and he got 16. 12:00.59 Alex Yeah. 12:05.32 SIDcast And somebody, I've shared this before, but somebody told him to to go off himself. you know like just I just cannot understand how when when you feel like And maybe even you feel like this, you know, with your podcast too, is when you speak a certain way or do a certain thing or position an opinion in a certain way, how angry people can get pretty quick. 12:30.93 Alex Yeah, ah doing things for public consumption, working for public consumption can be funny in that way and sometimes not funny in that way. 12:39.07 SIDcast Yeah. 12:41.20 Alex ah I think that when you work in media or you play sports, though these are two very different jobs, those are things that you have to accept. I've had a wise editor and friend in the industry who has said to me before that once you write something or you say something on a podcast, once it is published and out in the world, 13:00.75 Alex you lose the right to tell people how to interpret it. It's no longer yours. It's everyone's to do what they will with. And I think sports are are that times as a million. You know, i can, if I'm an offensive coordinator and I have a really good idea for a play call that I think makes strategic sense in the flow of the game, it makes all the sense in the world that I would call that play. But once you get tackled for a 16-yard loss or somebody fumbles... 13:28.96 Alex You don't get to tell people not to be upset about that, and that's all fair game. That's reasonable. I do think there's a responsibility, or there should be a responsibility just on on the part of people who are watching sports, to have a certain level of chill. 13:45.64 Alex And 9 in 10 people have that. 13:46.59 SIDcast Yeah. 13:47.51 Alex Unfortunately, 1 in 10 don't, and they make themselves everybody's problem. 13:53.13 SIDcast Yeah. I think another part of the coaching thing is, is we always, as I say, these, it depends on the coach. So I'm not going to blanket this to every single coach ever, but it's like, you know, did you hear about this person saying this about our team? Did you hear, did you read this you know article that came out about our team? What can we do about it? 14:10.65 SIDcast I think some of that, some of those types of of coaches and staffs need to kind of lax a little bit, but I was curious kind of what your, what your experience level is with that. 14:23.75 SIDcast And has anybody ever, you know, done anything in the past that, you know, I guess an SID kind of coming and saying like, hey, this is kind of what we heard or what, you know a coach is relaying to us is, um and what, when you face that situation, if ever, you know, what you've done about it. 14:44.04 Alex Yeah, I've a couple of situations in my career where I've gotten onto a pretty negative terms with an SID. The one that sticks out to me, I think that in the course of getting yelled out on the phone, I think I briefly, i think I kind of accidentally agreed to keep it off the record. 14:55.01 SIDcast Yeah. 15:03.35 Alex So I'll keep it somewhat vague though it's been many years and I'm, I think I'm fine with this person now, but I was once in college working on a story about a basketball player 15:07.39 SIDcast Sure. Yeah. 15:14.56 Alex and i I called his mother to find out about sort of his upbringing and to learn a little bit of backstory on the player. 15:22.79 SIDcast Yeah. 15:25.41 Alex There was nothing in university policy that said I could not do that. That wasn't written anywhere. I'd never been told that. And, you know, not that I think, that just because it was written down, if it had been, would have meant that absolutely I i had to clear it with the Sports Information Office. 15:38.62 SIDcast i right what 15:40.38 Alex I'm not sure that SID should get to determine who can talk to private citizens who are not in their athletic programs. But I went ahead and did this and then asked some follow-up questions that I didn't even think were especially adversarial. Again, i would reserve that right, but i didn't think they were. 15:56.60 Alex And got a phone call of a guy just huffing and puffing, just screaming at me. And I must have been a junior or a sophomore in college at the time and threatening specifically to yank credentials. 16:08.87 Alex You know, he wanted credit for being the sports information director who had let our outlet at the time onto press row and the press box. And he said that would be over. 16:17.16 SIDcast Yeah. 16:18.20 Alex And I'm happy about the way that we handled it. We just did it anyway. Like, he was he was like, you can't use those quotes. I was like, well, okay. And we just decided to do it anyway. And ultimately, I didn't hear much from him after the fact. 16:33.05 Alex And, you know, that was a case where I felt the SID was wrong. um I don't think that it's reasonable for sports information directors to... tell reporters who outside of their program they can talk to and who can't. 16:42.75 SIDcast you know 16:44.90 Alex I just don't think that's in their purview. And so I stood up on that one and learned a lesson or two about the way the business works. 16:54.35 SIDcast Yeah, but what what did he want? He was just like kind of controlling this pseudo sphere of influence that he thinks he thought he had. 17:00.12 Alex Yeah, i i i think what I think what he wanted was to... 17:01.49 SIDcast yeah 17:03.59 Alex was to dissuade other reporters on the beat from thinking they could just call people's family members without checking in with him. 17:13.37 SIDcast Okay, fair. 17:13.48 Alex i think that's I think that's what he wanted, but there was no policy saying that this wasn't okay. 17:14.16 SIDcast Yeah. 17:18.05 Alex And, you know, I certainly didn't agree to, in the course of covering the team, to not have interactions like that. i It's just called reporting. 17:29.26 Alex It's just called calling people and interviewing them. 17:30.08 SIDcast yeah 17:31.83 Alex And the player's mother is a I don't know, 40, 50, 60-year-old adult woman who can absolutely decide for herself whether she wants to talk about her son and But you know this was this was an SID who prided himself on on control and on dictating the way that the team was covered. And so he he shot a shot ah with but this request, this demand of me. And ah and we did not we did not accede to that. I think there have been other times where SIDs have come to me 18:05.21 Alex and been upset even where that SID has come to me and been upset about something. And I have just had to say, you know what? You have a fair point. You're right. ah One time the same SID called me and I said, look, we'll call him Kurt. That's not his name. 18:18.46 Alex I fucked up on this one. I'm going to correct it. We can agree that I'm wrong on this one and that I was annoying about it. I know it. I'll fix it. I'll apologize. Did that. 18:29.72 Alex Um, Just saying, some when you're wrong, just saying I'm wrong, I'm sorry, I do find it has a certain disarming effect on people in your industry. 18:37.50 SIDcast Yeah, absolutely. 18:38.16 Alex um 18:39.63 SIDcast Yeah. 18:39.58 Alex you know like if you just it's It's like umpires in baseball. When they say, I blew that call, what's the manager going to say? Like, yeah, I blew the call. um Once you've said it, once you've acknowledged it and you've said you'll try to do better, there's not a whole lot else to say, I think, at that point. 18:53.90 SIDcast Mm-hmm. 18:54.05 Alex So I would say that in in my fights with SIDs, of which there haven't been too many that have been too bad, I would say that I've probably been right 65% of the time and they've been right 35% of the time. 19:05.27 SIDcast Specific. Yeah, absolutely. 19:06.68 Alex Yeah. 19:06.87 SIDcast um Yeah, I think there's also, you know it gets really tricky for some people when it comes to student reporting as well. And unfortunately, i feel like there is a bit depending on the student reporting and and what you know about, you know, that that academic program in general. But, you know, I also think that there's a stigma a little bit sometimes, too, when it comes to student reporters, if you agree on that or not. 19:28.86 Alex I think so. And I think that in college, it is incumbent on SIDs, and I appreciate the ones who do this, to be generous with student reporters. And generous means a couple different things. 19:39.93 Alex I think it means including them in media opportunities, even high-profile ones, even going out of your way sometimes to do it. Obviously, not in as many people are reading The Diamondback at the University of Maryland as are reading The Washington Post. 19:53.87 Alex But I think you absolutely, as a representative of the school, should be generous with reporters, with your time, with the opportunities that you give them. And I think there's a degree of generosity that is called for in terms of how you deal with it when those student reporters make mistakes or when they do things that annoy you as ah as a sports information director. 20:09.83 SIDcast yeah 20:13.54 Alex If you are a sports information director for a college athletic program, you are sort of an educator. I know we don't think of it exactly that way. 20:20.26 SIDcast Mm-hmm. 20:21.75 Alex Like you're not giving lectures, you're not grading papers, but you are teaching college students how to deal with the media in the case of your players. And you are also, whether you're trying to or not, giving a lesson to the reporters of tomorrow in how to and how the business works and in and and how to cover teams. 20:39.58 Alex And that doesn't mean that you're not going to find yourselves at odds with a student reporter. In fact, I think that's that's part of learning too. But you know i I think you have to have a certain openness to dealing with student reporters if you are working in this business in college. 20:55.15 SIDcast Yeah, I think my policy was always like I wanted them there. you know what? and And it's actually interesting. you You said that kind of the apologetic thing when when you were in college to an SIV. 21:06.91 SIDcast But I have never met a student reporter who wasn't professional as hell. 21:11.80 Alex They tend to be, i think. 21:12.21 SIDcast You know? 21:12.82 Alex Yeah. Yeah. 21:14.14 SIDcast Yeah. 21:14.12 Alex I mean, look, it's not a glamorous thing to be doing on ah on a Saturday afternoon as a ah college journalist. You know, it's probably a lot more fun to go and slam a bush light off your head in ah in the backyard of a frat house before the game instead of to put on a nice shirt and slacks and walk into the press box and try to build your career. 21:27.66 SIDcast Yeah. 21:33.04 SIDcast Yeah. Kind of a shirt that you don't quite fit in, you know, and a tie that might be a little bit too long for you. 21:35.82 Alex Yes. Yes. 21:38.47 SIDcast But yeah, no, no, that's fun. But yeah, my policy was always I wanted them there. um You know, bring them on. You know, we had an open media day Whomever could come could come. um You know, we invited them not even just to basketball media day. We always did this for like soccers and everything. Like just make sure that they're there because you're right that you're. 21:59.14 SIDcast You're also teaching them, you know, what to kind of expect from a department, whether someone stays in Metro Detroit here or not. you know, the next place that they go, they may expect the same thing out of the SID that they may not get from you just in case you are, or they may have some sort of view of the cooperation of athletic department. If you don't represent, cause you're also as SIDs, we're also kind of almost a little bit figureheads on this and you need to be able to represent yourself a lot better and, and your programs and a lot better and your department, um, in a certain light. So yeah, being, being open is, uh, 22:36.55 SIDcast I have never tried to hide anything from our media at all. I actually loved it when our media came. But. 22:42.74 Alex Yeah, um typically the SIDs who try to hide things, I think much like the reporters who try to hide thing hide things, 22:50.67 SIDcast Mm hmm. 22:51.31 Alex are eventually gonna get caught. you know like i I think if you're bullshitting around as a reporter and you're you're not putting in you know the appropriate level of integrity, care, attention to detail and in your work, it's eventually gonna fall apart for you. 23:06.82 Alex And I think if you're ah sports information director who treats reporters like children, that's not gonna engender feelings of comity and cooperation between the press corps and the school. 23:16.33 SIDcast Right. 23:18.78 Alex And it's it's not going to work. I mean, maybe you can rule by fear or deceit for for a period of time. I think the same is probably true with the White House press secretary if you watch those briefings. 23:24.74 SIDcast right 23:28.83 Alex But eventually, people just don't respect you. And I think we've seen that in both politics and and sometimes in sports. 23:36.21 SIDcast Yeah, I think another thing that needs to to be a bit more, and I see i think the industry is getting better about this, but like just get get out from behind your desk and go to a fucking practice and just be there and just show up for these people too. I think being visible is also a ah point of emphasis. 23:54.78 Alex I agree. Yeah, I think meeting people, shaking hands, actually pressing the flesh is really important. And it's actually, I think it's important for reporters too. I i worry about this all the time. you know Most of my work that I do now because of my existence as a freelancer and the way we do our podcast at Split Zone Duo is done from home. 24:14.54 Alex I do most of it from, I'm sitting in my den right now at a desk in my den. This is where I watch most college football from. I still think it's important to get out to a handful of games every year whether they're local i live in los angeles or sometimes places that i might travel to when i'm home in pittsburgh i usually try to take in a pit game from the press box if it's during the fall because i just think it is important to a remind yourself How fortunate you are to get to do this and to to go out and reach out and touch it in person is a good way to do that. 24:46.82 Alex And because we can all go insane on our computers and being reminded that there are real people on the beat with you, facilitating all of this from a sports information office perspective is valuable to making sure that we don't completely lose touch with reality. 25:04.51 SIDcast Awesome. Well, Alex, i know we're going bump up against time here, but i just wanted you to create your perfect college football road trip for this season. Since you say you want to go out and get, get, get in some games, what does that look like for you? 25:12.00 Alex Yeah. 25:15.54 Alex So this year, don't yet know exactly where I'm going to wind up. There's a couple places that have been on my on my list for a while, stadiums that I've never seen a game at. 25:27.67 Alex I've never been to Auburn. Actually, never been to Auburn, period, for any reason. 25:29.94 SIDcast but Okay. 25:32.32 Alex And I have aspirations. I don't know if I'll be able to do it, but I hope to, to be able to go and see the Iron Bowl in person this year. think that's probably the number one college football football game that I have not been to that I would like to see in person. 25:45.11 Alex ah really want to get to Bloomington, Indiana, which I've heard is an incredible college town. i have a bunch of friends who went to Indiana. I've been to different parts of Indiana. been to Indy a bunch, been to Chicago, obviously not too far away, a bunch, but never been to Bloomington, Indiana. 25:59.89 Alex So I'd like to get there. So if I could find a way to get to Bloomington and Auburn, I'd feel like it was a successful college football season. 26:06.55 SIDcast I worked at Indiana for for quite a period of time. So I can tell you that it gets... I think that's actually where I met Godfrey one time. He doesn't remember this at all. But it was ah it was like when Homefield was doing the... 26:18.07 SIDcast What did they do? It was the 9-Windiana campaign. 26:20.58 Alex Sure, like a tailgate scene or something like that, yeah. 26:21.72 SIDcast Yeah. Yeah, i was at a tailgate, definitely. and And the tailgate lot was right next to my apartment where I survived on 5 for 5 Chef Boyardee's at the that time in my life. But yeah, absolutely. good It's just hard to kind of get to some of these places. 26:37.60 SIDcast Like Indy, obviously has the airport and you're still going drive half an hour, 45 minutes to get down to Bloomington. And that city is not built for game day at all. 26:47.97 Alex No, no, I've heard, 26:48.28 SIDcast Like, it's just yeah, one ways and narrow streets everywhere, but Yeah. Awesome place to be, especially now. But anyway, Alex Kirschner, thank you very much for coming on. We really do appreciate If anybody wanted to check out your show, check out you, check out the work. Where can they do that? 27:05.40 Alex ah Thank you for having me. This was a lot of fun. Really great idea for a podcast, and it's fun to talk about the way the business works. ah You can find Split Zone Duo wherever you find podcasts. 27:15.66 Alex We are a college football show that covers the entire sport. try to do it with that independent spirit that I was talking about and bring you inside interesting things that are happening all over the landscape. Find us wherever you find podcasts or at www.splitzoneduo.com. 27:33.22 SIDcast perfect Thank you, sir, for coming on the SIDcast. 27:36.00 Alex ah Thank you for having me on and sorry that I was a little bit late. Thank you for bearing with all of my scheduling problems today. 27:44.00 SIDcast ah no