Science For Sport (00:02.156)
Well Dave, it's fantastic to have you back on the podcast. Welcome along.

Dr Dave Hancock (00:06.19)
Thanks very much for having me back, pleasure.

Science For Sport (00:08.441)
It's been 18 months or so since we last spoke. for listeners that may be late to join the podcast, that may not have already heard that previous conversation, tell me a little bit about your background and introduce yourself to them.

Dr Dave Hancock (00:23.534)
I have been in professional sport for probably over 35 years now. I was a performance director for the New York Knicks in the NBA for seven years. I've been on the Nike Performance Board, done lots of things. I've been the head physio for Chelsea Football Club, Leeds United. I had 17 years in the Premier League and worked for the England national team, been to the World Cups, European Championships.

have a couple of degrees, doctorate. Yeah, so that's me.

Science For Sport (00:59.257)
You say that's you, but you're now based in the States as well, CEO of your own company. It's been a heck of a journey, hasn't it?

Dr Dave Hancock (01:06.614)
Yeah, so I now run a software company that looks at data for sports teams around the world.

called Apollo. I'm a co-founder originated from Prozone if any of those listeners remember that which is a tracking system and then basically took over the company about seven years and decided that was going to build our own ecosystem platform doing lots of really interesting things around AI and the use of AI around data for sports teams. Got a brilliant team based in

got a few offices now we've got an office just opened in Saudi Saudi Arabia UK and New York so yeah doing some interesting things with data for sure

Science For Sport (01:51.426)
onwards and upwards for sure. I know when we last spoke, you told us about this blind screen theory. You've been doing some work with Saquon Barkley, the running back for the Philadelphia Eagles. He's since gone on to win a Super Bowl and had a career year with them two seasons ago in the process as well. At the time, you said that whilst you were confident in it, there was still one or two things that you needed to be certain of. Well, from staying across your social media posts,

It appears to me that that has taken off in quite a big way. So bring us up to speed with where we are with

Dr Dave Hancock (02:26.602)
Yeah, so we actually built an AI model, almost like how my brain thinks around this, and the model has been training the outcomes. So now a team gets a full risk on all their players that have been screened, the player gets an individual risk and it gets an automatic.

breakdown of all the risks that they have within their body and a full exercise regime with videos showing them what they need to do to try and work on those areas. And now we've done probably 1600 screens. I've been really busy. I've been at some of the top teams in football. I've been in Spain, I've been in the UK, I've been in Germany, I've been in Italy. In fact, tomorrow I'm going to...

the winners of a very big competition here in the States, a basketball team. It's really taken off. And the feedback that we're getting from the practitioners and from people who using it is that it's sort of a game changer. And then what we've been doing is tracking the availability of those players who've been screened and mapping what injuries they have compared to what the screen said and talking to the practitioners on the ground, because it's an educational thing as well, about how

they're feeling that this screen is sort of benefiting them and giving them even 1 % advantage and there's lots of interest because it's obviously my 35 years and

sort of flipping the idea on its head about how we look at the movement and the quality of movement and the control of the body and it's something that I just don't think teams are doing around the datasets and and the things that they're using don't look at this. I'll give you an example.

Dr Dave Hancock (04:16.32)
So a lot of injuries occur around rotational planes. Okay, there's an element of rotation, whether you're accelerating or decelerating, know, an ACL might go or a hamstring might go or a groin might go, but there's an element of rotation on most sports. All the tests that we do.

don't include rotation. So if you use a vowed or a force frame or counter movement jump, there's not much rotation that occurs and you're only looking at the movement in one plane. So part of my screen is around rotational planes and the ability for the body to control segments to allow something else to move. it's really different from how we're taught in medicine.

and the more of these that I do, in fact I did one on Saturday, the more I'm like wow it's just showing me and then you start seeing patterns. So you know we really now get into a point where this thing is starting to expand and being a huge benefit for us as a company.

Science For Sport (05:21.656)
And to that extent, are we getting to a point now where our understanding of mechanics, of what we can do with sports science, the interpretation, in itself is evolving? I remember we spoke to Nicholas Vatanen, the head of sports science at FC Mitcheland a couple of months ago on here, and again what he's been doing with them and the success they've had, he explained it's because we weren't just literally taking the data and saying, well, it's a set interpretation, it's clad in stone. He was saying we're looking at it

And his whole philosophy was more about what do you do in a football sense in that one yard area? How do you control a ball? When you twist and turn, does it produce the results that you're wanting? And clearly what he's done there has yielded good results for them over the course of this season. And in terms of the work you're doing with the blind screen and the way, as you say, you're educating the teams, the athletes you're working with, is this transformational?

Science For Sport (06:28.427)
I've lost your sound Dave.

Dr Dave Hancock (07:04.396)
now. Sorry about that. You're gonna have to edit that.

Science For Sport (07:05.177)
I can, yep. No, no, no, it's good that we're recording and we're able to pick it up. Okay, you're back, so I'll repeat the question. In terms of what Nicholas Fattanen is doing at FC Mitcheland and the clients and athletes you're working with, you mentioned it being educated and it being educational. Is what we're seeing now proven to be transformational?

Dr Dave Hancock (07:13.432)
Yeah.

Dr Dave Hancock (07:28.81)
Yeah, I think with AI, the ability now of models to crunch a lot of numbers and give you outputs very instant is very the way that things are going. I still think that we are still trying to work out what data points are relevant or not relevant and models can do that.

But I also think there's still that element of what I call the subjective versus the objective. And therefore, we're not always putting the subjective into that model. And that for me is really the point of like, what does the coach think? So what's the data telling us, but what does the coach think? And if you can then overlay, and we've done this with a couple of teams where we've mic coaches up.

and we're basically recording what they're saying when they're coaching or when they've got a review of a player or review of a game or scouting review from their voice. We can take that in the AI crunch it and overlay it with the objective data. And I think that is the way forward on both from a performance perspective and from an injury perspective, injury prevention perspective. I don't think I haven't seen many teams do a lot of subjective objective information in. I think it's, it's useful.

everything's just been objective but AI is changing everything that we're gonna do or we are doing you know these models now are so fast and some of the things that I've seen my data science team build is just phenomenal.

Science For Sport (09:02.585)
And no doubt it'll be something that plays a role later this summer. I've already mentioned you're now based in the United States. For Northern America as a whole, it's a huge summer with the World Cup coming over there. Of course, it's been based, hosted by the US, Canada and Mexico. What's your experience across the four years that you worked with the England team preparing them for major tournaments? What are the key considerations that...

these teams will have to take into account going into a tournament of this nature.

Dr Dave Hancock (09:35.919)
Weather is definitely one. Travel will definitely be another. I think the England team are based themselves in Kansas, which is sort of a very good midwest point to go east and go west. In fact, my academy physio back in the day at Leeds United is now Steve Kemp, who's the performance director, who's a great guy. And I think they're really covering all bases.

I've actually hooked them up with someone to help them here in the US that I've worked with. So I know that they've been working with him. So I think that, you know,

there won't be any stone unturned in their preparation and what they do. And even when I was involved with them back in sort of 2008 to 2014, you know, it was quite thorough. They covered a lot of areas, both the facilities were top draw and obviously coming to the States, it's not like we're going to South Africa, right? The facilities where they'll be will be first class.

Science For Sport (10:36.854)
Yeah, you mentioned the weather. the group game is going to be played in Dallas, up there in New England at Foxborough, the home of the New England Patriots, and then in New Jersey. Dallas, wouldn't imagine, would be too much of an issue because they've got a roof which they'll close and it'll be air conditioned. But in New Jersey and in New England, June, July time, the weather is going to be a factor, isn't it? What can they expect?

Dr Dave Hancock (10:59.959)
It'll probably be in the 90s. So whether they're playing in the afternoon or playing the evening, but I'm pretty certain that they will adapt to that when they're in their training and likewise the...

transfers from, as I said, Kansas, you're probably only looking at an hour's difference coming into the East Coast. So it's not that there's a huge travel amount, it's not like you're going from East Coast to West Coast, which is three hours. And I'm sure they'll come out early in the climate ties and go into camp early. So I think they'll be really well prepared. The obviously key is looking at what the players have been doing in their club seasons. You know, how many games, how much recovery, what each player needs. mean, keeping them fit and healthy and fresh is going to be

be like the number one element that...

that's the thing that everyone's going to be different because you're going to have players that are playing deep into Champions League. So you've got players who are playing for Arsenal, players that are playing for Manchester City. So you've got FA Cup finals, you've got Champions League. That's a lot of games, and there's an accumulation of that where you've got other players that might be from Manchester United, which aren't in the Champions League and haven't gone deep into cup competitions. So I'm sure that they'll have all of those statistics and all of that per player.

they'll be working out with the coaching staff exactly what needs to be done for each individual. This is becoming now a much more individualised, personalised approach as well as a team. And all of those things count to keep a player fit and healthy for major competition.

Science For Sport (12:31.48)
Well to that end then, share if you can some of your experience, particularly I guess on the World Cup in 2010 in South Africa, because like you say, you've got to keep them fresh, I guess. As you've pointed out, nutrition is key, it's absolutely pivotal over a course tournament like this, but there'll be sleep patterns as well, there'll be different training regimes, intensity on different days. There's a lot to take into account when you've got a squad of what, 26, 27 players?

Dr Dave Hancock (12:58.371)
Yeah, so things like all of their bloods, macros, micros will be measured. Things like their recovery protocols will be put into place. So they'll be.

you know, lots of different recovery protocols put travel, I said, accumulation, time on feet, you know, what they've done. They will be taking information from the clubs. So all of their GPS data sleep can be measured. So I'm sure that they will either use a whoop or an aura ring. And they're the sort of things that we already bring into Apollo. So we're used to looking at REM and non-REM versus performance metrics. So all these things around data now can be used. You can also look at

heart rate variability so they can look at things like is the person where is the person on that for fatigue level but then also mental so just my own experiences with Capello we went up into Austria for a three-week training cramp in Austria and

Obviously Capello had had great success with Real Madrid and the other teams that he worked with going to a camp, but there wasn't much for us to do in that camp. So there was a golf course, but that was it. So then there's the mental side of this, right? So it's being able to, it sounds daft, but really, you know, if you've got a plan that's gone through a hell of a long season.

mentally they need to refresh and then all of a sudden you're asking them to go into another competition, know, mentally it's really difficult. So there's, for me, the mental side of this is probably the biggest thing that, you know, I think that teams should be looking at is like, how do we stimulate them?

Dr Dave Hancock (14:45.635)
whether it's basically evenings out, giving them the freedom to go into Kansas, to go to the movies, go put on events, bring in some speakers. All this now is really taking point of how you prep a team. And if you look at, for instance, the Ryder Cup team, you look at what they've gone through to be successful. There are elements of this where they bring external speakers in, motivational speakers, talk about different things, lots of different things like games rooms.

that we had that in South Africa. We did a quiz night. I mean there's different things to stimulate that I'm sure that they'll be putting into play but super important because for me psychology and the mental side of the game is probably the one of the most important. If you can be physically fresh but mentally if you're not fresh you're not going to get the performance.

Science For Sport (15:38.201)
Well, and on that note, to what extent, I wonder, is this something of a venture into the unknown? Because this is the biggest World Cup tournament we've ever had. It's been expanded to 48 teams. If you go all the way from first game to last game, there's 104 matches across the course of the tournament. It is 39 days long, and that doesn't include any pre-tournament camp you might be involved in. Logistically, is that an issue for the support staff and medical team around these international camps?

Dr Dave Hancock (16:07.863)
I don't think from a logistics point of view, I don't think it is, know, they've put on private jets that will take the team, they'll basically everything will be to the point. It's the bit that happens after they train. It's the bit that happens after they have a massage. It's the bit that you, you know, they're in the same place for two or three weeks.

So how are we stimulating, how are we giving them options, how are we doing things to just sort of take their mind away from the pressure of having a long season, trying to recover physically and mentally, but then how to then prep them to recover in between games through a tournament of that length.

That for me is probably the most important part and that's the difficult part because every individual is slightly different, right? They want to have different simulations. People want to be stimulated in different ways. Some like to just relax and do nothing. Some like to actually get out and go out. So I'm sure that they'll have options and I'm sure that they'll have a psychologist that's basically working with a team to recommend those to the coach and the coaching staff. What I understand,

I've never worked with the manager of England but when he was at Chelsea a lot of my colleagues worked with him and said that he was brilliant at bringing people together. He used to do team and staff barbecues at his house. I mean he was really top drawer. It showed interest. I heard a story about him with a colleague of mine that one night he was at the training ground and the colleague was working on a project for an exam he was taking to do with our job and he came in the office and said what are doing?

and sat down with him and said show me what you're learning show me what you're doing so from a personal point of view I've heard that the manager is you know from that perspective is really good.

Science For Sport (18:02.482)
let's be honest, if you're based in Kansas and you like barbecue, there aren't many better places to be, is there?

Dr Dave Hancock (18:06.8)
No it's not. I hope they like brisket.

Science For Sport (18:13.496)
Well, indeed, yes. They will have their choice in KC without a doubt. OK then, just reflecting once more on your experience, obviously you did Euro 2012 as well. Learning from past experiences is always key moving forward. What were your key learnings from those two experiences and trips in Camp South Africa and then I believe it was, was it Poland and the Ukraine for you? Yeah.

Dr Dave Hancock (18:40.548)
Poland, Ukraine, yeah. Well, obviously, Boredom was one, for sure. And obviously, the teams are different, players are different now, but sort of that interaction of all of the players together, that we're in this together.

you found still, you know, back then that there was still very much like, here's the Man United camp and here's the Chelsea camp and here's the Liverpool camp and, you know, and here's the guys from Villa. That, when you're playing international football, that can't be, you know, and everyone has sort of got to become together to see the common goal. And I'm sure that they will be working at that. The view is, is at this level, you have the real talent to win.

Right? And we've nearly won, but we haven't won. So why haven't we won? We've had the talent, but we haven't won. So what is it that we need to do to win? It's that 1 % ours.

So, you know, bringing these people together and I'm sure all the staff, the performance staff, the medical staff, the coaching staff, the recruitment staff, the analysts that are involved, you know, it's a much bigger moving ship now than what it was when I worked with England. I'm sure that they will have all those covered. But for me, it's that one common goal.

And that comes from within the players, so the senior players, it comes from the management and the manager, and it comes from then the support staff that you're all on that one pace, basically just to win. And I would be reflecting back on like, why didn't we win? Why didn't we win under Gareth? What was it? Okay. What have the women done to win that we haven't done? What is it? And then look at other sports, you know, look at other experiences of people that have won.

Dr Dave Hancock (20:35.022)
and what are the things that you can learn from other sports. That's what I would do, is to bring that on board to create that sort of direction. And I think...

Science For Sport (20:43.648)
And no doubt Thomas Tuchel and the team are looking for every 1 % they can get hold of. Just finally, before I let you go Dave, you've spoken a lot about keeping the players fresh, keeping them mentally alert. What do you do as part of the support staff, the medical team, over an elongated period like this? Because it's important that your enthusiasm doesn't wane as well, isn't it? And that can be tough.

Dr Dave Hancock (20:47.967)
I'm sure.

Dr Dave Hancock (21:08.184)
Yeah, it can be. I think you have to have great people within the organization, right? You have to know what your job is, stay in your lane, but you have to have a collective. And likewise, you have to give them the staff mental time off. You have to organize things within your staff, whether that's a meal out. For instance, in Poland, they took me out for my birthday. My birthday was in June. We went out.

and we had a really good type team. In fact, one of the guys that I worked with in the England national team who worked for Manchester City, I spoke to this morning, right? So the togetherness within the staff and not having any sort of egos, I always say leave your ego at the door, is really, really, really important. And someone's got to drive that from within and that's got to be the togetherness because then that rubs off on the players.

Right? Is that everyone singing from the same hymn shit all the time, no matter whether you win or lose. And then looking at scenarios, you know, if you lose the first game or draw the first game, is that like, this is how we're gonna react. This is what we're gonna do. Okay?

And obviously that comes from Tuchel and his staff, but it's also got to come from within the support team, right? You're there for one common goal. And I think that they should be probably prepping for that from an internal perspective prior to just turning up and going to do the World Cup. But a lot of these people have worked together over the years and most of them now are all full time for the FA anyway. So they know each other. When I did it, I was a performance director at the Knicks and you had other people working for clubs. So they didn't have that full

time staff so it's slightly different scenario now to what it was back then.

Science For Sport (22:53.76)
And no doubt everybody around the England camp will be hoping that it's a winning formula for them this time around. But it's a long tournament for sure. There'll be different conditions, different environments they'll have to endure. Listen, Dave, we really appreciate your time. It's been another fascinating discussion. And for our listeners who are intrigued by what you've told them about the progress of the blind screen, where can they find out more? Where can they keep across everything that you're doing on social media?

Dr Dave Hancock (23:20.752)
So obviously I'm on LinkedIn Dave Hancock the website is www.apollov2.com and they can leave messages and contact us through the website

Science For Sport (23:33.27)
Will you be across the World Cup yourself this year?

Dr Dave Hancock (23:35.66)
I am, in fact, Paul Clements, who's the assistant manager of Brazil. I actually went to school with Paul. So I'm going to go to one of their games, probably the Scotland game, because I've got the coach I used to work with, Steve, which is not a bad game to go to. So I'm sure Paul's going to help me get some tickets, but I'm going to go and hang out with them for a little bit and see how they're doing things. So, then if England do progress, I'm sure that I'll be contacting Steve Kent and asking him if I can pop them

and say hello, but I wish them all the very best. Fingers crossed that this is the year.

Science For Sport (24:10.168)
Yeah, absolutely, 100%. And I'm sure that the atmosphere around that Brazil-Scotland game will be something a bit special as well. So do enjoy that. Once again, thanks for your time, Dave.

Dr Dave Hancock (24:19.898)
Pleasure, thanks very much.